Russian troops, tanks, and artillery have crossed into Ukraine - NATO Commander

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30025138

Nato officials have seen Russian military equipment and Russian combat troops entering Ukraine this week, its top commander says.

"Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian air defence systems and Russian combat troops" were sighted, US Gen Philip Breedlove said.

Russia's defence ministry denied that its troops were in eastern Ukraine to help pro-Russian separatists there.

However, the rebels have admitted being helped by "volunteers" from Russia.

The United Nations Security Council is convening an emergency session later on Wednesday to discuss the reported sightings.

Heavy artillery fire rocked the east Ukrainian city of Donetsk, the industrial hub held by pro-Russian separatist rebels, on Wednesday morning.

It was unclear whether the fire came from besieging government forces or the rebels themselves, or both.

There were also reports of fighting near the rebel-held city of Luhansk. One Ukrainian soldier was killed and another injured north of Luhansk, when rebels fired on government positions near the village of Schastya, Ukrainian security forces said.

Grey line
Analysis: Jonathan Marcus, BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent
Events in Ukraine seem to be turning full circle.

Back in August, Nato was warning about the deployment of Russian artillery batteries inside Ukraine, the supply of Russian military equipment to the rebel forces and the build-up of further Russian combat units at the Ukrainian frontier.

Since then many of these units have been withdrawn.

But now with tensions renewed, Nato's Supreme Commander in Europe General Philip Breedlove has confirmed that over the past two days, Nato has seen columns of Russian armour, artillery and crucially - combat troops - entering Ukraine.

The question now is whether this is just a re-run of events in the summer or does a more significant clash beckon, perhaps one where the Kremlin may decide - in its terms - to teach the Ukrainians a military lesson.

General Breedlove also confirmed that Nato believes Russia is deploying nuclear-capable weapons to Crimea - a reference to reports that Russia is deploying short-range Iskander ballistic missiles there that could potentially be equipped with nuclear warheads.

Grey line
Unmarked convoys
The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) has reported seeing unmarked convoys in the region in recent days.

Gen Breedlove, talking to reporters on a visit to Bulgaria, was asked about the purpose of the alleged Russian troop deployment.

He replied: "As to their intent, I'm not sure. My strategic team believes that there is a possibility that, as you know, this pocket of separatist Russian-backed forces and Russian forces in the east of Ukraine - it's not a very contiguous pocket. There are lines of communications that are interrupted. There are airports that are not held by the Russian-backed forces etc.

"And so it is our first guess that these forces will go in to make this a more contiguous, more whole and capable pocket of land in order to then hold on to it long term."

Gen Breedlove did not specify how many troops, vehicles or weapons were seen. A Nato official confirmed to the BBC that Nato "assessed" that the equipment and troops were Russian in origin.

Smoke rises near the traffic control tower of the Sergey Prokofiev International Airport damaged by shelling during fighting between pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces, in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, on 12 November 2014.
The main city in Ukraine's east, Donetsk, has seen its heaviest shelling in weeks
Russian defence official Maj-Gen Igor Konashenkov said "there was and is no evidence" to support Gen Breedlove's claims.

Russia has consistently denied sending troops and equipment to support the rebels fighting in eastern Ukraine.

Preparations
Separately, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said that the country's long-range aircraft would go on patrol flights over the Arctic Ocean to the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico.

He said that the current situation required Russia to restart the flights, which were reduced at the end of the Cold War.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's defence minister has said that government forces are redeploying in preparation for a possible new offensive by pro-Russian separatist rebels.

Armed people and military trucks are seen near a checkpoint outside a building on the territory controlled by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic in Donetsk,
A Reuters reporter captured armed men and military vehicles near a checkpoint in Donetsk on Wednesday
"The main task I see is to prepare for combat operations. We are doing this, we are readying our reserves," Stepan Poltorak told a government meeting.

More than 4,000 people have died since government forces moved in April to put down an armed insurrection by the rebels in the two regions, which border Russia.

A fragile ceasefire was agreed in Minsk on 5 September, although hundreds of people have been killed since then.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Tuesday her government was "not satisfied" with the progress in implementing the Minsk agreement, but added that there were no plans at present for further economic sanctions against Russia over its involvement in Ukraine.

"Further economic sanctions are not planned at the moment, we are focusing on the winter and the humanitarian situation there and how to get a real ceasefire," she said.

The OSCE said earlier that the conflict could get worse.

"The level of violence in eastern Ukraine and the risk of further escalation remain high and are rising," OSCE representative Michael Bociurkiw told reporters in Kiev.

-W6as8oVcuM

[The Reckoning]

lol russia. Thanks for OPEC lowering our gas prices!

[Cry Havoc]

In b4 m>s chiming in "wut has russia done in ukraine you can't prove anything :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry"

:lmao

[m>s]

Good luck putin

[Cry Havoc]

Good luck putin

:lmao :lmao

[Infinite_limit]

What took Putin so long? West already did all they could short of armed retaliation. So the West gonna send in troops or finally STFU? Try and bully Putin and see what it results in

[TDMVPDPOY]

clown came to australia for g20 summit with 4 warships....

yet the leader of this country who was running his mouth about putin over the malaysian mh70 and ukraine war is nowhere to be seen

[RandomGuy]

What took Putin so long? West already did all they could short of armed retaliation. So the West gonna send in troops or finally STFU? Try and bully Putin and see what it results in

It results in a 50% slide in the value of the ruble vs. the dollar in a year, and double digit inflation in a country that will quite possibly see a recession next year.

Russians haven't been really blaming Putin yet, but given another year of capital flight, and the inability of their oil infrastructure to maintain itself, this will end up costing Russia plenty.

We also get:

Russian bomber patrols to reach Gulf of Mexico
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-bomber-patrols-reach-gulf-mexico-140508309.html

[Infinite_limit]

It results in a 50% slide in the value of the ruble vs. the dollar in a year, and double digit inflation in a country that will quite possibly see a recession next year.

Russians haven't been really blaming Putin yet, but given another year of capital flight, and the inability of their oil infrastructure to maintain itself, this will end up costing Russia plenty.

We also get:

Russian bomber patrols to reach Gulf of Mexico
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-bomber-patrols-reach-gulf-mexico-140508309.html
That happened regardless of this threads event. USA already successfully forced the decline of every market: as the global currency when everyone loses, America loses the least. Russia doing nothing at this point would have been classic behavior of a battered woman. I hope Russia forces Europe to send in trips and as a European I hope those forces get their ass handed to them to teach Europe a lesson as to who they are siding with.

Great news that Russia is sending trips to Americas backyard. After America started meddling in Russia sphere. Russia learned it's lesson from the Cuban Missile Crisis, they shouldn't have budged.

Either way Russia is being economically punished by Nato/US/Europe. Might as well do what they have been slandered by US as doing all along

[m>s]

I'm thinking about joining the russian military and doing 3 years in exchange for citizenship

[xeromass]

That happened regardless of this threads event. USA already successfully forced the decline of every market: as the global currency when everyone loses, America loses the least. Russia doing nothing at this point would have been classic behavior of a battered woman. I hope Russia forces Europe to send in trips and as a European I hope those forces get their ass handed to them to teach Europe a lesson as to who they are siding with.

Great news that Russia is sending trips to Americas backyard. After America started meddling in Russia sphere. Russia learned it's lesson from the Cuban Missile Crisis, they shouldn't have budged.

Either way Russia is being economically punished by Nato/US/Europe. Might as well do what they have been slandered by US as doing all along


Fuck your spheres of influence and all that neo-colonialist bullshit.

Russia lost it's empire at the end of cold war just like Austria (and Hungary) did after WWI and GB sometime after WWII. Sooner Russians understand that better it is for all of us.

Ukraine should be free to associate with whomever they like.

/rant over

[Infinite_limit]

Fuck your spheres of influence and all that neo-colonialist bullshit.

Russia lost it's empire at the end of cold war just like Austria (and Hungary) did after WWI and GB sometime after WWII. Sooner Russians understand that better it is for all of us.

Ukraine should be free to associate with whomever they like.

/rant over
What is your opinion of USA funding the destabilization of Russias neighbor?

[pgardn]

What is your opinion of USA funding the destabilization of Russias neighbor?

What is your opinion of Russia destabilizing its neighbor?

[pgardn]

I'm thinking about joining the russian military and doing 3 years in exchange for citizenship

Please do it.
And don't come whimpering back home when they find out you are a Nazi.

[z0sa]

Also heard they are resuming strategic bomber routes in the Gulf of Mexico. Not a new thing by any means, but a definite throwback to cold war era style politics.

Hopefully Obama doesn't look like a giant puss in the face of this new aggression. Not holding my breath though.

[Infinite_limit]

Also heard they are resuming strategic bomber routes in the Gulf of Mexico. Not a new thing by any means, but a definite throwback to cold war era style politics.

Hopefully Obama doesn't look like a giant puss in the face of this new aggression. Not holding my breath though.
Kinda like when American missile cruiser entered the Black Sea recently?

You Americans are comical. Whenever the scales are equaled it's "throwback to cold war era style politics".

[Infinite_limit]

What is your opinion of Russia destabilizing its neighbor?
Their region, their business.

[pgardn]

Their region, their business.

Europe's region, our business.
Since WW II.

[Infinite_limit]

Europe's region, our business.
Since WW II.
US played baseball while War raged in Europe.

[pgardn]

US played baseball while War raged in Europe.

Yep.

And the U.S. still turned the tide. And then stopped the Soviets from gulping up Europe.
Thats what a stable Democracy with a large population and resources can do.
Something that totally passed by the Soviets, who crashed their economy, and now want to have another go at it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They are asking to be a NATO state. Not our business? It's like the people around here want to return to the 1910's mode of thinking.

[Infinite_limit]

Yep.

And the U.S. still turned the tide. And then stopped the Soviets from gulping up Europe.
Thats what a stable Democracy with a large population and resources can do.
Something that totally passed by the Soviets, who crashed their economy, and now want to have another go at it.
Nazis were retreating before US stepped foot in Europe

LOL @ history taught in America

[Infinite_limit]

Gotta tip your hat to the Russians standing up to the bully. Enough powerful friends to stop from being pressured like Iran, enough military power to avoid being invaded like Iraq.

[pgardn]

Nazis were retreating before US stepped foot in Europe

LOL @ history taught in America

Russians did not have any trouble with Japan because US got involved after Pearl Harbor.
Soviets pulled troops for eastern campaign because of this.
Where did you learn history, did you forget the Pacific campaign?
Did you forget Japan?

[pgardn]

Gotta tip your hat to the Russians standing up to the bully. Enough powerful friends to stop from being pressured like Iran, enough military power to avoid being invaded like Iraq.

The only bully the Russians need to worry about lies within their own country.
So many resources just squandered because of inept corrupt political class.
Cant even feed themselves with all that farmland, a true pity and a guide on how to mismanage a country and keep people poor and stupid.

[Infinite_limit]

The only bully the Russians need to worry about lies within their own country.
So many resources just squandered because of inept corrupt political class.
Cant even feed themselves with all that farmland, a true pity and a guide on how to mismanage a country and keep people poor and stupid.

How many nations has Russia invaded in the past 25 years? (USA - Iraq I, Iraq II & Afghanistan)
How many governments has Russia destabilized in North America? (USA - Ukraine & Yugoslavia)



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LtUvvw7DpE0/TrVAeq1WT5I/AAAAAAAABWM/0HMxZNdy2co/s1600/America%2527s%2BPoor.PNG

[pgardn]

How many nations has Russia invaded in the past 25 years? (USA - Iraq I, Iraq II & Afghanistan)
How many governments has Russia destabilized in North America? (USA - Ukraine & Yugoslavia)



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LtUvvw7DpE0/TrVAeq1WT5I/AAAAAAAABWM/0HMxZNdy2co/s1600/America%2527s%2BPoor.PNG


We are far, far from perfect. But at least we can discuss it and make maps like the one above without having Government officials raid our home. This site even allows Nazis and racists like yourself to vent and get history wrong.

So you made it 25 to forget about Afghanistan, cool. Yes Soviets at that time so it does not count, funny stuff.

[z0sa]

Kinda like when American missile cruiser entered the Black Sea recently?

You Americans are comical. Whenever the scales are equaled it's "throwback to cold war era style politics".

False equivalence. Regardless of what America has been doing in the Black Sea, Russia hasn't flown these types of missions in a quarter of a century. Thus, it is quite accurate stating this is a throwback to cold war era style politics (for them, in case it wasn't abundantly clear whom I was speaking about).

Your assumptions based on zero evidence and blanket generalizations are beyond comical.

[Infinite_limit]

False equivalence. Regardless of what America has been doing in the Black Sea, Russia hasn't flown these types of missions in a quarter of a century. Thus, it is quite accurate stating this is a throwback to cold war era style politics (for them, in case it wasn't abundantly clear whom I was speaking about).

Your assumptions based on zero evidence and blanket generalizations are beyond comical.
Well this is the new Russia, so get used to it.

[z0sa]

Hardly new though, is it?

[Infinite_limit]

Hardly new though, is it?
They stepped down in the early 1960's, don't expect the same this time around.

[pgardn]

Well this is the new Russia, so get used to it.

This new Russia is hell bent on suffering.
But that's always been sort of a cultural thing. Get led by corrupt zealots, starve and suffer.
So here we go yet again Mother Russia, time to suffer again. Start that sad majestic music you do so well.

[Infinite_limit]

This new Russia is hell bent on suffering.
But that's always been sort of a cultural thing. Get led by corrupt zealots, starve and suffer.
So here we go yet again Mother Russia, time to suffer again. Start that sad majestic music you do so well.
Russians aren't middle easteners or asians. They won't sit back and be bullied.

Suffer like Detroit?

[z0sa]

They stepped down in the early 1960's, don't expect the same this time around.

What, you think Russia plans on engaging in their own mutually assured destruction?

[pgardn]

Russians aren't middle easteners or asians. They won't sit back and be bullied.

Suffer like Detroit?

Like Detroit?

No, it's gonna be a lot worse than that. It already is. Russia just does not publicize it, we do. The Self critical nature of our way makes us strong. It's hard for some to understand that live their lives under the boot. You don't really understand this country or Russia.

The suffering is self inflicted. So good deal, Russia won't be bullied, it just decays and ferments from within. So Russia lashes out, it's a common theme. So we sit back and note the stench arising from a large dead carcass that could be so much better.

[Infinite_limit]

What, you think Russia plans on engaging in their own mutually assured destruction?
They are simply taking a page out of the American playbook. You think America is ready to go to War with blood thirsty Russia while already involved in 2 foreign Wars (for the past Decade)?

USA will have to sit back and STFU just like they currently are.

[Infinite_limit]

Like Detroit?

No, it's gonna be a lot worse than that. It already is. Russia just does not publicize it, we do. The Self critical nature of our way makes us strong. It's hard for some to understand that live their lives under the boot. You don't really understand this country or Russia.

The suffering is self inflicted. So good deal, Russia won't be bullied, it just decays and ferments from within. So Russia lashes out, it's a common theme. So we sit back and note the stench arising from a large dead carcass that could be so much better.
When is the last time you were in Russia? My best friends parents visited 3 months ago.

Russia is blood thirsty after 2 decades of no War and fully united, something you cannot say about the USA. Decaying and fermenting from within.....so now you are blasting America?

[pgardn]

They are simply taking a page out of the American playbook. You think America is ready to go to War with blood thirsty Russia while already involved in 2 foreign Wars (for the past Decade)?

USA will have to sit back and STFU just like they currently are.

We don't need to go to war. Russia rots from within. You don't see this? Where are you from? You are so caught up in this mighty Russian bear that is mortally wounded. Why do you engage in this macho shit that so misses the big picture?

[Infinite_limit]

We don't need to go to war. Russia rots from within. You don't see this? Where are you from? You are so caught up in this mighty Russian bear that is mortally wounded. Why do you engage in this macho shit that so misses the big picture?
Rots from within is the current day definition of America. I've seen the American eroding first hand, have you seen Russian eroding in person?

[pgardn]

When is the last time you were in Russia? My best friends parents visited 3 months ago.

Russia is blood thirsty after 2 decades of no War and fully united, something you cannot say about the USA. Decaying and fermenting from within.....so now you are blasting America?

Yes America. The world bank. THE country that is best trusted with money. Because it's a democracy not led by a leader that can just decide an oil company needs to go and have his government swallow it. So how many Russian treasury bills do you own? What Russian backed securities do you own?

You just don't get it. The average Russian is dirt poor compared to the average American. Your friends are stuck in an absurdly corrupt country that can't even get their major resource out of the ground efficiently.

How many American Brides are streaming into Russia?

[z0sa]

They are simply taking a page out of the American playbook. You think America is ready to go to War with blood thirsty Russia while already involved in 2 foreign Wars (for the past Decade)?

USA will have to sit back and STFU just like they currently are.

Russia isn't nearly as blood thirsty (or rich) as the USA ... as our 2 decade long wars exemplifies.

Russia is grandstanding, not much else. They want the Ukraine and they're hoping they can bully EU/US into letting them have it in some tangible way, shape, or form. Not much else going on here.

[pgardn]

Rots from within is the current day definition of America. I've seen the American eroding first hand, have you seen Russian eroding in person?

Yes.

In Moscow.
On an Aeroflot flight that had to stop in Moscow and get me a hotel room for God knows what reason. A hotel room and food that was absolutely pitiful with the hardest crusted over bread... I really feel sorry for those people. Glad I was able to get out of there in only 2 days and resume my original way back to the states. I had to take Aeroflot, that was a mistake. I have already written about this. My Uncle is over there all the time. He hates/loves it.

Where are you from?

[Infinite_limit]

Yes.

In Moscow.
On an Aeroflot flight that had to stop in Moscow and get me a hotel room for God knows what reason. A hotel room and food that was absolutely pitiful with the hardest crusted over bread... I really feel sorry for those people. Glad I was able to get out of there in only 2 days and resume my original way back to the states. I had to take Aeroflot, that was a mistake. I have already written about this. My Uncle is over there all the time. He hates/loves it.

Where are you from?
I currently live in minority filled San Diego aka the finest city in America

[Infinite_limit]

Russia isn't nearly as blood thirsty (or rich) as the USA ... as our 2 decade long wars exemplifies.

Russia is grandstanding, not much else. They want the Ukraine and they're hoping they can bully EU/US into letting them have it in some tangible way, shape, or form. Not much else going on here.
The end game is further hurting American global reputation. If this was about Ukraine, he would have taken it 5 months ago

[z0sa]

The end game is further hurting American global reputation. If Putin wanted Ukraine, he would have taken it 5 months ago

If Putin straight up invaded the Ukraine, there would be a war on his hands he can't afford. He'd rather take it subtly, as it's much cheaper.

[Infinite_limit]

If Putin straight up invaded the Ukraine, there would be a war on his hands he can't afford. He'd rather take it subtly, as it's much cheaper.
War by who? Ukraine isn't Nato

[z0sa]

War by who? Ukraine isn't Nato

Neither was afghanistan or iraq.

[pgardn]

I currently live in minority filled San Diego aka the finest city in America

OMG...

Go live in Moscow for a year and come back. I can tell you that Russians will make you hate dark skinned people even more. I watched a guy get detained and thoroughly questioned because he was darker. I think they were suspicious he was a Chechnyan or something. But they hate blacks more than you as a general rule. So you might fit that, but you won't be able to stand the weather, food, and dreariness.

[Infinite_limit]

Neither was afghanistan or iraq.
Come on, you can't even compare Afghan or Iraq to Iran.

[Infinite_limit]

OMG...

Go live in Moscow for a year and come back. I can tell you that Russians will make you hate dark skinned people even more. I watched a guy get detained and thoroughly questioned because he was darker. I think they were suspicious he was a Chechnyan or something. But they hate blacks more than you as a general rule. So you might fit that, but you won't be able to stand the weather, food, and dreariness.
The language barrier is too much to overcome at the moment. I'm already studying Deutsch

[z0sa]

The point I was making is Russia doesn't have the money to forcefully occupy a state as large and rebellious as the Ukraine. As soon as they started handing out atrocities on civilians as a matter of form (which WOULD happen), NATO would be all over it like flies on shit while the western MIC rubbed their hands together and thanked Putin for the all the money he inadvertently lined their pockets with.

[Infinite_limit]

The point I was making is Russia doesn't have the money to forcefully occupy a state as large and rebellious as the Ukraine. As soon as they started handing out atrocities on civilians as a matter of form (which WOULD happen), NATO would be all over it like flies on shit while the western MIC rubbed their hands together and thanked Putin for the all the money he inadvertently lined their pockets with.
I agree. There was discussion of why doesn't Poland land grab the Western part of Ukraine, some former Polish land. The general agreement is who would want to undertake all those hungry mouths? I don't imagine Russia wanting to either

[pgardn]

War by who? Ukraine isn't Nato

You don't think the US and Europe will fund a resistance?
He wants it in a Crimean way. Even then, it's not in Russia's economic interest or long term health.

They have already made Europe look elsewhere for long term hydrocarbon needs which was absolutely stupid. Then the Chinese come in and just rape them on Gas deals because Europe is pulling back. It's madness.

[Infinite_limit]

You don't think the US and Europe will fund a resistance?
He wants it in a Crimean way. Even then, it's not in Russia's economic interest or long term health.

They have already made Europe look elsewhere for long term hydrocarbon needs which was absolutely stupid. Then the Chinese come in and just rape them on Gas deals because Europe is pulling back. It's madness.
Don't see how Putin had any other choice on Ukraine. If Neo-Nazis were being trained in Puerto Rico, Obama would do the same

[xeromass]

What is your opinion of USA funding the destabilization of Russias neighbor?

If you want to imply that revolution wouldn't happen without USA support you're wrong. Critical mass of people was simply fed up with corruption and low living standards. What remains to be seen is if they will make at least a half-serious state out of Ukraine or they simply plan to change the guard at the pork barrels.


Nazis were retreating before US stepped foot in Europe

True. Soviet Union gets a lot of respect for that.

BUT. They probably couldn't do it without western support and equipment. @3:00 if you're in a hurry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adX5A9JJARA



How many nations has Russia invaded in the past 25 years? (USA - Iraq I, Iraq II & Afghanistan)

That makes it since 1989, right?

Well, Soviets were just getting their asses out of Afghanistan and Eritrea if it counts, but then we have Moldova, Tajikistan, Georgia (twice) and Ukraine. There were also uprisings in Chechnya (was actually independent for few years), Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkar Republic, Karachay–Cherkess Republic and North&South Ossetia but the're Russian federal subjects.


How many governments has Russia destabilized in North America? (USA - Ukraine & Yugoslavia)

Great. You found a continent with 3 governments. A bit unfair?

As said before I strongly doubt that USA is much to blame for all brouhaha in Ukraine.

With Yugoslavia you're mostly wrong too.

It was a bit of a perfect storm. Yugoslavia has been non-aligned since 1948 and did business with and curried favors from both blocks. For example, first Yugoslav military jets were F-84 Thunderjets. Our Dear or not so Dear Leader, who kept nationalisms in check, died in May 1980, there was also domestic economic mismanagement. USSR went to hell at just about that time and USA weren't up for sponsoring a socialist state in central Europe they didn't have to.

Secretary of state caught a solid amount of flak on streets of Slovenia for this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c6YbVkzQvI



If Neo-Nazis were being trained in Puerto Rico, Obama would do the same

This Ukrainian neonazis line is biggest Russian propaganda success of the conflict. Right now Ukraine had 2 elections since revolution and on both of them far-right parties had dismal showing. In Rada elections not a single far-right list got over the threshold. I think that 4 individuals with far-right leanings were elected directly, 2 of them in eastern districts. They make under 1% of parliament. Meanwhile France and Hungary have more than 20% of far right representatives.

There are certainly far-righters in Ukraine and even on the front-line. When all is over Hague tribunal will for sure be busy with crimes of both sides.

But there are also many neonazis from Russia taking part on the pro-russian side. Quide a few of them are proud of their leanings and are documenting their exploits.

For example:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B175oGvCUAAQGzf.jpg
Woman in the middle is Dragana Trifković, international observer of seperatist elections of 2nd November. Guys next to her are Russian neo-nazis from Sankt Peterburg. One on the right got quite famous in 2011 when he beheaded a dog, apparently eaten his head and posted photos online. If you want to see more google Alexey Milchakov.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2AK_EjCIAEqD8N.jpg

[velik_m]

The Russians are pussies, always have been. A single Georgian held their entire nation in fear for 30 years, killing them thousands a day.

[Infinite_limit]

In this thread Americans get butthurt.

[RandomGuy]

That happened regardless of this threads event. USA already successfully forced the decline of every market: as the global currency when everyone loses, America loses the least. Russia doing nothing at this point would have been classic behavior of a battered woman. I hope Russia forces Europe to send in trips and as a European I hope those forces get their ass handed to them to teach Europe a lesson as to who they are siding with.

Great news that Russia is sending trips to Americas backyard. After America started meddling in Russia sphere. Russia learned it's lesson from the Cuban Missile Crisis, they shouldn't have budged.

Either way Russia is being economically punished by Nato/US/Europe. Might as well do what they have been slandered by US as doing all along

The word is "troops", btw.

It isn't slander if it is true, dingleberry. The secret military burials of dozens of russian paratroopers that all just happened to be from the same units, and the type of units that would be best used in such unofficial warfare, is proof enough.

Russia's sphere would be a lot easier to respect, if they didn't force their neighbors into things like a classic schoolyard bully.

In this case though, the bullying results in human misery and an erosion of national sovereignty. Corrosive in the extreme to international norms.

[RandomGuy]

I'm thinking about joining the russian military and doing 3 years in exchange for citizenship

Please do.

I normally don't wish that kind of hell on anyone, but in your case, I will make an exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina

[RandomGuy]

Fuck your spheres of influence and all that neo-colonialist bullshit.

Russia lost it's empire at the end of cold war just like Austria (and Hungary) did after WWI and GB sometime after WWII. Sooner Russians understand that better it is for all of us.

Ukraine should be free to associate with whomever they like.

/rant over

+1

[RandomGuy]

Please do it.
And don't come whimpering back home when they find out you are a Nazi.

Heh, for some reason I get the impression that worshipping hitler doesn't go over well in the Russian army.

[Infinite_limit]

<------ European backing the White Race. Go away Yankee

[Leetonidas]

:lol european man purse carrying faggot jacking off to putin

[Infinite_limit]

:lol european man purse carrying faggot jacking off to putin
Carrying purse > Living in traffic

[RandomGuy]

When is the last time you were in Russia? My best friends parents visited 3 months ago.

Russia is blood thirsty after 2 decades of no War and fully united, something you cannot say about the USA. Decaying and fermenting from within.....so now you are blasting America?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/industry.htm



The present condition of Russia's defense sector is critical, and the reasons are well known. One is the aging of highly qualified production personnel, many of whom are approaching retirement age. Engineering school graduates are unwilling to take jobs in the defense sector because of low wages. No worker replacements are trained anywhere in the country either. Earlier, it was taboo to draft workers from defense factories into the army. Now this privilege is abandoned, and graduates of the few surviving vocational schools seek employment elsewhere, but not in the defense sector where receiving a foreign travel passport is a problem.

Another problem is the aging of the equipment in the defense industry: its production lines and machine tools have long passed the 30-year limit. Many key technologies have been lost as have co-production links. The uncontrolled growth of energy costs is outstripping inflation and is well above the deflators provided by the Economic Development and Trade Ministry. It was obvious that the 2006-2015 government defense order would fall short in both the range and quality of products ordered.

A bit dated, but most of the recent additional spending has been insufficient to overcome the disintegration of the old Soviet military complex. Russia has fallen behind China in fighter development as a symptom of this.

The Russian demographic crisis is also pretty well documented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_crisis_of_Russia
Low birth rates are hard to hide, and easy to pick out.

To be fair, more recent economic gains from higher oil prices and the second wave of 1990's kids has stabilized it, although I would guess temporarily, given the almost certain economic impact of Putin's reckless stupidity.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/10/24/11-things-everyone-should-know-about-russian-demography/

Did find an interesting very recent book that I might pick up:
http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/russia-and-ukraine-not-the-military-balance-you-think/#_

FWIW.




This is coupled with a health crisis of epidemic proportion.

[Cry Havoc]

tl;dr of this thread: :lmao Russia.

[Agloco]

I'm thinking about joining the russian military and doing 3 years in exchange for citizenship

Please be sure to join a mine-clearing battalion.

[m>s]

Fuck off good goyim

[pgardn]

Russians did not have any trouble with Japan because US got involved after Pearl Harbor.
Soviets pulled troops for eastern campaign because of this.
Where did you learn history, did you forget the Pacific campaign?
Did you forget Japan?

Why is it people forget Russia moved troops meant for Japan to the Eastern front because the U.S. engaged Japan?
Do people remember Japan was in WWII? And not in a minor Italian way.

[m>s]

It's funny watching a bunch of military know nothings talk about things they neither know nor understand


http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/12-11-2014/129015-russia_nato_nuclear_surprise-0/

[m>s]

Russia has already won the ideological battle and is withstanding Americas sanctions..other countries will soon lose patience with keeping the pressure on Russia to benefit america. At this point russia cannot be beaten militarily or economically after the China deal. Sure america can hurt Russia but it'll be its own undoing while russia will survive and bounce back. The american empire is on its death bed. We are rotting culturally and physically with out infrastructure. Americas future is as a brown 2nd world socialist republic.

[Cry Havoc]

It's funny watching a bunch of military know nothings talk about things they neither know nor understand


http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/12-11-2014/129015-russia_nato_nuclear_surprise-0/

It's even funnier watching you try to deflect and snark your way out of this. :lmao

That link is fucking HILARIOUS. Where the fuck did you find such trash? :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Seriously guys. Read that link. :lmao

[m>s]

Read it and weep u mean

[xeromass]

As a result, today Russia is the absolute leader in this regard. In mid-2014, the balance of the Defense Ministry had as many as 18,177 tanks (T-90 - 400 pcs., T-72B - 7,144 pcs., T-80 - 4,744 pcs, T-64 - 4,000 pcs, T-62 - 689 pcs, and T-55 - 1200 pcs.).

:lol

T-55 - Korean war era relic, useless
T-62 - Vietnam war era relic, useless
T-64 - Ukrainian made, all in storage. They were being shipped en masse in early stages of conflict, but now they switched almost exclusively to T-72s. They either ran out of usable tanks or crews.
T-72 - Their bread&butter. If not latest modernization they're useless at night.
T-80 - Gas turbine powered, huge fuel consumption. Also useless at night.
T-90 - Basically a modernization of T-72. Solid tank, but due to several deficiencies they gave up and are going for clean sheet design.

All Russian tanks from T-64 on have auto loader of similar design. Rounds are stored in floor and on carousel all around the turret. No blast or blow out doors anywhere. If hit in right place it makes for interesting and probably last experience.

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2756/xcxsd.jpg

[pgardn]

Russia has already won the ideological battle and is withstanding Americas sanctions..other countries will soon lose patience with keeping the pressure on Russia to benefit america. At this point russia cannot be beaten militarily or economically after the China deal. Sure america can hurt Russia but it'll be its own undoing while russia will survive and bounce back. The american empire is on its death bed. We are rotting culturally and physically with out infrastructure. Americas future is as a brown 2nd world socialist republic.

The Battle Hardened American Nazi has declared that Russia has won the ideological battle...
Wow...

And this guy knows stuff; the holocaust never happened. Ya see the Nazis were short on gold so they collected Jewish teeth from German dentists... along with hair and shoes. A small recycling effort it was.

Oh, and he beats up black guys when he is out with friends having manly brew conversations concerning the black stain.

[m>s]

:lol

T-55 - Korean war era relic, useless
T-62 - Vietnam war era relic, useless
T-64 - Ukrainian made, all in storage. They were being shipped en masse in early stages of conflict, but now they switched almost exclusively to T-72s. They either ran out of usable tanks or crews.
T-72 - Their bread&butter. If not latest modernization they're useless at night.
T-80 - Gas turbine powered, huge fuel consumption. Also useless at night.
T-90 - Basically a modernization of T-72. Solid tank, but due to several deficiencies they gave up and are going for clean sheet design.

All Russian tanks from T-64 on have auto loader of similar design. Rounds are stored in floor and on carousel all around the turret. No blast or blow out doors anywhere. If hit in right place it makes for interesting and probably last experience.

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2756/xcxsd.jpg
In tank battles quantity beats quality every time

[m>s]

Read this and then report back to me if you have any questions thanks

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/gary-north/russian-plane-disabled-us-warships-missile-defense-system/

[RandomGuy]

It's funny watching a bunch of military know nothings talk about things they neither know nor understand


http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/12-11-2014/129015-russia_nato_nuclear_surprise-0/

(shrugs) I would be willing to bet that know more about current military affairs, history, strategy, tactics, logistics, and geopolitics than you do.

I was an intelligence analyst in the US army in the waning days of the cold war, and still retain some classified information on Russian and US military capabilities and operations that is unavailable to you, and given the overall implosion of the Russian military industrial complex, still quite relevant.

LOL pravda.

Sucker.

[RandomGuy]

:lol

T-55 - Korean war era relic, useless
T-62 - Vietnam war era relic, useless
T-64 - Ukrainian made, all in storage. They were being shipped en masse in early stages of conflict, but now they switched almost exclusively to T-72s. They either ran out of usable tanks or crews.
T-72 - Their bread&butter. If not latest modernization they're useless at night.
T-80 - Gas turbine powered, huge fuel consumption. Also useless at night.
T-90 - Basically a modernization of T-72. Solid tank, but due to several deficiencies they gave up and are going for clean sheet design.

All Russian tanks from T-64 on have auto loader of similar design. Rounds are stored in floor and on carousel all around the turret. No blast or blow out doors anywhere. If hit in right place it makes for interesting and probably last experience.



One of the more important things you forgot was the ability to fire while moving. The T-90 only recently gained that ability.

[Cry Havoc]

In tank battles quantity beats quality every time

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

You can't make up this kind of stupidity.

[Cry Havoc]

One of the more important things you forgot was the ability to fire while moving. The T-90 only recently gained that ability.

Germany's new Leopard or our Abrams would just laugh at anything short of the T-90.

[m>s]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

You can't make up this kind of stupidity.
See: ww2 if you need a case study lil bitch

[Cry Havoc]

See: ww2 if you need a case study lil bitch

Yes, because a conflict that's 70 years old between nations of relatively equal technology would definitely set a precedent for a modern conflict.

:lmao Mad.

:lmao Desperate.

[m>s]

Tech was so uneven in the beginning it's not even funny. Soviets just had an endless supply and Zerg rushed the shit out of us.

[DarrinS]

Why waste time arguing with crazy people?

[Cry Havoc]

Tech was so uneven in the beginning it's not even funny. Soviets just had an endless supply and Zerg rushed the shit out of us.

Except the Russians don't have an endless supply now, especially with their economy in tatters. The strength of their ground forces absolutely pales in comparison to the US. This isn't even really news, or debatable. Russia cannot possibly sustain a war for any length of time given their economic conditions.

[Cry Havoc]

Why waste time arguing with crazy people?

:lol Probably why I stopped arguing with you tbh

[RandomGuy]

Germany's new Leopard or our Abrams would just laugh at anything short of the T-90.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Medina_Ridge

I would point out that China's new MBT get closer than the updated T-90

[RandomGuy]

Tech was so uneven in the beginning it's not even funny. Soviets just had an endless supply and Zerg rushed the shit out of us.

Not quite. The T-34 was technically superior to most german tanks when it was introduced.

Shocked the shit out of the german leadership, whose race-based ideas of who could do what blinded them to the fact that their enemies weren't as stupid as they thought they were.

German tactical superiority carried long enough for their R & D to catch up with the Russians.

But then, I'm sure you knew all that and were deliberately over-simplifying what happened.

[DarrinS]

:lol Probably why I stopped arguing with you tbh

gfy :lol

[RandomGuy]

Except the Russians don't have an endless supply now, especially with their economy in tatters. The strength of their ground forces absolutely pales in comparison to the US. This isn't even really news, or debatable. Russia cannot possibly sustain a war for any length of time given their economic conditions.

There is also the small factor that many of their arms factories were... .Ukranian.

Don't see the Ukies selling arms anymore to the Ruskies, ever. They terminated that relationship this year.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0617/Why-Ukraine-s-freeze-on-arms-sales-to-Russia-will-hurt-Kiev-too


According to the official ITAR-Tass agency, 79 Ukrainian and 859 Russian defense firms will be adversely affected. These industries have been intertwined since Soviet times, when Ukraine accounted for about 30 percent of Soviet military shipbuilding and disproportionately high shares in aviation, missiles, armor, and space industries.



For Moscow, the collapse in relations spells an expensive and technically difficult detour from President Vladimir Putin's ambitious 10-year, $800 billion rearmament program. Many parts of that plan must now be put off as Russian industries struggle to find substitutions for the high quality, custom-made parts they formerly received from Ukraine.

Declining oil prices and the falling ruble, among other things, will severely hamper the Russian's upgrading of their military capabilities going forward.

Ukraine, however, will be propping up their own arms industry as they build up to counter the Russian threat. As noted before the balance of power is not going to stay decisively in Russia's favor for long.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-main-task-build-army-stop-russia-pm-115102589--business.html

[Cry Havoc]

gfy :lol

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

There is also the small factor that many of their arms factories were... .Ukranian.

Don't see the Ukies selling arms anymore to the Ruskies, ever. They terminated that relationship this year.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0617/Why-Ukraine-s-freeze-on-arms-sales-to-Russia-will-hurt-Kiev-too






Declining oil prices and the falling ruble, among other things, will severely hamper the Russian's upgrading of their military capabilities going forward.

Ukraine, however, will be propping up their own arms industry as they build up to counter the Russian threat. As noted before the balance of power is not going to stay decisively in Russia's favor for long.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-main-task-build-army-stop-russia-pm-115102589--business.html

It's amazing that for all his dick-waving, Putin shot himself and his country squarely in the foot. Every decision and bluster he's made over the past ~18 months has been to a detriment of long term relations. Honestly, he's an outright threat to the economic stability of Russia at this point. He never struck me as quite this politically tone deaf in the past, so either things got really desperate in Russia (likely), or there are powers behind the throne forcing his hand (perhaps even more likely).

If Russian currency continues to plummet (down to .021 per $ now), things are going to get really interesting. In a bad way. I admit to harboring a sort of morbid fascination with watching a country that had done so much to improve world relations and set itself on the stage as a burgeoning power with a genuine concern for the global good suddenly (hopefully not literally) nuke itself into ostracism. Not even China (China!) is this inept, arrogant, or self-destructive when it comes to their own reputation.

[RandomGuy]

In tank battles quantity beats quality every time

Again, an amateurish over-simplification.

Quantity does not trump everything all the time, especially when one considers how units might be deployed. All the superior numbers in the world will not help a poorly deployed unit versus a well-trained agile one that leverages its advantages against its opponents weaknesses.

The best one can really say, is that quantity can make up for an opponents tactical or technological superiority to a certain point.

[m>s]

Not quite. The T-34 was technically superior to most german tanks when it was introduced.

Shocked the shit out of the german leadership, whose race-based ideas of who could do what blinded them to the fact that their enemies weren't as stupid as they thought they were.

German tactical superiority carried long enough for their R & D to catch up with the Russians.

But then, I'm sure you knew all that and were deliberately over-simplifying what happened.
In Barbarossa yes but germans had tigers by 42. Like I said they produced so many t34s that the tigers superiority didn't reaer matter. Quantity beats quality in tank battles.

[RandomGuy]

It's amazing that for all his dick-waving, Putin shot himself and his country squarely in the foot. Every decision and bluster he's made over the past ~18 months has been to a detriment of long term relations. Honestly, he's an outright threat to the economic stability of Russia at this point. He never struck me as quite this politically tone deaf in the past, so either things got really desperate in Russia (likely), or there are powers behind the throne forcing his hand (perhaps even more likely).

If Russian currency continues to plummet (down to .021 per $ now), things are going to get really interesting. In a bad way. I admit to harboring a sort of morbid fascination with watching a country that had done so much to improve world relations and set itself on the stage as a burgeoning power with a genuine concern for the global good suddenly (hopefully not literally) nuke itself into ostracism. Not even China (China!) is this inept, arrogant, or self-destructive when it comes to their own reputation.

Putin is enormously popular at home for many of the same reasons that made Hitler popular.

He can lie very effectively to his own populace using a propaganda arm second to none.
He is making the average citizen feel good about their country again after suffering a fairly humiliating defeat and embarrassment.

Russians got used to being a peer with the US, and the loss of that status cut their pride a lot.

Putin also sees things in a much more basic level, but appears to be suffering from the same malaise that afflicts all autocrats: yes-man-itis.

I don't see many around him offering any negative feedback to his decisions.

The ruble's fall doesn't mean as much overall as the decline in the price of oil to Russia. Remember oil is traded in dollars, and Russia exports a lot of it. Both combined will be a huge double whammy. Inflation and economic contraction at the same time the govt burns through its currency reserves. Yikes. They are already having trouble paying their pensioners.

[xeromass]

Poland is with little help of its friends developing a PL-01 tank:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6Y42ZOjLQ

It's based on CV90 chassis so not exactly MBT, but could be armed with 120mm gun. The one driving around is just a mock-up.

It's main party trick is thermal camouflage. They plan to cover the whole tank in peltier elements.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a9vILtAINc

If they pull this off it would revolutionize tank warfare, especially in low visibility conditions.

[m>s]

Poland stronk! Rhat tank design is interesting, my biggest question is if it's cost effective

[Cry Havoc]

The ruble's fall doesn't mean as much overall as the decline in the price of oil to Russia. Remember oil is traded in dollars, and Russia exports a lot of it. Both combined will be a huge double whammy. Inflation and economic contraction at the same time the govt burns through its currency reserves. Yikes. They are already having trouble paying their pensioners.

Well, the point I was making is that the ruble's fall is a pretty big sign that all is not well at home. They could argue off the oil prices as market fluctuations, but it's hard for them to demonstrate that they aren't concerned about their economy when their currency starts to tank so badly that they're at risk of hyperinflation.

[RandomGuy]

In Barbarossa yes but germans had tigers by 42. Like I said they produced so many t34s that the tigers superiority didn't reaer matter. Quantity beats quality in tank battles.

Again, an amateurish oversimplification.

"by 42" means by August, and the initial production runs barely topped 20/month.

Even this technological wonder was hampered by poor tactics in its first few engagements, as the German troops simply didn't know how to most effectively deploy them, a potential drawback I have already pointed out.


Eager to make use of the powerful new weapon, Hitler ordered the vehicle be pressed into service months earlier than planned.[40] A platoon of four Tigers was put into action on 23 September 1942 near Leningrad.[41] Operating in swampy, forested terrain their movement was largely confined to roads and tracks, making defense against them far easier. Many of these early models were plagued by problems with the transmission, which had difficulty handling the heavy weight of the vehicle if pushed too hard. It took time for drivers to learn how to avoid over taxing the vehicle, and many broke down. The most significant event from this engagement was that one of Tigers became stuck in swampy ground and had to be abandoned. Captured largely intact, its capture allowed the Soviets to study the design and prepare countermeasures

To say "quantity always beats quality" reflects the kind of amatuer grasp of issues that modern platform gamers have, since their experience and knowledge of such things are based on games that were designed to reflect the reality of world war 2, in which case that held true, but is simply an over-simplification on the part of the game community, and an artificial one at that.

Play a few less computer games... read a bit more, or play something that requires a bit more knowledge of actual tactics like Advanced Squad Leader if you can find a copy. You can't have mine.

[m>s]

I'll stick to hearts of iron

[Cry Havoc]

I'll stick to hearts of iron

:lmao

Getting knowledge from a video game

:lmao

Failed schtick

:lmao

Fooled no one

:lmao

[m>s]

youve never played it gamer boy? You should try

[FuzzyLumpkins]

m>s' grasp of military tactics comes from video games?

there are awesome books on modern infantry armor, and artillery tactics to be had but that would require the ability to read more than 100 words at a go.

simpleton.

[m>s]

Playing video games /= getting your knowledge from them. Some of them are very useful though

[RandomGuy]

youve never played it gamer boy? You should try

Meh. Knock off of World in Flames and a lot of things borrowed from older board games, with some extra jazz thrown in to make modern gamers happy. Good game to be sure.

If you want a better sense, though, of what factors go into the unit-level tactics, try something like Advanced Squad Leader. 118 page 3 ring binder gets you the starting rules, and you can spend a few hundred on the additional nationality and unit type packs. Individual battle scenarios based on real-world accounts and battles.

[RandomGuy]

Playing video games /= getting your knowledge from them. Some of them are very useful though

Useful to a point, yes. Better:

http://www.amazon.com/Panzer-Leader-Heinz-Guderian/dp/0306811014
http://www.amazon.com/Enemy-Gates-Battle-Stalingrad-Tie-In/dp/0142000000
http://www.amazon.com/Infantry-Attacks-Marshall-Erwin-Rommel/dp/1607963353

(German lang version>>>) http://www.amazon.com/Infanterie-greift-an/dp/3901185070
http://www.amazon.com/War-Indexed-Carl-von-Clausewitz/dp/0691018545

(german version)http://www.amazon.com/Vom-Kriege-German-Clausewitz/dp/1469995387
http://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Admiral-Hiroyuki-Agawa/dp/087011512X
for starters.

[RandomGuy]

m>s' grasp of military tactics comes from video games?

there are awesome books on modern infantry armor, and artillery tactics to be had but that would require the ability to read more than 100 words at a go.

simpleton.

US War College puts out an excellent reading list, one or two of which go into RG's stocking every year:
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/library/bibs/smrl_2012.pdf

Wish I had time to read more.

Pentagon's New Map by PM Barnett was one of the best.

This year:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14941196-the-complexity-of-modern-asymmetric-warfare

Got to pick one other, probably pick something on energy security.

[RandomGuy]

In tank battles quantity beats quality every time

Another thought that occurred to me thinking about this statement is that the US Army/NATO planned for Soviet tank superiority for 50 years+.

Blunting this superiority were some very nasty infantry weapons, close air-support, like the A-10 and Apache for starters, tactics aside. Added to this are modern drones with anti-tank missiles.

Lunch is just about up. Adios.

[m>s]

Sounds like the shit although it's not something you just pick up and play during your spare time IMHO. Seems like a lot to learn to get started.

[Infinite_limit]

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10502521_771724092882717_286511019623138206_n.jpg? oh=542f3543407e609e839c48c9bb12d84e&oe=5519396C&__gda__=1427685969_7b9bb59d6823ab999841e6e9affc02d 9

[boutons_deux]

How the Israel Lobby Protected Ukrainian Neo-Nazis

Rep. John Conyers wanted to block U.S. funding to neo-Nazis in Ukraine. But the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center refused to help.

AlterNet has learned that an amendment to the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that would have forbidden US assistance, training and weapons to neo-Nazis and other extremists in Ukraine was kept out of the final bill by the Republican-led House Rules Committee. Introduced by Democratic Representative John Conyers, the amendment was intended to help tamp down on violent confrontations between Ukrainian forces and Russian separatists. (Full text of the amendment embedded at the end of this article).

A USA Today/Pew poll (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/28/usa-today-pew-poll-americans-wary-of-sending-arms-to-ukraine/8406393/) conducted in April while the NDAA was being debated found that Americans opposed by more than 2 to 1 providing the Ukrainian government with arms or other forms of military assistance.
If passed, Conyers' amendment would have explicitly barred those found to have offered “praise or glorification of Nazism or its collaborators, including through the use of white supremacist, neo-Nazi, or other similar symbols” from receiving any form of support from the US Department of Defense.

The amendment was presented by congressional staffers to lobbyists from Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, two of the country’s largest established Jewish pressure groups. Despite their stated mission to combat anti-Semitism and violent extremism, the ADL and Wiesenthal Center refused to support Jeffries and Conyers’ proposal.

According to Democratic sources in Congress, staffers from the ADL’s Washington office and the Simon Wiesenthal Center rejected the amendment on the grounds that right-wing Ukrainian parties like Svoboda with documented records of racist extremism had “moderated their rhetoric.” An ADL lobbyist insisted that “the focus should be on Russia,” while the Wiesenthal Center pointed to meetings between far-right political leaders in Ukraine and the Israeli embassy as evidence that groups like Svoboda and Right Sector had shed their extremism.
http://www.alternet.org/world/how-israel-lobby-protected-ukrainian-neo-nazis?akid=12483.187590.NGF6tw&rd=1&src=newsletter1027326&t=3

[RandomGuy]

Sounds like the shit although it's not something you just pick up and play during your spare time IMHO. Seems like a lot to learn to get started.

ASL is a lot to get started. There are some miniature systems that are easier to drop into and play though, that also give very good sense of simulation at the tactical level.

I will say though, that after having a hobby that involved reading through long or complex sets of rules, becoming an accountant was just another case of learning a new set of rules, and then learning strategies and operations under those rules.

A similarity that I pointed out to my parents, who were always of the opinion that the hobby was a waste of time...