Leonard steal watch...

[KL2]

I've always wondered, how many steals per game does Leonard really get? Ask yourself, how many times have you seen Leonard deflect a ball and it falls in his teammates lap? A shit load of times, but he doesn't get credit for the steal even though he created it, instead those steal #'s go to his teammates. He immediately gets out and runs the fast break when he deflects the ball, leading to scoring opportunities.

Against GSW:
1 registered steal
2x deflected passes
1x steal goes to Manu, the other TP, both get credit for steals (I'm not sure the shitty box score even kept track of these steals)
3 steals

Against LAC:
3x registered steals
2x deflected passes
1x to Cojo, 1x to Manu
5 steals




Those are just off highlights I can see on youtube, who knows how many he actually gets, I always see him doing it at least 2x a game. I'm going to try to keep track of these from now on, it's a really underrated stat. Deflections leading to steals, making his teammates better. Green is another guy I see do this every so often as well.

[SpursFan86]

It depends on the statkeeper. I've seen instances where people get credit for the steal if they deflect a pass that ends up going to their teammate.

[BillMc]

Green gets a lot too. We have some seriously good wing defenders.

[100%duncan]

The clips commentator kept repeating that kawhi is top 3 in steal conversions/ratio

[RD2191]

The clips commentator kept repeating that kawhi is top 3 in steal conversions/ratio
Rofl profile pic.

[Seventyniner]

The clips commentator kept repeating that kawhi is top 3 in steal conversions/ratio

Let's say Kawhi straight up steals one pass, deflects another pass but it stays with the opposition, and pokes a dribble away into the hands of another Spur. Would that be a 2/3 conversion ratio, since he got his hand on the ball 3 times and the Spurs ended up with 2 of them?

[Cry Havoc]

This is actually a pretty good thread. Steals in the NBA should be completely re-evaluated. Baseball has all kinds of statistics for this sort of thing. If defensive players got credit for every time they touched the ball while on D, it could lead to a lot of revelatory stats for disrupting defensive prowess.

I think the NBA should add the following stats:

PD - Passes Deflected - I think this is already tracked but no one seems to pay attention and it's never even brought up.
OD/DD - Offensive Disruption/Dribble Disruption - Anytime a defensive player sabotages the free movement of the ball when the player holding the ball is dribbling or moving around the court.
ASA - Adjusted Shot Attempt - When a defensive player forces an offensive player to alter or adjust the angle or trajectory of their shot, regardless of whether it goes in or not.
DEP - Disrupted expiring play - When a player successfully defends a shot in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock.
DSF - Difficult shot forced - Anytime a defender forces a player into a tough shot, be it a fadeaway, a double clutch shot, a low percentage area of the court (think just inside the FT line), or long 3.

Just some ideas obviously.

[spurraider21]

if we make steals more subjective, then apalisoc will go bonkers with fabricated stats

[Cry Havoc]

if we make steals more subjective, then apalisoc will go bonkers with fabricated stats

More stats would assist the steals statistic. Shouldn't a player get credit for knocking the ball away from a player even if it's not an outright steal?

[100%duncan]

Let's say Kawhi straight up steals one pass, deflects another pass but it stays with the opposition, and pokes a dribble away into the hands of another Spur. Would that be a 2/3 conversion ratio, since he got his hand on the ball 3 times and the Spurs ended up with 2 of them?

I am not sure how this stat really works. Found it as something new to myself when the announcers mentioned it during the game when Whiwhi was stealing steals left and right :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Try watching a Cavs game, Lebron gets 3-4 undeserved assists a game. Statkeepers are trash IMO

[heyheymymy]

This is actually a pretty good thread. Steals in the NBA should be completely re-evaluated. Baseball has all kinds of statistics for this sort of thing. If defensive players got credit for every time they touched the ball while on D, it could lead to a lot of revelatory stats for disrupting defensive prowess.

I think the NBA should add the following stats:

PD - Passes Deflected - I think this is already tracked but no one seems to pay attention and it's never even brought up.
OD/DD - Offensive Disruption/Dribble Disruption - Anytime a defensive player sabotages the free movement of the ball when the player holding the ball is dribbling or moving around the court.
ASA - Adjusted Shot Attempt - When a defensive player forces an offensive player to alter or adjust the angle or trajectory of their shot, regardless of whether it goes in or not.
DEP - Disrupted expiring play - When a player successfully defends a shot in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock.
DSF - Difficult shot forced - Anytime a defender forces a player into a tough shot, be it a fadeaway, a double clutch shot, a low percentage area of the court (think just inside the FT line), or long 3.

Just some ideas obviously.

was just thinking the other day that there should be a pass disrupted/deflected stat in the defense category. good ideas.

[Phenomanul]

This is actually a pretty good thread. Steals in the NBA should be completely re-evaluated. Baseball has all kinds of statistics for this sort of thing. If defensive players got credit for every time they touched the ball while on D, it could lead to a lot of revelatory stats for disrupting defensive prowess.

I think the NBA should add the following stats:

PD - Passes Deflected - I think this is already tracked but no one seems to pay attention and it's never even brought up.
OD/DD - Offensive Disruption/Dribble Disruption - Anytime a defensive player sabotages the free movement of the ball when the player holding the ball is dribbling or moving around the court.
ASA - Adjusted Shot Attempt - When a defensive player forces an offensive player to alter or adjust the angle or trajectory of their shot, regardless of whether it goes in or not.
DEP - Disrupted expiring play - When a player successfully defends a shot in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock.
DSF - Difficult shot forced - Anytime a defender forces a player into a tough shot, be it a fadeaway, a double clutch shot, a low percentage area of the court (think just inside the FT line), or long 3.

Just some ideas obviously.

There's a bit of subjectiveness to some of these metrics...

[Cry Havoc]

There's a bit of subjectiveness to some of these metrics...

If we eliminated subjectiveness to stats there wouldn't be any stats left. Assists are often subjective.

The passed ball/wild pitch is ALWAYS subjective and baseball uses it effectively anyway. That's the beauty of statistics. Over time, details that aren't being evaluated as objective will either A) iron themselves out or B) be exposed as fraudulent.

[Captivus]

I would like to see this stat, Name to be defined:

How many passes (+-) are received by a player being guarded by X player.
Lets say Lebron averages 50 passes received in a game, but when being guarded by Kawhi he only gets 35.
This calculation has to be done for all players guarding all players.

The player that has the highest + in this stat, means that the player he is guarding catches the ball less. Thats good defense.

Bad news: This calculation has a lot of problems, players passing the ball to each other at half-court or even back, zone defense, there should be a minimum distance between player that passes and player that receives (a 1 feet pass shouldnt count, no way to defend that)

Good news: Just define the variables named before. This stat can already be calculated using the new tracking system.

[D-rob fan]

IIRC, NBA.COM had a "batted" or "deflected" stat a few years ago (maybe 3-4 years ago?). I'm not sure if it is still there or no longer recorded. The new nba.com stat section is too convoluted for me.

[hyhy]

I've always wondered, how many steals per game does Leonard really get? Ask yourself, how many times have you seen Leonard deflect a ball and it falls in his teammates lap? A shit load of times, but he doesn't get credit for the steal even though he created it, instead those steal #'s go to his teammates. He immediately gets out and runs the fast break when he deflects the ball, leading to scoring opportunities.

Against GSW:
1 registered steal
2x deflected passes
1x steal goes to Manu, the other TP, both get credit for steals (I'm not sure the shitty box score even kept track of these steals)
3 steals

Against LAC:
3x registered steals
2x deflected passes
1x to Cojo, 1x to Manu
5 steals




Those are just off highlights I can see on youtube, who knows how many he actually gets, I always see him doing it at least 2x a game. I'm going to try to keep track of these from now on, it's a really underrated stat. Deflections leading to steals, making his teammates better. Green is another guy I see do this every so often as well.

What about the other way round? how many of the "registered steals" are deflected passes from kawhi's teammates and landed into his hands?

[KL2]

What about the other way round? how many of the "registered steals" are deflected passes from kawhi's teammates and landed into his hands?

Probably not much, I only see Green/Leonard doing it most of the game, usually because they're guarding the best perimeter player, or on help defense, they always manage to poke the ball away. Everyone else just tries to stay with their man, make as few mistakes as possible, because it is a gamble at times, it's very easy to foul the opponent or get caught off position reaching which leaves you little time to recover on defense.

[Captivus]

Im gonna keep an eye on this against the Lakers today.

[Kabals]

Steal are always credited to the player who deflect the pass.

Against GSW, the steal was credited to Joseph probably because Leonard missed the ball with his hand (he did disrupt the dribble though, and it seems that he actually knocked the ball with his foot unintentionally on the end).

[DPG21920]

I thought this was a thread about Kawhi getting into trouble

[tholdren]

More stats would assist the steals statistic. Shouldn't a player get credit for knocking the ball away from a player even if it's not an outright steal?

no. It's just like blocks. Why do I care if you block a shot if it goes back to the offensive team and they score. All a block does, sometimes, is delay a score or give the offense a better shot.


Additionally, OP, Dejuan Blair actually had TONS of deflections that lead to steals. This was really why I felt he was a semi-useful defender.

And finally, this goes back to assisting the assistor (hockey assist).

Putting in more detailed/specific stats will, in my opinion, bring more support for good basketball players rather than the typical one dimensional superstar that plagues the NBA. It used to be, and still is in high school, scoring was the systematic way basketball players were/are rated. Now, thanks to SA, and players like Diaw, and.... ugggghhhh, LBJ, filling a stat sheet is becoming a fad. Hopefully, this trend continues, and we can get the garbage out of the NBA.

[Mel_13]

Against LAC:
3x registered steals
2x deflected passes
1x to Cojo, 1x to Manu
[B]5 steals



Steal are always credited to the player who deflect the pass.

Within a few days after each game you can go the box score on nba.com and click on each stat to bring up video of the play that generated that stat. Here's the one for the Clipper game:

http://stats.nba.com/game/#!/0021400102/

Kawhi wasn't involved in either play that was credited as a steal for Joseph, so I'm not sure what play you may be referring to. Manu didn't get credited with any steals in the game, but I'm pretty sure you're referring to a play which was credited as a steal to Boris. Boris deflected the ball to Kawhi, who deflected it to Manu.

Kabals would appear to be correct based on the small sample from this game. Cory's second steal was a deflection to Tony. For the Clipper game, the video evidence is fairly clear that all 11 steals credited to the Spurs that night were assigned to the correct player. There may have been steals that were missed entirely, but that wouldn't show up in the box score.

[UZER]

I thought this was a thread about Kawhi getting into trouble

Oh cuz he's blacc?

Racist.

[Cry Havoc]

no. It's just like blocks. Why do I care if you block a shot if it goes back to the offensive team and they score. All a block does, sometimes, is delay a score or give the offense a better shot.


Additionally, OP, Dejuan Blair actually had TONS of deflections that lead to steals. This was really why I felt he was a semi-useful defender.

You realize you completely contradicted yourself here, right?