Chris Paul Apologetics by Zach Loiwe.

[midnightpulp]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

I don't agree with Lowe here. And as you all know, I was once very high on Chris Paul's clutch fortitude.

I'm also all for "zooming out" and looking at the game objectively using stats (preferably advanced) and an emotionally detached eye test that isn't influenced by the narratives Lowe is talking about, but I find it disingenuous of him to cite Chris Paul's (very) impressive playoff PER to make his point while disregarding any of kind of context, namely sample size (53 playoff games). Of course a productive player like Paul is going to have an impressive PER when the sample size is that small and when most of the playoff games he's played were in the 1st and 2nd rounds (see Tracy McGrady).

That said, interesting read.

[Clipper Nation]

Amazing how the media is STILL making excuses for this loser, as is most of our fanbase. Meanwhile, Blake is becoming MVPau: a great big man being used incorrectly for the sake of a heroballing guard's ego and being blamed every time we lose.

[Thread]

Amazing how the media is STILL making excuses for this loser

That dictate is coming straight out of NYC. And it's not up to debate. He is under the protection of Silver.

[Killakobe81]

I saw this and I think Lowe is one of the best NBA writers and thought about posting. But PER? So Paul if you take this article at face value has not only better PER than Parker (but less rings) and Duncan (same). Because he excels at numbers that stat values? Death to rings is stupid. Because as great as Paul, Barkley, Malone Ewing, Reggie etc were are you still need to win. He brought up Dirk but dirk has taken his team to two finals and won one. To compare the two is silly. I do agree that Dirk was getting murdered here (DFW) locally for his failures before 2011 but his playoff resume was better than Paul's no matter what those numbers say.

I think CN, goes much to far shielding Blake (who was mediocre last night) and blaming Paul when they are BOTH the stars and should get the lion's share of the credit when they win and blame when they lose.

Paul is a great player a great Pg. But the love advanced nerds have for him and his clutch shooting numbers skews the ability to properly discuss Paul.

Good news for Paul and CLips fans Lebron was considered a choker recently ...how did THAT turn out? As the article points out same for Dirk and KG. the narrative can change. But you still have to WIN. Otherwise you are Karl Malone instead of Dirk ...

[midnightpulp]

I saw this and I think Lowe is one of the best NBA writers and thought about posting. But PER? So Paul if you take this article at face value has not only better PER than Parker (but less rings) and Duncan (same). Because he excels at numbers that stat values? Death to rings is stupid. Because as great as Paul, Barkley, Malone Ewing, Reggie etc were are you still need to win. He brought up Dirk but dirk has taken his team to two finals and won one. To compare the two is silly. I do agree that Dirk was getting murdered here (DFW) locally for his failures before 2011 but his playoff resume was better than Paul's no matter what those numbers say.

I think CN, goes much to far shielding Blake (who was mediocre last night) and blaming Paul when they are BOTH the stars and should get the lion's share of the credit when they win and blame when they lose.

Paul is a great player a great Pg. But the love advanced nerds have for him and his clutch shooting numbers skews the ability to properly discuss Paul.

Good news for Paul and CLips fans Lebron was considered a choker recently ...how did THAT turn out? As the article points out same for Dirk and KG. the narrative can change. But you still have to WIN. Otherwise you are Karl Malone instead of Dirk ...

That's why I criticized Lowe for using PER in a vacuum in this case. Of course Paul's advanced stats are going to look pretty when the sample size is only 53 games (he also had an exceptional '08 playoff run [Jannero Pargo aside] that saw his PER at 30, which skews his overall average somewhat) and most of his playoff games were in the 1st or 2nd round, presumably against weaker opponents and when he's fresher.

Otherwise you are Karl Malone instead of Dirk

I don't agree with that. Karl Malone is a choker because he has multiple blunders in his career that directly led the Jazz to losing when they shouldn't have. If Paul gets super hot and kills it during the playoffs, leading the Clippers to the Finals, but they come up short because DeAndre Jordan choked at the line or Blake Griffin got injured, that should be a career boost for Paul, despite the failure to ring.




Do

[Killakobe81]

That's why I criticized Lowe for using PER in a vacuum in this case. Of course Paul's advanced stats are going to look pretty when the sample size is only 53 games (he also had an exceptional '08 playoff run [Jannero Pargo aside] that saw his PER at 30, which skews his overall average somewhat) and most of his playoff games were in the 1st or 2nd round, presumably against weaker opponents and when he's fresher.

Otherwise you are Karl Malone instead of Dirk

I don't agree with that. Karl Malone is a choker because he has multiple blunders in his career that directly led the Jazz to losing when they shouldn't have. If Paul gets super hot and kills it during the playoffs, leading the Clippers to the Finals, but they come up short because DeAndre Jordan choked at the line or Blake Griffin got injured, that should be a career boost for Paul, despite the failure to ring.




Do

I agree Malone has multiple chokes, so does Paul which the article cited. Dirk may not have as many as either but the national media crushed him after the warriors upset and when Denver punked him. and the local media and fans even though they should have known better did the same. winning changes that. and tbh most arent even asking for a title. the question Simmons asked which Lowe was pissed is if he is THAT good how come no conference finals? Even KG managed that in Minny.

I dont blame Paul for their lack of success he changed the Clips culture. I also dont buy DOK's theory that PG's cant win titles. But it's a fair question (why no WCF) even in a team sport.

[dirk4mvp]

:lol Denver punked Dirk


He was the best player in that series by a mile

[StrengthAndHonor]

Chris Paul is NOT the biggest problem. Period.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Denver punked Dirk


He was the best player in that series by a mile
Yeah, that was arguably his best playoff series ever. Pretty sure he's confusing Denver with 2007 Golden State.

[Clipper Nation]

Chris Paul is NOT the biggest problem. Period.
Yes, he is, period. His $107 million salary has made it impossible to fill our gaping void at the 3 with anyone other than marginal players and washed-up vets. He is ruining Blake's career by trying to turn him into David West when that is so clearly not Blake's style. His Enrique heroball act has become predictable and easy to stop; the vaunted "CP3 time" in the 4th has become "brick, overdribble and turnover time." It's not a winning strategy when the rest of the conference has a legit small forward that they can switch onto him.

Meanwhile, our dumbass fanbase has decided that Blake is "soft" and "a pussy." Never mind the fact that Choke and Woodson are making him chuck midrange jumpers and back down his man all game when his strengths are the high post and face-up game. Never mind the fact that defenses are now completely ignoring Doc's "shooters" who can't shoot and collapsing on Blake instead, and that DJ lacks any offensive game beyond dunking, so his man can just double off him whenever Blake enters the paint. Never mind the fact that he has a serious back injury and is clearly playing through pain every night. Nope, he "sucks" while the $107 million choking flopper is "tough" and "clutch."

[Killakobe81]

:lol Denver punked Dirk


He was the best player in that series by a mile

I love Dirk but dude was "punked" (had his manhood challenged) in that series with their thug tactics. I never said he wasnt the best player in fact he scored at a great rate. But some of that was why people were calling him Soft. I agree that he actually showed great toughness and was still busting Denver's ass ... I was speaking of fans here in DFW and even Chuck etc. calling him a soft jump shooter saying he needed to get on the block ...

[Killakobe81]

Yes, he is, period. His $107 million salary has made it impossible to fill our gaping void at the 3 with anyone other than marginal players and washed-up vets. He is ruining Blake's career by trying to turn him into David West when that is so clearly not Blake's style. His Enrique heroball act has become predictable and easy to stop; the vaunted "CP3 time" in the 4th has become "brick, overdribble and turnover time." It's not a winning strategy when the rest of the conference has a legit small forward that they can switch onto him.

Meanwhile, our dumbass fanbase has decided that Blake is "soft" and "a pussy." Never mind the fact that Choke and Woodson are making him chuck midrange jumpers and back down his man all game when his strengths are the high post and face-up game. Never mind the fact that defenses are now completely ignoring Doc's "shooters" who can't shoot and collapsing on Blake instead, and that DJ lacks any offensive game beyond dunking, so his man can just double off him whenever Blake enters the paint. Never mind the fact that he has a serious back injury and is clearly playing through pain every night. Nope, he "sucks" while the $107 million choking flopper is "tough" and "clutch."

A lot of Blake excuse making and Paul finger pointing in this thread. But it seems the best long defender strategy that used to work on Parker (doesnt work as much anymore) limits Paul in the clutch. Kiwi played him perfect the other night ...

[ambchang]

I am still going by measuring a player individually rather than based on team success. Theoretically, great players lead teams deep into the playoffs, or even win it all.

But in CP3's case, he didn't have much to work with in NO, and the Clippers team, as talented as it is, has a number of flaws:
1) Wing defense - Whoever SG and SF next to CP3 has been bad defensively. No need to elaborate
2) Interior defense - Griffin doesn't play much of it. Jordan gets baited very easily. They look great with their athleticism, but their actual defensive output isn't that great.
3) Bench - Just bad. No need to elaborate
4) Coaching - Questionable preparation. Too often the Clippers seemed to be lost during crunch time.

Paul puts up historical stats on bad teams (NO) because he was the system. The entire offense was around him. But when he's on the Clippers, he doesn't seem to be able to really harness the talent around him. He is still ball dominant, and his ability to play off the ball isn't all that great.

On the other hand, the West is loaded, and with the Spurs and OKC in the way the last few years, no one can realistically expect the Clippers to make the Finals, or even the WCF.

This year, I fully expect the Spurs, GSW, and if 100% healthy, OKC to be better than the Clippers.

[dirk4mvp]

I love Dirk but dude was "punked" (had his manhood challenged) in that series with their thug tactics. I never said he wasnt the best player in fact he scored at a great rate. But some of that was why people were calling him Soft. I agree that he actually showed great toughness and was still busting Denver's ass ... I was speaking of fans here in DFW and even Chuck etc. calling him a soft jump shooter saying he needed to get on the block ...

so he wasn't punked then, considering he responded by "getting his manhood challenged" by having one of his best playoff series of his career. Not his fault Antoine Wright didn't close line Melo to get the refs call the intentional foul, tbh imo

And I can't speak for DFW fans who enjoyed calling Dirk soft, a choker etc because he's a tall euro jumpshooter until he rang in 11, but Barkley is an idiot with maybe the worst basketball takes of any national basketball analyst tbh

[AlexJones]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAgZzaKE2o



Conference Semifinals
41.6

.534

.385

.919
11.6





34.4



I'll never forget this one tbh.. after the Crystal Taylor incident it lit a fire up his ass

[Killakobe81]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAgZzaKE2o



Conference Semifinals
41.6

.534

.385

.919
11.6





34.4



I'll never forget this one tbh.. after the Crystal Taylor incident it lit a fire up his ass

It's funny the other day when he passed Hakeem ...you can make a case for Dirk (career wise) over Hakeem. Prime Hakeem is matched by few but I think I take Dirk's career resume over his if he continues to finish strong. That's a fluid argument since two years ago I would have taken Kobe's over Duncan's ... but the more u think about it it's very close. Duncan beats Kobe and Shaq but those two are just behind those two tbh (not peak but career)

[Killakobe81]

I am still going by measuring a player individually rather than based on team success. Theoretically, great players lead teams deep into the playoffs, or even win it all.

But in CP3's case, he didn't have much to work with in NO, and the Clippers team, as talented as it is, has a number of flaws:
1) Wing defense - Whoever SG and SF next to CP3 has been bad defensively. No need to elaborate
2) Interior defense - Griffin doesn't play much of it. Jordan gets baited very easily. They look great with their athleticism, but their actual defensive output isn't that great.
3) Bench - Just bad. No need to elaborate
4) Coaching - Questionable preparation. Too often the Clippers seemed to be lost during crunch time.

Paul puts up historical stats on bad teams (NO) because he was the system. The entire offense was around him. But when he's on the Clippers, he doesn't seem to be able to really harness the talent around him. He is still ball dominant, and his ability to play off the ball isn't all that great.

On the other hand, the West is loaded, and with the Spurs and OKC in the way the last few years, no one can realistically expect the Clippers to make the Finals, or even the WCF.

This year, I fully expect the Spurs, GSW, and if 100% healthy, OKC to be better than the Clippers.

If that is true how does this Laker team win 30 or Lebron with the current Lakers minus Kobe win 45? IF he could he would be the undisputed GOAT tbh

[ambchang]

If that is true how does this Laker team win 30 or Lebron with the current Lakers minus Kobe win 45? IF he could he would be the undisputed GOAT tbh

They still play 30 games vs the east. You win 20 of those, and you only have to go 20-32 of the remaining west games

A peak prime Lebron is more than capable of doing that. You are talking about a guy who dragged those cavs team with mike brown at the helm to the finals.

[313]

I am still going by measuring a player individually rather than based on team success. Theoretically, great players lead teams deep into the playoffs, or even win it all.

But in CP3's case, he didn't have much to work with in NO, and the Clippers team, as talented as it is, has a number of flaws:
1) Wing defense - Whoever SG and SF next to CP3 has been bad defensively. No need to elaborate
2) Interior defense - Griffin doesn't play much of it. Jordan gets baited very easily. They look great with their athleticism, but their actual defensive output isn't that great.
3) Bench - Just bad. No need to elaborate
4) Coaching - Questionable preparation. Too often the Clippers seemed to be lost during crunch time.

Paul puts up historical stats on bad teams (NO) because he was the system. The entire offense was around him. But when he's on the Clippers, he doesn't seem to be able to really harness the talent around him. He is still ball dominant, and his ability to play off the ball isn't all that great.

On the other hand, the West is loaded, and with the Spurs and OKC in the way the last few years, no one can realistically expect the Clippers to make the Finals, or even the WCF.

This year, I fully expect the Spurs, GSW, and if 100% healthy, OKC to be better than the Clippers.
Memphis is also better imo