steve nash is better than dirk all-time

[King Emmanuel]

i'm not sure how people can say _irk was better than stevie. nash has the advantage in mvps (2-1), owned dirk head to head in his prime and is on the all-decade 1st team while dirk is on the 2nd. not to mention 4 time 50-40-90 compared to dirk doing it once.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ZesF2ioEE

[Silver&Black]

:corn:

[Huey Freeman]

i'm not sure how people can say _irk was better than stevie. nash has the advantage in mvps (2-1), owned dirk head to head in his prime and is on the all-decade 1st team while dirk is on the 2nd. not to mention 4 time 50-40-90 compared to dirk doing it once.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ZesF2ioEE

How many finals did Nash lead his team in compared to Dirk?

[DAF86]

Sorry son, I tired those mavfags long time ago.

[Amarelooms]

Son have you lost your damn mind?

[Xylus]

When they were both in their primes, you could make the argument that Nash was better. But Dirk has a superior body of work for a longer period of time.

[ambchang]

Is OP crazy?

Dirk is the 4th/5th best player post Jordan.

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Lebron
4/5. Dirk/Garnett

[scanry]

Who you kidding? Kobe is better than Dirk & Garnett.

[manufan10]

NBA Championships: Dirk: 1 Nash: 0
Finals MVP: Dirk: 1 Nash: 0
Finals appearances: Dirk: 2 Nash: 0

[Buddy Mignon]

Who you kidding? Kobe is better than Dirk & Garnett.

Lol... these niggas try hard to knock Kobe down. Just keep chasing Jeffrey down, Kobe.

[JMarkJohns]

I argued Nash's value on these boards more than anyone. With his shooting percentages, ability to improvise, and vision and passing, since Jordan you may not have a better player to orchestrate getting the ball in the hoop efficiently. Many of his flaws were as much flaws of D'Antoni, where the system was built for speed and beauty, but the playoffs aren't a Formula One track. They had no ability to cope with the rugged, physical style of the playoffs.

He was limited beyond holding the ball, being practically useless without it in his hands. His shot was mediocre in spot up, he was too old/fragile to move without the ball, and he had below average rebounding and well below average defense. While much of this could have been hidden by better scheme (see Gentry 2010), for his prime years, his ceiling was always stunted.

I've seen a lot of Dirk, but not enough to claim I'm an authority on him, but where this likely is decided isn't Finals appearances or Titles, but that historically, and much more recently, if your best player is a sub-6-4 guard, you're ceiling is nowhere near the levels of teams whose best player is 6-10 or better.

Give Nash Jason Kidds body and he likely is the best PG since Magic. Give Nash Magic height and he might be the greatest PG ever.

But he wasn't 6-4, 6-9, or 7-0. He was 6-2 with a degenerative back condition on a team whose frontcourt superstar was always injured and a knucklehead, playing for a coach who emphasized some important things at the expense of the most important things.

Give that 2007 team Gentry, and who knows.

But that's way to many "What Ifs" for any actual justification of Nash's career being labeled better than Dirk's. Not when both were All-NBAers and MVPs.

The Title thing is overrated as an argument. Payton and Kidd coattailing late doesn't all of a sudden elevate them over Stockton.

But even without Titles, Nash's prime was too short when compared with Dirk's, and while his peak may have been equal, if not better, the nature of the game and skillsets, you take the athletic 7-footer with elite guard skills than a hobbled, aged PG with elite PG skills.

[Clipper Nation]

Who you kidding? Kobe is better than Dirk & Garnett.
:lmao No, a role player is not better than two franchise stars.

[Malik Hairston]

I argued Nash's value on these boards more than anyone. With his shooting percentages, ability to improvise, and vision and passing, since Jordan you may not have a better player to orchestrate getting the ball in the hoop efficiently. Many of his flaws were as much flaws of D'Antoni, where the system was built for speed and beauty, but the playoffs aren't a Formula One track. They had no ability to cope with the rugged, physical style of the playoffs.

He was limited beyond holding the ball, being practically useless without it in his hands. His shot was mediocre in spot up, he was too old/fragile to move without the ball, and he had below average rebounding and well below average defense. While much of this could have been hidden by better scheme (see Gentry 2010), for his prime years, his ceiling was always stunted.

I've seen a lot of Dirk, but not enough to claim I'm an authority on him, but where this likely is decided isn't Finals appearances or Titles, but that historically, and much more recently, if your best player is a sub-6-4 guard, you're ceiling is nowhere near the levels of teams whose best player is 6-10 or better.

Give Nash Jason Kidds body and he likely is the best PG since Magic. Give Nash Magic height and he might be the greatest PG ever.

But he wasn't 6-4, 6-9, or 7-0. He was 6-2 with a degenerative back condition on a team whose frontcourt superstar was always injured and a knucklehead, playing for a coach who emphasized some important things at the expense of the most important things.

Give that 2007 team Gentry, and who knows.

But that's way to many "What Ifs" for any actual justification of Nash's career being labeled better than Dirk's. Not when both were All-NBAers and MVPs.

The Title thing is overrated as an argument. Payton and Kidd coattailing late doesn't all of a sudden elevate them over Stockton.

But even without Titles, Nash's prime was too short when compared with Dirk's, and while his peak may have been equal, if not better, the nature of the game and skillsets, you take the athletic 7-footer with elite guard skills than a hobbled, aged PG with elite PG skills.

Good post, tbh..

While I would definitely take Nowitzki over Nash, I have noticed that Nash has become underrated due to the controversy of his MVPs(as much as I dislike him), tbh..

Overall, as a player, he was easily better than Kidd or Payton, but gets downplayed due to NBA fan's overrating of "2-way" ability, along with the controversial MVP voting..while being White helps him avoid criticism for controversial off-court issues, I find it interesting that his game and on-court reputation hasn't been inflated by being White, unlike somebody like Larry Bird..

From the 90s-Present, the only PG I'd take over him is Stockton, and I'd consider Chris Paul, too(Curry, as well, if he maintains this pace for a few more years)..

[lefty]

How is 2 way overrated?

[Malik Hairston]

It's overrated when people assume that a 2-way player automatically has more impact than an elite offensive player..

I've seen people argue that Klay Thompson > Harden this year, for example, because Thompson plays both ways, and Harden doesn't, which is ignoring that Harden's offensive impact is much greater than the former's "2-way" impact..

It's like saying Elton Brand > prime Dirk, for example..

[lefty]

It's overrated when people assume that a 2-way player automatically has more impact than an elite offensive player..

I've seen people argue that Klay Thompson > Harden this year, for example, because Thompson plays both ways, and Harden doesn't, which is ignoring that Harden's offensive impact is much greater than the former's "2-way" impact..

It's like saying Elton Brand > prime Dirk, for example..
Good point tbh


But the problem is that Nash is such a defensive liability that Enrique tore his ass up several times in the playoffs.
Team defense starts with the backcourt, so the impact of his shitty D was huge during the playoffs

[scanry]

:lmao No, a role player is not better than two franchise stars.

I wouldn't consider Garnett as a franchise player tbh. He needed too many pieces for them to contend.

Dirk on the other hand, not so much. Dirk just like Duncan has adapted to new teams and systems over the years (he went from Finley/Nash to Terry/Howard to Kidd/Marion to Ellis/Parsons).

He was called a choker before he rang despite wining 50+ games every season.

[JMarkJohns]

In addition, PG defense is overrated, as much of a PGs ability to keep his man out of the lane stems from the defensive scheme and overall quality of NBA defensive big man behind. Give Prime Nash Prime Camby and more guards are pulling up for contested Js than are getting into the lane.

Magic wasn't a very good defender, but he had Kareem behind him to alter shots.

[JMarkJohns]

Not sure how well Peak KJ does in modern NBA since he was a mediocre 3-point shooter, but I'd still take pre-Knee Injury Kevin Johnson over Nash, but I watched two-way Kidd never lead the Suns out of the 1st Round year after year, and I watched only-offense Nash lead a team of waiver-bait Bell, youngster Barbosa, trade-bait Jones, waiver-bait House, waiver-bait Thomas, trade-bait Diaw, and All-Star Marion to game 6 of the WCF in a tough Western Conference.

Without the shitty East, Kidd would likely go down as the most disappointing PG of the last 25 years. He got fortunate he got to playoff pad his résumé on sub-50-win eastern conference playoff fodder.

Say what you want of Nash, his 4 WCF appearances always meant more to me than Kidd's Finals appearances. Least ways his Nets appearances.

[Thread]

Say what you want of Nash, his 4 WCF appearances always meant more to me than Kidd's Finals appearances. Least ways his Nets appearances.

Nash always quit then,,,Kidd did not.

[m>s]

Steve Trash tbh.

just kidding, but putting him over dirk is going full retard.

[Raven]

2way player > elite offensive player in any playoff game tbh

[lmbebo]

Both great players, but if I had to choose who to build around, I'd build around Dirk over Nash.

[lefty]

In addition, PG defense is overrated, as much of a PGs ability to keep his man out of the lane stems from the defensive scheme and overall quality of NBA defensive big man behind. Give Prime Nash Prime Camby and more guards are pulling up for contested Js than are getting into the lane.

Magic wasn't a very good defender, but he had Kareem behind him to alter shots.
No, I dont think PG defense is overrated

If you have a human turnstile like Nash, it forces the big man to commit and leave his man open

And its not like Nash had Kareem in his team anyway :lol

[Jodelo]

:lmao:lol

[SpurSwag]

2way player > elite offensive player in any playoff game tbh

That's just not true, like someone said 2 way players have become pretty overrated. A prime dirk is a much better building block for a contender than Marc gasol for example, yes gasol is gonna play solid and occasionally great on offense and consistently great on d, but he's not gonna be transcendent. Even thoufh dirk has never been a great defender, he carried that 2011 team because they covered his weaknesses and allowed his transcendent talent to lead them. 1 way superstars (and I mean legit superstars) > solid 2 way players

[ambchang]

Good post, tbh..

While I would definitely take Nowitzki over Nash, I have noticed that Nash has become underrated due to the controversy of his MVPs(as much as I dislike him), tbh..

Overall, as a player, he was easily better than Kidd or Payton, but gets downplayed due to NBA fan's overrating of "2-way" ability, along with the controversial MVP voting..while being White helps him avoid criticism for controversial off-court issues, I find it interesting that his game and on-court reputation hasn't been inflated by being White, unlike somebody like Larry Bird..

From the 90s-Present, the only PG I'd take over him is Stockton, and I'd consider Chris Paul, too(Curry, as well, if he maintains this pace for a few more years)..

You are making it sound like Payton sucked offensively, when he was a career 16/7 guy, with peaks of 24/9, and had a career ORtg of 111, with a peak of 118 with the slow and unwatchable mid-90s.

Jason Kidd had peaks of 17/11, with ORtg of high 100's and low 110's.

Yes, Nash had 18/12 seasons, and ORtg peaks of mid 120's, and is a much better shooter, but his offense isn't that much further ahead than Jason Kidd or Gary Payton that it could eclipse the difference in their defense.

[Franklin]

even gangbanger got a regular season MVP and he hasn't achieved shit for his team yet since he joined the league.

[Mori Chu]

I loved Steve Nash and watched his entire prime in Phoenix. But I would begrudgingly admit that Dirk has had the better career. Two finals, one title, lots more scoring, rebounding, better at taking over games, more terrifying at his peak; he's ahead despite Nash's 2 MVPs. Both are great players, of course.

[sook]

SteveN Nash is criminally underrated nowadays, some people claim that Paul is a better all time PG which is insane...

When it comes to the Dirk argument however, its cut and closed, Dirk was a greater legend at the end of the day. The gap wasn't wide, but it was still there and it shouldn't really be a question.

[HemisfairArena]

Where are Roy Tarpley and Derek Harper when you need them,,,huh, Maverick fan?

[mkurts]

Nash is great, but nowhere near Dirk and its not even close.

Dirk is a franchise player, Nash is not

[scanry]

SteveN Nash is criminally underrated nowadays, some people claim that Paul is a better all time PG which is insane...

When it comes to the Dirk argument however, its cut and closed, Dirk was a greater legend at the end of the day. The gap wasn't wide, but it was still there and it shouldn't really be a question.

You're are also missing how clutch Steve Nash was back in his prime. He could close out games and unlike Paul, was never afraid of taking the last shot.

Paul is extremely overrated due to his nice guy persona. BTW by gambling and stat padding for steals doesn't make you a good defender. Parker for some reason has owned that ass.

[Jenks]

It's close, I'd go with Dirk although there is no greater individual honor than MVP. There's no right answer.

[sook]

You're are also missing how clutch Steve Nash was back in his prime. He could close out games and unlike Paul, was never afraid of taking the last shot.

Paul is extremely overrated due to his nice guy persona. BTW by gambling and stat padding for steals doesn't make you a good defender. Parker for some reason has owned that ass.

Even after his peak, on the downside of his career he was doing things I didn't think possible. That year where the Suns went full retard and traded for Shaq (08?), they played the Spurs in the 1st round and I remember how insanely clutch Nash was, just carrying his team even though they ended up losing. I know Spur fans will resent me for this, and I'll admit that Phoenix was SA's bitch throughout those years, but 07' was theirs to have had a couple of situations regarding the league standing rules been different. I seriously think that they could have won the real NBA finals, the WCF (since the sacrificial lamb was coming out of the east..) that year.

[scanry]

Even after his peak, on the downside of his career he was doing things I didn't think possible. That year where the Suns went full retard and traded for Shaq (08?), they played the Spurs in the 1st round and I remember how insanely clutch Nash was, just carrying his team even though they ended up losing. I know Spur fans will resent me for this, and I'll admit that Phoenix was SA's bitch throughout those years, but 07' was theirs to have had a couple of situations regarding the league standing rules been different. I seriously think that they could have won the real NBA finals, the WCF (since the sacrificial lamb was coming out of the east..) that year.

That's a big if as Game 5 could've gone either way tbh. The Spurs should've won game 4 too. They had a big lead entering the 4th and they just unraveled.

[Sean Cagney]

Steve Trash tbh.

just kidding, but putting him over dirk is going full retard.

I agree. In his Prime Nash and MVP type player and he ran the O very well! Was an overall threat you had to watch out for, Pop called him the head of the snake and you had to cut it off! You keyed on Nash. All time though? Dirks body of work and longevity all times is superior! I love Nash and he had a great career but Dirk to me is a legend and up there with the best after MJ like someone said. Dirk got this one, sorry OP.
Nash is great, but nowhere near Dirk and its not even close.

Dirk is a franchise player, Nash is not

Nash was close from 04-07 Days, after that not so much. He had a window where he was on a different level, Dirk though sustained it alot longer and lead a team to a title with an unbelievable title run in 011, he was on fire the whole playoffs and had one of the best runs I have seen personally.

[Sean Cagney]

That's a big if as Game 5 could've gone either way tbh. The Spurs should've won game 4 too. They had a big lead entering the 4th and they just unraveled.

That game 4 my power went out with us up like 3 or so in the 4th, when it came back on that game we were down and Horry's foul I saw. They blew that game bigtime, annual Spurs in control at the time playoff game they should have won but choked, they had those a few times a year in that title run era. I love the Spurs but they would BLOW some big leads at home in playoff games to scare you or just flat out lose. 03 they blew game one against Dallas and had no business blowing game 5 against Dallas at home up 17 without Dirk, then the LA series as well up 20 some odd points and 16 heading intot he 4th game 5, nearly gave that game and series away in 03. Spurs routinely would blow that big lead in those days, hell they still do it from time to time and scare the SHIT outta you.


Even after his peak, on the downside of his career he was doing things I didn't think possible. That year where the Suns went full retard and traded for Shaq (08?), they played the Spurs in the 1st round and I remember how insanely clutch Nash was, just carrying his team even though they ended up losing. I know Spur fans will resent me for this, and I'll admit that Phoenix was SA's bitch throughout those years, but 07' was theirs to have had a couple of situations regarding the league standing rules been different. I seriously think that they could have won the real NBA finals, the WCF (since the sacrificial lamb was coming out of the east..) that year.
I disagree because the Spurs were in control pretty much in game 4 until they choked at the end of it and should have been up 3-1, it was that CLOSE! The series would have went 7 no doubt or should have but honestly the Spurs blew that game 4 and they are in control up 3-1. They stole one in PHX game one and took game 3 and should have had game 4 but pulled their annual playoff game how did they choke it away and let PHX back in the series and tied it up. I think PHX maybe wins game 5 if their guys are in there and the Spurs win game 6. That might have went 7 games no joke and it's a tossup.

[100%duncan]

The fuck?

[DMC]

0 and forever is not better than Dirk. You cannot carry a team like Dirk did to the Finals, win finals MVP and be bested by a point guard who couldn't get over the hump. It can't happen.

[Phillip]

SteveN Nash is criminally underrated nowadays, some people claim that Paul is a better all time PG which is insane...

When it comes to the Dirk argument however, its cut and closed, Dirk was a greater legend at the end of the day. The gap wasn't wide, but it was still there and it shouldn't really be a question.

best take ive seen yet :tu

nash gets ridiculously underrated and underappreciated

[Phillip]

2way player > elite offensive player in any playoff game tbh

lol kevin garnett

[m>s]

It's because of his laker days that he's getting underrated. It's best to just retire before people start to remember the bad instead of the good. It's gonna happen to kobe too.

[Phillip]

Team defense starts with the backcourt, so the impact of his shitty D was huge during the playoffs

is this a joke? or are you intentionally being a moron of extreme proportions?

everyone with a brain knows that team defense always starts with the center, as he is far and away the most important piece to any good defense.

[lefty]

is this a joke? or are you intentionally being a moron of extreme proportions?

everyone with a brain knows that team defense always starts with the center, as he is far and away the most important piece to any good defense.


Is the center guarding Parker?

Is it the center's fault if Enrique gets in the paint


So yeah it starts there

[scanry]

Is the center guarding Parker?

Is it the center's fault if Enrique gets in the paint

So yeah it starts there

Don't forget Parker got abused by Devin Harris in the 2000's. He was our weaklink in 2006 tbh.

[lefty]

Don't forget Parker got abused by Devin Harris in the 2000's. He was our weaklink in 2006 tbh.
Exactly

[DMC]

It depends on what you mean by "starts with". There's a reason a center is call a defensive anchor, and I've never seen a PG called that. The ball might start up top so from that perspective the PG is likely the first person to provide a traffic cone for the ball handler, but I wouldn't misstate that as saying the defense starts with the backcourt.

[Arcadian]

It depends on what you mean by "starts with". There's a reason a center is call a defensive anchor, and I've never seen a PG called that. The ball might start up top so from that perspective the PG is likely the first person to provide a traffic cone for the ball handler, but I wouldn't misstate that as saying the defense starts with the backcourt.

Yeah, "first line of defense" is the appropriate term for guards. Big men are the anchors with more responsibility overall (boxing out, rebounding, etc).

[DMC]

Yeah, "first line of defense" is the appropriate term for guards. Big men are the anchors with more responsibility overall (boxing out, rebounding, etc).
Yeah, a good house starts with the front door.

[Thread]

Yeah, a good house starts with the front door.

Bend over. I'll give it to you in the fuckin' back door.

[DMC]

Bend over. I'll give it to you in the fuckin' back door.
Feeling all spiffy since you're now 4 and a bunch?

[mavsfan1000]

Nash plays worse D than Dirk. And point guard defense is huge. It's the difference between disrupting a teams offense or not.

[phoenix219]

Steve was a bad one on one defender, but had solid team defense and positioning, knew how to funnel opposing players into his bigman (when he had one), and was great at taking a charge.

After 2010, we wasted 2-3 years and the rest of Nash's career on the worst "reload" around a star player I have ever seen....

[ambchang]

Steve was a bad one on one defender, but had solid team defense and positioning, knew how to funnel opposing players into his bigman (when he had one), and was great at taking a charge.

After 2010, we wasted 2-3 years and the rest of Nash's career on the worst "reload" around a star player I have ever seen....

Nash's team defense was arguable worse than his man defense. He just floats around with no purpose.

[spurraider21]

the worst "reload"
RJ

[spurraider21]

Nash's team defense was arguable worse than his man defense. He just floats around with no purpose.
Seriously. Suns fans use the unquantifiable team defense bullshit to make him sound better than he was

[Killakobe81]

Nash is underrated by some overrated by more better career resume than Paul but Dirk is clearly the greater player. Dirk has a case over KG, in conversation as 2nd best of of his era top 5 pf all-time. Only top 5 Nash is in is goat shooter conversation.

[sook]

Nash is underrated by some overrated by more better career resume than Paul but Dirk is clearly the greater player. Dirk has a case over KG, in conversation as 2nd best of of his era top 5 pf all-time. Only top 5 Nash is in is goat shooter conversation.

Garnett is in no way better than Dirk...not even a damn question. You're talking about a guy that was considered the sole star of his team and had one of the best comeback stories ever. Fuck the mavs btw, have to get that out there. But went to the finals in 06, lost possibly due to Wade getting Harden treatment on steroids. Go 0-6 or something to start the next season, still finish with one of the all time team records. Lose in the 1st round. I can't imagine the type of pressure or humiliation someone faces in that situation. Trade for Kidd, fuck up for a couple of years. Come back with some proper moves (credit to Cuban for always trying to improve), and goes inhuman in the post season, taking down the team that fucked him over--- only now competing against a far more talented team boasting the best player on the planet , all while carrying most of the weight on his shoulders. That is legendary.

KG was a perennial loser that teamed up with a prime allen, pierce, and one of the best defensive conglomerates ever. I have no idea what you are smoking...its not even a question that Dirk >>>>> KG

For all time PGs:
Magic
Stockton
Nash
Kidd?

[midnightpulp]

There's no comparison. Use any metric you want, the eye-test, whatever, and it will show that Dirk is a tier above Nash.

Dirk is the most underrated superstar of the post-Jordan generation and, all things considered, is no doubt a top 15 player of all-time. Detractors will cite his (lack of) defense, but when you examine his RAPM, Dirk was never a defensive liability. He just wasn't dominant defensively, like Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, Sheed, etc. Nash, on the other hand, was typically a -2.0 to -3.0 defensively throughout his career. A pretty awful mark.

That's not to say Nash wasn't a great player. If he could play defense, he'd easily be the best PG since Magic, but unfortunately that's not the case.

[Killakobe81]

Garnett is in no way better than Dirk...not even a damn question. You're talking about a guy that was considered the sole star of his team and had one of the best comeback stories ever. Fuck the mavs btw, have to get that out there. But went to the finals in 06, lost possibly due to Wade getting Harden treatment on steroids. Go 0-6 or something to start the next season, still finish with one of the all time team records. Lose in the 1st round. I can't imagine the type of pressure or humiliation someone faces in that situation. Trade for Kidd, fuck up for a couple of years. Come back with some proper moves (credit to Cuban for always trying to improve), and goes inhuman in the post season, taking down the team that fucked him over--- only now competing against a far more talented team boasting the best player on the planet , all while carrying most of the weight on his shoulders. That is legendary.

KG was a perennial loser that teamed up with a prime allen, pierce, and one of the best defensive conglomerates ever. I have no idea what you are smoking...its not even a question that Dirk >>>>> KG

For all time PGs:
Magic
Stockton
Nash
Kidd?


I appreciate all that ...so you agree he has a case over KG? I think when this was debated a year or two back I was leaning KG but after watching Dirk for 82 games since 2009 ...I think I'm squarely in Dirk's corner. That being said (not just at you) I hate when people act like a good debate question is so one sided because you are on said side. I won't respond to all (since I agree it's Dirk) but without Tyson and RC all Dirk playoffs ended in bitter losses or flameouts. Yes KG needed the Big 3 but Dirk needed career years from plenty of guys to ring.

[100%duncan]

I appreciate all that ...so you agree he has a case over KG? I think when this was debated a year or two back I was leaning KG but after watching Dirk for 82 games since 2009 ...I think I'm squarely in Dirk's corner. That being said (not just at you) I hate when people act like a good debate question is so one sided because you are on said side. I won't respond to all (since I agree it's Dirk) but without Tyson and RC all Dirk playoffs ended in bitter losses or flameouts. Yes KG needed the Big 3 but Dirk needed career years from plenty of guys to ring.

All good points but you can say that to any all time great. Duncan needing pop, drob, big 3. Lebron going to Miami. Jordan and his Pippen. Shaq with Phil and Kobe to each other etc2..

But the point stands that Dirk carried that team to a ring as the clear cut alpha, #1 like what an all time great would do. Now for KG, he wasn't the clear #1 option, heck his defense was overrated due to the fact that that celtics team was so stacked on defense.