The 10's: The age of passing

[ambchang]

2010's: This should be known as the advanced age of offensive sophistication.

The game is now based on passing, where ball movement and teamwork is causing defensive breakdowns, and blessing us, the viewers, with the purest form of basketball.

The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!

In 2014, the average NBA team have 1804 assists leading to 3093 FG, or in other words, 58% of the FGs are assisted. The top team had 2041 assists on 3061 FGs, that's 66.7% of the field goals assisted.

Looking back, in 2004, those numbers are 1747/2871/60.8% for an average team, and 2152/3103 for 69.4%

1994, known as the worst year of the ISO ball era, 2000/3225/62% and 2179/3207/67.9 respectively

Run and gun 1984? 2148/3566/60.2% and 2192/3344/65.6%

Such sophistication.

[Thread]

It's the age of the rockhead and their protection under political correctness doctrines. 29 teams practice this, devoutly. I'm just the unfortunate that the 1 who doesn't is mine enemy.

[apalisoc_9]

OP is being a dummy on purpose I guess.

[Thread]

OP is being a dummy on purpose I guess.

I know, and I'm shocked, he usually has an air about him.

[Killakobe81]

2010's: This should be known as the advanced age of offensive sophistication.

The game is now based on passing, where ball movement and teamwork is causing defensive breakdowns, and blessing us, the viewers, with the purest form of basketball.

The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!

In 2014, the average NBA team have 1804 assists leading to 3093 FG, or in other words, 58% of the FGs are assisted. The top team had 2041 assists on 3061 FGs, that's 66.7% of the field goals assisted.

Looking back, in 2004, those numbers are 1747/2871/60.8% for an average team, and 2152/3103 for 69.4%

1994, known as the worst year of the ISO ball era, 2000/3225/62% and 2179/3207/67.9 respectively

Run and gun 1984? 2148/3566/60.2% and 2192/3344/65.6%

Such sophistication.

Amb with the not so subtle goods but some STILL won't get it.
Shots fired!

Spurs and Mavs to some degree play such great ball. I think only the Lecheat were even close but sometimes became iso and pnr heavy. RC and Pop should teach clinics and charge a million for Brooks, McHale, Scott etc to attend.

[ambchang]

Passin is more complex now for sure though. The ways to screen and get people open is more than what teams did in the 80s and 90s. Part of that is due to the rules opening up the perimeter to allow better movement (big ball and people) but parrot that is due to necessity because of better team defenses with less restrictionson illegal defenses.

That said, players have always passed.

[lefty]

Lol at sophistication

It has more to do with the implementation of zone D

[spurraider21]

6

[Leetonidas]

I don't think using assists as the end all be all stat for offensive sophistication makes much sense tbh

[Medvedenko]

I agree an evolution has happened. The game when played through passing, screens and picks is a lot more fluid and when all 5 players are threats (not in the traditional, they can all break a dude down one on one) but through spacing and specializing. This is what the Spurs have been able to do when their traditional one on one threats Duncan, Manu and Parker have regressed due to mileage and wear and tear. I swear, last year's Spurs run as a bball fan was the best I've seen in a long time.

[Thread]

I swear, last year's Spurs run as a bball fan was the best I've seen in a long time.

All it lacked was Amy making an encore.

[Ignignokt]

All it lacked was Amy making an encore.

And kobe bricking err shot for every liverspot on your wretched body

[Thread]

And kobe bricking err shot for every liverspot on your wretched body

You'll get those spots as well.

[Ignignokt]

You'll get those spots as well.

My star wont dedicate a brick for each spot though.

[Seventyniner]

I wonder if the numbers would be any different if NBA scorers were more strict with assists as in Europe.

[hyhy]

2010's: This should be known as the advanced age of offensive sophistication.

The game is now based on passing, where ball movement and teamwork is causing defensive breakdowns, and blessing us, the viewers, with the purest form of basketball.

The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!

In 2014, the average NBA team have 1804 assists leading to 3093 FG, or in other words, 58% of the FGs are assisted. The top team had 2041 assists on 3061 FGs, that's 66.7% of the field goals assisted.

Looking back, in 2004, those numbers are 1747/2871/60.8% for an average team, and 2152/3103 for 69.4%

1994, known as the worst year of the ISO ball era, 2000/3225/62% and 2179/3207/67.9 respectively

Run and gun 1984? 2148/3566/60.2% and 2192/3344/65.6%

Such sophistication.

Well, using assists/made field goals % can have different meanings. For example, a high % may just mean that individually, the league is weak, people cant finish isolation plays and only can make open shots when their teammates passed them the ball.

Also, your stats look weird. Why does the top team in each era has less made field goals than the avg nba team?

[Raven]

:lol you start by saing that the passes don't even enter the boxscore and then ramble about how there is no difference in the assist column.. i mean ...

[ambchang]

Well, using assists/made field goals % can have different meanings. For example, a high % may just mean that individually, the league is weak, people cant finish isolation plays and only can make open shots when their teammates passed them the ball.

Also, your stats look weird. Why does the top team in each era has less made field goals than the avg nba team?

That is not possible.

We have already established the fact that 90s was nothing but ISO ball and the 10s was beautiful passing and teamwork. So the league being weak and must pass to score is counter to this established fact.

Top team means top assists to FGM ratio because that's what we are talking about.

[ambchang]

:lol you start by saing that the passes don't even enter the boxscore and then ramble about how there is no difference in the assist column.. i mean ...

Did I say passes don't enter the box score?

Assists happened by not passing?

[Raven]

Did I say passes don't enter the box score?

Assists happened by not passing?

"The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!"

[lefty]

There is more passing today because :

- zone D
- a lot more players who are not very skilled, so they are forced to pass the ball because hot potatoe :lol

[Killakobe81]

I agree an evolution has happened. The game when played through passing, screens and picks is a lot more fluid and when all 5 players are threats (not in the traditional, they can all break a dude down one on one) but through spacing and specializing. This is what the Spurs have been able to do when their traditional one on one threats Duncan, Manu and Parker have regressed due to mileage and wear and tear. I swear, last year's Spurs run as a bball fan was the best I've seen in a long time.

Best passing since mid 80s Lakers and Celts 2011 Mavs underrated as a great passing team but not quite on that level

[scanry]

Best passing since mid 80s Lakers and Celts 2011 Mavs underrated as a great passing team but not quite on that level

More than on offense, the 2011 Mavs zoned teams to death. Chandler played at an extremely high level that year. And Dirk was Dirk. I still think the Heat should've won that series though. They let game 2 slip away after up big in the 4th.

[hyhy]

That is not possible.

We have already established the fact that 90s was nothing but ISO ball and the 10s was beautiful passing and teamwork. So the league being weak and must pass to score is counter to this established fact.

Top team means top assists to FGM ratio because that's what we are talking about.

How is that a counter? Players in the past can iso better, so they made more field goals in isolation plays.
Also, I was talkin purely on your denominator. The field goals made per season for top teams are consistently less than those by the average team. Does that mean top nba teams score less than the average?

[Brazil]

"The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!"

:lol I guess now you get OP point

[ambchang]

Did I say passes don't enter the box score?

Assists happened by not passing?


"The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!"



http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/Point_over_your_head.jpg

[ambchang]

How is that a counter? Players in the past can iso better, so they made more field goals in isolation plays.
Also, I was talkin purely on your denominator. The field goals made per season for top teams are consistently less than those by the average team. Does that mean top nba teams score less than the average?

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

[hyhy]

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

Well, assists can come from isolation plays, den passing out at the end.
What I was trying to say was that a higher assist to made field goals rate may not mean that there was better passing and ball movement, but that the isolation play finishing is bad in that era.

And you still haven answered the 2nd part of my question, which questions your statistics. Top teams had less total field goals made than the average team. why? I asked that twice and you conveniently ignored it.

[Raven]

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

are you dumb or something? if anything, from those stats you should have gotten the fact that assist is not a meaningful stat when it comes to ball movement :lol.. kobe has plenty of assists and yet he is the most selfish and ballhogging player ever to play the game.. how come lol

[ambchang]

Well, assists can come from isolation plays, den passing out at the end.
What I was trying to say was that a higher assist to made field goals rate may not mean that there was better passing and ball movement, but that the isolation play finishing is bad in that era.

And wouldn't assists come from ball movement and finishing of play then? In an extreme situation, if a team scores every single point on ball movement, there should be 100% assists to FGM ratio because any points scored would have been a result of a pass that directly led to a score. While a team that scored every single point on isolation play would not have 100% assists to FGM ratio, because some points would be scored on iso kickouts, while others would be finished by the player on isolation play.

While pure iso ball does not mean a 0% assist to FGM ratio, it certainly would be less than 100%.


And you still haven answered the 2nd part of my question, which questions your statistics. Top teams had less total field goals made than the average team. why? I asked that twice and you conveniently ignored it.

Yes, it was answered:


Top team means top assists to FGM ratio because that's what we are talking about.

[Raven]

And wouldn't assists come from ball movement and finishing of play then? In an extreme situation, if a team scores every single point on ball movement, there should be 100% assists to FGM ratio because any points scored would have been a result of a pass that directly led to a score. While a team that scored every single point on isolation play would not have 100% assists to FGM ratio, because some points would be scored on iso kickouts, while others would be finished by the player on isolation play.

While pure iso ball does not mean a 0% assist to FGM ratio, it certainly would be less than 100%.



Yes, it was answered:

:lol no.

[ambchang]

are you dumb or something? if anything, from those stats you should have gotten the fact that assist is not a meaningful stat when it comes to ball movement :lol.. kobe has plenty of assists and yet he is the most selfish and ballhogging player ever to play the game.. how come lol

5 assist for a player with the four highest usage rate in NBA history is high?

You are also confusing the concept of team and individual statistics.

[ambchang]

:lol no.

Yes. Show me a team scoring with ball movement but no assist.

[Raven]

Yes. Show me a team scoring with ball movement but no assist.

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

[ambchang]

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

You do know we are talking about assists to FGM ratio, right?

[Raven]

You do know we are talking about assists to FGM ratio, right?

have i not been clear enough, or what's wrong that you can't understand?

[ambchang]

have i not been clear enough, or what's wrong that you can't understand?

The idea you just had counts as an assists.

I apologize, I misread it as the shooter gets a FT.

FYI:

This is an assist

c34FunRSbzA

[Raven]

The idea you just had counts as an assists.

I apologize, I misread it as the shooter gets a FT.

FYI:

This is an assist

c34FunRSbzA

i gave you an example of terrific ball movement that in your statistic is not counted, since it's only one of the many, you can therefore assume that the whole theory is flawed. Is it more clear now?

[ambchang]

i gave you an example of terrific ball movement that in your statistic is not counted, since it's only one of the many, you can therefore assume that the whole theory is flawed. Is it more clear now?

No, your example would result in an assist and a score.

[Brazil]

:lmao dat Raven dude

[Thread]

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

Sad, but true.

[ambchang]

Sad, but true.

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball_U_on_Assists-Canada_Generic_Article-18072.html


An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgement of the statistician, the last player's pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player's pass led to the field goal being made.

Too bad Thread, wrong again.

[Thread]

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball_U_on_Assists-Canada_Generic_Article-18072.html



Too bad Thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19320), wrong again.

Never disputed such.

[ElNono]

I don't get why assists would be a good metric for "ball movement", tbh... You can run a straight up ISO with a single kickout for a corner 3 and you're still running primarily an ISO offense with very little ball movement.

Same thing with a Stockton-Malone pick & roll (there will be an assist counted, but it's basically a two man game), or a Duncan 4-down that ends up with a kickout to Bowen in the corner.

Something like "passes per possession" would probably be a better metric.

[Raven]

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball_U_on_Assists-Canada_Generic_Article-18072.html



Too bad Thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19320), wrong again.

you know that's not how it works most of the time, right?

[jag]

lol at the tards who don't get the point of this thread.

Amchang makes a good point, but like Seventyniner said, I wonder how the numbers would look if they didn't gift away assists during Stockton's era. I don't think it would be a dramatic difference, but it would still alter the numbers.

[jag]

I also agree with what Nono said. Assist numbers are a flimsy way to try to explain the amount, or quality, of ball movement before the field goal.

[Killakobe81]

we seen players whore assists and it leads them nowhere. Great PG's and players move the ball without worry of who gets the assists. There are players that get mad at the extra pass because they dont get credit for "hockey assists". I made a point a while back that any focus on one stat shooting, rebounds or chucking for points is detrimental when you are doing it for individual glory over what is best for the team. Not passing ahead on a fast break so you can control the assist can be just as bad as chucking ...you are missing out on potential easy points.

[Killakobe81]

I also agree with what Nono said. Assist numbers are a flimsy way to try to explain the amount, or quality, of ball movement before the field goal.

Agreed. Kobe the other night played well and created plays but I still wouldnnt say that the Lakers ball movement was great. Better but assist numbers can be misleading.

[midnightpulp]

I don't get why assists would be a good metric for "ball movement", tbh... You can run a straight up ISO with a single kickout for a corner 3 and you're still running primarily an ISO offense with very little ball movement.

Same thing with a Stockton-Malone pick & roll (there will be an assist counted, but it's basically a two man game), or a Duncan 4-down that ends up with a kickout to Bowen in the corner.

Something like "passes per possession" would probably be a better metric.

It's not. The assist has been called the most overrated stat in basketball for a reason. Bird, for instance, was a far superior playmaker to John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, and other PGs not named Magic from that era, but you'd never know it if you judged them by their APG.

Assists are qualitative. One of those stats where "you need to watch the game" to determine if the player who recorded the assist actually contributed to the play or just dumped the ball off to an open shooter.

[Killakobe81]

Also players like rodamn with bulls and Love with Wolves ignore defensive assignments and rotations to whore for rebounds. those are bad plays too. (Pistons rodman almost never did that)

[ambchang]

you know that's not how it works most of the time, right?

How does it work most of the time?

[Raven]

How does it work most of the time?

the player that moved the ball do not get the assist. especially if it's on the perimeter, if it's in the post yes they can give it. This is not really the point though, my point was that you can't use assists as a measure for ball movement.

[ambchang]

the player that moved the ball do not get the assist. especially if it's on the perimeter, if it's in the post yes they can give it. This is not really the point though, my point was that you can't use assists as a measure for ball movement.

Why not, that's an assist. It has been and always will be an assist.

But yeah, assists does not measure ball movement, I don't dispute that.

[Chris]

I agree an evolution has happened. The game when played through passing, screens and picks is a lot more fluid and when all 5 players are threats (not in the traditional, they can all break a dude down one on one) but through spacing and specializing. This is what the Spurs have been able to do when their traditional one on one threats Duncan, Manu and Parker have regressed due to mileage and wear and tear. I swear, last year's Spurs run as a bball fan was the best I've seen in a long time.

Yet you still support the biggest chucker of all time. I don't get it.

[jimbo]

Why not, that's an assist. It has been and always will be an assist.

But yeah, assists does not measure ball movement, I don't dispute that.

So can you go ahead and state the point of this thread in one concise sentence then? I'm missing it after that concession.

[hater]

But yeah, assists does not measure ball movement, I don't dispute that.

goaline moved 30 yards. flag on the play :lol

[Medvedenko]

Yet you still support the biggest chucker of all time. I don't get it.

Game recognizes game. Also, there' still more ways to skin a cat.

[ambchang]

So can you go ahead and state the point of this thread in one concise sentence then? I'm missing it after that concession.


goaline moved 30 yards. flag on the play :lol

I really have to learn to use blue font.

[Franklin]

2nd chance scoring doesn't generate no assists and it happens all the time whatever style you play imho.

[hyhy]

And wouldn't assists come from ball movement and finishing of play then? In an extreme situation, if a team scores every single point on ball movement, there should be 100% assists to FGM ratio because any points scored would have been a result of a pass that directly led to a score. While a team that scored every single point on isolation play would not have 100% assists to FGM ratio, because some points would be scored on iso kickouts, while others would be finished by the player on isolation play.

While pure iso ball does not mean a 0% assist to FGM ratio, it certainly would be less than 100%.



Yes, it was answered:
OH so your top team is not the best team in the league, but the team with the best assist ratios. Wow so it means that the teams with better assist ratios score less than the average team throughout all the eras

[jimbo]

I really have to learn to use blue font.

Can you try writing a clear, concise, topic sentence out first? It might help, I'm a little slow.

I mean if you're just fucking around, then who cares? Why respond at all?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

You can't use assists to FGM to measure passing and ball/player movement. It's extremely flawed.

Passes per minute and feet traveled by a player per minute are the stats you'd be looking for and they're still flawed but a better indicator. Also, difficult to find stats for this for past seasons. If I remember correctly the Spurs led the league in both last season, but Bobcats, Lakers and Philly were in top 5 so take it for what it's worth.

[ambchang]

OH so your top team is not the best team in the league, but the team with the best assist ratios. Wow so it means that the teams with better assist ratios score less than the average team throughout all the eras

Could be, could be pace as well.