Pop landing a gutshot on Chinook...

[spurraider21]

Pop also flatly dismissed any notion that Danny Green (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/71944/danny-green) is comparable to Kawhi Leonard (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/132534/kawhi-leonard) as a defender, with a quick "He's not," before further explaining that "Danny's a good defender, a pretty good defender on the ball, but like most players he has to improve off the ball. He's advanced significantly since he first came here, he's doing better and better."

:lol... full article here

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/12/6/7346255/popovich-praises-brett-brown-flip-saunders

[Robz4000]

He's just keeping Green's ego in check. Just hope Green doesn't let it get to him when he's an FA.

[100%duncan]

Pop is apalisoc, confirmed.

[Hoops Czar]

Meh, Pop doesn't want to hand out 2 max contracts this offseason.

[spursparker9]

At least Danny's off ball defense is better than Gary Neal's :lol

[BillMc]

Meh, Pop doesn't want to hand out 2 max contracts this offseason.


Some truth here. :)

[loveforthegame]

Anyone hear from Chinook? Is he ok?

Pop. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

I agree with Pop

[testies]

Green saved his ass on Monta Ellis..

Pop doesn't really know that much, its his assistants anyways

[SpurPadre]

Green saved his ass on Monta Ellis..

Pop doesn't really know that much, its his assistants anyways

Oh yeah, Boylen' s a fucking Einstein.

[wildchild]

No surprise here, Leonard just does everything defensively.

No talking about defensive stats because even players like Harden could be defensive stat-hoarders sometimes, but Kawhi can shut down his man, deny or strip the ball, force into giving up the ball or a low-possession shot, nice help defender, great rebounder.

He's a mix of talent, versatility, physical gifts, attitude, and so good defensive instincts. That's why Pop says he's the best. It's as simple as that.

[Chinook]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

[RD2191]

Green has been consistently as good or even better than Kawhi for the Spurs. His offense may be way behind but his defense is better than Kawhis imo. Crazy how underrated he is. He is just as valuable as Kawhi imo. Maybe a tad bit less but not by much.

[100%duncan]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

I just realized this, shit. I feel bad for Green. Not because of his ego or his feelings, he's a big boy but for the $$$ the he's going to miss out because of Pop's comments. Dude is a good person and an elite player and doesn't deserved to be lowballed.

[UZER]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

It's also pops shtick to never give the media credit for any knowledge of basketball. Yes, a lot of times they ask stupid questions, but that's because he's trained them to never question his methods.

He treats the locals like shit.

[testies]

Fucking asshole Pop making a humble dude like Green miss out on millions of dollars, just because of selfish salary cap reasons

Pop is the worst person on the planet, the only person he doesn't bad mouth is Timmy Duncan, even legends like Manu gets downplayed on interviews a lot, like he is some erratic crazy player that only worked out because of Popovich, the genius. Who we all know is carried by players and copied all of Obradovic and Ivkovic set plays

[exstatic]

Fucking asshole Pop making a humble dude like Green miss out on millions of dollars, just because of selfish salary cap reasons

Pop is the worst person on the planet, the only person he doesn't bad mouth is Timmy Duncan, even legends like Manu gets downplayed on interviews a lot, like he is some erratic crazy player that only worked out because of Popovich, the genius. Who we all know is carried by players and copied all of Obradovic and Ivkovic set plays

Congratulations. You just swallowed the media image of Pop hook line and sinker.

The fact is, Pop treats each player exactly the way he needs to in order to get the most out of them, they all know it, and accept and embrace it, and your butthurt adds nothing to either side of the equation. A nicer Pop would mean fewer wins and LoBs.

[SpursFan86]

If I had two bullets and could kill Hitler and Popovich, I'd shoot Pop twice.

[RD2191]

If I had two bullets and could kill Hitler and Popovich, I'd shoot Pop twice.
:lol

[littlecoyotecoin]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

It can only be said that it would cost Green millions if Green would have achieved what he has without Pop's psychology. Green, without Pop as a rudder, might be unlikely to be in a position to capitalize. Looking at Pop as a loose cannon that is costing Danny money is obfuscating the value Pop has added to Danny in the first place.

[DarrinS]

I'll just go with what my eyes see.

[SupremeGuy]

If I had two bullets and could kill Hitler and Popovich, I'd shoot Pop twice.:rollin

[scanry]

Fucking asshole Pop making a humble dude like Green miss out on millions of dollars, just because of selfish salary cap reasons

Pop is the worst person on the planet, the only person he doesn't bad mouth is Timmy Duncan, even legends like Manu gets downplayed on interviews a lot, like he is some erratic crazy player that only worked out because of Popovich, the genius. Who we all know is carried by players and copied all of Obradovic and Ivkovic set plays

Isn't this timvp's stickh?

[313]

It can only be said that it would cost Green millions if Green would have achieved what he has without Pop's psychology. Green, without Pop as a rudder, might be unlikely to be in a position to capitalize. Looking at Pop as a loose canon that is costing Danny money is obfuscating the value Pop has added to Danny in the first place.exactly, Green was getting cut from the Cavs and playing in the D league before Pop gave him a chance to make any millions.

[Brunodf]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.
He did the same thing with Splitter calling him just a blue collar guy even though Splitter scored 15-18 points some nights off the bench or when TD was on street clothes...

I think Pop says this kind of stuff to challenge them to "prove him wrong" and improve their game...

[ChumpDumper]

Wait, does spurfan really think that a quote from a coach like that will influence the amount a free agent will be offered by GMs of opposing teams?

Has spurfan not heard of, I don't know, game tape?

[DesignatedT]

I just realized this, shit. I feel bad for Green. Not because of his ego or his feelings, he's a big boy but for the $$$ the he's going to miss out because of Pop's comments. Dude is a good person and an elite player and doesn't deserved to be lowballed.

:lol if you believe people on a message board know greens impact on defense than I'm sure other teams and coaches/gms do too. Green will get payed what he's worth. He isn't as good of a player as Leonard hence he won't get as much money. Lol

[littlecoyotecoin]

He did the same thing with Splitter calling him just a blue collar guy even though Splitter scored 15-18 points some nights off the bench or when TD was on street clothes...

I think Pop says this kind of stuff to challenge them to "prove him wrong" and improve their game...

And, it seems to work sometimes. I don't believe Splitter was making 9 mil (nor on pace to make) a year in Europe. But, we'll never know. We do know, that despite Pop's comments, Cheeago got paid so well here that many protested it as overpayment. Danny has done well, and will probably be rewarded just fine.

[Chinook]

Wait, does spurfan really think that a quote from a coach like that will influence the amount a free agent will be offered by GMs of opposing teams?

Has spurfan not heard of, I don't know, game tape?

Yeah, because rep doesn't influence GMs at all. Totally didn't get Klay a max deal he didn't deserve...

[ginobilized]

Kawhi's defensive ceiling is somewhere near the Scottie Pippen realm. Danny Green is great and is needing some improvement, but, he's very close to his ceiling imho.
Sure, Pop is employing some psychology, but, he knows a thing or two and is being pretty honest in that assessment.

Or, put another way....LeBron never got visibly bummed out in the Finals when Danny Green entered the game.

[exstatic]

Yeah, because rep doesn't influence GMs at all. Totally didn't get Klay a max deal he didn't deserve...

Not a good example. You're trying to say that Danny will be underpaid by another team by showing a team overpaying their own player? Player overrating happens all the time, especially by teams who are not attractive FA destinations. Player underrating, based on NBA rotation minutes? Not so much. About the only thing that can stop another team from bidding on someone else's player are serious character issues. See: Blatche, Andray.

[Raven]

:lol if you believe people on a message board know greens impact on defense than I'm sure other teams and coaches/gms do too. Green will get payed what he's worth. He isn't as good of a player as Leonard hence he won't get as much money. Lol

it's really just an issue of age, if green was younger, he'd get the max and at least a mansion with a bunch of hookers pleasuring him at all times

[spurraider21]

Wait, does spurfan really think that a quote from a coach like that will influence the amount a free agent will be offered by GMs of opposing teams?

Has spurfan not heard of, I don't know, game tape?


Yeah, because rep doesn't influence GMs at all. Totally didn't get Klay a max deal he didn't deserve...
:corn:

curious to see how long Chump can string chinook along

[Expert]

At least Danny's off ball defense is better than Gary Neal's :lol

yes but Gary can hit them skins faster.

[Expert]

KL is an elite defender. Danny is a really good one.

[spurraider21]

KL is an elite defender. Danny is a really good one.
Relatively speaking?

[Expert]

everything is based on my theories.

[Mr Bones]

Green was cut by a terrible Cleveland team, and picked up by the Spurs... suffice to say, that move has earned and will earn Danny millions of dollars. It was the best thing that ever happened to him.

[wildchild]

Kawhi's defensive ceiling is somewhere near the Scottie Pippen realm. Danny Green is great and is needing some improvement, but, he's very close to his ceiling imho.
Sure, Pop is employing some psychology, but, he knows a thing or two and is being pretty honest in that assessment.

Agreed. People here overrate on-ball defense and forget that a really good defense is a balance between on and off the ball defense.
That's why Kawhi is the best.

Pop doesn't discredit Green's defense but he genuinely thinks is vital for the team that Danny improves his off-ball defense.
If Kawhi takes the opposite best player like Lebron or Durant, Danny will play off the ball a lot and needs to improve that area of his game.

[Mr Bones]

Pop starts Green, so clearly he doesn't undervalue him. He STARTS him on a championship caliber team. After he was cut by a lottery level Cavaliers team.

[SpursFan86]

Advanced metrics (something FOs are using more and more these days) and actually watching Green play point to him being an elite defender and great role player. He's going to get offers regardless of what Pop says about him.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, because rep doesn't influence GMs at all. Totally didn't get Klay a max deal he didn't deserve...Which of his coach's quotes got him the max?

[ElNono]

I think Pop is mostly talking about "doing your defensive work early" and "attention to detail". Danny is probably the best defender we have one on one, that is, when the opposing player is already in it's spot and comfortable with the ball. He has the length to force players to drive, he can block or swipe at the ball successfully if they do drive around him, but I think what Pop is talking about is the off the ball defense: preventing your man from getting to their sweet spots, working through screens to beat your man to the spot, that kind of stuff. It's not uncommon to see Danny having to catch up to his guy, be it running out to a shooter in the corner, or after getting stuck on a screen, IMO.

It's really nitpicking, Danny has evolved into a great defender, really, and if Pop wants more from him is because he feels he can get that from Danny. You would never hear him saying anything like that about Beli, because he already knows Beli can't get anywhere near that level.

[spursfaninla]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

This is corroborates by my own evaluations of the defensive contributions of the players in the OK series after watching game 6 several times.

In any event, feeling sorry for Green, that he is not given credit, and particularly thinking Green deserves more money, etc, demonstrates Green fanboy status and biased views TBH.

As others have said, even if those takes were true, as a spurs fan I put the team's interest first and overpaying green would be stupid.

Green was given a chance by the spurs when he had been cut by terrible teams and been bouncing around the D league. He as been given a staring role on the Spurs when he would have otherwise been out of the NBA. He has a good salary, and is old enough that he has essentially no upside. He did great and feeling sorry for him or feeling he has been mistreated shows you are a green fan over a spurs fan, and I simply can't trust an objective application of an otherwise objective methodology.

[ElNono]

:lol Chinook is a huge Green homer, this shouldn't be news, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that. That doesn't automatically mean that any previous work he did was dishonest or anything like that.

tbh, there's little room for objectivity in sports... there's always a bias on reputation, fandom, etc... raw numbers alone never paint a complete picture, so filling the gap always takes some creativity that's bound to be influenced. It's just another opinion though, again, nothing inherently wrong with that.

[Malik Hairston]

While I agree that Kawhi's defensive ceiling is higher, his physical abilities/traits are overwhelming and pretty rare, I do think he benefits greatly from aesthetics, tbh..he has "the look" of an intimidating defensive player and he has more defensive highlights, due to his freakish arms/hands(like his legendary strip on Westbrook in game 6)..

Looking at the metrics, you could easily argue that Danny Green has been the best perimeter defender in the NBA this season..his adjusted defensive on/off is as good as any perimeter defender, and his opposition's production against him has been ridiculously low, so far this season..even looking at the raw numbers, his steals/blocks numbers have been very impressive..

Green's D, like Splitter's, isn't necessarily aesthetically pleasing, though..he doesn't physically harass opponents like Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen, he doesn't have Kawhi or Pippen-like freakish attributes, etc..Splitter is easily a better all-around defender than Duncan, for example, but won't receive the credit due to his style of defense..Pop also constantly downplays Splitter's impact, too:lol..

I don't agree with Chinook about Pop costing Green money, though..it's 2014, every team(other than maybe the Lakers:lol) thoroughly utilizes advanced metrics nowadays, and Green's are as good as any perimeter defender in the league..

[Malik Hairston]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

This is corroborates by my own evaluations of the defensive contributions of the players in the OK series after watching game 6 several times.

In any event, feeling sorry for Green, that he is not given credit, and particularly thinking Green deserves more money, etc, demonstrates Green fanboy status and biased views TBH.

As others have said, even if those takes were true, as a spurs fan I put the team's interest first and overpaying green would be stupid.

Green was given a chance by the spurs when he had been cut by terrible teams and been bouncing around the D league. He as been given a staring role on the Spurs when he would have otherwise been out of the NBA. He has a good salary, and is old enough that he has essentially no upside. He did great and feeling sorry for him or feeling he has been mistreated shows you are a green fan over a spurs fan, and I simply can't trust an objective application of an otherwise objective methodology.

Green's defensive metrics are elite in every facet, not just Chinook's analysis:lol..

[KL2]

Leonard is just the type of player that gets you the ball. His defense has been great this year, best on the team tbh. His rebounding, help defense, playing the passing lanes, on ball, position, etc. has been on point practically every game. Ask yourself which position is harder to replace defensively, SF or SG?

[Malik Hairston]

^^24% of the Spurs' SF position has been allocated to Green, this season, almost as much as the SG position..

Anyways, they are the 2 best defensive players on the team, an elite defensive team, it's a shame they don't have a cute nickname like 'Splash Brothers'..

[apalisoc_9]

I don't agree with Chinook about Pop costing Green money, though..it's 2014, every team(other than maybe the Lakers:lol) thoroughly utilizes advanced metrics nowadays, and Green's are as good as any perimeter defender in the league..

Tiago splitter..

Constantly calling him a blue collar guy didn't stop the spurs from paying him his worth...:lol

[Malik Hairston]

Tiago splitter..

Constantly calling him a blue collar guy didn't stop the spurs from paying him his worth...:lol

Yep..Splitter got more than anybody expected, despite Pop implying some negativity about him:lol..

[ElNono]

Green has also filled in spot minutes as PG this season, due to the team being undermanned. His continued growth as an NBA player has been nothing short of impressive, tbh... the main knock on him always has been his ball handling, and while he still fumbles the ball here or there, and it's nowhere near naturals like Beli or Gino, he has also made great strides in that department. The addition of a semi-reliable floater alone should easily earn him some extra $$$ this offseason.

[wildchild]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

Well, his numbers tried to show even Marco defended Durant better than Leonard...

But we can't only look the PPP stats to analyse globally the defense. There are a lot of factors to take into account like allowing more or less attempts in a game, more or less contested/uncontested shots, etc.

However, if the best of Leonard defense was disregarded by his stats and analysis, it doesn't mean he did it on purpose. Maybe it was just...an accidental thing.

[wildchild]

While I agree that Kawhi's defensive ceiling is higher, his physical abilities/traits are overwhelming and pretty rare, I do think he benefits greatly from aesthetics, tbh..he has "the look" of an intimidating defensive player and he has more defensive highlights, due to his freakish arms/hands(like his legendary strip on Westbrook in game 6.

Yeah...the physical gifts are clearly there, but he's the best perimeter defender not because his freakish arms/hands.

He has the desire, attitude, effort, work ethic, great defensive instincts and skills...He really does have all the physical/mental tools AND the talent.

[Malik Hairston]

Yeah...the physical gifts are clearly there, but he's the best perimeter defender not because his freakish arms/hands.
He has the desire, attitude, effort, work ethic, great defensive instincts and skills...He really does have all the physical/mental tools AND the talent.

Of course he does, a lot of players with the tools to be great defenders don't actually produce defensively(Batum, Jeff Green, etc), Kawhi is obviously a top-tier defender..I'm just saying, even if he wasn't as good defensively, he still has the advantage of aesthetics due to his physical traits..

[r0drig0lac]

If I had two bullets and could kill Hitler and Popovich, I'd shoot Pop twice.

haha

[dabom]

Kawhi is way better than green on defense. Any respectable basketball mind know s tHiS pop just tells it like it is.

[dabom]

I remember chinnook telling me kawhi didn't sHt DWn Westbrook. LoL I toLd him to go back and watch the games. Hahahahhahahahhaahahh

[spursfaninla]

Green's defensive metrics are elite in every facet, not just Chinook's analysis:lol..

Agreed that Green appears to be top 10 in several advanced metrics, such as defensive rating, defensive win shares, and defensive box Plus/minus (also props for a very high replacement rating) from basketballreference.com.

that was not the point.

Two: Chinook makes "green vs. Leonard" defensive comparisons all the time, and points to his objective study from last year's playoff's as proof that his opinion is better than your anecdotal opinion. The website above's advanced defensive stats say otherwise, but I don't even care myself who is better.

Danny is an elite on-ball defender, and an elite 3pt shooter. He is improving his middle game, but I would say he is still average/below average offensively outside of 3pts.

The fact that we have 3 top 10 defenders on the spurs this year by those metrics does matter to me.

More important than individual defensive pissing contests, if splitter comes back, we will be even more dominant defensively. That would rock.

[TDfan2007]

I think Pop is mostly talking about "doing your defensive work early" and "attention to detail". Danny is probably the best defender we have one on one, that is, when the opposing player is already in it's spot and comfortable with the ball. He has the length to force players to drive, he can block or swipe at the ball successfully if they do drive around him, but I think what Pop is talking about is the off the ball defense: preventing your man from getting to their sweet spots, working through screens to beat your man to the spot, that kind of stuff. It's not uncommon to see Danny having to catch up to his guy, be it running out to a shooter in the corner, or after getting stuck on a screen, IMO.

It's really nitpicking, Danny has evolved into a great defender, really, and if Pop wants more from him is because he feels he can get that from Danny. You would never hear him saying anything like that about Beli, because he already knows Beli can't get anywhere near that level.

This.

Danny is an amazing 1-on-1 defender and transition defender, but he frequently has brain farts and leaves shooters wide open while "helping" for no reason. He also frequently gets lost on off-ball screens. Kawhi doesn't have those problems. His issues come w/ lateral quickness and staying in front of really speedy/shifty smaller players ala Manta Ellis.

[Baseline]

Pop is not a genius at all. He's actually a selfish prick who - in the span of one minute - coached us out of a title by putting Tim Duncan on the bench in Game 6.

As far as his five titles are concerned? He's had Tim Duncan for his entire career. End of story.

[dabom]

Wtf????? Hhahahahhahahaha

[Chinook]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

This is corroborates by my own evaluations of the defensive contributions of the players in the OK series after watching game 6 several times.

In any event, feeling sorry for Green, that he is not given credit, and particularly thinking Green deserves more money, etc, demonstrates Green fanboy status and biased views TBH.

As others have said, even if those takes were true, as a spurs fan I put the team's interest first and overpaying green would be stupid.

Green was given a chance by the spurs when he had been cut by terrible teams and been bouncing around the D league. He as been given a staring role on the Spurs when he would have otherwise been out of the NBA. He has a good salary, and is old enough that he has essentially no upside. He did great and feeling sorry for him or feeling he has been mistreated shows you are a green fan over a spurs fan, and I simply can't trust an objective application of an otherwise objective methodology.

1) My method was biased toward help defense. I gave a long preface to all three threads explaining the strengths and weaknesses of my method.

2) Green's an elite help defender, which is why his numbers are great. Most of his blocks come from weakside rotations. That Pop doesn't like Green's help doesn't make it bad.

3) lol at your ad hominem fallacy.

I like Green because he's a good player; I don't think he's a good player because I like him. You're welcome to make counter arguments, but I'm not sympathetic to your current line of reasoning in the slightest.

[dabom]

Chinook at it again. No, green is not a better defender than kawhi.

[Chinook]

Agreed that Green appears to be top 10 in several advanced metrics, such as defensive rating, defensive win shares, and defensive box Plus/minus (also props for a very high replacement rating) from basketballreference.com.

that was not the point.

Two: Chinook makes "green vs. Leonard" defensive comparisons all the time, and points to his objective study from last year's playoff's as proof that his opinion is better than your anecdotal opinion. The website above's advanced defensive stats say otherwise, but I don't even care myself who is better.

Danny is an elite on-ball defender, and an elite 3pt shooter. He is improving his middle game, but I would say he is still average/below average offensively outside of 3pts.

The fact that we have 3 top 10 defenders on the spurs this year by those metrics does matter to me.

More important than individual defensive pissing contests, if splitter comes back, we will be even more dominant defensively. That would rock.

I'm sorry that you can't understand why empirical analysis is better than ad hoc opinion. But saying I'm biased doesn't mean I scored Green better. If anything, he got robbed in the middle games of the WCF on several occasions due to helping on the Russ/KD PnR when Leonard and Parker kept flubbing the switch.

[Chinook]

I remember chinnook telling me kawhi didn't sHt DWn Westbrook. LoL I toLd him to go back and watch the games. Hahahahhahahahhaahahh

And you still look like a fool.

[Baam]

Wonder how different the debate would be if Green won the 2013 Fmvp...

[SpursFan86]

Wonder how different the debate would be if Green won the 2013 Fmvp...

Why would that make any difference?

[dabom]

And you still look like a fool.

Chinook with the bads per par. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233376&page=2

:lol Look at all that homerism in there. :lmao

Kawhi is the best defender in our team and the best perimeter defender in the game.

Chinook uses stats as reliable as plus/minus. :lmao

Not all stats are useless but they don't paint the whole picture. You need to learn that before you start basing your ideas on them.

[dabom]

Why would that make any difference?

:toast

[Baam]

Why would that make any difference?

Cause Green would be viewed on equal footing with Leonard.

[dabom]

Cause Green would be viewed on equal footing with Leonard.

Do people even use context anymore?

[SpursFan86]

Don't see how Green winning FMVP in 2013 changes whether he's better or worse than Kawhi at defense.

[Baam]

Don't see how Green winning FMVP in 2013 changes whether he's better or worse than Kawhi at defense.

Because he wouldn't be dismissed as easily by Pop.

[BillMc]

I'm not one who has looked into the advanced metrics, so my opinion on the players tends to just come from watching them. Obviously Danny is a terrific defender, but Pop feels he must still improve before being in the same conversation with Kawhi. Whether this is what Pop actually thinks or some motivational game for Danny, or a combination of both, I don't know.

I have to say though reading the informed posts on both sides of the argument is very enjoyable. It's rare these days on Spurstalk to get an interesting thread and debate like this, as our site seems now to have been overrun by trolls. A few years ago we'd often have some fantastic analyses of publishable quality, but those seem rarer since we returned to the Finals and many bandwagoners appeared. (Not to say there haven't been many new terrific posters added, there have, but with them have come a lot of trolls sadly)

[ElNono]

but those seem rarer since we returned to the Finals and bandwagoners appeared. (Not to say there haven't been many new terrific posters added, there has, but with them have come a lot of trolls sadly)

:lol it really started since reaching the WCF in '12... this place was inundated with certain vanilla/fairweather/bandwagon fans... oh well, certainly would trade that for a championship or two, tbh

[BillMc]

:lol it really started since reaching the WCF in '12... this place was inundated with certain vanilla/fairweather/bandwagon fans... oh well, certainly would trade that for a championship or two, tbh

You're right. And fortunately we DO get to trade it for a championship (and perhaps another few). :toast

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Danny's a better weak side shot blocker than kawhi, better 1 on 1 defender(not by much) and the best I've ever seen at breaking up a fast break.

[FkLA]

When you factor in rebounding and steals/deflections hes really not on Kawhis level though. No shame in that since Kawhi is the absolute best permeter defender in the league.

[dabom]

Danny's a better weak side shot blocker than kawhi, better 1 on 1 defender(not by much) and the best I've ever seen at breaking up a fast break.

Kawhi is our best 1on1 defender. So much so that Pop puts him on the other teams best player late in games to ice it. Danny is very good in transition though. Kawhi would get more blocks if he tried but that comes at more fouls or pumpfake drivebys. Some things that pop or kawhi couldn't careless about. Kawhi needs to play 40 a night if he is asked so he can't foul or go for blocks. We don't have any real backup 3s but we do have a great sg in manu.

[wildchild]

Danny is an amazing 1-on-1 defender and transition defender, but he frequently has brain farts and leaves shooters wide open while "helping" for no reason. He also frequently gets lost on off-ball screens.
Agreed.



2) Green's an elite help defender.
Not really, not always.


This kind of play is simply inexcusable. When Shane Battier catches Allen's pass, Green is a good 10-15 feet away from him. Why is he helping so much on a Ray Allen drive to the rim? Green should know that Gregg Popovich (or any conscious human being, for that matter) would choose a contested Ray Allen floater over a wide-open Shane Battier three any day of the week.
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3606629/Battier_3_1.gif

What is Danny doing? I get that he wants to help Kawhi Leonard with LeBron and Tim Duncan with Chris Bosh, but LeBron is driving away from Green, and Bosh doesn't have a good angle for a pass. It goes without question that Pop has drilled into every Spur's head not to leave Ray Allen or Shane Battier open. This sort of mental mistake by Green is something that should never happen on a team as disciplined as the Spurs. Once again, Danny is caught far away from his man, who just happens to be one of the greatest shooters of all time.
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3606619/Allen_3_1.gif


In this play, Green and Matt Bonner are both way too far off their respective men in Draymond Green and Klay Thompson. Harrison Barnes kicks it out to Draymond, who for some reason is left wide open, who then passes it over to Thompson, who for some reason is left even more wide open. Bonner does a good job of recovering and tries to chase Draymond off the line, but doesn't communicate with Green that they need to switch men. Green doesn't realize this until it's far too late, and the Super Splash Bros don't let wide open threes go unpunished.
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3606645/Klay_3_1.gif

Here's another miscommunication between Green and his teammates, which leaves Mario Chalmers wide-open for a three. It's unclear whether Green thinks his man is Battier or LeBron, but either way he's missing out on his real match-up and great shooter in Chalmers
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3606653/Chalmers_3_1.gif
Old article (2013) http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/12/6/5128478/danny-green-defense-improve

But even if Danny has improved, Pop still wants a continuous improvement in facets where Danny isn't elite yet, it's not a big deal after all.

[dabom]

When you factor in rebounding and steals/deflections hes really not on Kawhis level though. No shame in that since Kawhi is the absolute best permeter defender in the league.

Rebounds wins championships. Kawhi might be the best rebounder at the 3. KAwhi tim and tiago is like having 3 centers on the floor for rebounding.

[ElNono]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

[dabom]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

Rebounds are a huge part of defense last I heard.

[spurraider21]

jason kidd's rebounding never goes without mention

[FkLA]

They play different positions though... keep that in mind when talking about rebounding...

Eh both are wings. I'd understand if Kawhi was a bigman or something. And even if we look at them relative to their position, Kawhi is the best rebounding SF in the league and Green isn't really an elite rebounding SG. There's also steals/deflections which is normally better suited for guards and yet Kawhi is better at that as well.

I really like Green but I don't understand how this comparison is even all that close tbh.

[ElNono]

Rebounds are a huge part of defense last I heard.

don't disagree. but at the same time, you can't take that into a vacuum. If a guy is shutting down Curry at the top of the key, I can't expect that guy to also go grab all the rebounds. It's much more of a concern when you have PFs or Cs that are poor boxing out or rebounding (ie: Ginger). When you're talking guards, you'll take whatever rebounding they can give you, but you can't forget you're talking about a guard.

[ElNono]

Eh both are wings. I'd understand if Kawhi was a bigman or something. And even if we look at them relative to their position, Kawhi is the best rebounding SF in the league and Green isn't really an elite rebounding SG. There's also steals/deflections which is normally better suited for guards and yet Kawhi is better at that as well.

I really like Green but I don't understand how this comparison is even close tbh.

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the circumstances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

[dabom]

don't disagree. but at the same time, you can't take that into a vacuum. If a guy is shutting down Curry at the top of the key, I can't expect that guy to also go grab all the rebounds. It's much more of a concern when you have PFs or Cs that are poor boxing out or rebounding (ie: Ginger). When you're talking guards, you'll take whatever rebounding they can give you, but you can't forget you're talking about a guard.

And Kawhi shut down klay in that series. He also got a ton of rebounds(i'm assuming :lol). You act like kawhi doesn't spend 90% of his time in the perimeter. We are talking about defense not what positon they play, hence why Kawhi is the better defender between the two. I wonder what pop would say, wait he already did. :lol

[dabom]

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the circumstances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

You don't want to start another ST myth now. :lol These people eat it up.

[FkLA]

Danny is more of a guard though, his main role includes spacing the floor sitting in the corners. I think Kawhi is indeed a fairly elite rebounder. But it's not like Green is poor at boxing out or grabbing a board when the circumstances arise. He just happens to play a bit further away from the basket than Kawhi, and there's nothing wrong with that, every player covers a position and has a role.

I don't know bro. I've never thought Kawhi spends a large amount of time near the rim. I mean he still guards perimeter guys, right? So why would he spend a significantly larger amount of time closer to the basket than Green?

[ElNono]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

[Chinook]

Agreed.



Not really, not always.






Old article (2013) http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/12/6/5128478/danny-green-defense-improve

But even if Danny has improved, Pop still wants a continuous improvement in facets where Danny isn't elite yet, it's not a big deal after all.


Thanks for the counter point. That article seems to take the shots allowed as an indicator that Green is a poor help defender, but the reasoning is flawed for a few reasons.

The first is that it doesn't take into account the effect of Green's help on the opposing team's percentage at the rim. The fact that Green allowed "some" threes doesn't mean that he didn't balance that out by denying twos. That he has elite team defensive metrics seems to suggest he more than makes up for the threes.

Second is that PPP (especially in the traditional sense) only accounts for shots taken. So if Green forces a pass with his defense the numbers don't catch it. Funny how you can use arguments against PPP to defend Leonard but ignore them when it relates to Green.

Third, If anything, this shows that Green isn't a perfect one-on-one defender. Poor help defense means that he blows his rotations and leaves his teammates out to dry. I don't think that anyone can really say Green doesn't help enough.

[100%duncan]

:lol if you believe people on a message board know greens impact on defense than I'm sure other teams and coaches/gms do too. Green will get payed what he's worth. He isn't as good of a player as Leonard hence he won't get as much money. Lol

Influence of Pop tbh. I know Green's going to get paid either way but to dismiss that's he's not going to atleast miss a couple millions...

[Chinook]

I don't know bro. I've never thought Kawhi spends a large amount of time near the rim. I mean he still guards perimeter guys, right? So why would he spend a significantly larger amount of time closer to the basket than Green?

Kawhi spends a lot more time by the rim. Green hangs out there to but only really as the primary or secondary defender, which means he's usually not set up for boarding. His job as a guard is to leak for transition, and that means he often leaves rebounds to the frontcourt, though he's been attacking the glass this season. Green is actually really good at boxing players out for his teammates. Last night, there were a couple of times he held off Z-Bo so that someone else could get the rebound. That doesn't go into a stat sheet at all.

[hater]

Pop hates danny because he frequents clubs and twitter :cry

[spursfaninla]

I'm sorry that you can't understand why empirical analysis is better than ad hoc opinion. But saying I'm biased doesn't mean I scored Green better. If anything, he got robbed in the middle games of the WCF on several occasions due to helping on the Russ/KD PnR when Leonard and Parker kept flubbing the switch.

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

[dabom]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

Although those guys do do that, he still spends 90% of his time out in the perimeter and still gets the rebound. He just man handles 2 or 3 rebounds out of opponent hands every game.

[Chinook]

Chinook with the bads per par. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233376&page=2

:lol Look at all that homerism in there. :lmao

Kawhi is the best defender in our team and the best perimeter defender in the game.

Chinook uses stats as reliable as plus/minus. :lmao

Not all stats are useless but they don't paint the whole picture. You need to learn that before you start basing your ideas on them.

I remember why I used to just :lol at your posts. There's a difference between pointing to stats and quantifying what you see. I (re)charted the entire game so that people could see things that weren't on a box score. That you think your six-months-old eye test is somehow the same is foolish. More importantly, you (and many others) completely misunderstood the adjustment Pop made and the reasoning for it.

[dabom]

I remember why I used to just :lol at your posts. There's a difference between pointing to stats and quantifying what you see. I (re)charted the entire game so that people could see things that weren't on a box score. That you think your six-months-old eye test is somehow the same is foolish. More importantly, you (and many others) completely misunderstood the adjustment Pop made and the reasoning for it.

Westbrook with godzilla stats and then doesnt play the fourth the next game because pop put kawhigodmode on him. Even Pop flat out denies any arguments that green is a better defender than kawhi and homers just can't accept the truth. :lmao

[Chinook]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

How is that any more objective? It's just someone else's stats. These are stats that you don't know (or seem to not know) how they're calculated, so you probably don't really know what they mean. Also, you seem to have just taken the BR stats that make Leonard look better and ignored the ones that made Green look better. How's that for bias?

Also :lol at you taking about Green's PG stats when he played there for 1 percent of his total minutes. Objectivity is understanding that that is a tiny sample size and is not statistically significant.

I'd rather you just keep doing the eye-test, "Pop Says" thing rather than just posting up stats like these.

[Chinook]

Westbrook with godzilla stats and then doesnt play the fourth the next game because pop put kawhigodmode on him. Even Pop flat out denies any arguments that green is a better defender than kawhi and homers just can't accept the truth. :lmao

Westbrook score more than half of his Game Four points when Pop had already benched the starters. That you don't remember how that game ended explains why you can't actually make any arguments.

[timtonymanu]

Non-issue. Pop is definitely a Kawhi homer but I'm sure he knows how important Danny is.

[dabom]

Westbrook score more than half of his Game Four points when Pop had already benched the starters. That you don't remember how that game ended explains why you can't actually make any arguments.

You're so fail in this argument. Kawhi basically iced game 5 for us with his defense and you can't see it. Stopped a repeat of 2012. Pop said Kawhi is better than green in defense and you can't see it. What now? You're becoming a terrible poster with these bad takes. :lol

[dabom]

Non-issue. Pop is definitely a Kawhi homer but I'm sure he knows how important Danny is.

Pop knows how important green is to the spurs. It's just baffling how someone can compare danny and kawhi on defense without him flat out denying any connection.

[ElNono]

Although those guys do do that, he still spends 90% of his time out in the perimeter and still gets the rebound. He just man handles 2 or 3 rebounds out of opponent hands every game.

I'll just agree to disagree... Kawhi spends a lot of time near the rim, helping out Tim, who has needed the help, to be fair...

[BillMc]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2



Not to sidetrack this interesting debate (and I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm) but how is James Harden #1 in this category? I don't pretend to know the details of how all these advanced stats are calculated, but Harden has a reputation as a terrible defender. Either the public perception under rates Harden, or this stat is a poor reflection of defensive merit. (Or I don't understand Defensive Win Shares! :lol Which is very possible).

But this calculation does show the weaknesses of leaning on any stat if it has "The Beard" as a better defender than Green or Leonard (not to mention Duncan and the other bigs)

[ElNono]

Pop hates danny because he frequents clubs and twitter :cry

that too

[spursfaninla]

How is that any more objective? It's just someone else's stats. These are stats that you don't know (or seem to not know) how they're calculated, so you probably don't really know what they mean. Also, you seem to have just taken the BR stats that make Leonard look better and ignored the ones that made Green look better. How's that for bias?

Also :lol at you taking about Green's PG stats when he played there for 1 percent of his total minutes. Objectivity is understanding that that is a tiny sample size and is not statistically significant.

I'd rather you just keep doing the eye-test, "Pop Says" thing rather than just posting up stats like these.

Fair enough about the PG time comparison. But otherwise your points are just ad hominems.

Someone else who does not have an agenda (unlike you) created advanced status regarding defense and leonard is higher than green on the ones listed.

There was one with green above leonard by a little; box defense.

You did not actually criticize the methodology of these stats, yet we should doubt them because they came to a different conclusion than you did?

Give me a reason to doubt these measures and I will consider it. I already have a reason to doubt yours.

[Chinook]

You're so fail in this argument. Kawhi basically iced game 5 for us with his defense and you can't see it. Stopped a repeat of 2012. Pop said Kawhi is better than green in defense and you can't see it. What now? You're becoming a terrible poster with these bad takes. :lol

Game Five was a blowout. There was nothing about it that needed to be "iced". I can see you talking about Game Six (and would agree with you). Again, though, that thread you quoted as an example of my terrible takes showed why the Thunder lost Game Five -- no one else could hit open shots. Brooks made Westbrook into a facilitator, and Russ set his guys up well; they just let him down. You don't have to take my word on that. You can rewatch the game itself instead of making off-hand rebuttals.

[dabom]

I'll just agree to disagree... Kawhi spends a lot of time near the rim, helping out Tim, who has needed the help, to be fair...

This is the third time I guess we have come to this conclusion. I just want to hear it from you now who the better defender is between kawhi and green.

[spurraider21]

Not to sidetrack this interesting debate (and I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm) but how James Harden #1 in this category? I don't pretend to know the details of how all these advanced stats are calculated, but Harden has a reputation as a terrible defender. Either the public perception under rates Harden, or this stat is a poor reflection of defensive merit. (Or I don't understand Defensive Win Shares! :lol Which is very possible).

But this calculation does show the weaknesses of leaning on any stat if it has Harden as a better defender than Green or Leonard.
defensive rating is very flawed. carlos boozer measured out very well during his years in chicago

[dabom]

Game Five was a blowout. There was nothing about it that needed to be "iced". I can see you talking about Game Six (and would agree with you). Again, though, that thread you quoted as an example of my terrible takes showed why the Thunder lost Game Five -- no one else could hit open shots. Brooks made Westbrook into a facilitator, and Russ set his guys up well; they just let him down. You don't have to take my word on that. You can rewatch the game itself instead of making off-hand rebuttals.

Even the OKC local news said Kawhi shut down westbrook. EVERYONE saw it except a few terrible apples. EVERYONE. You are losing any reputation you had on a sinking ship. :lmao

[FkLA]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

Out of the guys you mentioned, Melo is the only one I would say posts up a lot. They all drive but so do the guards Danny defends so not sure how Kawhi has any kind of signifcant edge there.


Kawhi spends a lot more time by the rim. Green hangs out there to but only really as the primary or secondary defender, which means he's usually not set up for boarding. His job as a guard is to leak for transition, and that means he often leaves rebounds to the frontcourt, though he's been attacking the glass this season. Green is actually really good at boxing players out for his teammates. Last night, there were a couple of times he held off Z-Bo so that someone else could get the rebound. That doesn't go into a stat sheet at all.

I'd say it has more to do with Kawhi being a lot more physical and simply having a body that's better suited for rebounding but that's just me.

[ElNono]

This is the third time I guess we have come to this conclusion. I just want to hear it from you now who the better defender is between kawhi and green.

Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't think it's a question that has an easy answer, tbh. If I want one to one defense, especially on quicker/smaller guys, I'll take Green. If I have to guard a bigger guy that posts a lot, would definitely take Kawhi.

This is right at this moment. Going forward, I think Kawhi has the higher ceiling as overall defender, but time will tell.

What's more important is that we can have this conversation when both players are Spurs. It's a luxury the team can have such defensive talent.

[Malik Hairston]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

The opposing PER numbers are actually heavily in Green's favor, tbh..the PG sample size is when Green himself is playing PG, not when he's actually guarding PGs, which has literally been for like 2-3 minutes:lol..

Same with Kawhi at PF, he hasn't spent much time there this season..Kawhi's opposing PER has been pretty average this season, as the numbers show..

[Chinook]

But otherwise your points are just ad hominems.


Someone else who does not have an agenda (unlike you)

I love that you don't understand the irony of that juxtaposition.


There was one with green above leonard by a little; box defense.

Same difference as the difference in DWS, but that didn't seem to stop you. Also there is block+steals/fouls, which you'd have to calculate yourself. The gist of the numbers is that Green's ratio of impact plays to fouls is higher than Leonard's. Green fouls more and doesn't steal the ball as much, but he blocks so many more shots that the overall impact is better.


You did not actually criticize the methodology of these stats,

I have, many times. DRtg overvalues rebounding, which biases it toward front-court players. It's really hard for a guard to have a good defensive rating, especially if he doesn't play on an elite defensive team. By that same token, a player who plays on a great defensive team can have a high DRtg even if he sucks on D, like Carlos Boozer did with the Bulls. DWS is based on DRtg and thusly has the same problems.


Give me a reason to doubt these measures and I will consider it. I already have a reason to doubt yours.

Fancy turn of phrase, but it doesn't mean anything. You have no reason to doubt my numbers other than an ad hominem. I didn't create some fancy formula that's hard to decipher. It was just watching each play and scoring it based on who was responsible for the end result of the play. I get that you don't understand what I did (hence your belief that it's biased toward on-ball defenders), but I was very transparent.

You can rewatch the games and get your own numbers just like I did. They would probably be a little different if you had different scoring criteria. Then we could compare numbers and methods. Instead, you want to look for things that confirm your way of thinking while dismissing contrary evidence due to ad hominems.

[Chinook]

The opposing PER numbers are actually heavily in Green's favor, tbh..the PG sample size is when Green himself is playing PG, not when he's actually guarding PGs, which has literally been for like 2-3 minutes:lol..

Same with Kawhi at PF, he hasn't spent much time there this season..Kawhi's opposing PER has been pretty average this season, as the numbers show..

Not to mention that PER is normalized, so a difference of 7 points or so is actually massive. Even so, 82games has terrible methodology, which I know you already knew.

[SpursFan86]

Defensive rating/defensive win shares are both pretty garbage stats in terms of gauging defensive impact. They're heavily based on the team's overall defense + box score stats like steals/blocks. Bowen was commonly below guys like Parker since he hardly ever got steals or blocks.

Harden ranks so well because Houston has a top 3 defense and he's averaging nearly 2 steals and 1.2 blocks per game. He actually has been better on defense this year, but he's sure as hell not an elite defender like those stats might show.

[Malik Hairston]

Not to mention that PER is normalized, so a difference of 7 points or so is actually massive. Even so, 82games has terrible methodology, which I know you already knew.

Of course..when I judge defensive metrics(excluding defensive rating and win shares, since they're terrible), I just throw them all into one argument to compare, they're literally all flawed(it's impossible to judge defense without looking at every possible facet)..

82 games's method is extremely flawed, but it's another interesting stat to add to the mix..

[FkLA]

This might not be a popular opinion, but I think Kawhi has quicker feet than Green. I actually don't think Green is quick enough to stay in front of freak athletes like Westbrook...I still remember Westbrook's first step killing Green in Game 6--in OT for example he was just missing, wasn't really anything Green did. If they didn't have Durant I would stick Kawhi on Westbrook instead of Green.

[ElNono]

Out of the guys you mentioned, Melo is the only one I would say posts up a lot. They all drive but so do the guards Danny defends so not sure how Kawhi has any kind of signifcant edge there.

They all post up. Lebron posts up a whole lot, even more than Melo. He was one of the top post players in Miami. George is possibly the guy that struggled the most trying to move his game to the post, but not for lack of trying. But it's academic. Kawhi is a guy that will stick in front of you and meet you at the rim. Danny is a guy that meets you in the perimeter and catch up with you at the rim (swipe/block from behind). The Spurs need both. Some players you can stay in front of, and some players you can't. So it's great that we have both.

[100%duncan]

They all post up. Lebron posts up a whole lot, even more than Melo. He was one of the top post players in Miami. George is possibly the guy that struggled the most trying to move his game to the post, but not for lack of trying. But it's academic. Kawhi is a guy that will stick in front of you and meet you at the rim. Danny is a guy that meets you in the perimeter and catch up with you at the rim (swipe/block from behind). The Spurs need both. Some players you can stay in front of, and some players you can't. So it's great that we have both.

This. They are the main reasons why Spurs fans are confident no matter who the opponent is.

[SpursFan86]

I wish Synergy didn't make their information private. They had a lot of useful information like PPP allowed in different types of situations.

But yeah, basically all defensive metrics are flawed in one way or another. The best way to measure defense is

1) actually watch the guy play and make a concerted effort to watch him on defense

2) look at a wide variety of metrics to see if it backs up what you think you're seeing

[Chinook]

I'd say it has more to do with Kawhi being a lot more physical and simply having a body that's better suited for rebounding but that's just me.

Eh, there are a lot of other factors that play into it. You're right that Kawhi is simply a better rebounder. I don't think anyone can argue that. Leonard deserves his due as the best rebounding SF in the league. But he is a front-court player, and that does put him near the basket a lot, especially when he's playing off the ball. As I said, it's Green's job as a guard to be above the FT line most of the time. That's not true for Leonard. That doesn't mean that Green's rebounding is equal to Kawhi's at all. It does mean that it's not a huge deal to perimeter defense to get boards.

I have little problem with folks saying that Leonard impacts the defensive side of the ball more than Green. I don't think it's fair to say he's better defending on the perimeter because he rebounds more, however.

[ElNono]

This might not be a popular opinion, but I think Kawhi has quicker feet than Green. I actually don't think Green is quick enough to stay in front of freak athletes like Westbrook...I still remember Westbrook's first step killing Green in Game 6--in OT for example he was just missing, wasn't really anything Green did. If they didn't have Durant I would stick Kawhi on Westbrook instead of Green.

I just think when players like Westbrook are on, it hardly matters who you put in front... it's like when Lebron would score 10 straight in a quarter for Miami in the last Finals... sometimes, you just gotta make them work for it, and that's about all you can do.

[ElNono]

Eh, there are a lot of other factors that play into it. You're right that Kawhi is simply a better rebounder. I don't think anyone can argue that. Leonard deserves his due as the best rebounding SF in the league. But he is a front-court player, and that does put him near the basket a lot, especially when he's playing off the ball. As I said, it's Green's job as a guard to be above the FT line most of the time. That's not true for Leonard. That doesn't mean that Green's rebounding is equal to Kawhi's at all. It does mean that it's not a huge deal to perimeter defense to get boards.

That's what I was trying to point out, which has nothing to do with a Kawhi vs Green comparison. Kawhi is an elite rebounder, no doubt about it, but that doesn't automatically mean Green is bad or anything like that. Green could rebound more if he didn't have to run back in transition (because that's his role/job as a guard). Would he rebound as much or as good as Kawhi if he didn't have such responsibility? Unlikely. But his box out and rebounding are solid. It's not like we're talking Bonner box outs here.

[dabom]

That's what I was trying to point out, which has nothing to do with a Kawhi vs Green comparison. Kawhi is an elite rebounder, no doubt about it, but that doesn't automatically mean Green is bad or anything like that. Green could rebound more if he didn't have to run back in transition (because that's his role/job as a guard). Would he rebound as much or as good as Kawhi if he didn't have such responsibility? Unlikely. But his box out and rebounding are solid. It's not like we're talking Bonner box outs here.

Do you actually believe his offensive rebounds would offset his blocks on transition? I highly doubt that. His numbers will always look the same. His defensive rebounding will never be near kawhi numbers. Also kawhi can go for those offensive rebounds too but he also runs back on defense just like the whole team. Kawhis impact on defense will never be quantifiable but that's why we have basketball minds like pop who will quell some arguments.

[pgardn]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

So you became a Spur's fan well after Parker?

[100%duncan]

So you became a Spur's fan well after Parker?

Pop rained compliments for Parker all playoffs long last season.

[ElNono]

Do you actually believe his offensive rebounds would offset his blocks on transition? I highly doubt that. His numbers will always look the same. His defensive rebounding will never be near kawhi numbers. Also kawhi can go for those offensive rebounds too but he also runs back on defense just like the whole team. Kawhis impact on defense will never be quantifiable but that's why we have basketball minds like pop who will quell some arguments.

You're looking for an answer over an argument I never made. I never said Green would be as good as Kawhi if given the same opportunities (I actually said the contrary). I simply pointed out that Green doesn't get the same opportunities, and that's simply by design, because of the system we use and the positions they play. You might agree or disagree with that (I suppose you disagree), and that's fine. If there's a myth I'd like to kill is any notion that Danny isn't a good rebounder because he doesn't rebound at an elite level like Kawhi. Danny is a fine rebounder for his position.

[pgardn]

And Green is still a bad ball handler, upgraded from awful.

[ElNono]

So you became a Spur's fan well after Parker?

:lol

[pgardn]

Pop rained compliments for Parker all playoffs long last season.

So you also did not see Parker's first 4 seasons as a Spur?
Is that right?

[100%duncan]

So you also did not see Parker's first 4 seasons as a Spur?
Is that right?

Oh nice assumption are you going to pull the "I'm older than yours I know more" card on me? :lol

Of course I did, I also remember Pop putting a 19 year old into the starting line-up over veteran guards.

[dabom]

You're looking for an answer over an argument I never made. I never said Green would be as good as Kawhi if given the same opportunities (I actually said the contrary). I simply pointed out that Green doesn't get the same opportunities, and that's simply by design, because of the system we use and the positions they play. You might agree or disagree with that (I suppose you disagree), and that's fine. If there's a myth I'd like to kill is any notion that Danny isn't a good rebounder because he doesn't rebound at an elite level like Kawhi. Danny is a fine rebounder for his position.

By design kawhi and green can't get those offensive rebounds. I don't know what were arguing about again. Anyways I think green is a good rebounded but not great at it even for his position.

[pgardn]

Oh nice assumption are you going to pull the "I'm older than yours I know more" card on me? :lol

Of course I did, I also remember Pop putting a 19 year old into the starting line-up over veteran guards.

Do you remember the 4th quarter pulls and the incessant criticism?
I don't care how old you are, just don't mouth off about something you did not witness.

Does the name Speedy Claxton ring a bell?
There is no player that took as much shit from Pop as Parker for so long, none.

[wildchild]

Second is that PPP (especially in the traditional sense) only accounts for shots taken. So if Green forces a pass with his defense the numbers don't catch it. Funny how you can use arguments against PPP to defend Leonard but ignore them when it relates to Green
I always emphasize the importance of Danny forcing a pass or changing shots but you use PPP arguments to underestimate the best of Leonard's defense.

It's understandable the different points of view are always subjetive but even when your own numbers don't say what you want then there is a convenient story behind the stats.
Like game 3 WCF "His numbers are pretty strong, but they don’t tell the whole story" or after game 1 "Durant may not make as many tough shots again" but Durant was 6/15 on contested shots, had six turnovers, took 5 less attempts less and couldn't get his usual free throws per game.



I don't think that anyone can really say Green doesn't help enough.
Nobody says he doesn't help...he does, he over play help so much.

[100%duncan]

Do you remember the 4th quarter pulls and the incessant criticism?
I don't care how old you are, just don't mouth off about something you did not witness.

Does the name Speedy Claxton ring a bell?
There is no player that took as much shit from Pop as Parker for so long, none.

:lmao So when a player plays bad, you play him even if it'll cost you the game?

If Speedy didn't step up for Parker shitting the bed in 2003 then 2013 would have happened. Oh you know games 6 and 7 in the finals? When he got outplayed by Mario fucking Chalmers? And what happened the next year? Choked in the title clinching game again, good that we have another great back up pg in Mills though.

Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach. Dumb.

Ironic statement bruh " just don't mouth off about something you did not witness", dont mouth off about something that you clearly don't understand. :lol

[dabom]

Are we having a "I'm a bigger fan than you" because of location or this case older and fortunate to watch the spurs earlier. Let's just stick to the conversation at hand.

[pgardn]

:lmao So when a player plays bad, you play him even if it'll cost you the game?

If Speedy didn't step up for Parker shitting the bed in 2003 then 2013 would have happened. Oh you know games 6 and 7 in the finals? When he got outplayed by Mario fucking Chalmers? And what happened the next year? Choked in the title clinching game again, good that we have another great back up pg in Mills though.

Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach. Dumb.

Ironic statement bruh " just don't mouth off about something you did not witness", dont mouth off about something that you clearly don't understand. :lol

Oh good for you.
So you DO realize how much shit Parker has gone through.
Why are you arguing then dumbfck?

I am not a Parker apologist, I hate how he holds his head and does not get back after getting contact on a drive. Parker has taken more shit, especially early on, than any Spur.

[100%duncan]

Oh good for you.
So you DO realize how much shit Parker has gone through.
Why are you arguing then dumbfck?

So butthurt

.. and so dumb

"Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach." re-read and re-understand you dumbfuck :lol

[100%duncan]

Are we having a "I'm a bigger fan than you" because of location or this case older and fortunate to watch the spurs earlier. Let's just stick to the conversation at hand.

The old faggot has parker's dick all over his mouth. Forgive him, he's going to die soon anyhow.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Oh nice assumption are you going to pull the "I'm older than yours I know more" card on me? :lol

Of course I did, I also remember Pop putting a 19 year old into the starting line-up over veteran guards.

You whiffed again. Parker's been here a decade. What's it matter that Pop praised him LAST year? Pgar attempts to redirect you towards Parker's first four years and you whiff again. Parker got his ass chewed out incessantly. Not chewing Danny out for that bone-headed foul would have been a slap in the face to all the other players that have gotten their asses chewed. Danny is not better than Parker or Ginobili. Last year. Sheesh.

[pgardn]

So butthurt

.. and so dumb

"Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach." re-read and re-understand you dumbfuck :lol

You bet benching is degrading.
What is wrong with you?

And if it's verbal assaults, Parker has taken 5X as much as Green.
I stated Parker took far more shit, especially early on, you disagreed.

Now you go back and reread Einstein.

[100%duncan]

You whiffed again. Parker's been here a decade. What's it matter that Pop praised him LAST year? Pgar attempts to redirect you towards Parker's first four years and you whiff again. Parker got his ass chewed out incessantly. Not chewing Danny out for that bone-headed foul would have been a slap in the face to all the other players that have gotten their asses chewed. Danny is not better than Parker or Ginobili. Last year. Sheesh.

Whiff :cry still butthurt about past arguments with me

Putting a 19 year old on a contender's starting line up is not good enough :cry
Benching a player=shitting on him :cry

[littlecoyotecoin]

So butthurt

.. and so dumb

"Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach." re-read and re-understand you dumbfuck :lol

You're the dumbfuck that doesn't realize those benchings were quite often preceded by ass-chewings by the coach. He isn't trying to pull an age card on you, but he is calling you out as being ignorant of that history. Maybe it is your age, maybe it's not, but just quit while you're behind.

[100%duncan]

You bet benching is degrading.
What is wrong with you?

And if it's verbal assaults, Parker has taken 5X as much as Green.
I stated Parker took far more shit, especially early on, you disagreed.

Now you go back and reread Einstein.

I didn't disagree dumbass, re-read "Pop rained compliments for Parker all playoffs long last season." is that disagreeing? :lol You went all defensive for him right at the get go.

Apparently you reading Einstein hasn't help you understand basic comprehension so why would I.

[100%duncan]

You're the dumbfuck that doesn't realize those benchings were quite often preceded by ass-chewings by the coach. He isn't trying to pull an age card on you, but he is calling you out as being ignorant of that history. Maybe it is your age, maybe it's not, but just quit while you're behind.

Benching a player=shitting on him :lol

That's all I need to say. But hey I hope you two aren't coaches tbh.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Whiff :cry still butthurt about past arguments with me

Putting a 19 year old on a contender's starting line up is not good enough :cry
Benching a player=shitting on him :cry

I do remember you as a stupid person, true, but I don't remember which argument it was.

[100%duncan]

I do remember you as a stupid person, true, but I don't remember which argument it was.

Benching a player=shitting on him :lol

[rogues]

So butthurt

.. and so dumb

"Thinking that benching a player is taking shit from the coach." re-read and re-understand you dumbfuck :lol
:lol coyotecoin and that Longhorn fag you quoted are old faggots, tbh..just so ya know..

[100%duncan]

:lol coyotecoin and that Longhorn fag you quoted are old faggots, tbh..just so ya know..

:cry OH BUT POP BENCHED PARKER. HE HATES HIM!!! SHOULDA LET HIM STAYED ON THE FLOOR NO MATTER WHAT THE COST WILL BE. :cry

[ElNono]

http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7356/12294001205_176fdcf5c2_m.jpg

[pgardn]

I didn't disagree dumbass, re-read "Pop rained compliments for Parker all playoffs long last season." is that disagreeing? :lol You went all defensive for him right at the get go.

Apparently you reading Einstein hasn't help you understand basic comprehension so why would I.

Then dont "Pop" in for another poster, asshole.
Look what I bolded and how it was addressed.

This is what happens to dumb fcks who enter a discussion they should never have entered. Especially a poster with an agenda.

[Hoops Czar]

What a thread!!! Chinook went postal and Nono's running for office.

[100%duncan]

Then dont "Pop" in for another poster, asshole.
Look what I bolded and how it was addressed.

This is what happens to dumb fcks who enter a discussion they should never have entered. Especially a poster with an agenda.

Benching a player=shitting on him :lol

Agenda when I'm one of biggest Parker defenders when he shat the bad against the Heat. But hey sorry for hurting your feelings about your hero :cry

[rogues]

:cry OH BUT POP BENCHED PARKER. HE HATES HIM!!! SHOULDA LET HIM STAYED ON THE FLOOR NO MATTER WHAT THE COST WILL BE. :cry
I don't have anything against the Longhorn but that coyotecoin fag is annoyingly old, imo..you can tell the age..he sounds like xmas..

[littlecoyotecoin]

What part of "incessant criticism" did you misunderstand? Pop didn't just bench him.

[pgardn]

Benching a player=shitting on him :lol

Agenda when I'm one of biggest Parker defenders when he shat the bad against the Heat. But hey sorry for hurting your feelings about your hero :cry

Whatever. A benching because one is acting like an ahole by not following directions, or not producing, is very different than winded. I can't help you with your ignorance.

You have proven yourself fairly useless. At least Chinook has a little background and substance.
Keep up with emoticons as words seem too complex for you.
Later.

Have a good tonite and a better tomorrow.

[100%duncan]

Whatever. A benching because one is acting like an ahole by not following directions, or not producing, is very different than winded. I can't help you with your ignorance.

You have proven yourself fairly useless. At least Chinook has a little background and substance.
Keep up with emoticons as words seem too complex for you.
Later.

Have a good tonite and a better tomorrow.

Nice job contradicting yourself dumbass :lol

[pgardn]

What part of "incessant criticism" did you misunderstand? Pop didn't just bench him.

Parker had his ears boxed in by Pop.
Looked like Parker was gonna cry more than once.

[Chinook]

I always emphasize the importance of Danny forcing a pass or changing shots but you use PPP arguments to underestimate the best of Leonard's defense.

I think that's a big assumption on your part. You assume that Leonard is better at denying passes than Green is, to the extent that it makes up for all the quantifiable differences. I question that immensely.


It's understandable the different points of view are always subjetive but even when your own numbers don't say what you want then there is a convenient story behind the stats.

I still put them out there unedited so that people can have their own interpretation. If anything, that adds credibility to my numbers, since they don't always agree with me. Anyway, I've said the same thing about Kawhi a lot. You act like I bash his defense. I don't. It's just not as good as people think it is. He has real problems that people ignore, and his working on them is critical to him being the player he needs to be to lead the Spurs.


Nobody says he doesn't help...he does, he over play help so much.

That's debatable, which was the point of my contention. The PtR article claimed that by showing him getting burned on threes. But clearly Danny has such as high DRtg and DRAPM that he can't be the net-negative in team D they assume he was. They didn't actually look at the effect of his help defense, just some of the consequences of it. Danny gambles and gets burned sometimes, but he wins so much more that it's a net positive, hence his elite team-defense numbers.

[ElNono]

so what's the conclusion here? Danny gonna be a solid addition to the Cleveland Cavaliers next season? :lol

[BillMc]

so what's the conclusion here? Danny gonna be a solid addition to the Cleveland Cavaliers next season? :lol

They can't afford him unless they shed a few contracts. Thank God!

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

How about this for objective:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

Did you really use this to back-up Kawhi's case or you simply don't know what the numbers mean, saw PG PER of Green and thought you'd hit a homerun?

Green is almost equally on SG and SF ( 24 - 34 % ), allowing the opponent to have a PER of 8.0 and 10.6. This is not simply elite, it's ridiculous - just check Tony Allen's or Jimmy Butler's numbers - they're more on par with Kawhi's, but far far behind Green's.

For the record, last years' DPOYs counterpart's PER :
2013/14 - Joakim Noah - 16.7;
2012/13 - Marc Gasol - 14.6;
2011/12 - Tyson Chandler - 12.6;
2010/11 - Dwight Howard - 11.8.

Green is ridiculous. He was just as good last seaon ( 11.0 and 8.8 ). Kawhi's? 14.7.

[Chinook]

Give SFnLA a break. It's not easy to parse stats at first. If he wants to kerp going, he'll learn. He'll also see why I think Green is a better defender than Kawhi and why I dismiss Pop's evaluation. You don't have to fluff up Danny's numbers to make him look good; the dude's inreal if you actually look at him instead of trying to find mistakes.

[dabom]

Next chinnok is going to use plus/minus to show us bonner is the best spur in the team and denounce pop's comments of late
"Jeff McDonald: Asked Pop to explain Matt Bonner's NBA longevity (10-plus seasons): "There's always room for one lumberjack in the league. That's Matty." Twitter @JMcDonald_SAEN"
:lmao

[Chinook]

Funny thing is that you don't realize that Bonner's had a great season so far.

[dabom]

Funny thing is that you don't realize that Bonner's had a great season so far.

By his standards probably, not by the leagues though. Or else he wouldn't be the 5th 6th big off the bench even playing for the spurs.
I love stats but I put context to them and then I look at the impact of the player with my eyes and experience. I form a conclusion. I don't let pre-existent biased stats steer me out the road.
You need to see the bigger picture.

[RD2191]

http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7356/12294001205_176fdcf5c2_m.jpg
:lmao

[RD2191]

Chump is a faggot. Let's get this shit rolling.

[dabom]

Chump is a faggot. Let's get this shit rolling.

I heard if you say his name 3 times in a thread he shows up.

"Chump" - thats 2.

[RD2191]

I heard if you say his name 3 times in a thread he shows up.

"Chump" - thats 2.
:lol

[dabom]

:lol

:lol

[Brunodf]

Next chinnok is going to use plus/minus to show us bonner is the best spur in the team and denounce pop's comments of late
"Jeff McDonald: Asked Pop to explain Matt Bonner's NBA longevity (10-plus seasons): "There's always room for one lumberjack in the league. That's Matty." Twitter @JMcDonald_SAEN"
:lmao
:lmao

[wildchild]

You assume that Leonard is better at denying passes than Green is, to the extent that it makes up for all the quantifiable differences.
Well, I assume correctly based on observations of their games.


You act like I bash his defense. I don't. It's just not as good as people think it is. He has real problems that people ignore, and his working on them is critical to him.
Your words make my point. I say textually the same about Green.
If Danny works to balance his defense improving his off-ball defense he'll be the player that you think he is now.


But clearly Danny has such as high DRtg and DRAPM that he can't be the...
I can afford to let myself have doubts when my eyes see something that the stats don't.

Some of best defensive stat-hoarders can also be the worst defenders like I've said before about Harden.
And some of the best defenders give average stats.

That's why I don't preach about how to learn read stats, like you do.
If I have one piece of advice to offer others guys, I'd say...just watch the games. They'll develop their capacity for analysis only watching many games as possible.
Game plan/strategy/tactics adjustments, players evolving games, sometimes only can be noticed by a careful observer.

[mkurts]

I think Green and Leonard conpliment each other very well with different strengths. Can't really compare the two

[Kidd K]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

Yeah that's true. It's kind of ridiculous that Pop seems to almost never give him props when speaking to the media. I can't recall him constantly downplaying a player this much for like their entire career. He's downplayed Parker way back in the day when Parker was very young and unpolished but hasn't done it in years. This Green thing has been going on since day one. He's going to end up alienating him at this rate tbh.



It can only be said that it would cost Green millions if Green would have achieved what he has without Pop's psychology. Green, without Pop as a rudder, might be unlikely to be in a position to capitalize. Looking at Pop as a loose cannon that is costing Danny money is obfuscating the value Pop has added to Danny in the first place.

That's also true. That money issue's a bit clouded for that reason, but he would still be potentially costing Green a payday in the end if he keeps up with his comments. Green deserves some extra cash for those key playoff games he carried us in. We didn't win in 2013, but Danny Green sure as hell gave us a huge chance to do so with his record 3pt shooting.

[Chinook]

Well, I assume correctly based on observations of their games.

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying, "I think it because I think it." You assume Leonard is far superior in those areas, but you can provide no evidence of it. It doesn't have to be stats, but you literally bring nothing besides that statement, and it makes it hard to even discuss your opinion.


Your words make my point. I say textually the same about Green.
If Danny works to balance his defense improving his off-ball defense he'll be the player that you think he is now.

Also doesn't make sense. People don't have much to go on about Leonard's superiority besides their observations, which they can't explain past a gestalt level. Often, they misremember the events, hence people forgetting that Russ was held in check in Game Four until Pop pulled his starters. That's something that's very easy to see by watching Game Four again, but people refuse to do so.

Anyway, help defense and off-ball defense against shooters are not the same thing; in fact, they are the opposite of each other. There's little to be gained by confusing the two.


Some of best defensive stat-hoarders can also be the worst defenders like I've said before about Harden.

Harden's been much better on defense this season. Even gestalt folks can see that. He wasn't putting these kind of numbers up when he was playing awful defense. Boozer is a much better example of your point; however, he shows why DRtg and DWS are terrible stats, and since those are what people usually point to when giving Kawhi the edge, it gets ignored.


And some of the best defenders give average stats.

Eh, that's not really true. There were definitely stats that gave Bowen his due. It's just DRtg that didn't. DRAPM showed Bowen's worth, and it also bears out Green's consistent elite defensive impact. Are those stats perfect? Not at all. Does that mean they should be dismissed? No.


That's why I don't preach about how to learn read stats, like you do.

I talked about reading stats because SFnLA misread them while trying to make a rebuttal. It's kinda a big deal in that context.


If I have one piece of advice to offer others guys, I'd say...just watch the games. They'll develop their capacity for analysis only watching many games as possible.

No. That's always been a silly way to do it. People often don't understand what they watch, which is why avid fans can still be terrible students of the game. You'll never get to a point where stats are meaningless. They have their flaws, but they're not where you keep trying to put them. "Just watching games" leads to major confirmation bias, which you demonstrate by twisting any evidence to support your point and not providing any evidence of your own besides 'I know what I see.'


Game plan/strategy/tactics adjustments, players evolving games, sometimes only can be noticed by a careful observer.

:lol None of that is unquantifiable. Stats can track all that, to an extent to where they can show the trends before the 'careful observer' notices. More importantly none of that absolves a person from having to provide support for their opinions if they want to use them in a discussion. It doesn't have to be numbers -- it often shouldn't be numbers. But it has to be something.

[Yuixafun]

I can kind of see the big picture.

Being somewhat talented and also a bit prideful person.

The lead chef at work keeps downplaying some of the things I do at work, but it's to keep me level headed as I improve steadily.

Also... it does piss you off feeling the lack of recognition, but that creates a spark... and coming into maturity, I see things more clear for what they are.

So they can downplay, but you know the truth is somewhere in between, you aren't as good as you are starting to believe, but you aren't nowhere near as ass as they make out.

As long as Danny has learned to handle that type of "encouragement" he will continue to blossom and discover more depth in what he does.


One would be wise not to take things personal or assume, always do your current best, and say exactly what you mean.

[wildchild]

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying, "I think it because I think it." You assume Leonard is far superior in those areas, but you can provide no evidence of it. It doesn't have to be stats, but you literally bring nothing besides that statement, and it makes it hard to even discuss your opinion.
I was talking about how great is Leonard's off ball defense a lot on ST.
Even posted some ESPN graphic in the finals, about how he constantly denied the ball and denied space.


Often, they misremember the events, hence people forgetting that Russ was held in check in Game Four until Pop pulled his starters. That's something that's very easy to see by watching Game Four again, but people refuse to do so.
Misremembering the events of WCF? Westbrook scored only 2 points in the paint in game 5 but you had obviously deduced that Leonard's defense had nothing to do with that (or just a little bit).


Harden's been much better on defense this season. Even gestalt folks can see that. He wasn't putting these kind of numbers up when he was playing awful defense.
Harden can play better defense but no enough to rank higher than the other defenders, this is what is wrong with the stats and the stat-hoarders.


Eh, that's not really true. There were definitely stats that gave Bowen his due. It's just DRtg that didn't. DRAPM showed Bowen's worth, and it also bears out Green's consistent elite defensive impact. Are those stats perfect? Not at all. Does that mean they should be dismissed? No
If stats aren't perfect you shouldn't act like they are.
Talking about "evidence" I prefer a video of some play or sequence of the game, than look stats saying just the opposite I watch.

If you think I say "I think it because I saw it", all I read of you is "I think it because the stats said it"...since observations aren't perfert and neither the stats are, one view shouldn't be more reliable than the other.


People often don't understand what they watch
Yeah...People are so incompetent.
People's knowledge and common sense have been systematically underrated.
In fact, those elitist sports comments are as old as arguments to prevent some people to vote...after all people often don't understand what happens.

[james evans]

At least Danny's off ball defense is better than Gary Neal's :lol
other than tony parker and steve nash, what defense isn't?

[spursparker9]

other than tony parker and steve nash, what defense isn't?

Kobe with his "roaming" to help-team-defense.