It seems all you Leftists...

[Yonivore]

...have a friend in Hitler.

Leftists become incandescent when reminded of the socialist roots of Nazism (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100260720/whenever-you-mention-fascisms-socialist-roots-left-wingers-become-incandescent-why/)


As George Watson put it in The Lost Literature of Socialism:

It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists, and that others, including democratic socialists, thought so too.
The clue is in the name. Subsequent generations of Leftists have tried to explain away the awkward nomenclature of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party as either a cynical PR stunt or an embarrassing coincidence. In fact, the name meant what it said.

[boutons_deux]

yes, and Anne Coulter, mentally ill bomb thrower, says liberalism started with the French Revolution!

you right-wingers are nothing if not fucking dumbed down by your ideologies

[Warlord23]

Congrats, you're probably the dumbest poster on this sub-forum, and that's saying something. Hitler absolutely hated Communists/Marxists/leftists. Just because the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists" does not imply that they were left of center. Hitler advocated fascist policies and was an admirer of Mussolini. The left in Germany was his first victim before he turned his attention to Jews. Go read a history book or Mein Kampf and buy a clue.

The author of that article lost all credibility here in the UK when he went on Fox News and claimed that Britons hated the National Health Service and wanted it dismantled. Only the Daily Telegraph publishes his ramblings; he is a moron of the highest order. If you buy his argument, then Fascism = Marxism. That's like calling Mao and Lenin libertarians.

[ChumpDumper]

The clue is in the name. Subsequent generations of Leftists have tried to explain away the awkward nomenclature of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party as either a cynical PR stunt or an embarrassing coincidence. In fact, the name meant what it said.Not really.

[Yonivore]

Congrats, you're probably the dumbest poster on this sub-forum, and that's saying something. Hitler absolutely hated Communists/Marxists/leftists. Just because the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists" does not imply that they were left of center. Hitler advocated fascist policies and was an admirer of Mussolini. The left in Germany was his first victim before he turned his attention to Jews. Go read a history book or Mein Kampf and buy a clue.

The author of that article lost all credibility here in the UK when he went on Fox News and claimed that Britons hated the National Health Service and wanted it dismantled. Only the Daily Telegraph publishes his ramblings; he is a moron of the highest order. If you buy his argument, then Fascism = Marxism. That's like calling Mao and Lenin libertarians.
I think this...

To be absolutely clear, I don’t believe that modern Leftists have subliminal Nazi leanings, or that their loathing of Hitler is in any way feigned. That’s not my argument. What I want to do, by holding up the mirror, is to take on the equally false idea that there is an ideological continuum between free-marketers and fascists.

The idea that Nazism is a more extreme form of conservatism has insinuated its way into popular culture. You hear it, not only when spotty students yell “fascist” at Tories, but when pundits talk of revolutionary anti-capitalist parties, such as the BNP and Golden Dawn, as “far Right”.

What is it based on, this connection? Little beyond a jejune sense that Left-wing means compassionate and Right-wing means nasty and fascists are nasty. When written down like that, the notion sounds idiotic, but think of the groups around the world that the BBC, for example, calls “Right-wing”: the Taliban, who want communal ownership of goods; the Iranian revolutionaries, who abolished the monarchy, seized industries and destroyed the middle class; Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who pined for Stalinism. The “Nazis-were-far-Right” shtick is a symptom of the wider notion that “Right-wing” is a synonym for “baddie”.
...this was the larger point of the article.

[boutons_deux]

"Leftists have tried to explain ..."

that Daily Telegraph is as fair and balanced, and fucking stupid, as Fox Propaganda Network

[Yonivore]

"Leftists have tried to explain ..."

that Daily Telegraph is as fair and balanced, and fucking stupid, as Fox Propaganda Network
High praise, coming from you, boutons. High praise indeed.

[Yonivore]

Another interesting passage:


Jonah Goldberg has chronicled the phenomenon at length in his magnum opus, Liberal Fascism. Lots of people take offence at his title, evidently without reading the book since, in the first few pages, Jonah reveals that the phrase is not his own. He is quoting that impeccable progressive H.G. Wells who, in 1932, told the Young Liberals that they must become “liberal fascists” and “enlightened Nazis”.

In those days, most prominent Leftists intellectuals, including Wells, Jack London, Havelock Ellis and the Webbs, tended to favour eugenics, convinced that only religious hang-ups were holding back the development of a healthier species. The unapologetic way in which they spelt out the consequences have, like Hitler’s actual words, been largely edited from our discourse. Here, for example, is George Bernard Shaw in 1933:


Extermination must be put on a scientific basis if it is ever to be carried out humanely and apologetically as well as thoroughly… If we desire a certain type of civilisation and culture we must exterminate the sort of people who do not fit into it.
Eugenics, of course, topples easily into racism. Engels himself wrote of the “racial trash” – the groups who would necessarily be supplanted as scientific socialism came into its own. Season this outlook with a sprinkling of anti-capitalism and you often got Leftist anti-Semitism – something else we have edited from our memory, but which once went without saying. “How, as a socialist, can you not be an anti-Semite?” Hitler had asked his party members in 1920.
This immediately brought to my mind another of their contemporaries, Margaret Sanger...founder of Planned Parenthood and racist eugenicist extraordinaire.

[boutons_deux]

Another interesting passage:


This immediately brought to my mind another of their contemporaries, Margaret Sanger...founder of Planned Parenthood and racist eugenicist extraordinaire.

lot of your co-ideologists/racists/Repugs extraordinaire (naughty on you for using a cheee-eating surrender monkey word) in Southern/rural states were forcibly sterilizing (black) women until quite recently.

[baseline bum]

Holy fuck, Hitler's entire mission for revolution in Germany was to kill off the Communists and Social Democrats. Hitler as a left winger is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[Yonivore]

lot of your co-ideologists/racists/Repugs extraordinaire (naughty on you for using a cheee-eating surrender monkey word) in Southern/rural states were forcibly sterilizing (black) women until quite recently.
Let's see if I got this right; you're alleging Republicans had a policy/program that sterilized African-American women? Do tell, bouts.

[Yonivore]

Holy fuck, Hitler's entire mission for revolution in Germany was to kill off the Communists and Social Democrats. Hitler as a left winger is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
I think the guy is making the point that it's as stupid as associating Hitler (who was also anti-capitalist) with right wingers and that the Left only does so because they wan't to tar their ideological opponents by calling the worst name they can think of, Nazi. You have to concede, that is the go to for a lot of the Left - Nazi, fascist, etc... I think boutons may have even used the epithet in this thread already.

So, do you disagree with the quote attributed to George Bernard Shaw or with his characterization as a Leftist?

[boutons_deux]

Here's what the VRWC/Repugs/SCOTUS5 have produced in USA:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html

that fits USA's corporatocracy perfectly, 1984-style pervasive, deep spying by govt and BigCorp, militarization of the municipal, county, state police (blackshirts and jackboots next to go along with grenade-launchers and mounted 50mm cannon), empowerment of BigCorp while enfeebling employees and citizens.

America is so fucked and unfuckable.

But always silence from the right-wing pricks about the fuckedness as they enable the fuckedness by distractions about "socialism", abortion, voter fraud, Moses wrote the Consitution, LGBT destroying USA, illegal immigrants, "ISIS and Ebola coming to kill us all," etc, etc.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's apparently remarkably easy to distill the totality of any political ideology down to a buzzwords (or a singular policy) and use that as the basis to distance yourself from and place your foes close to a notion that only the most fringe of the fringe actually find meritorious.

[ElNono]

It's apparently remarkably easy to distill the totality of any political ideology down to a buzzwords (or a singular policy) and use that as the basis to distance yourself from and place your foes close to a notion that only the most fringe of the fringe actually find meritorious.

:lol

[Spurminator]

I think the guy is making the point that it's as stupid as associating Hitler (who was also anti-capitalist) with right wingers and that the Left only does so because they wan't to tar their ideological opponents by calling the worst name they can think of, Nazi.

So, the purpose of this thread was to say conservatives aren't Nazis. Good info.


You have to concede, that is the go to for a lot of the Left - Nazi, fascist, etc...

:lol, no you don't.

[Yonivore]

So, the purpose of this thread was to say conservatives aren't Nazis. Good info.
Glad to inform.


:lol, no you don't.
You're right, you don't. An observant person might concede that Conservative are often described as being fascists or Nazis.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bna.jpg

Comparing Republicans to Nazis — Who Started it? (http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/larry-elder/comparing-republicans-to-nazis-who-started-it/)

[RandomGuy]

...have a friend in Hitler.

Leftists become incandescent when reminded of the socialist roots of Nazism (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100260720/whenever-you-mention-fascisms-socialist-roots-left-wingers-become-incandescent-why/)

"It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists"

Interesting claim. "beyond all reasonable doubt".

Note:

RG has a degree in german, and quite a collection of German history books, specializing on German history in the 20th century, including Mein Kampf in the original german. While not an historian, I know quite a bit more than the average joe.

I'll look into it, "it" being the article. My guess is that it is another emotionally appealing bit of propaganda that you seem to enjoy consuming, and regurgitating.

[RandomGuy]

I will say though, that the Nazis were not what most people think of as modern right-wingers with an unabashed worship of the free market.

That is an easy enough thing to clarify and acknowledge.

[Yonivore]

RG has a degree in german...
Did you really just do that in the third person?


I know quite a bit more than the average joe.

Credentials are fairly meaningless in a political forum this insignificant. I mean, who's really going to test your knowledge? Do you know more than the author of the article? How would you prove it?

[RandomGuy]

To be absolutely clear, I don’t believe that modern Leftists have subliminal Nazi leanings, or that their loathing of Hitler is in any way feigned. That’s not my argument. What I want to do, by holding up the mirror, is to take on the equally false idea that there is an ideological continuum between free-marketers and fascists.

My guess was wrong. Interesting article that makes some fairly salient points.

Nazis were not, to the modern understanding "right-wingers", nor were they entirely "leftists".

They were something else entirely, and the article rightly points out that they don't quite fit into the modern "right-left' dynamic.

I would say though, that from what I have read about modern neo-nazi writings, were you to ask them about the free market, they would almost invariably sound suspiciously familiar.

One could understand the confusion.

[RandomGuy]

Did you really just do that in the third person?



Credentials are fairly meaningless in a political forum this insignificant. I mean, who's really going to test your knowledge? Do you know more than the author of the article? How would you prove it?

Happens occasionally, when I am providing narrative.

I could prove that I might know a bit more than average, had I the time or inclination by going back an re-reading mein kampf and simply writing an original article contrasting quotes from the text.

Don't have the time.

My knowledge is only relevant, because it enables me to ferret out bullshit a bit quicker. I hold myself out as an expert on a few things, and pretty knowledgeable in a lot of others. This is one of the things I would say I am pretty knowledgeable on.'

What I want to be knowledgeable about now.. .is dinner. L8ters.

[RandomGuy]

...

[m>s]

National socialism is center left economically and right wing socially

[Winehole23]

Nazism is right wing socialism?





(ducks)

[m>s]

National socialism is outside of the retarded american political spectrum. It's center left economically and conservative socially. Go away ducks.

[Winehole23]

claiming Nazism for the right wing makes sense to me. to Yoni, apparently not so much.

[Winehole23]

it's a mixture of the two, like you said. family values nationalism plus socialism.

[Winehole23]

a floor wax and a dessert topping

[RandomGuy]

National socialism is center left economically and right wing socially

Fairly accurate.

Hard to find a modern right winger in the US that fits that bill though.

[RandomGuy]

claiming Nazism for the right wing makes sense to me. to Yoni, apparently not so much.

Yonivore just liked the cherry picked quote that I am sure got threaded to him in a forwarded email, without all the follow up context from the article.

[baseline bum]

Fairly accurate.

Hard to find a modern right winger in the US that fits that bill though.

I don't think it fits socialism as practiced in Europe at all, as Hitler was all about suppressing class-consciousness and unionization, which are the pillars of Social Democracy. The comparisons between Republicans and the Nazis are because they're both highly nationalist parties that hide behind their respective flags. I think it's kind of ridiculous to throw the Nazi comparison at the American right since union busting and denying civil rights to gays is bad, but of course not in the same fucking ballpark as the genocide against the Jews or invading the Soviet Union and slaughtering their civilians by the millions.

[Yonivore]

I don't think it fits socialism as practiced in Europe at all, as Hitler was all about suppressing class-consciousness and unionization, which are the pillars of Social Democracy. The comparisons between Republicans and the Nazis are because they're both highly nationalist parties that hide behind their respective flags. I think it's kind of ridiculous to throw the Nazi comparison at the American right since union busting and denying civil rights to gays is bad, but of course not in the same fucking ballpark as the genocide against the Jews or invading the Soviet Union and slaughtering their civilians by the millions.
See RG, the author was spot on.

[m>s]

Fairly accurate.

Hard to find a modern right winger in the US that fits that bill though.
You're talking to one

[m>s]

I don't think it fits socialism as practiced in Europe at all, as Hitler was all about suppressing class-consciousness and unionization, which are the pillars of Social Democracy. The comparisons between Republicans and the Nazis are because they're both highly nationalist parties that hide behind their respective flags. I think it's kind of ridiculous to throw the Nazi comparison at the American right since union busting and denying civil rights to gays is bad, but of course not in the same fucking ballpark as the genocide against the Jews or invading the Soviet Union and slaughtering their civilians by the millions.


Neat story bro sounds as fake as the Anne frank diary tbh

go log into stalin and say something gay in response

[ElNono]

tangential

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-vernehmung/228158/

[boutons_deux]

Nazi conception of Heimat

The specific aspects of Heimat — love and attachment to homeland — left the idea vulnerable to easy assimilation into the fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) "blood and soil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_soil)" literature of the National Socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) since it is relatively easy to add to the positive feelings for the Heimat a rejection of anything foreign, that however is not there necessarily. It was conceived by the Nazis that the volk community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volk) is deeply rooted in the land of their heimat through their practice of agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture) and their ancestral lineage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy) going back hundreds and thousands of years. The Third Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Reich) was regarded at the deepest level as the sacred heimat of the unified volk community—the national slogan was One Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich), One Volk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volk), One Führer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer).

Those who were taken to Nazi concentration camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps) were those who were officially declared by theSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS) to be "enemies of the volk community" and thus a threat to the integrity and security of the heimat.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimat#cite_note-3)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimat

The Repugs' version of Nazi Heimat is "Homeland".

The Repugs' rabble-rousing strategy of racism, nativism, xenophobia, homophobia parallels closely to Nazi Heimat and Nazi's Aryan race.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

it's a mixture of the two, like you said. family values nationalism plus socialism.

I think that is only valid in the context of totalitarian socialism like Maoism and Stalinism. State control is the commonality but there is not much that is actually 'social' in it.

[angrydude]

Leftist ideologies warred against each other back then just like Christian sects warred against each other over what was the true version of Christianity.

Just like the sunnies fight the shiites.....

or wallstreet republicans fight tea party republicans...

Seriously, there are so many examples of this it hardly needs to be pointed out.

[angrydude]

I think that is only valid in the context of totalitarian socialism like Maoism and Stalinism. State control is the commonality but there is not much that is actually 'social' in it.

Socialism as an umbrella term pretty much refers to using state power..or just planning really... to try and create a utopia.... Whatever you think that should be.