The consequences of environmental hubris...

[Yonivore]

STUDY: YOUR ALL-ELECTRIC CAR MAY NOT BE SO GREEN (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCI_CLIMATE_FUEL_EFFECTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-12-15-15-01-37)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- People who own all-electric cars where coal generates the power may think they are helping the environment. But a new study finds their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming.

Ethanol isn't so green, either.

"It's kind of hard to beat gasoline" for public and environmental health, said study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the University of Minnesota. "A lot of the technologies that we think of as being clean ... are not better than gasoline."
Even notice how dirty and sooty an ethanol pump is? Nasty.

[boutons_deux]

corn ethanol and the ethanol mandate are insane REPUG inventions.

it's not EVs' fault that BigCoal is so dirty, and so resistant to becoming clean. It's REPUG states and AGs fighting EPA pollution rules, not EV mfrs, owners.

[ChumpDumper]

So coal and corn ethanol are bad.

OK, get rid of them.

Good article, yoni.

[Wild Cobra]

corn ethanol and the ethanol mandate are insane REPUG inventions.

it's not EVs' fault that BigCoal is so dirty, and so resistant to becoming clean. It's REPUG states and AGs fighting EPA pollution rules, not EV mfrs, owners.

When will you stop with your chronic lying?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?&congress=110&session=1&vote=00226

[SupremeGuy]

What are you doing using technology made and run by BigTech?

[Yonivore]

When will you stop with your chronic lying?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?&congress=110&session=1&vote=00226
I just wish he'd post in complete coherent sentences.

[Spurminator]

So basically the issue is the source of power from the power grid, not the car.

[boutons_deux]

When will you stop with your chronic lying?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?&congress=110&session=1&vote=00226

When will you pull you head out of your Repug ass?

"The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program regulations were developed in collaboration with refiners, renewable fuel producers, and many other stakeholders.
The RFS program was created under the Energy Policy Act (EPAct) of 2005, and established the first renewable fuel volume mandate in the United States"

The big ethanol states are nearly all red (rural, ignorant) states.

[ChumpDumper]

So basically the issue is the source of power from the power grid, not the car.Yep.

I agree with yoni that coal is bad.

[Yonivore]

So basically the issue is the source of power from the power grid, not the car.
Yes. An issue known and ignored by EV vehicle purchasers so they could claim to be more green than those in their Hummers (which, depending on where you live, are greener than EVs).

[Spurminator]

Yes. An issue known and ignored by EV vehicle purchasers so they could claim to be more green than those in their Hummers (which, depending on where you live, are greener than EVs).


Still, there's something to be said for the idea of helping foster a cleaner technology that will be better once it is connected to a cleaner grid, said study co-author Jason Hill, another University of Minnesota engineering professor.

[Yonivore]

Yep.

I agree with yoni that coal is bad.
I don't have a problem with coal. I have a problem with environmentalists thinking they've got it all figured out when, obviously, they don't.

Who remembers the fiasco of adding the oxygenate MTBE to gasoline in California. They're still recovering from that.

Gasoline cars are cleaner than they've ever been -- and they're only getting cleaner. Find an alternative and I'll use it when the gasoline runs out. Just don't force it down my throat.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't have a problem with coal.So what is your problem with electric cars?

[CosmicCowboy]

So what is your problem with electric cars?

I could hazard a guess from a pure scientific standpoint. Plug in where your electricity is generated by coal and the energy loss from burning coal for electricity, electricity to grid, electricity to car, electricity converted to power on road is significant. Lots dirtier than burning gas.

[ChumpDumper]

I could hazard a guess. Plug in where your electricity is generated by coal and the energy loss from burning coal for electricity, electricity to grid, electricity to car, electricity converted to power on road is significant. Lots dirtier than burning gas.But yoni doesn't have a problem with coal.

[Yonivore]

But yoni doesn't have a problem with coal.
Nope, I don't.

[ChumpDumper]

Nope, I don't.


So what is your problem with electric cars?

[Wild Cobra]

When will you pull you head out of your Repug ass?

"The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program regulations were developed in collaboration with refiners, renewable fuel producers, and many other stakeholders.
The RFS program was created under the Energy Policy Act (EPAct) of 2005, and established the first renewable fuel volume mandate in the United States"

The big ethanol states are nearly all red (rural, ignorant) states.

OK, show me the legislation and votes.

I showed you the one that mandated the ethanol usage. HR6 became public law 110-140.

What 2005 legislation are you speaking of? What were the votes?

Put up your shut up your sorry ass.

Who cares what the color of the state is? It was primarily a democrat feel-good stupid vote. Of course the farmers are going to appreciate the guaranteed demand, no matter what color they vote!

[Wild Cobra]

So what is your problem with electric cars?

Are you deliberately being daft to look for a strawman building contest and tear-down contest?


People who own all-electric cars where coal generates the power

[Wild Cobra]

I could hazard a guess from a pure scientific standpoint. Plug in where your electricity is generated by coal and the energy loss from burning coal for electricity, electricity to grid, electricity to car, electricity converted to power on road is significant. Lots dirtier than burning gas.

I would agree. I'll bet the percentage of energy in coal that makes it to the wheels is far less than the percentage of energy in gasoline making it to the wheels. That along with the aerosols of coal, vs. almost no pollution from modern car engines.

[Yonivore]

So what is your problem with electric cars?
Who said I had a problem with electric cars? I'd own a Tesla.

And, I don't really have a problem with the people that drive them or, the people that believe they're saving the environment by doing so. Good on them.

I just think people should be aware that, perhaps, electric vehicles aren't the great and wonderful solution some who have bought them believe they are. If you're truly buying and driving an electric vehicle to reduce pollution and/or your carbon footprint, perhaps you should know that driving one in an area where it is recharged using power from a coal-fired generating plant will have the opposite effect. Just sayin'.

[ChumpDumper]

Who said I had a problem with electric cars? I'd own a Tesla.

And, I don't really have a problem with the people that drive them or, the people that believe they're saving the environment by doing so. Good on them.OK.

Another great thread.

[Wild Cobra]

When will you pull you head out of your Repug ass?

"The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program regulations were developed in collaboration with refiners, renewable fuel producers, and many other stakeholders.
The RFS program was created under the Energy Policy Act (EPAct) of 2005, and established the first renewable fuel volume mandate in the United States"

The big ethanol states are nearly all red (rural, ignorant) states.

Maybe you should read and understand the law you speak of before you speak mistruths about it:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-109publ58/pdf/PLAW-109publ58.pdf

Please show me where in Public law 109-58, which is the legislation you speak of, where it mandated the year round 10% ethanol. It set up several test programs and incentives, but only mandated 10% blended fuel during high ozone seasons. States like mine, Oregon, have been doing this for years already. Republicans were for looking into these options, but against implementing them the two years later.

No...

You need to look no farther than your demonrats.

[Yonivore]

OK.

Another great thread.
Again, thank you.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure many people who buy electric cars are against relatively dirty sources of energy in principle, so I don't see the disconnect.

[Yonivore]

I'm sure many people who buy electric cars are against relatively dirty sources of energy in principle, so I don't see the disconnect.
Not a disconnect just the obliviousness (and, again, irony) of people buy a product thinking they're improving the environment when, in reality, they're making it worse.

[ChumpDumper]

Not a disconnect just the obliviousness (and, again, irony) of people buy a product thinking they're improving the environment when, in reality, they're making it worse.What makes you think they are oblivious?

Because someone told you they are?

[Yonivore]

What makes you think they are oblivious?

Because someone told you they are?
A) I'm not speaking of those who aren't claiming they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle.

b) I'm speaking of those that claim they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle when, in reality, they're not. And, yes, I've heard this from more than a few electric vehicle owners who lord it over us gas guzzlers that they're greener when, at night, they're plugging their cars into a coal-powered grid.

That's either oblivious or hypocritical.

[ChumpDumper]

A) I'm not speaking of those who aren't claiming they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle.

b) I'm speaking of those that claim they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle when, in reality, they're not. And, yes, I've heard this from more than a few electric vehicle owners who lord it over us gas guzzlers that they're greener when, at night, they're plugging their cars into a coal-powered grid.Oh, so it's an envy anecdote thing involving only people who lord things over you.

OK.

[boutons_deux]

"Lots dirtier than burning gas"

Simplistically, as always, you leave out the total life polluting cycle of gasoline, from drilling, shipping, refining, delivery. Refineries are HUGE polluters (but mostly untouchable due to you conservatives), and carcinogenic.

And then the Iraq war-for-oil was/is a HUGE source of pollution, and $2T+ out of taxpayers pockets. Oil tankers bringing to USA are about the most polluting transports on earth.

EVs power will gradually switch from coal, nuclear electricity to wind, power, renewable sources, in spite of your conservatives blocking renewables as much as possible, while gasoline/diesel vehicles will be stuck with polluting oil.

[Cry Havoc]

A) I'm not speaking of those who aren't claiming they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle.

b) I'm speaking of those that claim they're improving the environment by driving an electric vehicle when, in reality, they're not. And, yes, I've heard this from more than a few electric vehicle owners who lord it over us gas guzzlers that they're greener when, at night, they're plugging their cars into a coal-powered grid.

That's either oblivious or hypocritical.

You've got enough strawmen there to cover most of the Midwest in scarecrows.

[Wild Cobra]

"Lots dirtier than burning gas"

Simplistically, as always, you leave out the total life polluting cycle of gasoline, from drilling, shipping, refining, delivery. Refineries are HUGE polluters (but mostly untouchable due to you conservatives), and carcinogenic.


Are you suggesting coal doesn't have any similar issues?



EVs power will gradually switch from coal, nuclear electricity to wind, power, renewable sources, in spite of your conservatives blocking renewables as much as possible, while gasoline/diesel vehicles will be stuck with polluting oil.
Who are the conservatives blocking any of this? We conservatives embrace new technology when it isn't subsidized.

[boutons_deux]

Are you suggesting coal doesn't have any similar issues?

of course not, silly question

[QUOTE]Who are the conservatives blocking any of this? We conservatives embrace new technology when it isn't subsidized.

eg, AZ and FL are actively trying to kill distrubuted solar.

Red states in general have no incentives to stimulate distributed solar and the 1000s of new jobs solar brings. They do everything they can to protect/enable BigOil and BigCoal

[Wild Cobra]

Red states in general have no incentives to stimulate distributed solar and the 1000s of new jobs solar brings. They do everything they can to protect/enable BigOil and BigCoal
Incentives...

You mean subsidies, right?

What are they suppose to do?

Use tax dollars, that there is never enough of and tax productive citizens more to help create your liberal utopia?

If there isn't profit for the power companies to do this themselves, then why waste tax dollars for your wet dream?

Oh...

Do you have a response for me yet on post 18 and 23?

Since you are a chronic offender of mistruths handed down by your liberal talking point masters, how can anyone take a single word you say seriously, anyway?

[boutons_deux]

OK, show me the legislation and votes.

I showed you the one that mandated the ethanol usage. HR6 became public law 110-140.

What 2005 legislation are you speaking of? What were the votes?

Put up your shut up your sorry ass.

Who cares what the color of the state is? It was primarily a democrat feel-good stupid vote. Of course the farmers are going to appreciate the guaranteed demand, no matter what color they vote!

the quote above from: http://www.epa.gov/oms/fuels/renewablefuels/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005

"Who cares what the color of the state is?" politicians? :lol

[Cry Havoc]

Incentives...

You mean subsidies, right?

What are they suppose to do?

Use tax dollars, that there is never enough of and tax productive citizens more to help create your liberal utopia?

If there isn't profit for the power companies to do this themselves, then why waste tax dollars for your wet dream?

Oh...

Do you have a response for me yet on post 18 and 23?

Since you are a chronic offender of mistruths handed down by your liberal talking point masters, how can anyone take a single word you say seriously, anyway?

Where is your outrage for big oil getting subsidies for decades? Why is it more unacceptable for a new form of tech that's costly and still developing to get incentives to, you know, DEVELOP that tech than for existing oil companies to continue to make record profits at the expense of the public? You realize that incentives can actually spur innovation forward, yes?

Nah. You save your anger for where the GOP tells you to. Nothing more, nothing less. You rail against renewable like they are the most corrupt form of energy possible while Mum's the fucking word about big dirty oil.

[boutons_deux]

http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/tax-breaks-630.png

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks

[TeyshaBlue]

corn ethanol and the ethanol mandate are insane REPUG inventions.

it's not EVs' fault that BigCoal is so dirty, and so resistant to becoming clean. It's REPUG states and AGs fighting EPA pollution rules, not EV mfrs, owners.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211059&p=6424873&viewfull=1#post6424873

You were wrong then as you are now. Nothing new...just the same old, tired, asinine talking points.:rolleyes

[boutons_deux]

TB :lol my cute little stalker pipes up!

[TeyshaBlue]

Bitch meet slap.

[ElNono]

sup TeyshaBlue... how's the health, tbh?

[Wild Cobra]

the quote above from: http://www.epa.gov/oms/fuels/renewablefuels/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005

"Who cares what the color of the state is?" politicians? :lol


Where does it say that in the public law? And you believe a wiki quote as fact by a politician?

Quote from the public law I linked please. Not wiki, which is often in error of facts.

[TeyshaBlue]

sup TeyshaBlue... how's the health, tbh?

Health is good....thanks for asking. My job is keeping me really busy. Traveling like crazy but Im handling it well. Just don't have alot of time to post these last couple of months.

[boutons_deux]

Repugs controlled the WH and the Senate, but the Repugs, in full "we obstruct everything Dem" mode, just couldn't stop the Dems from forcing through the 2005 ethanol fiasco! :lol

[ElNono]

Health is good....thanks for asking. My job is keeping me really busy. Traveling like crazy but Im handling it well. Just don't have alot of time to post these last couple of months.

good to hear... busy is good :tu

[Wild Cobra]

Health is good....thanks for asking. My job is keeping me really busy. Traveling like crazy but Im handling it well. Just don't have alot of time to post these last couple of months.
Where have you been traveling? Ever make it to Portland?

[TeyshaBlue]

Where have you been traveling? Ever make it to Portland?

Nah...mainly south and midwest...lots of trips to Chicago.

[TeyshaBlue]

Love the northwest tho. Id love to retire in the Puget Sound area tbh.

[Wild Cobra]

Love the northwest tho. Id love to retire in the Puget Sound area tbh.

I know someone with a vacation home on Friday Harbor. Spent a couple weeks there once. I'm happy with a slightly lower latitude than the Seattle area.

[DarrinS]

Nah...mainly south and midwest...lots of trips to Chicago.

Ugh. Going in January.

[Cry Havoc]

http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/tax-breaks-630.png

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks



Just going to point this out again since it was ignored.

[Spanklin]

When will you stop with your chronic lying?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll040.xml

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?&congress=110&session=1&vote=00226

This is nothing more than a classic fight between the old and dying and the young and vibrant.


EV's were invented at a DNC to satisfy their angry, old, white conservative base who are afraid of the world changing i.e. global warming. Conservative old people will never change... always looking down on the generation that comes after them with contempt knowing there's nothing they can do to grasp onto the past when their health was there and times were happy. Other than bitch.


If it makes you feel good to pacify old farts on there death beds then I say go ahead and push for government funded EV technology that will do nothing but line the pockets of a few already billionaires. If you're young at heart and not scared to look outside your front windows then embrace global warming and enjoy the ride.