+/- and net rating number for the Spurs' roster

[itzsoweezee]

+/- numbers

1. Kawhi: 9.7
2. Duncan: 8.6
3. Ginobili: 7.8
4. Bonner: 6.7
5. Green: 6.5
6. Diaw: 5.9
7. Joseph: 3.7
8. Parker: 2.5
9. Splitter: 1.8
10. Baynes: 1.7
11. Anderson: -1.3
12. Belinelli: -1.4
13. Ayers: -6.8
14. Daye: -10.4

Net rating:
1. Kawhi: 12.1
2. Duncan: 9.5
3. Ginobili: 8.7
4. Green: 8.2
5. Bonner: 7.8
6. Diaw: 5.2
7. Splitter: 4.0
8. Joseph: 3.9
9. Parker: 3.9
10. Baynes: 2.6
11. Anderson: -0.6
12. Belinelli: -2.0
13. Ayers: -5.6
14. Daye: -5.7

Some takeaways:

Kawhi and Duncan are easily the best players on this team (if you people refuse to vote these two for the allstar team, you should stop calling yourselves Spurs fans)
San Antonio has probably two of the worst big men in the league on its roster
Parker is a slight downgrade from Joseph
Belinelli has been as bad as he's looked (the Mavs game notwithstanding)
Bonner continues to be some sort of plus/minus magician

[Mr Bones]

Where did you get these numbers? These are a little different: http://www.82games.com/1415/1415SAS.HTM

[Perry Mason]

Much of these numbers are nonsense and noise. Joseph is not better than Parker, one of the best PG's of his generation. Just stop the madness on this forum. Right now, Joseph benefits from playing with the starters. That's it. Put him back with the 3rd string and he goes back to poor +/-.

Parker this year has had (1) injuries, and (2) when not injured, instructions to defer more and get Kawhi involved. When TP has been healthy and less deferential this year, he has performed at a high level.

Parker also plays both with the starters and then to help a struggling second unit that is facing off against the other team's starters, so his +/- suffer for it.

Oh, and insofar as these stats have any value, the 2015 sample size is far too small.

[Malik Hairston]

I don't think these numbers are adjusted, tbh..

Unadjusted numbers are largely useless, as they don't factor teammates and units..better to look at adjusted numbers and/or 3/4/5-man unit numbers..

Parker and Ginobili have both been pretty terrible according to most metrics, though..Spurs can survive with 1 of them playing mediocre/below average ball in the playoffs(they did it with Manu playing poorly in 2013, and TP playing poorly in 2014), but not both..

[itzsoweezee]

I don't think these numbers are adjusted, tbh..

Unadjusted numbers are largely useless, as they don't factor teammates and units..better to look at adjusted numbers and/or 3/4/5-man unit numbers..

Parker and Ginobili have both been pretty terrible according to most metrics, though..Spurs can survive with 1 of them playing mediocre/below average ball in the playoffs(they did it with Manu playing poorly in 2013, and TP playing poorly in 2014), but not both..

I don't know about that. Duncan is #2 in the league in RPM, Leonard is #8, Green is #28, Manu is #45, Bonner #96, Joseph #110.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Much of these numbers are nonsense and noise. Joseph is not better than Parker, one of the best PG's of his generation. Just stop the madness on this forum. Right now, Joseph benefits from playing with the starters. That's it. Put him back with the 3rd string and he goes back to poor +/-.

Parker this year has had (1) injuries, and (2) when not injured, instructions to defer more and get Kawhi involved. When TP has been healthy and less deferential this year, he has performed at a high level.

Parker also plays both with the starters and then to help a struggling second unit that is facing off against the other team's starters, so his +/- suffer for it.

Oh, and insofar as these stats have any value, the 2015 sample size is far too small.

What he said.

[wildchild]

Like I've said before I'm not a huge fan of stats and I'm gonna take like mine these words.

Unjusted, adjusted numbers, metrics...Most of them are created using data that's captured in the box score and like coaches said most of what happens on the court isn't accounted for in the box...especially on defense.

Most of good plays don't get recognition in the box, but anyone watching the game would give those plays at least some of the credit for the opposite player not scoring.

For example...stats differentiate between forcing a bad shot taken in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock in the 2nd quarter and a bad shot taken during a fast break?
Denying the ball and the opposite player should battle for the ball and position, if the opposite player wastes energy and time, does the defender get credit for that? We see a lot of defensive stats about on-ball defense but not many about off-ball defense.

That's why I just talk about I watch. And Tim and Leonard are the best players of the team this season, I don't need stats to tell me that.

[Mikeanaro]

Bonner is indeed a mathematical genius.

[FireMicoHalili]

oh man littlecoyotecoin is going to love this list

[littlecoyotecoin]

oh man littlecoyotecoin (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=45419) is going to love this list

Way ahead of you.

[vander]

I don't think these numbers are adjusted, tbh..

Unadjusted numbers are largely useless, as they don't factor teammates and units..better to look at adjusted numbers and/or 3/4/5-man unit numbers..

Parker and Ginobili have both been pretty terrible according to most metrics, though..Spurs can survive with 1 of them playing mediocre/below average ball in the playoffs(they did it with Manu playing poorly in 2013, and TP playing poorly in 2014), but not both..

unadjusted on court/off court is the cold hard reality. sure, in small sample sizes it will be highly dependent on situation, but over the course of the season...

[Chinook]

For example...stats differentiate between forcing a bad shot taken in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock in the 2nd quarter and a bad shot taken during a fast break?

Plenty of stats break that out. However, if there are so many cases of teams taking desperation shots at the end of the clock that it dominates a statistically viable sample, then it's probably not excusable.


Denying the ball and the opposite player should battle for the ball and position, if the opposite player wastes energy and time, does the defender get credit for that?

It's possible that that doesn't really make a difference. If a guy scores 20 points on 12 possessions, then it's hard to give a defender a lot of credit, especially if it happens enough to get a viable sample size.


We see a lot of defensive stats about on-ball defense but not many about off-ball defense.

Two things. First, you posted an article exploring Green's off-ball defense which had its share of stats in it. So there are definitely ways that's quantified. Second, on-ball defense is what's really not captured by stats, especially forcing passes. PPP captures both, but stats like RAPM don't do anything for on-ball defense.

Again, no stat is perfect, and that's especially true for advanced defensive metrics. But when you have huge sample sizes, stats like PPP and plus-minus are really sound. They say what they say emphatically. It's just individuals will sometimes draw the wrong conclusions from them.

[Chinook]

unadjusted on court/off court is the cold hard reality. sure, in small sample sizes it will be highly dependent on situation, but over the course of the season...

It's like I just said in my last post. Huge sample sizes for stats do make them compelling. However, even strong sample sizes don't make up for incorrect interpretations. Bonner was not the best Spur for all those years he was the PM king. However, it was true that him being on the court helped the offense to an amazing degree.

There's a reason why people came up with APMs in the first place.

[Malik Hairston]

unadjusted on court/off court is the cold hard reality. sure, in small sample sizes it will be highly dependent on situation, but over the course of the season...

That doesn't make any sense:lol

[vander]

That doesn't make any sense:lol

oh really

[Malik Hairston]

oh really

So, Michael Jordan plays with Jeff Ayres, Cory Joseph, Luke Babbitt and Meyers Leonard vs. other NBA units..what happens to his +/- number?

[Spursfanfromafar]

A simple look at RPM will tell you that Kawhi & Tim Duncan are among the best players in the league, mostly due to their immense role in defense. It is clear that Duncan is the best interior defender (barring Bogut) and Kawhi the best perimeter defender.

Manu's RPM numbers are also quite good, not his best ever, but very good considering he is 38 years old!

Tony Parker's numbers are very very bad. His defensive numbers are kaput, actually. Hopefully when he gets over his injuries, he will be back to his normal self. Considering he has expanded his offensive game, the hope is not misplaced.

Danny and Cory have also improved. Danny is just behind Kawhi in perimeter defense. I wouldn't be surprised if all of Danny, Timmy and Kawhi are considered among the All Defensive Teams in the league.

[vander]

So, Michael Jordan plays with Jeff Ayres, Cory Joseph, Luke Babbitt and Meyers Leonard vs. other NBA units..what happens to his +/- number?

that's a fun convenient little situation, and if any coach did that for more than 20 minutes in a season he would find himself out of a job. meanwhile in the real world, thousands of other substitutions are being made, and the other units with MJ recover while the units with any combo of the other 4 guys get even worse. on/off court is as simple and absolute as the total score at the end of the game.

[mkurts]

Daye defenders arise ! Protect his balls !

[Malik Hairston]

that's a fun convenient little situation, and if any coach did that for more than 20 minutes in a season he would find himself out of a job. meanwhile in the real world, thousands of other substitutions are being made, and the other units with MJ recover while the units with any combo of the other 4 guys get even worse. on/off court is as simple and absolute as the total score at the end of the game.

Which is why I said unit numbers are far more useful..

Looking at an individual's unadjusted number is extremely flawed, there are hundreds of instances which demonstrate that..