Let's be real, Danny Green is getting the max

[Cklbmk]

He's arguably the best 3 and D player in the league and he's starting to show signs of more. He is also pretty clutch. Someone is going to offer him the max thinking he can help take them to another level.

Who's going to poach him?

[Johnny RIngo]

8 mil/year from the Spurs would be more than fair IMO.

[SupremeGuy]

I think teams are starting to learn their lessons with regards to overpaying our role players expecting them to become stars. I mean, are Neal and Blair still even in the league?

Also, it's hard to justify giving someone who can't even create their own shot a max contract.

[Richie]

If he gets the max fair play to him, thank him for his service and wish him well on his new team.

He won't get 10 figures from the Spurs.

[Holden_Caulfield]

hes wayyyy better than alec burks for sure and that nigga got paaaaaaaaaaaaid

[hitmantb]

He is top 5 in the league in +/- among shooting guards.

43% in 3's makes him one of the most scary weapons out there, a whole 0.5% higher than Stephen Curry.

Basically when he shoots a 3, it is worth more points than a field goal from peak Shaq. He has a super fast release too, he didn't break finals three point shooting for no reason.

[Malik Hairston]

^^ Neal has been the same player with Charlotte, the only difference is that they're a terrible offensive team that doesn't pass the ball..

George Hill hasn't been any different with Indiana, too..



Anyways, Green won't get the max, but he's going to get a huge deal, especially since mainstream "analysts" are beginning to recognize him(JVG calling him one of the most underrated defenders in the league, Zach Lowe has praised him a lot, Mike Breen said the same thing as JVG on Christmas IIRC, etc)..analytics regard him as a top-tier perimeter impact player, which is relevant in today's league where front offices are all becoming heavily influenced by the metrics..

The Spurs "system" is extremely overrated, just look at the drop-off from Kawhi/Green to the backup perimeter players:lol..

[elemento]

Zero chance this happens.

[Malik Hairston]

Of course he isn't going to get max, that's silly, btw..he's going to get at least 9 per year, though IMO..

[DPG21920]

^^ Neal has been the same player with Charlotte, the only difference is that they're a terrible offensive team that doesn't pass the ball..

George Hill hasn't been any different with Indiana, too..



Anyways, Green won't get the max, but he's going to get a huge deal, especially since mainstream "analysts" are beginning to recognize him(JVG calling him one of the most underrated defenders in the league, Zach Lowe has praised him a lot, Mike Breen said the same thing as JVG on Christmas IIRC, etc)..analytics regard him as a top-tier perimeter impact player, which is relevant in today's league where front offices are all becoming heavily influenced by the metrics..

The Spurs "system" is extremely overrated, just look at the drop-off from Kawhi/Green to the backup perimeter players:lol..

What? Spurs more than any team win at a better clip while missing key pieces. It's a testament to be in games and even win so many over the years while missing several of your top players.

[Cklbmk]

I could see Philly throwing a big offer at him.

MCW-MCDaniels-Green-Noel-Embiid could be a VERY scary lineup both offensively and defensively

All 5 are above average shotblockers.

MCW-Mcdaniels-Green could just switch on everyone and have amazing defense.

Noel and Embiid patrolling the paint for anyone who happens to get through.

Beastly.

[hitmantb]

He should at least get a comparable deal to:

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2386/andre-iguodala

Superior in every way and perform the same function.

[look_at_g_shred]

4 years 40 million book it!

[Malik Hairston]

What? Spurs more than any team win at a better clip while missing key pieces. It's a testament to be in games and even win so many over the years while missing several of your top players.

Many teams in the league win without key players, it happens all the time with other top teams..

Sure, the Spurs are better at it than other teams, but the "Pop's system" argument has gone way too far..if his system could win with anybody, the team would have won with Jefferson/Bogans/Mason and wouldn't see such a massive drop-off with Belinelli on the floor..this team's record without Leonard and Green speaks for itself, tbh, especially without Kawhi..

I even see casual fans on other forums making ludicrous claims like "Duncan benefits because of Pop's system", which is sad, tbh..

[DPG21920]

The system over the years has been great and allowed Pop to rest players/manage minutes with staggering results. This is one year with injuries to numerous key players and where the West is just playing great basketball at the moment. I guess you can call it overrated, but when it's the best system in basketball it just seems unecessary IMO..

[r0drig0lac]

44/4

[benstanfield]

Not really comparable to all these younger guys getting maxed out after their rookie contracts. Ariza's deal should be where negotiations start, I would throw max years at him tbh but only teams that are on the cusp of competing are really gonna go after him IMO. OKC, LAC, Indiana make sense as suitors.

[apalisoc_9]

The system is extremely overrated.

Mainstream fans think it doesn't matter who is on the floor..They would still be a really good team.

In reality, the spurs have a 0.40 record without Kawhi in the last two years....:lol

And going down....:lol

[hitmantb]

Not really comparable to all these younger guys getting maxed out after their rookie contracts. Ariza's deal should be where negotiations start, I would throw max years at him tbh but only teams that are on the cusp of competing are really gonna go after him IMO. OKC, LAC, Indiana make sense as suitors.

Every contender needs a player like him.

I agree he is not that amazing on a crappy team, but his effectiveness scales exponentially when you have more weapons on the floor. The fact he plays off the ball makes him that much better for contenders.

I don't think he needs the Spurs system at all to be effective. Can you imagine if he is playing with Durant or LeBron?

[pgardn]

No way.

He still is, at best, a bad ball handler ( but improved; hard not to). His finishing while dribbling any length of court is still an adventure.

What he has done is to show he can step up and make a really big difference. He can more than make up for our team deficiencies with great D, huge 3 point shooting, and much better decision making than other years. His rebounding is stellar for a 3. He is integral in any playoff run. We must have him back. He has definitely earned some money.

Green is going to have to find a very particular niche team role to shine like he has with us though. But he may not care because as of right now, cash is coming his way next contract.

Marco meanwhile, has not taken advantage of the numerous chances injury to teammates has given him. Green turned the corner and took off.

[SupremeGuy]

The system is extremely overrated.

Mainstream fans think it doesn't matter who is on the floor..They would still be a really good team.

In reality, the spurs have a 0.40 record without Kawhi in the last two years....:lol

And going down....:lolDude, I'm a huge, and I mean fucking HUGE Kawhi fan, but for fuck's sake take that nigga's dick out your mouth. It's not funny anymore, it's just kinda creepy now.

[hitmantb]

It is not a niche role at all.

Most contenders have multiple ball handlers. You look at a team like Cavs, Rockets, Thunder, Warriors, any of the contenders in the league, being able to play off the ball and be a huge threat as a floor spacer is invaluable. So many players can not produce at all without heavy ball handling to "warm up" and "get into the groove". Not Danny. He doesn't need a ton of touches to start hitting 3's.

[pgardn]

It is not a niche role at all.

Most contenders have multiple ball handlers. You look at a team like Cavs, Rockets, Thunder, Warriors, any of the contenders in the league, being able to play off the ball and be a huge threat as a floor spacer is invaluable. So many players can not produce at all without heavy ball handling to "warm up" and "get into the groove". Not Danny. He doesn't need a ton of touches to start hitting 3's.


No.

When you have a 3 that can't handle its a niche. Guys somewhat like him, Brewer / Ariza for example, are NOT primary ball handlers, but they do have the skill. This is in imo, what really prevents Green from big bucks.

[pgardn]

And I totally agree with your insight on his ability to hit a 3 cold.


It's quite amazing that he does not need to feel the ball much to hit his shots.

[hater]

Green > Kawhi >>>>>>> Evita >>>> Benchinelli imo

:tu

[tholdren]

He is top 5 in the league in +/- among shooting guards.

Plus minus is the shit Stat of all time. Has zero bearing on player individual performance. .... zero

43% in 3's makes him one of the most scary weapons out there, a whole 0.5% higher than Stephen Curry.

Basically when he shoots a 3, it is worth more points than a field goal from peak Shaq. He has a super fast release too, he didn't break finals three point shooting for no reason.

[hater]

he's still a 1 trick pony but he's probably the best 1 trick pony in NBA history :lol

[Malik Hairston]

No.

When you have a 3 that can't handle its a niche. Guys somewhat like him, Brewer / Ariza for example, are NOT primary ball handlers, but they do have the skill. This is in imo, what really prevents Green from big bucks.

Ball-handlers and volume scorers are by far the easiest roles to fill on an NBA team, tbh..

Every single good team in the NBA creates a ton of open shots, it's very easy..finding elite 2-way players is very difficult, there are very few in the NBA..

[Chinook]

What? Spurs more than any team win at a better clip while missing key pieces. It's a testament to be in games and even win so many over the years while missing several of your top players.

Spurs have better talent than any team in the league. That's why they can survive injuries. You can see that there is a drop-off from Mills and Splitter to Daye and Ayres. That's not a system thing.

[pgardn]

Ball-handlers and volume scorers are by far the easiest roles to fill on an NBA team, tbh..

Every single good team in the NBA creates a ton of open shots, it's very easy..finding elite 2-way players is very difficult, there are very few in the NBA..

So you are saying if he could dribble well it would decrease his value? Or this would somehow diminish his other talents?

Whoa...

Its probably why we have a chance to keep him.

[hater]

So you are saying if he could dribble well it would decrease his value? Or this would somehow diminish his other talents?

Whoa...

Its probably why we have a chance to keep him.

If green could handle the ball and create shots he would be the next Brandon Roy playing elsewhere IMO

as I said right now he's possibly ahead of Bowen as the best 1 trick pony - piece of the puzzle in NBA history

[pgardn]

If green could handle the ball and create shots he would be the next Brandon Roy playing elsewhere IMO

as I said right now he's possibly ahead of Bowen as the best 1 trick pony - piece of the puzzle in NBA history

What is his ONE trick?

[hater]

What is his ONE trick?

shooting 3s IMO

[Malik Hairston]

So you are saying if he could dribble well it would decrease his value? Or this would somehow diminish his other talents?

Whoa...

Its probably why we have a chance to keep him.

I'm saying every player that isn't a 2-way superstar(which is rare) has a niche in the NBA..

Green's inability to consistently create for himself doesn't dilute his value, his niche is one of the most difficult roles to fill in the league..

I'd have to check the numbers again, but he also has one of the best "gravitational pull" rankings in the league(Steph Curry is by far #1, for example)..his presence helps create for others without him even needing to physically pass them the ball..

[pgardn]

shooting 3s IMO


His D is stellar imo.

[Brunodf]

4/10 . There is no way Green will get more than 10 mil/yr from the Spurs...

He still make too many mistakes, his off ball defense is not good and his shooting is very inconsistent...

[hater]

His D is stellar imo.

this is a requirement for 1 trick ponies IMO

[timmy2003]

Did Bruce Bowen get a max contract in his prime?

[look_at_g_shred]

this is a requirement for 1 trick ponies IMO
Then that would make him a 2 trick pony

[RD2191]

Then that would make him a 2 trick pony
:lol

[hater]

Then that would make him a 2 trick pony

disagree. 1 trick ponies are required to be stellar defenders.

[Mr Bones]

^^ Neal has been the same player with Charlotte, the only difference is that they're a terrible offensive team that doesn't pass the ball..


The Spurs "system" is extremely overrated, just look at the drop-off from Kawhi/Green to the backup perimeter players:lol..

[hater]

Did Bruce Bowen get a max contract in his prime?

boom

[pgardn]

I'm saying every player that isn't a 2-way superstar(which is rare) has a niche in the NBA..

Green's inability to consistently create for himself doesn't dilute his value, his niche is one of the most difficult roles to fill in the league..

I'd have to check the numbers again, but he also has one of the best "gravitational pull" rankings in the league(Steph Curry is by far #1, for example)..his presence helps create for others without him even needing to physically pass them the ball..

I dont know any gravity formulas other than F = ( GMm)/r^2
Yes, hitting 3's and moving into the proper positions on the floor to allow for his shot and create room for others is a very nice quality he has.

[hitmantb]

Did Bruce Bowen get a max contract in his prime?

Did Bruce Bowen breaks 3's record in NBA finals? Danny almost single-handedly kept Spurs in the series. When did Bowen ever have that kind of offensive impact for five games straight in a playoff series?

The game also changed enough from the Bowen era, 3 and D is valued a lot more now if you look at the contracts being handed out. With the new broadcast deal Danny will make 10 million plus from some contender.

[hater]

at this point I put Green in the same pedestal as prime Bowen IMO. not as good a defender but a much much better shooter. at this moment I probably take Green ahead of Bowen, but not by much

[timmy2003]

Did Bruce Bowen breaks 3's record in NBA finals? Danny almost single-handedly kept Spurs in the series.

lol
Miami didnt show enough respect in his shot. Tony made some huge shots in the series, Tim was consistent on both ends of the floor, and Kawhi did a decent job on James.

[pgardn]

Bowen brought a disruptive quality that got into opponents heads that Danny does not seem to have the personality for. Bowen played mental games. Good stuff.

[Raven]

Green > Kawhi >>>>>>> Evita >>>> Benchinelli imo

:tu

weeeeeell weeeeeell weeeeeeell... giving up on the ferrari and going all dodge viper on us ? :lol

[hater]

weeeeeell weeeeeell weeeeeeell... giving up on the ferrari and going all dodge viper on us ? :lol

not denying he's having a ROUGH year. imo shit happens

[spursparker9]

How is the Danny's relationship with Lebron?

[hitmantb]

I'm saying every player that isn't a 2-way superstar(which is rare) has a niche in the NBA..

Green's inability to consistently create for himself doesn't dilute his value, his niche is one of the most difficult roles to fill in the league..

I'd have to check the numbers again, but he also has one of the best "gravitational pull" rankings in the league(Steph Curry is by far #1, for example)..his presence helps create for others without him even needing to physically pass them the ball..

There are a lot of players who think they can create themselves and end up being ball hogs and create conflicts with true stars of the team, and need a lot of touches to get going.

The way Danny can start hitting from range WITHOUT touching the ball is an unbelievable quality. In today's NBA spacing is PREMIUM, it allows for easier drives to the paint, it allows for better ball movement, like I said before Danny's 3 point attempts average more points than prime Shaq, that is how deadly he is and that alone creates more than enough opportunities for others.

[Raven]

disagree. 1 trick ponies are required to be stellar defenders.

antony morrow?

[pgardn]

weeeeeell weeeeeell weeeeeeell... giving up on the ferrari and going all dodge viper on us ? :lol

Leonard is the future.
Hes trolling or on mushrooms.

[Raven]

Leonard is the future.
Hes trolling or on mushrooms.

wtf are you even talking about tbh

[pgardn]

There are a lot of players who think they can create themselves and end up being ball hogs and create conflicts with true stars of the team, and need a lot of touches to get going.

The way Danny can start hitting from range WITHOUT touching the ball is an unbelievable quality. In today's NBA spacing is PREMIUM, it allows for easier drives to the paint, it allows for better ball movement, like I said before Danny's 3 point attempts average more points than prime Shaq, that is how deadly he is and that alone creates more than enough opportunities for others.

Thats fine. But when he steals the ball and has trouble getting to the rim for a layup if dribbling is required, that's not good. The guy gives me heart attacks in the open floor on breaks dribbling. He has improved however.

[hater]

antony morrow?

we are obviously talking about championship contenders.

[pgardn]

wtf are you even talking about tbh

Leonard< Green as a statement.
I think that's Fkn stupid.

Got it?

[Malik Hairston]

Bowen was great and all, but he also had one of the 5 greatest defensive players of all-time anchoring the defense behind him, and Alonzo Mourning behind him in Miami:lol..

[SupremeGuy]

Did Bruce Bowen get a max contract in his prime?You have a solid argument, but it really is different times we're living in, tbh. GMs are throwing max money at anyone these days.

[Chinook]

Bowen brought a disruptive quality that got into opponents heads that Danny does not seem to have the personality for. Bowen played mental games. Good stuff.

Eh, mind games are overrated. Most of the elite perimeter defenders nowadays don't do that stuff. If Danny consistently holds his guys to low PPPs and has great on/off metrics, his methodology shouldn't matter. Hell, Lebron is possibly his best friend in the league, and that didn't stop Danny from making the greatest defensive play in Spurs history against him.


Thats fine. But when he steals the ball and has trouble getting to the rim for a layup if dribbling is required, that's not good. The guy gives me heart attacks in the open floor on breaks dribbling. He has improved however.

You can focus on the flaws of any player. You don't think Klay has problems dribbling or playing off shooters?

[pgardn]

Eh, mind games are overrated. Most of the elite perimeter defenders nowadays don't do that stuff. If Danny consistently holds his guys to low PPPs and has great on/off metrics, his methodology shouldn't matter. Hell, Lebron is possibly his best friend in the league, and that didn't stop Danny from making the greatest defensive play in Spurs history against him.



You can focus on the flaws of any player. You don't think Klay has problems dribbling or playing off shooters?

Not near the level of Green, no I dont.

[phxspurfan]

You have a solid argument, but it really is different times we're living in, tbh. GMs are throwing max money at anyone these days.

This is true. I think Danilo Gallniari got a huge ass contract. Possibly the most undeserving ever

[pgardn]

Eh, mind games are overrated. Most of the elite perimeter defenders nowadays don't do that stuff. If Danny consistently holds his guys to low PPPs and has great on/off metrics, his methodology shouldn't matter. Hell, Lebron is possibly his best friend in the league, and that didn't stop Danny from making the greatest defensive play in Spurs history against him.



You can focus on the flaws of any player. You don't think Klay has problems dribbling or playing off shooters?

Not with Bowen. They may not work in today's NBA.

Bowen's footwork on D was once in a franchise type stuff.
Danny's ability to disrupt at the rim on seemingly easy finishes is amazing.

[look_at_g_shred]

This is true. I think Danilo Gallniari got a huge ass contract. Possibly the most undeserving ever
Actually that dude was ballin before his injury in 2013. Speaking of undeserving, let's talk Hayward (insert sick emoji)

[Chinook]

Not near the level of Green, no I dont.

Then you illustrate the effect comments from coaches has on perception. Green's only had nine lost-ball turnovers to Klay's 18, and before you say that's because Klay handles the ball more, Klay has 58 total TOs to Green's 41. So Thompson has more of his TOs from bad handles than Danny does. Danny shoots 48 percent from two, while Thompson shoots 47 percent. Klay's better at layups, (66 percent to Danny's 63 percent), but on shots from 3-10 feet (floaters, runners, hooks), Danny is at 44 percent while Thompson is at 39 percent. So Green's actually better at shots that require adjustment on the drive.

There's not much evidence to show why Thompson is worth twice as much as Green. If Klay can get the max, Danny can probably get somewhere close to it. He won't (thank the stars), but he could.

[Chinook]

Not with Bowen. They may not work in today's NBA.

Bowen's footwork on D was once in a franchise type stuff.
Danny's ability to disrupt at the rim on seemingly easy finishes is amazing.

Yeah, they were different and great in their own ways. But people should remember that Bowen would hold his guards to their averages, just with them putting in more effort. Green and Leonard go far, far beyond that. The standard for good perimeter defense (statistically) is so much higher now than it was in Bowen's time.

[TheGreatYacht]

The system is extremely overrated.

Mainstream fans think it doesn't matter who is on the floor..They would still be a really good team.

In reality, the spurs have a 0.40 record without Kawhi in the last two years....:lol

And going down....:lol
About time you speak the truth. People think no other team will get Danny Green open :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Bowen is my favorite spur during the Big 3 era, but no way I take him over Green who is a much better offensive player.

That's just retarded Nostalgia BS.

[look_at_g_shred]

Yeah, they were different and great in their own ways. But people should remember that Bowen would hold his guards to their averages, just with them putting in more effort. Green and Leonard go far, far beyond that. The standard for good perimeter defense (statistically) is so much higher now than it was in Bowen's time.
Because that is what drives the NBA these days...the 3 ball. The game isn't the same.

[timtonymanu]

Green > Bowen.

And Bruce will always be my dude.

[ElNono]

Then you illustrate the effect comments from coaches has on perception. Green's only had nine lost-ball turnovers to Klay's 18, and before you say that's because Klay handles the ball more, Klay has 58 total TOs to Green's 41. So Thompson has more of his TOs from bad handles than Danny does. Danny shoots 48 percent from two, while Thompson shoots 47 percent. Klay's better at layups, (66 percent to Danny's 63 percent), but on shots from 3-10 feet (floaters, runners, hooks), Danny is at 44 percent while Thompson is at 39 percent. So Green's actually better at shots that require adjustment on the drive.

There's not much evidence to show why Thompson is worth twice as much as Green. If Klay can get the max, Danny can probably get somewhere close to it. He won't (thank the stars), but he could.

How much more does Klay handle the ball than Danny though? Also, how do assisted vs unassisted shots compare between them?

[Chinook]

Because that is what drives the NBA these days...the 3 ball. The game isn't the same.

What?

[baseline bum]

I have been saying for a year that this dude's gonna be getting paid $9 million a year or so on his next deal.

[ElNono]

FWIW, I thought Klay was overpaid

[Chinook]

How much more does Klay handle the ball than Danny though? Also, how do assisted vs unassisted shots compare between them?

His USG% is about 60 percent higher than Green's and his percentage of assisted shots is about 10 points higher for both twos and threes. But that can also be a system thing. The Spurs have a crazy-high assist ratio.

[look_at_g_shred]

What?
The standard for good perimeter defense is higher these days.

[Chinook]

FWIW, I thought Klay was overpaid

Who doesn't? Danny would be massively overpaid if he got a max deal, or anything above $9 Million a year. But I just don't think it's true that Green's lack of dribbling is what separates him from the Thompsons and Iggys of the league.

[ducks]

I have been saying for a year that this dude's gonna be getting paid $9 million a year or so on his next deal.

dude goes off again and gets over 20 threes in finals he will get a max offer by a team

[Chinook]

The standard for good perimeter defense is higher these days.

It is. But what does that have to do with the three-ball? Green and Leonard are not just expected to make life difficult for their guys anymore. They're expected to shut them the hell down, which was not true for Bowen.

[ElNono]

His USG% is about 60 percent higher than Green's and his percentage of assisted shots is about 10 points higher for both twos and threes. But that can also be a system thing. The Spurs have a crazy-high assist ratio.

I'm on the phone now, can't check, but IIRC Klay's unassisted 2s went up this season, probably trying to live up to his deal, I suspect. Personally, I'd like Green to get paid and keep him just on his defensive prowess alone. I think he's miles behind Klay on ball handling (and this is my perception from watching games, not hearing anybody), but so much more advanced on the footwork and defensive side. He's the ideal 3-D guy right now, and any team can use a guy like that.

[look_at_g_shred]

It is. But what does that have to do with the three-ball? Green and Leonard are not just expected to make life difficult for their guys anymore. They're expected to shut them the hell down, which was not true for Bowen.
I'm saying that they have way more responsibility to guard the 3 ball way more than what Bowen was expected to/do because of the fact that the game has changed. I believe that green/leonard deserve every penny they are going to get. Bowen was a great defender, but was not moving without the ball to get a 3 ball. Bowen was a horrid free throw shooter. He never had the green light to pull up for a 3 on the break. Speaking of breaks, danny green is elite at defending them.

[hitmantb]

Bowen had prime Duncan behind him on defense, and prime Parker/Ginobili so his lack of offense was not a problem.

Danny/Kwahi are far stronger than any wing combo in the history of the Spurs franchise to be able to work with 38 years old Duncan to an NBA title over LeBron. Their offensive production is what drains the other team's energy. The opposing stars forced to guard Kwahi or chase Danny all over the floor ensure by late game, they are short on stamina. Against Bowen they just had it too easy.

[Chinook]

I'm on the phone now, can't check, but IIRC Klay's unassisted 2s went up this season, probably trying to live up to his deal, I suspect. Personally, I'd like Green to get paid and keep him just on his defensive prowess alone. I think he's miles behind Klay on ball handling (and this is my perception from watching games, not hearing anybody), but so much more advanced on the footwork and defensive side. He's the ideal 3-D guy right now, and any team can use a guy like that.

Danny's main problem with the ball in his hands is not the actually dribbling; it's his decision-making in the paint. He too often passes the ball looking for someone to bail him out when he doesn't have a plan. He rarely gives the ball when the big is in good position to do something with it. That is also why the bulk of his TOs are from bad passes. Honestly, he needs more practice in PnR situations, so he can develop more chemistry with the bigs. I think everyone's perception of his offensive talent would change if he can get that part down.

[Chinook]

I'm saying that they have way more responsibility to guard the 3 ball way more than what Bowen was expected to/do because of the fact that the game has changed. I believe that green/leonard deserve every penny they are going to get. Bowen was a great defender, but was not moving without the ball to get a 3 ball. Bowen was a horrid free throw shooter. He never had the green light to pull up for a 3 on the break. Speaking of breaks, danny green is elite at defending them.

But I'm not talking about offense at all. I'm saying Green and Leonard hold their guys to lower numbers than Bowen did, to the point that we come to expect them to do things that Bowen didn't do himself. It's not about the three -- it's about them just holding their guards to lower point totals and worse efficiency. Forget mindgames and getting a guy to work. Lock n Lock just get it done.

[ElNono]

Danny's main problem with the ball in his hands is not the actually dribbling; it's his decision-making in the paint. He too often passes the ball looking for someone to bail him out when he doesn't have a plan. He rarely gives the ball when the big is in good position to do something with it. That is also why the bulk of his TOs are from bad passes. Honestly, he needs more practice in PnR situations, so he can develop more chemistry with the bigs. I think everyone's perception of his offensive talent would change if he can get that part down.

It really is his decision making with the ball, and poor precision on passing (surprisingly he's pretty good on the short bounce pass, it's all the others). He also reacts poorly to on the ball pressure in general. The latter is rarely an issue for good ball handlers, and I think that's where a lot of the perception comes from. I think he does lack certain confidence, but that's workable, that's why I rather keep him if possible.

[look_at_g_shred]

But I'm not talking about offense at all. I'm saying Green and Leonard hold their guys to lower numbers than Bowen did, to the point that we come to expect them to do things that Bowen didn't do himself. It's not about the three -- it's about them just holding their guards to lower point totals and worse efficiency. Forget mindgames and getting a guy to work. Lock n Lock just get it done.
For the record, I think the tandem of leonard and green are way better than the body of work Bowen ever did. Just to be clear.

[pgardn]

Then you illustrate the effect comments from coaches has on perception. Green's only had nine lost-ball turnovers to Klay's 18, and before you say that's because Klay handles the ball more, Klay has 58 total TOs to Green's 41. So Thompson has more of his TOs from bad handles than Danny does. Danny shoots 48 percent from two, while Thompson shoots 47 percent. Klay's better at layups, (66 percent to Danny's 63 percent), but on shots from 3-10 feet (floaters, runners, hooks), Danny is at 44 percent while Thompson is at 39 percent. So Green's actually better at shots that require adjustment on the drive.

There's not much evidence to show why Thompson is worth twice as much as Green. If Klay can get the max, Danny can probably get somewhere close to it. He won't (thank the stars), but he could.

Thompson is allowed to try much more crap than Danny because Klay can pull it off. Danny is not a guy who takes near as many bad shots, Klay does because he can. Danny takes very traditional 3s. He just has tremendous range and a quick release. Klay, Curry, Kobe, they are all over the place falling away, way more off the dribble... Very different.

As far as Thompson being worth twice Danny...

Hell if I know.
Duncan is worth much more than he gets paid, but Duncan is about finished with his career. The number put to diff. players slalaries gets very distorted by so many mitigating factors. Kobe is worth his money in that he is entertaining, but as far as making a basketball team better? No way he is worth his price.

[Chinook]

It really is his decision making with the ball, and poor precision on passing (surprisingly he's pretty good on the short bounce pass, it's all the others). He also reacts poorly to on the ball pressure in general. The latter is rarely an issue for good ball handlers, and I think that's where a lot of the perception comes from. I think he does lack certain confidence, but that's workable, that's why I rather keep him if possible.

This is the first year where Danny has had to handle the ball this much (though that doesn't show up in his USG%). He's just now adding in the passing element of his inside game. He should get more comfortable with it in him, and he and the bigs should get better at knowing where the best passing angles are. Right now, it's pretty formulaic, the PnR version of parking in the corner for threes. Just as Danny eventually started moving around the arc for his shots, so too will he change up his passes. He may not become particularly accurate (he is pretty much a stretch-four in a two-guard's body, after all), but he'll be better at passing overall.

[Chinook]

Thompson is allowed to try much more crap than Danny because Klay can pull it off. Danny is not a guy who takes near as many bad shots, Klay does because he can.

That doesn't make a ton of sense. Klay clearly isn't good enough to take bad shots if it makes such a big difference on his numbers. Splitter doesn't take the shots that Josh Smith does, but it's not because Smith can pull those shots off.


Danny takes very traditional 3s. He just has tremendous range and a quick release. Klay, Curry, Kobe, they are all over the place falling away, way more off the dribble... Very different.

Don't want to go down the off-dribble rabbit hole again. But Spurs in general don't take off-dribble threes. The only one who does more than Danny is Manu, and we've seen how poorly that's turned out. Also, don't lob Thompson in with Curry and Kobe. Klay still gets assisted on the vast majority of his threes.


As far as Thompson being worth twice Danny...

Hell if I know.
Duncan is worth much more than he gets paid, but Duncan is about finished with his career. The number put to diff. players slalaries gets very distorted by so many mitigating factors. Kobe is worth his money in that he is entertaining, but as far as making a basketball team better? No way he is worth his price.

That's kind of the point, though. Players get deals they don't deserve all the time. Focusing on Danny's flaws doesn't change the fact that flawed players have broken the bank before and will do so again. Look at Josh Smith for an example. Or Tyreke Evans, who can't shoot.

[pgardn]

It really is his decision making with the ball, and poor precision on passing (surprisingly he's pretty good on the short bounce pass, it's all the others). He also reacts poorly to on the ball pressure in general. The latter is rarely an issue for good ball handlers, and I think that's where a lot of the perception comes from. I think he does lack certain confidence, but that's workable, that's why I rather keep him if possible.

Green also lacks speed with the ball dribbling and has very little ability to deceive with quick starts and stops or changes in direction. It's hugely obvious to me, but I will maintain he is better than last year.

This is is not something I take joy in as Danny has come thru foreign ball and the D league to become quite extraordinary for us. I really admire the guy. I want him to be better with the ball, I would love to end the year dead wrong on all that I have mentioned. I just don't think I will. I'm damn glad we have him.

[z0sa]

at this point I put Green in the same pedestal as prime Bowen IMO. not as good a defender but a much much better shooter. at this moment I probably take Green ahead of Bowen, but not by much

Bowen and Green arent even in the same dimension when it comes to the defensive half of the court.. let's see Green purposely match up with ZBo one night and prime Kobe the next without getting Michael Finley'd

[pgardn]

That doesn't make a ton of sense. Klay clearly isn't good enough to take bad shots if it makes such a big difference on his numbers. Splitter doesn't take the shots that Josh Smith does, but it's not because Smith can pull those shots off.



Don't want to go down the off-dribble rabbit hole again. But Spurs in general don't take off-dribble threes. The only one who does more than Danny is Manu, and we've seen how poorly that's turned out. Also, don't lob Thompson in with Curry and Kobe. Klay still gets assisted on the vast majority of his threes.



That's kind of the point, though. Players get deals they don't deserve all the time. Focusing on Danny's flaws doesn't change the fact that flawed players have broken the bank before and will do so again. Look at Josh Smith for an example. Or Tyreke Evans, who can't shoot.

Thompson can go much more effectively to the basket than Danny. There is no comparison imo. So yeah he's gonna get caught taking more bad shots. That's clear to me. I really think of Danny as a SF and Klay a 2. They have very diff. games imo.


Mills and Neal are/was off the dribble 3 guys. Our passing game however is truly better for spot up shooters. Pop clearly emphasizes this.

Danny is not the athlete that these other guys are. They have always had the bad decision, wow factor label imo since you chose to lob them in with Green. They are guys teams think they can fix. They can't shoot because they take horrible shots they can't hit. It's pure folly for Smith to shoot 3s for example but he does. I don't want to see Danny trying what Manu does around the basket either. I see Danny as a guy who has gotten much more from his ability than Smith or Evans.

[Chinook]

Thompson can go much more effectively to the basket than Danny. There is no comparison imo. So yeah he's gonna get caught taking more bad shots. That's clear to me. I really think of Danny as a SF and Klay a 2. They have very diff. games imo.

But that doesn't show up in the stats. Thompson does better at making it all the way to the basket, but Green is better at adjusting to get shots against rim-protectors. The latter takes more skill, in my opinion. I agree Danny is a forward and not a guard, but that doesn't make Klay a better ball-handler than he really is.


Mills and Neal are/was off the dribble 3 guys. Our passing game however is truly better for spot up shooters. Pop clearly emphasizes this.

Mills is still a spot-up shooter. Sure, he did a few dribbles here and there. But it wasn't like he was crossing guys over and getting to his spots like Curry.


Danny is not the athlete that these other guys are. They have always had the bad decision, wow factor label imo since you chose to lob them in with Green. They are guys teams think they can fix. They can't shoot because they take horrible shots they can't hit. It's pure folly for Smith to shoot 3s for example but he does. I don't want to see Danny trying what Manu does around the basket either. I see Danny as a guy who has gotten much more from his ability than Smith or Evans.

I think it's the other way: The shots they take are bad because they are outside their skill-set. Smith sucks at shooting. He just can't do it like Green can. Kobe CAN (could) shoot like Green but took/takes horrible shots.

[Holden_Caulfield]

jimmy butler is gonna get so paidddddddddddddd

[spursparker9]

jimmy butler is gonna get so paidddddddddddddd

Spurs could have drafted Jimmy Butler at 29th. And Jimmy went 30th

[pgardn]

But that doesn't show up in the stats. Thompson does better at making it all the way to the basket, but Green is better at adjusting to get shots against rim-protectors. The latter takes more skill, in my opinion. I agree Danny is a forward and not a guard, but that doesn't make Klay a better ball-handler than he really is.



Mills is still a spot-up shooter. Sure, he did a few dribbles here and there. But it wasn't like he was crossing guys over and getting to his spots like Curry.



I think it's the other way: The shots they take are bad because they are outside their skill-set. Smith sucks at shooting. He just can't do it like Green can. Kobe CAN (could) shoot like Green but took/takes horrible shots.

Klay is a better ball handler than Green and it allows him looks Danny does not get around the rim imo. The way to defend Green is run him off the line. Remember Miami. I think Green has started to adjust to this just like Bonner with his little hook floater.

Mills gets a great rhythm on 3s moving towards the basket off the dribble top of the key area. He looks most comfortable to me with that 3. Again my opinion.

Smith would shoot a much higher % taking shots in the paint. He can get and make shots in that area that Danny will never see just like a Smith will never hit 3s like Danny. This is how I think about it. Maybe it's a flawed way. People usually scream shooter for guys hanging out from distance, not guys that jump over you I guess.

[crellis]

Before reading all the way through this post I was thinking that Green is worth 4 years between $28-$30mil. He knows that he is on a good wicket with the Spurs and he will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract. It is a fair price for both parties - he and the Spurs know that he has been having a really good year and playing well (all of his averages this season are higher that his career numbers) but eventually Parker and Leonard will be back and we'll have a full contingent available. If he keeps performing at this rate when everyone is back then his price may go up, but surely it is a product of who is available personnel.

Time will tell however I think that I am on the money with $28-$30mil spread over 4 years

[Chinook]

Klay is a better ball handler than Green and it allows him looks Danny does not get around the rim imo. The way to defend Green is run him off the line. Remember Miami. I think Green has started to adjust to this just like Bonner with his little hook floater.

The way to defend Klay is to make him put the ball on the floor. Hell, the way to defend ANY shooter is to do that. You don't think defenses wouldn't rather Curry drive? Again, though, Klay isn't a good ball-handler.


Mills gets a great rhythm on 3s moving towards the basket off the dribble top of the key area. He looks most comfortable to me with that 3. Again my opinion.

Danny gets his share of those, too. But Green also has few plays called for him to get a shot in motion and has an extremely high gravity. In order for Danny to get those shots, the Spurs would have to make a concerted effort to give them to him. Thusofar, they aren't willing to do that. Even ignoring Thompson, Atlanta runs those types of plays for Korver, and Kyle isn't any better than Green with the ball in his hands.


Smith would shoot a much higher % taking shots in the paint. He can get and make shots in that area that Danny will never see just like a Smith will never hit 3s like Danny. This is how I think about it. Maybe it's a flawed way. People usually scream shooter for guys hanging out from distance, not guys that jump over you I guess.

Points in the paint aren't really what people think of when they talk about shooting. Smith isn't good an actually shooting the ball. He can slash and finish, but not when he actually has to go into a shooting motion. Branden Wright led the league in FG% last year, but no one thinks he can shoot.

[Chinook]

Before reading all the way through this post I was thinking that Green is worth 4 years between $28-$30mil. He knows that he is on a good wicket with the Spurs and he will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract. It is a fair price for both parties - he and the Spurs know that he has been having a really good year and playing well (all of his averages this season are higher that his career numbers) but eventually Parker and Leonard will be back and we'll have a full contingent available. If he keeps performing at this rate when everyone is back then his price may go up, but surely it is a product of who is available personnel.

Time will tell however I think that I am on the money with $28-$30mil spread over 4 years

But Duncan and Manu will be gone next year, probably. So Danny will get his touches.

[pgardn]

Before reading all the way through this post I was thinking that Green is worth 4 years between $28-$30mil. He knows that he is on a good wicket with the Spurs and he will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract. It is a fair price for both parties - he and the Spurs know that he has been having a really good year and playing well (all of his averages this season are higher that his career numbers) but eventually Parker and Leonard will be back and we'll have a full contingent available. If he keeps performing at this rate when everyone is back then his price may go up, but surely it is a product of who is available personnel.

Time will tell however I think that I am on the money with $28-$30mil spread over 4 years

He is on a good wicket?

So if the little wood things fall off the posts that's bad.
Good is the wood things not falling off.
So if they are on a good wicket is that a really sturdy post, or... what the hell?

And the running back and forth...
And the big rope way out there...

[ajh18]

I don't think max, but I definitely could see it costing us an average of ~$12M over four years to keep Danny.

[crellis]

But Duncan and Manu will be gone next year, probably. So Danny will get his touches.

If you are right and both Tim and Manu aren't wearing silver and black next season then the Spurs will have major cap space to play with and will be looking at a big name free agent (whether or not they are successful in that chase is another story)


He is on a good wicket?

So if the little wood things fall off the posts that's bad.
Good is the wood things not falling off.
So if they are on a good wicket is that a really sturdy post, or... what the hell?

And the running back and forth...
And the big rope way out there...

My apologies, it is summer time in Australia at the moment and I am watching the cricket between Australia and India - http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/engine/match/754741.html

[Chinook]

If you are right and both Tim and Manu aren't wearing silver and black next season then the Spurs will have major cap space to play with and will be looking at a big name free agent (whether or not they are successful in that chase is another story)

Eh, they won't have a ton of cap space under that scenario. It's possible they decide to stay over the cap, even. I think they'll look for a replacement four for Tim, but Danny should be second in line after Leonard at the wing dinner table.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Green > Bowen.

And Bruce will always be my dude.agreed

[pgardn]

The way to defend Klay is to make him put the ball on the floor. Hell, the way to defend ANY shooter is to do that. You don't think defenses wouldn't rather Curry drive? Again, though, Klay isn't a good ball-handler.



Danny gets his share of those, too. But Green also has few plays called for him to get a shot in motion and has an extremely high gravity. In order for Danny to get those shots, the Spurs would have to make a concerted effort to give them to him. Thusofar, they aren't willing to do that. Even ignoring Thompson, Atlanta runs those types of plays for Korver, and Kyle isn't any better than Green with the ball in his hands.



Points in the paint aren't really what people think of when they talk about shooting. Smith isn't good an actually shooting the ball. He can slash and finish, but not when he actually has to go into a shooting motion. Branden Wright led the league in FG% last year, but no one thinks he can shoot.

Personally I don't want Curry or Thompson going past defenders either opening lanes for others when help is required or getting easy layups. That's why they are tough to cover, Curry much more so. Don't want them with uncontested 3's, both are bad.

Green is not gonna get those plays unless he can get to the basket like Manu or Parker. So Yep, we won't see many drives. We would not anyway imo because I have seen Green in the open court, it's not pretty. Even tonight he made an open court layup much tougher than it needed to be, barely went in but he had the guts to try it this year.

I consider guys like Hakeem, Ewing, big guys with deft touch short range, good shooters. Both had great soft baseline short jumpers. But they achieved getting them differently. Many of those shots are paint range they are just on the baseline and the paint does not extend that far. Jabbar was a good shooter. McHale...

I am mixing range with touch perhaps. Duncan has lost a bit of this. I considered him a good shooter when he was quicker pivoting with all his little hooks and bankers and such.

[crellis]

Eh, they won't have a ton of cap space under that scenario. It's possible they decide to stay over the cap, even. I think they'll look for a replacement four for Tim, but Danny should be second in line after Leonard at the wing dinner table.

Agree with all of your points - i think that the spurs will be hunting for a 4 to replace Duncan and that the Spurs will stay over the cap once they sign Leonard to a max extension and resign Green. I reckon that they'll do it that order to maximise cap space for external free agents (hence Leonard willing to wait until the upcoming off season to sign his deal).

[pgardn]

My apologies, it is summer time in Australia at the moment and I am watching the cricket between Australia and India - http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/engine/match/754741.html

Well I hope you have lots of beverages.
Set up a campfire and roast some marshmallows.

I hope the pitch is satisfactory for your bowlers.
I hope no one gets hit. Wear a cage.

damn... someone almost yorked themselves..

[trollt]

Bowen and Green arent even in the same dimension when it comes to the defensive half of the court.. let's see Green purposely match up with ZBo one night and prime Kobe the next without getting Michael Finley'd
Damn time distorts memory thank you. Bowen fallacies by good posters leave bruce alone! :cry
http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_g_bowennowitzki_268.jpg
- Bowen guarded MVP Dirk every second of every game. :cry but Prime(ish) Tim :cry
- Bowen led the league in 3P% one season. :cry doesn't know how to slide to the open spot :cry
- Bowen won (defacto) Finals with defense multiple times. Game 6 Nash plays like shit inside Bowen's iron maiden, Spurs clinch. Game 7 block on Billups stops Piston's final offensive run, Spurs clinch. :cry But '05 Manu :cry
- Lebron's worst playoffs ever was against Bruce. :cry but that year Parker was FMVP::cry
- Like 38 MPG consistently heaviest minutes on team. (was our only three for his entire time here). Cal Ripken Lite he never missed a second for injury except when he nutpunched fatty or turtle I can't remember which one. :cry

[Mal]

How much is max for him ? 8 digits ? Nah, he wont get that much. 34/4 or 42/5 is reasonable price to pay.

[timmy2003]

Actually that dude was ballin before his injury in 2013. Speaking of undeserving, let's talk Hayward (insert sick emoji)

Agree. Hayward is ridiculously overpaid

[spurspokesman]

3 yrs 27 or 4 years 36

[spurspokesman]

A guard who can't create his own shot or dribble well doesn't get max money. But DG is an epic shooter with ice cold veins and he will secure his financial future and has earned every dime coming his way.

[z0sa]

Damn time distorts memory thank you. Bowen fallacies by good posters leave bruce alone! :cry
http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_g_bowennowitzki_268.jpg
- Bowen guarded MVP Dirk every second of every game. :cry but Prime(ish) Tim :cry
- Bowen led the league in 3P% one season. :cry doesn't know how to slide to the open spot :cry
- Bowen won (defacto) Finals with defense multiple times. Game 6 Nash plays like shit inside Bowen's iron maiden, Spurs clinch. Game 7 block on Billups stops Piston's final offensive run, Spurs clinch. :cry But '05 Manu :cry
- Lebron's worst playoffs ever was against Bruce. :cry but that year Parker was FMVP::cry
- Like 38 MPG consistently heaviest minutes on team. (was our only three for his entire time here). Cal Ripken Lite he never missed a second for injury except when he nutpunched fatty or turtle I can't remember which one. :cry

:tu

Dude played 500 straight games and shut down superstar after superstar... guarded every position... instilled legendary amounts of hate in opposing players and fans... Green is a beast but he cant and never will be another Bruce.

Kawhi has a shot, but he will always be "held back" by his offensive expenditures of energy. Bruce spent about 105 of his 110% of energy on D every night.

[rmt]

Can Spurs afford both Leonard and Green if Duncan decides to play another year (which he seems quite capable of doing at a high level)? I even think Manu can play another year - still looks good in occasional games. They'd probably have to take MLE/LLE type money to keep Leonard and Green though.

[Chinook]

:tu

Dude played 500 straight games and shut down superstar after superstar... guarded every position... instilled legendary amounts of hate in opposing players and fans... Green is a beast but he cant and never will be another Bruce.

Kawhi has a shot, but he will always be "held back" by his offensive expenditures of energy. Bruce spent about 105 of his 110% of energy on D every night.

The point is that Bowen's "locking down" is what Green and Leonard do on their off nights. It's crazy how the standard has changed. Danny and Kawhi didn't just contain Durant and Westbrook; they straight owned them. Splitter didn't hold Dirk to his average; he took him out of the series. Bruce gets credit for versatility, but his effectiveness against individual players is overrated, in my opinion.

[hater]

Nobody said Green is a better defender than Bowen. But as overall basketball player in today's style of game Green > Bowen. Plain and simple.

[DMC]

Green wouldn't be good on most other squads. He was being cut in Cleveland. Spurs can take another team's trash and make starters of them. It's proven. Hell, they took a nobody like Gary Neal and made the league covet him.

[Cklbmk]

Spurs could have drafted Jimmy Butler at 29th. And Jimmy went 30th


I was advocating this at the time. I was super :(

[mudyez]

He won't get 10 figures from the Spurs.

True!

[exstatic]

Spurs could have drafted Jimmy Butler at 29th. And Jimmy went 30th


I was advocating this at the time. I was super :(

:lol. There was NO WAY that SA was drafting Butler after picking Kawhi at 15 in the same draft.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

:lolDid some dumbass just say bowen could guard zbo?

[Cklbmk]

:lol. There was NO WAY that SA was drafting Butler after picking Kawhi at 15 in the same draft.


We didn't have a backup SF or a SF. Would have been fine.

[Chinook]

We didn't have a backup SF or a SF. Would have been fine.

Jefferson and Anderson were on that team. Drafting another wing would have mafe no sense.

[Chinook]

:lolDid some dumbass just say bowen could guard zbo?

Yep. Bruce wouldn't have been any better on Randolph than Green did.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdpNT7h8Al0&app=desktop

[Ice009]

I was advocating this at the time. I was super :(

So you knew about Jimmy Butler beforehand, you thought he'd be good? What year was he drafted?

[Richie]

:lol. There was NO WAY that SA was drafting Butler after picking Kawhi at 15 in the same draft.


Jefferson and Anderson were on that team. Drafting another wing would have mafe no sense.

I don't think the roster had anything to do with it. The Spurs certainly took Joseph because they thought he was the best player at that point. Green had only played 4 legit games (10+ min) for the Spurs at that point and those were garbage games at the end of the season when we were resting for the playoffs.

That summer we kept Green (he was fully guaranteed) and he played every game the next season, starting in 38. Clearly the front office wasn't committed to any of the wings considering Jefferson and Anderson were gone by the next year and Neal the year after

[Chinook]

I don't think the roster had anything to do with it. The Spurs certainly took Joseph because they thought he was the best player at that point. Green had only played 4 legit games (10+ min) for the Spurs at that point and those were garbage games at the end of the season when we were resting for the playoffs.

BPA is something a lot of people misinterpret. It does NOT mean best player regardless of position. It means best player taking into account talent, fit, upside, intangibles, etc. That Cory was a PG made a huge difference to his BPA rating. And that the team had just used two decently high picks on wings and had two more on large deals certainly affected Butler's and Parson's BPA rating.


That summer we kept Green (he was fully guaranteed) and he played every game the next season, starting in 38. Clearly the front office wasn't committed to any of the wings considering Jefferson and Anderson were gone by the next year and Neal the year after

Danny wasn't guaranteed at all. Most people assumed he was camp fodder or hopefully trade filler for a legit big. He and Kawhi pushed Anderson and Jefferson out of the SL and eventually off the team, but it's retrospective to say that the Spurs were keen to use a third straight first-rounder on a wing in 2012 just because they ended up upgrading eventually.

[Richie]

BPA is something a lot of people misinterpret. It does NOT mean best player regardless of position. It means best player taking into account talent, fit, upside, intangibles, etc. That Cory was a PG made a huge difference to his BPA rating. And that the team had just used two decently high picks on wings and had two more on large deals certainly affected Butler's and Parson's BPA rating.

If by fit you mean their personality I agree, the Spurs would avoid a player who wouldn't fit in to our culture, but I think the whole concept of 'best player available' is to put very little to no value in to what position the current team needs. Popovich never had any expectation of Joseph to play any kind of significant minutes, why would immediate team needs come in to it?

I think the front office thought Joseph would be the best player right now out of all those available. They were wrong, clearly Butler and Parsons are better players than Joseph right now, but that's just the nature of the draft. If they thought Butler was a better prospect I'm certain they would have taken him.


Danny wasn't guaranteed at all. Most people assumed he was camp fodder or hopefully trade filler for a legit big. He and Kawhi pushed Anderson and Jefferson out of the SL and eventually off the team, but it's retrospective to say that the Spurs were keen to use a third straight first-rounder on a wing in 2012 just because they ended up upgrading eventually.

Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say he was fully guaranteed. I agree with you, my point is exactly that the Spurs weren't sold on the wings and open to trading/waiving them as they did. As that was certainly the case, there's no reason they would refrain from drafting a better player because of their presence.

[z0sa]

:lolDid some dumbass just say bowen could guard zbo?

Uh, he didnt just guard Zbo, he shut him the fuck down.

[z0sa]

But as overall basketball player in today's style of game Green > Bowen. Plain and simple.

I wouldnt. Im surprised anyone with championship aspirations would. Bowen could have done anything Green's done at 35 years of age. Apparently Im in the minority though. Makes me feel old

[z0sa]

The point is that Bowen's "locking down" is what Green and Leonard do on their off nights. It's crazy how the standard has changed. Danny and Kawhi didn't just contain Durant and Westbrook; they straight owned them. Splitter didn't hold Dirk to his average; he took him out of the series. Bruce gets credit for versatility, but his effectiveness against individual players is overrated, in my opinion.

? Again Green is not as effective of a player as bowen and never will be... he just isnt dirty enough. Conflating the two isnt necessary, theyre different players and Green is certainly a better offensive player. Trying to act like his offnight is just as good as Bruce's regular night is just being silly thougb. Bowen got into better players' heads FAR more than a player like Green. the jury is still out on Kawhi. Kawhi certainly has the physical ability. But again, the tradeoff for offensive versatility is stamina on defense and injury concerns. At his age he probably doesnt have anything to worry about besides getting to Bruce's level of consistency.

[hater]

I wouldnt. Im surprised anyone with championship aspirations would. Bowen could have done anything Green's done at 35 years of age. Apparently Im in the minority though. Makes me feel old

Bowen could have broke the finals 3pt record?

[Chinook]

If by fit you mean their personality I agree, the Spurs would avoid a player who wouldn't fit in to our culture, but I think the whole concept of 'best player available' is to put very little to no value in to what position the current team needs. Popovich never had any expectation of Joseph to play any kind of significant minutes, why would immediate team needs come in to it?.

And that's why I said the concept is misunderstood. BPA takes position into account. It's a "who do we think will be the best player for us" type of thing. No way the Spurs draft five centers in a row with high picks, for example, overall talent be damned. Obviously, it's different with draft-and-stashes, though, since you don't know if or when those guys will be able to come over.


I think the front office thought Joseph would be the best player right now out of all those available. They were wrong, clearly Butler and Parsons are better players than Joseph right now, but that's just the nature of the draft. If they thought Butler was a better prospect I'm certain they would have taken him.

I don't think there's any way the Spurs would have drafted Butler unless someone really wanted Jefferson from them in a trade. They really liked Anderson and they obviously loved Leonard. They would have been drafting Butler assuming he would be the sixth wing for a least three years. Don't think I've ever seen them have that kind of plan for the first-rounder.


Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say he was fully guaranteed. I agree with you, my point is exactly that the Spurs weren't sold on the wings and open to trading/waiving them as they did. As that was certainly the case, there's no reason they would refrain from drafting a better player because of their presence.

That's just repeating what you said before. My point is that the Spurs weren't sold on Green. He was fully NON-GUARANTEED and made the roster in camp. I also think it's fallacious to think the Spurs were intending to move on from Anderson, Jefferson and Neal simply because they ended up doing so. That's hindsight. Neal was obviously an up-and-comer back then, especially after he hit that shot in Memphis. Anderson had a promising rookie season and even got the starting nod that October. Manu was obviously Manu, and Jefferson was the team's minutes leader and workhorse (as badly as he sucked and as short of a time as he was in SA, Green and Leonard are just now overtaking him in the as-Spurs milestones). And then Kawhi, That was the reality back then, and there was simply no room for Butler and a lot or room for a PG project.

[Chinook]

? Again Green is not as effective of a player as bowen and never will be... he just isnt dirty enough. Conflating the two isnt necessary, theyre different players and Green is certainly a better offensive player. Trying to act like his offnight is just as good as Bruce's regular night is just being silly thougb. Bowen got into better players' heads FAR more than a player like Green. the jury is still out on Kawhi. Kawhi certainly has the physical ability. But again, the tradeoff for offensive versatility is stamina on defense and injury concerns. At his age he probably doesnt have anything to worry about besides getting to Bruce's level of consistency.

None of that matters. That's the point of what I was saying. Bowen may have gotten into players' heads, he may have made them work for everything they got, but he still didn't really stop them from scoring. That's the whole point of one-on-one defense. Back in Bruce's time, people just assume that you couldn't really stop great players from scoring a lot, but in today's era, that's no longer true. Bowen's legendary defensive series still don't compare with what Green and Leonard did against the Thunder last year, statistically.

I'll take being civil and simply not allowing your man to score over being hard-nosed and allowing players to reach their averages any day. Duncan wasn't into all that dirty stuff that Bowen or KG did, but that didn't stop him from being a superior defender to them.

[z0sa]

Bowen could have broke the finals 3pt record?

:lol that had as much to do with Danny Green hitting shots as it had to do with Spoelstra being about 5 games slow adjusting.

[z0sa]

None of that matters. That's the point of what I was saying. Bowen may have gotten into players' heads, he may have made them work for everything they got, but he still didn't really stop them from scoring.

... what? That's bullshit.
Bowen's legendary defensive series still don't compare with what Green and Leonard did against the Thunder last year, statistically.

Sample size and different situations. Why are you comparing 2 elite defenders' accomplishments made together with one player's accomplishments made alone, anyway? Seems like a terribly flawed argument if you ask me. If Bowen had Kawhi at his side, you dknt think that would have made his life easier than say, Michael Finley? And again, lets see Pop even TRY Green on Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole 7 game series. Green's not in the same categoryPERIOD

[ElNono]

Bruce was so good that even TD's defense took a nosedive when he was gone. Only to magically 'rejuvenate' when Kiwi showed up. I think Green is the better 3pt shooter and has better physical tools (longer arms, reach) than Bruce, but Bowen was the more savvy defender, he did it for much longer, and was an integral part of the Spurs being a defensive powerhouse for many years. As a matter of fact, Pop himself mentioned that the team went more offense-oriented at some point because he thought he couldn't find another player that defended like Bruce did night in and night out.

[hater]

:lol that had as much to do with Danny Green hitting shots as it had to do with Spoelstra being about 5 games slow adjusting.

so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat. :lol

ppl forget Bowen was only useful from the corner 3. Green can shoot from pretty much from any 3pt region. Not to mention Green can shoot 3s off the dribble. Bowen possibly never scored that way.

[Chinook]

... what? That's bullshit.

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass. You can make all the qualitative arguments you want. But there's not a ton of quantitative debate here.


Sample size and different situations. Why are you comparing 2 elite defenders' accomplishments made together with one player's accomplishments made alone, anyway? Seems like a terribly flawed argument if you ask me. If Bowen had Kawhi at his side, you dknt think that would have made his life easier than say, Michael Finley? And again, lets see Pop even TRY Green on Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole 7 game series. Green's not in the same categoryPERIOD

A lot wrong with this. First, a six-game series is large enough sample, especially compared to the samples people use for Bowen. Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy. Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good. If anything, Leonard's D for part of the WCF was the weak link. Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

[timmy2003]

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass. You can make all the qualitative arguments you want. But there's not a ton of quantitative debate here.



A lot wrong with this. First, a six-game series is large enough sample, especially compared to the samples people use for Bowen. Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy. Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good. If anything, Leonard's D for part of the WCF was the weak link. Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

Bowen's defense on prime Dirk in that 2006 series was pretty impressive, the lack of rebounding killed us.

I agree that Green is a better overall player than Bowen was, but Green's one on one D is at best near prime Bowen's level

[hitmantb]

Each player only has one stamina bar.

I will say Bruce was better than Green/Kwahi on defense, but his level of consistency was really because he could afford to use all of his stamina on defense. On offense he pretty much just camped for corner 3's. Green's overall value is way higher when each of his 3 point attempts averages more points than prime Shaq's field goal attempts. The entire offense changes when you have someone moving without the ball like he does and with a devastating fast release.

Two-way players are extremely rare, not because of talent, also because of stamina. Even LeBron can not defend like Bruce night in and night out, not because he can't, but because he has to save stamina for offense.

[Chinook]

Bowen's defense on prime Dirk in that 2006 series was pretty impressive, the lack of rebounding killed us.

Dirk scored 27 ppg on 53 percent shooting. Compare that to the 20 on 38 he got against Jackson the next year. I don't care of Bruce was hard nosed and gave a hell of an effort. He didn't actually do much to stop Dirk.


I agree that Green is a better overall player than Bowen was, but Green's one on one D is at best near prime Bowen's level

I can live with that, though the Spurs never got to have Prime Bowen. You want to take Bowen's defense over Green's qualitatively? Fine by me. I just think people are too nostalgic.

[z0sa]

Look at the numbers bro and stop talking out of your ass.

To be honest, i watched nust about every game BB played in silver and black, and I pretty much disregard your opinion outright. I dont care what the numbers say or whether you think Im "talking out of my ass."


A lot wrong with this.

A lot wrong with you using 2 guys playing together on defense compared with one guy? Lol yeah, its kinda strange.


First, a six-game series is large enough sample,

No it is certainly not, Bruce won three titles and made countless gutty plays on D throughout each run.


Second, Green and Leonard guarded two players during that series (actually, Green guard pretty much everyone on OKC at some point), so it's not like they were tag-teaming a guy.

You dont think they helped eachother on D? Lol


Third, Leonard and Green work well together, but that's because their both good.

And this allows you to compare their contributions simultaneously with Bruces how? You keep saying theres "alot wrong with this" but really, the comparison youre making is apples to oranges. For example you say if anything KLs d was the weak link, but then again that just sounds dumb when you think about who he was guarding. Good players are going to score, the best you can do is get in their head so they miss when it counts. Any vet will tell you this.


Finally, it's not a good thing Pop put Bowen on Dirk. Bruce didn't even faze him. Stephen Jackson did a better job than Bowen did. However, Danny defends bigs very well on switches. It was he who stopped Dirk on the final possession of the season-opener.

LOL, if only you were around in 2006, you might have known a lot of us HATED BB on Dirk... not for the reasons you assert, though.

[hater]

tbh we woulda won all those ships with Green instead of Bowen. shit we probly woulda won 04 vs the Lakers with Green. Love Bowen but this season's Green is playing at near allstar level tbqh

[ElNono]

I would argue people have extremely short memory, tbh... Bowen took on prime Kobe, prime TMac, prime Ray Allen... damn the SG position used to be stacked back then... Prime Dirk was always a bad matchup for the Spurs... Pop used to even put Parker on him here or there, just trying to give him a different look.

[z0sa]

so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat. :lol

If he was left open as much as Green was ... why is that so hard to believe? Its not like DG didnt hit plenty of 3s from the corners. The point is that youre way overcrediting Green and way undercrediting Spoelstras retardation and the best system in basketball. Even if BB couldnt break the all time record, he still hit threes at one of the highest clips on the team during multiple title runs.

[hater]

so give +8ppg to those superstars, Green will still make that up with his superior offense IMO

[hater]

[QUOTE=hater;7754790]so that's a yes? ok, Bowen would have broke the 3pt Finals record vs. the heat. :lol[quote]

If he was left open as much as Green was ... why is that so hard to believe? Its not like DG didnt hit plenty of 3s from the corners. The point is that youre way overcrediting Green and way undercrediting Spoelstras retardation and the best system in basketball.

as I said, Bowen could only hit corner 3s 90% of his shots from the left corner 3. you can't seriously believe a player will break the 3pt record just with that shot :rolleyes

plus you can't seriously say a prime Duncan, Parker and Manu didn't give their shooters open looks :rolleyes

[ohmwrecker]

Bowen was a better defender than Green, but that's it.

[z0sa]

Like the big 3 didnt play a huge part in getting DG his open looks the last 2 years, cmon bro, you just hatin now Hater :lol

[hater]

Like the big 3 didnt play a huge part in getting DG his open looks the last 2 years, cmon bro, you just hatin now Hater :lol

disagree. Can you imagine Green playing next to prime Evita, Duncan and MVParker???? :wow

[in2deep]

disagree. Can you imagine Green playing next to prime Evita, Duncan and MVParker???? :wow

wtf :lol

[z0sa]

I would argue people have extremely short memory, tbh... Bowen took on prime Kobe, prime TMac, prime Ray Allen... damn the SG position used to be stacked back then... Prime Dirk was always a bad matchup for the Spurs... Pop used to even put Parker on him here or there, just trying to give him a different look.

Yeah, Dirk has always been a tough MU for most teams.. I feel like Antonio McDyess and Splitter played him the best out of any Spur since 2003...

[z0sa]

disagree. Can you imagine Green playing next to prime Evita, Duncan and MVParker???? :wow

in 2012, Green was desperately needed but couldnt hit a shot under pressure to save his life ... Im proud of how far hes come and its a testament to his mental strength but cmon dude.. hes lucky to have played with the Spurs who are so unselfish and team oriented on both sides of the floor. Danny can barely dribble the basketball up the court...

[hater]

Danny can barely dribble the basketball up the court...

and Bowen could?

as I said, this Danny is shooting at historical levels. Paired with the prime big 3 would be a sight to see. IMO he will eventually have to come back down to earth(I think)

[z0sa]

and Bowen could?

as I said, this Danny is shooting at historical levels. Paired with the prime big 3 would be a sight to see. IMO he will eventually have to come back down to earth(I think)

youre the one pimping Dannys offensive skills

[hater]

youre the one pimping Dannys offensive skills

Never pimped his ball handling skills. That is why I call him 1 trick pony. But he is playing as the greatest 1 trick pony in league history.

[ohmwrecker]

I don't see how anyone could argue that Bowen was a better or equal offensive player to Green. That's absurd.

[Chinook]

To be honest, i watched nust about every game BB played in silver and black, and I pretty much disregard your opinion outright. I dont care what the numbers say or whether you think Im "talking out of my ass."

Lol. You can't even remember the 2013 Finals correctly and yet I'm supposed to take your take on 2003-2007 seriously.


A lot wrong with you using 2 guys playing together on defense compared with one guy? Lol yeah, its kinda strange.

You're talking about one-one-one D. LnL didn't tag-team one guy. They took out multiple stars at the same time. It wasn't like they were working together for the most part. They are both just elite at what they do.


No it is certainly not, Bruce won three titles and made countless gutty plays on D throughout each run.

Yes, it is. We're talking about individual D against the best scorers here. Six games was over 100 possessions, which is a MUCH bigger sample than a "gutty play".


You dont think they helped eachother on D? Lol

Not in the way you're implying. They checked their own guys Splitter helped LnL with Duncan as the anchor. Prime Tim helped Bowen. The biggest help LnL give each other is switching screens.


And this allows you to compare their contributions simultaneously with Bruces how? You keep saying theres "alot wrong with this" but really, the comparison youre making is apples to oranges. For example you say if anything KLs d was the weak link, but then again that just sounds dumb when you think about who he was guarding. Good players are going to score, the best you can do is get in their head so they miss when it counts. Any vet will tell you this.

Most of this paragraph is bad, but the bolded part is what I'm talking about. In Bowen's day, that type of mentality was a given if Dirk or Nash scored a bunch of points on efficient shooting, that was just what happened. At least they had to work for it. It doesn't work like that anymore. LnL hold their guys down. A stat line that would get Bowen praise is simply a day's work now.


LOL, if only you were around in 2006, you might have known a lot of us HATED BB on Dirk... not for the reasons you assert, though

Couldn't care less what you guys were thinking. Bowen didn't defend Dirk well. The very next year should have shown you how much better he could be checked.

[timmy2003]

Couldn't care less what you guys were thinking. Bowen didn't defend Dirk well. The very next year should have shown you how much better he could be checked.

You are comparing two very different series. Warriors were able to overwhelm Dallas with speed and athleticism and Dallas were pretty stagnent on the offensve end.

[Cklbmk]

So you knew about Jimmy Butler beforehand, you thought he'd be good? What year was he drafted?

Instead of crying look through my old posts here and on realgm. kthx

[Chinook]

You are comparing two very different series. Warriors were able to overwhelm Dallas with speed and athleticism and Dallas were pretty stagnent on the offensve end.

There's always an excuse. The question I have is how much better did Dirk have to do for people to have not thought Bowen did a good job? 30 and 15?

[look_at_g_shred]

I don't see how anyone could argue that Bowen was a better or equal offensive player to Green. That's absurd.
Green is more athletic than Bowen ever was. Green is able to do a lot more in that aspect. Bowen wouldn't come out of nowhere and block a ball away from a player committing a 3 point play. I've seen green in the little time he's been here steal more balls than I ever saw Bruce did. Not to mention you almost always see danny blocking a ball of the backboard in transition.

[Cklbmk]

Jefferson and Anderson were on that team. Drafting another wing would have mafe no sense.

Fair on Jefferson they wernt expecting to dump him so quickly probably. I wasn't expecting us to get Kawhi tbh

[Chinook]

Green is more athletic than Bowen ever was. Green is able to do a lot more in that aspect.

Bowen was a dunk champion don't confuse Spurs Bowen with Prime Bowen.

[look_at_g_shred]

Bowen was a dunk champion don't confuse Spurs Bowen with Prime Bowen.Huh? I meant to put Spurs bruce. Re read post

[ElNono]

Bowen was a dunk champion don't confuse Spurs Bowen with Prime Bowen.

uh? You're thinking of Brent Barry?

[look_at_g_shred]

Yea ^

[ElNono]

"prime" Bowen was 2003-2008... That's what landed him 5 times in NBA All defense 1st team...

[Chinook]

uh? You're thinking of Brent Barry?

Nah, I'm talking about Bowen the scrub in Europe.

[Chinook]

Huh? I meant to put Spurs bruce. Re read post

I mean that Bowen was a hell of an athlete in his physical prime. He was old with the Spurs. So no, Green isn't more athletic than Bowen ever was.

[ElNono]

Nah, I'm talking about Bowen the scrub in Europe.

He was undrafted, clearly not supremely athletic or very good at all... It's a testament to his work ethic he was able to succeed despite all that...

[ElNono]

I mean that Bowen was a hell of an athlete in his physical prime. He was old with the Spurs. So no, Green isn't more athletic than Bowen ever was.

Not compared to NBA standards he was not.

[Chinook]

He was undrafted, clearly not supremely athletic or very good at all... It's a testament to his work ethic he was able to succeed despite all that...

C'mon Nono.

[ElNono]

C'mon Nono.

C'mon Chinook. You don't need to artificially prop up Bowen, a lot of us watched him play years on end. I coincidentally posted the same observation a few posts ago, Danny has more physical tools than Bruce, that shouldn't be taken as a knock on Danny...

[ElNono]

Plus we have all of Bruce's seasons to dissect while Danny is still playing, and, seemingly, still improving. That's why I think some of these comparisons are not always fair. Right now, Danny is clearly the better 3 point shooter. I would still give the nod to Bruce defensively, but there are games yet to be played on Danny's career.

[ohmwrecker]

Nono is balls on. Bowen's greatest asset was his work ethic. His greatest accomplishment was to succeed despite his athletic/bball skill shortcomings.

[ohmwrecker]

He is still succeeding as a broadcaster besides not being naturally good at it. :lol

[ElNono]

He is still succeeding as a broadcaster besides not being naturally good at it. :lol

IIRC, he has a communications degree... He's certainly qualified for the job. I don't particularly like him as a broadcaster though.

[Chinook]

C'mon Chinook. You don't need to artificially prop up Bowen, a lot of us watched him play years on end. I coincidentally posted the same observation a few posts ago, Danny has more physical tools than Bruce, that shouldn't be taken as a knock on Danny...

No, seriously, you've been around long enough to have seen people periodically post the vids of Bruce when he was young. It isn't a revelation that Bruce could sky when he was a scrub.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=-vSiVOrJL4ukgwSj7YOIDw&url=http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport&ved=0CB8QtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEsEUEOtiF7O4u0GmMKoUtEDyMLLg&sig2=N2_GEzEIGEz_2W-RZI-szw

He was OLD with the Spurs. But he was not a poor athlete his whole life.

[dabom]

Danny getting the max? hahahaah I'm definitely going to bump this shit when he gets 8 mil a year deal and chifagot gets all butt hurt by pop and the fo. :lol

[timmy2003]

There's always an excuse. The question I have is how much better did Dirk have to do for people to have not thought Bowen did a good job? 30 and 15?
Don't focus too much on statistics which is an intricate subject.
How about Bowen got voted to all defensive team 8 times?

[Chinook]

Danny getting the max? hahahaah I'm definitely going to bump this shit when he gets 8 mil a year deal and chifagot gets all butt hurt by pop and the fo. :lol

Lol. I'd much rather all the Spurs get small deals so the team could add talent. If Danny signs a $30M/5 deal, I'd be elated.

[dabom]

Statistics are biased by the maker. If you don't understand that, you're a fucking idiot.
This is the same guy who thinks kawhi did nothing special to stop westbrook in game 5 of the semis. :lmao

[Chinook]

Don't focus too much on statistics which is an intricate subject.
How about Bowen got voted to all defensive team 8 times?

Kobe.

[dabom]

Lol. I'd much rather all the Spurs get small deals so the team could add talent. If Danny signs a $30M/5 deal, I'd be elated.

Then shut up fagot.

[Chinook]

Statistics are biased by the maker. If you don't understand that, you're a fucking idiot.
This is the same guy who thinks kawhi did nothing special to stop westbrook in game 5 of the semis. :lmao

Same dude who didn't watch the game commenting again, I see. Anyway, how are the stats biased? I'm not asking how it's possible,. I mean specifically how are the numbers skewed.

[Chinook]

Then shut up fagot.

Shut up about what?

[dabom]

Same dude who didn't watch the game commenting again, I see. Anyway, how are the stats biased? I'm not asking how it's possible,. I mean specifically how are the numbers skewed.

If you're not bright enough to have an understanding, I ain't going to teach you. :lol

[ElNono]

No, seriously, you've been around long enough to have seen people periodically post the vids of Bruce when he was young. It isn't a revelation that Bruce could sky when he was a scrub.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=-vSiVOrJL4ukgwSj7YOIDw&url=http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport&ved=0CB8QtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEsEUEOtiF7O4u0GmMKoUtEDyMLLg&sig2=N2_GEzEIGEz_2W-RZI-szw

He was OLD with the Spurs. But he was not a poor athlete his whole life.

He was never anything special. You can find videos of Gino wrecking it in Italy, and he was fairly athletic compared to your average Euro guy, but compared to NBA talent (Kobe, Wade, TMac, etc) he was merely decent.

Bruce best years in the NBA were actually his Spurs years. His top asset was his unmatched footwork and mental fortitude. IIRC, a year before joining the Spurs he was cut by the Bulls (or Sixers, can't remember exactly ATM)

[timmy2003]

how are the stats biased? I'm not asking how it's possible,. I mean specifically how are the numbers skewed.
Basketball is a team sport. Singling out individual performance/stats is bound to induce bias.

[Chinook]

He was never anything special. You can find videos of Gino wrecking it in Italy, and he was fairly athletic compared to your average Euro guy, but compared to NBA talent (Kobe, Wade, TMac, etc) he was merely decent.


Don't backtrack. There aren't vids of Danny dunking from the FT line out there. Bowen wasn't spring-loaded or anything, but he was more athletic than Green. Not when he was with the Spurs, but that's not what G said, either.

[dabom]

I we used per, bowen should never be playing basketball. :lol

[ElNono]

Stats are important and there's no doubt Danny ranks well because he's extremely good. He wasn't this good always, just like Bruce wasn't very good early in his career. There's a progression and I hope the Spurs recognize that Danny is very good for our system and do what they can to keep him.

[Chinook]

Basketball is a team sport. Singling out individual performance/stats is bound to induce bias.

No. Stats are stats. They can be misinterpreted, but that doesn't make thw actual numbers slanted.

[Chinook]

If you're not bright enough to have an understanding, I ain't going to teach you. :lol

Lol with that response. You're the one who made the claim. Back it up, bud.

[ElNono]

Don't backtrack. There aren't vids of Danny dunking from the FT line out there. Bowen wasn't spring-loaded or anything, but he was more athletic than Green. Not when he was with the Spurs, but that's not what G said, either.

Do you doubt Danny could dunk from the FT line of he really tried it? I think he could, personally I wouldn't need a video if somebody told me that. He has mad reach. Bowen never had that. If Bowen did, he probably would've been drafted.

[Chinook]

Do you doubt Danny could dunk from the FT line of he really tried it? I think he could, personally I wouldn't need a video if somebody told me that. He has mad reach. Bowen never had that. If Bowen did, he probably would've been drafted.

Jamychal Green.

[ElNono]

Jamychal Green.

What about him?

[dabom]

Lol with that response. You're the one who made the claim. Back it up, bud.

Lets look at winshares. If I weight the rebounds much higher, all the bigs get higher winshares, If I weight points much higher, all the scorers like kobe get higher winshares.
There is a balance when someone makes these stats. The creator is pretty much estimating and guessing when someone makes a stat like this.
It is up to the people to use it as a barometer but not to be an end to all stats.
And any stat you use or methology you come up with is pretty much biased.

[Chinook]

What about him?

He's plenty athletic and didn't get drafted.

[ElNono]

He's plenty athletic and didn't get drafted.

He's probably not a very good basketball player. Bruce wasn't either until he found his niche with the Spurs.

[Chinook]

Lets look at winshares. If I weight the rebounds much higher, all the bigs get higher winshares, If I weight points much higher, all the scorers like kobe get higher winshares.
There is a balance when someone makes these stats. The creator is pretty much estimating and guessing when someone makes a stat like this.
It is up to the people to use it as a barometer but not to be an end to all stats.
And any stat you use or methology you come up with is pretty much biased.

Those are advanced metrics. A stat like PPP isn't based on a formula. It's like saying that points are a biased stat.

You're right on win-shares, as it tends to overrate rebounding. However, I asked you to explain how the stats are biased, not how they could possibly be. I doubt you knew why win-shares are biased and why I tend to ignore them when not comparing bigs.

[Chinook]

He's probably not a very good basketball player. Bruce wasn't either until he found his niche with the Spurs.

True. No one's arguing that. But he was a better athlete in his young than Danny is.

[dabom]

Those are advanced metrics. A stat like PPP isn't based on a formula. It's like saying that points are a biased stat.

You're right on win-shares, as it tends to overrate rebounding. However, I asked you to explain how the stats are biased, not how they could possibly be. I doubt you knew why win-shares are biased and why I tend to ignore them when not comparing bigs.

Tell me what you use to evaluate a player and I'll tell you why it's trash.

[Chinook]

Tell me what you use to evaluate a player and I'll tell you why it's trash.

Wins/losses.

[ElNono]

True. No one's arguing that. But he was a better athlete in his young than Danny is.

Based on what? Ran faster, jumped higher? I think Bruce never had the long arms Danny has. For the kind of work they do on the defensive end, I think that's a pretty important difference. And I'm glad Danny know how to use them.

[dabom]

Wins/losses.

You use win/losses to evaluate a player?
Just win/loses? Because you also need to take into account hundred other factors(team avg record, injury to opposing teams/actual team, back to backs, amount of games played in certain periods)
before you can truly evaluate a player. Any method you take from there will be biased.

[Chinook]

Based on what? Ran faster, jumped higher? I think Bruce never had the long arms Danny has. For the kind of work they do on the defensive end, I think that's a pretty important difference. And I'm glad Danny know how to use them.

Why do you keep acting like Bruce has short arms? From what I'm reading, his wingspan is like seven feet, which would be longer than Danny's 6-11.

[Chinook]

You use win/losses to evaluate a player?
Just win/loses? Because you also need to take into account hundred other factors(team avg record, injury to opposing teams/actual team, back to backs, amount of games played in certain periods)
before you can truly evaluate a player. Any method you take from there will be biased.

Points in the paint allowed?

[dabom]

Points in the paint allowed?

I'm not going to go through all the stats. :lol

[ElNono]

Why do you keep acting like Bruce has short arms? From what I'm reading, his wingspan is like seven feet, which wpuldw be longer than Danny's 6-11.

I can't find Bruce measurements on wingspan (I tried), other than 'great wingspan' comments. Maybe it's the lasting image of Bruce in his last few years, but he definitely did not have the hops or reach Danny has.

[Chinook]

I'm not going to go through all the stats. :lol

Why not? Your whole thing is gonna just be "it's complicated"? Or do you assume I used one thing when looking at players? This whole line of reasoning is flawed on your part. You don't use stats to evaluate players. You use them to catalog certain events. Like it's a fact that the Spurs have had a greater point differential when Bonner is on the floor. There's no bias there. The bias can only come from the interpreter.

[Chinook]

I can't find Bruce measurements on wingspan (I tried), other than 'great wingspan' comments. Maybe it's the lasting image of Bruce in his last few years, but he definitely did not have the hops or reach Danny has.

Not when he was with the Spurs, no. When he was in France, yes.

[ElNono]

Not when he was with the Spurs, no. When he was in France, yes.

I don't think he did.

[hater]

LMAO ya niggas sound like a bunch of nerds. who cares who was more athletic at their youth. Shit Bonner was a dunk champ too. Guess what, NBA Bonner is a damn greaseball, NBA Bowen couldn't hang.

NBA Green can hang with the highest flyers. It's no surprise Green has 202 total blocks in his 6 years in the league. Compare that to Bowen's total 303 blocks in 15+ years in the league

come on now :rolleyes

[peacemaker885]

Pop brought out DG's strengths and even DG know it. I know Spurs will do the right thing as we all know they will. DG + KL + PM + CJ + TS = future

We are just missing a real PF. Now that will be most difficult.

[Nathan89]

Green with his middle school handles on display tonight.

[Cklbmk]

Green with his middle school handles on display tonight.


Diaw too tbh

[hater]

Diaw too tbh

Evita and Patty and Duncan too tbqh

[Cklbmk]

Evita and Patty and Duncan too tbqh


Patty has an excuse. He's rusty.

[z0sa]

Lol. You can't even remember the 2013 Finals correctly and yet I'm supposed to take your take on 2003-2007 seriously.

I dont even ... you dont remember Bruce's entire stint with the Spurs is what seems painfully obvious to me.


You're talking about one-one-one D. LnL didn't tag-team one guy. They took out multiple stars at the same time. It wasn't like they were working together for the most part. They are both just elite at what they do.

Youre still comparing two players' accomplishments made TOGETHER in one series with one player's career accomplishments over his entire career. Youre just being absurdly biased anf not making any sense.


Not in the way you're implying. They checked their own guys Splitter helped LnL with Duncan as the anchor. Prime Tim helped Bowen. The biggest help LnL give each other is switching screens.

The more you describe the same absurdly disproportional situation, the more biased you appear. Post after post, you continue to dance around the fact you are comparing the contributions of two players in one playoff run to ONE player in several playoff runs. It is just strange and im not gonna waste any more time arguing this deeply flawed angle with you.

If you really think Danny and Kawhi dont help eachother IMMENSELY on d, umm ok be my guest. Calling other people's opinions bad just to derail the thread and make it about yourself reeks of attention whoring, anyway. You think you can tell people they're wrong about shutting superstars down mentally being important because YOU say so, well I say you dont know nearly as much as you think you do. Stats, including advanced stats, AID the eyetest. And yes i truly do find this misinformed concept of "These guys PROVE IN ONE SERIES you can completely shut down a star player these days" as a testament to you being out of touch with reality. Give the Spurs SYSTEM its due, instead of these individual players with only a couple seasons of being bonafide title level defensive stalwarts under their belts. Your entire perspective really sounds like you havent been watching basketball for that long.

[Brunodf]

Bump

[Blizzardwizard]

Yeah, he's getting the maximum power kick from Pop out of the A&T stadium door.

[spurraider21]

No, seriously, you've been around long enough to have seen people periodically post the vids of Bruce when he was young. It isn't a revelation that Bruce could sky when he was a scrub.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=-vSiVOrJL4ukgwSj7YOIDw&url=http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8kqzm_michel-veyronnet-coach-de-bruce-bow_sport&ved=0CB8QtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEsEUEOtiF7O4u0GmMKoUtEDyMLLg&sig2=N2_GEzEIGEz_2W-RZI-szw

He was OLD with the Spurs. But he was not a poor athlete his whole life.
:lol you had to dig up a foreign video from 1995 to make a point that bowen was a good athlete

[Darius McCrary]

Always funny when Harlem pretends to know stuff :lmao

[ElNono]

He had a key block tonight, but he gotta get that 3 ball back on track... It's costing him money right now

[pgardn]

He had a key block tonight, but he gotta get that 3 ball back on track... It's costing him money right now

He was bad tonight overall.

Lost his man on D a # of times, and again the ball handling issues were on display.
The 3 will come back.

[Sean Cagney]

I still laugh my ass off at the title of this thread, Max? He is a good player but in this system, outside of it he would fail IMO, he is not that great of a player but in this system he knows how to play and does it well, this is his bread and butter. He will get a contract in SA, but it will not be near a max.

[Malik Hairston]

Always funny when Harlem pretends to know stuff :lmao

:lol timvp's alternate account riding me, as usual..cliff-jumping, Cory Joseph-loving, Tony Parker-idolizing, antiquated mentality Spurs fans that don't understand advanced metrics and statistics..

Tomorrow' I'm going to detail how much the Spurs rely on and even live and die by Green's production..

[apalisoc_9]

:lol timvp's alternate account riding me, as usual..cliff-jumping, Cory Joseph-loving, Tony Parker-idolizing, antiquated mentality Spurs fans that don't understand advanced metrics and statistics..

Tomorrow' I'm going to detail how much the Spurs rely on and even live and die by Green's production..

oh but it's timmy that makes danny a good defender...

Big 3 for life..

:lol

[Malik Hairston]

oh but it's timmy that makes danny a good defender...

Big 3 for life..

:lol

:lol that poster is a massive cliff-diver, too..

That nigga said he would take Harrison Barnes over Kawhi:lmao..

[baseline bum]

I still laugh my ass off at the title of this thread, Max? He is a good player but in this system, outside of it he would fail IMO, he is not that great of a player but in this system he knows how to play and does it well, this is his bread and butter. He will get a contract in SA, but it will not be near a max.

Danny Green would kill on the Cavs, Thunder, Rockets, Grizzlies. He is right there with Bowen, Horry, and Rose among the greatest role players in franchise history.

[Sean Cagney]

Danny Green would kill on the Cavs, Thunder, Rockets, Grizzlies. He is right there with Bowen, Horry, and Rose among the greatest role players in franchise history.

In the right SYSTEM you are correct, to go out and get the max and sign with a team to be a star? HELL NO, that is max money there and for players who can create etc. on their own. He is great for the system, whether or not he would be good on the other teams is up for debate but you could be correct about certain teams and Green (Still not a Max). BTW what did Rose or Bowen do outside of SA? Before SA Bowen was released a few times or just not nearly as good, when he got to SA he became what he was IMO. Rose was never good and fizzled out as far as being out of the system in SA, he tried to jump shoot too much and went to NY in the trade and never recaptured what he was in SA so you kind of prove my point by adding him to this list. Horry is the lone example here, he was just such a witty role player with the know how on how to play the game right, he was a savvy Vet and had the clutch gene no matter where he went so he was one of a kind (Still was NEVER on a bad team though).

[baseline bum]

In the right SYSTEM you are correct, to go out and get the max and sign with a team to be a star? HELL NO, that is max money there and for players who can create etc. on their own. He is great for the system, whether or not he would be good on the other teams is up for debate but you could be correct about certain teams and Green (Still not a Max). BTW what did Rose or Bowen do outside of SA? Before SA Bowen was released a few times or just not nearly as good, when he got to SA he became what he was IMO. Rose was never good and fizzled out as far as being out of the system in SA, he tried to jump shoot too much and went to NY in the trade and never recaptured what he was in SA so you kind of prove my point by adding him to this list. Horry is the lone example here, he was just such a witty role player with the know how on how to play the game right, he was a savvy Vet and had the clutch gene no matter where he went so he was one of a kind (Still was NEVER on a bad team though).

Bowen was a bigtime defensive player in Miami. He couldn't shoot the ball there, but he was still a really valuable role player for the Heat. Why do you think Pop was dying to sign him and Portland was throwing huge money to stop Bowen from coming here? Rose just aged badly, being a severely undersized bigman.

[freetiago]

you seem to throw the would system around a lot but I guarantee you have no idea what "the system" is
Danny Green would thrive anywhere
3 ball and defense aren't system skills

[Sean Cagney]

Bowen was a bigtime defensive player in Miami. He couldn't shoot the ball there, but he was still a really valuable role player for the Heat. Why do you think Pop was dying to sign him and Portland was throwing huge money to stop Bowen from coming here? Rose just aged badly, being a severely undersized bigman.

Bowen was all 2nd or 3rd D team in Miami that year I remember, like you said though in this system actually developed a corner shot in which they wanted him to be able to hit and added more to his game! He went from all D team to damn near DPOY a few times and had a deadly corner three so he improved in this system! He was released a few times before that I believe. Rose I agree on. Still they are only good on the right team with the right system, not Max players like this thread says at the beginning which is a joke. Green is not a superstar or a max player, he is a 7 Mill or so a year guy and I think he will get that deal and I hope it is in SA. If he goes somewhere for a big contract on a bad team he will fall flat on his face, period.
you seem to throw the would system around a lot but I guarantee you have no idea what "the system" is
Danny Green would thrive anywhere
3 ball and defense aren't system skills
And with that said he was released in Cleveland and he is far from a MAX player. He is good on a certain team with a role, if you pay him like Ariza say (Who is great on D as well and a good three shooter) and try to make him a star of the team he will not THRIVE, fact. He is not a Max player like this thread says, my point. He is a good role player, period.

[baseline bum]

Bowen was all 2nd or 3rd D team in Miami that year I remember, like you said though in this system actually developed a corner shot in which they wanted him to be able to hit and added more to his game! He went from all D team to damn near DPOY a few times and had a deadly corner three so he improved in this system! He was released a few times before that I believe. Rose I agree on. Still they are only good on the right team with the right system, not Max players like this thread says at the beginning which is a joke. Green is not a superstar or a max player, he is a 7 Mill or so a year guy and I think he will get that deal and I hope it is in SA. If he goes somewhere for a big contract on a bad team he will fall flat on his face, period.

Of course Green's not a max player, but he'll get significantly more than $7 million a year. That's Jodie Meeks money.

[Sean Cagney]

Of course Green's not a max player, but he'll get significantly more than $7 million a year. That's Jodie Meeks money.

We will see what market value is, Tony and Manu in their primes did not make max money because they accepted less and they were all stars. He will probably get how much a year are you guessing? He won't make 10 million a year I guarantee you that, nor near the Max as this stupid thread says. He is a very good role player and I hope the Spurs pay that man and retain him, he is a nice fit to this team.

[baseline bum]

We will see what market value is, Tony and Manu in their primes did not make max money because they accepted less and they were all stars. He will probably get how much a year are you guessing? He won't make 10 million a year I guarantee you that, nor near the Max as this stupid thread says. He is a very good role player and I hope the Spurs pay that man and retain him, he is a nice fit to this team.

I think $10 million a year isn't out of the question, especially considering the new TV deal coming. I'm going to guess he signs a deal for somewhere around $9 million a year. Especially with Chandler Parsons making what, like $15 million a year?

[Sean Cagney]

I think $10 million a year isn't out of the question, especially considering the new TV deal coming. I'm going to guess he signs a deal for somewhere around $9 million a year. Especially with Chandler Parsons making what, like $15 million a year?

Yeah I forgot about the new bump coming this offseason, most opted to be FA's this summer to get more money. I bet he gets around 8.5 to 9 a year as well, some heavier loading on the back end but I bet he does get around that. Kawhi will get more no doubt whether he plays alot this year or not, his upside is crazy and he is not a Max player yet either (UNLESS he comes back really strong this year) but he will get paid as well this offseason on a longer term contract. The Spurs are going to have to pay both of them good dollar, period.


3 year 26 or 27 Million sounds about right for Danny, Kawhi probably 3 (45 Mill) or 4 years for around 60 Million if a 4th is added IMO, somewhere in that neighborhood. Either or both will get paid.

[Chris]

Based Green carrying the Spurs through the first quarter

[freetiago]

He was running point in the comeback also

[milkyway21]

CO-$IGNED.

[pgardn]

He was running point in the comeback also

What?

[TheGreatYacht]

Only wing earning the max, tbh...

[Cklbmk]

Has danny green solidified his max extension

[phxspurfan]

8-9mil per sounds about right. Doubt he gets that from us though.

[Raven]

pop has clearly been trying to torpedo green's and cory's value in free agency. I'd say he's been successful, but the team has really been struggling because of that.