Transgender teen kills herself and suicide note goes viral

[ashbeeigh]

Mostly posting just to see your reactions.



Transgender teenager Leelah Alcorn took her life because ‘parents would not allow her to transition’

A transgender teenager used her suicide note to claim she ended her life because her hardline Christian parents would not allow her to transition medically, and urged society to treat transgender people “like humans”.

Leelah Alcorn, 17, died a few miles from her family home in Ohio, after she was hit by a tractor-trailer just before 2:30am of Sunday morning. The incident occurred on the southbound Interstate 71 in Union Township in Warren County, and is being investigated by Ohio State Highway.

Police reports confirmed the teenager had died, but identified her byusing her birth name Joshua Alcorn, which has also been widely used by local media.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-teenager-leelah-alcorn-took-her-life-because-parents-would-not-allow-her-to-transition-9950943.html


link to note (http://lazerprincess.tumblr.com/post/106447705738/suicide-note)

[russellgoat]

That is the only real cure to gender dysphoria or shemaleism tbh... good for him

[mouse]

Not allowing a human to live a life of they're own may be the worst form of human behavior ever displayed.

[Franklin]

trannies are best suited for celibate life imho, when they masturbate they may use both hands at once and achieve twice the pleasure :lol

[russellgoat]

Not allowing a human to live a life of they're own may be the worst form of human behavior ever displayed.

Well, shemale enabler usually don't want to let the people who wants to cut their limbs live a life.

[Strange Love]

Did the parents not accept him for what he was or did they just not want to waste money on an operation that would rape them financially?

Those kind of operations are costly. Also, it wouldn't have been just 1 operation. They usually have to have like 3 at the most to look halfway decent to a chick.

FkLA (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17213) tell 'em

[Franklin]

transition to the female gender then, it'd be cheaper and easier I think.

[Trill Clinton]

RIP leelah. she should have waited until she was 18 and left her family home.

[ashbeeigh]

Did the parents not accept him for what he was or did they just not want to waste money on an operation that would rape them financially?

Those kind of operations are costly. Also, it wouldn't have been just 1 operation. They usually have to have like 3 at the most to look halfway decent to a chick.


I don't think the cost of the operation was Leelah's main gripe with her parents. It was their inability to accept her as her. Sure, they could have argued about the assignment surgery, but that argument would be so much less important had they just accepted her as she was.



When I was 14, I learned what transgender meant and cried of happiness. After 10 years of confusion I finally understood who I was. I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong. If you are reading this, parents, please don’t tell this to your kids. Even if you are Christian or are against transgender people don’t ever say that to someone, especially your kid. That won’t do anything but make them hate them self. That’s exactly what it did to me.

My mom started taking me to a therapist, but would only take me to christian therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help.

When I was 16 I realized that my parents would never come around, and that I would have to wait until I was 18 to start any sort of transitioning treatment, which absolutely broke my heart. The longer you wait, the harder it is to transition. I felt hopeless, that I was just going to look like a man in drag for the rest of my life. On my 16th birthday, when I didn’t receive consent from my parents to start transitioning, I cried myself to sleep.

[Malik Hairston]

Feel bad for the parents, tbh..

I'm tolerant of everything, but I understand that it's probably difficult for most parents to deal with homosexuality, etc regarding their children..my mom is from an era where she would kill my siblings or myself if we were Gay,let alone transgender, just keeping it 100, tbh..

I don't know how I would deal with it, personally..I wouldn't care if my siblings were Gay, so I guess I probably wouldn't care if my future kids were, either..

[Franklin]

^ were you just showing us how lucky you were to survive your childhood?

[apalisoc_9]

People need to realize, parents today, particularly those with 10+ year old kids don't see Homosexuality as something that is Natural.

I don't blame the parents at all..The media making it seems like it was their fault speaks propaganda.

Me personally, I would probably disown my son if he transgender...If he was gay, counseling..won't disown though.

Yup, just being 100% real.

[Strange Love]

I think this speaks more for how stupidly air headed some people can be when it comes to religion.

Cant tolerate gays because I'm a devout christian. :cry

If you're going to hate on homosexual do it because the fact that two dudes doing it its gross to you. Dont hate on it because some unseen god tells you its the wrong thing.

[RD2191]

Who the fuck cares? Some faggot wanted to chop his dick off and become a woman? Disgusting. His name was Josh. And he was a man. Not a woman. He would of never been a woman. Just a dude that cut off his penis. Oh and his horrible Christian parents! They didn't want their son to cut his penis off and take cocks up the ass! How terrible of them!

[DeadlyDynasty]

Their house, their rules...and nothing illegal was done by the parents (at least not from what I've read).

[RD2191]

And if this dude actually gave a shit about "trans rights" he would of chose to live. Live and fight for your cause. Fight for your rights. Don't be a coward and take the easy way out. What kind of example is that? If you're bullied for being different you should kill yourself? Fine example for all the other "transgender" youth out there.

[TE]

Who the fuck cares? Some faggot wanted to chop his dick off and become a woman? Disgusting. His name was Josh. And he was a man. Not a woman. He would of never been a woman. Just a dude that cut off his penis. Oh and his horrible Christian parents! They didn't want their son to cut his penis off and take cocks up the ass! How terrible of them!
robdiaz going hard in the paint, tbh

[TE]

The site is bugged. Wtf do I cryhavoc's avatar?

[RD2191]

robdiaz going hard in the paint, tbh
Gotta keep it real.:lol

[DMC]

I don't think the cost of the operation was Leelah's main gripe with her parents. It was their inability to accept her as her. Sure, they could have argued about the assignment surgery, but that argument would be so much less important had they just accepted her as she was.

It's asking a lot. You cannot change your mental makeup to accept your male friend is a female because they decided to be. We aren't wired that way. If it's a hypogonadism issue where the baby is born with both sets of genatalia, then whatever identity is established early on seems to set. Eventually the person might want to be the opposite sexual identity and that can be caused by increase in estrogen levels, decrease in testosterone due to accident or surgery or other mitigating factors. Either way it's rarely a lifestyle decision. I feel sorry for people who have that burden. It's basically a birth defect and parents aren't educated enough to understand the transitions that take place.

Parents can no more accept him as a her than the child can accept her as a him or vice versa. Expecting others to change with you is futile. I can see how it could lead to suicide. Imagine the parents requesting the child switch gender roles between them, now mom is dad and dad is mom and mom is getting a penis and so forth. Child might go along with it but mentally mom is mom.

[Pauly D]

what a fucking drama queen. One more year and he can do whatever he wants.


or that it was "possible for a boy to become a girl".

:lol because it's not. Call yourself whatever you want but it doesn't make it true. Gender =/= sex

[Pauly D]

http://thoughtcatalog.com/gavin-mcinnes/2014/08/transphobia-is-perfectly-natural/

From one of my heroes. Very relevant

[DMC]

what a fucking drama queen. One more year and he can do whatever he wants.



:lol because it's not. Call yourself whatever you want but it doesn't make it true. Gender =/= sex

What if the person has both sets of genatalia?

[Pauly D]

I don't think the cost of the operation was Leelah's main gripe with her parents. It was their inability to accept her as her. Sure, they could have argued about the assignment surgery, but that argument would be so much less important had they just accepted her as she was.

boohoo. Plenty of parents are shitty to their kids for plenty of other reasons. It's no different than a kid who has a career goal that's less ambitious than what the parents always expected


What if the person has both sets of genatalia?

then they're a biological anomaly. Let's focus on the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the human population

[DMC]

then they're a biological anomaly. Let's focus on the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the human population

Then we agree. Suicide is always a viable option for everyone capable of doing it. It's honorable actually, pressing your own eject button. Looks like Justin Beiber though.

[Pauly D]

http://boards.4chan.org/b/thread/589457547/ittwe-discuss-this

get it while it's hot! These people get it

[Silver&Black]

Who the fuck cares? Some faggot wanted to chop his dick off and become a woman? Disgusting. His name was Josh. And he was a man. Not a woman. He would of never been a woman. Just a dude that cut off his penis. Oh and his horrible Christian parents! They didn't want their son to cut his penis off and take cocks up the ass! How terrible of them!

:worthy: robdiaz2191

[Spurminator]

Mostly posting just to see your reactions.

Do you also toss pennies into piles of cow shit to see how far they sink?

[jeebus]

:lol so some 17 year old kid throws on a dress and puts on the duckface, and all the sudden he's a "she"? :lmao what a fucking pussy. guess his peasant ass couldn't wait another year, turn 18, move out, then shove as many dicks in his ass til he's happy and full of AIDS?

:cry "oh no, my parents don't understand me. this never happens to a teenager" :cry The world is better off with less of these pussies ruining earth for the rest of us.

[SnakeBoy]

I don't think the cost of the operation was Leelah's main gripe with her parents. It was their inability to accept her as her. Sure, they could have argued about the assignment surgery, but that argument would be so much less important had they just accepted her as she was.

This person was male. Now that he is dead there is no need to cater to his delusions.

[RD2191]

:lol so some 17 year old kid throws on a dress and puts on the duckface, and all the sudden he's a "she"? :lmao what a fucking pussy. guess his peasant ass couldn't wait another year, turn 18, move out, then shove as many dicks in his ass til he's happy and full of AIDS?

:cry "oh no, my parents don't understand me. this never happens to a teenager" :cry The world is better off with less of these pussies ruining earth for the rest of us.
Jeebus dropping nukes.

[UZER]

Teen - "I want a new car because this 1988 corolla doesn't represent me! It's keeping me from becoming who I really am."

Parent - "no"

Teen - *bang*


The fact that this is going viral is just stupid. Parents are losing their ability to parent because kids want what they want... now!

I always knew where the door was if something i didn't like in the house I lived in was unbearable.

[RD2191]

Teen - "I want a new car because this 1988 corolla doesn't represent me! It's keeping me from becoming who I really am."

Parent - "no"

Teen - *bang*


The fact that this is going viral is just stupid. Parents are losing their ability to parent because kids want what they want... now!

I always knew where the door was if something i didn't like in the house I lived in was unbearable.
Exactly.

[Pauly D]

Teen - "I want a new car because this 1988 corolla doesn't represent me! It's keeping me from becoming who I really am."

Parent - "no"

Teen - *bang*


The fact that this is going viral is just stupid. Parents are losing their ability to parent because kids want what they want... now!

I always knew where the door was if something i didn't like in the house I lived in was unbearable.

the teen in your scenario at least killed himself without getting someone else involved. Let's think about the poor truck driver who has to live with those images forever. He could've jumped off a few stories with no one around, use a gun, open some arteries, hang himself, run the car in the garage. He was inconsiderate

[RD2191]

Also could of killed the truck driver had he lost control.

[DJR210]

This fool is whining about donating all his belongings to Transgender awareness groups and hoping for a day that trannies aren't treated a certain way..

Gays are treated better today than ever before, every time you turn around there's some mainstream media outlet glorifying gays. Gay marriage and gay rights are being shoved down the nation's throats. The problem was with his parents, and them cutting him off from society. Too bad he had such a quitters attitude, he may have been able to work something out with them or move on with his life and say fuck em'.

[DJR210]

Also, who the fuck jumps in front of a semi to off them self? :lol

[UZER]

Also, who the fuck jumps in front of a semi to off them self? :lol

Good thing there isn't a video of that going rival.

[DJR210]

Good thing there isn't a video of that going rival.

Just watch Pet Semetary, it's close enough

[RD2191]

Also, who the fuck jumps in front of a semi to off them self? :lol
Wonder what his body looked like after? I mean I've fucked up cows and deer while driving a rig.

[DJR210]

Wonder what his body looked like after? I mean I've fucked up cows and deer while driving a rig.

I guess it depends on how far he threw himself out in front of the truck, and how fast it was going. I'm picturing 70 MPH, and a cascading shower of disintegrated body matter and blood.

[Dirk Oneanddoneski]

Also, who the fuck jumps in front of a semi to off them self? :lol

Dude must have watched the Sons of anarchy finale and offed himself because Cleetus van Dam makes a better looking woman than him

[DJR210]

Dude must have watched the Sons of anarchy finale and offed himself because Cleetus van Dam makes a better looking woman than him

:lol

I have no sympathy for anyone who kills themselves, tranny or not. From reading the note this queer was also depressed over his financials, and the fact his parents weren't gonna pay his way through school over his lifestyle choice. So the only way to fix the horrible scenario of paving your own way through life? Jump in front of a speeding 18 wheeler!! Fucking quitter.

[Strange Love]

Also, who the fuck jumps in front of a semi to off them self? :lol

He saw the finale of Sons of Anarchy.

Some of ya'll responses are brutal. Courtesy of anonymity of the internet.

[m>s]

Feel bad for the parents, tbh..

I'm tolerant of everything, but I understand that it's probably difficult for most parents to deal with homosexuality, etc regarding their children..my mom is from an era where she would kill my siblings or myself if we were Gay,let alone transgender, just keeping it 100, tbh..

I don't know how I would deal with it, personally..I wouldn't care if my siblings were Gay, so I guess I probably wouldn't care if my future kids were, either..
Is that why you moved to canada

[m>s]

lol the title "herself"

[Trainwreck2100]

lol the title "herself"

i assumed coming in it was a carpetmuncher who offed herself cause of that shit

[RD2191]

I guess it depends on how far he threw himself out in front of the truck, and how fast it was going. I'm picturing 70 MPH, and a cascading shower of disintegrated body matter and blood.
Same here.:lol

[mingus]

He could've sought out unbiased counseling himself. His parents were cocksuckers for not accepting him/her but give me a break, killing yourself is never the solution. It's like he did it to make a name for himself and shine light on the issue when there are alternative ways to doing that.

[Woo Bum-kon]

the teen in your scenario at least killed himself without getting someone else involved. Let's think about the poor truck driver who has to live with those images forever. He could've jumped off a few stories with no one around, use a gun, open some arteries, hang himself, run the car in the garage. He was inconsiderate

C.unt move, to be honest.

[z0sa]

Terrible person tbh.. I have a lot more respect for your average gay than a transgender. Their entire thought process around their sexuality reeks of deception and a lack of ethics tbh

[Jacob1983]

Isn't gender all about the law? This boy was legally still a boy. Why didn't he emancipate and then legally change his gender to be a girl? Just because you say you're something doesn't make it so. Gots to do shit on your own.

[phxspurfan]

Fucking weirdos if you ask me. Mental disabilities galore. Live in society or gtfo.

edit: I know society has changed b/c of legitimate issues like the Women's and Civil Rights movements, but this is taking it a bit too far. He was born a he, and no stupid misguided little boy should be pandered to. We live in a civilized society, not a bunch of freaks running around doing stupid shit.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Terrible person tbh.. I have a lot more respect for your average gay than a transgender. Their entire thought process around their sexuality reeks of deception and a lack of ethics tbh

:lol The same can be said about Christianity which was the position of the kid's opposition.

[unleashbaynes]

I am fine with gays but transgender is something i will never understand and will always make me uncomfortable. Playing dress up and pretending to be something you aren't is for little kids.

[Pauly D]

Where did OP go? She said she wanted everyone's reaction but now she's disappeared

[ashbeeigh]

Where did OP go? She said she wanted everyone's reaction but now she's disappeared

I'm here. And my basic rule is if I can't say something nice I won't say anything.

[Strange Love]

I am fine with gays but transgender is something i will never understand and will always make me uncomfortable. Playing dress up and pretending to be something you aren't is for little kids.

If you are comitted to "changing" your whole anatomy, you can successfully transition.

But you gotta be ready to spend lots of cash. Nothing is impossible if you have the green.

[Jacob1983]

So if I wanted to be Megatron, I can just make everyone see me as 50 foot tall robot?

[jeebus]

So if I wanted to be Megatron, I can just make everyone see me as 50 foot tall robot?
Just change your hairstyle, maybe change the pitch of your voice, and call yourself Megatron. That's pretty much the norm nowadays to changing sexes. Which reminds me, I better get a haircut soon before I become a girl and I'm forced to kill myself.

[Strange Love]

So if I wanted to be Megatron, I can just make everyone see me as 50 foot tall robot?

Virgin take.

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/02/pits-of-hell-on-the-rise-people-are-morphing-into-literal-demons-and-proud-of-it-a-new-world-order-of-its-own-kind-horrifying-pictures-and-videos-2458902.html

[DJR210]

I'm here. And my basic rule is if I can't say something nice I won't say anything.

Not a good rule here. Speak your mind.

[Pauly D]

I'm here. And my basic rule is if I can't say something nice I won't say anything.

fuck that

[Jacob1983]

So I can't be Megatron or what about a T-Rex?

[DeadlyDynasty]

So I can't be Megatron or what about a T-Rex?
You can be a T-Girl if that's any consolation

[ashbeeigh]

Not a good rule here. Speak your mind.


fuck that

Gender and sex are two completely different things. Sex is biological and gender is cultural (x (http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html))

Thus, transgender is defined as " of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth." (x (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender))

With that being said, transgender has no relationship to "mental illness" as many of you all have said. This is culture, we are evolving and gender changes. It's uncomfortable. And many of these responses, in my opinion, is out of fear and lack of understanding. Transgender teens are, however, more likely to suffer from other types of mental illness, depression, anxiety, adhd, etc that would ultimately lead to suicide. Understanding the brain, mind, psychology, etc of someone who identifies as transgender is a new and emerging part of therapy, social work and social science as a whole. I don't claim to have answers, but I do claim to be accepting and unconditional toward everyone who is going through this.

Leelah Alcorn (as I will refer to her from here on out) was affected by the fear and lack of understanding of what gender identity is and how we, as a society, deal with it. I understand many of the statements about her just needing to suck it up and deal with it for the next year until she could leave at the age of 18, however, let's go back to the mental health issues. In addition, emancipation from parents is costly (at least $200 to file) followed by any hearings and paperwork. While I cannot say for a fact if money was ever an issue for Leelah, it sure could have been.

I am unaware of what Leelah's parents' specific religion is. Christian is a catch all phrase and even though there are many many denominations that disapprove of the LGBTQA community, there are many that are accepting. For example Metropolitan Church and Travis Park UMC in San Antonio. Her parents were hard headed and not open and supportive of their child and her identity. It hurts my heart to think of how unaccepting Leelah's parents were when there are many Christians that do and would have accepted her as the way she was. Sex transition is a process and is pricey as well. I am also unaware of where she was going to get the money to complete this surgery. I haven't done research on that either.

Anyway, it hurts my heart to see home of your reactions to this. Others have surprised me. That's my opinion and feel free to pick it apart and argue. I'm not going to.

[DJR210]

Virgin take.

:lol

[Spurminator]

I can't keep up with the mental aerobics in the transgender discussion when it comes to minors.

I have no problem with adults choosing to surgically alter themselves in any way they want, but I do have a problem with the idea that we have a societal obligation to affirm whatever a child or teenager believes about themselves. While there's a long way to go, we've made a lot of progress in moving away from gender norms and archetypes and accepting a variety of sexual preferences. There should be no reason Joshua/Leelah couldn't remain, sexually, a boy during his teenage years. He wanted gender reassignment treatment, his parents wouldn't let him have it, so he killed himself instead of waiting another year to be an adult and paying for the treatment/surgery himself. Basically, he didn't get what he wanted, so he killed himself by throwing himself in front of an innocent driver's car. He's not a hero and it's irresponsible to treat him like one... and it's especially sick to see people harassing his parents.

Yes, they should have been more supportive of some of his behavior, but that's relevant in a lot of family situations. Let him wear what he wants, date who he wants.... none of that is harmful. Tell him when he's an adult, he can take hormones and have whatever surgery he wants, change his name and live however he wants to live.

But most importantly, teach him that none of that defines his worth or who he is. For whatever reason, he had pinned his entire identity on whether or not he had a female body and couldn't live another day with his current one. That's sad.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I can't keep up with the mental aerobics in the transgender discussion when it comes to minors.

I have no problem with adults choosing to surgically alter themselves in any way they want, but I do have a problem with the idea that we have a societal obligation to affirm whatever a child or teenager believes about themselves. While there's a long way to go, we've made a lot of progress in moving away from gender norms and archetypes and accepting a variety of sexual preferences. There should be no reason Joshua/Leelah couldn't remain, sexually, a boy during his teenage years. He wanted gender reassignment treatment, his parents wouldn't let him have it, so he killed himself instead of waiting another year to be an adult and paying for the treatment/surgery himself. Basically, he didn't get what he wanted, so he killed himself by throwing himself in front of an innocent driver's car. He's not a hero and it's irresponsible to treat him like one... and it's especially sick to see people harassing his parents.

Yes, they should have been more supportive of some of his behavior, but that's relevant in a lot of family situations. Let him wear what he wants, date who he wants.... none of that is harmful. Tell him when he's an adult, he can take hormones and have whatever surgery he wants, change his name and live however he wants to live.

But most importantly, teach him that none of that defines his worth or who he is. For whatever reason, he had pinned his entire identity on whether or not he had a female body and couldn't live another day with his current one. That's sad.

Well said.

Unfortunately there are more Ashbeeighs on social media spreading garbage than Spurminators spreading truth.

[Pauly D]

LGBTQA

What the fuck is Q and A?

[Trainwreck2100]

What the fuck is Q and A?

quadrosexual and andriosexual?

[ashbeeigh]

Queer and Asexual (as well as ally) http://internationalspectrum.umich.edu/life/definitions

[UZER]

It hurts my heart that's his parents wouldn't let him cut off his penis :cry

[vander]

poor kid, he really lost life's lottery by being born in America to a christian family

[RD2191]

I don't understand how removing his penis would make him anymore of a "woman". It would technically still be there. On the inside "biologically" (probably wrong term) he would still be a male. He would never have breasts (real with milk lol) or be able to have children. Always a male. Some fucked up shit going on in that dude's head.

[Buddy Mignon]

You people are fucking pathetic.

[ashbeeigh]

\ he would still be a male. He would never have breasts (real with milk lol)

Wrong.



When a M2F person then cuts their dosages, specifically the progesterone, they inadvertantly mimiced the sudden drop in progesterone that happens when a woman gives birth. That triggers Stage Two Lactogenesis (also called "copious milk production"). This typically begins 30-40 hours after the drop in progesterone, but actual lactation usually doesn't start for 50-73 hours (2-3 days) after birth, so the M2F experiencing breast leakage most likely won't notice it until more than two days later, and may not make the connection that cutting their dosage triggered the lactation. As mentioned at the beginning of this section, the fluid is often yellowish. This is because it's what is called "foremilk" which is very high in fat content, and fat is yellow in color.

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/hrt_m2f.htm

[RD2191]

Wrong.
That's the thing though. That isn't natural. That's modification or whatever the hell you want to call it. He wasn't born that way. And I still don't understand how that makes him a woman. On the inside he would still be a man. I can buy a honda civic and slap a Nissan gtr body kit on it, buy some gtr emblems and tell everyone that I have a gtr. That of course would be a lie though. It was and always will be a honda civic. A modified civic but still a civic. Just as josh would have always of been a man. A man that removed his penis and took hormones or whatever to become LIKE a woman but never truly a woman/female.

[ashbeeigh]

That's the thing though. That isn't natural. That's modification or whatever the hell you want to call it. He wasn't born that way. And I still don't understand how that makes him a woman. On the inside he would still be a man. .

It sure is. But you seem yo be getting gender and sex mixed up. Yes, she would always be biologically male (her sex), with an XY chromosome. But, her gender would be female. Being a man and a woman is a social construct that you've obviously put into neat little boxes colored blue and pink. Being a boy and a girl is more than just blue and pink.

[ashbeeigh]

There are currently 6 users browsing this thread. (4 members and 2 guests)
ashbeeigh, vander, z0sa+, ATRAIN+

Oh you, again.

[vander]

It sure is. But you seem yo be getting gender and sex mixed up. Yes, she would always be biologically male (her sex), with an XY chromosome. But, her gender would be female. Being a man and a woman is a social construct that you've obviously put into neat little boxes colored blue and pink. Being a boy and a girl is more than just blue and pink.

so you have to undergo surgery and take drugs to "culturally" become the other gender?

[RD2191]

It sure is. But you seem yo be getting gender and sex mixed up. Yes, she would always be biologically male (her sex), with an XY chromosome. But, her gender would be female. Being a man and a woman is a social construct that you've obviously put into neat little boxes colored blue and pink. Being a boy and a girl is more than just blue and pink.
So you're saying I can be a woman? Do you really believe that? So how does one determine what they are? Is it okay if a grown man who claims to be a woman now is allowed into a woman's bathroom? Even with children in there? What if he's a pedo? How would anyone know if he was lying or telling the truth? If Josh wanted to be a woman why not just dress as a woman? Why the need to remove his penis? Who would even know that he was born a male unless he told them? What acceptance was he looking for? Did he want people to say okay you were born a male but you are a woman? That's what would make him a woman?

[ashbeeigh]

so you have to undergo surgery and take drugs to "culturally" become the other gender?


That's up to the person to decide. You'd need to talk to someone who is transgender to find out whether your statement is true or not.

[RD2191]

So what is a woman and what is a man? If both are made up then how does one define what makes one what? A girl wears dresses and makeup and a man wears boots and jeans? Says who? What Josh wanted was to be a female. Which would be impossible. If he truly believed he was a woman what acceptance was he looking for? What reassurance or conformation did he need?

[ashbeeigh]

So you're saying I can be a woman?
Sure. If you think you're a woman.

Do you really believe that? So how does one determine what they are?
I'm not transgender so I can't answer that.

Is it okay if a grown man who claims to be a woman now is allowed into a woman's bathroom?
Google http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/transgender/restroom-faq

Even with children in there?
If it's my child I've raised them enough to not judge someone.

What if he's a pedo?
There is a psychological component to transitional surgery. A surgeon, ethically would not be able to complete a gender reassignment surgery if someone was a document sex offender.

] How would anyone know if he was lying or telling the truth?
Don't know.

If Josh wanted to be a woman why not just dress as a woman?
Sure. But again, like I said, it's up to that specific person to decide what they are comfortable with.

Why the need to remove his penis?
See above

Who would even know that he was born a male unless he told them?
That's what culture does to you.

What acceptance was he looking for?
She was looking to be accepted as she was. Whether it was a male or female. Read the letter.

Did he want people to say okay you were born a male but you are a woman?
Sounds about right to me. And also 'I love you no matter what you are.'

That's what would make him a woman?
Again, not my place to say.

[RD2191]

In this situation acceptance means his parents paying for his surgery. It's gotta be tough for parents to pay for their son to have his penis removed at such a young age. Not knowing if that's what they really truly want. Couple of years later and he might blame his parents for allowing him to do it when he was just a teen. Just full of shit, imo.

[ashbeeigh]

In this situation acceptance means his parents paying for his surgery. It's gotta be tough for parents to pay for their son to have his penis removed at such a young age. Not knowing if that's what they really truly want. Couple of years later and he might blame his parents for allowing him to do it when he was just a teen. Just full of shit, imo.

I think the surgery played a small part in this, it's the lack of acceptance and hateful attempts to set her straight is what, I believe played the largest part in her death.

Another thing to note is that transgender is not a phase. It's not teenage rebellion, which you seem to characterize it as.

[RD2191]

I think the surgery played a small part in this, it's the lack of acceptance and hateful attempts to set her straight is what, I believe played the largest part in her death.

Another thing to note is that transgender is not a phase. It's not teenage rebellion, which you seem to characterize it as.
But as a parent it has to be a very difficult situation to be in. I changed my mind/views about 10 times a day when I was 16. I don't understand how them trying to do what was best (in their mind) was hateful. This is like a teen asking if they can pierce or tattoo their bodies. It isn't easy to say yes as a parent to something that can affect their children's entire lives. And his parents may of never accepted him. That's just the way it is.

[ashbeeigh]

. I don't understand how them trying to do what was best (in their mind) was hateful.It isn't easy to say yes as a parent to something that can affect their children's entire lives. And his parents may of never accepted him. That's just the way it is.

Are you a parent? It doesn't sound like it. I'm not either, but I do know plenty of them and work with some pretty rowdy out of control kids daily at work. From what I have learned from those experiences is that parents should love their kids unconditionally, no if ands or buts about it, and that includes if they don't agree with you. You, as a parent, may not want them in your home or not talk to them regularly because you don't agree with their views, but you still love them. A parent should be wiling to listen to their children and that's what Leelah's parents did not do, which, in my mind, is unacceptable and hateful.


I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong.

[RD2191]

I just think this was a very confused young man. He was attracted to males, I'm guessing. Maybe in his mind he was trying to justify that by claiming to be a woman in a males body. Because as I said before, what would make him a woman? What is a woman? What does a woman do? And anything that can be answered is something society me up or geared towards I guess you could say.

[ashbeeigh]

I Because as I said before, what would make him a woman? What is a woman? What does a woman do? And anything that can be answered is something society me up or geared towards I guess you could say.

Well done, you seem to be getting it. Boy/girl is a social construct and Leelah did not fit into those boxes. And that's where society has gone wrong.

[RD2191]

Are you a parent? It doesn't sound like it. I'm not either, but I do know plenty of them and work with some pretty rowdy out of control kids daily at work. From what I have learned from those experiences is that parents should love their kids unconditionally, no if ands or buts about it, and that includes if they don't agree with you. You, as a parent, may not want them in your home or not talk to them regularly because you don't agree with their views, but you still love them. A parent should be wiling to listen to their children and that's what Leelah's parents did not do, which, in my mind, is unacceptable and hateful.
Take God out of it and his mom would still be technically correct. She was being truthful. In her mind she was doing what she could. No one is perfect. I don't think the parents were to blame here. They loved Josh. Do you think if they didn't that they would take him to therapy or whatever? They obviously cared. They had different views but who doesn't?

[Strange Love]

I just think this was a very confused young man.

Tell that to the million of already transgender people.

You're talking like you're an expert of what goes in the mind of these people.

We cant relate because we're straight. But to them, I'm sure its quite different.

Do you personally know any gays? I bet they have told you they've felt that way since probably childhood.

Apply the same logic to transgender people and its not such a hard leap.

[ashbeeigh]

Take God out of it and his mom would still be technically correct. She was being truthful. In her mind she was doing what she could. No one is perfect. I don't think the parents were to blame here. They loved Josh. Do you think if they didn't that they would take him to therapy or whatever? They obviously cared. They had different views but who doesn't?

The thing is, you can't take God out of it. It's a huge part of what makes this story what it is. If Leelah had gone to a therapist who has training in the stages of coming out (shit you not, that is a legit theory and I'm borderline not sure how i feel about it...but that's another story) things may have turned out drastically different.

[ashbeeigh]

So what is a woman and what is a man? If both are made up then how does one define what makes one what? A girl wears dresses and makeup and a man wears boots and jeans? Says who? What Josh wanted was to be a female. Which would be impossible. If he truly believed he was a woman what acceptance was he looking for? What reassurance or conformation did he need?

I missed this one but it appears we've kind of answered this as you've confused sex and gender here. And ultimately, a child wants to be accepted by their parents, which she wasn't.

[RD2191]

The thing is, you can't take God out of it. It's a huge part of what makes this story what it is. If Leelah had gone to a therapist who has training in the stages of coming out (shit you not, that is a legit theory and I'm borderline not sure how i feel about it...but that's another story) things may have turned out drastically different.
Maybe, but that still doesn't mean he would of been accepted by the rest of society in general. He still probably would of faced adversity/difficulty for the rest of his life. And a persons beliefs are their own. They may be right or wrong but they have every right to believe them. Josh also had every right to believe what he wanted but at the end of the day his parents were doing what they thought was right.

[RD2191]

I missed this one but it appears we've kind of answered this as you've confused sex and gender here. And ultimately, a child wants to be accepted by their parents, which she wasn't.
But that's not how it works. How would removing his penis of made him anymore of a woman? As I said before he was trying to be a female which would of been impossible. By society's definition one could argue that he was already a woman. But then again what makes a woman a woman?

[ashbeeigh]

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean he would of been accepted by the rest of society in general. He still probably would of faced adversity/difficulty for the rest of his life. And a persons beliefs are their own. They may be right or wrong but they have every right to believe them. Josh also had every right to believe what he wanted but at the end of the day his parents were doing what they thought was right.

I understand where you're coming from. But, as a parent, you gotta make changes, adjust, learn, accept. No matter what. That will be my approach to parenting. And your job, as a parent, is to be there for your child when they face that type of adversity. Absolutely Leelah would have faced adversity, and probably had, but your parents are supposed to be your champion, your cheerleader, your obsessed fan, and Leelah's parents failed at that.


But that's not how it works. How would removing his penis of made him anymore of a woman? As I said before he was trying to be a female which would of been impossible. By society's definition one could argue that he was already a woman. But then again what makes a woman a woman?

This is another one that you'll have to ask someone who is tansgender. I have no idea.

[RD2191]

Tell that to the million of already transgender people.

You're talking like you're an expert of what goes in the mind of these people.

We cant relate because we're straight. But to them, I'm sure its quite different.

Do you personally know any gays? I bet they have told you they've felt that way since probably childhood.

Apply the same logic to transgender people and its not such a hard leap.
A male born a male is a male and will always be a male. Now, they may be attracted to men but they're still male. Removing their penis wouldn't make them any less male than they were before.

[UZER]

Are you a parent? It doesn't sound like it. I'm not either, but I do know plenty of them and work with some pretty rowdy out of control kids daily at work. From what I have learned from those experiences is that parents should love their kids unconditionally, no if ands or buts about it, and that includes if they don't agree with you. You, as a parent, may not want them in your home or not talk to them regularly because you don't agree with their views, but you still love them. A parent should be wiling to listen to their children and that's what Leelah's parents did not do, which, in my mind, is unacceptable and hateful.

Unbelievable.

[RD2191]

I understand where you're coming from. But, as a parent, you gotta make changes, adjust, learn, accept. No matter what. That will be my approach to parenting. And your job, as a parent, is to be there for your child when they face that type of adversity. Absolutely Leelah would have faced adversity, and probably had, but your parents are supposed to be your champion, your cheerleader, your obsessed fan, and Leelah's parents failed at that.



This is another one that you'll have to ask someone who is tansgender. I have no idea.
As Christians they should be respectful and loving which imo they were. And parents are people too. Do you honestly believe Hitlers parents should of supported him and loved him?

[RD2191]

Unbelievable.
What's scary is that most people would agree with her. That's society for you. Makes me believe in the Bible even more, tbh. Having nothing to do with you or anything just my beliefs.

[ashbeeigh]

As Christians they should be respectful and loving which imo they were. And parents are people too. Do you honestly believe Hitlers parents should of supported him and loved him?

re·spect rəˈspekt/ have due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of.

All Leelah wished was to be seen as Leelah. That didn't happen. They did not respect her.


What's scary is that most people would agree with her. That's society for you. Makes me believe in the Bible even more, tbh. Having nothing to do with you or anything just my beliefs.

Is that in direct response to Leviticus 18:22? and 20:13? Because the Bible is open to interpretation and I do not take it literally, as you seem to. And that's cool whatevs. I'm actually very surprised there hasn't been any name calling yet.

I've clearly stated my opinion on the topic and it seems like we can agree that the role of male/female is defined by culture and it's fucked up. But outside of that we don't agree with many other aspects of this topic.

[koriwhat]

You're talking like you're an expert of what goes in the mind of these people.

that's what all the losers here do... don't you know? they're all experts on every fucking thing in this world except moving out of mommy's house and contributing to society.

[koriwhat]

Is that in direct response to Leviticus 18:22? and 20:13?...

so robdiaz believes in fiction but not in someone feeling alone and lost in their own skin? i'd believe a man can be a woman or vise versa before i believe in some bs book.

[ashbeeigh]

so robdiaz believes in fiction but not in someone feeling alone and lost in their own skin? i'd believe a man can be a woman or vise versa before i believe in some bs book.

http://www.travispark.org/Sermons September 21st and 28th sermons. Read those over. That's what I believe.

[koriwhat]

http://www.travispark.org/Sermons September 21st and 28th sermons. Read those over. That's what I believe.

sorry ashbeeigh but i don't tend to be an avid reader of fiction. the only fiction i read is here on ST. you can't get me to click a link that has "Sermons" in it.

this has nothing to do with you ashbeeigh just a rant... i can't believe so many people look down on others, others they don't even know personally, because these people are just wanting to live their lives happy and with no consequence to anyone else. so many here point the finger and yet so many here should have 500 fingers pointed back at them. live your life, fuck the naysayers! in the end, the naysayers will be living their miserable lives always worried about what this or that person is doing while never giving a second thought about what bs they're into.

[ashbeeigh]

sorry ashbeeigh but i don't tend to be an avid reader of fiction. the only fiction i read is here on ST. you can't get me to click a link that has "Sermons" in it.

this has nothing to do with you ashbeeigh just a rant... i can't believe so many people look down on others, others they don't even know personally, because these people are just wanting to live their lives happy and with no consequence to anyone else. so many here point the finger and yet so many here should have 500 fingers pointed back at them. live your life, fuck the naysayers! in the end, the naysayers will be living their miserable lives always worried about what this or that person is doing while never giving a second thought about what bs they're into.

If you ever feel like reading them, they're good. But that's cool and I feel exactly the same way. I have seen some people say that Leelah's parents are guilty of murder and not to pray for them and all this bullshit. I don't feel that way in the least. I do believe they are grieving the loss of their child and that they deserve prayers and thoughts and all that. Do I agree with them and how they handled Leelah? Naw. But I don't hate them or wish death on them or anything. Those that do, though, that's not cool.

[UZER]

sorry ashbeeigh but i don't tend to be an avid reader of fiction. the only fiction i read is here on ST. you can't get me to click a link that has "Sermons" in it.

this has nothing to do with you ashbeeigh just a rant... i can't believe so many people look down on others, others they don't even know personally, because these people are just wanting to live their lives happy and with no consequence to anyone else. so many here point the finger and yet so many here should have 500 fingers pointed back at them. live your life, fuck the naysayers! in the end, the naysayers will be living their miserable lives always worried about what this or that person is doing while never giving a second thought about what bs they're into.

Hey great point. Too bad that dude decided to off himself instead of just leaving unacceptable and hateful household.

[mouse]

And if this dude actually gave a shit about "trans rights" he would of chose to live. Live and fight for your cause. Fight for your rights.

How would one go about fighting for your cause?


Don't be a coward and take the easy way out.
What kind of example is that? If you're bullied for being different you should kill yourself? Fine example for all the other "transgender" youth out there.

You have to admitt putting up with the bullies may be the honorable thing to do but would anyone notice?

This act although cowardly by some at least made the news and has poeple talking.

Maybe something positive can come out of all this if anything many parents are now second guessing the way they treat thier own transsexual child.

[01Snake]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a2/a2aad0e239b24727622fad10255cf4c5691666caa00766665d 09ab0e60d02237.jpg

[apalisoc_9]

Well done, you seem to be getting it. Boy/girl is a social construct and Leelah did not fit into those boxes. And that's where society has gone wrong.


you can't be this retarded.

Can you?

[HI-FI]

I've been through my share of shitty or tough experiences, so it's hard for me to comprehend why this guy would kill himself because his parents wouldn't buy him a refurbished pussy. I guess everyone has their own reasons or excuses.

i also can't blame the parents because I personally am not a fan of the tranny movement. I consider myself tolerant to gays, but trannies unnerve me on some fundamental level, similar to clowns.

[Jacob1983]

None of you peckers got the Stepbrothers reference?

[Franklin]

The society has made a not-so-friendly atmosphere to those gays, trannies, or whoever are different from the majority mentally or physically. The truth is that we're used to discriminating against people who're different from us, we've invented supercomputers that can make trillions of floating point operations per second, but our brains pretty much remain the same. It's not anyone else's business to care about whether one wants to fuck a dick or pussy regardless of their own gender. Trannies might be disgusting to those people, but what disgusts me even more is the fact that some people tend to pay more attention to what other people have under their pants/panties between their legs. That's downright pathetic tbh, millions and millions of black kids are starving to death in Africa, and a common disease like flue may take thousands of lives there due to the lack of medicine. Meanwhile, in the US and other developed countries as well people would like to pay hundreds of thousands of bucks to make their boobs look bigger or their butts more plastic. I guess that if we can somehow extinguish, or at the very least alleviate the unfriendliness towards people who're different from us, those people would be less urgent to demand such surgeries and gradually accept what they are.

[Pauly D]

Holy crap, I'm not catching up on these past 40 posts but I do have a problem with "queer" and "asexual". The lack of conviction in something shouldn't get you included in a group of lifestyles and "queer" is just a meaningless, generic term

[Strange Love]

Holy crap, I'm not catching up on these past 40 posts but I do have a problem with "queer" and "asexual". The lack of conviction in something shouldn't get you included in a group of lifestyles and "queer" is just a meaningless, generic term

Shouldn't you be as far away from these types of discussions as possible?

I'm thinking necrophilia, pedophilia, rape, blood fetish and whatever else perverse shit you're into trumps liking it in the ass or wanting to be a girl.

Just saying.

[DJR210]

I've been through my share of shitty or tough experiences, so it's hard for me to comprehend why this guy would kill himself because his parents wouldn't buy him a refurbished pussy.

:lol

[Koolaid_Man]

It's disgusting to see so many people espouse self serving views.....if you're an atheist then you should really be ashamed of yourself for espousing any sense of morality as morals come from the Bible. Most of you act like gays anyway so whats the big deal.

[byrontx]

As long as someone is not harming anyone else why not just let them be? My 10 year seems to be quite straight but my love for him is unconditional.

[Koolaid_Man]

As long as someone is not harming anyone else why not just let them be? My 10 year seems to be quite straight but my love for him is unconditional.

Exactly....most here claim they hate or don't believe in god but then stand up for bible principles when it comes to this kind of stuff...lol go figure.

[Ginobilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJSl99HQYXc

[Slomo]

It's disgusting to see so many people espouse self serving views.....if you're an atheist then you should really be ashamed of yourself for espousing any sense of morality as morals come from the Bible. Most of you act like gays anyway so whats the big deal.

Nope. Morality is the result of self preservation and evolution of society. In short: Morale societies will thrive as opposed to non morale ones even in the absence of religion of any kind.

A good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Morality-Life-Mind-Philosophical/dp/0262600722

[Koolaid_Man]

Nope. Morality is the result of self preservation and evolution of society. In short: Morale societies will thrive as opposed to non morale ones even in the absence of religion of any kind.

A good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Morality-Life-Mind-Philosophical/dp/0262600722

I couldn't disagree more. Morality is the result of self righteous power hungry pricks like the ones in this thread who want legislate sex. I'm not saying I'm a tyranny lover but isn't it their right to love who they want. Societal morality is further based on jealousy and greed.

How do you explain war as morality based on self preservation. Alexander went conquering just for the hell of it for power and greed. I'm gonna get you before you get me mentality...it's not moral at all its pure self service. Think like me do as I do or you will be ostracized and hated by all...even killed by those you don't like your nonconforming. That's it and that's all...

Moral societies thrive because everyone is a fucking hypocritical. ...they do their dirt under the cover of darkness. ..you couldn't convince me that M> s, Besteva, DMC, CosmicCowboy, and Spurraider don't take it up the ass...but they gleefully sit in judgement of others. Just like all those gay KKK guys who hate others but it's later found out they secretly take it up the ass.

I think it's laughable you can not believe in god but want to legislate someone's sex life. If you believe evolution is true then you should believe all things that don't infringe upon the rights of other people. In short if you are an atheist you should welcome gays and tyranny lovers as your brothers with open arms......lol real talk Slomo

[Slomo]

I couldn't disagree more. Morality is the result of self righteous power hungry pricks like the ones in this thread who want legislate sex. I'm not saying I'm a tyranny lover but isn't it their right to love who they want. Societal morality is further based on jealousy and greed.

How do you explain war as morality based on self preservation. Alexander went conquering just for the hell of it for power and greed. I'm gonna get you before you get me mentality...it's not moral at all its pure self service. Think like me do as I do or you will be ostracized and hated by all...even killed by those you don't like your nonconforming. That's it and that's all...

Moral societies thrive because everyone is a fucking hypocritical. ...they do their dirt under the cover of darkness. ..you couldn't convince me that M> s, Besteva, DMC, CosmicCowboy, and Spurraider don't take it up the ass...but they gleefully sit in judgement of others. Just like all those gay KKK guys who hate others but it's later found out they secretly take it up the ass.

I think it's laughable you can not believe in god but want to legislate someone's sex life. If you believe evolution is true then you should believe all things that don't infringe upon the rights of other people. In short if you are an atheist you should welcome gays and tyranny lovers as your brothers with open arms......lol real talk Slomo

Nothing above is anything more than your opinions - which you're entitled to have, just not allowed to present them as facts.

None of your examples disprove my point - actually the Alexandre example proves it (how long did his model of society survive?).

The other examples actually have nothing to do with the point I am making which is that succesful and long lasting societies will have a clearly defined morale code even in the absence of any religion (and specifiacally in the absence of Christianity). Which contradicts your position that morals only come from the Bible.

As for the hipocrisy in this thread, it's hardly surprising.

[Koolaid_Man]

Nothing above is anything more than your opinions - which you're entitled to have, just not allowed to present them as facts.

None of your examples disprove my point - actually the Alexandre example proves it (how long did his model of society survive?).

The other examples actually have nothing to do with the point I am making which is that succesful and long lasting societies will have a clearly defined morale code even in the absence of any religion (and specifiacally in the absence of Christianity). Which contradicts your position that morals only come from the Bible.

As for the hipocrisy in this thread, it's hardly surprising.

I have my opinions and you have your OPINIONS. Name for me a society with a moral code devoid of religion. Fact is you cannot name one. Not now nor in the history of mankind can you name one. Morality in all societies is based on religion which is "God Inspired". Even sucide bombers base their morality on religion. Stop trying in vain to decouple them. Again you cannot beleive in evolution and be against these lifestyle's on the biblical or should i say religious basis of morality.

Its pretty simple for those who arent closed minded and think they know everything.

[Dirk Oneanddoneski]

Ashbeeigh are you on Tumblr?

[ashbeeigh]

Ashbeeigh are you on Tumblr?

I have one but never update it.

[Slomo]

I have my opinions and you have your OPINIONS. Name for me a society with a moral code devoid of religion. Fact is you cannot name one. Not now nor in the history of mankind can you name one. Morality in all societies is based on religion which is "God Inspired". Even sucide bombers base their morality on religion. Stop trying in vain to decouple them. Again you cannot beleive in evolution and be against these lifestyle's on the biblical or should i say religious basis of morality.

Its pretty simple for those who arent closed minded and think they know everything.


Funny because you are being quite closed minded about it.

I never disputed that religion can be the catalyst for moral behaviour, but I disagree to your point that it is the only source of morality (and even more that the Bible is the only source).

I have given you a link to a book that deals with exactly the questions that you are asking. The book is a scientific treaty that presents it's finding very well - you might disagree with it, but it certainly opens the door for intelligent societies (humans) to develop and promote a healthy moral code based on self preservation and growth and not religious rules.
But I must say I doubt you understand what morality is when you are trying to introduce religious suicide bombers into the debate. I agree that they are doing it for their religious beliefs, but their acts are the antithesis of morality. Or to put it differently because something is endorsed by a religious organization (or religion) it doesn't automatically make it moral.

If you are open minded and genuinely interested read the book

or don't.

[The Reckoning]

reciprocal altruism

/thread

[angrydude]

LOL this has nothing to do with religion.

This has to do with an emotional unbalanced depressed teen who probably had shitbag parents.

If he didn't kill himself over wanting to be a woman he'd have killed himself over something else.

[Pauly D]

Shouldn't you be as far away from these types of discussions as possible?

I'm thinking necrophilia, pedophilia, rape, blood fetish and whatever else perverse shit you're into trumps liking it in the ass or wanting to be a girl.

Just saying.

I swear yall add in a new thing every time. Rape/bondage and young girls (NOT children) are all yall have gotten right

[DJR210]

I swear yall add in a new thing every time. Rape/bondage and young girls (NOT children) are all yall have gotten right

Add asphyxiation to the list of perversions.

[Strange Love]

Add asphyxiation to the list of perversions.

:lol

Damn, I forgot that one.

[Koolaid_Man]

Funny because you are being quite closed minded about it.

I never disputed that religion can be the catalyst for moral behaviour, but I disagree to your point that it is the only source of morality (and even more that the Bible is the only source).

I have given you a link to a book that deals with exactly the questions that you are asking. The book is a scientific treaty that presents it's finding very well - you might disagree with it, but it certainly opens the door for intelligent societies (humans) to develop and promote a healthy moral code based on self preservation and growth and not religious rules.
But I must say I doubt you understand what morality is when you are trying to introduce religious suicide bombers into the debate. I agree that they are doing it for their religious beliefs, but their acts are the antithesis of morality. Or to put it differently because something is endorsed by a religious organization (or religion) it doesn't automatically make it moral.

If you are open minded and genuinely interested read the book

or don't.

I will read your book...which is like Cryptonite for me as a black man....if I find it lacking intellectually we're gonna have a little sit down discussion....:hat

[Pauly D]

Add asphyxiation to the list of perversions.


:lol

Damn, I forgot that one.

Believe it or not, no, despite it being a big part of many rape porn vids. I'm not into torture, choking, or snuff

[DMC]

Are you a parent? It doesn't sound like it. I'm not either, but I do know plenty of them and work with some pretty rowdy out of control kids daily at work. From what I have learned from those experiences is that parents should love their kids unconditionally, no if ands or buts about it, and that includes if they don't agree with you. You, as a parent, may not want them in your home or not talk to them regularly because you don't agree with their views, but you still love them. A parent should be wiling to listen to their children and that's what Leelah's parents did not do, which, in my mind, is unacceptable and hateful.

Stopped reading after that. Why ask that question if it's not pertinent? You're not, but you somehow feel that parenting knowledge was given to you inductively? You don't choose to love unconditionally. You love unconditionally by default, but tolerance and love are separate things and no, lack of tolerance doesn't indicate lack of love.

[Chinook]

What happened to just accepting that some people are assholes and moving on? Dude(tte) doesn't deserve praise for killing himself over his parents not accepting him. Just another entitled loser. I'm telling you right now that I wouldn't pay for my kid's sexual reassignment surgery. Wouldn't even consider it. That's the type of thing you don't get to come back from, and a teen's not really in position to understand that. It's my job to make sure they are intact for 17-21 years, and I'm damned-sure not spending thousands of dollars on that sort of mutilation. I'd much rather make them hate me and be sure of what they're doing than for them to love me and regret their decision later.

I don't think this case demonstrates what's wrong with society's gender dichotomy. If anything, it highlights what's wrong with that kid's view. Gender is supposedly an abstract concept that is antiquated, but this bro felt so strongly about his gender that he wanted to change his sex to better identify with it. How in the world does that help the LGBT (forget that QA crap) stance? Dude didn't want to be a woman; he wanted to be female, which simply wasn't going to happen.

Unless some real gnarly stuff comes out that his parents did to him, I don't feel sorry for one bit. Damned shame that people rally behind self-indulgent people like this kid.

[RD2191]

Chinook putting the mother fucking truth hammer down.

[Pauly D]

ouch. DMC and Chinook just /thread'ed this thread

I mean, I basically said the same things a few days ago but still. Great posts

[Cry Havoc]

I don't think this case demonstrates what's wrong with society's gender dichotomy. If anything, it highlights what's wrong with that kid's view. Gender is supposedly an abstract concept that is antiquated, but this bro felt so strongly about his gender that he wanted to change his sex to better identify with it. How in the world does that help the LGBT (forget that QA crap) stance? Dude didn't want to be a woman; he wanted to be female, which simply wasn't going to happen.

Because gender identity is fluid. We have a pretty solid basis of scientific evidence for this now. It doesn't mean you have to be in the middle, but it doesn't mean you have to be on the extremes, either.

[Chinook]

Because gender identity is fluid. We have a pretty solid basis of scientific evidence for this now. It doesn't mean you have to be in the middle, but it doesn't mean you have to be on the extremes, either.

That just underscores what I said. The kid wanted to go from one extreme to another. It's not like he wanted to be in the middle, and people made him pick.

[Cry Havoc]

That just underscores what I said. The kid wanted to go from one extreme to another. It's not like he wanted to be in the middle, and people made him pick.

And as I said, it's fluid. Some (perhaps even most) people do find themselves closer to one edge of the spectrum. Why is that harder to believe or accept than if this individual identified as both male and female (i.e., "in the middle")?

[Chinook]

And as I said, it's fluid. Some (perhaps even most) people do find themselves closer to one edge of the spectrum. Why is that harder to believe or accept than if this individual identified as both male and female (i.e., "in the middle")?

Again, underscores what I'm saying. The problem wasn't that society believed in extremes; it was that the boy did. He was the one who didn't accept who he was and wanted surgery to make him feel better. He was the one who killed himself in protest of his parents' actions. This is on him and his self-centered belief system. Society just has to pick up the pieces.

[Cry Havoc]

Again, underscores what I'm saying. The problem wasn't that society believed in extremes; it was that the boy did. He was the one who didn't accept who he was and wanted surgery to make him feel better. He was the one who killed himself in protest of his parents' actions. This is on him and his self-centered belief system. Society just has to pick up the pieces.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. The person in question identified as female and was attempting to take steps to be recognized as such. We have a lot of data about the brain that suggests that there is a large biological component to individuals who feels this way, as in, it's not just some passing notion she had that made her want to change her identity, but that we have hard data to show the brain is functioning in such a way. It's society's belief that gender and sexual identity are the same thing and not variable or able to be changed in any way that causes the friction here.

[Chinook]

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. The person in question identified as female and was attempting to take steps to be recognized as such. We have a lot of data about the brain that suggests that there is a large biological component to individuals who feels this way. It's society's belief that gender and sexual identity are the same thing and not variable or able to be changed in any way that causes the friction here.

I think you just feel like people who don't agree with you are ignorant and that they dismiss the science. This nothing to do with any of that. A boy couldn't accept who he was (a physical male who was psychologically more of a woman) and wanted to have surgery to better align his body to his self-image. That he wanted to do that was his problem, not society's. He couldn't wait a year until he could do whatever he wanted to his body, decided to kill himself in one of the most selfish ways possible and then make himself seem like a victim. Dude was messed up mentally, and being transgendered was not even close to his biggest issue.

[DMC]

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. The person in question identified as female and was attempting to take steps to be recognized as such. We have a lot of data about the brain that suggests that there is a large biological component to individuals who feels this way, as in, it's not just some passing notion she had that made her want to change her identity, but that we have hard data to show the brain is functioning in such a way. It's society's belief that gender and sexual identity are the same thing and not variable or able to be changed in any way that causes the friction here.
What if he identified as a frog? I guess he just hops on down to the aquarium and they have to accept him, else he croaks himself.

[Pauly D]

What if he identified as a frog? I guess he just hops on down to the aquarium and they have to accept him, else he croaks himself.

No pun intended!!! RIGHT?!!!!! Haha we kid

[sandman]

I think the surgery played a small part in this, it's the lack of acceptance and hateful attempts to set her straight is what, I believe played the largest part in her death.

Another thing to note is that transgender is not a phase. It's not teenage rebellion, which you seem to characterize it as.

Nor can you say with certainty that it wasn't a phase or a form of teenage rebellion.

As a parent of teenagers, I can say that "phases" with kids in high school these days are getting more and more extreme. Not saying that every kid in high school who says they are gay is doing it for attention, but there are a lot of kids doing it for attention. Some are passive-aggressively reacting to a home situation that is not supportive on many levels. Some are fringe kids taking the "I'm not part of the rich cool crowd" to the next shock level. Some are taking advantage of the social celebrity status. And all of this hurts the teenagers who are actually gay and want to be seen as just normal kids and keep the private things where the private things should be. Private is not the same as scared to come out of the closet. Not everyone wants to be the voice or the face of a "movement". Despite what social media seems to shove down our throats, not every gay teenager wants to turn a walk down the hallway between classes into a Gay Parade.

In his senior year, my son had one of his friends commit suicide. Yes, he was gay. But he was also very socially awkward and was easily on the autism/aspergers spectrum. No one can point to any external incidents or patterns at school or at home related to him being gay that drove him to kill himself. He had very supportive parents. He was fighting some battle in his head and lost. But the narrative was that he killed himself because he was gay, because being gay HAD to be the only reason he would kill himself. This is the only narrative we are allowed to have when it comes to bad things happening to teenagers who happen to be gay.

As a parent of teenagers again, I need to support my kids. But supporting my kids doesn't mean doubling down on every "decision" they make in their lives. Sometimes the best way to support them is to not let them act on decisions that they may regret down the road. My job as a parent is not fulfill every desire that my child has; in fact, enablement is a classic form of bad parenting. This is not to say that every action and attitude taken by these specific parents was right or wrong. But if my son came to me at 17 and said he wanted me to fund his transgender process to become my daughter, I would have refused as well. That is a forever life-altering decision that needs to be made with a bit more maturity and a lot less teenage high school social angst. And there is nothing wrong with me refusing to do this. Nor is there anything wrong with thinking it is wrong. I don't have to accept everything that my kids do just because they are my kids. Again, loving my kids doesn't equate to enabling every desire that they have.

This extreme and unfortunate situation is what drives a very false narrative that all gay teens are "loud and proud" and all of their Christian parents are praying the gay out of them. The exception gets championed as the norm, and the internets get full of debates about horrible parents who don't fund transgender operations for their boys who are not of legal age to make those decisions for themselves.

[Blake]

What's scary is that most people would agree with her. That's society for you. Makes me believe in the Bible even more, tbh. Having nothing to do with you or anything just my beliefs.

:lol rob

[Cry Havoc]

Nor can you say with certainty that it wasn't a phase or a form of teenage rebellion.

As a parent of teenagers, I can say that "phases" with kids in high school these days are getting more and more extreme. Not saying that every kid in high school who says they are gay is doing it for attention, but there are a lot of kids doing it for attention. Some are passive-aggressively reacting to a home situation that is not supportive on many levels. Some are fringe kids taking the "I'm not part of the rich cool crowd" to the next shock level. Some are taking advantage of the social celebrity status. And all of this hurts the teenagers who are actually gay and want to be seen as just normal kids and keep the private things where the private things should be. Private is not the same as scared to come out of the closet. Not everyone wants to be the voice or the face of a "movement". Despite what social media seems to shove down our throats, not every gay teenager wants to turn a walk down the hallway between classes into a Gay Parade.

In his senior year, my son had one of his friends commit suicide. Yes, he was gay. But he was also very socially awkward and was easily on the autism/aspergers spectrum. No one can point to any external incidents or patterns at school or at home related to him being gay that drove him to kill himself. He had very supportive parents. He was fighting some battle in his head and lost. But the narrative was that he killed himself because he was gay, because being gay HAD to be the only reason he would kill himself. This is the only narrative we are allowed to have when it comes to bad things happening to teenagers who happen to be gay.

As a parent of teenagers again, I need to support my kids. But supporting my kids doesn't mean doubling down on every "decision" they make in their lives. Sometimes the best way to support them is to not let them act on decisions that they may regret down the road. My job as a parent is not fulfill every desire that my child has; in fact, enablement is a classic form of bad parenting. This is not to say that every action and attitude taken by these specific parents was right or wrong. But if my son came to me at 17 and said he wanted me to fund his transgender process to become my daughter, I would have refused as well. That is a forever life-altering decision that needs to be made with a bit more maturity and a lot less teenage high school social angst. And there is nothing wrong with me refusing to do this. Nor is there anything wrong with thinking it is wrong. I don't have to accept everything that my kids do just because they are my kids. Again, loving my kids doesn't equate to enabling every desire that they have.

This extreme and unfortunate situation is what drives a very false narrative that all gay teens are "loud and proud" and all of their Christian parents are praying the gay out of them. The exception gets championed as the norm, and the internets get full of debates about horrible parents who don't fund transgender operations for their boys who are not of legal age to make those decisions for themselves.

That's why it's your job to parent and make a parental decision about your teen's feelings. If your teenager, for instance, had talked for 10 years about wanting to be a firefighter, or wanting to be a chef, and they involved in activities to continually pursue that dream, then I think you would do your child a world of harm to treat it like a phase.

Similarly, if your child says they've felt differently than they should since they were 4, continually acts in a way that is not of the norm for their physical sexual characteristics, and actively pursues ways to make themselves appear more feminine (such as we see in this case), then all the hand-waving about it being a phase is probably you being unrealistic as a parent.

This also illustrates the need for counseling and therapy for youth who are in distress. If your child is routinely acting out, routinely engaging in dangerous behaviors and remains defiant/obstinate to their own detriment, then it's probably them trying to tell you that they're struggling a great deal to get a handle on their life. Being gay might not be the only reason a child kills themselves, but being gay and/or trans can have a massively negative impact on their self-esteem and self-image, especially given how difficult that situation is for a lot of the older generations to accept. You definitely shouldn't be an enabler of negative behavior, but you SHOULD as a parent know when your child is absolutely serious down to their core about something.

[ClipperLuva]

Time for an exorcism imo. The power of Christ compels you..

[sandman]

That's why it's your job to parent and make a parental decision about your teen's feelings. If your teenager, for instance, had talked for 10 years about wanting to be a firefighter, or wanting to be a chef, and they involved in activities to continually pursue that dream, then I think you would do your child a world of harm to treat it like a phase.

Similarly, if your child says they've felt differently than they should since they were 4, continually acts in a way that is not of the norm for their physical sexual characteristics, and actively pursues ways to make themselves appear more feminine (such as we see in this case), then all the hand-waving about it being a phase is probably you being unrealistic as a parent.

This also illustrates the need for counseling and therapy for youth who are in distress. If your child is routinely acting out, routinely engaging in dangerous behaviors and remains defiant/obstinate to their own detriment, then it's probably them trying to tell you that they're struggling a great deal to get a handle on their life. Being gay might not be the only reason a child kills themselves, but being gay and/or trans can have a massively negative impact on their self-esteem and self-image, especially given how difficult that situation is for a lot of the older generations to accept. You definitely shouldn't be an enabler of negative behavior, but you SHOULD as a parent know when your child is absolutely serious down to their core about something.

I can promise you that I have had much more involvement in being a Christian parent with a gay teenager than you have, so I don't need a sermon about what I am supposed to do as a parent. High school kids killing themselves because their parent won't fund their sex-change operation is an extreme example of the whole "gay teen with unsupportive parents" stereotype and simply not worth a debate.

[Jacob1983]

Why should the parents have to foot the bill for that shit? Is it life threatening? A sex change operation is like getting butt or boob implants or botox. It's not vital to your life. And don't give me any bullshit. Your brain and heart aren't going to stop working because you don't look like the gender you want to be.

[DJR210]

:lol

http://img.s-msn.com/tenant/amp/entityid/AA8cNjL.img?h=512&w=378&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=274&y=187

[Blake]

Who's the chick in the bottom left?

[cantthinkofanything]

Who's the chick in the bottom left?

http://www.trbimg.com/img-54ac6bbd/turbine/la-et-mg-teen-mom-farrah-abraham-botched-plastic-surgery-lips-20150106

[Blake]

Ohhhhh.



Still have no clue.

[cantthinkofanything]

Ohhhhh.



Still have no clue.

her plastic surgery fucked up

[Blake]

Ohhhhh.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1371533!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/farrah-abraham.jpg

No, still don't know what she's famous for

[DJR210]

Who's the chick in the bottom left?

Backdoor teen mom, Farrah Abraham


No, still don't know what she's famous for

Taking James Deen's dick up the butt and being one of the stupidest, most delusional human beings alive.

[DJR210]

She does have a nice, roast beefy pussy though.

[ohmwrecker]

She was working at a strip club here in Austin for a while.

[DJR210]

She was working at a strip club here in Austin for a while.

Yeah, she's a full blown skank now. She has molds of her pussy and all kinds of shit for sale too.

[ashbeeigh]

She let her fucking mother take custody of her daughter because her daughter "needed some me time." She is fucking horrible.

[DJR210]

She let her fucking mother take custody of her daughter because her daughter "needed some me time." She is fucking horrible.

:lol deadbeat
:lol "me time"
:lol "doesn't do porn"
:lol stripping a part of her "research"

Signed a million dollar deal for her first porn, probably made half of that on her 2nd one and all the sex toys and dancing, but doesn't have the means to take care of her daughter and balance her career?

She got destroyed on that celebrity couples reunion show a while back, shit was funny.

[ashbeeigh]

:lol deadbeat
:lol "me time"
:lol "doesn't do porn"
:lol stripping a part of her "research"

Signed a million dollar deal for her first porn, probably made half of that on her 2nd one and all the sex toys and dancing, but doesn't have the means to take care of her daughter and balance her career?

She got destroyed on that celebrity couples reunion show a while back, shit was funny.

All the girls from Teen Mom are a mess, but at least Leah knows she's a hot mess. Farrah thinks this shit is cute. If I ever came across her in Austin I'd punch her in her fat fucking lips.

[DJR210]

If I ever came across her in Austin I'd punch her in her fat fucking lips.

Bet..she works at the Palazio

[Strange Love]

Bet..she works at the Palazio

Bro...you watch this teen mom shit? :lol

[DJR210]

Bro...you watch this teen mom shit? :lol

Yeah, Backdoor Teen Mom.

[DMC]

Male/female roles are not culturally defined exclusively. You're putting the cart before the horse. Male/female are naturally defined and as such, cultures have adopted to nature's limitations. The man cannot get pregnant, that's not a cultural issue. The woman cannot hunt down game or defend the camp. That's not a cultural issue. Women are naturally weaker than men in many ways, and they are more emotionally unstable for various reasons. That's a natural construct, not a cultural one. Pretending a woman can be a man and vice versa is the cultural construct.

[I. Hustle]

:corn:

[Chinook]

I was just thinking about this situation, actually. I do wonder if the reaction would be different had this happened now. I know that it was just a year-and-a-half ago or whatever, but a lot has changed in terms of LGBT rights/protections since then. Still think that kid was selfish and doesn't deserve to be remembered as anything else by the general public.

[Spurminator]

I was just thinking about this situation, actually. I do wonder if the reaction would be different had this happened now. I know that it was just a year-and-a-half ago or whatever, but a lot has changed in terms of LGBT rights/protections since then. Still think that kid was selfish and doesn't deserve to be remembered as anything else by the general public.

Yeah, it's still super shitty that the parents got harassed.