Obummer: "Free" College for Everyone!

[Clipper Nation]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/01/08/obama-free-community-college/21466969/

Translation: Obummer wants to gouge the taxpayers for a watered-down college "education" from the same people who ruined K-12 schools.

[Nbadan]

There are worse ways to spend 75 billion per...but the costs will spike without price regulation...

[Spur-Addict]

Continuing the trend of college degrees becoming more and more worthless.

[Nbadan]

Higher Education is a crap shoot with the odds in your favor....not a cure all...

[scanry]

America needs more doctors, engineers & high school teachers tbh. The MCATs are so cutthroat and hard that people go abroad for their med school. With all that time, they begin preparing for the USMLEs (residency exam) from the first year of their med school itself.

It's good to be a doctor though. Thebesteva is the only poor doctor (atleast he pretends to be) that i know. I'm pretty sure he's wetting himself at night thinking of the day he'll delivery of a Porsche 911. The 911 is all doctors think of once they finish residency tbh.

[ElNono]

sucks it's only two years... and if States have to chip in, forget about it... the plan should also include more funding and support for vocational schools, too

[SnakeBoy]

"Community colleges have to raise their game by establishing standards to allow students to transfer those credits to a four-year degree,"

That will pretty much flunk out 75% of the people who spend 2 years at community colleges.

[Blake]

It's free yet the government only pays for 3/4 of it.

Community college math smh

[SnakeBoy]

sucks it's only two years... and if States have to chip in, forget about it... the plan should also include more funding and support for vocational schools, too

The people I know who went to vocational schools are more successful than the ones who got a 2 year degree from community colleges.

[Blake]

The people I know who went to vocational schools are more successful than the ones who got a 2 year degree from community colleges.

Troof imo.

[ElNono]

The people I know who went to vocational schools are more successful than the ones who got a 2 year degree from community colleges.

Varies by people, tbh...

Access to education is one area where I don't have a problem with government spending. Especially with the BS tuition prices...

[angrydude]

Community college is already practically free if you go locally.

It's a waste of time and money since most community college classes are jokes. If you haven't learned how to read and write by then you never will.

Any class you took you wanted to "transfer" to a four year college for a degree (like calculus) you'd probably have to take over anyway.

It's worth it if you are already smart but underachieving. You go there, get A's, and transfer somewhere else.

[Nbadan]

It's a waste of time and money since most community college classes are jokes. If you haven't learned how to read and write by then you never will.

Not true.,,,thanks to the way public education is funded in Texas those who need the most help always get the least...

[Nbadan]

Any class you took you wanted to "transfer" to a four year college for a degree (like calculus) you'd probably have to take over anyway.

Most majors only require Algebra 2....which I think can be taught at a community college..

[baseline bum]

Most majors only require Algebra 2....

That's fucking sad.

[SnakeBoy]

Varies by people, tbh...

Access to education is one area where I don't have a problem with government spending. Especially with the BS tuition prices...

I'm sure there is truth to that but comparing what a community college offers versus a vocational school I'd say the vocational school does a better job of preparing someone to actually get a job. The SAC program just seems like a prep program to go onto a 4 year degree which is a waste of time for someone who already decided not to pursue a 4 year degree for whatever reason.


San Antonio College
Associate of Science, concentration in Computer Science
This Associate of Science degree prepares students for entry-level positions as software developers.

Degree Requirements (Total Credit Hours 65)
Communication (10) Core – 2 courses (6 credit hours)
•ENGL 1301 - Composition I
•ENGL 1302 - Composition II
Additional Communication (11) Core – 1 course (3 credit hours)
Select 1 course from the Additional Communication (11) Core
Mathematics (20) Core – 1 course (4 credit hours)
•MATH 2412 - Precalculus
Natural Sciences (30) Core – 2 courses (8 credit hours)
•PHYS 2425 - University Physics I
•PHYS 2426 - University Physics II
Humanities (40) Core – 1 course (3 credit hours)
Select 1 course from the Humanities (40) Core
Additional Humanities (41) Core – 1 course (3 credit hours)
Select 1 course from the Additional Humanities (41) Core
Visual and Performing Arts (50) Core – 1 course (3 credit hours)
Select 1 course from the Visual and Performing Arts (50) Core
History (60) Core – 2 courses (6 credit hours)
Select 2 courses from the History (60) Core
Government (70) Core – 2 courses (6 credit hours)
•GOVT 2305 - Federal Government
•GOVT 2306 - Texas Government
Social and Behavioral Sciences (80) Core – 1 course (3 credit hours)
Select 1 course from the Social and Behavioral Sciences (80) Core
Additional Requirements (20 credit hours)
•COSC 1336 - Programming Fundamentals I
•COSC 1337 - Programming Fundamentals II
•COSC 2325 - Computer Organization and Machine Language
•COSC 2336 - Programming Fundamentals III
•MATH 2413 - Calculus I
•MATH 2414 - Calculus II



ITT
Software Development: A 7-Quarter Associate of Applied Science Degree Program
San Antonio, TX Campus
Course Number Course Quarter Credit Hours Scheduled Units of Course Time of Classes

General Education Courses
CO2520T Communications 4.5 54
EN1320T Composition I 4.5 67
EN1420T Composition II 4.5 54
MA1210T College Mathematics I 4.5 54
MA1310T College Mathematics II 4.5 54
SP2750T Group Theory 4.5 54
Subtotal 27.0 337


Core Courses
NT1110T Computer Structure and Logic 4.5 67
PT1420T Introduction to Programming 4.5 67
SD1230T Introduction to Application Design and Development 4.5 67
SD1240T Creating Websites Using HTML and CSS 4.5 67
SD1340T Creating Websites Using HTML5, CSS3 and JavaScript 4.5 67
SD1420T Introduction to Java Programming 4.5 67
SD1430T Introduction to Mobile Operating Systems 4.5 67
SD2520T Introduction to Database and XML with jQuery 4.5 67
SD2550T Application Development Using Java I 4.5 67
SD2650T Application Development Using Java II 4.5 67
SD2670T Social Networking Applications and Technology 4.5 67
SD2799T Software Development Capstone Project 4.5 72
Subtotal 54.0 809


Elective Courses
---------- Unspecified Elective course* 3.0 48


General Studies Courses
GS1140T Problem Solving Theory 4.5 54
GS1145T Strategies for the Technical Professional 4.5 67
Subtotal 9.0 121



Program Total 93.0

[Nbadan]

That's fucking sad.

Hell, even doctors only take up to Cal 1....I used to tutor them and they sucked...

[Drachen]

I'm sure there is truth to that but comparing what a community college offers versus a vocational school I'd say the vocational school does a better job of preparing someone to actually get a job. The SAC program just seems like a prep program to go onto a 4 year degree which is a waste of time for someone who already decided not to pursue a 4 year degree for whatever reason.

I'm sorry, having worked in the for profit education industry, please don't compare ITT to any real school. Substandard rigor + 52k for an associates would like to say hi.

[Drachen]

Also, you can learn vocational trades at CC. For example, Accd has hvac certifications (among others).

[CosmicCowboy]

That will pretty much flunk out 75% of the people who spend 2 years at community colleges.

Sad but true. A lot of community college curriculum is devoted to re-teaching the shit they were supposed to learn in K-12.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sad but true. A lot of community college curriculum is devoted to re-teaching the shit they were supposed to learn in K-12.

On the other hand, there are some courses at the local community colleges are = to the hardest 4 year schools. I took a Chemistry for Science and Engineers class at UTSA as an adult for fun and got to be friends with the professor. He also taught Chemistry at SAC. He got great joy from the kids from A&M and Texas etc. who tried to take his chemistry class in the summertime thinking it would be "easier" than the one at their "good" school.

[DarrinS]

Maybe it's because I'm a parent, but this seems like a good thing to me.

[boutons_deux]

Repugs will of course do everything they can to kill any pro-99% program.

[boutons_deux]

Sad but true. A lot of community college curriculum is devoted to re-teaching the shit they were supposed to learn in K-12.

somehow, America got pretty damn far on tax-payer, no-profit K-12 schooling. You mofo's who say K12 sucks have been suckered by BigCorp and 1% who see taxpayers' $Ts for K12 in THEIR bank accounts and who have been trashing, killing K12 teachers, unions as Dem voters, contributors.

y'all beloved no-profit charter schools often out-source their entire operations to for-profit contractors, which was the scam all along.

btw, the new NATIONAL GED aligned with the Common Core is being trashed, resisted because it's "too hard", so some states, esp red states (right to be dumb and right to work for less) have set up their own EASIER GED so their dumbfucks can LIE that they have "useful" HS equiv diploma.

[CosmicCowboy]

somehow, America got pretty damn far on tax-payer, no-profit K-12 schooling. You mofo's who say K12 sucks have been suckered by BigCorp and 1% who see taxpayers' $Ts for K12 in THEIR bank accounts and who have been trashing, killing K12 teachers, unions as Dem voters, contributors.

y'all beloved no-profit charter schools often out-source their entire operations to for-profit contractors, which was the scam all along.

btw, the new NATIONAL GED aligned with the Common Core is being trashed, resisted because it's "too hard", so some states, esp red states (right to be dumb and right to work for less) have set up their own EASIER GED so their dumbfucks can LIE that they have "useful" HS equiv diploma.

You are a stupid fuck.

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap.shtml

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap_fig1.jpg

[ElNono]

I'm sure there is truth to that but comparing what a community college offers versus a vocational school I'd say the vocational school does a better job of preparing someone to actually get a job. The SAC program just seems like a prep program to go onto a 4 year degree which is a waste of time for someone who already decided not to pursue a 4 year degree for whatever reason.

I think that's the main thing... people that get deep in debt for a 4 year degree, but 2 years into it realize it's not what they really want, but don't want to get out and pursue something else because they're already too indebted to back out. I think this is where this program could help.

I agree that vocational school probably prepares you better for specific jobs, but that's why I pointed out that I was hoping there would be some additional funding there: government support for vocational schools have been dwindling down for quite a while now.

[boutons_deux]

You are a stupid fuck.

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/college_readiness/gap_fig1.jpg

I didn't say K12 was failing to teach and prepare for jobs and college. I said K12 has been good enough, and scamming charter schools, almost a total failure, aren't the solution to anything except enriching BigCorp and 1% who don't GAF about education, just like Christian schools priority is indoctrination in Bible bullshit, NOT in general education.

I remember some guy getting a huge laugh on a late night show, Carson?, a LONG TIME AGO, where he said the education reformers were extremely pleased that they had wondrously SUCEEDED in getting college freshman up to FUCKING 8TH GRADE level in math and English.

and you right wingers, following VERBATIM the VRWC dictation, lay the ENTIRE blame for schools not teaching well on teachers, whom you REFUSE to pay well and don't demand high teaching standards.

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/01/09/americas-best-and-worst-school-systems/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2FRyNm+%2824%2F7+Wall +St.%29

[angrydude]

America would be better off getting off it's fascination with school and getting fascinated with on the job training. It's all you need--unless you can't read or write. In which case community college isn't going to help you.

[ElNono]

America would be better off getting off it's fascination with school and getting fascinated with on the job training. It's all you need--unless you can't read or write. In which case community college isn't going to help you.

Don't disagree, but a lot of job postings demand that you have a degree, and the general impression is that employers don't really want to spend the necessary time and money training employees.

[boutons_deux]

America would be better off getting off it's fascination with school and getting fascinated with on the job training. It's all you need--unless you can't read or write. In which case community college isn't going to help you.

The Germans have been huge believers and implementers of very SUCCESSFUL vocational/on-the-job training for a long time. Of course, the employers have to play along, and they do.

America's general snobbism about voc school vs academic college as THE ONLY WAY UP probably kills America doing the German way.

[boutons_deux]

btw, if Obama's "free" community college flies, you can be DAMN SURE the Repug/red states won't chip in their 25%, which would kill it in red states. Repug/red states ALWAYS fuck their citizens.

[tlongII]

The problem with K-12 education is in the ridiculous cost of the administration. I'm all for paying teachers, but the administration cost is ridiculous. It's just another example of fat, inefficient government bureaucracy with guaranteed, over-inflated wages.

[boutons_deux]

The problem with K-12 education is in the ridiculous cost of the administration. I'm all for paying teachers, but the administration cost is ridiculous. It's just another example of fat, inefficient government bureaucracy with guaranteed, over-inflated wages.

yes, k12 admin overhead is apparently very high, and many of the administrators have never been teachers.

[SnakeBoy]

Maybe it's because I'm a parent, but this seems like a good thing to me.

It's probably not, never going to happen anyway.

[CosmicCowboy]

Basically it just creates K-14. Sadly, it does nothing to address the actual cost of "higher" education which has risen at more than double the inflation rate for decades. The price increases were driven by "easy money" student loans which are now killing the recipients of the bloated cost degrees they purchased.

[boutons_deux]

Basically it just creates K-14. Sadly, it does nothing to address the actual cost of "higher" education which has risen at more than double the inflation rate for decades. The price increases were driven by "easy money" student loans which are now killing the recipients of the bloated cost degrees they purchased.

there is also the very strong fuckup of managing schools, colleges as "corporations". The corporate model just sucks in so many ways, eg, shittiest possible (education) product for the highest possible price. plus the idea that school admin, having never taught, as "business managers", can set classroom policies.

[CosmicCowboy]

there is also the very strong fuckup of managing schools, colleges as "corporations". The corporate model just sucks in so many ways, eg, shittiest possible (education) product for the highest possible price. plus the idea that school admin, having never taught, as "business managers", can set classroom policies.

Clearly something was very fucked up with YOUR education.

[angrydude]

Don't disagree, but a lot of job postings demand that you have a degree, and the general impression is that employers don't really want to spend the necessary time and money training employees.

Only because of the stupid rigid all or nothing culture in this country.

[ElNono]

They won't touch the BS government backed loans that are the main part of private colleges' gravy train... too much money at stake there... which is another reason why this won't be generally effective...

[boutons_deux]

Clearly something was very fucked up with YOUR education.

CC :lol joins TB :lol on The Great Boutons' stalker team. :lol

[RandomGuy]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/01/08/obama-free-community-college/21466969/

Translation: Obummer wants to gouge the taxpayers for a watered-down college "education" from the same people who ruined K-12 schools.

We should be spending far more on it.

Our schools are just fine, despite the scaremongering.

Not great, but not as bad as many like to think. The Outrage Machine makes more money by playing up the faults and ignoring the good parts.

[RandomGuy]

there is also the very strong fuckup of managing schools, colleges as "corporations". The corporate model just sucks in so many ways, eg, shittiest possible (education) product for the highest possible price. plus the idea that school admin, having never taught, as "business managers", can set classroom policies.

Free markets and their inherent negative/positive feedbacks have their place, but education is not one of the things where one can apply free market principles to, as the assumptions and mechanisms required breakdown.

Education is simply not something that lends itself to "free market" solutions, any more than health care does.

[angrydude]

Free markets and their inherent negative/positive feedbacks have their place, but education is not one of the things where one can apply free market principles to, as the assumptions and mechanisms required breakdown.

Education is simply not something that lends itself to "free market" solutions, any more than health care does.

Wait, so government subsidies for all now equals free market principles?

Got it. free market = Government when you don't like the outcome.

[boutons_deux]

DumbDude, You Are Really Dumb, For Real.

[Infinite_limit]

Would require strict requirements
- 3.0 GPA
- Atleast 15 credits attempted


Then I think most people would be for it

[CosmicCowboy]

duplicate

[CosmicCowboy]

I would support that. Might have to make it 13 hours, though.

[boutons_deux]

7 Conservatives Who Went to Publicly Subsidized Colleges Complain About Free Community College


http://www.alternet.org/education/7-conservatives-who-went-publicly-subsidized-colleges-complain-about-free-community?akid=12672.187590.tO5sNH&rd=1&src=newsletter1030034&t=3

[RandomGuy]

Wait, so government subsidies for all now equals free market principles?

Got it. free market = Government when you don't like the outcome.

???

Um, whut?

You might want to try using complete sentences and maybe, just maybe, string together some coherent thoughts. Try this:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpN4bTlAg_S55RDqVxbCt-Ai90w3J49iJmNg0s6oqgVFW3nwMQ


Then explain to my dumb ass just what the fuck you are trying to say, cause I really can't make much sense of it.

[TeyshaBlue]

CC :lol joins TB :lol on The Great Boutons' stalker team. :lol

Nobody stalks you, ratfucker. We just mock you and your asinine spit takes.
Stalking :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

There are worse ways to spend 75 billion per...but the costs will spike without price regulation...

Bingo.

[TeyshaBlue]

Varies by people, tbh...

Access to education is one area where I don't have a problem with government spending. Especially with the BS tuition prices...

Double bingo.

[Winehole23]

why can't we just be like the Germans, make it free, but make it really hard to get in?

[Winehole23]

I guess the idea that not everyone is equally well suited to every kind of work is still considered anti-egalitarian.

[boutons_deux]

why can't we just be like the Germans, make it free, but make it really hard to get in?

nope, American fantasy is that "All (white) Mean Are Created Equal", "tracking" students in middle school into academic and non-academic paths could prevent a non-academic kid from being a Nobel recipient.

[Nbadan]

We should be spending far more on it.

Our schools are just fine, despite the scaremongering.

Not great, but not as bad as many like to think. The Outrage Machine makes more money by playing up the faults and ignoring the good parts.

I wouldn't mind paying teachers with proven success at teaching get paid more...but whenever a district gets money they waste it on other, sometimes frivolous, needs..Perhaps a bigger tax deduction for teachers would be a better approach...

[Nbadan]

Free markets and their inherent negative/positive feedbacks have their place, but education is not one of the things where one can apply free market principles to, as the assumptions and mechanisms required breakdown.

Education is simply not something that lends itself to "free market" solutions, any more than health care does.

I don't care how you structure education...private or public...as long as no-child-left-behind gets repealed...it's stupid...there can't be one standard for every student...right now, special education students, would can't even feed themselves, must meet the same passing standard as top students in public schools..

[baseline bum]

why can't we just be like the Germans, make it free, but make it really hard to get in?

Yeah, I think if you're not in the academic track but want in you can work for a couple of years to get some experience needed to succeed in college. I remember taking a functional analysis course on coursera and there was a German guy doing that to get into their universities.

[Silver&Black]

:lmao "free"

[Agloco]

It's good to be a doctor though. Thebesteva is the only poor doctor (atleast he pretends to be) that i know. I'm pretty sure he's wetting himself at night thinking of the day he'll delivery of a Porsche 911. The 911 is all doctors think of once they finish residency tbh.

There are plenty of general practice docs who are just above break even.

There are worse investments than education for the masses.

[baseline bum]

There are worse investments than education for the masses.

About 1/10 of what Bush handed the banks.

[Agloco]

Most majors only require Algebra 2....which I think can be taught at a community college..


That's fucking sad.

:lol naturally BB would be appalled by this (as am I). Troof is, most 50k jobs don't require a lick of knowledge beyond 7th grade math though. It's also acceptable as a stepping stone to jobs requiring a bit more of an analytic/quantitative background.

[baseline bum]

:lol naturally BB would be appalled by this (as am I). Troof is, most 50k jobs don't require a lick of knowledge beyond 7th grade math though. It's also acceptable as a stepping stone to jobs requiring a bit more of an analytic/quantitative background.

I find it appalling to get college credit for taking a second/third year high school class.

[Agloco]

I find it appalling to get college credit for taking a second/third year high school class.

Oh, definitely agree. im of the same persusion as WH on this one. Entry requirements need to be ratcheted up, that would probably include making Calculus an exit requirement for high school.

[CosmicCowboy]

I find it appalling to get college credit for taking a second/third year high school class.

Feel free to correct me, but don't those "makeup" classes to get basics not count towards their major?

[baseline bum]

Feel free to correct me, but don't those "makeup" classes to get basics not count towards their major?

I think college algebra (:lol) satisfies math requirements for non-engineering and non-science majors. Too bad the engineering and science students don't get to take high school English.

[baseline bum]

Oh, definitely agree. im of the same persusion as WH on this one. Entry requirements need to be ratcheted up, that would probably include making Calculus an exit requirement for high school.

Our schools are such shit. Blows me away when I talk to French and German students who take analysis with measure theory and abstract algebra in second year undergrad. I can live with precal as an exit requirement though.

[boutons_deux]

best way to finance community colleges for everyone is for US govt immediately to stop giviing student loans to kids who attend for-profit colleges and give those grants, loans only to student at non-profit community colleges, trade schools.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pjd1QEA0c


and then there's Harken gone completely insane:

Tom Harkin Wants To Take Money From College Students To Pay Reviled Loan Contractors

has proposed taking $303 million from the Pell grant program to increase revenues for some of the nation’s biggest student loan specialists,\

Harkin has also floated the possibility of taking $2 billion out of the Pell program to use for other federal programs,

The department spent $678 million on loan servicing in the fiscal year that ended in September 2013

The U.S. Department of Justice accused Navient of deliberately cheating (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/13/sallie-mae-student-loans-troops_n_5319323.html) as many as 60,000 active-duty troops out of as much as $60 million

At the moment, the program has about a $4.4 billion surplus as a result of unused funding from previous years. Assuming Congress doesn’t alter the amount of money it makes available for Pell grants, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that the surplus will become a deficit by 2017.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/06/tom-harkin-pell-grants_n_6278920.html

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/01/08/obama-free-community-college/21466969/

Translation: Obummer wants to gouge the taxpayers for a watered-down college "education" from the same people who ruined K-12 schools.
We already have too many college educated/indoctrinated people as it is.

Do we really want more?

The fight for good hobs will be greater, and all burger flippers will have 4 year degrees, meaning McDonalds won't be hiring college dropouts!

[Wild Cobra]

Basically it just creates K-14. Sadly, it does nothing to address the actual cost of "higher" education which has risen at more than double the inflation rate for decades. The price increases were driven by "easy money" student loans which are now killing the recipients of the bloated cost degrees they purchased.
Yes, and I don't think our 14th graders will be better educated than an 8th grader in the 50's.

[Wild Cobra]

Would require strict requirements
- 3.0 GPA
- Atleast 15 credits attempted


Then I think most people would be for it

I would agree if I wasn't worried about schools propping grades for such purposes.

I would make it a 3.5 GPA plus for free college though.

[RandomGuy]

I think college algebra (:lol) satisfies math requirements for non-engineering and non-science majors. Too bad the engineering and science students don't get to take high school English.

http://catalog.utexas.edu/undergraduate/natural-sciences/degrees-and-programs/bachelor-of-arts-plan-i/

Negative. Algebra is required, but you are required to take ONE math beyond the basic algebra.

I took trig, and one other math course for liberal arts dorks that had a lot of oddball topics related to math in it, (i.e. voting systems analysis, Euler circuits, bin processing, etc)

I was, at 27, older than the grad student teaching the trig class. Algebra I managed to CLEP out of (I consider this one of my better accomplishments as I took the test cold 6 years after my last HS algebra).

Minimal math to be sure, but then, I was a language major.

[baseline bum]

http://catalog.utexas.edu/undergraduate/natural-sciences/degrees-and-programs/bachelor-of-arts-plan-i/

Negative. Algebra is required, but you are required to take ONE math beyond the basic algebra.

I took trig, and one other math course for liberal arts dorks that had a lot of oddball topics related to math in it, (i.e. voting systems analysis, Euler circuits, bin processing, etc)

I was, at 27, older than the grad student teaching the trig class. Algebra I managed to CLEP out of (I consider this one of my better accomplishments as I took the test cold 6 years after my last HS algebra).

Minimal math to be sure, but then, I was a language major.

Trig is junior level HS math. :lol

Man I wish I could have taken high school English or high school history in college tbh. And you still got credit for high school algebra.

[Infinite_limit]

It blows my mind that people receive college diplomas without passing Calculus

[baseline bum]

It blows my mind that people receive college diplomas without passing Calculus

I'd be fine with it if we didn't have to take their fucking humanities courses. What a load of crap, I have to take English in an impacted course with all the humanities majors but those pricks don't have to take my calc or linear algebra?

[Nbadan]

:lol naturally BB would be appalled by this (as am I). Troof is, most 50k jobs don't require a lick of knowledge beyond 7th grade math though. It's also acceptable as a stepping stone to jobs requiring a bit more of an analytic/quantitative background.

I really doubt that any student with the problem solving skills of a 7th grader would be good at any 50K job....only mathematicians and engineers really need math beyond Cal 2...

[CosmicCowboy]

I'd be fine with it if we didn't have to take their fucking humanities courses. What a load of crap, I have to take English in an impacted course with all the humanities majors but those pricks don't have to take my calc or linear algebra?

LOL I took all the college level english and math in high school and tested out of english in college. Tested out of 15 hours before I ever hit campus. Was forced to take a "psychology for Engineers" class that really pissed me off, though. I fought with that prick in every single class. He was out of his fucking mind. I remember that one thing he stated as fact was that people in the US would not need cars by the year 2000 because we would have mass transit everywhere. He would lecture and I would then politely ask " Are you going to test us on this?' If he said yes, I would politely ask "well then do we give the RIGHT answer or the bullshit answer you just gave in your lecture?".

[Agloco]

I really doubt that any student with the problem solving skills of a 7th grader would be good at any 50K job....only mathematicians and engineers really need math beyond Cal 2...

Yeah, except that's not what I said. It is possible to have problem solving skills well beyond the 7th grade level and cap out at 7th grade math proficiency.

[Agloco]

I'd be fine with it if we didn't have to take their fucking humanities courses. What a load of crap, I have to take English in an impacted course with all the humanities majors but those pricks don't have to take my calc or linear algebra?

Everyone needs Emile Durkheim, no one needs your matrices. :lol

It's pretty silly though. Do I really need more English as a science major? And vice versa.

[baseline bum]

Everyone needs Emile Durkheim, no one needs your matrices. :lol

It's pretty silly though. Do I really need more English as a science major? And vice versa.

If I have to read fucking Chaucer in 1300's Middle English those faggots should have to prove the spectral theorem.

[RandomGuy]

I'd be fine with it if we didn't have to take their fucking humanities courses. What a load of crap, I have to take English in an impacted course with all the humanities majors but those pricks don't have to take my calc or linear algebra?

A healthy sense of curiosity is, IMO, more important for a good scientist than linear algebra. The math is necessary, but not sufficient.

Looking up and out beyond one's field of study is what sets truly brilliant minds apart from mediocre ones.


Science, more than ever, needs thoughtful considerations of ethics and standards of behavior, and those kinds of things are to be found in those humanities courses.


To be clear: meant as advice, and not commentary on anyone in particular, i.e. brain droppings.

[RandomGuy]

LOL I took all the college level english and math in high school and tested out of english in college. Tested out of 15 hours before I ever hit campus. Was forced to take a "psychology for Engineers" class that really pissed me off, though. I fought with that prick in every single class. He was out of his fucking mind. I remember that one thing he stated as fact was that people in the US would not need cars by the year 2000 because we would have mass transit everywhere. He would lecture and I would then politely ask " Are you going to test us on this?' If he said yes, I would politely ask "well then do we give the RIGHT answer or the bullshit answer you just gave in your lecture?".

+1

[baseline bum]

A healthy sense of curiosity is, IMO, more important for a good scientist than linear algebra. The math is necessary, but not sufficient.

Looking up and out beyond one's field of study is what sets truly brilliant minds apart from mediocre ones.


Science, more than ever, needs thoughtful considerations of ethics and standards of behavior, and those kinds of things are to be found in those humanities courses.


To be clear: meant as advice, and not commentary on anyone in particular, i.e. brain droppings.

LOL try understanding quantum mechanics without linear algebra. OK, now try understanding it without Chaucer.

So what did Einstein publish of note outside physics? Or Weinberg, what did he do in the humanities? Yeah, Newton's work in alchemy and religious mumbo-jumbo was groundbreaking. :lol

[Blizzardwizard]

Obama couldn't be more right in that video.

I wish I lived in Liberal America sometimes. Better than the crap heap that is conservatism and a constitutional monarchy..

[pgardn]

Our schools are such shit. Blows me away when I talk to French and German students who take analysis with measure theory and abstract algebra in second year undergrad. I can live with precal as an exit requirement though.

They are not shit. There are some excellent public schools. The problem is that public schools most often reflect the socioeconomic status of the surrounding area. People who never benefitted from education don't value it. Parents are the major problems. When a school is loaded with kids and parents that don't care guess what kind of teachers and school you get? AND we do not track students. Those kids in France and Germany are already culled. Their cohorts who could not handle academics went to trade school, which we lack. They cull them in middle school.

There is a reason people come here for a college education at good schools from other countries, we pack em in. We do great research, it's competitive and we spend a good amount on it. Although that has been cut.

If we had good trade schools and culled we would be every bit as good. We already are for kids taking the AP route.

[pgardn]

LOL try understanding quantum mechanics without linear algebra. OK, now try understanding it without Chaucer.

So what did Einstein publish of note outside physics? Or Weinberg, what did he do in the humanities? Yeah, Newton's work in alchemy and religious mumbo-jumbo was groundbreaking. :lol

I belive he is correct. Michael Faraday (very poor mathematician) one of the great experimental scientist ever and got Maxwell thinking about field theory with his papers. And even Maxwell had to be re explained and paired down. Darwin, possibly the most influential scientist the world has ever seen in setting the foundation for Biology as a whole was not a math guy. His ideas go all the way down to the molecular level. People used his ideas and put math to it (population genetics, protein folding problems) Hell Einstein had to have help putting his ideas in mathematical form.

I am initiating this as I work with math guys who fail to see the larger ideas, and larger idea guys that don't see the math. I am fortunately somewhat of a middle man translator. This is basically why I see this dichotomy. If everyone was more like Feinman I would not have a job. I have worked with math geniuses imo, who can't relate math to some fairly simple physical ideas. They like to play math gymnastics (which is fine), but application is a problem.

I really think there is a lot of back and forth. Idea, model making abstract thinkers that tinker with basic data (the Higgs stuff) cannot necessarily write the equations to fit their ideas. And the math guys can't engineer the machines to test ideas , but they can certainly tell the engineers what won't work if the engineers can ask them the right questions.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I'm fairly passionate about this as I live with it. I'm not saying there is a perfect dichotomy, as I intentionally listed Feinmam, but I do see some real contrast.

[baseline bum]

I belive he is correct. Michael Faraday (very poor mathematician) one of the great experimental scientist ever and got Maxwell thinking about field theory with his papers. And even Maxwell had to be re explained and paired down. Darwin, possibly the most influential scientist the world has ever seen in setting the foundation for Biology as a whole was not a math guy. His ideas go all the way down to the molecular level. People used his ideas and put math to it (population genetics, protein folding problems) Hell Einstein had to have help putting his ideas in mathematical form.

I am initiating this as I work with math guys who fail to see the larger ideas, and larger idea guys that don't see the math. I am fortunately somewhat of a middle man translator. This is basically why I see this dichotomy. If everyone was more like Feinman I would not have a job. I have worked with math geniuses imo, who can't relate math to some fairly simple physical ideas. They like to play math gymnastics (which is fine), but application is a problem.

I really think there is a lot of back and forth. Idea, model making abstract thinkers that tinker with basic data (the Higgs stuff) cannot necessarily write the equations to fit their ideas. And the math guys can't engineer the machines to test ideas , but they can certainly tell the engineers what won't work if the engineers can ask them the right questions.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I'm fairly passionate about this as I live with it. I'm not saying there is a perfect dichotomy, as I intentionally listed Feinmam, but I do see some real contrast.

I wasn't talking so much about math itself as the idea that scientists need to be well-rounded. But still, QM without linear algebra is just lots of hand waving and spookiness.

[CosmicCowboy]

freaking nerds!...:p::lol

[RandomGuy]

I belive he is correct. Michael Faraday (very poor mathematician) one of the great experimental scientist ever and got Maxwell thinking about field theory with his papers. And even Maxwell had to be re explained and paired down. Darwin, possibly the most influential scientist the world has ever seen in setting the foundation for Biology as a whole was not a math guy. His ideas go all the way down to the molecular level. People used his ideas and put math to it (population genetics, protein folding problems) Hell Einstein had to have help putting his ideas in mathematical form.

I am initiating this as I work with math guys who fail to see the larger ideas, and larger idea guys that don't see the math. I am fortunately somewhat of a middle man translator. This is basically why I see this dichotomy. If everyone was more like Feinman I would not have a job. I have worked with math geniuses imo, who can't relate math to some fairly simple physical ideas. They like to play math gymnastics (which is fine), but application is a problem.

I really think there is a lot of back and forth. Idea, model making abstract thinkers that tinker with basic data (the Higgs stuff) cannot necessarily write the equations to fit their ideas. And the math guys can't engineer the machines to test ideas , but they can certainly tell the engineers what won't work if the engineers can ask them the right questions.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I'm fairly passionate about this as I live with it. I'm not saying there is a perfect dichotomy, as I intentionally listed Feinmam, but I do see some real contrast.

I agree. There is a special skill that comes from being able to dial stuff up/down and go from high-level thinking to fine details.

That is where US schools tend to excel, I think, and why people are beating down our college doors to get into them.

[RandomGuy]

freaking nerds!...:p::lol

https://d1u1p2xjjiahg3.cloudfront.net/3b3d5668-4982-440a-9306-70c1342dd45a.jpg

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If I have to read fucking Chaucer in 1300's Middle English those faggots should have to prove the spectral theorem.

Chaucer and Beowulf are about all there is in early English literature as opposed to an arbitrary post renaissance mathematical model of phenomenon in physics.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wasn't talking so much about math itself as the idea that scientists need to be well-rounded. But still, QM without linear algebra is just lots of hand waving and spookiness.

It implies a structure or symmetry about which we have yet to intuit. The solutions work empirically. Either way the complex plane using the gaussian matrix sums still has you integrating along proportions of i. That works too but the explanations still invite quite a bit of handwaving.

[Nbadan]

Yeah, except that's not what I said. It is possible to have problem solving skills well beyond the 7th grade level and cap out at 7th grade math proficiency.

The reason people learn higher math is to improve problem-solving skills..that's why there is a problem-solving process...Yes, some kids are naturally better problem solvers but most students have to learn to become better..

[CosmicCowboy]

i hated the math problem solving "process" all through K-12 until I got to college engineering level math. i could just look at an equation and simplify it in my head. I never got 100's on math tests because I always got counted off for not "showing my work"...

[boutons_deux]

The Enchanted Land Where Community College Is Free? Welcome to Tennessee in 2015

Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam promised his state something unprecedented: free community college tuition.

The “Tennessee Promise” is now more than a promise: It’s a law Haslam signed in May. The bill provides two years of tuition at a community college or college of applied technology for any high school graduate who agrees to work with a mentor, complete eight hours of community service, and maintain at least a C average. High school graduates will start to reap these benefits in fall 2015.

high school grads without a college degree faced an unemployment rate of 7.5 percent, more than 2 percentage points higher than their associate-degree holding peers; their annual income was lower by more than $6,500.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/28560-the-enchanted-land-where-community-college-is-free-welcome-to-tennessee-in-2015

What a weird red state! TN govt actually trying to help its citizens, rather rather than screwing them.