The Myth Behind Defensive Gun Ownership

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The spurious conclusions in these surveys don’t just distort the pro-gun community’s perception of defensive gun use. For example, the claim that millions every year shoot their guns in self-defense has led some to posit that there are more defensive gun uses than criminal uses. This assertion is inexplicable—not backed by any substantive evidence. We have yet to find a single study examining the question that does not show that criminal uses far outweigh defensive uses.

You might hear gun advocates substantiate this claim by comparing inflated survey numbers like Kleck’s with NCVS crime numbers. But defensive gun use surveys and the NCVS use different methodologies. To compare those two data sets is to break one of the most important laws of statistical analysis: You must always compare likes to likes.

And indeed, comparing NCVS results to NCVS results yields a very different picture—that more than 9 times as many people are victimized by guns than protected by them. Respondents in two Harvard surveys had more than 3 times as many offensive gun uses against them as defensive gun uses. Another study focusing on adolescences found 13 times as many offensive gun uses. Yet another study focusing on gun use in the home found that a gun was more than 6 times more likely to be used to intimidate a family member than in a defensive capacity. The evidence is nearly unanimous.

Beyond the defensive gun use versus criminal use dichotomy lies an important question: Are all defensive gun uses good? Undergirding gun advocates’ rhetoric touting the millions of defensive gun uses every year is the assumption that these uses are necessarily good. However, most cases of defensive gun use are not of gun owners heroically defending their families from criminals.

Kleck himself admitted in 1997, in response to criticism of his survey, that 36 to 64 percent of the defensive gun uses reported in the survey were likely illegal—meaning the firearm was used to intimidate or harm another person rather than for legitimate self-defense. His conjecture was confirmed by a Harvard study showing that 51 percent of defensive gun uses in a large survey were illegal according to a panel of 5 judges. This was even after the judges were told to take the respondents at their word, deliberately ignoring the tendency of respondents to portray themselves in a positive light.

Let’s assume for a moment that Kleck and Getz’s estimates are accurate. Rather than being a boon to civilized society, then, these estimates of 1 million to 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually would instead indicate an epidemic of irresponsible gun owners—millions! Lucky for us, despite what the NRA’s favorite criminologists claim, this clearly isn’t the case.

The myth of widespread defensive gun use is at the heart of the push to weaken already near catatonic laws controlling the use of guns and expand where good guys can carry guns to bars, houses of worship and college campuses—all in the mistaken belief that more “good guys with guns” will help stop the “bad guys.” As Wayne LaPierre of the NRA railed in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting: “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.”

But the evidence clearly shows that our lax gun laws and increased gun ownership, spurred on by this myth, do not help “good guys with guns” defend themselves, their families or our society. Instead, they are aiding and abetting criminals by providing them with more guns, with 200,000 already stolen on an annual basis. And more guns means more homicides. More suicides. More dead men, women and children. Not fewer.

rest is at http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262_Page2.html

[boutons_deux]

are the right-wing, gun fellators LYING, again? :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

stupid article believed and reposted by even stupider people.

No one claims there are millions that use their guns in self defense every year.

[Blake]

Yeah, my first question was who is making that claim

[101A]

I'm pretty sure if guns are restricted/outlawed to a great degree, the ratio of criminal to defensive uses will be more extreme, or, by definition, even infinite.

[hater]

LOL thinking you can erradicate guns in the US. Even if you make them illegal, they will be flowing in the black markets and actually make criminals even richer

dumbasses

[boutons_deux]

I'm pretty sure if guns are restricted/outlawed to a great degree, the ratio of criminal to defensive uses will be more extreme, or, by definition, even infinite.

you'd be pretty wrong in your certitude

If gun purchases, ownership were heavily regulated, all y'all redneck Good Guys would still be able to have all the guns you want, but it would cost a lot more (annual registration fee, mandatory theft/liability insurance, gun carrier would have to show title and insurance, just like with a car, etc). the higher the barriers to purchase and ownership, the much better chance of keeping Bad Guys from having guns.

The Bad Guys caught with guns would lose them, be fined or jailed, and their guns destroyed.

Gun Owners who "lose" their guns, would also be fined, and have their guns confiscated for x months or more.

[hater]

The Bad Guys caught with guns would lose them, be fined or jailed, and their guns destroyed.

:lmao that's what the guys who started the Prohibition said :lol

[m>s]

Everyone watch the video I posyed if you want to see defensive gun use in action

[101A]

you'd be pretty wrong in your certitude

If gun purchases, ownership were heavily regulated, all y'all redneck Good Guys would still be able to have all the guns you want, but it would cost a lot more (annual registration fee, mandatory theft/liability insurance, gun carrier would have to show title and insurance, just like with a car, etc). the higher the barriers to purchase and ownership, the much better chance of keeping Bad Guys from having guns.

The Bad Guys caught with guns would lose them, be fined or jailed, and their guns destroyed.

Gun Owners who "lose" their guns, would also be fined, and have their guns confiscated for x months or more.

Cost a lot more?

Only the wealthy could afford guns?

I can see the logic in that. Thanks.

[101A]

you'd be pretty wrong in your certitude

If gun purchases, ownership were heavily regulated, all y'all redneck Good Guys would still be able to have all the guns you want, but it would cost a lot more (annual registration fee, mandatory theft/liability insurance, gun carrier would have to show title and insurance, just like with a car, etc). the higher the barriers to purchase and ownership, the much better chance of keeping Bad Guys from having guns.

The Bad Guys caught with guns would lose them, be fined or jailed, and their guns destroyed.

Gun Owners who "lose" their guns, would also be fined, and have their guns confiscated for x months or more.


Also, over 90% of crimes committed with firearms are committed with illegal firearms. I fail to see how your societal design would alter that metric.

[DarrinS]

Don't feel bad, Fuzzy. At least you have boutons on your side. :lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy is just baby boutons.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

stupid article believed and reposted by even stupider people.

No one claims there are millions that use their guns in self defense every year.

It cited multiple accounts of people and organizations doing just that. Quit projecting your arrogant ass onto everything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Also, over 90% of crimes committed with firearms are committed with illegal firearms. I fail to see how your societal design would alter that metric.

Use of a gun in the commission of a crime makes it an illegal gun. That doesn't posit much.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao that's what the guys who started the Prohibition said :lol

There is a physical addiction associated with owning a gun? Shall we discuss the comparable manufacturing of the products in question?

[TeyshaBlue]

There is a physical addiction associated with owning a gun? Shall we discuss the comparable manufacturing of the products in question?

Prohibition wasn't so much about addiction but rather about behavior. In that light, the allegory makes sense.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Prohibition wasn't so much about addiction but rather about behavior. In that light, the allegory makes sense.

Addiction and behavior go hand in hand.

[CosmicCowboy]

It cited multiple accounts of people and organizations doing just that. Quit projecting your arrogant ass onto everything.

It did not.

It referred to ONE obscure 21 year old random survey of about 2000 people.

LOL multiple accounts.

LOL Fuzzy agenda.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It did not.

It referred to ONE obscure 21 year old random survey of about 2000 people.

LOL multiple accounts.

LOL Fuzzy agenda.

The Kleck Study.

http://heartland.org/policy-documents/gun-locks-bound-misfire was linked in the article.

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/21/167824766/nra-only-thing-that-stops-a-bad-guy-with-a-gun-is-a-good-guy-with-a-gun Here is the NRA again linked in the article.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate An Ohio organization too.

You didn't read the article did you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol http://www.gallup.com/poll/165605/personal-safety-top-reason-americans-own-guns-today.aspx

They linked a gallup poll indicating that 60% of people who own guns think exactly what he claims noone is thinking.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/vtito3dvbe-ugfnal39xpg.png

[CosmicCowboy]

So you have other obscure references to the same obscure study. Buckeye Firearms Organization? :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol http://www.gallup.com/poll/165605/personal-safety-top-reason-americans-own-guns-today.aspx

They linked a gallup poll indicating that 60% of people who own guns think exactly what he claims noone is thinking.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/vtito3dvbe-ugfnal39xpg.png


:lmao owning a gun for personal protection is not the same as using it every year for personal protection. :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao owning a gun for personal protection is not the same as using it every year for personal protection. :lol

http://www.armedwithreason.com/shooting-down-the-gun-lobbys-favorite-academic-a-lott-of-lies/

Here is another guy using the data.

The poll speaks to the premise, the notion that gun ownership protects from crime and injury. If you want to fixate on the particulars of the Kleck study that is fine but the other links all speak to that in particular. It's all from the second paragraph of the article following the series of anecdotes where they list how pervasive the 1995 study is still today. The first of course was the link to the study itself and discussed its methods and conclusions.

You didn't read the article or if you did, you didn't do it very well.

[CosmicCowboy]

i in no way believe that millions in the USA use their guns for self defense every year.

I absolutely believe that millions in the USA own guns for self defense.

[CosmicCowboy]

Whether owning the gun is "effective" depends on the person and the circumstance.

I know that personally if mine or my families life was threatened I would much rather have a gun in my hand than to not have a gun in my hand.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i in no way believe that millions in the USA use their guns for self defense every year.

I absolutely believe that millions in the USA own guns for self defense.

You fixation on self is child like. Pre-K 4 year old obliviousness.

We are discussing public policy and the truth behind the sentiments. I am happy that you have the sentiment they discuss in the article too. You're a 'good guy.'

[CosmicCowboy]

You fixation on self is child like. Pre-K 4 year old obliviousness.

We are discussing public policy and the truth behind the sentiments. I am happy that you have the sentiment they discuss in the article too. You're a 'good guy.'

What the fuck are you talking about?

From your article:


. For example, the claim that millions every year shoot their guns in self-defense has led some to posit that there are more defensive gun uses than criminal uses. This assertion is inexplicable—not backed by any substantive evidence.

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you think millions every year in the US shoot their guns in self defense or not?

I sure don't and think it's a stupid claim.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So you have other obscure references to the same obscure study. Buckeye Firearms Organization? :lol

This is dishonest shit from you. Are you going to disregard the links to the NRA head, the Heartland Institute, and a Washington gun lobbyist? Instead you hand wave at the other examples you said none of which existed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What the fuck are you talking about?

From your article:

Whether or not you think so is besides the point you self-absorbed fool. The article referenced 5 places that did including a who's who of the gun lobby in Lott and LaPierre.

If you agree that the claim is bullshit then great but why are you arguing the point then? Quit being butthurt and try and use your head.

[CosmicCowboy]

This is dishonest shit from you. Are you going to disregard the links to the NRA head, the Heartland Institute, and a Washington gun lobbyist? Instead you hand wave at the other examples you said none of which existed.

:lmao

You can't even read and comprehend your own links. NRA / LaPierre never said millions used guns every year in self defense.

You are just full of shit.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hertland Institute :lmao

might as well quote the Onion...:lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao

You can't even read and comprehend your own links. NRA / LaPierre never said millions used guns every year in self defense.

You are just full of shit.

Seeing that the LaPierre link is audio, you're right I never read it.

[CosmicCowboy]

That's like claiming all liberals are as stone cold crazy as Boutons. Of course, since you strive to be Baby Boutons you might even believe that.

[Big Empty]

my 9mm is on the table next to my bed. ive never had to use it and hope i never do. id lock it away but whats the point if im awaken in the middle of the night by an intruder one day. am i gonna throw the key at him? lol

[SnakeBoy]

Whether owning the gun is "effective" depends on the person and the circumstance.

I know that personally if mine or my families life was threatened I would much rather have a gun in my hand than to not have a gun in my hand.

I don't know why you get into the arguments since you can't overcome the ridiculous logic of these libs. There is no need to own a gun to protect yourself from gun violence because the risk is miniscule. Therefore, we must ban all guns because the risk of gun violence is so great.

[CosmicCowboy]

my 9mm is on the table next to my bed. ive never had to use it and hope i never do. id lock it away but whats the point if im awaken in the middle of the night by an intruder one day. am i gonna throw the key at him? lol

Did you know that Fuzzy Lumpkins thinks conservatives believe that MILLIONS fire their guns every year in self defense?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's like claiming all liberals are as stone cold crazy as Boutons. Of course, since you strive to be Baby Boutons you might even believe that.

The article outlines specifically what it disagrees with and gives several examples. Your attempts to shoehorn 'all liberals' or 'all conservatives' in an effort to make it about you is adorable.

You don't even disagree with my or the articles premise. You are too dumb to reconcile that with your butthurt though so you go this route. It's like a broken mind. You having to write everything down lately, old man?

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy thought that since conservatives believe that millions fire their guns in self defense every year that it was SOOO important that he needed to start a thread about it.

Baby Boutons indeed.

[CosmicCowboy]

then he posts a poll that says 60% of gun owners own guns for self defense and claims that backs up his claim that conservatives think millions use guns in self defense every year.

Baby Boutons indeed.

[TeyshaBlue]

Addiction and behavior go hand in hand.

I disagree. They can accompany each other but they are not mutual.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy thought that since conservatives believe that millions fire their guns in self defense every year that it was SOOO important that he needed to start a thread about it.

Baby Boutons indeed.

You suck at speaking for me. I don't go for the dumbed down blame it all on groupthink route pretty much ever certainly not on that scope. You do but don't project that shit onto me.

If you must know, my issue is with the gun lobby using flawed methods in specific statistics and surveys and using it to try to paint that gun proliferation increases security. That combined with their obfuscation campaign regarding gun statistics and tracking firearms is a problem. It all ties together but I felt that this article did a good job showing where the statistical inconsistencies and misrepresentations are.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I disagree. They can accompany each other but they are not mutual.

In the case of the individual and given responsibilities, we are responsible for our own actions. Looking at it from the vantage point of the entire population, alcohol addiction will manifest certain undesirable behaviors regularly nonetheless. There are a lot of weak minded people out there.

[CosmicCowboy]

Well, it didn't but considering your preconceived ideology I can see how you bought into it.

Guns bad.

People with guns bad.

Bad people wouldn't have guns if there were no guns.

I get it, Baby Boo.

[TeyshaBlue]

There are a lot of weak minded people out there.

I'm one of them. :lol

[DisAsTerBot]

I don't know why you get into the arguments since you can't overcome the ridiculous logic of these libs. There is no need to own a gun to protect yourself from gun violence because the risk is miniscule. Therefore, we must ban all guns because the risk of gun violence is so great.

:tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't know why you get into the arguments since you can't overcome the ridiculous logic of these libs. There is no need to own a gun to protect yourself from gun violence because the risk is miniscule. Therefore, we must ban all guns because the risk of gun violence is so great.

I guess reading is an issue with you as well. The argument is that gun ownership increases public health and safety risks and does not decrease it despite claims by the NRA and gun lobby. You try and make it seem as if it is not a direct comparison. You obviously did not read or understand what the article says. Instead, you substitute a blanket dismissal of your 'opponent' and cry about a strawman.

The article did nothing to present a ban. Neither has anyone in this thread. OTOH, you are doing the typical NRA hysteria line, 'they want to take all our guns.'

The quote in my sig about thinking for yourself. . . that is meant for people such as yourself. You clearly are big into partisan groupthink and parrot NRA scare tactics. it is what it is.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm one of them. :lol

Me too, mang. We all have our weak moments.