The Importance of Kawhi in numbers..

[Spursfanfromafar]

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?TeamID=1610612759&VsPlayerID=202695&range=2011&range=2014

The Spurs' defensive rating is 94.5 when Leonard is on the court and 103.0 when he is not. Even the offense improves by around 4 points when Leonard is on the court.

Clearly he is the Spurs' MVP. The Leonard era has begun .. in full earnest.

[gnsf0946]

he is but it also indicates we have no real backup at the SF spot

[urunobili]

he is but it also indicates we have no real backup at the SF spot

Danny Green covers the backup 3 minutes tbh. An addition would be Daye like. Even if they bring a veteran like Tayshaun Prince the minutes would be spotty...

[100%duncan]

Best player on the team no question.

[silverblackfan]

Leonard is awesome, but I wonder what the stats would look like if Tim had been out instead. I imagine the effect would be similar.

[Mal]

About that DRtg. Kawhi`s subs are SG from not best defensive SG in the league. 37-years old Ginobili, Belinneli, Mills. No wonder this looks that bad.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Leonard is awesome, but I wonder what the stats would look like if Tim had been out instead. I imagine the effect would be similar.

Spurs without TD have a defensive rating that is around 103 and when TD is on court, around 98.5. TD is indispensable but Kawhi simply elevates the team to the best defensive unit in the league when he plays with TD & others.

[hater]

Spurs without TD have a defensive rating that is around 103 and when TD is on court, around 98.5. TD is indispensable but Kawhi simply elevates the team to the best defensive unit in the league when he plays with TD & others.

wait are you seriously comparing Tim's numbers when Kawhi is out injured and Kawhi's numbers along with a healthy Tim?

you can't be serious

[Spursfanfromafar]

wait are you seriously comparing Tim's numbers when Kawhi is out injured and Kawhi's numbers along with a healthy Tim?

you can't be serious

It would be difficult for a numskull like you to understand. But Tim's numbers are based on off the court / on the court as much as Kawhi's. Without Kawhi on the floor, the Spurs' DRating slumps 9 points, without TD - 4. Could be because the backup big men are better than the backup swingmen but all things considered, Kawhi seems to be most valuable to the team this season.

[hater]

It would be difficult for a numskull like you to understand. But Tim's numbers are based on off the court / on the court as much as Kawhi's. Without Kawhi on the floor, the Spurs' DRating slumps 9 points, without TD - 4. Could be because the backup big men are better than the backup swingmen but all things considered, Kawhi seems to be most valuable to the team this season.

but you are counting off court minutes when Kawhi was injured right? then it's not a fair comparison

because you are counting Kawhi's ON court #s WITH DUNCAN on the floor too mostly

you are counting Tim's ON court #s WITHOUT KAWHI on the floor mostly

bad comparison and can't be taken seriously. sorry brah

[Spursfanfromafar]

but you are counting off court minutes when Kawhi was injured right? then it's not a fair comparison

because you are counting Kawhi's ON court #s WITH DUNCAN on the floor too mostly

you are counting Tim's ON court #s WITHOUT KAWHI on the floor mostly

bad comparison and can't be taken seriously. sorry brah

Nope. The fact that the Spurs sucked so badly when Kawhi was out, in execution, in late game play and inability to get stops actually adds to the fact that Kawhi is even more valuable. It is but obvious that Pop will maximise his value by playing him in tandem with TD, who is at 38, still the league's best defensive big man. That Kawhi's off-on is 6 points clear of TD's is not diminished because of his injury.

[hater]

Nope. The fact that the Spurs sucked so badly when Kawhi was out, in execution, in late game play and inability to get stops actually adds to the fact that Kawhi is even more valuable. It is but obvious that Pop will maximise his value by playing him in tandem with TD, who is at 38, still the league's best defensive big man. That Kawhi's off-on is 6 points clear of TD's is not diminished because of his injury.

agree to some extent. But still your #s are not a fair comparison. Tell you what, remove the games where Kawhi was out injured and do the comparison. :tu

[Spursfanfromafar]

agree to some extent. But still your #s are not a fair comparison. Tell you what, remove the games where Kawhi was out injured and do the comparison. :tu

Don't have a tool that will help me do this.

But I tried to narrow it down this way:

Spurs' ORating/DRating in the games Kawhi was injured: 106.0/106.2

Spurs' ORating/DRating in the games Kawhi played (1st 20): 108.1/100.5; Spurs' ORating/DRating in the last three games after Kawhi returned: 111.2/95.3

[hater]

Don't have a tool that will help me do this.

But I tried to narrow it down this way:

Spurs' ORating/DRating in the games Kawhi was injured: 106.0/106.2

Spurs' ORating/DRating in the games Kawhi played (1st 20): 108.1/100.5; Spurs' ORating/DRating in the last three games after Kawhi returned: 111.2/95.3

awesome. I think that would translate to an overall 108.5/99.8 for Kawhi. What about Duncan's # in that same stretch (20 first games and last 3 games)?

[Spursfanfromafar]

awesome. I think that would translate to an overall 108.5/99.8 for Kawhi. What about Duncan's # in that same stretch (20 first games and last 3 games)?

Duncan last three games: ORTG: 107.8/ DRtg: 96.0
Duncan in the first 20 games for the Spurs: 108.0/ DRtg: 95.3

Kawhi last three games: ORTG: 117.7/ DRtg: 94.8
Kawhi in the first 20 games for the Spurs: ORTG: 106.5/DRtg: 94.5

Any which way you slice it, Kawhi's Defensive Numbers seem better.

[hater]

Duncan last three games: ORTG: 107.8/ DRtg: 96.0
Duncan in the first 20 games for the Spurs: 108.0/ DRtg: 95.3

Kawhi last three games: ORTG: 117.7/ DRtg: 94.8
Kawhi in the first 20 games for the Spurs: ORTG: 106.5/DRtg: 94.5

Any which way you slice it, Kawhi's Defensive Numbers seem better.

cool thanks.

adjusted:
Duncan:
108/95.9

Kawhi:
108/94.5

numbers are so close I think it's fair to say both Duncan and Kawhi are equally as important to Spurs. :tu

[Spursfanfromafar]

cool thanks.

adjusted:
Duncan:
108/95.9

Kawhi:
108/94.5

numbers are so close I think it's fair to say both Duncan and Kawhi are equally as important to Spurs. :tu

No one would doubt that they are equally important.. But Kawhi seems to be a shade more valuable than Duncan. That is all the point.

I don't like a competition between my own favourite players in the team I support. What I wanted to suggest is that Kawhi has elevated his game so well .. so as to become the most valuable Spur on the team despite the presence of the Big 3. It is a milestone for the young lad.

[Mikeanaro]

With all due respect Kawhi threads belong to apalisoc, have you asked him for permission?:p:

[Pauleta14]

Leonard is awesome, but I wonder what the stats would look like if Tim had been out instead. I imagine the effect would be similar.

Totaly agree...

Timmy is taken for granted, but take him out and we are in a worst situation than without Kawhi IMO.

Kawhi might be our best player, we are Elite with him, but Timmy is still the anchor, he is ESSENTIAL.

[apalisoc_9]

Totaly agree...

Timmy is taken for granted, but take him out and we are in a worst situation than without Kawhi IMO.

Kawhi might be our best player, we are Elite with him, but Timmy is still the anchor, he is ESSENTIAL.

The most mainstream take I've seen in quite a while..

:lol

[dabom]

The most mainstream take I've seen in quite a while..

:lol

What are you talking about? You do understand duncan is the best player on this team right?
The team is fortunate to have many players that can play good minutes for TD while he is out but we don't have a replacement for kawhi.
These are FACTS. You can't deny these things. That is the primary reason for the team doing shit coupled with playing tons of quality opponents in a short time frame.
Same for last year. Kawhi got injured during a tough stretch and we still didn't have a SF backup and danny green was out too during that time.
The stats are misleading and you're deluding yourself if you keep ignoring these facts.

[TheGreatYacht]

Not sure if Kawhi is that good, or Austin Daye starting is that bad

[Mel_13]

Not sure if Kawhi is that good, or Austin Daye starting is that bad

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[look_at_g_shred]

Not sure if Kawhi is that good, or Austin Daye starting is that bad
That avi is fucking atrocious.

[TDfan2007]

The most mainstream take I've seen in quite a while..

:lol

Meh, it's debatable. As someone (Hater, I think) pointed out earlier, Timmy's numbers have suffered due to playing with absurd lineups, while Kawhi has had the luxury of playing with Timmy every game. His RAPM numbers will naturally look better. They're both vital 2-way players. Timmy is the better anchor, passer, and rebounder. Kawhi is the better iso scorer and one-on-one defender. Together they're probably the best defensive duo in the league.

One underappreciated aspect of Kawhi is how much easier he makes the lives of our bigs when defending the pnr, especially Timmy's. His helpside D disrupts the ballhandler just enough for Timmy (who can't move like he used to) to recover. Timmy in turn is arguably the best rim-protector in the league and allows Kawhi to stick tighter to his man knowing that he has help. They have fantastic defensive chemistry together. When you throw Tiago and Danny into the equation too, our team D becomes elite.

IMO for Kawhi to become the undisputed best player on the team he needs to maintain a level of consistency that he has yet to reach, as Pop alluded to earlier in the season. It'll definitely happen soon though based on his rate of progress.