Why would Kawhi stay here if Tim and Manu hang them up at season's end?

[ElNono]

Was just thinking about it. I mean, sure the Spurs can offer good money, but career-wise, he's not the focal point of anything right now, and the promise that he will be can be made by any other team (and likely much more convincingly).

Plus it's well known San Antonio always had problems attracting top notch talent, due to, among other things, being a small market, something that's crucial since the team would need to basically rebuild the core.

If you were in his shoes, looking at the future of this team, what would be the arguments that would make you stay? I can think of: Pop is a proven coach and this is a stable franchise (although truthfully Tim was a big part of that).

[HI-FI]

breakfast tacos?

[spurraider21]

he has two promising point guards in Mills and Cojo, synergizes well with Green on both ends, his role on the offense has grown every year, and we can offer him the most $

plus this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbX7OQ8mQ4w

[apalisoc_9]

Parker not knowing his role will ultimately lead to Kawhi leaving the team...

[Spur|n|Austin]

Whataburger

[spurraider21]

the spurs would match anything anyway. the only way he's leaving is if he signs a short term deal like Parsons or the QO

[Sean Cagney]

Money is a good reason. He will get paid.

[ElNono]

the spurs would match anything anyway. the only way he's leaving is if he signs a short term deal like Parsons or the QO

If he signs the QO, that means that either the Spurs didn't offer an extension or he didn't agree to it, which I guess it means he's as good as gone.

[100%duncan]

Because he's a loyal nigglet tbh

[DJR210]

Kawhi ain't going nowhere IMO.

[spursparker9]

he has two promising point guards in Mills and Cojo, synergizes well with Green on both ends, his role on the offense has grown every year, and we can offer him the most $

plus this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbX7OQ8mQ4w


Pop not gonna stay for too long also.

[DJR210]

I think he enjoys the HEB products and commercials too much to leave.

[Mr Bones]

Why would Tim and Manu staying one more year matter on a four or five year deal? Either way, Kawhi knows they're not gonna be around for long.

[spurraider21]

Pop not gonna stay for too long also.
pop signed a multiyear extension this summer tbh

[apalisoc_9]

I've made a thread about this last year and this year..

I have said numerous times, Kawhi doesn't really have a good reason to stay..

He is a kid even TD, Manu, Tony wanted touches and minutes when they were young...He's barely averaging over 30 and shots a little bit over 12 shots a game. He's not going to stay in San Antonio..He's not going to get his Glory if he stays here

[loveforthegame]

Cause they keep promising him he's the future of the franchise? I don't know. I got nothing.

Doesn't matter though. Spurs match whatever other teams throw at him. It's really up to Leonard what kind of deal he signs now.

[wildchild]

Cause they keep promising him he's the future of the franchise? I don't know. I got nothing.

He can trust...? No-extension, no bigger role this season, and maybe no-max contract next summer. A rare interpretation of "face of the franchise" for the Spurs...


Spurs match whatever other teams throw at him. It's really up to Leonard what kind of deal he signs now.
Agree, he won't sign the QO if another team offer him a short-term max contract, then the Spurs will match...and he will leave the team in 2017.

I've said before, there is not incentive for Leonard to stay in SA after 2017.
No Tim/Pop/Manu, a small market/rebuilding team, and he'll have the opportunity to play for a real contender in a big market (which is supposedly his agent wants)

[ElNono]

Why would Tim and Manu staying one more year matter on a four or five year deal? Either way, Kawhi knows they're not gonna be around for long.

Because like it or not, it's going to be a turning point for the franchise. If they stay, he knows that he has at least one year where the team will still likely contend. He won't get that in a lot of places. Now if you remove that, there's less of a reason to stick around due to the stuff I mentioned in the OP.

[apalisoc_9]

He can trust...? No-extension, no bigger role this season, and maybe no-max contract next summer. A rare interpretation of "face of the franchise" for the Spurs...


Agree, he won't sign the QO if another team offer him a short max contract, then the Spurs will match...and he will leave the team in 2017.

I've said before, there is not incentive for Leonard to stay in SA after 2017.
No Tim/Pop/Manu, a small market/rebuilding team, and he'll have the opportunity to play for a real contender in a big market (which is supposedly his agent wants)

Yup..

Plus, the Parker factor is going to ruin everything..

That contract is awful. Plus I wouldn't want to play with a PG that Ignores me for stretches when I just had 16 freaking points in the first half..

[daslicer]

He will stay simply because he's a restricted FA and the spurs will match whatever offer he gets. Pretty stupid thread this is considering this is the type of thread that should come up in 2019 when he will be an unrestricted FA.

[rasuo214]

Pop would be the main reason, I think Kawhi holds quite a bit of loyalty to Pop and as long as Pop is around Kawhi would stay. After that who knows, hopefully the team would have either still been successful or have rebuilt a new core.

[wildchild]

Yup..

Plus, the Parker factor is going to ruin everything..

That contract is awful. Plus I wouldn't want to play with a PG that Ignores me for stretches when I just had 16 freaking points in the first half..

Sadly Tony's contract will become toxic next seasons

[Bynumite]

He will stay simply because he knows he will be exposed as an overrated scrub outside of Pop's system a la Jim Duncan circa 2004.

[wildchild]

He will stay simply because he's a restricted FA and the spurs will match whatever offer he gets. Pretty stupid thread this is considering this is the type of thread that should come up in 2019 when he will be an unrestricted FA.

If he sign a short-term offer like Parsons, two years and one more player option, and the Spurs match, we're talking about the 2017-18 season not 2019.

[Raven]

latina bitches imo

[ElNono]

He will stay simply because he's a restricted FA and the spurs will match whatever offer he gets. Pretty stupid thread this is considering this is the type of thread that should come up in 2019 when he will be an unrestricted FA.

If he doesn't like where this team is going, he can perfectly sign the QO or a short deal and walk away a whole lot sooner than 2019. This is a decision he'll have to make this upcoming summer.

If you think he's staying, that's fine. I wouldn't doubt it.

[ElNono]

Pop would be the main reason, I think Kawhi holds quite a bit of loyalty to Pop and as long as Pop is around Kawhi would stay. After that who knows, hopefully the team would have either still been successful or have rebuilt a new core.

I actually think Pop signing that multi-year extension might have something to do with that.

[daslicer]

How many people understand the concept of restricted FA in this thread. Kawhi pretty much has no power in this situation on whether he will leave or stay. Its all up to the spurs if they want to they will be able to match any offer and keep him. If he leaves its because the spurs didn't want to give him the max. You guys are acting like this a '00 Duncan FA situation. Like I said before the spurs will have to worry about keeping Kawhi when its time for his second contract in '19 because by then he'll be an unrestricted FA. I have never seen a team in the modern era lose there star under the restricted FA system. Can anybody name me a time it has happened?

[daslicer]

If he doesn't like where this team is going, he can perfectly sign the QO or a short deal and walk away a whole lot sooner than 2019. This is a decision he'll have to make this upcoming summer.

If you think he's staying, that's fine. I wouldn't doubt it.

I see where you are coming from on the QO but then again its rare a guy signs the QO. I have yet to see it in the modern era a player pull that move. From what I have heard Kawhi's agent is hungry to get a max deal so I doubt they will wait a year to go for it. He's a young guy and like most young guys its all about the money. I could be wrong but I willing to bet he won't take the QO.

[BatManu20]

http://i62.tinypic.com/2d8q7ah.png

[ElNono]

How many people understand the concept of restricted FA in this thread. Kawhi pretty much has no power in this situation on whether he will leave or stay. Its all up to the spurs if they want to they will be able to match any offer and keep him. If he leaves its because the spurs didn't want to give him the max. You guys are acting like this a '00 Duncan FA situation. Like I said before the spurs will have to worry about keeping Kawhi when its time for his second contract in '19 because by then he'll be an unrestricted FA. I have never seen a team in the modern era lose there star under the restricted FA system. Can anybody name me a time it has happened?

- Parsons signed a short-max deal last summer
- Greg Monroe signed the QO last summer
- Eric Bledsoe was about to sign his QO until Phoenix had to overpay for his services

That's just last summer.

[daslicer]

- Parsons signed a short-max deal last summer
- Greg Monroe signed the QO last summer
- Eric Bledsoe was about to sign his QO until Phoenix had to overpay for his services

That's just last summer.

If I'm not mistaken Parson's was a second round pick so it made sense for him to make that type of move. I wouldn't count Bledsoe since he did what I expected he would which is go for the max. You do have a point with Monroe he hated playing with Josh Smith from what I have heard and that is why he did the QO. I guess for some of the Parker haters they can apply that to Kawhi.

[daslicer]

If he sign a short-term offer like Parsons, two years and one more player option, and the Spurs match, we're talking about the 2017-18 season not 2019.

I see what you are saying but then again the spurs will have him for at least two more years if he bolts he bolts. Not much you can do about it.

[ElNono]

Nick Young signed his QO on the Wizards in 2009.

This stuff happens. I don't know Kawhi is even thinking of going there, but you can have a Mark Cuban-type of move offering a short-max deal to entice the player with promises of grandeur, and the Spurs are gonna have to scramble.

[HI-FI]

ElNono, how much are you implying the Enrique aspect (contract, leadership etc....)?

[Nathan89]

The majority of the teams in the league are dysfunctional tbh. A couple more years with a competent coach is better than gambling elsewhere. Plus the fo is pretty good. However, tps contract indicates they may have lost it. The familiarity is a big advantage and he probably likes low-key aspect of the organization. Very unlikely he would leave the organization and I'm not concerned at all. Of course you can kick up dust about the slim chance of him leaving and blindly attribute the reason for him leaving is because tp. But that's looking for reasons to hate tp when impact on the court is enough already.

[daslicer]

Nick Young signed his QO on the Wizards in 2009.

This stuff happens. I don't know Kawhi is even thinking of going there, but you can have a Mark Cuban-type of move offering a short-max deal to entice the player with promises of grandeur, and the Spurs are gonna have to scramble.

Yeah its possible nobody knows what will happen. I won't stress about it but then again I have been a Spur fan since '92 so I have been through the high and lows of this franchise.

[ElNono]

ElNono, how much are you implying the Enrique aspect (contract, leadership etc....)?

Contract, like it or not, is an issue for rebuilding some sort of core, especially if this is the "new" level, since it would basically be untradeable. The saving grace is that the cap is apparently going to go up quite a bit, so maybe it won't hurt as much.

[daslicer]

Of course you can kick up dust about the slim chance of him leaving and blindly attribute the reason for him leaving is because tp. But that's looking for reasons to hate tp when impact on the court is enough already.

If that happens it would suck that he leaves but at the same time I would laugh real hard at the Kawhi fanboys going crazy in here. Could you imagine how many TP jersey's would be burned if that happened.

[Legacy]

Kawhi Leonard: 'Pretty sure I'll be in a Spurs jersey' for life (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/spurs/2014/11/11/kawhi-leonard-free-agency-future-san-antonio-vs-los-angeles-clippers-gregg-popovich/18838947/)... (<<< click for article) :cry


http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2014/07/17/coach-pop--kawhi-take-home-espy-awards/_jcr_content/media/image_0.img.jpg

[ElNono]

The majority of the teams in the league are dysfunctional tbh. A couple more years with a competent coach is better than gambling elsewhere. Plus the fo is pretty good. However, tps contract indicates they may have lost it. The familiarity is a big advantage and he probably likes low-key aspect of the organization. Very unlikely he would leave the organization and I'm not concerned at all. Of course you can kick up dust about the slim chance of him leaving and blindly attribute the reason for him leaving is because tp. But that's looking for reasons to hate tp when impact on the court is enough already.

Yeah, it's not about TP, but simply admitting the realities of our small market franchise. Our best talent has undoubtedly come from the lottery (and you have to give the FO the thumbs up on that), but that fact makes it extremely difficult to have a quick turnaround when you're losing such outstanding talent.

[Nathan89]

He can trust...? No-extension, no bigger role this season, and maybe no-max contract next summer. A rare interpretation of "face of the franchise" for the Spurs...


Agree, he won't sign the QO if another team offer him a short-term max contract, then the Spurs will match...and he will leave the team in 2017.

I've said before, there is not incentive for Leonard to stay in SA after 2017.
No Tim/Pop/Manu, a small market/rebuilding team, and he'll have the opportunity to play for a real contender in a big market (which is supposedly his agent wants)

The thread is about end of this season tbh

[daslicer]

He could leave but then again his agent is obsessed with getting max money from what I have read. I get the feeling he will want the spurs to break the bank for Kawhi. I think it will really come down to money more so than anything else but we'll see.

[wildchild]

The thread is about end of this season tbh

I said he won't sign the QO if another team offer him a short-term max deal...

But if his agent fails to find that offer and the Spurs don't max him, Leonard will sign the QO at the end of this season.

[Cane]

Minutes management for a long and healthy career
No state income tax

But if Kawhi somehow leaves, at least we still have Adam Hanga to look forward to lol

[rasuo214]

How many people understand the concept of restricted FA in this thread. Kawhi pretty much has no power in this situation on whether he will leave or stay. Its all up to the spurs if they want to they will be able to match any offer and keep him. If he leaves its because the spurs didn't want to give him the max. You guys are acting like this a '00 Duncan FA situation. Like I said before the spurs will have to worry about keeping Kawhi when its time for his second contract in '19 because by then he'll be an unrestricted FA. I have never seen a team in the modern era lose there star under the restricted FA system. Can anybody name me a time it has happened?

I'm pretty sure people know he is a RFA, I think the question is referring to why would he sign a 4 or 5 year deal. I also think other teams know not to offer the 4 year max because the Spurs would likely match so they might try the Parsons route.

[exstatic]

He will stay simply because he knows he will be exposed as an overrated scrub outside of Pop's system a la Jim Duncan circa 2004.

You're a fucking idiot. Tim Duncan was the best basketball player on the planet from 2002-2004.

[romain.star]

Sadly Tony's contract will become toxic next seasons

If he keeps on playing that shitty, that contract (which looked like a bargain when signed) is indeed gonna be quite an issue for the immediate post Duncan/Manu area.

[Nathan89]

CIA FO using Tony to tank post Duncan:lol

[hyhy]

I remember there were interviews where kawhi was talking about how he is not unhappy about the lack of touches now as he will get more touches when the vets retire, about how he has to prepare himself to step-up when that happens.

[elemento]

Zero chance Kawhi signs a QO

It happened with Monroe and Nick Young because the rest of the league didn't want to pay what they wanted either. Monroe wanted a max contract and Young wanted a 10m+/year contract.
That's not gonna happen with Leonard simply because there are several teams willing to give Kawhi the max if SA refuses to do so. And SA had no reason to give him a max extension before exploring the market using the cap hit of his QO .

Also, the Parsons route won't work with Kawhi. Before signing any deal, he can simply reach an agreement with SAS FO signing a full 4/5 max extension with a PO in the last year or any way he wants. Parsons never had that option because Morey didn't think he was max player in the first place and that's why Cuban's strategy to give him a short-term deal paid off.

Kawhi is a lock to stay. I don't even think Spurs fans should be worried about it.

[DMX7]

Cojo and Green are still a very nice backcourt + Tim will be here at least one more season IMO.

[in2deep]

Kawhi is the kind of guy who doesn't care much of who stays of leaves the Spurs. He is not a relationship kind of guy. If he's offered the max and he likes the chances of the team, he will stay, otherwise he'll be gone.

he does not seem like the type to give 2nd shits at "missing" guys or teams

[Mikeanaro]

He will stay, Kiwi is not the big market kind of guy maybe killing Enrique will fix things a bit.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Tough question for STers : Would you accept Kawhi going somewhere if it meant Harlem and his apalisoc echo go with him too?

[K...]

It's far more likely that is kawhi leaves via a trade. The spurs are not going to let their best asset just leave. But if it's a true rebuild and kawhi wants to leave i think the spurs and k will work it out.

[hater]

:lmao what a stupid thread

kawhi doesn't give a fuck about Manu and Duncan.

[Diego20]

:lmao what a stupid thread

kawhi doesn't give a fuck about Manu and Duncan.

Neither does Enrique about Kawhi, so that's the problem here..

[EVAY]

I wonder if Parker would be willing to re-negotiate his contract to make it easier for the FO to attract more people. There is precedent for it.

When Duncan was making $22 M a year in his last year before he signed this contract for a lot less, people were saying that Parker was getting too little.

Duncan took less as he declined. Manu took less as he declined. Sean ****** re-negotiated his contract to allow the money he had been promised to be spread over a much longer period. This was after his kidney surgery, IIRC. If Pop asked him to do it, I think Parker might be willing to go along with it.

None of these guys need the gazillions they have made, and if they take it over a longer time it will still be there - just later.

[EVAY]

Tough question for STers : Would you accept Kawhi going somewhere if it meant Harlem and his apalisoc echo go with him too?

Damn...that's a hell of a temptation, isn't it?

[in2deep]

Tough question for STers : Would you accept Kawhi going somewhere if it meant Harlem and his apalisoc echo go with him too?

they would just be replaced by another couple of moronic posters. so no deal

[Mel_13]

How many people understand the concept of restricted FA in this thread.

Folks should read this. Especially the part about the maximum qualifying offer. Less hysteria that way.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q44

[taps]

Shitrakers

[ElNono]

It happened with Monroe and Nick Young because the rest of the league didn't want to pay what they wanted either. Monroe wanted a max contract and Young wanted a 10m+/year contract.
That's not gonna happen with Leonard simply because there are several teams willing to give Kawhi the max if SA refuses to do so. And SA had no reason to give him a max extension before exploring the market using the cap hit of his QO.

I thought the Pistons did offer Monroe the max (or at least there were rumors about that). I'm just not sure people that tasted glory want to be in a rebuilding situation, be it the Spurs or teams like Milwaukee, Charlotte, etc...

[daslicer]

I think Kawhi will not take the QO. You gotta look at it from this perspective he's young and is looking for a big payday. Its pretty risky to play for 1 year and risk getting hurt. That is one of the major reasons most guys don't go for the QO.

[Mel_13]

I thought the Pistons did offer Monroe the max (or at least there were rumors about that)

They didn't. There were rumors that of some other team(s) that was willing to pay the max in a sign and trade.

There's absolutely no history of a player turning down a max contract to take a QO.

[ElNono]

They didn't. There were rumors that of some other team(s) that was willing to pay the max in a sign and trade.

There's absolutely no history of a player turning down a max contract to take a QO.

There were certainly these kind of comments floating around:

Monroe and the Pistons could not agree on an extension, and even if the Pistons had offered Monroe a max contract, there was a strong chance Monroe would’ve declined. In four seasons with Detroit, Monroe has played for four coaches, and the Pistons have not won more than 30 games in any of those seasons.

Monroe’s representatives steered other teams from presenting Monroe with an offer sheet because they didn’t want the Pistons to match and keep Monroe for another four seasons. Now, Monroe will have freedom to pick his next team, and that’s what he wanted: control of his future.

There is some risk in signing a qualifying offer – Monroe could get hurt or have a down season. But Monroe, the No. 7 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, has missed just three games in his career, and new Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy will still have to utilize Monroe, even with center Andre Drummond.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/07/report-strong-chance-greg-monroe-would-have-declined-max-contract-offer-from-pistons/

Funny thing about Monroe is, would he sign an extension now that the Pistons are looking good?

[james evans]

Parker not knowing his role will ultimately lead to Kawhi leaving the team...
I thought the very same thing last night. If the spurs want to keep their loyalty with an aging pg with 2 years max left to play, that would be one of the dumbest mistakes ever. Move him to the bench or ship him out

[SnakeBoy]

5 rings but Kawhi won't stay because the Spurs can't attract any talent...uh ok.

[ElNono]

5 rings but Kawhi won't stay because the Spurs can't attract any talent...uh ok.

The scenario here is that the core that gave you those 5 rings is retiring. When you start looking at the top 5 players of that 5 rings run, they were all picked up in the draft (DRob, Tim, Manu, TP, Kawhi). The only "big" splash the Spurs really did in FA was RJ, a monumental disaster, and a player that was obviously far from his peak level.

[Mel_13]

There were certainly these kind of comments floating around:

Monroe and the Pistons could not agree on an extension, and even if the Pistons had offered Monroe a max contract, there was a strong chance Monroe would’ve declined. In four seasons with Detroit, Monroe has played for four coaches, and the Pistons have not won more than 30 games in any of those seasons.

Monroe’s representatives steered other teams from presenting Monroe with an offer sheet because they didn’t want the Pistons to match and keep Monroe for another four seasons. Now, Monroe will have freedom to pick his next team, and that’s what he wanted: control of his future.

There is some risk in signing a qualifying offer – Monroe could get hurt or have a down season. But Monroe, the No. 7 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, has missed just three games in his career, and new Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy will still have to utilize Monroe, even with center Andre Drummond.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/07/report-strong-chance-greg-monroe-would-have-declined-max-contract-offer-from-pistons/

Funny thing about Monroe is, would he sign an extension now that the Pistons are looking good?

Good question. The Pistons certainly look like a better organization in January than they did in July.

As for that unsourced speculation, it doesn't apply to Kawhi's situation.

[Mel_13]

The scenario here is that the core that gave you those 5 rings is retiring. When you start looking at the top 5 players of that 5 rings run, they were all picked up in the draft (DRob, Tim, Manu, TP, Kawhi). The only "big" splash the Spurs really did in FA was RJ, a monumental disaster, and a player that was obviously far from his peak level.

RJ was acquired in a trade. The Spurs haven't used cap space to acquire a free agent since 2003. The notion that big money free agents won't come to SA has not been tested in a dozen years.

[ElNono]

Good question. The Pistons certainly look like a better organization in January than they did in July.

As for that unsourced speculation, it doesn't apply to Kawhi's situation.

I would agree with that. The other option that was not brought up yet, but it's certainly possible is that he can always force his way out of the team at a later date if he feels he's wasting his time. It would be ugly, but it's been done many times before.

[ElNono]

RJ was acquired in a trade. The Spurs haven't used cap space to acquire a free agent since 2003. The notion that big money free agents won't come to SA has not been tested in a dozen years.

Since the courting of Jason Kidd?

[Mel_13]

I would agree with that. The other option that was not brought up yet, but it's certainly possible is that he can always force his way out of the team at a later date if he feels he's wasting his time. It would be ugly, but it's been done many times before.

Always possible, but it seems unlikely. When you really get down to it, how many franchises in the NBA can you say will definitely will be contenders over the next 5-10 years? Melo found out that forcing your way out is only half the battle.

[Mel_13]

Since the courting of Jason Kidd?

Yup.

[SnakeBoy]

The scenario here is that the core that gave you those 5 rings is retiring. When you start looking at the top 5 players of that 5 rings run, they were all picked up in the draft (DRob, Tim, Manu, TP, Kawhi). The only "big" splash the Spurs really did in FA was RJ, a monumental disaster, and a player that was obviously far from his peak level.

You are basically making the argument that the Spurs unmatched ability to find and retain great talent is the reason they won't be able to find and retain great talent. Money and taking backseat to the core have been the problem in landing big free agents. Once the core is gone those won't be issues. If you want to think Kawhi is sitting around questioning if the Spurs know how to put together a great team then enjoy your fantasy.

[ElNono]

Always possible, but it seems unlikely. When you really get down to it, how many franchises in the NBA can you say will definitely will be contenders over the next 5-10 years? Melo found out that forcing your way out is only half the battle.

Well, of course it's difficult to tell, but wouldn't that make small markets less appealing? If there's no certainty about direction, wouldn't it make more sense to sign up on a place where the revenue and exposure would be higher?

One of the favorable points I made in the OP is franchise stability, and I think that's underrated. For example, you would suspect the Lakers would be an enticing destination right about now, considering their cap situation, etc. But that FO is a mess.

I know his agent just wants the money, and he'll likely get that money from a lot of teams, but the career aspect can be a tricky decision.

[daslicer]

they would just be replaced by another couple of moronic posters. so no deal

:lol I have to admit that cracked me up.

[Mel_13]

Well, of course it's difficult to tell, but wouldn't that make small markets less appealing? If there's no certainty about direction, wouldn't it make more sense to sign up on a place where the revenue and exposure would be higher?

One of the favorable points I made in the OP is franchise stability, and I think that's underrated. For example, you would suspect the Lakers would be an enticing destination right about now, considering their cap situation, etc. But that FO is a mess.

I know his agent just wants the money, and he'll likely get that money from a lot of teams, but the career aspect can be a tricky decision.

That's where a lot of this sort of discussion goes off the rails, IMO. None of us really knows what Kawhi's priorities are, and many here will project there own desires and emotions into the situation. Kawhi has said he wants to stay in SA for the long term. Until I hear otherwise from him, that's what I'll go with.

[ElNono]

You are basically making the argument that the Spurs unmatched ability to find and retain great talent is the reason they won't be able to find and retain great talent. Money and taking backseat to the core have been the problem in landing big free agents. Once the core is gone those won't be issues. If you want to think Kawhi is sitting around questioning if the Spurs know how to put together a great team then enjoy your fantasy.

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that when it comes to luring top of the line FAs, the Spurs have, at the very least, an unproven record.

Money-wise, the two players walking away make a combined $17m... that's borderline one max deal (depending on how many years the guy that you're hiring has played), which is basically what Kawhi would be taking as his deal (until we get cap figures, it's difficult to know with certainty), and the Spurs already are committed to nearly $30m (+ that max deal) in salaries for the next two seasons.

There's nothing questionable about thinking that when two HoF walk away from your team you're going to cease being a contender until somehow you re-acquire superlative talent, IMO.

[ElNono]

That's where a lot of this sort of discussion goes off the rails, IMO. None of us really knows what Kawhi's priorities are, and many here will project there own desires and emotions into the situation. Kawhi has said he wants to stay in SA for the long term. Until I hear otherwise from him, that's what I'll go with.

The entire thread is about everyone opinions, tbh. I actually asked peeps to put themselves in Kiwi's shoes. It's not meant to be a scientific study or anything like that, just a gathering of thoughts.

BTW, it looks like we did court Pau in the offseason, looking at the comments he made last night. Whether he ended up in Chitown because of money or something else, we'll probably never know.

I'm also on the camp that he's staying, and that the Spurs will max him out.

[Mel_13]

The entire thread is about everyone opinions, tbh. I actually asked peeps to put themselves in Kiwi's shoes. It's not meant to be a scientific study or anything like that, just a gathering of thoughts.

BTW, it looks like we did court Pau in the offseason, looking at the comments he made last night. Whether he ended up in Chitown because of money or something else, we'll probably never know.

I'm also on the camp that he's staying, and that the Spurs will max him out.

The Pau comments are nothing new. The Spurs' pursuit was well documented in July. The situation he chose offered more money, a better role, and a lesser conference. We'll never know precisely what drove his decision, but the fact that it was a close call, despite all of the advantages enjoyed by Chicago, actually speaks well of the Spurs as a destination.

And sure, these threads are always about opinions, some more informed than others.

[Mel_13]

What I'm saying is that when it comes to luring top of the line FAs, the Spurs have, at the very least, an unproven record.

Which franchises have proven records in that regard?

[ElNono]

Which franchises have proven records in that regard?

Off the top of my head: Miami, Knicks, Houston, Dallas...

[Mel_13]

Off the top of my head: Miami, Knicks, Houston, Dallas...

All mixed bags of successes and failures, with the failures outnumbering the successes.

[Mr Bones]

He's not going to stay in San Antonio..He's not going to get his Glory if he stays here

I don't think Kawhi thinks in "Getting Glory" terms... That's you. Kawhi has a quieter personality, like Duncan, who also stayed despite having the choice to go to any city or franchise, even those with much more money to spend building teams...

We can argue this all day, but let's make it interesting: Wanna bet $100 right now that Kawhi signs with San Antonio this summer?

[ElNono]

All mixed bags of successes and failures, with the failures outnumbering the successes.

They've all proven they can attract such FAs. The Spurs have no such record, at the very least in recent memory.

[Ditty]

I think Kawhi understands that he isn't going to be a franchise player, because of his limited playmaking skills. He will get the max, because the Spurs are not going to want there only promising player 5+ years down the line to go, and from what I've heard he really likes San Antonio possibly because of the small city feeling. What is going to be interesting is what is going to happen when Manu and Duncan retire. The Spurs will have the talent to be mediocre, but not be bad enough to be able to get a top 10 pick imo. I think the players that would be nice in Spurs uniform will end up resigning with there teams. I hate to say this I can see them fighting for an 8th seed for about 2-3 years. Maybe they will get lucky, and could trade some of there assets for a very good player like Houston did. I just think Spurs will blow it up when they realize they aren't good the season after Duncan and Manu retire, and possibly trade Parker and even Green if he resigns to try to get draft picks and hope that whoever the next coach will be can turn these draft picks into really good players.

[Mel_13]

They've all proven they can attract such FAs. The Spurs have no such record, at the very least in recent memory.

Swing often enough and you'll occasionally make contact. All the failures prove that there's nothing particularly special about any of those places. Players also signed big money deals in places like Minnesota and Charlotte.

[ElNono]

Swing often enough and you'll occasionally make contact. All the failures prove that there's nothing particularly special about any of those places. Players also signed big money deals in places like Minnesota and Charlotte.

Every player is a different beast, and I'm certainly a guy that believes much more often than not, the player goes for the money (which is perfectly understandable). Maybe we've been spoiled with guys that have taken less to make sure we have a competitive team around, which is certainly not common in this league. But I also think certain other things matter too, like talent attracting talent (recent examples in Howard going to the Rockets or Love to the Cavs, further down the line on the Spurs with Horry, McDyess, Finley, though certainly more towards the end of their careers). I don't think the Spurs will have such lure until they have that first piece, and I'm uncertain right now that Kawhi himself can be that piece.

[Richie]

Because he's a restricted free agent

[Mel_13]

Every player is a different beast, and I'm certainly a guy that believes much more often than not, the player goes for the money (which is perfectly understandable). Maybe we've been spoiled with guys that have taken less to make sure we have a competitive team around, which is certainly not common in this league. But I also think certain other things matter too, like talent attracting talent (recent examples in Howard going to the Rockets or Love to the Cavs, further down the line on the Spurs with Horry, McDyess, Finley, though certainly more towards the end of their careers). I don't think the Spurs will have such lure until they have that first piece, and I'm uncertain right now that Kawhi himself can be that piece.

Can't argue with notion that the Spurs' future post-Duncan is uncertain, to say the least. There are far more teams in the NBA than there are players of the sort you mention.

I'm of the opinion that they'll remain a successful organization for as long Holt owns the team and RC runs the team (I assume Pop will retire in the next few years). Whether they can be perennial contenders as they've been for almost two decades is doubtful, but that sort of success is extremely rare.

[SnakeBoy]

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that when it comes to luring top of the line FAs, the Spurs have, at the very least, an unproven record.

Money-wise, the two players walking away make a combined $17m... that's borderline one max deal (depending on how many years the guy that you're hiring has played), which is basically what Kawhi would be taking as his deal (until we get cap figures, it's difficult to know with certainty), and the Spurs already are committed to nearly $30m (+ that max deal) in salaries for the next two seasons.

There's nothing questionable about thinking that when two HoF walk away from your team you're going to cease being a contender until somehow you re-acquire superlative talent, IMO.

Relax, Kawhi will be a Spur next year.

[ElNono]

Relax, Kawhi will be a Spur next year.

I'm relaxed. I think it will more than just next year, tbh... certainly hope so...

[DPG21920]

This is a subtle goods type thread, impressive. I haven't seen this quality of the subtle goodness in a long, long time. However, taking all bs out of the OP, first just look to other teams in all scenarios:

1) What teams have cap space next year (reasonably, not by magically dumping all their players) to offer Kawhi a max contract.

o Within that subset of teams - how many have won titles and/or are title contenders with Kawhi next year and longer term?

2) Assuming the pretty far-fetched idea that Kawhi takes the QO, what teams the year after have cap space (reasonably, not magically by dumping all of their players) to offer Kawhi a max contract.

o Within that subset of teams - how many have won titles and/or are title contenders with Kawhi next year and longer term?

So even taking the Spurs out of the equation totally and just looking at things outside the Spurs, the answer to those questions leaves you with a pretty damn small subset of teams. You have to assume, based on the OP, that winning is a huge factor in these assumptions which narrows things down quite a bit. If it were just about money, the Spurs can pay him the most and all of the OP is moot.

Since the OP is assuming winning is incredibly important, there are very few teams with both the cap space & roster in place that have proven they can win a title in the last 15 years and/or that can seriously contend while having max money too.

Then when you look at the Spurs there are many obvious reasons as to why he would stay logically, outside of money (which the Spurs have the edge).

o Kawhi's own words - he has flat out said he would likely be a lifetime Spur. That he values playing for one team. That carries the most weight since it's the most credible known source to date.

o Kawhi's comfort level - He, from his own words and observations of others, seems to be a low-key person. SA has proven to be about as good as it gets for players with that demeanor (see: Duncan, Tim).

o Coach: He has the best coach in the NBA.

o System: He has a system he is comfortable in and growing in. We've seen in the past, learning new systems can be difficult. Many players (histrocially) seem to value stability and systems they know work for their skillset.

o Talent: Even sans Tim/Manu, the team still has very good talent and some wiggle room to add more.

o Track Record: No team in the past 15 years has a better track record of winning and sustaining than SA.

o Loyalty - this is the most overrated term in sports, but there probably is a bit of loyalty that factors in, especially when the Spurs can pay the most money too.

So, in conclusion, when you look at both external (most important) and internal (still very important) factors, the underlying premise of the OP seems highly unlikely. Possible? Yes. Likely? A resounding no.

[DAF86]

Because he is a restricted Free agent.

[ElNono]

This is a subtle goods type thread, impressive. I haven't seen this quality of the subtle goodness in a long, long time. However, taking all bs out of the OP, first just look to other teams in all scenarios:

1) What teams have cap space next year (reasonably, not by magically dumping all their players) to offer Kawhi a max contract.

o Within that subset of teams - how many have won titles and/or are title contenders with Kawhi next year and longer term?

2) Assuming the pretty far-fetched idea that Kawhi takes the QO, what teams the year after have cap space (reasonably, not magically by dumping all of their players) to offer Kawhi a max contract.

o Within that subset of teams - how many have won titles and/or are title contenders with Kawhi next year and longer term?

So even taking the Spurs out of the equation totally and just looking at things outside the Spurs, the answer to those questions leaves you with a pretty damn small subset of teams. You have to assume, based on the OP, that winning is a huge factor in these assumptions which narrows things down quite a bit. If it were just about money, the Spurs can pay him the most and all of the OP is moot.

Since the OP is assuming winning is possible, there are very few teams with both the cap space & roster in place that have proven they can win a title in the last 15 years and/or that can seriously contend while having max money too.

Then when you look at the Spurs there are many obvious reasons as to why he would stay logically, outside of money (which the Spurs have the edge).

o Kawhi's own words - he has flat out said he would likely be a lifetime Spur. That he values playing for one team. That carries the most weight since it's the most credible known source to date.

o Kawhi's comfort level - He, from his own words and observations of others, seems to be a low-key person. SA has proven to be about as good as it gets for players with that demeanor (see: Duncan, Tim).

o Coach: He has the best coach in the NBA.

o System: He has a system he is comfortable in and growing in. We've seen in the past, learning new systems can be difficult. Many players (histrocially) seem to value stability and systems they know work for their skillset.

o Talent: Even sans Tim/Manu, the team still has very good talent and some wiggle room to add more.

o Track Record: No team in the past 15 years has a better track record of winning and sustaining than SA.

o Loyalty - this is the most overrated term in sports, but there probably is a bit of loyalty that factors in, especially when the Spurs can pay the most money too.

So, in conclusion, when you look at both external (most important) and internal (still very important) factors, the underlying premise of the OP seems highly unlikely. Possible? Yes. Likely? A resounding no.

Very good, thought out post. That's why you're one of the better posters here, tbh. Thanks.

I was actually thinking also on who those teams could be. OKC is probably the team that I would 'fear' the most, if not for the owner being a cheapskate. I could be wrong on this (I'm sure Mel_13 will correct me), but they could offer Kiwi the max after next season, then resign KD through bird rights also to a max deal, correct?

[SnakeBoy]

I'm relaxed. I think it will more than just next year, tbh... certainly hope so...

I should have said Kawhi will be a Spur for at least one year after Tim/Manu walk away. Kawhi has proven he is a max player in todays NBA but, despite all of the nuthugging on here, he has not proven he can be a player you can build a team around. It's entirely possible that a year of him being "the man" ends up with the Spurs trading him. Rebuilding is an unpredictable process. I'm actually looking forward to it just to see epic levels of meltdown on ST.

[ElNono]

I should have said Kawhi will be a Spur for at least one year after Tim/Manu walk away. Kawhi has proven he is a max player in todays NBA but, despite all of the nuthugging on here, he has not proven he can be a player you can build a team around. It's entirely possible that a year of him being "the man" ends up with the Spurs trading him. Rebuilding is an unpredictable process. I'm actually looking forward to it just to see epic levels of meltdown on ST.

:lol

[Mel_13]

I was actually thinking also on who those teams could be. OKC is probably the team that I would 'fear' the most, if not for the owner being a cheapskate. I could be wrong on this (I'm sure Mel_13 will correct me), but they could offer Kiwi the max after next season, then resign KD through bird rights also to a max deal, correct?

Durant's cap hold will be more than 22M. RW and Ibaka will combine to make 30M. So 52M for three players. Extremely unlikely that they'll be a major player in the 2016 FA market unless KD goes somewhere else.

[SnakeBoy]

:lol

Shit's gonna be good :lol

[ElNono]

Durant's cap hold will be more than 22M. RW and Ibaka will combine to make 30M. So 52M for three players. Extremely unlikely that they'll be a major player in the 2016 FA market unless KD goes somewhere else.

Isn't the cap for that year projected at $81m now?

[DPG21920]

Echo what Mel said. That's not even considering Reggie Jackson too. Even if the cap goes to 70m+ they won't have cap space next year for a max deal (without gutting their roster down to no one but KD/WB/SI - which would be next to impossible to do considering they have guys with guaranteed deals next year outside of the big 3). Even if Kawhi signed a QO and waited until the year after next, OKC would still have the same issue because of Durants cap hold.

Plus, in the OKC scenario, we established that winning is important and they haven't proven they can win a title ; )

[ElNono]

Echo what Mel said. That's not even considering Reggie Jackson too. Even if the cap goes to 70m+ they won't have cap space next year for a max deal (without gutting their roster down to no one but KD/WB/SI - which would be next to impossible to do considering they have guys with guaranteed deals next year outside of the big 3). Even if Kawhi signed a QO and waited until the year after next, OKC would still have the same issue because of Durants cap hold.

Plus, in the OKC scenario, we established that winning is important and they haven't proven they can win a title ; )

Very true, tbh

[DPG21920]

Isn't the cap for that year projected at $81m now?

It could be, but that is more likely to be the luxury tax number IMO. But, right now the cap is estimated to be around 66M next year, with a chance to push into the 70M range.

[Mel_13]

Isn't the cap for that year projected at $81m now?

Only if there's some sort of 'smoothing'. 2016-17 is the first year of the new TV deal, so those revenues won't impact the salary cap until the summer of 2017 unless there is an agreement for smoothing.

[DPG21920]

Very good, thought out post. That's why you're one of the better posters here, tbh. Thanks.

I was actually thinking also on who those teams could be. OKC is probably the team that I would 'fear' the most, if not for the owner being a cheapskate. I could be wrong on this (I'm sure Mel_13 will correct me), but they could offer Kiwi the max after next season, then resign KD through bird rights also to a max deal, correct?

What a strange thing for your iPhone to autocorrect "best" to "one of the better".

[Mel_13]

While we're talking hypotheticals, Kawhi would have to abandon that whole "focal point" thing in order to play on a team with KD and RW.

[ElNono]

Only if there's some sort of 'smoothing'. 2016-17 is the first year of the new TV deal, so those revenues won't impact the salary cap until the summer of 2017 unless there is an agreement for smoothing.

thanks

[ElNono]

What a strange thing for your iPhone to autocorrect "best" to "one of the better".

I was using the Nexus 7 when I typed that... sorry...

[ElNono]

While we're talking hypotheticals, Kawhi would have to abandon that whole "focal point" thing in order to play on a team with KD and RW.

So far, that's the role he had here offensively, more or less... I do think they would be a lock to contend for a while if they get all those 3 guys together. The main thing OKC is lacking, IMO, is that elite perimeter defender, Kawhi would be amazing there.

Good thing there's little chance of happening, tbh

[DPG21920]

Spurs aren't guaranteed nearly anywhere close to the success they have had with Duncan/Pop/TP/Manu because that's pretty much impossible. Even for teams with deep pockets and built in advantages.

They key is who is more likely to have what's considered to be normal success and the Spurs have to be given the benefit of the doubt. It's going to likely be rough, but it's also exciting to see how PATFO do post Tim/Manu.

[Mel_13]

Only if there's some sort of 'smoothing'. 2016-17 is the first year of the new TV deal, so those revenues won't impact the salary cap until the summer of 2017 unless there is an agreement for smoothing.

Nope. That's wrong. The new deal will impact the 2016-17 cap. An 80M cap for that summer is a possible. Will depend on any smoothing as well as how the TV contract is structured (i.e., equal amounts over the length of the deal or increasing amounts from year to year).

[ElNono]

Personally, not looking forward to the post TD/Manu era, tbh... I know it's inevitable, but I think it's going to be incredibly rough, IMO.

[Mel_13]

So far, that's the role he had here offensively, more or less... I do think they would be a lock to contend for a while if they get all those 3 guys together. The main thing OKC is lacking, IMO, is that elite perimeter defender, Kawhi would be amazing there.

Good thing there's little chance of happening, tbh

Right, but the OP suggested he would want to be convinced that he would be the focal point of some tbd future team.

[ElNono]

Nope. That's wrong. The new deal will impact the 2016-17 cap. An 80M cap for that summer is a possible. Will depend on any smoothing as well as how the TV contract is structured (i.e., equal amounts over the length of the deal or increasing amounts from year to year).

IIRC, I read current projections at $65m for next season and $81m for the one afterwards. Thought nothing is set in stone until the actual figures come out.

[ElNono]

Right, but the OP suggested he would want to be convinced that he would be the focal point of some tbd future team.

I think the scenario changes if he's going to a sure-fire 'stacked' team (more or less what the Spurs have been the last couple seasons). If he's going to be basically the main centerpiece of a team (which IMO he would be by resigning with us), I would think getting more involved is something he would appreciate.

[Mel_13]

IIRC, I read current projections at $65m for next season and $81m for the one afterwards. Thought nothing is set in stone until the actual figures come out.

Yeah, I just went back and read a couple of the reliable articles from when the deal was announced.

Even so, OKC is an unlikely player. KD's cap hold would be much larger, the first year salary for a max player like Kawhi would be higher and they still have 9 other roster spots to fill. With an 80M cap, KD, RW, Ibaka, and a max player would account for well over 70M in salaries, likely close to 75M. Then Russ will get a huge raise in 2017.

[SnakeBoy]

Personally, not looking forward to the post TD/Manu era, tbh... I know it's inevitable, but I think it's going to be incredibly rough, IMO.

If Kawhi can, as Carlesimo recently said "solve the riddle of dribble penetration", and develop a softer shooting touch then we're looking at Jordan 2.0 and good times ahead. If not, we might have to learn to be happy with just making the playoffs for years or even decades.

[Mel_13]

I think the scenario changes if he's going to a sure-fire 'stacked' team (more or less what the Spurs have been the last couple seasons). If he's going to be basically the main centerpiece of a team (which IMO he would be by resigning with us), I would think getting more involved is something he would appreciate.

:lol

I get it. Subtle indeed.

[Mel_13]

Man, still 5 hours until gametime. Cold, rainy Friday in San Antonio...

[ElNono]

Yeah, I just went back and read a couple of the reliable articles from when the deal was announced.

Even so, OKC is an unlikely player. KD's cap hold would be much larger, the first year salary for a max player like Kawhi would be higher and they still have 9 other roster spots to fill. With an 80M cap, KD, RW, Ibaka, and a max player would account for well over 70M in salaries, likely close to 75M. Then Russ will get a huge raise in 2017.

Yeah, plus I still doubt ownership there is as committed... I wouldn't be surprised at all if KD walks either.

[ElNono]

Man, still 5 hours until gametime. Cold, rainy Friday in San Antonio...

Freezing here in NJ... hate the NE winter, tbh...

[ElNono]

If Kawhi can, as Carlesimo recently said "solve the riddle of dribble penetration", and develop a softer shooting touch then we're looking at Jordan 2.0 and good times ahead. If not, we might have to learn to be happy with just making the playoffs for years or even decades.

We can always look forward to some jersey retirement ceremonies too, tbh

[Mel_13]

We can always look forward to some jersey retirement ceremonies too, tbh

And HOF inductions. :cry

[ElNono]

I wonder if Parker would be willing to re-negotiate his contract to make it easier for the FO to attract more people. There is precedent for it.

When Duncan was making $22 M a year in his last year before he signed this contract for a lot less, people were saying that Parker was getting too little.

Duncan took less as he declined. Manu took less as he declined. Sean ****** re-negotiated his contract to allow the money he had been promised to be spread over a much longer period. This was after his kidney surgery, IIRC. If Pop asked him to do it, I think Parker might be willing to go along with it.

None of these guys need the gazillions they have made, and if they take it over a longer time it will still be there - just later.

Tony has a kid now, and if this nagging injuries continue, he might have to cut his career a little shorter. Perhaps stretching his deal would be a possibility, but I can't blame him if he doesn't want to leave money on the table, tbh.

[Mel_13]

I wonder if Parker would be willing to re-negotiate his contract to make it easier for the FO to attract more people. There is precedent for it.

When Duncan was making $22 M a year in his last year before he signed this contract for a lot less, people were saying that Parker was getting too little.

Duncan took less as he declined. Manu took less as he declined. Sean ****** re-negotiated his contract to allow the money he had been promised to be spread over a much longer period. This was after his kidney surgery, IIRC. If Pop asked him to do it, I think Parker might be willing to go along with it.

None of these guys need the gazillions they have made, and if they take it over a longer time it will still be there - just later.

Tony just signed that extension over the summer. It's a done deal and can't be changed. Duncan's salary drop was from the last year of one contract to the first year of the next contract. That case provides no precedent for Tony's current situation.

[024]

Because he's a restricted free agent
And pretty much no one walks away from their first big contract after their rookie deal. Max players after their rookie deals almost never sign with another team. I don't even remember the last player to do so.

[EVAY]

Tony just signed that extension over the summer. It's a done deal and can't be changed. Duncan's salary drop was from the last year of one contract to the first year of the next contract. That case provides no precedent for Tony's current situation.

I understand the timing of the two contracts (Duncan and Parker's). I mean, if both parties agree, couldn't they just re-structure the contract the pay it out over a longer period of time? When Sean re-set his contract payment, was it at the start of a new contract or was it adjusted with the agreement of both parties to the adjustment?

[Mel_13]

I understand the timing of the two contracts (Duncan and Parker's). I mean, if both parties agree, couldn't they just re-structure the contract the pay it out over a longer period of time?

Not possible under the current CBA.

[EVAY]

Not possible under the current CBA.

Thanks for the info.

Too bad though.

[Mel_13]

Thanks for the info.

Too bad though.

FYI, the very limited circumstances where a contract renegotiation is possible are outlined here:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q61

The critical part: A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.

[milkyway21]

IF THE PG will play more as PG than trying to be an SG

[Perry Mason]

No team can guarantee success each and every year, but long-term success will always start at the top. So the fears that the Spurs will meltdown into persistent mediocrity after TD/Manu (even Pop) are overblown.

So long as Holt and RC run the Spurs, we can expect a culture that contributes to finding character guys, getting the most out of them, and thereby improving the chances of winning more than losing.

[ElNono]

No team can guarantee success each and every year, but long-term success will always start at the top. So the fears that the Spurs will meltdown into persistent mediocrity after TD/Manu (even Pop) are overblown.

So long as Holt and RC run the Spurs, we can expect a culture that contributes to finding character guys, getting the most out of them, and thereby improving the chances of winning more than losing.

We'll be certainly testing that theory anyways...

[Mikeanaro]

No team can guarantee success each and every year, but long-term success will always start at the top. So the fears that the Spurs will meltdown into persistent mediocrity after TD/Manu (even Pop) are overblown.

So long as Holt and RC run the Spurs, we can expect a culture that contributes to finding character guys, getting the most out of them, and thereby improving the chances of winning more than losing.
And what if Holt fires RC and sells the team? :wow

[ducks]

texas cheaper taxes

[DMC]

Kawhi has already achieved more in his first few years than he's going to achieve for the rest of his career. He probably knows it's a long shot to get back to the title sans the big 3, just look at how many superstars are in the league today who've never won a ring, much less a Finals MVP.

[DMC]

And what if Holt fires RC and sells the team? :wow

He wouldn't do it in that order. The Spurs with RC are worth more than the Spurs without RC. Holt knows business.

[ElNono]

bump, relevant