American Sniper's Failure [Archive]

Nbadan

01-24-2015, 04:27 AM

The empty chair can't come soon enough....

American Sniper's Failure

The Rude Pundit pushed aside as many preconceived notions as he could when he watched American Sniper, the Clint Eastwood-directed, Oscar-nominated film about Chris Kyle, the Navy SEAL who chalked up the most kills of any sniper in the military during the Iraq war. As you may know, the film has become a political battlefield between some on the left who see it as glorifying the Iraq engagement and those on the right who see it as a celebration of the innate good of the American soldier.

And even while viewing it, the Rude Pundit thought the film had been treated unfairly by many of its critics. Sure, it offers few sympathetic Iraqis, but no one faulted Saving Private Ryan for not spending time with the nice Germans. As for the racist remarks by Bradley Cooper's Kyle and the other soldiers, well, sorry, if you want polite talk about the ostensible enemy, you probably shouldn't watch a war film. Also, Eastwood and writer Jason Hall weren't really under an obligation to hew closely to Kyle's story. It ain't a documentary.

So, really, truly, the Rude Pundit is coming at this from as open-minded a position as possible. (Does he have to list all his family members who are or were in the military?) And he thinks this:

American Sniper is a film about stupid people who were brainwashed into doing something stupid and it justifies their stupidity so that the stupid people watching can feel good about themselves. See, the one thing you can't separate out from the film is history. It tries to elide over history, but just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't there. Because of that, the overwhelming feeling the Rude Pundit had was pity, not pride.

After a set-up where Kyle is about to shoot a child in Iraq, we get what can best be described as a psycho killer origin story. Kyle learns to hunt at an early age, something his father tells him he's good at. The father fills his sons with nonsense about their place in the pecking order of the universe. This hypermasculine bullshit plays out, as it does in Texas, with Kyle becoming a rodeo rider who joins the Navy to become a SEAL after he sees the U.S. embassy attacks in 1998. That leads to his brainwashing during his training (apparently, SEALs have to constantly be wet). In short order, he meets a woman, Taya, the World Trade Center attack happens, he gets married, and then he's sent to Iraq. We get no sense that the invasion of Iraq happened 18 months after 9/11. Then, boom, we're in Iraq and the tedious pattern of the film is set: shooting people in Iraq, coming home to weepy, concerned wife, rinse, repeat for four tours.

Ultimately, the film fails not because it doesn't present the Iraqis in a more complex way, but because it banks on our credulity. It treats us like we're fucking idiots who are willing to forget anything about the truth behind the invasion of Iraq. It counts on our fucking idiocy in order to convey it's simplistic message that American soldiers are awesome and everyone else needs to shut the fuck up.

So we get scenes of Americans going house to house to find insurgents. They break down doors and rush in, grabbing anyone they can. When one Iraqi man protests that they are in his house, Kyle says, "I don't give a fuck it's your house." Then they berate and threaten the man until he gives up the name of a specific enemy torturer, "the Butcher." (Seriously, names in this film are dunderheaded. One soldier is, swear to Christ, "Biggles," like a fuckin' cat.) That family, the only "good" Iraqis we see, ends up having the father and a son brutally murdered. In another scene, the soldiers barge into an apartment and, more or less, take a family hostage so they can use the apartment for surveillance on some "Hajis." Of course, it turns out the father is hiding weapons. Of course, he ends up dead.

Through it all, all the people he shoots (and, truly, Bradley Cooper seems like he's acting in a different, much deeper film), all the scenes of him watching fellows soldiers get killed and wounded, all the psychological damage he does to his poor wife when he calls her during firefights, Kyle maintains a pathetic belief in the good of his mission and in the protection of his "brothers." It has an effect on him - he suffers from PTSD - but the film wants us to believe that it was necessary. So, in the end, American Sniper is the story of a dumb man who wrecked himself for a worthless cause and about all the young men (and it is all, mostly white, men in it) who were sacrificed for nothing.

It's not the film that tells us it's nothing. We know it was for nothing. We know that one of the great crimes of the new century is the invasion of Iraq for absolutely no rational, demonstrable reason. We know that all those "savages," as Kyle calls the Iraqis, that we killed were for nothing. We know that all those Americans who died lost their lives for nothing. Our military was protecting us from nothing. Our freedoms weren't at risk from Iraq.

And the lie many soldiers from Iraq cling to and the lie we tell ourselves, and the lie that so many have worked so hard to maintain, is that as long as we don't discuss that it was for nothing, as long as we pretend that the fact that soldiers fought when they were told to fight and, mostly, did so nobly, we don't have to face the truly gut-wrenching reality of our national complicity in the crime.

American Sniper exists, then, to play to that lie, to silence anyone who would point it out. Shit, once Kyle goes to war, the movie is so devoid of any rationale for being in Iraq that no one mentions Saddam Hussein or weapons of mass destruction. Even George W. Bush isn't mentioned. The film fails, too, because all it's really saying is that, if you put some soldiers somewhere and tell them to do something, they will defend each other and do the job. The fact that the leaders of their country betrayed them in the most elemental way possible never enters the equation. So all we're left with is killing Iraqis because Iraqis are trying to kill us, fuck if we care whose house it is.

At some points, the Rude Pundit wondered if Eastwood was trying to frame it this way, but, when the credits roll, after Kyle's murder at the hands of a disturbed vet, we are treated to scenes of the motorcade heading to his funeral, the streets lined with people with signs and American flags. No, then. We're supposed to feel proud that men like Kyle defend us. We should instead feel intensely angry that they died in vain.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2015/01/i-dont-give-fuck-its-your-house.html

TeyshaBlue

01-24-2015, 08:04 AM

Awww....the film didnt say what the rude pundit wanted it to.

Smh

ElNono

01-24-2015, 01:12 PM

I'm expecting Rambo with a sniper rifle, which is probably why I haven't watched it yet. Hollywood has a long history of spinning hero movies about wars...

baseline bum

01-24-2015, 01:14 PM

I'm expecting Rambo with a sniper rifle, which is probably why I haven't watched it yet. Hollywood has a long history of spinning hero movies about wars...

Did you see Rambo 3 when that nigga was fighting alongside the Taliban? Those brave mujaheddin Freedom (:cry) Fighters!

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 01:17 PM

Awww....the film didnt say what the rude pundit wanted it to.

Smh

Kyle was psychopath, by the words in his own book, and a LIAR. figgers you rednecks would venerate him

ElNono

01-24-2015, 01:29 PM

Did you see Rambo 3 when that nigga was fighting alongside the Taliban? Those brave mujaheddin Freedom (:cry) Fighters!

:cry but, he shot down an helicopter with an explosive arrow :cry

TeyshaBlue

01-24-2015, 02:11 PM

Kyle was psychopath, by the words in his own book, and a LIAR. figgers you rednecks would venerate him

lol simpleton.

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 02:22 PM

lol simpleton.

Kyle was psychopath, by the words in his own book, and a LIAR. figgers you rednecks would venerate him

TeyshaBlue

01-24-2015, 02:26 PM

:lmao

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 02:36 PM

1. The Film Suggests the Iraq War Was In Response To 9/11: One way to get audiences to unambiguously support Kyle’s actions in the film is to believe he’s there to avenge the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The movie cuts (http://www.vox.com/2015/1/21/7641189/american-sniper-history) from Kyle watching footage of the attacks to him serving in Iraq, implying there is some link between the two.

2. The Film Invents a Terrorist Sniper Who Works For Multiple Opposing Factions: Kyle’s primary antagonist in the film is a sniper named Mustafa. Mustafa is mentioned (http://www.laweekly.com/film/american-sniper-is-a-rah-rah-war-on-terror-fantasy-5304457) in a single paragraph in Kyle’s book, but the movie blows him up into an ever-present figure and Syrian Olympic medal winner who fights for both Sunni insurgents in Fallujah and the Shia Madhi army.

3. The Film Portrays Chris Kyle as Tormented By His Actions: Multiple scenes in the movie portray Kyle as haunted by his service. One of the film’s earliest reviews praised it (http://www.screendaily.com/reviews/the-latest/american-sniper/5079898.article) for showing the “emotional torment of so many military men and women.” But that torment is completely absent from the book (https://books.google.com/books?id=wiynL1yKaAEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=american+sniper&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zAbAVOuSDIGyggSZu4KwCQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=american sniper&f=false) the film is based on. In the book, Kyle refers to everyone he fought as “savage, despicable” evil. He writes, “I only wish I had killed more.” He also writes, “I loved what I did. I still do. If circumstances were different – if my family didn’t need me – I’d be back in a heartbeat. I’m not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun. I had the time of my life being a SEAL.” On an appearance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiVDtNjORbY) on Conan O’Brien’s show he laughs about accidentally shooting an Iraqi insurgent. He once told (http://www.laweekly.com/film/american-sniper-is-a-rah-rah-war-on-terror-fantasy-5304457) a military investigator that he doesn’t “shoot people with Korans. I’d like to, but I don’t.”

4. The Real Chris Kyle Made Up A Story About Killing Dozens of People In Post-Katrina New Orleans: Kyle claimed that he killed 30 people in the chaos of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, a story Louisiana writer Jarvis DeBerry calls “preposterous (http://www.nola.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/01/the_american_snipers_preposter.html).” It shows the sort of mentality post-war Kyle had, but the claim doesn’t appear in the film.

5. The Real Chris Kyle Fabricated A Story About Killing Two Men Who Tried To Carjack Him In Texas: Kyle told (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/american-sniper-decried-as-propaganda-by-some-praised-as-veterans-paean-by-others/2015/01/20/b2d597d0-a0bf-11e4-9f89-561284a573f8_story.html?hpid=z6) numerous people a story about killing two alleged carjackers in Texas. Reporters tried repeatedly to verify this claim, but no evidence of it exists.

6. Chris Kyle Was Successfully Sued For Lying About the Former Governor of Minnesota: Kyle alleged (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384176/justice-jesse-ventura-was-right-his-lawsuit-j-delgado) that former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura defamed Navy SEALs and got into a fight with him at a local bar. Ventura successfully sued Kyle for the passage in his book, and a jury awarded him $1.845 million.

7. Chris Kyle’s Family Claimed He Donated His Book Proceeds To Veterans’ Charity, But He Kept Most Of The Profits: The National Review debunks (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384176/justice-jesse-ventura-was-right-his-lawsuit-j-delgado/page/0/2) the claim that all proceeds of his book went to veterans’ charities. Around 2 percent – $52,000 – went to the charities while the Kyles pocketed $3 million.

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/23/7_enormous_lies_american_sniper_is_telling_america _partner/

and the guy was a religious, crusading, Muslim-savage-hating, murderous psychopath, and totally ignorant of why he was in Iraq, and actually thought after all these years that Saddam/Iraq did WTC attack, and not about BigOil. Of course, he could have wisened up like "friendly fire :lol " Tillman

If he wanted to "protect save the lives of his buddies", he should have been aiming at Wash DC and Repugs who wasted 5000+ of his buddies' lives.

TheSanityAnnex

01-24-2015, 02:55 PM

Wild Cobra

01-24-2015, 04:02 PM

I'm not interested in seeing a sniper movie myself. I know a guy who went to sniper training. It's a military job, like others, that doesn't deserve any special award or acknowledgement. From what little I understand of it, I don't think it should be glamorized or sensationalized. Nor, should it be exploited in a negative way.

It is what it is.

DarrinS

01-24-2015, 05:24 PM

It was a story worth telling, but the actual movie wasn't that great IMHO.

DMX7

01-24-2015, 06:35 PM

It was a story worth telling, but the actual movie wasn't that great IMHO.

I plan on seeing it, but you've got to be the first tea party republican to say that.

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 06:53 PM

Blondie made it for $60M, already grossed $120M+, and probably created, will inflame and/or create quite a few "savage" Muslim terrorists around the world.

The Reckoning

01-24-2015, 07:08 PM

Blondie made it for $60M, already grossed $120M+, and probably created, will inflame and/or create quite a few "savage" Muslim terrorists around the world.

then how does that make it a failure? :lol

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 07:25 PM

then how does that make it a failure? :lol

I didn't say the film was a failure, financial or otherwise.

Kyle was a messy failure in many ways. Ultimate failure was thinking therapy for PTSD victim was to go shooting! LOL

TeyshaBlue

01-24-2015, 07:49 PM

Yeah. That's fucking hilarious.
smh

baseline bum

01-24-2015, 07:50 PM

Went and saw it last night, wasn't expecting it to follow the book closely and it didn't. I wish they would have touched more on how Kyle took the marines under his wing and taught them and trained them. I enjoyed the movie for what it was, pretty powerful ending.

When does Hollywood ever tell the actual story though? Like in Dallas Buyers Club when the main character wasn't a cocksucker in the movie.

DMX7

01-24-2015, 07:56 PM

Ultimate failure was thinking therapy for PTSD victim was to go shooting! LOL

Yeah, that was pretty dumb.

scanry

01-24-2015, 08:22 PM

Blondie made it for $60M, already grossed $120M+, and probably created, will inflame and/or create quite a few "savage" Muslim terrorists around the world.

It's gonna sail past $300 mil (domestic) in a week or two. Add another $200 mil overseas, WB will be laughing their way to the bank.

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 08:35 PM

American Sniper: anti-Muslim threats skyrocket in wake of film's release

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/24/american-sniper-anti-muslim-threats-skyrocket

DarrinS

01-24-2015, 08:46 PM

American Sniper: anti-Muslim threats skyrocket in wake of film's release

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/24/american-sniper-anti-muslim-threats-skyrocket

Did you actually read your link?

boutons_deux

01-24-2015, 08:50 PM

Did you actually read your link?

yes, did you?

Silver&Black

01-24-2015, 09:42 PM

If anybody wants to read about the greatest sniper in history.....check out Carlos Hathcock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

7BNwzZtnM4Y

pgardn

01-24-2015, 10:04 PM

If anybody wants to read about the greatest sniper in history.....check out Carlos Hathcock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

7BNwzZtnM4Y

So I read this and some of the links.

A British sniper killed two Taliban at very close to 2.5 km. Wiki claims this as a record.
That has to be luck going through that much air. But he killed two of them in the same position.
I just can't fathom that. The military must have done some incredible engineering on the projectiles.
I really don't get it. And I wish it said something about if he missed a couple of times but kept the targets in site.

Silver&Black

01-24-2015, 10:27 PM

So I read this and some of the links.

A British sniper killed two Taliban at very close to 2.5 km. Wiki claims this as a record.
That has to be luck going through that much air. But he killed two of them in the same position.
I just can't fathom that. The military must have done some incredible engineering on the projectiles.
I really don't get it. And I wish it said something about if he missed a couple of times but kept the targets in site.

The longest confirmed kill was done by a Canadian sniper (Rob Furlong) at 1.5 miles (2.4 km) and I've seen the documentary on that shot. The Canadian sniper was using a Barrett .50 cal. If you know anything about that weapon.....you should know that wind does not affect it nearly as bad as say a 7.62 round or a 5.56 round. Some people (so I've heard) say that the Barrett .50 cal shoots dead straight at 1 mile. With the average rifle (say a M-4 or Winchester .308) the bullet always leaves the barrel and goes up...then falls to where the shooter is aiming. This is not the case with the sniper rifle the Canadian sniper had.

And yeah....he did miss several times before actually hitting the guy. But the thing is.....you cannot hear the gunshot at that distance. So multiple shots is plausible. But, with that being said...it may be fake. No one (with exception of the sniper and the dead guy) knows for sure.

_MK4SEoBFXk

pgardn

01-24-2015, 10:48 PM

The longest confirmed kill was done by a Canadian sniper (Rob Furlong) at 1.5 miles (2.4 km) and I've seen the documentary on that shot. The Canadian sniper was using a Barrett .50 cal. If you know anything about that weapon.....you should know that wind does not affect it nearly as bad as say a 7.62 round or a 5.56 round. Some people (so I've heard) say that the Barrett .50 cal shoots dead straight at 1 mile. With the average rifle (say a M-4 or Winchester .308) the bullet always leaves the barrel and goes up...then falls to where the shooter is aiming. This is not the case with the sniper rifle the Canadian sniper had.

And yeah....he did miss several times before actually hitting the guy. But the thing is.....you cannot hear the gunshot at that distance. So multiple shots is plausible. But, with that being said...it may be fake. No one (with exception of the sniper and the dead guy) knows for sure.

_MK4SEoBFXk

Furlong's record was surpassed in November 2009 by British sniper Craig Harrison (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_(sniper)) who shot two Taliban fighters consecutively at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd).[2] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Furlong#cite_note-2)

Ya never know what the record really is I guess but...

I think a projectile fired at that velocity heats up changes density and then who knows what. If the air is cold or warmer I guess you can adjust the aim it just seems so difficult. I did not even think about the target not knowing what was going on from that far away, good point.

What metal are they made of, I know they got spin them... Too much.

Silver&Black

01-24-2015, 11:05 PM

Furlong's record was surpassed in November 2009 by British sniper Craig Harrison (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_(sniper)) who shot two Taliban fighters consecutively at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd).[2] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Furlong#cite_note-2)

Ya never know what the record really is I guess but...

I think a projectile fired at that velocity heats up changes density and then who knows what. If the air is cold or warmer I guess you can adjust the aim it just seems so difficult. I did not even think about the target not knowing what was going on from that far away, good point.

What metal are they made of, I know they got spin them... Too much.

good shit pgardn. Just read about it. Guess I turned off the documentary too soon. What's so badass about that shot is that it was done with a .338 lupua round. That's fucking incredible to shoot that round....at that distance....and actually hit the target.

I want to give all these snipers the credit....but some of it you can just chalk up as "luck".

spurraider21

01-24-2015, 11:08 PM

how fucking boring would the movie be if it didn't have historical inaccuracies?

pgardn

01-24-2015, 11:23 PM

good shit pgardn. Just read about it. Guess I turned off the documentary too soon. What's so badass about that shot is that it was done with a .338 lupua round. That's fucking incredible to shoot that round....at that distance....and actually hit the target.

I want to give all these snipers the credit....but some of it you can just chalk up as "luck".

Oh I'm sure they are very,very good.

Its way complicated. But that Furlong guy shot 3 rounds. The barrel has got to heat up, ya da, yada...
And he was at higher altitude with less air and it was totally new for him. He said he let the rounds heat in the sun for a bit...

I would rather own those optical devices than the gun up in those mountains. The spotter has to be damn good as well. Definitely teamwork.

CosmicCowboy

01-25-2015, 12:22 PM

The longest confirmed kill was done by a Canadian sniper (Rob Furlong) at 1.5 miles (2.4 km) and I've seen the documentary on that shot. The Canadian sniper was using a Barrett .50 cal. If you know anything about that weapon.....you should know that wind does not affect it nearly as bad as say a 7.62 round or a 5.56 round. Some people (so I've heard) say that the Barrett .50 cal shoots dead straight at 1 mile. With the average rifle (say a M-4 or Winchester .308) the bullet always leaves the barrel and goes up...then falls to where the shooter is aiming. This is not the case with the sniper rifle the Canadian sniper had.

And yeah....he did miss several times before actually hitting the guy. But the thing is.....you cannot hear the gunshot at that distance. So multiple shots is plausible. But, with that being said...it may be fake. No one (with exception of the sniper and the dead guy) knows for sure.

_MK4SEoBFXk

:lmao. .50 cals don't defy gravity so elevation is still adjusted for muzzle velocity, drag coefficient and time in flight. The advantage of .50s is that the round is so heavy it isn't affected by wind as much.

Silver&Black

01-25-2015, 07:16 PM

:lmao. .50 cals don't defy gravity so elevation is still adjusted for muzzle velocity, drag coefficient and time in flight. The advantage of .50s is that the round is so heavy it isn't affected by wind as much.

Never said it defies gravity....:lmao. Read again. I just said it shoots dead straight at one mile (so I've heard). Of course the bullet will drop....these shots are over one mile.

CosmicCowboy

01-25-2015, 09:41 PM

Never said it defies gravity....:lmao. Read again. I just said it shoots dead straight at one mile (so I've heard). Of course the bullet will drop....these shots are over one mile.

Muzzle velocity of a Barrett .50 is 2799 ft per second. Do the math. That isn't "shoots straight at a mile"

Long distance shooting is math. Adjusting for windage and elevation. The bullet goes up and arches into the target.

Silver&Black

01-25-2015, 10:00 PM

Muzzle velocity of a Barrett .50 is 2799 ft per second. Do the math. That isn't "shoots straight at a mile"

Long distance shooting is math. Adjusting for windage and elevation. The bullet goes up and arches into the target.

My whole "shoots straight at a mile" thing comes from what I've heard. I've never actually analyzed a barrett .50 cal flight path over one mile.

What I'm saying is that when a bullet leaves the barrel of most rifles (and this is debatable too....not calling it fact) it rises. And this is not proven....some people argue that the bullet immediately starts to fall as soon as it leaves the barrel. Some people say it rises as much as 7 inches and gravity (and other things of course....losing velocity....air friction...etc.) cause the bullet to fall to where the shooter is aiming. For a m-16 or m-4 300 meters is the standard....if the shooter aims at the head of the target....at some point (some say around halfway) the bullet is actually a couple inches over the targets head.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/BZ.jpg

With the .50 cal....(again...what I've heard) this is not the case. The bullet's rise out of the barrel is not nearly as noticable. Some even say that there is no rise....hence my "shoots dead straight" line.

But...there is no bullet that defies gravity. Gravity will always win.

sickdsm

01-25-2015, 10:17 PM

Saw the movie couple times with my boy. We liked it a lot. Did not read the book nor know too much about the accuracies of his life.

Cannot believe how well Bradley Cooper did in that role.

I seem to remember the whirlwind of 9-11 being "somebody has to pay for this" I thought it was not the right move/mindset at the time.

Locally both the the left and right were all about invading someone. I think pretty much most all wars post WWII are either unneccesary or a political pissing match. I didn't think this movie had much to get upset about though.

FWIW I do make it a point to illustrate to my kids about the "bad" guys might be the good guys and the "good" guys might be the bad guys.

It never hurts to teach how to look at things from a different point of view, otherwise you might end up like boutons.

On a side note i chuckled when i saw The Interview on netflix today.

What a horrible movie, least i think it was, i fell asleep halfway through it once, the other time Cards against Humanity stole my interest.

spurraider21

01-26-2015, 01:47 AM

i dont understand the political pissing contest people have gotten into over American Sniper... truth be told, i went in expecting it to be a "Murika! Murika!" movie, but it really wasn't

boutons_deux

01-26-2015, 06:00 AM

i dont understand ....

because you're too stupid

Smart non-Repugs/rednecks/hicks/bubbas/tea baggers see Kyle (not the movie) as sicko murderer and liar while the Repugs, Fox, and other shit heads see him as The Perfect American Hero, eg, Repugs, Fox, conservatives are politicizing sicko murderer Kyle as a hero (but shit, EVERYBODY in the military is a hero to them)

Fox News host bashes Michael Moore: America ‘saved the planet’ with snipers like Chris Kyle

the hosts of Fox & Friends lashed out at former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (D) after he recently said (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/bill-maher-takes-a-shot-at-american-sniper-for-glorifying-psychopath-patriot-chris-kyle/) that there was “a lot of intersection” between the Tea Party and the people who went to see “American Sniper” because they were “very angry.”

“Damn right, we’re angry,” Fox News host Anna Kooiman quipped, adding that filmmaker Michael Moore had asked on Saturday (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/559059607281086464) if hiding “on top of a roof” shooting people in the back was what Jesus would do.

“Chris Kyle was protecting a bunch of Marines,”

“We’ve been the world’s policeman, and guess what’s happened over the time we’ve become the world’s policeman. A billion people in other countries have moved into the middle class.” :lol :lol :lol :lol

“We had India on TV earlier. If it wasn’t for Americans dying around the world, the rest of the world would be in abject poverty. We have saved the planet, and if we go away as [the world's] policeman, it’s going to be hell to pay for everyone.” :lol :lol :lol :lol

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/fox-news-host-bashes-michael-moore-america-saved-the-planet-with-snipers-like-chris-kyle/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

yep, 100Ks of Iraqis and Afghans are in abject poverty now .... America's policing killed them, along with WASTING 6000+ American military "policemen"

and the rednecks went wild!

spurraider21

01-26-2015, 06:05 AM

because you're too stupid

Smart non-Repugs/rednecks/hicks/bubbas/tea baggers see Kyle (not the movie) as sicko murderer and liar while the Repugs, Fox, and other shit heads see him as The Perfect American Hero, eg, Repugs, Fox, conservatives are politicizing sicko murderer Kyle as a hero (but shit, EVERYBODY in the military is a hero to them)

Fox News host bashes Michael Moore: America ‘saved the planet’ with snipers like Chris Kyle

the hosts of Fox & Friends lashed out at former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (D) after he recently said (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/bill-maher-takes-a-shot-at-american-sniper-for-glorifying-psychopath-patriot-chris-kyle/) that there was “a lot of intersection” between the Tea Party and the people who went to see “American Sniper” because they were “very angry.”

“Damn right, we’re angry,” Fox News host Anna Kooiman quipped, adding that filmmaker Michael Moore had asked on Saturday (https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/559059607281086464) if hiding “on top of a roof” shooting people in the back was what Jesus would do.

“Chris Kyle was protecting a bunch of Marines,”

“We’ve been the world’s policeman, and guess what’s happened over the time we’ve become the world’s policeman. A billion people in other countries have moved into the middle class.” :lol :lol :lol :lol

“We had India on TV earlier. If it wasn’t for Americans dying around the world, the rest of the world would be in abject poverty. We have saved the planet, and if we go away as [the world's] policeman, it’s going to be hell to pay for everyone.” :lol :lol :lol :lol

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/fox-news-host-bashes-michael-moore-america-saved-the-planet-with-snipers-like-chris-kyle/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

yep, 100Ks of Iraqis and Afghans are in abject poverty now .... America's policing killed them, along with WASTING 6000+ American military "policemen"

and the rednecks went wild!

couldn't care less about fox news. i'm talking about the film, not the networks' reception to the film. did you even watch the movie, booboo?

boutons_deux

01-26-2015, 06:15 AM

i'm talking about the film

because you're too stupid to understand the "pissing contest" is not just about the film, but also about Kyle the sicko murderer MISCONSTRUED as a HERO by the rightwingnuts, and then about Repugs, the true "savages", invading Iraq for oil.

DarrinS

01-26-2015, 10:20 AM

i dont understand the political pissing contest people have gotten into over American Sniper... truth be told, i went in expecting it to be a "Murika! Murika!" movie, but it really wasn't

Yeah, I don't get why this film raises the hackles of some people.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 10:20 AM

My whole "shoots straight at a mile" thing comes from what I've heard. I've never actually analyzed a barrett .50 cal flight path over one mile.

What I'm saying is that when a bullet leaves the barrel of most rifles (and this is debatable too....not calling it fact) it rises. And this is not proven....some people argue that the bullet immediately starts to fall as soon as it leaves the barrel. Some people say it rises as much as 7 inches and gravity (and other things of course....losing velocity....air friction...etc.) cause the bullet to fall to where the shooter is aiming. For a m-16 or m-4 300 meters is the standard....if the shooter aims at the head of the target....at some point (some say around halfway) the bullet is actually a couple inches over the targets head.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/BZ.jpg

With the .50 cal....(again...what I've heard) this is not the case. The bullet's rise out of the barrel is not nearly as noticable. Some even say that there is no rise....hence my "shoots dead straight" line.

But...there is no bullet that defies gravity. Gravity will always win.

Bullets don't RISE coming out of the barrel. Bullets come straight out of the end of the barrel. The further you are shooting the more you elevate the end of the barrel to arch the bullet in and compensate for bullet drop. All bullets are affected by gravity the same. The bullet starts dropping as soon as it exits the barrel. Bullet drop (at a given atmospheric condition) at a given distance varies due to initial velocity of the bullet and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. There are no magic bullets that don't drop at a mile. In your example of a .50 BMG the bullet will drop approximately two hundred and ten inches at one mile with 643 grain M33 ball ammo.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 10:37 AM

To simplify this for you, if the bore of the rifle is pointed straight at the bullseye at one mile the bullet will hit approximately 210" below the bullseye.

If you want to hit the bullseye at one mile you aim 210" above the bullseye.

When you see Bradley Cooper adjusting the turrets on his scope he is adjusting the relative elevation of the barrel to the crosshair in the scope to compensate and tip the barrel higher (aim higher) the further away the target is.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 10:53 AM

If you really want to understand it the the Night Force scope he was using in the movie is one click per 1/4 minute of angle. A minute of angle is 1/60th of a degree. at 100 yards one minute of angle is 1". at one mile one minute of angle is 17.6". If he is zeroed at 100 yards and wants to shoot one mile and knows his bullet drops 210" then he knows he needs to adjust his scope up 48 clicks in order to hold his crosshair on his target and achieve a hit (assuming wind is not an issue).

spurraider21

01-26-2015, 11:03 AM

because you're too stupid to understand the "pissing contest" is not just about the film, but also about Kyle the sicko murderer MISCONSTRUED as a HERO by the rightwingnuts, and then about Repugs, the true "savages", invading Iraq for oil.

you choose really random words to capitalize

pgardn

01-26-2015, 11:40 AM

Bullets don't RISE coming out of the barrel. Bullets come straight out of the end of the barrel. The further you are shooting the more you elevate the end of the barrel to arch the bullet in and compensate for bullet drop. All bullets are affected by gravity the same. The bullet starts dropping as soon as it exits the barrel. Bullet drop (at a given atmospheric condition) at a given distance varies due to initial velocity of the bullet and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. There are no magic bullets that don't drop at a mile. In your example of a .50 BMG the bullet will drop approximately two hundred and ten inches at one mile with 643 grain M33 ball ammo.

This is probably true, I'm not a gun guy but they are very interesting.
To say bullets can't rise if shot perfectly horizontally is not.
It is possible in theory make a bullet rise.
Im sure a ballistics engineer could "wing" a projectile, I'm just not sure why they would want to, maybe you know of some efforts? Anyways, air, a fluid, greatly complicates ballistics. Hitting targets on the moon would be much easier. And the range would be phenomenal. One could put a projectile into orbit on the moon with some sort of rail gun. g is only 1.6 m/s/s and no air to deal with (that would burn up projectiles shot from the surface of the Earth in the attempt to put them in orbit).

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 11:43 AM

This is probably true, I'm not a gun guy but they are very interesting.
To say bullets can't rise if shot perfectly horizontally is not.
It is possible in theory make a bullet rise.
Im sure a ballistics engineer could "wing" a projectile, I'm just not sure why they would want to, maybe you know of some efforts? Anyways, air, a fluid, greatly complicates ballistics. Hitting targets on the moon would be much easier. And the range would be phenomenal. One could put a projectile into orbit on the moon with some sort of rail gun. g is only 1.6 m/s/s and no air to deal with (that would burn up projectiles shot from the surface of the Earth in the attempt to put them in orbit).

Sorry, but the the laws of basic physics apply. This is not true.

A bullet fired horizontally out of a gun drops at exactly the same rate as the same bullet rolled off the edge of a table.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 03:07 PM

Sorry, but the the laws of basic physics apply. This is not true.

A bullet fired horizontally out of a gun drops at exactly the same rate as the same bullet rolled off the edge of a table.

This is ONLY true it there is no air. Or the bullet is made so air has negligible effect. If you can make a bullet that is affected by air, in theory you absolutely could make it rise.

A round projectile given underspin could definitely rise.
Gliders are projectiles by definition and they rise.
Read about Bernoulli. Read about how lift occurs without propulsion from the object rising.

And yes those classic experiments you mentioned do indeed work. Because the effect of air is negligible. They also assume the Earth is flat. Newton did a thought experiment with the concept you just mentioned but took into account the Earth is round and theorized that objects could be put into orbit. He described orbiting as continually falling towards Earth.

boutons_deux

01-26-2015, 03:19 PM

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 03:33 PM

This is ONLY true it there is no air. Or the bullet is made so air has negligible effect. If you can make a bullet that is affected by air, in theory you absolutely could make it rise.

A round projectile given underspin could definitely rise.
Gliders are projectiles by definition and they rise.
Read about Bernoulli. Read about how lift occurs without propulsion from the object rising.

And yes those classic experiments you mentioned do indeed work. Because the effect of air is negligible. They also assume the Earth is flat. Newton did a thought experiment with the concept you just mentioned but took into account the Earth is round and theorized that objects could be put into orbit. He described orbiting as continually falling towards Earth.

Wow. I can't believe you are arguing this point. This is very very basic physics.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 03:38 PM

This is ONLY true it there is no air. Or the bullet is made so air has negligible effect. If you can make a bullet that is affected by air, in theory you absolutely could make it rise.

A round projectile given underspin could definitely rise.
Gliders are projectiles by definition and they rise.
Read about Bernoulli. Read about how lift occurs without propulsion from the object rising.

And yes those classic experiments you mentioned do indeed work. Because the effect of air is negligible. They also assume the Earth is flat. Newton did a thought experiment with the concept you just mentioned but took into account the Earth is round and theorized that objects could be put into orbit. He described orbiting as continually falling towards Earth.

BTW, I've got around 20 hours in sail planes and thy only rise in a rising column or wave of air because of the surface area and dynamics of the wing. Without rising air you are constantly losing altitude. Even in rising air you are dropping relative to the column of air you are in, you are just rising relative to the ground if the updraft is strong enough.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 03:39 PM

Sorry, but the the laws of basic physics apply. This is not true.

A bullet fired horizontally out of a gun drops at exactly the same rate as the same bullet rolled off the edge of a table.

If there wasn't anything in front of the bullet, it would take some time for it to hit the ground. A bullet off a table would take less than a second.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 03:43 PM

If there wasn't anything in front of the bullet, it would take some time for it to hit the ground. A bullet off a table would take less than a second.

They drop at exactly the same rate. In a bullet you have a horizontal component (muzzle velocity) and a vertical component (gravity) operating at the same time. The vertical component (gravity) is the same whether there is a horizontal component or not. On a perfectly level surface a bullet fired horizontally from a gun and a bullet dropped from the end of the barrel at exactly the same time would hit the ground at exactly the same time.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 03:45 PM

They drop at exactly the same rate. In a bullet you have a horizontal component (muzzle velocity) and a vertical component (gravity) operating at the same time. The vertical component (gravity) is the same whether there is a horizontal component or not. On a perfectly level surface a bullet fired from a gun and a bullet dropped from the end of the barrel would hit the ground at exactly the same time.

bullshit. Picture an open space with no obstacles in front of the gun. Fire the gun at the same time the bullet is pushed over the edge of the table. The one fired out of the gun is going to probably take a second or two to land. the one of the table, less than a second.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 03:46 PM

bullshit. Picture an open space with no obstacles in front of the gun. Fire the gun at the same time the bullet is pushed over the edge of the table. The one fired out of the gun is going to probably take a second or two to land. the one of the table, less than a second.

:lmao

this is too funny.

What the fuck has happened to the educational system?

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 03:48 PM

:lmao

this is too funny.

What the fuck has happened to the educational system?

don't make me do an Avante zoooooooom at you.
The same physics would apply to anything.

Throwing a baseball flat and dropping one at the same time. The dropped one hits first every time. The fired bullet would take even longer than the thrown baseball.
Which is heavier....a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 03:51 PM

don't make me do an Avante zoooooooom at you.
The same physics would apply to anything.

Throwing a baseball flat and dropping one at the same time. The dropped one hits first every time. The fired bullet would take even longer than the thrown baseball.
Which is heavier....a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?

:lol

they drop at exactly the same rate. This is basic high school physics.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:02 PM

:lol

they drop at exactly the same rate. This is basic high school physics.

yes, the drop at the same rate. But in this case, one (the one fired) is going to be traveling at a higher rate and will have more...hang time (for lack of a scientific word).

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:10 PM

yes, the drop at the same rate. But in this case, one (the one fired) is going to be traveling at a higher rate and will have more...hang time (for lack of a scientific word).

nope. The horizontal force is independent from the vertical force. Vertical force is the same on both bullets and they drop at the same rate and hit the ground at the same time.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:13 PM

nope. The horizontal force is independent from the vertical force. Vertical force is the same on both bullets and they drop at the same rate and hit the ground at the same time.

you're right about the physics but wrong about them hitting the ground at the same time. you're misapplying the theory.
you never answered which was heavier, a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:14 PM

you're right about the physics but wrong about them hitting the ground at the same time. you're misapplying the theory.
you never answered which was heavier, a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?

The physics is the physics...:lol

and neither is heavier, dumbass.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:18 PM

The physics is the physics...:lol

and neither is heavier, dumbass.

wrong. it's a trick question. a TON of lead weighs the same as a TON of feathers. or a TON of bricks.

A ton is a ton no matter what you're weighing.

Just like physics is physics and that a bullet fired off into the air is going to take MORE fucking time than a bullet thrown to the ground off a table.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:20 PM

wrong. it's a trick question. a TON of lead weighs the same as a TON of feathers. or a TON of bricks.

A ton is a ton no matter what you're weighing.

Just like physics is physics and that a bullet fired off into the air is going to take MORE fucking time than a bullet thrown to the ground off a table.

Jesus. You not only suck at basic physics, you suck at simple reading comprehension. I said neither is heavier (as in they both weigh the same).

TeyshaBlue

01-26-2015, 04:23 PM

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:31 PM

Jesus. You not only suck at basic physics, you suck at simple reading comprehension. I said neither is heavier (as in they both weigh the same).

Move the goalpost much?

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:33 PM

Move the goalpost much?

:lmao

that doesn't even make sense.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:34 PM

:lmao

that doesn't even make sense.

yes...I prove my point about the falling bullets and now all of a sudden, you want to argue about my trick question.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:38 PM

Trolls will be trolls.

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:42 PM

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 04:46 PM

cantthinkofanything

01-26-2015, 04:51 PM

no

math please

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:26 PM

"Gliders are projectiles by definition and they rise."

:lol holy fucking shit, gliders aren't axially symmetrical, don't rotate, AND have aerodynamic force of the wings providing lift. How can a spinning bullet rise? :lol

Because you don't know the physics definition of a projectile.
As long as it is not self propelled like a rocket or missile it can be a projectile.
For example, if I tore your small head off and threw it, after in left my hand, its a projectile.

A bullet that was in the shape of a sphere with underspin could rise Ya big wad. Stick to democratic politics as you know nothing about the different manners in which lift can be produced. Again, fluids can create pressure differences on objects that spin in them. Read.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:36 PM

Wow. I can't believe you are arguing this point. This is very very basic physics.

And thats why why you are incorrect.
You are making it basic physics by pretending there is no air.
And I am arguing the point because I happen to know this stuff.

However, in an effort not to upset you, I would really like to ask you some questions about dampening recoil, under the basic idea in physics of conservation of momentum. I assume you have shot some guns that propel some fairly large projectiles at high velocities. I would like to know some of the engineering tricks to reduce the force of the kickback.
If you don't mind...

I do not get to shoot guns so I don't have the practical knowledge. But I do know how complicated air makes basic physics.

ElNono

01-26-2015, 05:37 PM

math please

Newton's Law of the Conservation of Momentum

Math here:
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravity_sideways_motion.htm

Includes the same thing discussed here: dropping a bullet vs firing.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:41 PM

serious question though...

If one did roll a bullet off a table, would the speed of the roll have any effect on how quickly it dropped? Would the top spin cause the rate of the drop to be faster (even slightly) than gravity alone?

Just rolling, it would be so tiny...

I seriously can't believe people who like sports have not become acquainted with why tennis players often use topsin to keep the ball from flying long. Topspin is of course useless without air. Has anyone dealt with baseball and sinkers? Or why knuckle balls are so unpredictable. And why basketball players try not to shoot knuckle balls. Why would one think bullets are totally immune to the effects of air?

ElNono

01-26-2015, 05:42 PM

ElNono

01-26-2015, 05:46 PM

Air resistance is well known in skydiving. Eventually, air resistance will cancel out gravity, you stop accelerating, and you'll reach what's called terminal velocity, the maximum speed you'll reach when falling down.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:49 PM

Obviously, if there's a force countering gravity (ie: air resistance), then there's an obvious effect, since Newton's law states:

the velocity of an object moving in a given direction will remain constant provided there are no forces acting in that direction.

Things moving in the air are constantly colliding with air molecules as well as creating patterns of flow around the objects. I thought people understood this. And the faster you go, the more frequently the object runs into air.

Terminal Velocity? Anyone?

Holy shit Nono beat me to the punch... People do read.

ElNono

01-26-2015, 05:52 PM

I always hated physics in high school, tbh

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:57 PM

BTW, I've got around 20 hours in sail planes and thy only rise in a rising column or wave of air because of the surface area and dynamics of the wing. Without rising air you are constantly losing altitude. Even in rising air you are dropping relative to the column of air you are in, you are just rising relative to the ground if the updraft is strong enough.

What?

How come gliders can be yanked off the ground by a powered plane?
Have you heard of the cambered wing?

Take a piece of paper and blow across the top of it while holding it and tell me why it rises while air is clearly flowing over the top.

Seriously CC I have questions as you apparently have shot way more than I have. I would appreciate knowing more about methods to prevent big kickbacks.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 05:58 PM

I always hated physics in high school, tbh

I did to.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 06:07 PM

And thats why why you are incorrect.
You are making it basic physics by pretending there is no air.
And I am arguing the point because I happen to know this stuff.

However, in an effort not to upset you, I would really like to ask you some questions about dampening recoil, under the basic idea in physics of conservation of momentum. I assume you have shot some guns that propel some fairly large projectiles at high velocities. I would like to know some of the engineering tricks to reduce the force of the kickback.
If you don't mind...

I do not get to shoot guns so I don't have the practical knowledge. But I do know how complicated air makes basic physics.

There are several ways. Easiest is mass of the rifle. My sniper rifle (very much like the one in the movie) weighs 9 pounds less scope. Increasing mass of the rifle decreases felt recoil.

Then there are muzzle breaks. All of the powder is never used. A muzzle break has holes/slots which channel the remaining gas after the projectile has left the barrel out to the sides and up instead of continuing to provide straight line thrust off the end of the barrel. They are loud, but again, suppress felt recoil.

The most complicated are the spring assisted recoil dampeners like the Barrett .50. The barrel itself recoils back against springs which soften the perceived recoil.

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 06:14 PM

pgardn

01-26-2015, 06:16 PM

There are several ways. Easiest is mass of the rifle. My sniper rifle (very much like the one in the movie) weighs 9 pounds less scope. Increasing mass of the rifle decreases felt recoil.

Then there are muzzle breaks. All of the powder is never used. A muzzle break has holes/slots which channel the remaining gas after the projectile has left the barrel out to the sides and up instead of continuing to provide straight line thrust off the end of the barrel. They are loud, but again, suppress felt recoil.

The most complicated are the spring assisted recoil dampeners like the Barrett .50. The barrel itself recoils back against springs which soften the perceived recoil.

Aha!

Those tanks with those strange muzzles. I was trying to figure that out. I thought it may have something to do with heat but that makes way more sense.

So shotguns used to shoot big birds ( geese I guess) at distance (requiring velocity) You gotta aim up. And they send up a lot of shot. Everything points to That's gotta hurt? Springs or what? Just really heavy?

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 06:21 PM

Aha!

Those tanks with those strange muzzles. I was trying to figure that out. I thought it may have something to do with heat but that makes way more sense.

So shotguns used to shoot big birds ( geese I guess) at distance (requiring velocity) You gotta aim up. And they send up a lot of shot. Everything points to That's gotta hurt? Springs or what? Just really heavy?

Yeah, a 3 1/2" high brass 12 gauge goose or buckshot load is gonna thump you. A gas operated semi-auto which uses part of the expended gas to cycle the action won't kick as hard as an over/under all other things being equal.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 06:24 PM

We are talking about a bullet here, guys....not a skydiver. Air resistance is mathematically there but for practical purpose in this discussion it is negligible.

And the glider analogy is stupid. It is not a projectile. A sailplane trades altitude for speed of air over the wing that provides lift which keeps it from dropping like a piano. A sailplane is always losing altitude (traded for speed/lift) unless it in a column or wave of air that is rising faster than the altitude surrendered for lift.

In physics those are projectiles. The analogy is used only to show how important air can be. Bullets obviously have a much smaller surface area and are much denser. But if you could make a round hollow bullet with some light tough alloy and then make more friction on the top of the barrel compared to the bottom(or some other way of getting big underspin) I bettin you could get some rise.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 06:26 PM

Yeah, a 3 1/2" high brass 12 gauge goose or buckshot load is gonna thump you. A gas operated semi-auto which uses part of the expended gas to cycle the action won't kick as hard as an over/under all other things being equal.

Sorry.
What does cycle the action mean?

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 06:33 PM

back to the sailplane analogy...If you pay attention to cumulus clouds they are constantly forming and breaking up and new clouds form. When a cloud is forming it sucks warm air up the center which reaches the "top" and cools and spills back out and down because cold air is heavier than warm air.. In Texas when we fly sailplanes we use these forming clouds to find our rising column of air...I have been in rising columns as fast as 800 feet per minute...then as the cloud peters out we scoot to the next one trading altitude for speed to get there....For example, the best glide ratio for a Sweizer 2-33 is at 50mph where you trade one foot of altitude for 23 feet forward...I've been as high as 10,000 feet on a 1800 foot drop with a perfect day of continuously finding and using the updraft in forming clouds....

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 06:36 PM

Sorry.
What does cycle the action mean?

The gases throw the bolt back, ejecting the spent hull, and load the next shell. When you see the guys in the movies firing on full auto and the spent brass is spilling out the side that is the action "cycling" between every shot.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 06:42 PM

pgardn

01-26-2015, 06:45 PM

The gases throw the bolt back, ejecting the spent hull, and load the next shell. When you see the guys in the movies firing on full auto and the spent brass is spilling out the side that is the action "cycling" between every shot.

I had no idea.
Very cool. Really probably very hot.

Silver&Black

01-26-2015, 06:55 PM

Bullets don't RISE coming out of the barrel.

This is debatable....I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. I agree with a lot of things you've said....but I've heard that some bullets rise when they leave the barrel. The velocity, change in pressure at the end of the barrel, and the shape of the bullet....causes some lift.

Again.....for the 3rd time. This is debatable. I'm not calling it fact....all I'm saying is some very knowledgeable people argue this. They (and me) maybe wrong.

BTW...the debate with you and cantthinkofanything....you are correct. As long as the bullet is released from rest (well....the bullet has no additional force added in the vertical direction....i.e. the guy isn't throwing the bullet downward) it will hit the ground at the same exact time as a bullet fired horizontally from the barrell. The only acting vertical component is gravity. And it will be a constant 9.81 m/s^2 for both projectiles. The same thing with the baseball.....as long as the baseball is not thrown downward...the time will be the same.

Silver&Black

01-26-2015, 07:10 PM

I always hated physics in high school, tbh

I didn't take physics in high school but I was unfortunate enough to take Physics I, II, and III in college. Physics I wasn't bad (BTW...my teacher was awesome...that might have been the reason I think it wasn't that bad)....but Physics II and III sucked ass. Electricity is a tricky concept to grab for some (especially me). Glad I went the civil engineering route....instead of the electrical engineering route.

All I want to know about electricity is when I flip the switch on my wall....the light should come on. And if it doesn't, It means I haven't paid my electricity bill :lol

CosmicCowboy

01-26-2015, 07:35 PM

Yep. The electrical physics was hard to wrap my head around but once it started sinking in it made chemistry start to make sense.

ElNono

01-26-2015, 07:38 PM

I didn't take physics in high school but I was unfortunate enough to take Physics I, II, and III in college. Physics I wasn't bad (BTW...my teacher was awesome...that might have been the reason I think it wasn't that bad)....but Physics II and III sucked ass. Electricity is a tricky concept to grab for some (especially me). Glad I went the civil engineering route....instead of the electrical engineering route.

All I want to know about electricity is when I flip the switch on my wall....the light should come on. And if it doesn't, It means I haven't paid my electricity bill :lol

:lol I completely mailed it in while in high school... just memorize enough to get by...

Eventually I had to learn the whole thing again on my own while writing/using physics engines.

I actually specialized in electronics in high school (we have some sort of vocational high schools down in ARG, that's what I did). I enjoyed that a little better, although with the advent of VHDL, it became sorta useless for system engineering.

Silver&Black

01-26-2015, 07:50 PM

pgardn

01-26-2015, 08:31 PM

CosmicCowboy (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=207)

I just got off the phone with my father wishing him happy birthday. The reason why I bring this up is he knows more about weapons and bullets than any other man I've ever met in my life (Hell...he owns a shooting range). And basically he agrees with you. So I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong.

He told me the whole bullet "rising" scenario....comes from the difference in sight level and bore level. The sight is actually angled slightly downward....and the bore level is perfectly horizontal. The bullet rises only in relationship with the sight level. At some point the two paths (sight level and bore level) intersect. This is where you are zeroed at.

But even my father....says that he hears this debate all the time at his shooting range.

From a physics point of view, it's possible. I really have no doubt. Now if guns shooting projectiles are ever made this way is a whole different debate. I have never heard of a gun made for this purpose. And I don't know that much about guns. I do know the physics though. There are too many other projectiles that do rise hit horizontally. I have seen it done in a number of situations. Most easily observed is a ping pong ball stuck on the bottom half exiting off a horizontal or even slanted down table slick table. Give it enough underspin and it will rise.

pgardn

01-26-2015, 08:40 PM

:lol I completely mailed it in while in high school... just memorize enough to get by...

Eventually I had to learn the whole thing again on my own while writing/using physics engines.

I actually specialized in electronics in high school (we have some sort of vocational high schools down in ARG, that's what I did). I enjoyed that a little better, although with the advent of VHDL, it became sorta useless for system engineering.

Electricity got me interested in physics. The first time I saw a galvanometer needle deflect while a wire was moved between two magnets I totally freaked out. No batteries. No Fkn batteries needed to produce current. All toys had batteries yet no batteries needed. Then I was shown the little hand held generators that you turn hooked up to a little car with a little motor. And the damned car moved... Blew me away. Then turn the wheels of the car and the generator handle turned, are you Fkn kidding!
God Bless Michael Faraday.

Yes, it's a bitch in college.

sickdsm

01-26-2015, 09:57 PM

Holy crap! I'm surprised CC didn't need to explain the need for a gun to accurately fire a bullet.

Just wondering what rifle anyone would use that would provide topspin?

pgardn

01-26-2015, 10:22 PM

Holy crap! I'm surprised CC didn't need to explain the need for a gun to accurately fire a bullet.

Just wondering what rifle anyone would use that would provide topspin?

I did find this and they are projectiles but I don't know how they work.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/military-smart-bullets/2014/12/15/id/613048/

Im gonna guess they can change the shape thus air flow.
And I don't know if this site is a pile o crap.

spurraider21

01-26-2015, 10:36 PM

:lol people dont pay attention in high school and then complain that high schools suck

ElNono

01-26-2015, 11:15 PM

:lol people dont pay attention in high school and then complain that high schools suck

:lol High school did suck, that's exactly why you don't pay attention

spurraider21

01-26-2015, 11:22 PM

:lol High school did suck, that's exactly why you don't pay attention
:cry students never stood a chance

CosmicCowboy

01-27-2015, 08:12 AM

CosmicCowboy

I just got off the phone with my father wishing him happy birthday. The reason why I bring this up is he knows more about weapons and bullets than any other man I've ever met in my life (Hell...he owns a shooting range). And basically he agrees with you. So I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong.

He told me the whole bullet "rising" scenario....comes from the difference in sight level and bore level. The sight is actually angled slightly downward....and the bore level is perfectly horizontal. The bullet rises only in relationship with the sight level. At some point the two paths (sight level and bore level) intersect. This is where you are zeroed at.

But even my father....says that he hears this debate all the time at his shooting range.

it's a little hard to wrap your head around if your only experience is limited use of a scoped rifle where someone says "aim here to hit this".. i have huge respect for these snipers making these mile plus shots....Even with accurate range there is still a lot of math with air density, temperature, wind, thermal effect, etc. i've done a lot of shooting with small high speed calibers (.220 swift, 22.250) at out to 800 yards (a little over 1/2 mile) on small beer can sized targets (prairie dogs) and adjustments get crazy...wind is always an issue with those light bullets...A typical 600 yard shot with quartering wind I might be aiming 65" high and 120" to the right. It's a kick in the ass to get the target dope right and get that "red mist" affirmation that it was a hit.

Silver&Black

01-27-2015, 07:15 PM

it's a little hard to wrap your head around if your only experience is limited use of a scoped rifle where someone says "aim here to hit this".. i have huge respect for these snipers making these mile plus shots....Even with accurate range there is still a lot of math with air density, temperature, wind, thermal effect, etc. i've done a lot of shooting with small high speed calibers (.220 swift, 22.250) at out to 800 yards (a little over 1/2 mile) on small beer can sized targets (prairie dogs) and adjustments get crazy...wind is always an issue with those light bullets...A typical 600 yard shot with quartering wind I might be aiming 65" high and 120" to the right. It's a kick in the ass to get the target dope right and get that "red mist" affirmation that it was a hit.

It's a whole lot easier today than it was say 20 years ago for our snipers. Well easier is the only word I can come up with. I say this only because the technology has improved drastically. Now they have instruments that can automatically calculate elevation differences, wind velocities, and the difference between magnetic north and true north. But, even with this said, it's still not a guarantee that you're gonna get that "red mist" (I call it the "pink mist") hit.

Like you....I've got a ton of respect for these guys. And like yourself...I'm a huge fan of shooting. One of my favorite activities is .22 shooting. At my fathers' range....probably once every other month we have a shooting competition. Me and him take two computer keyboards, place them at around 50 yards, and we pick a word to try and spell. Needless to say, I'm good.....but I never win against him. The old bastard still can shoot the dick off a hummingbird. :lol

CosmicCowboy

01-28-2015, 08:35 AM

i built a range at the ranch with concrete shooting benches and 50'', 50yd, 100yd, 150yd, and 200yd target frames. Have another range with a portable shooting bench for 300yd, 400yd, and 500yd.

I used to be lease boss on a 13,000 acre hunting lease in South Texas that was really nice...had a 5000sf house, commercial kitchen, cook and housekeeper, swimming pool, game room, 5000 ft landing strip etc.I needed 20 hunters every year paying big bucks to fill it so every year I would get a few new hunters, most wealthy with big egos. They would get a few drinks in them and start bragging about all the great shots they had made on deer in the past...At least one every year would brag on the '500 yards, running, broke his neck" shot. i would laugh and bet them $100 they couldn't hit a garbage can lid at 500 yards. Being alcohol brave they would take me up on the bet and they would always lose. I had a range already set up on the runway....I made over a thousand dollars on that bet. Your average hunter has no clue on long range ballistics and at 500 yards the target even "moves" in the scope because of temperature waves and refraction in the air...They would ALWAYS shoot under it. I know the 7mm Mag handloads I was shooting at the time dropped 64" at 500 yards.

http://imageshack.us/a/img411/104/bench001.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img846/8910/benchesandlake006.jpg

Aztecfan03

01-28-2015, 12:30 PM

don't make me do an Avante zoooooooom at you.
The same physics would apply to anything.

Throwing a baseball flat and dropping one at the same time. The dropped one hits first every time. The fired bullet would take even longer than the thrown baseball.
Which is heavier....a ton of lead or a ton of feathers?

you may be confused because baseballs aren't usually thrown flat.

Aztecfan03

01-28-2015, 12:43 PM

I didn't take physics in high school but I was unfortunate enough to take Physics I, II, and III in college. Physics I wasn't bad (BTW...my teacher was awesome...that might have been the reason I think it wasn't that bad)....but Physics II and III sucked ass. Electricity is a tricky concept to grab for some (especially me). Glad I went the civil engineering route....instead of the electrical engineering route.

All I want to know about electricity is when I flip the switch on my wall....the light should come on. And if it doesn't, It means I haven't paid my electricity bill :lol

high school physics is what led me to decide on engineering. I went with mechanical but I could have seen myself going with electrical because i've gotten some of those concepts really well.

Aztecfan03

01-28-2015, 12:48 PM

:lol High school did suck, that's exactly why you don't pay attention

I had AP(advanced placement) courses so i paid attention for the most part. I dropped to normal english because I was terrible at essays and stuff and that kind of sucked dick.

cantthinkofanything

01-28-2015, 12:54 PM

you may be confused because baseballs aren't usually thrown flat.

I meant to say if the baseball was shot out of a gun

boutons_deux

02-02-2015, 08:51 PM

Texas declares ‘Chris Kyle Day,’ as Medal of Honor petition drive launcheshttp://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/02/texas-declares-chris-kyle-day-as-medal-honor-petition-drive-launches/

:lol a special day, in fucking Texas, of course, and MoH for a sicko creep.

sickdsm

02-03-2015, 10:21 AM

boutons_deux

02-03-2015, 10:48 AM

So what makes him a sicko creep?

read his book, or the many excerpts from the book on many sites.

the movie was Hollywood, the book was Creep Kyle

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 11:08 AM

So what makes him a sicko creep?I think it's more the weird lying. I know what Eastwood goes for these days, but it would have been incredible if a director included all the weird lies and presented Kyle as an unreliable narrator. Keep all the shit they had in the movie but also show him punching Ventura (hell, get Jesse himself in the movie), killing carjackers then getting out of it through his reputation and especially shooting multiple looters from the top of the Superdome. Kyle's legacy is really ambiguous and the movie should reflect that.

IMO it has less merit doing this after the movie came out.It means nothing. Empty base rousing from Ironside.

cantthinkofanything

02-03-2015, 11:09 AM

read his book, or the many excerpts from the book on many sites.

the movie was Hollywood, the book was Creep Kyle

why don't you just tell us?

boutons_deux

02-03-2015, 12:10 PM

why don't you just tell us?

I like to stay positive :lol

Spurminator

02-03-2015, 12:51 PM

It means nothing. Empty base rousing from Ironside.

Related:
http://www.gregabbott.com/petition-poll/chris-kyle-day/

Does Greg Abbott know what a petition is?

cantthinkofanything

02-03-2015, 01:13 PM

I like to stay positive :lol

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Judge-Judy-Eye-Roll-Thumb.gif

IceColdBrewski

02-03-2015, 01:27 PM

It's just a movie Libs. No need to get all hurty butt about it.

boutons_deux

02-03-2015, 02:06 PM

It's just a movie Libs. No need to get all hurty butt about it.

I'm not talking about the movie, but about the Kyle in his book.

cantthinkofanything

02-03-2015, 02:19 PM

I'm not talking about the movie, but about the Kyle in his book.

shut the fuck up and go eat some steak.

Adam Lambert

02-03-2015, 02:22 PM

It's just a movie Libs. No need to get all hurty butt about it.

biting snark.

unfortunately you're a moron if you think it's the libs that have made this more than a movie. cinemark is practically conservative mecca.

to these people going to see american sniper proves that you support the troops and love america, and you better not say anything bad about it or you hate the troops

libs just want to see all of the nominees for their wine and oscars parties

Darth_Pelican

02-03-2015, 02:31 PM

spurraider21

02-03-2015, 02:49 PM

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 04:03 PM

lol shouldYou've never read an opinion in your life?

Give yourself some tests.

spurraider21

02-03-2015, 04:17 PM

You've never read an opinion in your life?

Give yourself some tests.
You just used a prepositional phrase! Identify it. I've given more than the week I'd promised.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 04:27 PM

You just used a prepositional phrase! Identify it. I've given more than the week I'd promised.Do you need a disclaimer next time?

You might be the only person who failed to tell it was an opinion. I am willing to help you with what seems to be a great difficulty for you.

I will ask you again: is English your first language?

boutons_deux

02-03-2015, 04:28 PM

American Sniper had a 58.8 million dollar budget and has grossed 248,942,000 so far. Looks pretty successful to me.

The only failure are people who invested their time analyzing this as anything other than a movie whose purpose was to generate revenue.

:lol

The movie has the nasty, unavoidable (for serious people, not right wingers) context of the failed Iraq war and the assholes who LIED America and sicko Kyle into Iraq.

Darth_Pelican

02-03-2015, 04:35 PM

:lol

The movie has the nasty, unavoidable (for serious people, not right wingers) context of the failed Iraq war and the assholes who LIED America and sicko Kyle into Iraq.

That's why it's a movie and not a documentary. Movies are made to generate profits. If false portrayal helps entertain an audience and sell tickets, then that is what to expect.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 04:49 PM

That's like bitching because Selma didn't show all of MLK's mistresses.

cantthinkofanything

02-03-2015, 04:54 PM

That's like bitching because Selma didn't show all MLK's mistresses.

http://rs1253.pbsrc.com/albums/hh586/TheDailyLike/what-boom.gif%7Ec200

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 05:18 PM

That's like bitching because Selma didn't show all of MLK's mistresses.

If one or more were present during the March, I would totally be cool with that. These were real people.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 07:17 PM

If one or more were present during the March, I would totally be cool with that. These were real people.

I'm pretty sure Chris Kyle was a real people too.

You want perfection, go to the movies...:lol

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 07:29 PM

I'm pretty sure Chris Kyle was a real people too.That's what I said. You were to busy knee jerking a partisan comeback to realize that. Dude publicly lied his ass off. Would have been cool to see that portrayed.

You want perfection, go to the movies...:lolDid you even read my posts or is this just a brain stem response?

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 07:42 PM

That's what I said. You were to busy knee jerking a partisan comeback to realize that. Dude publicly lied his ass off. Would have been cool to see that portrayed.

Did you even read my posts or is this just a brain stem response?

I scrolled back two pages. This thread really hadn't interested me. I saw you criticizing the movie because it didn't point out all the guys flaws. I just pointed out that movies romanticize their characters and you might as well point out that Selma didn't characterize MLK as an adulterous horndog. Big fucking deal.

Trill Clinton

02-03-2015, 07:51 PM

I scrolled back two pages. This thread really hadn't interested me. I saw you criticizing the movie because it didn't point out all the guys flaws. I just pointed out that movies romanticize their characters and you might as well point out that Selma didn't characterize MLK as an adulterous horndog. Big fucking deal.

actually selma did cover mlk's cheating ways. watch the film before talking out ya ass.

Nbadan

02-03-2015, 07:57 PM

I think it's more the weird lying. I know what Eastwood goes for these days, but it would have been incredible if a director included all the weird lies and presented Kyle as an unreliable narrator. Keep all the shit they had in the movie but also show him punching Ventura (hell, get Jesse himself in the movie), killing carjackers then getting out of it through his reputation and especially shooting multiple looters from the top of the Superdome. Kyle's legacy is really ambiguous and the movie should reflect that.

It means nothing. Empty base rousing from Ironside.

It's clear that Kyle did some 'embellishment' of the stories of his days after the war, my problem with Kyle is that these 'embellishments' might have also occurred in Kyle's stories of his sniper days in Iraq....

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 07:57 PM

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 08:02 PM

actually selma did cover mlk's cheating ways. watch the film before talking out ya ass.

Notice I said ALL the mistresses. I knew it was briefly addressed in the film. His being an adulterous horndog in no way should over shadow his accomplishments. That was the point. All the bitches like Boo and Chump saying "but he did THIS or THIS" are just chewing sour grapes and trying to make it overshadow what he did do. Movies romanticize things. That's what they do.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 08:04 PM

Notice I said ALL the mistresses. I knew it was briefly addressed in the film. His being an adulterous horndog in no way should over shadow his accomplishments. That was the point. All the bitches like Boo and Chump saying "but he did THIS or THIS" are just chewing sour grapes and trying to make it overshadow what he did do. Movies romanticize things. That's what they do.lol goal post move.

:cry I knew it was there all along! :cry

Super defensive about Chris Kyle -- did you celebrate his day with Ironside Monday?

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 08:10 PM

I did, chump. Guess you didn't.

And I'm not super defensive. I have read about what some people have said about him. Maybe true, maybe not. Don't really give a shit one way or another. I thought it was decent movie which like any movie can't completely capture a life or a story in an hour and a half.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 08:12 PM

You probably bitched about the Lord of the Rings because it didn't have every detail from the book and romanticized some things that weren't.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 08:17 PM

I did, chump:lol How did you commemorate that special day?

And I'm not super defensive. I have read about what some people have said about him. Maybe true, maybe not. Don't really give a shit one way or another. I thought it was decent movie which like any movie can't completely capture a life or a story in an hour and a half.I was talking about what Kyle said about himself in the book upn which this movie is based. His lies were whoppers and proved spectacularly wrong. That's all I was talking about. I said how it could have been done but would not expect his widow to want her husband's lies repeated nor would I expect a director like Eastwood to explore them.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 08:18 PM

You probably bitched about the Lord of the Rings because it didn't have every detail from the book and romanticized some things that weren't.Do you consider The Lord of the Rings movies to be based on a true story?

That would explain a lot.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 08:25 PM

:lol How did you commemorate that special day?

I was talking about what Kyle said about himself in the book upn which this movie is based. His lies were whoppers and proved spectacularly wrong. That's all I was talking about. I said how it could have been done but would not expect his widow to want her husband's lies repeated nor would I expect a director like Eastwood to explore them.

Actually, I haven't read the book. from what I understand, however, things he has been alleged to have said like the superdome sniper claim and the carjacker claim weren't in the book, but rather just claimed from alleged conversation second hand. Since you apparently read the book, is that true?

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 08:36 PM

Actually, I haven't read the book. from what I understand, however, things he has been alleged to have said like the superdome sniper claim and the carjacker claim weren't in the book, but rather just claimed from alleged conversation second hand. Since you apparently read the book, is that true?As far as I can tell, yes.

OK, include just the Ventura story if you want to just be faithful to the book -- the early editions of the book :lol. Pay Jesse some more money to play himself.

Otherwise, it probably isn't too difficult to talk to the people who would confirm stories like the other ones as coming from Kyle. i'd be surprised if they didn't Since he was confirmed to be a baldfaced liar in his book, checking out the other stories to see if he acknowledged them wouldn't be impossible.

It would all make for a pretty engrossing story about how people in general and Kyle himself felt the need to add to his legend. Just another sanitized biopic is boring.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 08:47 PM

You know...if he really shot looters off the roof of the superdome, don't you think he would have put something that awesome in his book? Oh he didn't? The alleged story about the carjackers? Not there either? Dang. But it somehow confirms your bias.

As for Jesse Ventura...:lol

I don't know if it's true or not but I hope it was. Guy is a fucking Joke. But hey, you want to defend him, fine.

Neither one of us knows the real truth but you and Boo feel free to convict Chris Kyle posthumously as being a worthless liar.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 08:56 PM

You know...if he really shot looters off the roof of the superdome, din't you think he would have put something that awesome in his book? Oh he didn't? The alleged story about the carjackers? Not there either? Dang. But it somehow confirms your bias.why would he put super secret stuff like that in his book?

As for Jesse Ventura...:lol

I don't know if it's true or not but I hope it was. Guy is a fucking Joke. But hey, you want to defend him, fine.Don't have to defend anyone. Look at the court decision.

Neither one of us knows the real truth but you and Boo feel free to convict the Chris Kyle posthumously as being a worthless liar.Nice straw man, CC. I can tell you're upset about this.

I never said he was worthless. I said he was a proven liar who felt the need to embellish his own legend that really didn't need it. Rather than deal directly with that issue, the movie apparently just continued it. Which is pretty boring.

I'm glad they included not so nice things about MLK in Selma. I guess you only think of him as a worthless cheat if your own logic is valid.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:05 PM

:lol

You and Boo share the same dirty, semen stained jockstrap on this one. Sorry you were bored by the movie you never saw and made up shit about the book you never read.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:12 PM

:lol

You and Boo share the same dirty, semen stained jockstrap on this one. Sorry you were bored by the movie you never saw and made up shit about the book you never read.
And in with the ad hominems.

You're really upset now. It's OK, you had to take a defensive stance from the start because Kyle isn't perfect. No one shit himself like you did, though you tried to reverse the whip with the MLK movie you didn't see.

I'm going to watch both movies eventually. Eastwood makes usually good, not great movies. Ironically his best work had to do with dispelling myths and telling the rest of the story -- Unforgiven, both Iwo Jima movies. And I've heard good things about Selma, though I don't expect to see a shot of LBJ's berating his staff while taking a shit -- that would be great.

But you are only interested in protecting your political movie ideals and dug in just like boutons would do to make the discussion purely political, and now purely personal.

Great job! :tu

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:20 PM

:lol deflect, deflect. Proclaim victory after you just got owned.

We love you, chump. Spurstalk wouldn't be the same without you.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:25 PM

:lol deflect, deflect. Proclaim victory after you just got owned. That's precisely what you tried to do with your logical fallacies.

I have no problem acknowledging what was or wasn't in the book. the Ventura story was in the book. The others were not. You can't even admit that Kyle was proved a liar in a court of law.

He was. It's a fact.

Now you only want to make it all about me. You have abandoned any discussion about Kyle because you know you fucked up but are too ashamed to face it.

It's OK, CC. It's not a Hollywood movie. People know you fucked up. People know you have fucked up. People know you will fuck up.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:33 PM

So chump doubles down that Chris Kyle was a worthless liar because Jesse Ventura won his civil suit.

What a surprise.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:38 PM

So chump doubles down that Chris Kyle was a worthless liar because Jesse Ventura won his civil suit.

What a surprise.So CC doubles down on his straw man claiming I said Kyle was worthless.

What a surprise.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:43 PM

Ok, define what your opinion is. So far basically all you have claimed is that he was a liar.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:46 PM

Ok, define what your opinion is. So far basically all you have claimed is that he was a liar.Proved in a court of law. Sounds like he killed a bunch of people and saved a bunch of lives.

Is that accurate?

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:51 PM

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:56 PM

Yeah. Basically accurate. Pretty much a guy in a shitty situation that tried to make the best of it and do the job he signed up for. Funny how that makes him a target for character assassination from the left.Kyle claimed the carjacker story was true btw.

http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2013/02/08/confirmed-american-sniper-chris-kyle-killed-two-men-at-a-gas-station-in-2009/

So two out of three stories. I will keep looking for the other since I know you are only interested in the Hollywood story. My point stands unassailed either way.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:56 PM

I would be the first to say Iraq was a clusterfuck we should have never gotten in to but that doesn't mean I don't respect the guys that volunteered to be there and had loyalty to their comrades and country.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 09:58 PM

Good for you chump. Keep trashing the dead guy on the Internet. It's the manly man thing to do.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 09:59 PM

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:02 PM

Good for you chump. Keep trashing the dead guy on the Internet. It's the manly man thing to do.I am repeating what Kyle himself said.

How is that trashing him? If he didn't want those two stories out there, why publish and acknowledge them?

You instantly felt the need to trash MLK in retaliation. It's a panic response. I understand that's how some people have to work in any vaguely political discussion.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 10:14 PM

I am repeating what Kyle himself said.

How is that trashing him? If he didn't want those two stories out there, why publish and acknowledge them?

You instantly felt the need to trash MLK in retaliation. It's a panic response. I understand that's how some people have to work in any vaguely political discussion.

I didn't trash MLK. Lets burn that strawman of yours right now. It was part of who he was as a man and doesn't tarnish his legacy. It is part of published history.

Go for it internet warrior. Keep trashing the guy. You and Boutons should do lunch and talk about what a liar Kyle was.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:20 PM

I didn't trash MLK. Lets burn that strawman of yours right now. It was part of who he was as a man and doesn't tarnish his legacy. It is part of published history.As is Kyle's lying. It was part of who he was as a man and doesn't tarnish his legacy (well, not in my eyes -- apparently yours. You're taking this lying really, really hard.). It is part of published history.

Go for it internet warrior. Keep trashing the guy.Straw man.

I didn't trash the guy.

You just can't stop being an internet warrior for one second and realize your hypocrisy.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 10:25 PM

Glass houses, Chump. Oh my God! A lie? A LIE?

:lol

You and Boutons have fun with that..

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:31 PM

Glass houses, Chump. Oh my God! A lie? A LIE?

:lol

You and Boutons have fun with that..Considering you lost your shit over it and are now frantically trying to diminish the offense you found so egregious, I have had fun with it.

Like I said, I don't think it tarnishes his legacy at all. You obviously think it does and have expressed your outrage about it.

Hope it was fun for you too.

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 10:32 PM

LOL internet warrior.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:34 PM

LOL internet warrior.Yes, you are fighting like mad on the internet to protect Kyle's honor.

Why?

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 10:36 PM

Yes, you are fighting like mad on the internet to protect Kyle's honor.

Why?

It has nothing to do with Chris Kyle. It has to do with judgmental sanctimonious pricks like you and Boutons.

Wear it. It fits you.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:41 PM

It has nothing to do with Chris Kyle. It has to do with judgmental sanctimonious pricks like you and Boutons.

Wear it. It fits you.His lying is a matter of record.

My judgment is it doesn't tarnish his legacy and actually makes him seem more accessible and human.

What part of that is upsetting you so?

CosmicCowboy

02-03-2015, 10:43 PM

LOL @ your goal post move.

Good night, Chump.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 10:48 PM

LOL @ your goal post move.It was not and you will never say how it could be a goal post move.

Good night, Chump.The internet warrior retreats.

spurraider21

02-03-2015, 10:54 PM

Maybe one day Michael Moore will make a documentary about Chris Kyle and you will all be satisfied.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 11:00 PM

Maybe one day Michael Moore will make a documentary about Chris Kyle and you will all be satisfied.That would not "satisfy" me.

Why do you think that would satisfy me?

spurraider21

02-03-2015, 11:32 PM

That would not "satisfy" me.

Why do you think that would satisfy me?
He would certainly be sure to include the lies that you think should already be in the film.

ChumpDumper

02-03-2015, 11:49 PM

He would certainly be sure to include the lies that you think should already be in the film.I never demanded a documentary at all. We have been talking about dramatizations this entire time.

And I don't consider Moore to be a documentary filmmaker. He undermines that characterization as he lets his biases dictate his filmmaking. So that would probably be among the the least satisfying results for me personally.

You can try guessing about me again if you like.

redzero

02-05-2015, 03:00 AM

I really did enjoy the movie, even though it was incredibly simplistic. The movie was on Kyle's side, but the screenwriters peppered a few obligatory scenes of doubt to remain somewhat objective about the Iraq War. The complaints about the real Kyle being a liar and not actually suffering from PTSD like Cooper are completely valid. I don't, however, agree with the complaints about the movie connecting 9/11 to Iraq. Yes, when viewing the movie, context is necessary. But I don't think the movie misleads the viewer because everybody already knows that 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq. Therefore, I just could not infer that the movie was justifying the invasion of Iraq.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 05:43 PM

speaking of Iraq and liars...

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/nbc-s-brian-williams-recants-iraq-story-after-soldiers-protest-1.327792

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 05:56 PM

What does this have to do with American Sniper?

DarrinS

02-05-2015, 06:03 PM

speaking of Iraq and liars...

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/nbc-s-brian-williams-recants-iraq-story-after-soldiers-protest-1.327792

lol

Aztecfan03

02-05-2015, 06:15 PM

What does this have to do with American Sniper?

this is just following how the discussion is going.

speaking of Iraq and liars...

It's a bit of a tangent but it doesn't really need its own thread.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 06:18 PM

this is just following how the discussion is going.

It's a bit of a tangent but it doesn't really need its own thread.It's a deflection attempt. Posters had nothing to say about the actual topic.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 06:27 PM

What does this have to do with American Sniper?
Iraq and liars.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 06:28 PM

It's a deflection attempt. Posters had nothing to say about the actual topic.

I discussed the topic on page 1. It's page 10 now free game

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 06:29 PM

Iraq and liars.Is that it? That's the only reason you brought it up?

Aztecfan03

02-05-2015, 06:41 PM

Is that it? That's the only reason you brought it up?

Would you prefer he spams threads about it like boutons does?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 06:44 PM

Would you prefer he spams threads about it like boutons does?Given the choice, sure -- i'll take the snarky deflection.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 07:01 PM

Is that it? That's the only reason you brought it up?
Yes, that is it. Why is it so hard for you to grasp?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 07:03 PM

Yes, that is it. Why is it so hard for you to grasp?Just verifying that it was a throwaway deflection.

Thanks.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 07:12 PM

I've deflected nothing. Your five page purse fight was tiresome. I've brought to this thread a bigger and better Iraq war liar.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 07:16 PM

I've deflected nothing. Your five page purse fight was tiresome. I've brought to this thread a bigger and better Iraq war liar.To deflect from the actual subject of the thread.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 07:25 PM

Chris Kyle lied, he's dead. Jesse Ventura is still a faggot. Moving on with the thread, which lie is worse?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 07:29 PM

Chris Kyle lied, he's dead. Jesse Ventura is still a faggot. Moving on with the thread, which lie is worse?Which of Kyle's lies are worse?

Good question.

Probably the Ventura lie since it was actionable and cost in a couple different ways.

Aztecfan03

02-05-2015, 07:31 PM

Chris Kyle lied, he's dead. Jesse Ventura is still a faggot. Moving on with the thread, which lie is worse?

I haven't followed the chris kyle thing, but his lie directly affected someone else while William's didn't so I would say Kyle's would be worse from a very uninformed view of things.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 07:40 PM

Which of Kyle's lies are worse?

Good question.

Probably the Ventura lie since it was actionable and cost in a couple different ways.chump were you aware Jesse Ventura was actually at the bar the night of the Kyle lie in question?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 07:41 PM

chump were you aware Jesse Ventura was actually at the bar the night of the Kyle lie in question?Yes. That doesn't change anything.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:04 PM

Yes. That doesn't change anything.

I'm aware Kyle lied and it doesn't bother me one bit, but I do believe he would have won the defamation suit had he been alive to testify. Ventura is a lying sack of shit himself, and I don't doubt he said SEALS deserved to die in the bar as Kyle said. I do think Kyle lied about punching him.

The SEALS community has been calling out Ventura long before the Kyle stuff came up.

Check this out
http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm

Ventura is a piece of shit

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:12 PM

I'm aware Kyle lied and it doesn't bother me one bit, but I do believe he would have won the defamation suit had he been alive to testify. Ventura is a lying sack of shit himself, and I don't doubt he said SEALS deserved to die in the bar as Kyle said. I do think Kyle lied about punching him.

The SEALS community has been calling out Ventura long before the Kyle stuff came up.

Check this out
http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm

Ventura is a piece of shitThat doesn't change a thing.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:16 PM

Though it's funny when that guy says SEALs don't have time to write books.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:18 PM

That doesn't change a thing.
Sheds some light on Ventura.

Then there is this

Debbie Lee, who lost her son, Navy SEAL Marc Lee, in Iraq, said the group was mournful and respectful. "It was not a belly-up-to-the-bar type of event," she wrote.
One of her son's SEAL teammates introduced her to Ventura, whom she found offensive. She said she heard him criticize the war and called President George Bush a jerk. Ventura could only talk about himself, she said. "He did not say he was sorry for my loss."
Bob Gassoff, the SEAL who introduced Lee to Ventura, said the former governor wore a beard braided into pony tails and a blue SEAL team hat. "He was badmouthing the war and President Bush. He was upsetting the families of deceased SEALs," Gassoff said.
Andrew Paul, a reservist Navy SEAL, said he notified Mansoor's family about his death and helped carry his body off the plane.
"I grew up watching [the movie] 'Predator' and professional wrestling. I thought it would be cool to meet 'The Body,'" he said.
But Ventura's behavior that night revolted him, Paul said. "He was saying the wrong things in the wrong place at the wrong time. In my opinion, he was being as anti-American as you can possibly get. Now, he would probably argue that he was being very American by challenging the government, but for a bunch of guys who had just laid their lives on the line for their country and who were at a wake for their fallen comrade, he's lucky the punch to the face is all he got."
Most of those swearing out declarations said they didn't see Kyle hit Ventura, but claim they saw the commotion and the aftermath as Kyle took off and Ventura clambered up from the ground with blood on his face.
Jeremiah Dinnell, an active-duty SEAL, was the exception.
"I heard Ventura say that we shouldn't be over in Iraq, doing what we were doing," he said. "And then he said that the SEALs deserved to lose some guys because of what we were doing.
"That's when Chris punched him. All of us wanted to. Chris was just the first one to pop him."

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:20 PM

Sheds some light on Ventura.

Then there is this

Debbie Lee, who lost her son, Navy SEAL Marc Lee, in Iraq, said the group was mournful and respectful. "It was not a belly-up-to-the-bar type of event," she wrote.
One of her son's SEAL teammates introduced her to Ventura, whom she found offensive. She said she heard him criticize the war and called President George Bush a jerk. Ventura could only talk about himself, she said. "He did not say he was sorry for my loss."
Bob Gassoff, the SEAL who introduced Lee to Ventura, said the former governor wore a beard braided into pony tails and a blue SEAL team hat. "He was badmouthing the war and President Bush. He was upsetting the families of deceased SEALs," Gassoff said.
Andrew Paul, a reservist Navy SEAL, said he notified Mansoor's family about his death and helped carry his body off the plane.
"I grew up watching [the movie] 'Predator' and professional wrestling. I thought it would be cool to meet 'The Body,'" he said.
But Ventura's behavior that night revolted him, Paul said. "He was saying the wrong things in the wrong place at the wrong time. In my opinion, he was being as anti-American as you can possibly get. Now, he would probably argue that he was being very American by challenging the government, but for a bunch of guys who had just laid their lives on the line for their country and who were at a wake for their fallen comrade, he's lucky the punch to the face is all he got."
Most of those swearing out declarations said they didn't see Kyle hit Ventura, but claim they saw the commotion and the aftermath as Kyle took off and Ventura clambered up from the ground with blood on his face.
Jeremiah Dinnell, an active-duty SEAL, was the exception.
"I heard Ventura say that we shouldn't be over in Iraq, doing what we were doing," he said. "And then he said that the SEALs deserved to lose some guys because of what we were doing.
"That's when Chris punched him. All of us wanted to. Chris was just the first one to pop him."

That doesn't change a thing.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:20 PM

I know Kyle lied, but about the Ventura thing I'm not so sure. The piece of shit Ventura should never have gone after the widow once his first case was dismissed after Kyle's murder.

CosmicCowboy

02-05-2015, 08:20 PM

Wow hadn't seen that.

Why the hell weren't they there at the civil trial?

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:33 PM

Wow hadn't seen that.

Why the hell weren't they there at the civil trial?
Don't know if they were or weren't.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:35 PM

I know Kyle lied, but about the Ventura thing I'm not so sure. The piece of shit Ventura should never have gone after the widow once his first case was dismissed after Kyle's murder.He sued the estate.

It's not like the widow is broke.

And I don't give a shit about Ventura, just saying he was well within his rights.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:43 PM

He sued the estate.

It's not like the widow is broke.

And I don't give a shit about Ventura, just saying he was well within his rights.it has nothing to do with her being broke, Ventura has no morals. I've got no problem with him going after an alive Kyle, drop it once he's murdered though for fuck's sake. The ironic thing in all of this is Ventura sued for defamation and in doing so has caused far greater defamation to himself.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:44 PM

Chump have you read the book or seen the movie?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:46 PM

it has nothing to do with her being broke, Ventura has no morals. I've got no problem with him going after an alive Kyle, drop it once he's murdered though for fuck's sake.Why? The lie was still out there making money for the estate.
The ironic thing in all of this is Ventura sued for defamation and in doing so has caused far greater defamation to himself.No one can control the butthurt of others.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:48 PM

Chump have you read the book or seen the movie?Nope.

Will watch the movie when it's out of first run. Might end up reading the book to A/B it. I imagine it could be as dry as Schultz's Foxcatcher book.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:49 PM

Why? The lie was still out there making money for the estate.
Did Ventura sue for saying the punch was a lie or him saying seals deserved to die was a lie?

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 08:52 PM

Nope.

Will watch the movie when it's out of first run. Might end up reading the book to A/B it. I imagine it could be as dry as Schultz's Foxcatcher book.
The book is dry, I enjoyed reading Lone Survivor much more. Lone Survivor the movie was terrible.

And lol @ you in this thread having neither read the book nor watched the movie.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:54 PM

Did Ventura sue for saying the punch was a lie or him saying seals deserved to die was a lie?Haven't seen the actual documents but it looks like both.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 08:56 PM

The book is dry, I enjoyed reading Lone Survivor much more. Lone Survivor the movie was terrible.

And lol @ you in this thread having neither read the book nor watched the movie.I had already stipulated this.

Why should it completely exclude me from discussing Kyle's documented lies?

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 09:00 PM

Haven't seen the actual documents but it looks like both.

I haven't seen them either but I don't think it was both, I think it was what he said about the seals.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 09:02 PM

I had already stipulated this.

Why should it completely exclude me from discussing Kyle's documented lies?
I'm not saying you should be excluded at all, it's really funny though the person with the most posts in a thread about the movie American Sniper has neither seen the movie nor read the book.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 09:04 PM

I haven't seen them either but I don't think it was both, I think it was what he said about the seals.
On the stand, Mr. Ventura said the events in the book had never occurred. Mr. Ventura said that he had been at the bar that night — reuniting with old Navy colleagues before a SEAL graduation ceremony the next day — but that he recalled no confrontation and was uncertain whether he had even come across Mr. Kyle in the bar. Mr. Ventura said he was not drinking alcohol that night and has not since 2002, when he was put on blood-thinning medication.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/12/us/in-court-ex-governor-jesse-venturas-matches-outsize-image.html?_r=0

It was the whole shebang.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 09:06 PM

I'm not saying you should be excluded at all, it's really funny though the person with the most posts in a thread about the movie American Sniper has neither seen the movie nor read the book.Well, we got to talking about Kyle's lies and folks took it personally since they were best buds with Kyle and all Navy SEALs in their own respective rights.

That makes for some posts.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 09:14 PM

Well, we got to talking about Kyle's lies and folks took it personally since they were best buds with Kyle and all Navy SEALs in their own respective rights.

That makes for some posts.
It's still funny regardless. I used to find you pathetic and annoying but now I truly respect the dedication you've shown over the years to this website and the Internet in general.

Do do you believe Ventura wins the suit if Kyle was still alive? I sure don't.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 09:18 PM

Do do you believe Ventura wins the suit if Kyle was still alive? I sure don't.Actually I do. Kyle messed up his defense while he was still alive in his taped deposition. He couldn't provide a straight, consistent story. The estate's best chance was with martyred Kyle and grieving widow imo. From what I've read the estate's lawyer was really trying to work on the jury's emotions rather than the facts of the case.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 09:32 PM

Eh I still don't think Ventura's would have stood with Kyle alive. What witnesses were called in the second suit? Was it basically dead Kyle vs Ventura? Strange too final jury count was 8-2

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 09:39 PM

Eh I still don't think Ventura's would have stood with Kyle alive. What witnesses were called in the second suit? Was it basically dead Kyle vs Ventura?I'm sure all the testimony from every witness was available to the defense. Trouble was there were as many versions of the story as there were witnesses.
Strange too final jury count was 8-2Why is that strange? It's civil court.

Seriously, defamation cases are damn hard to win. This one wasn't even close.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 09:54 PM

I'm sure all the testimony from every witness was available to the defense. Trouble was there were as many versions of the story as there were witnesses.Link?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 10:04 PM

Link?I don't know to which "second trial" you are referring. The only mention I see is a suit against the publisher.

The trial from which this judgment came had 11 defense witnesses.

And then there’s the quote: “You deserve to lose a few.”

That is what Ventura said hurt his reputation, the accusation he said that military members deserve to die. It is really the entire reason we are here. And here’s the problem with that, if I were on that jury. Only one person of the defense’s 11 witnesses said they heard it too. And that witness is a fellow SEAL who admitted to drinking heavily, who admitted he was disgusted that Ventura had pushed this lawsuit after Chris Kyle’s murder and said he walked up just as Ventura said those words and Kyle slugged him. Ventura’s lawyer suggested that was awfully convenient timing.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/26114376/verdict-watch-at-jesse-ventura-defamation-trial

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 10:23 PM

I don't know to which "second trial" you are referring. The only mention I see is a suit against the publisher.

The trial from which this judgment came had 11 defense witnesses.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/26114376/verdict-watch-at-jesse-ventura-defamation-trialfirst defamation suit was dropped after Kyle was murdered. Second suit was brought against the estate.

So it really was about what Kyle said he said about the seals, and not about the fight. I wonder if the fight did actually happen? Would be interesting to read the transcripts and see if Ventura denies it under oath.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 10:36 PM

first defamation suit was dropped after Kyle was murdered. Second suit was brought against the estate.OK. 11 witnesses.

So it really was about what Kyle said he said about the seals, and not about the fight.Both, since he wrote about both, though the judge told the jury they were not determining if Ventura got punched -- it was about the story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/jesse-ventura-lawsuit_n_5631153.html

.
I wonder if the fight did actually happen? Would be interesting to read the transcripts and see if Ventura denies it under oath.From what I can piece together, I think Ventura claims he wasn't even there at the time of the alleged incident.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 10:43 PM

OK. 11 witnesses.

Both, since he wrote about both, though the judge told the jury they were not determining if Ventura got punched -- it was about the story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/jesse-ventura-lawsuit_n_5631153.html

.From what I can piece together, I think Ventura claims he wasn't even there at the time of the alleged incident.Ventura Also claimed Bush was behind 9-11, the CIA followed him to Cuba, NSA agents found and confronted him when he was governor, and that he's living in Mexico to escape drones being able to track him.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 10:45 PM

Ventura Also claimed Bush was behind 9-11, the CIA followed him to Cuba, NSA agents found and confronted him when he was governor, and that he's living in Mexico to escape drones being able to track him.You sound like the estate's defense lawyer tbh. That's pretty much what he tried.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 10:52 PM

You sound like the estate's defense lawyer tbh. That's pretty much what he tried.

It's valid though.

And both are proven liars, I just tend to side with the dead guy who faithfully served his country and couldn't testify in the case over the batshit crazy American hater trying to keep his name in the news.

boutons_deux

02-05-2015, 10:57 PM

"dead guy who faithfully served his country"

:lol he served his homicidal psychosis and incidentally got Big UK/US Oilco's into Iraq. USA had fuck all to do with Iraq.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 10:59 PM

It's valid though.Not at all. All that mattered were the facts of the case. Ventura proved his version to the satisfaction of the majority of the jury both sides agreed to.

And both are proven liars, I just tend to side with the dead guy who faithfully served his country and couldn't testify in the case over the batshit crazy American hater trying to keep his name in the news.Kyle's statement was entered into evidence. It's probably best he didn't testify. Would probably have yet another version of the story.

And there is no evidence Ventura did not serve his country faithfully. I think the guy is a loon with the conspiracy talk, but I tend to believe he believes it. Could just be mental.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 11:06 PM

"dead guy who faithfully served his country"

:lol he served his homicidal psychosis and incidentally got Big UK/US Oilco's into Iraq. USA had fuck all to do with Iraq.

Iraq was a huge fuck up but Chris Kyle still faithfully served his country and thousands of soldiers are alive walking the streets among you today because of him. I don't blame soldiers one bit for Iraq

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 11:12 PM

Not at all. All that mattered were the facts of the case. Ventura proved his version to the satisfaction of the majority of the jury both sides agreed to.

Kyle's statement was entered into evidence. It's probably best he didn't testify. Would probably have yet another version of the story.

And there is no evidence Ventura did not serve his country faithfully. I think the guy is a loon with the conspiracy talk, but I tend to believe he believes it. Could just be mental.
I just don't believe Ventura's version of the night as told much like I don't fully believe Kyle's version of the night.

and Ventura served his country for sure, he just lied about when, where, and with which team.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 11:15 PM

I just don't believe Ventura's version of the night as told much like I don't fully believe Kyle's version of the night.Um, good for you?

and Ventura served his country for sure, he just lied about when, where, and with which team.Yeah, that article was angry inside baseball. As far as I can tell he was UDT in Vietnam but didn't see combat there. I'm not much into any one person's autobiography for all the reasons we've been over.

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 11:21 PM

Um, good for you?thanks. Now go watch the movie so you can add something to this thread lol

Yeah, that article was angry inside baseball. As far as I can tell he was UDT in Vietnam but didn't see combat there. I'm not much into any one person's autobiography for all the reasons we've been over.

Who would you have rather had lunch with Kyle or Ventura?

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 11:24 PM

thanks. Now go watch the movie so you can add something to this thread lolWhen it hits the discount house. No reason to blow more on regular type movies.

Who would you have rather had lunch with Kyle or Ventura?Are you kidding?

Ventura hands down. How entertaining would that shit be?

TheSanityAnnex

02-05-2015, 11:44 PM

I imagine lunch with Ventura would be much like lunch with boutons.

ChumpDumper

02-05-2015, 11:46 PM

I wouldn't expect to get two words in edgewise -- just bring up a topic and watch him go.

Aztecfan03

02-06-2015, 12:19 AM

When it hits the discount house. No reason to blow more on regular type movies.

Are you kidding?

Ventura hands down. How entertaining would that shit be?

I think annoying and embarassing would be more accurate descriptions.

Aztecfan03

02-06-2015, 12:20 AM

I imagine lunch with Ventura would be much like lunch with boutons.

but louder. Unless boutons is also like that.

boutons_deux

02-06-2015, 06:04 AM

Iraq was a huge fuck up but Chris Kyle still faithfully served his country and thousands of soldiers are alive walking the streets among you today because of him. I don't blame soldiers one bit for Iraq

If Kyle had a brain instead of a homicidal psychosis, he could have seen the Repugs were LYING about Iraq right from 9/12 for 2 years before invading Iraq for oil. But the might have gotten "friendly fired" like Tillman.

VN vets were, are screwed because they were drafted, but after VN, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the Ms of dead and fucked up vets FOR NOTHING, anybody who joins the military must know they are risking themselves FOR NOTHING.

btw, I am LESS SECURE "on the streets" (ask Boston) now than in 2000 because the military destabilized the Middle East, thanks Repugs!, and lost Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Iraq, and RADICALIZED 100Ks of Muslims.

DisAsTerBot

02-06-2015, 10:05 AM

lol criticizing the president makes you a piece of shit?? oooooooooooooooook

Nbadan

05-20-2015, 01:01 AM

Iraq and liars.

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/pdfs/110345.pdf

Nbadan

05-20-2015, 01:10 AM

I think Eastwood tried not to muck up Kyle's story with the story of the war in Iraq.....at the end of the day kyle is a hero to the American troops who came home to their families because of Kyle...Every war, good or bad, has heros..

boutons_deux

05-26-2016, 08:00 AM

“AMERICAN SNIPER” CHRIS KYLE DISTORTED HIS MILITARY RECORD, DOCUMENTS SHOW (https://theintercept.com/2016/05/25/american-sniper-chris-kyle-distorted-his-military-record-documents-show/)

“All told,” Kyle wrote in his book, “I would end my career as a SEAL with two Silver Stars and five Bronze [Stars], all for valor.”

But Kyle, who was murdered by a fellow military veteran several years after leaving the Navy, embellished his military record, according to internal Navy documents (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2841171-Kyle-Citations.html) obtained by The Intercept. During his 10 years of military service and four deployments, Kyle earned one Silver Star and three Bronze Stars with Valor, a record confirmed by Navy officials.

Kyle was warned at least once before American Sniper was published that its description of his medal count was wrong, according to one current Navy officer, who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak about the case.

As Kyle’s American Sniper manuscript was distributed among SEALs, one of his former commanders, who was still on active duty, advised Kyle that his claim of having two Silver Stars was false, and he should correct it before his book was published.

https://theintercept.com/2016/05/25/american-sniper-chris-kyle-distorted-his-military-record-documents-show/?ncid=newsltushpmg00000003

TheSanityAnnex

05-26-2016, 10:45 AM

Fabbs

05-26-2016, 12:19 PM

He lied about a lot more than that.

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/05/20/mohammad-gulab-marcus-luttrell-navy-seal-lone-survivor-operation-red-wings-458139.html (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.newsweek.com_2016_05_20_mohammad-2Dgulab-2Dmarcus-2Dluttrell-2Dnavy-2Dseal-2Dlone-2Dsurvivor-2Doperation-2Dred-2Dwings-2D458139.html&d=CwMF-g&c=o6x-uYg5urBaLMPPRuq64I5b6ZOFWaPdobkZ8TbBW7M&r=fJSAJml27Xh3JQZQSTrYjXGAETDPClKIz0ldMTOs8b4&m=9XACgp-1W57MlFjllO_LWpK1tRgza4xfznzzV56INS4&s=-NGItkKbbPshEZAX8LiFemzmp3whOLM2oWxC_j8KV7w&e=)

guy was still a bad ass though
This Newsweek article is about Marcus Luttrells allegedly completely backstabbing and then abandoning the Afghan who saved him depicted by Lone Survisor.
Are you talking about Kyle or Luttrell?

TheSanityAnnex

05-26-2016, 12:43 PM

This Newsweek article is about Marcus Luttrells allegedly completely backstabbing and then abandoning the Afghan who saved him depicted by Lone Survisor.
Are you talking about Kyle or Luttrell?

My bad, was talking about Luttrell...sounds like his whole Lone Survivor story was embellished immensely

boutons_deux

07-09-2016, 06:52 PM

Navy shoots down ‘American Sniper’ Chris Kyle’s overstated claims of medals received

Responding to reports that famed “American Sniper” Chris Kyle embellished his war record with claims of medals he never received, the US Navy has released his records showing he overstated his valor awards in his best-selling book.

In an unusual move, the Navy released the late Navy Seal’s discharge paperwork showing a discrepancy between what he stated in the book — which went on to become a box office smash — and what he was actually awarded, reports USAToday (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/07/08/navy-lowers-medal-count-seal-chris-kyle/86468402/),

According to the Navy, no records were found for two of six Bronze Stars with combat ‘V’ and the second Silver Star, two of which he had said he received. The Navy did state that famed sniper had earned a single Silver Star and four Bronze Stars during his ten years of service.

“After thoroughly reviewing all available records, the Navy determined an error was made in the issuance of Chief Petty Officer Chris Kyle’s form DD214,” Ensign Marc Rockwellpate, a Navy spokesman, said in a statement.

“Specifically, the DD 214 did not accurately reflect the decorations and awards to which Kyle was officially entitled. After notifying his family of the error, the Navy issued a corrected copy of the DD 214, which accurately reflects Kyle’s years of honorable and extraordinary Navy service.”

Kyle never corrected the official record, which has cast a shadow over other claims made in his book.

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