Would most players from the past...

[KL2]

Be able to even get their shot off in today's NBA, or even defend in today's NBA? Primarily before the 90's. Each decade you had a handful of quality players and a bunch of terrible athletes, each decade the talent pool getting better and bigger, ultimately in today's game every single position is extremely athletic and powerful thanks to new technology and the advancement of sports science. There are a shit load of factors as well which have affected the overall talent pool and quality of players throughout the years as well, don't know if I'll go into that. NBA players in general are much bigger and athletic now than they were 20 years ago, more athletic at each position.

Players use a variety of methods to get their shot off in the NBA, the ability to create space is extremely important. Space can be created numerous ways, but the most efficient and common way is using your body, because it's the easiest, and it's the hardest to stop. A bump sends the defender off balance, giving you a wide open shot, creation of space.

The bigger the defender, the more stability they have, the more stability, the less they're likely they're gonna move back, the more they can challenge your shot and cut off that separation. A player's weight/strength also affects rebounding, the ability to gain position in the post/paint, screens freeing up your player, basically a very large part of the game on both sides of the ball. Sometimes a player can just be too big to guard.



So, if a player such as Mark Aguirre, 6'6 232lbs, was banging through this '86 Lakers, relying on his strength, would he have the same success going through a modern NBA team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2015.html

Note the massive size difference at each position. And even if they are the same size, they're probably not as athletic/explosive/strong. Schroeder is small but with modern technology he is extremely explosive.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzcnblhcMBg


Aguirre relied on being guarded by 6'8 212lb PF Kurt Rambis, who as you can see is glued to the floor lmao. Rambis wasn't athletic at all, he was weak, light, and would get destroyed by modern PF's. A 6'6 230lb man was rare back then, even a 6'0 180lb man was considered pretty big. You could get away with being 6'7 190lbs because everyone else around you was near the same size and had the same athleticism lol.

Why is that, haven't players always been lifting weights? Yes. Have they been lifting properly? No. The USA had very little knowledge about sports science, it was in Europe where they developed Eastern Bloc training. Which wasn't introduced until around the 70's in America, even then it took years in order for teams to start using these training methods, and now everybody does. It was not as widespread as it is now.


http://www.kylehuntfitness.com/eastern-bloc-training-methodologies/

This occurred during the cold war, advancement in sports science sky rocketed. Many people were lifting weights but they weren't doing it properly, they had no idea how to properly develop, recover, or maximize their workouts. A former football coach helped introduce them in the 70's, I believe he was the father of that famous USC QB that choked (Marinovich). He helped introduce Eastern bloc training methods to the NFL, and just like the NBA, players transformed their bodies/skills with new workouts.


You get physically superior players, far more athletic, and since it's so widespread these days every position is athletic. Eastern bloc training methods helped revolutionize sports, and it's what most pre 90's teams failed to utilize.


If Aguirre was being guarded by 6'7 240lb Leonard instead of 6'8 212lb PF Rambis, he's getting his shit pushed in.

Btw, there are different bone structures/body frames/muscles/genetics that influence a player's skills, two 200lb bodies are not built the same if they are achieved through different methods of training.

[AaronY]

So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all

[spurraider21]

So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all
such is life on SpursTalk

amirite

[AaronY]

such is life on SpursTalk

amirite
Oh indubitably

[lefty]

Malik Hairston AlexJones

[KL2]

So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all

I see you didn't even bother to read anything about Eastern Bloc training. It introduced the USA to plyometrics, explosive training, proper rest, recovery, actual sports science that we didn't know shit about back then. The act of exploding in your workouts, building explosiveness, you are building lean fast twitch muscle fibers, these are plyometrics.

The NBA uses it to produce these modern explosive athletes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo



Recovery was huge too, in order to gain strength/muscle you cannot over train, which is what many early athletes did, it was ineffective. These training methods revolutionized sports in America and throughout the world. Now everyone uses them.

[apalisoc_9]

I see you didn't even bother to read anything about Eastern Bloc training. It introduced the USA to plyometrics, explosive training, proper rest, recovery, actual sports science that we didn't know shit about back then. The act of exploding in your workouts, building explosiveness, you are building lean fast twitch muscle fibers, these are plyometrics.

The NBA uses it to produce these modern explosive athletes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo



Recovery was huge too, in order to gain strength/muscle you cannot over train, which is what many early athletes did, it was ineffective. These training methods revolutionized sports in America and throughout the world. Now everyone uses them.

it's like talking to that Stubborn old guy who think he's right...:lol

[Nathan89]

If the hypothetical doesn't allow the training benefits of the modern day then they wouldn't be able to compete. There is a reason for the training.

[apalisoc_9]

Today's Athletes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>90s>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>60's

[lefty]

I see you didn't even bother to read anything about Eastern Bloc training. It introduced the USA to plyometrics, explosive training, proper rest, recovery, actual sports science that we didn't know shit about back then. The act of exploding in your workouts, building explosiveness, you are building lean fast twitch muscle fibers, these are plyometrics.

The NBA uses it to produce these modern explosive athletes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo



Recovery was huge too, in order to gain strength/muscle you cannot over train, which is what many early athletes did, it was ineffective. These training methods revolutionized sports in America and throughout the world. Now everyone uses them.
Ok so DeMonkey Jordan and Chimpbrook are great athletes who benefit from better training/nutrition etc


Does that make them better players? Does it mean they would have been great in the 80s/90s

Fuck no :lol

[KL2]

Malik Hairston (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18403) AlexJones (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=43137)

If we really want to go into depth about it we can even start talking about the depth of talent in the old NBA which was a joke.

-Segregation in schools preventing many potential players from receiving proper training/coaching/equipment or even the ability to play bball. Civil Rights movement didn't end until '68 with the effects lingering for years.

-Popularity of basketball in school in general wasn't as high as it was now. Partially due to a salary increase which I'll cover...Player development programs were very few, basketball's popularity exploded in school sports in the 80's. Not only school sports but youth sports such as youth Basketball, which MILLIONS of American children are currently playing.

-Baseball/Boxing, two of America's most popular sports for nearly a century, boxing falling off in the 70's, Baseball not until the 90's, these sports soaked up a massive group of potential NBA talent. These days those athletes are now playing in the NFL/NBA, increasing the talent pool of elite athletes even more.

-European basketball/International basketball in general was in it's infancy as well as scouting, professional bball clubs would later be formed, and now we see teens turn professional playing among grown men, honing their games. The talent pool just increased with the billions of Euros/Asians.


-Increase in salary of NBA players. This would influence billions of children/parents/schools, because this is a potential job opportunity, and it made schools money $$$ with the attendance. The salary always affects the person's, or their parent's decision whether a that person should pursue that job professionally or steer towards a much more stable career as well.

http://hoopshype.com/articles/america_friedman.htm

Massive increase in basketball popularity didn't occur until the 80/90's with Jordan. This affected the average salary as you can see.

Average NBA salary by decade:
-1960 $12,000
-1970 $35,000
-1980 $180,000
-1990 $860,000

2014 $4.5 Million


Much more enticing than those previous figures.

[KL2]

Ok so DeMonkey Jordan and Chimpbrook are great athletes who benefit from better training/nutrition etc


Does that make them better players? Does it mean they would have been great in the 80s/90s

Fuck no :lol


Definitely not fundamentally, we've seen an increase in athleticism, but at the cost of the fundamentals of the game. Athleticism/Strength can get you in position, the rest is up to you, but having that size/athleticism makes it very easy. The fundamentals wouldn't really matter though because these guys would be like gods to many old NBA teams, just too much size/strength/skill.

[KL2]

Many people think of Bonner being slow and not athletic at all, but the reality is he's a 6'9 240lb man and he's insanely athletic, he looks like shit because he's surrounded by other insanely great athletes. Same with Duncan, even Perkins, Ayres, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMp96RXgow4

[apalisoc_9]

Bump..first page is full of garbage.

[AaronY]

8000000 word novel to say that athletes are bigger and stronger nowadays..lol..I mean fuckin lol

[KL2]

Bump..first page is full of garbage.

Kawhi Leonard is the perfect example of a player that has used plyometrics, explosive jump training workouts, in order to improve his game. It's why he's so good this year on both sides of the ball. He's much more faster laterally, he's shifting his feet much faster, moving his legs much faster, these are fast twitch muscle fibers built through eastern bloc training, explosive workouts. Because he's faster laterally he can push up on defenders, pressure them much more, get more steals without getting burned like he used to. He's also able to recover on defense faster, and compete for rebounds much better because of this. The difference is pretty obvious from last year and it's showing on the stat sheet.

Explosive training is how you develop an "explosive first step", it's in the name lol. It's achieved through doing explosive workouts, eastern bloc training. Some guys naturally have great genetics and have it, the majority don't.

It's what legendary trainer Jim Grover used to train Barkley, Jordan, Pippen, etc.

[KL2]

8000000 word novel to say that athletes are bigger and stronger nowadays..lol..I mean fuckin lol


Antiquated fans don't like going into depth tbh, too much thinking.

[apalisoc_9]

Antiquated fans don't like going into depth tbh, too much thinking.

Exactly, how else you present your points and arguments?

[KL2]

Example of a modern day 6'7 230lb+ SF using his body to create separation from body contact, his size.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Iy7Gu9pPyM

Slight hip bump knocks 226lb Wade off balance with ease taking him out of the play, runs into 240lb Chris Bosh knocking him off balance with ease, body contact/control/stability allows him to create separation and finish. Both guys much bigger or the same size than many of the old NBA players. Leonard creates separation with ease, gains great post position, rebounding position, uses separation through this.


Leonard would've been guarded by guys much smaller, weaker, not nearly as explosive aside of a handful guys in the league. I'd love to see a 200lb SF from the 80's try to guard a 270lb guy like Lebron lmao.

[hater]

pity post

[KL2]

6'8 212 PF, det body doe

http://www.egotripland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Kurt_Rambis.jpg

[midnightpulp]

I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond retarded. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.

- A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

- The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

- The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

- The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.

And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.

Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.

[midnightpulp]

I'd love to see a 200lb SF from the 80's try to guard a 270lb guy like Lebron lmao.

Prime Tayshaun Prince was probably the best individual Lebron defender in the league, and held him significantly below his averages. And that was when Bron was at his freakish athletic peak.

Bron would go off, since 80's team defense was so bad, but not because 80's players were significantly outmatched athletically. They were thinner, though, since the prevailing mindset at the time was that too much muscle would affect your shot, stamina, etc.

[313]

Mid throwing haymakers to the body :lol

[apalisoc_9]

The problem with some of mid's non-basketball examples is that it talks about general athletic ability. Strength training have marginally improved in the last 50 years, but explosiveness, Speed, and Vertical have all seen a significant improvement...

I showed him an example on how my friends 100m record would have probably made him a pro decades a ago...

[apalisoc_9]

People also forget the importance of nutrition and conditioning..Something modern players are a million times better with.

[KL2]

I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond retarded. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.


1970s: Eastern bloc training methods are introduced to the USA. One of the first uses in professional sports were the 1970's Raiders. They hired Marv Marinovich, who studied these training methods, one of the first NFL strength and conditioning coaches. He helped revolutionize NFL training, these workouts were also applied to help in basketball workouts. The 1970 Raiders also had a shit load of success, which I don't think is a coincidence.

Very few people actually had knowledge of these. As the decades go on, and our technology evolves (Internet, cellphone, tv, etc.) the spread of information increases, more and more people have access to this information.

From this point on it was a gradual process, players like Jordan, Barkley, Pippen, etc. started benefiting from it, a very small % of the league, same as the NFL.

We didn't evolve, we simply unlocked more of our physical potential through proper workouts, nutrition, and rest, through knowledge. Explosive workouts (bloc) transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today, guys with huge size and athleticism, everywhere instead of just a small % of guys.

You factor in the massive popularity of basketball now and the talent pool, combined with the fact that almost anyone has access to this information, coaches and sports trainers using these methods regularly, you're going to get a much bigger talent pool and through sheer numbers alone you will get better players, more genetic freaks.


Explosiveness is what the NBA is all about these days, it's usually what separates stars from the scrubs, the creation of space through exploding lol. It's what scouts look for. It's even what the NFL is all about, that's all they look for. Explosiveness was the result of these methods.



- A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

- The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

- The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

- The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.


These sports all have 1 thing in common. They all rely on technique. They do not have anything to do with bodily contact either. Not only that, these sports have been around for a pretty damn long time so they've pretty much perfected everything, basketball is in it's infancy.


And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.


Pippen took years to fill out, many of these players did because eastern bloc training methods were just being introduced in the late 70's/80's. He was a 200lb stick early in his career, Jordan was a stick as well as a 190lb rookie. Both guys hooked up with Tim Grover who applied these bloc methods to bball workouts. They became more widespread in the late 80's. McHale was far more experienced than Hakeem who was just 2 years pro, that entire Celtics team was, of course he was going to get picked apart.

Kawhi does not have Pippen's vertical that is the difference between he and Pippen, but he's 235-240lbs locking down guards on the perimeter and you're saying his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippens? lol. Do you realize the athleticism it takes for a man his size to be that nimble? He's not guarding the guys that were glued to the floor like many old nba players either, these guys are athletic. Nor has Leonard fully filled out, he's 23, at that age Pippen was 200lbs.



Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.



This isn't about vertical leaps, anyone can jump high. It's about explosive movements, lateral movements, agility in combination with size. How fast you can recover from being off balance on defense, your ability to explode to compete for rebounds, loose balls, run the court, challenge shots, explosive first steps, etc.

[KL2]

The problem with some of mid's non-basketball examples is that it talks about general athletic ability. Strength training have marginally improved in the last 50 years, but explosiveness, Speed, and Vertical have all seen a significant improvement...

I showed him an example on how my friends 100m record would have probably made him a pro decades a ago...


They also heavily rely on technique more than anything, running, jumping, throwing, these are all based on technique and have been around for hundreds of years. They also have 0 physical contact. Bloc methods helped create large agile athletes, which would've improve sports with physical contact the most, the NBA/NFL, which they have.


...As well as Olympic weight lifting which the Euros primarily developed it for and dominated.

[sook]

shut the fuck up.

[KL2]

shut the fuck up.

Facts are facts.

[KL2]

Prime Tayshaun Prince was probably the best individual Lebron defender in the league, and held him significantly below his averages. And that was when Bron was at his freakish athletic peak.

Bron would go off, since 80's team defense was so bad, but not because 80's players were significantly outmatched athletically. They were thinner, though, since the prevailing mindset at the time was that too much muscle would affect your shot, stamina, etc.

Prince had access to bloc method training though. Two 200lb bodies are not the same if they are achieved through different methods of training.

[apalisoc_9]

Facts are facts.

I wouldn't bother replying to posters who don't talk basketball if i were you..A waste of time. Many posters here don't really talk ball...

[sook]

Since you've already pretended to get banned on a friday night, coordinate it for Saturday this time around. CN always has his mouth ready and Harlem is a pro at changing his avi every 2 seconds.

Fucking loser :lol

[Gummi Clutch]

Since you've already pretended to get banned on a friday night, coordinate it for Saturday this time around. CN always has his mouth ready and Harlem is a pro at changing his avi every 2 seconds.

Fucking loser :lol
Wait...what?!?! I've been away for a while (partly because of that gay little shit spamming threads upstairs) but he actually coordinated getting banned with his e-buddies on a Friday night? :lmao

Strange Love (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17278), Franklin (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=26380) , Splits (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=24583)

[Gummi Clutch]

Kawhi I've kept the spurm in muh mouth till I can get this sex change :cry

My E-buddies help with the burden as well :cry

[Silver&Black]

I wouldn't bother replying to posters who don't talk basketball if i were you..A waste of time. Many posters here don't really talk ball...

^
Says the guy who posted this in the game thread:


Hoping for A PARKER INJURY..

[KL2]

^
Says the guy who posted this in the game thread:

He just wants Parker to be able to rest, the guy should be coming off the bench the way he's been playing.

[Silver&Black]

He just wants Parker to be able to rest, the guy should be coming off the bench the way he's been playing.

http://i.imgur.com/vDxJOf6.gif

[Infinite_limit]

You are ignoring a centerpiece of all this: Americans have lower thresholds today than in the past. How many Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?

In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.

Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.

[Franklin]

Wait...what?!?! I've been away for a while (partly because of that gay little shit spamming threads upstairs) but he actually coordinated getting banned with his e-buddies on a Friday night? :lmao

Strange Love (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17278), Franklin (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=26380) , Splits (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=24583)
I had endured a hard time the past few days bro. I got snubbed by a college staff job last week in the final round of interview. I didn't know what I did wrong during the interview, maybe I wasn't dressed the right way, or maybe I was just another victim of chinks' typical nepotism scandal. I kinda stayed up the whole night two nights before, I just couldn't fall asleep for some reason my heart was beating like a beast. But did I really have so much interest in such a staff job? Did I? I kept asking myself that question, lying in bed, spending the whole night trying to find out the answer.

Later I realized it wasn't the case. I'd like to grab a contract as kinda of an insurance (which I'll probably renege on later this year when I get a better one), so I would have enough courage to ask "her" out, just as I originally planned... I wanted to delay it until both of us got our desired jobs. And I believe that is the main reason why I felt so upset not getting that job. It is a staff job at our university (the one LG and I both go to) but it's said that half our university will be relocated to a new campus this coming summer, about 15 miles away from downtown, about as distant as the one we interviewed for in November, which meant it'd be nearly impossible for us to see each other during weekdays if I worked there and she at PwC. The position I applied for was one on our current campus, but most those occupations are of the new campus and it was very likely that the bastards would reassign me to one of those due to competition (or unfair competition, as I mentioned above), so I guess the snub might be a blessing in disguise. I will work harder to get a better job in the coming months, and LG won't be back here until at least May, I think, so I will actually have something to do while waiting for her, just to miss her less hopefully.

And yes, here is what I think made me sleepless that night... I got the info about some college teaching jobs (most of which will begin in March) so I sent her an email Thursday morning, to inform her of and share with her the info... And I sent her a message on AIM in the afternoon that day as a notification of the email, but neither responsive. Then about 24hrs later I still found no new income message or mail. Did she ignore me deliberately? I didn't want or even dare to think about such horrible scenario. Maybe... maybe she was visiting another city and there wasn't no internet access in the hotel room, I tried to persuade myself to believe that.

But still, I couldn't drive the depression out of my head, I lied with it in my bed, awake all the way to the morning. I was tired as shit but still couldn't achieve even a minute of legit sleep, so I started my computer... Thankfully, thank God I saw a new income mail. I didn't dare to open it immediately, instead I kept praying to God that the mail was from her, then after about ten seconds of prayers I opened the mail, and yes, it was indeed from my Lunar Goddess. I felt so happy and relieved at the moment...

She said she didn't intend to apply for those jobs... apparently she was adamantly determined to work at PwC, even those college teaching jobs that used to appeal to her so much didn't seem to attract her anymore. I was a bit disappointed at first, of course, but still it was minimal compared to the delight I felt upon seeing her e-mail. And I thought it might be a good thing for me that she wouldn't get back so soon, because it'd give me enough time to look for a good job, to revamp myself. We've already waited more than half a year and it doesn't matter to wait a few more months, we have total faith in each other. I want to make sure that when the goddess is back, I will present to her the best me I can possibly be. She must be enjoying her time at home now, and no matter how much I love her I have no right to take her away from her mom.

[Franklin]

And, even if I haven't yet got a job by the time she's back, I'll still make the move anyway. There ain't nothing that could stop me from loving my Lunar Goddess, regardless of financial reasons or shits, like my nigga sook once said. I've already waited enough. I've even thought about speaking it out online on Valentines day next week, but I decided against that idea finally because it doesn't sound like a good proposal, it'd be to informal tbh. I'll keep writing romantic poems for her for the coming months, and I'll continue to do so even after I make it official.

[Thread]

You are ignoring a centerpiece of all this: Americans have lower thresholds today than in the past. How many Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?

In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.

Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.

Inf

[sook]

And, even if I haven't yet got a job by the time she's back, I'll still make the move anyway. There ain't nothing that could stop me from loving my Lunar Goddess, regardless of financial reasons or shits, like my nigga sook once said. I've already waited enough. I've even thought about speaking it out online on Valentines day next week, but I decided against that idea finally because it doesn't sound like a good proposal, it'd be to informal tbh. I'll keep writing romantic poems for her for the coming months, and I'll continue to do so even after I make it official.

:tu

[lefty]

I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond retarded. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.

- A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

- The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

- The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

- The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.

And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.

Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.

Game



Set



And match

[KL2]

Game



Set



And match

Guess you didn't see my other post lol.



We can use another example of these methods transforming a player, Michael Jordan.

http://www.si.com/edge/2014/06/02/how-tim-grover-became-one-nbas-most-revered-trainers


"Credit the 1989 Detroit Pistons for setting Tim Grover’s career in motion. Grover saw an article in a local newspaper describing how Detroit’s physical play was affecting Michael Jordan mentally. Jordan was tired of being overpowered by his opponents, but he had injured himself in a workout with a trainer once before and was not regularly working with one at the time. Grover believed he could help Jordan. The worry was that he wouldn’t get the opportunity. Grover contacted the Bulls and eventually spoke with the head athletic trainer and the team doctor.
After a series of interviews, Grover finally met with Jordan. Grover detailed his plan for helping the young swingman get stronger and avoid injuries. He would introduce a training regimen that would better prepare Jordan for the grind of NBA competition. Jordan was skeptical. Here was a 25-year-old trainer, with no prior experience working with professional athletes, laying out how the best player in the NBA could reach new physical heights. Eventually, Jordan relented. “I’ll give you 30 days,” Grover recalls Jordan saying. “30 days turned into 15 years.”


Legendary trainer Tim Grover who was one of the first to really apply these to bball.

[KL2]

Americans would storm the beaches of Normandy? How many Black-Americans would battle thru Civil Rights? Are you familiar with the phrase "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That". It's essentially the main value that current day Blacks live by.

Americans are some of the most overindulgent people on this planet. How long would Americans survive without internet, petrol and fast food?

What does this have to do with basketball? You just brought up something totally unrelated lmao. What about all the Europeans that play bball and depend on these things, are they mentally weak too?




In terms of the backcourt: certainty more athletic and overall better. But front court, except for the ability of 7 footers to sit on the 3 point line and hit the occasional trey, the game of basketball below the 3 point line has declined. Especially the paint area, the average NBA player in the 80's was tougher. Ever heard of 'grown man strength'? A teenager twice the size of a grown man will still get his ass kicked because he has a lower threshold.

The NBA as a whole is far more athletic, understand? Old NBA had a handful of guys that could compete with today's athletes as far as size/agility/explosiveness, which matter a lot in bball. Now practically every single roster in the NBA, from top to bottom is athletic, even the guys that don't look athletic are athletic, but they're surrounded by other great athletes so they don't. Low % of athletic players old NBA, to high % of athletic players modern NBA. All because of new training methods and a much larger talent pool.

SF's are much better and MUCH bigger lmao, PFs are starting to become compact and very powerful/agile/explosive, SG's are getting much bigger as well, starting to see bigger PGs too. You don't see half as many centers stuck to the floor because they would get blown by in today's NBA, think of Duncan guarding the pick and roll, slow big men like him were a dime a dozen to expose.

Every position increasing in size/explosiveness would have a huge affect as a whole on every position. A more explosive PG/SG means you'll need explosive agile big men to guard them, bigger PG's mean stronger SG's, bigger SF's because of bigger SG's, etc. it's a chain reaction that had numerous affects. As well as no more hand checking, players HAD to get more explosive.



Do you have a scientific term other than "grown man strength"? Of course most grown men are bigger than teens, yes, they're more developed, they build muscle naturally throughout the years as opposed to a teen who won't be done filling out until his mid 20's. Kawhi Leonard uses "grown man strength" or do you think knocking down 240lb guys and scoring is not "strength"? He's just 23 lmao.

Most SF's used to be 190lbs, they also weren't nearly as athletic as many of these modern players, didn't have the size/agility/strength/explosiveness combo.



Aren't Dwight Howard and LeBron James the perfect representations of todays hormone injected NBA/NFL? Look like gladiators but get pushed around and flop because they are mentally fragile. Meanwhile Duncan looks like he never stepped foot in a Gym.


Duncan is a gym rat, he entered the league at 250lbs (bigger than D-Rob), he's lean as hell, and is a very good athlete, or was. He also uses all these training methods himself lol.

[Killakobe81]

So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all

This ...

[JamStone]

Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.

[Killakobe81]

Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.

In my Dirk voice "Shut it down!!! Let's go home!!! Take dat with you!!!! Lol

[apalisoc_9]

Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.

Sure, but I think OP is simply responding to an opinion that past superstars would dominate today's NBA had they played in today's NBA without the advancement in training and nutrition..Just flat out put chamberlain's 60's self into today's nba and see him dominate..

Many kids today have this opinion for some reason.

[apalisoc_9]

The idea that past players with their past peak conditions would dominante today's league is probably what OP is arguing against...

[Bynumite]

So the players today are bigger, taller and stronger yet the game is going away from the post in favor of jumpshooting.

I guess niggas must be getting dumber as well and can't learn simple post moves.

[apalisoc_9]

Those two don't contradict each other.

[daslicer]

So the players today are bigger, taller and stronger yet the game is going away from the post in favor of jumpshooting.

I guess niggas must be getting dumber as well and can't learn simple post moves.

:lol I found this funny but I agree.

[ohmwrecker]

Dumb.

[K...]

Basketball is a skilled sport. I don't think you learn skill from plyometrics. Id agree athletic players from today can probably out run and out jump classic era players, but in today's nba the best players aren't always highly athletic. It's still a skill league.

Ps, learn to write less KL. It's a true life skill. Modern writers have it easy with their computers. It doesn't make them better writers. Writing is still a skills game.

[Stalin]

So the players today are bigger, taller and stronger yet the game is going away from the post in favor of jumpshooting.

I guess niggas must be getting dumber as well and can't learn simple post moves.




:lol:lol:lol

[KL2]

Any of these hypotheses of placing players from the past in today's NBA or current players in the past and using an argument of advancements in exercise, nutrition, conditioning, recovery, and sport science in general create an obvious and fundamental paradox in the entire discussion and your argument in particular.

You cannot simply say a player from the past wouldn't be able to get a shot of in today's NBA because the players are bigger, taller, stronger, quicker, etc. and then simply ignore any notion that that player from the past would also be afforded those technological advancements in sports science to maximize their physical abilities through better and smarter conditioning, weight training, nutrition, and medicine for quicker and better recovery periods. You take a guy from the 1960s and put him in the 2000s, that player would also grow up in an era where basketball players play year round, weight train year round, have the best doctors and surgeons, physical therapists, trainers, nutritionists, etc.

You have to make the playing field equal when you throw out a theory like this.

Same goes for the opposite. You put LeBron James in the 1960s, he doesn't become the same player he is today. He doesn't work out like he does. He probably gets forced into playing center in high school and never develops the perimeter skills he has. He probably weights 215-220, not 260+. A 6'8, 220 LeBron playing center even in that era has a very different career trajectory. If you put a player in today's NBA back in the past, then you take away all those advancements in sports science that give current NBA players advantages today.

The hypothesis was a paradox to begin with because you ignored and/or intentionally avoided to make a rational and logical parallel to the outside factors that were in fact part of the backbone of your argument in the first place.


The idea that past players with their past peak conditions would dominante today's league is probably what OP is arguing against...


Sure, but I think OP is simply responding to an opinion that past superstars would dominate today's NBA had they played in today's NBA without the advancement in training and nutrition..Just flat out put chamberlain's 60's self into today's nba and see him dominate..

Many kids today have this opinion for some reason.


This is exactly what I'm saying. People think these 80's teams could compete with modern teams. The talent pool was small, sports science in America wasn't nearly as developed, training that affects basketball, and when it was, one of it's first uses was used on Jordan, to help him transform his body and beat your team in '90.

There probably was a Lebron out there, I acknowledged this, they didn't have access to these training techniques.

What players are doing now, the difficulty of the game has increased overall, among the entire NBA. That is due to everything I covered, factors affecting popularity, the overall talent pool, new era athletic players on all rosters with great size from top to bottom thanks to new training methods. Size/Agility has a huge impact on the game. It's devolved in some aspects, but overall many of these modern teams would smash the old teams of the late 80's because at every position they are physically superior.

[KL2]

Basketball is a skilled sport. I don't think you learn skill from plyometrics. Id agree athletic players from today can probably out run and out jump classic era players, but in today's nba the best players aren't always highly athletic. It's still a skill league.

Ps, learn to write less KL. It's a true life skill. Modern writers have it easy with their computers. It doesn't make them better writers. Writing is still a skills game.

In 1989 a 25 year old man named Tim Grover read an article in a newspaper about how Jordan struggled with the Piston's physicality. Jordan was too small, he lacked the size and overall explosiveness to beat these teams. Grover had studied eastern bloc methods and figured out how to apply these exercises in order to help a basketball player, as well as help him gain mass/strength through proper rest and technique/exercises. Despite Grover not having any previous experience whatsoever training a professional athlete, he took Jordan's game to new levels.

Proper training, rest, technique, allowed Jordan to maximize his workouts, workouts tailored for basketball "muscles". It added weight, more overall explosiveness, through this he became the ATG because he was now able to create more separation through bodily contact with his increased size/agility.


Now these techniques are well known and applied everywhere, that's just the very beginning of how the NBA improved throughout the years.

[KL2]

So the players today are bigger, taller and stronger yet the game is going away from the post in favor of jumpshooting.

I guess niggas must be getting dumber as well and can't learn simple post moves.


lol, do you know why they aren't learning post moves? Because they're dunking on kids in the 7th grade, from a young age they abandon the fundamentals and rely on their athleticism/size because they dominate with it among physically inferior players. How did all these players get this athleticism? Eastern training bloc methods, the same way Jordan got his, the guy they are trying to emulate lmfao.

Players aren't getting taller, they're becoming heavier, stronger, and agile through proper training, like MJ/Pippen did. That's why there are so many 6'9 240+lb PF's in the league, 6'3 200lb guards, 230lb SF's, explosive and strong at every position.

The game is also evolving, strategy, coaching, is all getting better, spacing and ball movement is incredibly important.

Ever heard of "NBA size"? You need to develop physically in order to compete in the NBA, you need enough size/strength/explosiveness, it is now gained through bloc training.

[midnightpulp]

The problem with some of mid's non-basketball examples is that it talks about general athletic ability. Strength training have marginally improved in the last 50 years, but explosiveness, Speed, and Vertical have all seen a significant improvement...

I showed him an example on how my friends 100m record would have probably made him a pro decades a ago...

Where's your evidence for that claim? You have none. As I've stated numerous times, Olympic records for events that are centered on those athletic traits have pretty much stagnated over the past 50-60 years.

And like I told you in our past discussion on this topic, your friend's time would not qualify him to be a World Class sprinter in any era. Even the marks set in 1896 were far superior to your friend's time.

[DMC]

I see you didn't even bother to read anything about Eastern Bloc training. It introduced the USA to plyometrics, explosive training, proper rest, recovery, actual sports science that we didn't know shit about back then. The act of exploding in your workouts, building explosiveness, you are building lean fast twitch muscle fibers, these are plyometrics.

The NBA uses it to produce these modern explosive athletes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo



Recovery was huge too, in order to gain strength/muscle you cannot over train, which is what many early athletes did, it was ineffective. These training methods revolutionized sports in America and throughout the world. Now everyone uses them.
Pretty sure AaronY knows what plyometrics are.

[DMC]

The game isn't getting better. The game is getting to be more popular and the NBA is finding ways to market itself. The betterment of the game isn't a style or anything of the sort. The game is only as good as it's entertainment value. If you like monkey ball, it doesn't get any better than the prime Clippers. If you like ball movement and fluid game play, you'll like the 2014 Spurs. The game is just a game, and teams should get more proficient over time. It's not chess, it's not even 100 years old so it should be improving still. Airplanes are improving as well.

[KaiRMD1]

Old sports can do anything

[midnightpulp]

1970s: Eastern bloc training methods are introduced to the USA. One of the first uses in professional sports were the 1970's Raiders. They hired Marv Marinovich, who studied these training methods, one of the first NFL strength and conditioning coaches. He helped revolutionize NFL training, these workouts were also applied to help in basketball workouts. The 1970 Raiders also had a shit load of success, which I don't think is a coincidence.

Very few people actually had knowledge of these. As the decades go on, and our technology evolves (Internet, cellphone, tv, etc.) the spread of information increases, more and more people have access to this information.

From this point on it was a gradual process, players like Jordan, Barkley, Pippen, etc. started benefiting from it, a very small % of the league, same as the NFL.

We didn't evolve, we simply unlocked more of our physical potential through proper workouts, nutrition, and rest, through knowledge. Explosive workouts (bloc) transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today, guys with huge size and athleticism, everywhere instead of just a small % of guys.

You factor in the massive popularity of basketball now and the talent pool, combined with the fact that almost anyone has access to this information, coaches and sports trainers using these methods regularly, you're going to get a much bigger talent pool and through sheer numbers alone you will get better players, more genetic freaks.

I don't deny that. I deny your hyperbolic claims that we've seen some kind of magical and exponential growth in athleticism since the introduction of modern training methods. We haven't (primarily because exponential growth, even in technology [aside from Intel's efforts to self-fulfill Moore's Law by just wantonly cramming more transistors on a chip], doesn't happen). Athletic "evolution" has been only marginally incremental. For example, the 100M World Record in 1906 was 10.6 seconds. In 109 years, with all our technology, growing knowledge of sports science and medicine, use of PEDs, improved sprinting techniques, we've only managed to improve on that time by 1.02 seconds. When you consider that in a "growth" context, it's unimpressive. Just imagine if humanity improved on the Wright Brothers first flight by only 10%. Sure, modern athletes will have an athletic edge over their past counterparts, but not the kind of edge where a past player "wouldn't be able to get his shot off." Bird, Gervin, Alex English, etc would still be capable of dropping 30 on Leonard. They wouldn't do it as efficiently, probably, but they wouldn't be reduced to scrubs like you seem to be implying. Same thing with Wilt and Russell on the rebounding side of things.

I don't disagree with your claim. I disagree with the overstatement of your claim. There's zero evidence to support it, and Tim Grover anecdotes don't count.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and player size isn't significantly larger overall than it was in 1986, and has been trending downward over the past decade (which makes sense, since the game got faster and more perimeter oriented since the rule changes):

http://oi61.tinypic.com/6g90di.jpg

[lefty]

So the players today are bigger, taller and stronger yet the game is going away from the post in favor of jumpshooting.

I guess niggas must be getting dumber as well and can't learn simple post moves.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, and player size isn't significantly larger overall than is was in 1986, and has been trending downward over the past decade (which makes sense, since the game got faster and more perimeter oriented since the rule changes):

http://oi61.tinypic.com/6g90di.jpg:madrun They're explosive! :madrun

[K...]

The problem is that op is taking one variable, a purported advance in training, and ignoring others like rule changes, growth in popularity, higher salary, growth in the amount of teams, foreign player introduction, and changes in player development, to name a few.



It seems like we've debated this before a few times too.

[KL2]

I don't deny that. I deny your hyperbolic claims that we've seen some kind of magical and exponential growth in athleticism since the introduction of modern training methods. We haven't (primarily because exponential growth, even in technology [aside from Intel's efforts to self-fulfill Moore's Law by just wantonly cramming more transistors on a chip], doesn't happen). Athletic "evolution" has been only marginally incremental. For example, the 100M World Record in 1906 was 10.6 seconds. In 109 years, with all our technology, growing knowledge of sports science and medicine, use of PEDs, improved sprinting techniques, we've only managed to improve on that time by 1.02 seconds. When you consider that in a "growth" context, it's unimpressive. Just imagine if humanity improved on the Wright Brothers first flight by only 10%. Sure, modern athletes will have an athletic edge over their past counterparts, but not the kind of edge where a past player "wouldn't be able to get his shot off." Bird, Gervin, Alex English, etc would still be capable of dropping 30 on Leonard. They wouldn't do it as efficiently, probably, but they wouldn't be reduced to scrubs like you seem to be implying. Same thing with Wilt and Russell on the rebounding side of things.

I don't disagree with your claim. I disagree with the overstatement of your claim. There's zero evidence to support it, and Tim Grover anecdotes don't count.

You ignored what I said, those Olympic sports primarily have to do with technique, the act of throwing requires technique, the act of running, jumping, swimming, these are all based around technique. I'm strong as shit but I can't throw a football to save my life, because I don't have proper technique. Furthermore these sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques/training methods, it's had a very large talent pool as well compared to bball. Having a large selection of athletes itself improves the NBA as a whole.

Furthermore none of those sports have bodily contact. These training methods would have the most affect on sports that do, such as the NFL/NBA, which they did. Sports where players make an attempt to physically push each other out of the way. You can observe with your own eyes player are bigger, more agile, explosive, in both sports. Everything you've ever learned about weight training and proper rest is the result of these studies, it's common knowledge know, wasn't back then.


Btw, I highly doubt that 1906 record was legit. I believe they used to hand time many of these races, as our technology increased we started getting far more accurate results. That's why we always hear NFL guys saying they've got a 4.1 40, always turns out to be way slower. Most high schools just hand time their guys as well, always come up with some ridiculous result.

[KL2]

The problem is that op is taking one variable, a purported advance in training, and ignoring others like rule changes, growth in popularity, higher salary, growth in the amount of teams, foreign player introduction, and changes in player development, to name a few.



It seems like we've debated this before a few times too.

I actually covered everything you just said in an earlier post lol.

[Nathan89]

Taller:lmao

[midnightpulp]

You ignored what I said, those Olympic sports primarily have to do with technique, the act of throwing requires technique, the act of running, jumping, swimming, these are all based around technique. I'm strong as shit but I can't throw a football to save my life, because I don't have proper technique. Furthermore these sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques/training methods, it's had a very large talent pool as well compared to bball. Having a large selection of athletes itself improves the NBA as a whole.

Furthermore none of those sports have bodily contact. These training methods would have the most affect on sports that do, such as the NFL/NBA, which they did. Sports where players make an attempt to physically push each other out of the way. You can observe with your own eyes player are bigger, more agile, explosive, in both sports. Everything you've ever learned about weight training and proper rest is the result of these studies, it's common knowledge know, wasn't back then.

I agree with you. What I disagree with is your overstatement, like your claim that a past NBA player wouldn't get his shot off and that today's players are significantly more athletic. Nothing supports that claim. And invoking eye-tests is not hard evidence.



Btw, I highly doubt that 1906 record was legit. I believe they used to hand time many of these races, as our technology increased we started getting far more accurate results. That's why we always hear NFL guys saying they've got a 4.1 40, always turns out to be way slower. Most high schools just hand time their guys as well, always come up with some ridiculous result.

I can easily argue just the same that the lack of measurement accuracy undermined 100M times for the worse. We have no way of knowing either way, and just have to go with the data we do have.

[KL2]

Oh, and player size isn't significantly larger overall than it was in 1986, and has been trending downward over the past decade (which makes sense, since the game got faster and more perimeter oriented since the rule changes):

http://oi61.tinypic.com/6g90di.jpg

Yes, players are getting smaller, but they're getting more compact thanks to these training methods, they're building lean muscle, fast twitch muscle fibers, with size. You're starting to see more combo guards, 6'4 200+lbs, more 6'9 250lb guys like the Raps today, agile enough to guard Leonard and neutralize his ability to create separation offensively through bodily contact (exactly what I'm talking about). You're starting to see less guys like 260lb Illgauskus, 250lb Gooden, 280lb Curry etc.

Two bodies of equal weight are not the same if they are achieved through different methods of training. Dragic is 190lbs, Bledsoe is 190lbs, are they the same physically? Hell no. Guys have different body structures, different genetics, different muscles they've built through these workouts. If you are doing these workouts you are trying to build muscle/strength without gaining bulk, fast twitch muscle fibers, which these workouts help greatly.

You will add size while adding explosiveness and agility. Most PG's these days are stupid explosive, Parker can't even get his shot off against most of them because he's too small physically just like most old NBA players and has lost his speed. He used bodily separation against Napier, 170lbs, he couldn't use it today against Lowry, and we see the result. This is how many old NBA players would fare.

I'm not sure how often these weights are updated either. Players are increasing in size at a far more rapid rate with proper exercise/recovery, Leonard is still listed at his rookie weight, Diaw is listed at 250 (lmao bs), etc.

[KL2]

I agree with you. What I disagree with is your overstatement, like your claim that a past NBA player wouldn't get his shot off and that today's players are significantly more athletic. Nothing supports that claim. And invoking eye-tests is not hard evidence.




I can easily argue just the same that the lack of measurement accuracy undermined 100M times for the worse. We have no way of knowing either way, and just have to go with the data we do have.

Eye test is evidence when it's a combo of agility/size, you can see how fast they move, you can see the muscles they have developed from these exercises and how it benefits them. I can tell you Calvin Johnson is a hell more athletic than many guys of the past based on his size/agility lol.

It depends on what your definition of athleticism is, flexibility, balance, agility/size/strength, reaction time, explosiveness, hand eye coordination, shifting feet, moving laterally, I consider all these things athletic. Not jumping high and dunking, those are two different things. Size and agility is very important in the NBA.

[hitmanyr2k]

You ignored what I said, those Olympic sports primarily have to do with technique, the act of throwing requires technique, the act of running, jumping, swimming, these are all based around technique. I'm strong as shit but I can't throw a football to save my life, because I don't have proper technique. Furthermore these sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques/training methods, it's had a very large talent pool as well compared to bball. Having a large selection of athletes itself improves the NBA as a whole.

The same can be said about the NBA. There's also skill and technique involved in scoring and playing defense. Players can be big and strong but if they don't learn the proper fundamentals and hone their skill then what does their athleticism matter in the long run? You keep referencing the Tim Grover article and saying that more players today are training like Jordan and Pippen used to. Jordan and Pippen also worked on their craft and became complete players along with getting stronger and muscular. I'm not seeing that in today's NBA. I see a lot of athletic knuckleheads taking long jumpers more often than not. The midrange and low post games are lost arts. That's the reason people say players of the past could compete today. Their skill level and fundamentals were simply simply better to go along with their athleticism. That's why someone earlier in this thread had the perception that Kawhi isn't nearly as athletic as Pippen was. Kawhi is athletic for sure but Pippen's skill level showcased his overall athleticism much more. His ball-handling skills are superior so he's more explosive off the dribble and had the quicker first step. There's no question Pippen's leaping ability off one foot or two feet is much better...gets off the ground quicker and jumps higher. Pippen had post moves and counters coming out of his ears which allowed him to showcase his quickness and agility with a variety of moves. Kawhi doesn't really have that kind of combined skill/athleticism yet and honestly when you look at the best SG/SFs today not many have that combination either.

[midnightpulp]

Eye test is evidence when it's a combo of agility/size, you can see how fast they move, you can see the muscles they have developed from these exercises and how it benefits them. I can tell you Calvin Johnson is a hell more athletic than many guys of the past based on his size/agility lol.

It depends on what your definition of athleticism is, flexibility, balance, agility/size/strength, reaction time, explosiveness, hand eye coordination, shifting feet, moving laterally, I consider all these things athletic. Not jumping high and dunking, those are two different things. Size and agility is very important in the NBA.

Again, those attributes have improved as specialized training techniques have improved, but not at this "exponential" level you claim.

[midnightpulp]

Yes, players are getting smaller, but they're getting more compact thanks to these training methods, they're building lean muscle, fast twitch muscle fibers, with size. You're starting to see more combo guards, 6'4 200+lbs, more 6'9 250lb guys like the Raps today, agile enough to guard Leonard and neutralize his ability to create separation offensively through bodily contact (exactly what I'm talking about). You're starting to see less guys like 260lb Illgauskus, 250lb Gooden, 280lb Curry etc.

Teams are adapting with those kind of players because of rule changes, not because athleticism has magically gotten better in the past decade. Big, low post bruisers had their place in the "Grit and Grind" defensive era (1996-2006), where going "small and athletic" was a recipe for disaster since you'd get killed on the boards and teams could easily pack the paint with their bigs and shutdown penetration. Since the rule changes, speed and spacing is what kills now, so roster building has adapted appropriately.


Two bodies of equal weight are not the same if they are achieved through different methods of training. Dragic is 190lbs, Bledsoe is 190lbs, are they the same physically? Hell no. Guys have different body structures, different genetics, different muscles they've built through these workouts. If you are doing these workouts you are trying to build muscle/strength without gaining bulk, fast twitch muscle fibers, which these workouts help greatly.

Of course. But you act like all perimeter players of the 80's were built like Kurt Rambis with comparable athleticism. Yes, they were leaner (think the bodies of James Worth, Alex English, George Gervin), but one of the reasons they were comparatively leaner is because the game was played at a much higher, up-and-down pace, so muscle mass was sacrificed for better stamina. And I don't care how "advanced" modern training methods are, they won't overcome the laws of physics, and more muscle mass will ALWAYS translate to reduced stamina. Now, I do agree that modern players train better to enhance those specific attributes you keep mentioning, but it doesn't give them some kind of figurative super power that would render a great past player ineffective. A great scorer of the era would still be able "to get his shot off," and likely get near his averages. Basketball, above all else, is a game of skill. It's why Duncan has had such a long career despite being athletically underwhelming. Same goes for Nash, Kobe, Ray Allen, etc, etc.


Most PG's these days are stupid explosive, Parker can't even get his shot off against most of them because he's too small physically just like most old NBA players and has lost his speed. He used bodily separation against Napier, 170lbs, he couldn't use it today against Lowry, and we see the result. This is how many old NBA players would fare.

Parker is almost 33 years old with a great deal of miles on his body. Of course he is going to struggle now that he's lost some of his athleticism. Such is the fate of all point guards, unless you happen to be a great shooter (Nash, Stockton, etc). I still disagree with your premise, though. Chris Paul lost a great deal of his explosiveness following his knee injury, measures 6'0", 175lb in shoes, is not particularly quick anymore, and is still averaging 17ppg and 9.5apg on 47% shooting. He might be a choker, but he has no problem "getting his shot off." And then you have literal midgets by NBA standards, like Isaiah Thomas, a threat to score 20 any given night.

But yeah, a past PG like this would "struggle to get his shot off" against Fat Lowry:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifx_gRF-ouU

[spurraider21]

Would Zach Randolph struggle in today's NBA, tbh? He's an unathletic 6'9 guy that lives in the paint. With today's modern athletes being taller and faster, with access to new training such as Eastern Bloc, would Z-Bo even be able to get his shots off if he played in today's league?

look at his highlights:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COT4FooZMU8

in today's league, he'd just be an undersized, unathletic big, but back when he was playing, he was one of the best big men in the league. Just shows how far the NBA has gotten and how outclassed guys like Randolph are. In today's NBA, athletes are just able to reach new levels with training like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo

Would a guy like Randolph even crack a roster in today's game, tbh?

[TDfan2007]

Would Zach Randolph struggle in today's NBA, tbh? He's an unathletic 6'9 guy that lives in the paint. With today's modern athletes being taller and faster, with access to new training such as Eastern Bloc, would Z-Bo even be able to get his shots off if he played in today's league?

look at his highlights:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COT4FooZMU8

in today's league, he'd just be an undersized, unathletic big, but back when he was playing, he was one of the best big men in the league. Just shows how far the NBA has gotten and how outclassed guys like Randolph are. In today's NBA, athletes are just able to reach new levels with training like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmvRCO4VWo

Would a guy like Randolph even crack a roster in today's game, tbh?

:lol exactly

[TDfan2007]

The premise behind this thread is beyond stupid. Guys like McHale, Duncan, Stockton, Zbo, etc. have made careers out of clowning players who were faster/stronger/quicker/more explosive than them.

All of the the plyometrics training in the world won't allow you to defend a crafty, fundamentally sound player. Obviously the gaps that we're discussing can't be too wide, but many-most of the players from the 80s/90s were at least comparable athletically. They had height, they had speed, and they had stamina. That's enough to score on someone if you know what you're doing.

And even if players of today could have an easier time getting their shot off, it doesn't mean jack shit if you can't make the shot due to poor fundamentals/lousy touch (see Jordan, Deandre, etc.).

[sook]

Old sports can do anything

:lmao

[Tuddy]

Of course they're much more agile and athletic but the sport is obviously about more than that. The fact that every team carries the ball on just about every possession (PGs especially) to change direction shows how they're able to exploit that athleticism in the modern game. Combine this with handchecking and you're basically inviting perimeter players to the rim untouched. That said, I couldn't see any team in history beating last years Spurs.

[daslicer]

Would anybody say the Hawks starting 5 is super Athletic. Korver,Millsap,Caroll,Hortford don't strike me as super athletes but they have the best record in the league.

[KL2]

Would Zach Randolph struggle in today's NBA, tbh? He's an unathletic 6'9 guy that lives in the paint. With today's modern athletes being taller and faster, with access to new training such as Eastern Bloc, would Z-Bo even be able to get his shots off if he played in today's league?

look at his highlights:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COT4FooZMU8

in today's league, he'd just be an undersized, unathletic big, but back when he was playing, he was one of the best big men in the league. Just shows how far the NBA has gotten and how outclassed guys like Randolph are. In today's NBA, athletes are just able to reach new levels with training like this.

Would a guy like Randolph even crack a roster in today's game, tbh?

The stupidity, damn.

If Z-Bo is around today, guess what workouts he's using? Workouts tailored by strength and conditioning coaches. Where did these coaches learn these teachings from? Eastern Bloc methods that weren't used by the NBA in the past up until the late 80's by guys like Jordan.

Z-Bo is 270+lbs and is agile/strong as hell, he has benefited from these workouts. If you surround an athlete such as Z-Bo among other athletes that are also explosive, he's going to look average. I know many of you guys like to think of Bonner as being some big weak slow guy, but he's not, he'd look like Jordan against any of you guys or non NBA players, even in the Eurol eague he could do some damage. Any non athlete you can think of in the NBA, is an insane athlete lmao.

[KL2]

The premise behind this thread is beyond stupid. Guys like McHale, Duncan, Stockton, Zbo, etc. have made careers out of clowning players who were faster/stronger/quicker/more explosive than them.

All of the the plyometrics training in the world won't allow you to defend a crafty, fundamentally sound player. Obviously the gaps that we're discussing can't be too wide, but many-most of the players from the 80s/90s were at least comparable athletically. They had height, they had speed, and they had stamina. That's enough to score on someone if you know what you're doing.

And even if players of today could have an easier time getting their shot off, it doesn't mean jack shit if you can't make the shot due to poor fundamentals/lousy touch (see Jordan, Deandre, etc.).

Stockton and McHale and much of the opposition they played against did not benefit from these workouts, what is so hard to understand?

Z-Bo, Duncan, Bonner, Davis, Diaw, all these guys have. Jordan didn't benefit from it until the the 90's because these methods were not being used, I used a real life example of this lmao.

People looked athletic, powerful, big, back then because guess who they were playing against? Other non explosive agile athletes.


Deandre can't get his shot off because guess who he's playing against? Other athletes at every position that have too benefited from these teachings such as Duncan.

Have you not heard of NBA size? You cannot make it in the NBA if you lack the size/agility/strength. The majority of NBA players back then wouldn't have NBA "Size" to make it in today's game.

[KL2]

Again, those attributes have improved as specialized training techniques have improved, but not at this "exponential" level you claim.

Really? Like Jordan didn't benefit from it? Duncan, Leonard, all modern NBA/NFL athlete? They're bigger, stronger, more agile.

I don't think you realize how much weight/agility affect the game of basketball. The play does not begin right away, guys are battling for position, using their strength/agility/quickness to guard each other, gain favorable position to score or rebound, distribute with slight hip/back/leg bumps. If you don't have that NBA "size" which is REAL, combined with that quickness, you cannot make it in today's game. You need to create shot separation. I actually pay attention to player weights and matchups, how they're built, how stable they are on defense, how fast they can move laterally/shift their feet, how agile/big they are.

Separation in the NBA is everything, it is not hard to understand. It is a massive part of the game on both sides of the ball.

[daslicer]

Stockton and McHale and much of the opposition they played against did not benefit from these workouts, what is so hard to understand?

Z-Bo, Duncan, Bonner, Davis, Diaw, all these guys have. Jordan didn't benefit from it until the the 90's because these methods were not being used, I used a real life example of this lmao.

People looked athletic, powerful, big, back then because guess who they were playing against? Other non explosive agile athletes.


Deandre can't get his shot off because guess who he's playing against? Other athletes at every position that have too benefited from these teachings such as Duncan.

Have you not heard of NBA size? You cannot make it in the NBA if you lack the size/agility/strength. The majority of NBA players back then wouldn't have NBA "Size" to make it in today's game.

Were you born during the 90's?

[KL2]

Would anybody say the Hawks starting 5 is super Athletic. Korver,Millsap,Caroll,Hortford don't strike me as super athletes but they have the best record in the league.

I would, because they're around other athletes that make them look average, agile/large/strong guys that have become this way due to these new training methods.

[KL2]

Were you born during the 90's?

Yes. It's probably why I can look back at the old game of basketball without nostalgia affecting my memory like it has so many of you. I look at the game as unbiased as I possibly can in order to judge how good players/team truly are.

[midnightpulp]

Yes. It's probably why I can look back at the old game of basketball without nostalgia affecting my memory like it has so many of you. I look at the game as unbiased as I possibly can in order to judge how good players/team truly are.

That's cute. But what you failed to provide is any type of hard evidence that NBA players are superior athletically to the point that a past NBA player "wouldn't be able to get his shot off."

And the problem is, you'll never be able to provide the evidence, because what you're claiming is pretty much an impossibility. No training method in existence nor PEDs will grant such a significant advantage to a modern athlete that an athlete of 20-30 years ago would be overwhelmed by his "explosiveness." Exponential athletic leaps like that just don't happen.

Now if you want to say a modern NBA player would out skill a past NBA player, then your argument makes much more sense and is grounded in reality. That's where we've seen the biggest leap in the game, on the skill/strategy side of things. Athletically, players have pretty much peaked over the past 25-30 years. You're correct that the talent pool has dramatically grown and players are more athletic on average because of that fact, but past athletic freaks like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Dr. J, David Thompson, Dominique, Worthy, Drexler, etc, etc would have no problem keeping up athletically with modern players. They probably get out-skilled, but that's another argument, and the argument you should pursue rather than just employing handwaving appeals to "Eastern Bloc" training.

[LkrFan]

Prime Tayshaun Prince was probably the best individual Lebron defender in the league, and held him significantly below his averages. And that was when Bron was at his freakish athletic peak.

Bron would go off, since 80's team defense was so bad, but not because 80's players were significantly outmatched athletically. They were thinner, though, since the prevailing mindset at the time was that too much muscle would affect your shot, stamina, etc.Pippen would shut LeHype down without a double team.

[K...]

This is really terrible trolling. Essentially he's just repeating the same unproven claim: that in the 1980's soviet era fitness gods came to save the NBA and it's sissy athletes. Because plyometrics is the only way to train. God help those kids that grew up just practice basketball. (FWIW, basketball itself is a great workout that aides in functional strength, cardio, and explosiveness).

Good trolling does not require so much effort. If you sincerely think you are correct, that modern training makes a superior difference, then congratulations on having an opinion. I don't think anyone disagrees with the basic premise that better training produces greater athletes. But you set the burden of proof much higher and really didn't bring more than speculation. It's been fun and all, but i don't see where this thread accomplishes anything.

[KL2]

That's cute. But what you failed to provide is any type of hard evidence that NBA players are superior athletically to the point that a past NBA player "wouldn't be able to get his shot off."

And the problem is, you'll never be able to provide the evidence, because what you're claiming is pretty much an impossibility. No training method in existence nor PEDs will grant such a significant advantage to a modern athlete that an athlete of 20-30 years ago would be overwhelmed by his "explosiveness." Exponential athletic leaps like that just don't happen.

Now if you want to say a modern NBA player would out skill a past NBA player, then your argument makes much more sense and is grounded in reality. That's where we've seen the biggest leap in the game, on the skill/strategy side of things. Athletically, players have pretty much peaked over the past 25-30 years. You're correct that the talent pool has dramatically grown and players are more athletic on average because of that fact, but past athletic freaks like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Dr. J, David Thompson, Dominique, Worthy, Drexler, etc, etc would have no problem keeping up athletically with modern players. They probably get out-skilled, but that's another argument, and the argument you should pursue rather than just employing handwaving appeals to "Eastern Bloc" training.


What are you talking about? I used numerous real life examples, it is what made Jordan, Jordan. Barkley, Pippen, players all started using these methods and benefiting from them, gaining much more lean muscle, fast twitch muscle fibers, weight, without sacrificing speed and improving balance. From then on it was applied by almost every development program. Please read what the bloc methods are. Don't you realize how important recovery is, proper weight lifting and training is to developing a body properly and avoiding injury? These studies helped to perfect these things and they weren't applied in the old NBA.

These studies had an impact on physical sports that required players to make physical contact with each other, it revolutionized all sorts of training programs through time.


The real life examples are all around you lmao. Parker being able to use bodily separation vs a 170lb guard creating passes/scoring opportunities, to not being able to use it against a 190lb guard the next day. That 170lb guard also having trouble running through his 260lb Center's screens, allowing Parker to go 1v1 at the rim. I actually pay attention to these things, you should too. Separation which is most commonly created through body contact is everything in the NBA. Agile/large athletes benefit from this the most. Why do you think rookies like Anderson have so much trouble? Even though a guy like Anderson would've had more than enough size/athleticism to thrive in the old NBA.


Why do you think I was calling Leonard the Spurs' MVP since '12? The separation he creates makes the game easy for him due to his size, as well as his defense, most teams simply lack the personnel with size/agility to guard him. The Raptors, who had several 6'9 250lb PF agile enough to inhibit Leonard's body separation heavily affected his game, yet another real life example. Start paying attention to player match ups, muscle types, etc. He also benefited from these workouts in the off season and it's why he's the best perimeter defender.

There are all sorts of bumps/hands/body contact which affect a player's ability to create separation, being agile/explosive/strong in combo with size is a must to create separation in today's NBA, to remain on balance, remain stable on defense and offense, gain position etc.


http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/30/12/66/6335925/3/960x540.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1733832/thumbs/o-KAWHI-LEONARD-570.jpg?2

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/29/files/2014/05/kevin-durant-kawhi-leonard-nba-playoffs-oklahoma-city-thunder-san-antonio-spurs2.jpg

[KL2]

Pippen would shut LeHype down without a double team.

Pippen was a 200lb stick before using these methods. Jordan couldn't handle Detroit's physicality before using these methods. The examples of it are all around you.

[KL2]

This is really terrible trolling. Essentially he's just repeating the same unproven claim: that in the 1980's soviet era fitness gods came to save the NBA and it's sissy athletes. Because plyometrics is the only way to train. God help those kids that grew up just practice basketball. (FWIW, basketball itself is a great workout that aides in functional strength, cardio, and explosiveness).

Good trolling does not require so much effort. If you sincerely think you are correct, that modern training makes a superior difference, then congratulations on having an opinion. I don't think anyone disagrees with the basic premise that better training produces greater athletes. But you set the burden of proof much higher and really didn't bring more than speculation. It's been fun and all, but i don't see where this thread accomplishes anything.


Plyometrics are just a small part of the eastern bloc methods, you clearly did not read about them.

[midnightpulp]

What are you talking about? I used numerous real life examples, it is what made Jordan, Jordan. Barkley, Pippen, players all started using these methods and benefiting from them, gaining much more lean muscle, fast twitch muscle fibers, weight, without sacrificing speed and improving balance. From then on it was applied by almost every development program. Please read what the bloc methods are. Don't you realize how important recovery is, proper weight lifting and training is to developing a body properly and avoiding injury? These studies helped to perfect these things and they weren't applied in the old NBA.

These studies had an impact on physical sports that required players to make physical contact with each other, it revolutionized all sorts of training programs through time.


The real life examples are all around you lmao. Parker being able to use bodily separation vs a 170lb guard creating passes/scoring opportunities, to not being able to use it against a 190lb guard the next day. That 170lb guard also having trouble running through his 260lb Center's screens, allowing Parker to go 1v1 at the rim. I actually pay attention to these things, you should too. Separation which is most commonly created through body contact is everything in the NBA. Agile/large athletes benefit from this the most. Why do you think rookies like Anderson have so much trouble? Even though a guy like Anderson would've had more than enough size/athleticism to thrive in the old NBA.


Why do you think I was calling Leonard the Spurs' MVP since '12? The separation he creates makes the game easy for him due to his size, as well as his defense, most teams simply lack the personnel with size/agility to guard him. The Raptors, who had several 6'9 250lb PF agile enough to inhibit Leonard's body separation heavily affected his game, yet another real life example. Start paying attention to player match ups, muscle types, etc. He also benefited from these workouts in the off season and it's why he's the best perimeter defender.

There are all sorts of bumps/hands/body contact which affect a player's ability to create separation, being agile/explosive/strong in combo with size is a must to create separation in today's NBA, to remain on balance, remain stable on defense and offense, gain position etc.




You're still missing the crux of my rebuttal.

As I've already said, numerous times, I agree that NBA players have improved those attributes through modern training methods. What I DISAGREE with is this retarded idea of yours that these "magical" Eastern Bloc methods unlocked some kind of hidden superpowers in modern athletes that give them such a SIGNIFICANT edge over a past NBA player to the point where a past athletic freak of similar athleticism would be rendered useless. Nothing supports that premise. I don't give a shit how "modern" your training methods are, human athletic ability is not a limitless well of potential, and we've pretty much tapped it out. A modern NBA player would only have a marginal advantage, at best, over a past player athletically. This can be quantified through past scouting reports that measure vertical, sprint speed, and other such attributes.

And quit using Parker as an example. It actually hurts your case more than helps it, since Parker is probably the best finishing point guard in league history and would use his body to create separation against shot-blocking bigs. And this was during a time when the league was filled with more shot-blockers.

I'm familiar with Eastern Bloc training methods. I don't need to familiarize myself with any of it. What you don't understand is that no training methods, no matter how modern, advanced, or novel is going to grant exponential gains in athletic ability. Sure, they'll improve those aforementioned attributes by maybe a fraction of a percent, which is an edge worth having and can be the difference between an All Star and a very good player, but come off the fantasy that we're watching some kind of super athletes that would totally overwhelm (athletically) players from the 70's and 80's.

[midnightpulp]

:cry He wouldn't be able to create separation against Fat Lowry :cry

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/suns/johnson_dunk_from_print8x10.jpg?1360266579

[apalisoc_9]

Not sure why you're posting Kevin Johnson's pic...

- Athletic ability improved by a ton around mid 80's

- The game in general evolved in the Miami-Spurs era..

None of these ISO 90 players stand a chance in today's team oriented basketball.

[midnightpulp]

Not sure why you're posting Kevin Johnson's pic...

- Athletic ability improved by a ton around mid 80's

- The game in general evolved in the Miami-Spurs era..

None of these ISO 90 players stand a chance in today's team oriented basketball.

Because he was a rookie in 1988. And he's of the era OP keeps claiming would be athletically outmatched.


- Athletic ability improved by a ton around mid 80's

And again, that's an era OP thinks would be overwhelmed by today's supermen. Nothing supports that idea. And I wouldn't say athleticism improved "a ton."

This is Oscar Robertson in 1960.

http://sickestaddictions.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/SA_BC_Oscar_The-Big-O_Robertson.jpg

His musculature is just as impressive as any modern day player's, his vertical is easily in the 36-38" range, possibly higher, and to do the splits in that manner (while jumping 3 feet in the air) would require an extraordinary amount of flexibility and body control. And this was achieved by doing rudimentary exercises by today's standards and eating a eggs and steak for your "nutrition."

Now it's debatable whether or not Oscar would be an all-time great player in today's era. I guess not, since he would lack some essential skills, but he sure as hell wouldn't get bullied athletically by player's reamed on "Eastern Bloc" training.

Athletic freaks are athletic freaks, and no training method is going to grant the kind of significant advantage over the other that KL is implying. Slight advantage? Sure. I agree with that.

[Killakobe81]

Of course they're much more agile and athletic but the sport is obviously about more than that. The fact that every team carries the ball on just about every possession (PGs especially) to change direction shows how they're able to exploit that athleticism in the modern game. Combine this with handchecking and you're basically inviting perimeter players to the rim untouched. That said, I couldn't see any team in history beating last years Spurs.

they were really good, but come on.

[Tuddy]

^Ive never seen ball and player movement like that, shooting, bigs that can finish and pass, defense

[ambchang]

Top 20 vertical leapers in NBA history:

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/285345-top-10-vertical-jumpers-in-nba-history

#20 Shawn Kemp: 41 inches. - 90s player
#19 Fred Jones: 42 inches. - 00s
#18 Ricky Davis: 42 inches. - 00s
#17 Dominique Wilkins: 42 inches. - 80s
#16 Vince Carter: 43 inches. - 90s/00s
#15 Julius Erving: 43 inches. - 70s/80s
#14 Tracy McGrady: 43 inches. - 00s
#13 Clyde Drexler: 43 inches. - 80s/90s
#12 Steve Francis: 43 inches. - 00s
#11 Nate Robinson: 43.5 inches. - 00s
#10 LeBron James: inches 44. - 00s/10s
#9 Deshawn Stevenson: inches 44. - 00s
#8 Dee Brown: 44 inches. - 90s
#7 Harold Minor: 44 inches. - 90s
#6 Shannon Brown: inches 44.5. - 10s
#5 Spudd Webb: 46 inches. - 80s
#4 James White: 46 inches. - 00s
#3: Jason Richardson: 46 inches. - 00s
#2: Darrell Griffith: 48 inches. - 80s
#1: Michael Jordan: 48 inches. - 80s

Waiting for the "fact" that all these players received Eastern Bloc training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience
Season Height Weight
1985–86 6' 7.36" 214.40
1986–87 6' 7.62" 215.46
1987–88 6' 7.38" 215.61
1988–89 6' 7.31" 215.58
1989–90 6' 7.09" 214.82
1990–91 6' 7.16" 216.16
1991–92 6' 7.04" 216.47
1992–93 6' 7.06" 219.86
1993–94 6' 7.34" 221.68
1994–95 6' 7.19" 221.50
1995–96 6' 7.27" 223.66
1996–97 6' 7.20" 223.67
1997–98 6' 7.11" 222.95
1998–99 6' 7.10" 222.85
1999–2000 6' 7.26" 224.68
2000–01 6' 7.03" 223.47
2001–02 6' 7.26" 224.05
2002–03 6' 7.40" 225.40
2003–04 6' 7.31" 225.45
2004–05 6' 7.26" 224.29
2005–06 6' 7.18" 223.08
2006–07 6' 6.30" 221.55
2007–08 6' 6.98" 221.00

B b b b but, different body types man. Weight doesn't matter, we are talking about body type here. But I just like to talk about how light players in the 80s weigh despite me immediately saying that it's the body type that makes the difference. BTW, I have no way of saying body types of today's players are better than those in the 80s and 90s, I will just post a few gifs out there.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1513241.1415750660!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/david-robinson.jpg, oh wait, a player from the 90s, he had Eastern Bloc training
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/253476741_890cb66ecc.jpg Crap, another guy from the 90s, Eastern Bloc
http://www.scottiepippen.com/images/scottie.jpg, damn it, another 90s guy, but Eastern block
http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightcove2/29906170001/2014/09/29906170001_3809160887001_Screen-Shot-2014-09-26-at-10-43-09-PM.jpg See, 10s player, so much more muscular than the above players ... oh wait, he isn't.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Kevin_Durant_Feb_2014.jpg Look at last year's MVP, so muscular, results of the Eastern Bloc training
http://www.nba.com/media/act_chris_paul.jpg See how his muscles and quickness allows him to create separation? It has nothing to do with timing.

Average stats for players drafted in:
2014 - 29.035 no step vert, 34.41 max vert, 9.975 bench bress, 11.6 lane agility, 3.34 3/4 court sprint
2004 - 28, 32.6, 11.00, 11.6, 3.27
2000 - 29, 33.41, 10.1, 11.6, 3.32

Literally no difference in the last 14 years. The data didn't go back further back, but we did know that Karl Malone played till his 40s in 2004 and was still productive, ditto David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, and even Arvydis Sabonis and Vlade Divacs.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=avepos&year=2000&source=All&draft=0&sort=

[Infinite_limit]

http://www.djkevinscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/dream-team-group.jpg



http://damelin.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Dream-Team.jpg





1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler



2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love

6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala

[lefty]

:cry original Dream Team

:cry no Isiah
:lol Laettner

[Stalin]

http://www.djkevinscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/dream-team-group.jpg



http://damelin.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Dream-Team.jpg





1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler



2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love

6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala




:lol:lol:lol today's NBA




Where you'll see the most aesthetically pleasing basketball in history.

[davethedope]

if OP is trying to imply we're watching the best basketball there ever has been, he's either fucking insane or 12...

im not going to argue the contrary, but I will say what I don't like about this era is the lack of rivalries and just the general "this is a business" attitude of the modern player.

the spurs big three, notwitzki, wade, and in the newer generation westbrook, durant, etc. seem to have the old mentality of play ball win championships

fatmelo, kang, etc. despite their skills lack that NBA heart that fascinated people all those years ago.

[MarioSpeedwagon]

8000000 word novel to say that athletes are bigger and stronger nowadays..lol..I mean fuckin lol

:lol

[MateoNeygro]

I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond retarded. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.

- A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.

- The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.

- The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.

- The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.

Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.

And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.

Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.

Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.

Fucking Owned that shit. Well said.

[KL2]

You're still missing the crux of my rebuttal.

As I've already said, numerous times, I agree that NBA players have improved those attributes through modern training methods. What I DISAGREE with is this retarded idea of yours that these "magical" Eastern Bloc methods unlocked some kind of hidden superpowers in modern athletes that give them such a SIGNIFICANT edge over a past NBA player to the point where a past athletic freak of similar athleticism would be rendered useless. Nothing supports that premise. I don't give a shit how "modern" your training methods are, human athletic ability is not a limitless well of potential, and we've pretty much tapped it out. A modern NBA player would only have a marginal advantage, at best, over a past player athletically. This can be quantified through past scouting reports that measure vertical, sprint speed, and other such attributes.


lol since when is actual science "magic"? These methods help you add weight/agility/speed/balance/flexibility through these methods, it is proper training that would benefit two athletes which must make bodily contact with each other. Not those Olympic sports which you mentioned which primarily require technique and make no physical contact. It transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today. Do you also believe the NFL hasn't also seen a massive increase in size/strength/agility/explosiveness?

Do you realize how hard it is to control a 270lb body like a prime Lebron? The athleticism it takes for Leonard to contort his body, shift his feet, remain agile and on balance at 240lbs. If you weigh that much, you have to build explosive muscles to propel that body, to will it to whatever you want it to do.


And quit using Parker as an example. It actually hurts your case more than helps it, since Parker is probably the best finishing point guard in league history and would use his body to create separation against shot-blocking bigs. And this was during a time when the league was filled with more shot-blockers.

He used his speed to create separation in combination with Duncan pick and rolls and Pop's play calling involving numerous screens, he threw his body into the defender at the very last second to create a slight bodily separation like he still does. The initial separation was created by speed, he no longer has that speed, can no longer get his shot off despite using that same bodily contact. This is not rocket science, watch the game, pay attention. Ask yourself, when was the last time we saw Tony guard a PG an entire 7 game series? How many years ago? PG's are getting thicker, more explosive, more 6'4 200lb guys that Parker doesn't have the size to guard. It's why Parker is the worst defender in the league this year.


I used Jordan/Pippen as examples too, what about them? They couldn't create bodily separation, couldn't handle Detroit's "physicality", so he used these methods to gain weight while adding lean fast twitch muscle. He could now create bodily separation, Pippen/Jordan could now get their shots off, they could handle Detroit's "physicality" and whatever else that would come in their way. They both added 20lbs while getting more explosive, flexible, agile. We literally saw what they looked like before and after in '90, the change it made.



I'm familiar with Eastern Bloc training methods. I don't need to familiarize myself with any of it. What you don't understand is that no training methods, no matter how modern, advanced, or novel is going to grant exponential gains in athletic ability. Sure, they'll improve those aforementioned attributes by maybe a fraction of a percent, which is an edge worth having and can be the difference between an All Star and a very good player, but come off the fantasy that we're watching some kind of super athletes that would totally overwhelm (athletically) players from the 70's and 80's.

No you're not. Because if you were you'd know exactly what it is and how much it differs from the old training regimens of the past and how many people suffered. Part of the methods is proper rest, not over training, and through this you add extra weight/muscle/agility. Which again, would benefit athletes such as NFL/NBA players which they have. Adding flexibility/size while gaining weight.

Bodily separation is key in the NBA. If you don't have it you can't make it, you need NBA size which is a fact.

We can even use the physical development as rookies as an example and how it affects their game, rookies are gaining upwards of 30-50lbs throughout their careers, Durant is up from 210 to 240+. Joran/Pippen gaining 20+lbs.

[KL2]

http://www.djkevinscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/dream-team-group.jpg






1st Team
Magic vs Paul
Jordan vs Kobe
Pippen vs James
Barkley vs Griffin
Robinson vs Chandler



2nd Team
Stockton vs Westbrook
Drexler vs Harden
Bird vs Durant
Malone vs Anthony
Ewing vs Love

6th: Mullin vs D.Williams
7th: Laettner vs Iguodala

Jordan/Pippen were around 210 in this pic almost done filling out from the eastern bloc methods they learned from legendary trainer 2 years earlier, Robinson was around 230lbs in this pic would later fill out to 250+ thanks to eastern bloc methods influencing strength/conditioning coaches around the league, Barkley may or may haven't benefited from it in '92, I'm not sure what time he added Tim Grover (who used these methods on Jordan/Pippen).

Why don't you tell us how great that Euro competition was btw, we know how developed basketball was over there lmao.

[lefty]

:lol:lol:lol today's NBA




Where you'll see the most aesthetically pleasing basketball in history.
:lol

[KL2]

Fucking Owned that shit. Well said.


Like many in this thread you get people that don't know what they're talking about ^^^

Doesn't realize these sports aren't comparable to basketball/football in any way, that they rely primarily technique and that these Olympic sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques with a massive talent pool.

[KL2]

How many people in here think the NFL hasn't benefited from it? Adding bigger/agile/flexible/explosive players?

[lefty]

NFL doesnt require a lot of brains tbh :lol

[KL2]

Top 20 vertical leapers in NBA history:

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/285345-top-10-vertical-jumpers-in-nba-history

#20 Shawn Kemp: 41 inches. - 90s player
#19 Fred Jones: 42 inches. - 00s
#18 Ricky Davis: 42 inches. - 00s
#17 Dominique Wilkins: 42 inches. - 80s
#16 Vince Carter: 43 inches. - 90s/00s
#15 Julius Erving: 43 inches. - 70s/80s
#14 Tracy McGrady: 43 inches. - 00s
#13 Clyde Drexler: 43 inches. - 80s/90s
#12 Steve Francis: 43 inches. - 00s
#11 Nate Robinson: 43.5 inches. - 00s
#10 LeBron James: inches 44. - 00s/10s
#9 Deshawn Stevenson: inches 44. - 00s
#8 Dee Brown: 44 inches. - 90s
#7 Harold Minor: 44 inches. - 90s
#6 Shannon Brown: inches 44.5. - 10s
#5 Spudd Webb: 46 inches. - 80s
#4 James White: 46 inches. - 00s
#3: Jason Richardson: 46 inches. - 00s
#2: Darrell Griffith: 48 inches. - 80s
#1: Michael Jordan: 48 inches. - 80s

Waiting for the "fact" that all these players received Eastern Bloc training.


You think vertical=athleticism lol. It's a combo of size/agility/balance/flexibility/weight.

Jordan/Pippen/Barkley etc. all received this training, they were able to add weight without sacrificing agility/explosiveness, they both gained around 30lbs and maintained their athleticism. There is your fact right there lmao.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience
Season Height Weight
1985–86 6' 7.36" 214.40
1986–87 6' 7.62" 215.46
1987–88 6' 7.38" 215.61
1988–89 6' 7.31" 215.58
1989–90 6' 7.09" 214.82
1990–91 6' 7.16" 216.16
1991–92 6' 7.04" 216.47
1992–93 6' 7.06" 219.86
1993–94 6' 7.34" 221.68
1994–95 6' 7.19" 221.50
1995–96 6' 7.27" 223.66
1996–97 6' 7.20" 223.67
1997–98 6' 7.11" 222.95
1998–99 6' 7.10" 222.85
1999–2000 6' 7.26" 224.68
2000–01 6' 7.03" 223.47
2001–02 6' 7.26" 224.05
2002–03 6' 7.40" 225.40
2003–04 6' 7.31" 225.45
2004–05 6' 7.26" 224.29
2005–06 6' 7.18" 223.08
2006–07 6' 6.30" 221.55
2007–08 6' 6.98" 221.00

B b b b but, different body types man. Weight doesn't matter, we are talking about body type here. But I just like to talk about how light players in the 80s weigh despite me immediately saying that it's the body type that makes the difference. BTW, I have no way of saying body types of today's players are better than those in the 80s and 90s, I will just post a few gifs out there.


Yes body types lol, do I have to own you with that pic again of Bird and Ibaka? It's not my fault you cannot distinguish between different types of muscle built through different exercises and how they look.



http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1513241.1415750660!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/david-robinson.jpg, oh wait, a player from the 90s, he had Eastern Bloc training
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/253476741_890cb66ecc.jpg Crap, another guy from the 90s, Eastern Bloc
http://www.scottiepippen.com/images/scottie.jpg, damn it, another 90s guy, but Eastern block
http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightcove2/29906170001/2014/09/29906170001_3809160887001_Screen-Shot-2014-09-26-at-10-43-09-PM.jpg See, 10s player, so much more muscular than the above players ... oh wait, he isn't.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Kevin_Durant_Feb_2014.jpg Look at last year's MVP, so muscular, results of the Eastern Bloc training
http://www.nba.com/media/act_chris_paul.jpg See how his muscles and quickness allows him to create separation? It has nothing to do with timing.

Average stats for players drafted in:
2014 - 29.035 no step vert, 34.41 max vert, 9.975 bench bress, 11.6 lane agility, 3.34 3/4 court sprint
2004 - 28, 32.6, 11.00, 11.6, 3.27
2000 - 29, 33.41, 10.1, 11.6, 3.32

Literally no difference in the last 14 years. The data didn't go back further back, but we did know that Karl Malone played till his 40s in 2004 and was still productive, ditto David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, and even Arvydis Sabonis and Vlade Divacs.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=avepos&year=2000&source=All&draft=0&sort=

-Robinson didn't fill out to 250lbs until late in his career, sorry, try again. He was around 230lbs early in his career.
-Malone was one of the few that used these workouts, he used many resistance training workouts tailored by eastern bloc training methods
-Pippen was 200lbs as a rookie, Jordan 190, both guys used Eastern bloc with trainer Tim Grover in '90 to add weight while also adding explosiveness/agility in combo with their weight, 10lbs is a big difference. It's not as easy to control a 230lb body as it is a 200lb body, you need to do these workouts like these guys did, in order to remain explosive with said weight gain.
-Lebron does these workouts, it's why he is so big and agile LOL. He's 6'8 250lbs, it is different than controlling a 6'7 190lb body, it isn't hard to understand. He's packed full of lean muscle, very powerful core, not my fault you can't see it lmao.
-Durant is 240lbs he gained 20+lbs of lean muscle as a rookie thanks to these methods, you continue to fail.


We're seeing less 6'7 190lb guys, less guys built like Illgauskus, Eddy Curry, the fat asses, more compact 6'4 200+lbs guys that are explosive as hell, just like Oladpio.

[UZER]

:lol magic couldn't even dribble with his left hand

[Nathan89]

"Jordan was nothing before 1990. All he could do is avg 37, 35, and 32 ppg.":lmao

[hitmanyr2k]

I used Jordan/Pippen as examples too, what about them? They couldn't create bodily separation, couldn't handle Detroit's "physicality", so he used these methods to gain weight while adding lean fast twitch muscle. He could now create bodily separation, Pippen/Jordan could now get their shots off, they could handle Detroit's "physicality" and whatever else that would come in their way. They both added 20lbs while getting more explosive, flexible, agile. We literally saw what they looked like before and after in '90, the change it made.


When it came to the Bulls and Pistons it was much more than just "physicality" :lol You're probably too young to have even seen how NBA games were back then but Jordan and Pippen simply had to get stronger because they took straight up physical BEATINGS from Detroit in the playoffs. Guards and forwards today don't know how good they have it because most of this stuff wasn't even called flagrant back then. When Jordan or Pippen went to the rim they had to prepare to be head-hunted and fouled hard.

Typical hard Rodman foul
http://i.imgur.com/gSGB6QE.gif

Isiah head-hunting while Rodman has a well-placed knee
to the groin and throws a shot for good measure
http://i.imgur.com/XK9rGZh.gif

Rodman forearm shiver to the back of the neck. Play on.
http://i.imgur.com/RgLV70A.gif

Laimbeer with the elbow smash to Jordan's face. A move
he perfected as if he were going for a shot block lol.
http://i.imgur.com/bkluI6D.gif

Laimbeer with another elbow smash to Pippen's face
and Rodman follows it up with a shove into the stands.

http://i.imgur.com/Ptbd167.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Zn3J6sz.gif

Aguirre with the forearm to the back and of course Rodman is there
with another well place knee and hip-check for good measure.
http://i.imgur.com/gMkF03j.gif

Another typical Rodman foul
http://i.imgur.com/175myf4.gif

[KL2]

"Jordan was nothing before 1990. All he could do is avg 37, 35, and 32 ppg.":lmao

He couldn't handle Detroits physicality he admitted to it lmao didn't you read the link?... it's why he hired Grover to help him gain weight, balance, explosiveness, agility, flexibility, while not sacrificing any of those things. Bodybuilding has been around for forever, basic exercises that add strength and size but don't address the various movements in bball. These new methods introduced all sorts of resistance training, balance training, explosiveness training, proper rest to maximize weight/strength gains. New strength and conditioning trainers started learning these methods from the NFL who started using it in '70 (Raiders). Started applying them to basketball workouts, figured out how to tailor them to enhance bball movements (Grover) started using them on NBA players. Now children and players are using these methods throughout the world. The information is easy to access and well known. That's why guys are getting more compact, more explosive everywhere.

Olajuwon, Barkely, Jordan, Pippen, all these guys were Grover's clients, all these guys benefited from Eastern Bloc training, the evidence is staaaaaaaacked lmao. As they all started using them the rest of the league did as well, more franchises started applying these methods to their teams and now they're everywhere.

[midnightpulp]

lol since when is actual science "magic"? These methods help you add weight/agility/speed/balance/flexibility through these methods, it is proper training that would benefit two athletes which must make bodily contact with each other. Not those Olympic sports which you mentioned which primarily require technique and make no physical contact. It transformed the NFL/NBA into what it is today. Do you also believe the NFL hasn't also seen a massive increase in size/strength/agility/explosiveness?

When the results of that actual science is overstated beyond possibility. I don't care what kind of training methods are employed, you won't magically increase human athleticism and size/speed ratio by such a significant margin, that past athletes would be totally dominated. Why you do you keep glossing over this point? I'll say it again, the great scorers of yesteryear would still play well against modern players. As well? Probably not. But not to the point where "they wouldn't get their shot off." That's nonsense. Basketball is a skill game above all else.


Do you realize how hard it is to control a 270lb body like a prime Lebron? The athleticism it takes for Leonard to contort his body, shift his feet, remain agile and on balance at 240lbs. If you weigh that much, you have to build explosive muscles to propel that body, to will it to whatever you want it to do.

Yes. And humans we're still able to do it quite well at those sizes ever before the advent of "Eastern Bloc" training.


He used his speed to create separation in combination with Duncan pick and rolls and Pop's play calling involving numerous screens, he threw his body into the defender at the very last second to create a slight bodily separation like he still does. The initial separation was created by speed, he no longer has that speed, can no longer get his shot off despite using that same bodily contact. This is not rocket science, watch the game, pay attention. Ask yourself, when was the last time we saw Tony guard a PG an entire 7 game series? How many years ago? PG's are getting thicker, more explosive, more 6'4 200lb guys that Parker doesn't have the size to guard. It's why Parker is the worst defender in the league this year.


All PG's "create separation" via speed. Actually, all wings do. It's why a great first step is the most important attribute a penetrator can have. Once a PG loses his speed, he's pretty much done as a scorer unless he's a great shooter or can post up, like Gary Payton, Andre Miller, etc. And yeah, it would stand to reason that since Parker has lost of some quickness, he'd be an even worse defender than he was in his prime. It has nothing to do with Parker's counterparts suddenly passing him by because they trained with Tim Grover. It's because he's old.


I used Jordan/Pippen as examples too, what about them? They couldn't create bodily separation, couldn't handle Detroit's "physicality", so he used these methoIds to gain weight while adding lean fast twitch muscle. He could now create bodily separation, Pippen/Jordan could now get their shots off, they could handle Detroit's "physicality" and whatever else that would come in their way. They both added 20lbs while getting more explosive, flexible, agile. We literally saw what they looked like before and after in '90, the change it made.

What? Jordan averaged 27ppg, 8.8rpg, 4.6apg, 2.0stl on .491 shooting in his first playoff series against Detroit. He had no problem offensively against that team. Where I do agree with you is that his training with Grover improved his endurance (before Grover, Jordan only trained during the off-season, but with Grover, it became a year around regimen) and strength, so he was able to finish games stronger, but this idea that he "couldn't create separation" before encountering magical Eastern Bloc training is nonsense of the highest order.

And what's this "separation" you keep talking about?


No you're not. Because if you were you'd know exactly what it is and how much it differs from the old training regimens of the past and how many people suffered. Part of the methods is proper rest, not over training, and through this you add extra weight/muscle/agility. Which again, would benefit athletes such as NFL/NBA players which they have. Adding flexibility/size while gaining weight.

Yes I am. I guess I'll have to reiterate it again, since you obviously don't understand my point of contention:

- I don't deny modern training methods and sports science have enhanced specific physical traits that are important for a basketball player to have.

- I don't deny that a past player would see a drop off in his performance if he was transported to the modern game.

- What I deny is the extent of your (unproven) claims. This silly notion that a past player would be so physically outmatched, that "he couldn't get his shot off." Where's your evidence for that? It sure as hell isn't empirical, since no training method will improve athletic ability to extreme exponential levels.

[ambchang]

You think vertical=athleticism lol. It's a combo of size/agility/balance/flexibility/weight.

And the history of size, agility, balance, flexibility and weight were all pretty much the same over the last decade and a half.


Jordan/Pippen/Barkley etc. all received this training, they were able to add weight without sacrificing agility/explosiveness, they both gained around 30lbs and maintained their athleticism. There is your fact right there lmao.

That is not a fact. Jordan's athleticism declined as he aged, leading to his heavy reliance of the low post game and turnaround jumpers and decrease in drive and kick. Barkley was clearly less athletic, but of course, it's all due to aging.



Yes body types lol, do I have to own you with that pic again of Bird and Ibaka? It's not my fault you cannot distinguish between different types of muscle built through different exercises and how they look.

I didn't have a problem with it. It's you who consistently brought up the weight argument, but them dismiss it yourself about body types. You are arguing against yourself and submarining your own logic, if you have any logic to begin with.



-Robinson didn't fill out to 250lbs until late in his career, sorry, try again. He was around 230lbs early in his career.
http://ht.cdn.turner.com/ncaa/big/2012/11/05/2278775/robinsonthumbnailjpg-2278763_frame_01_640x360.jpg, such a skinny little guy in his Navy days

-Malone was one of the few that used these workouts, he used many resistance training workouts tailored by eastern bloc training methods
http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/Workouts/MaloneWorkoutSecrets.htm
Nope, no mention of Eastern Bloc training methods. In fact, sounds like pretty normal stuff.

-Pippen was 200lbs as a rookie, Jordan 190, both guys used Eastern bloc with trainer Tim Grover in '90 to add weight while also adding explosiveness/agility in combo with their weight, 10lbs is a big difference. It's not as easy to control a 230lb body as it is a 200lb body, you need to do these workouts like these guys did, in order to remain explosive with said weight gain.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Scottie-Pippen-3959/ Nope, Pippen was 212 lbs when drafted, Jordan 195 lbs.



-Lebron does these workouts, it's why he is so big and agile LOL. He's 6'8 250lbs, it is different than controlling a 6'7 190lb body, it isn't hard to understand. He's packed full of lean muscle, very powerful core, not my fault you can't see it lmao.
Same with Karl Malone and David Robinson. They were from the 90s. You have provided no evidence that they used Eastern Bloc training methods.

His receding hairline screams PED, not my fault you can't see it lmao.

-Durant is 240lbs he gained 20+lbs of lean muscle as a rookie thanks to these methods, you continue to fail. Great improvement, I mean, the league never saw a 6'10" 240lb guy in the past. If it wasn't for the Eastern Bloc training, we will be filled with 6'5" 190lbs guys like Adrian Dantley. Oh wait, Dantley's draft weight was 208lbs (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Adrian-Dantley-2137/), and those 18lbs he gained wasn't muscles, only Durant can gain 20lbs of muscles :cry


We're seeing less 6'7 190lb guys, less guys built like Illgauskus, Eddy Curry, the fat asses, more compact 6'4 200+lbs guys that are explosive as hell, just like Oladpio.

Why would guys like Ilgauskus not go through the Eastern Bloc training when he's from the Eastern Bloc?

Too bad the average NBA player is about the same as the players in the 80s and 90s, and that all the athletic measurements NBA drafts used remained essentially the same the last 15 years.

[MateoNeygro]

Like many in this thread you get people that don't know what they're talking about ^^^

Doesn't realize these sports aren't comparable to basketball/football in any way, that they rely primarily technique and that these Olympic sports have been around for thousands of years perfecting these techniques with a massive talent pool.

Athleticism is athleticism dude. It's okay that he went in on you.

[daslicer]

KL in a nutshell "90's athletes are garbage compared to today's athletes because I was a sperm during the 90's so they can't be great."

[KL2]

When the results of that actual science is overstated beyond possibility. I don't care what kind of training methods are employed, you won't magically increase human athleticism and size/speed ratio by such a significant margin, that past athletes would be totally dominated. Why you do you keep glossing over this point? I'll say it again, the great scorers of yesteryear would still play well against modern players. As well? Probably not. But not to the point where "they wouldn't get their shot off." That's nonsense. Basketball is a skill game above all else.

If players from the past such as Bird/Johnson used these methods, they too would benefit, however many didn't. These methods simply unlock more a person's physical ability, and they were created by the USSR in '52.

Why do you think the USSR suddenly started dominating the Olympics from 52-88? They even beat team USA's basketball team to win Gold in '88 lol, it all adds up.


Basketball is a skill game but it becomes so much easier when you're just physically superior to your opponent. It requires two athletes to go head to head, to guard each other and match up physically. Sometimes size/athleticism overrule skill, and we see real life situations all the time. You can use Memphis-SA as an example, they posted up our players, rebounded on them at will, great position to do whatever they needed to do all over the court, got easy high % shots because they were just physically superior to the Spurs, they weren't more skilled at all.





Yes. And humans we're still able to do it quite well at those sizes ever before the advent of "Eastern Bloc" training.

Eastern bloc methods teach you to explode in your workouts, build lean fast twitch muscle fibers/endurance, proper rest and nutrition, they address balance/flexibility, basketball muscles and movements basically, as well as avoiding injuries. As your weight increases, your balance/agility/explosiveness etc. all must increase as well.

Many players of the past used improper rest/nutrition, causing poor gains and bodily injury. They didn't approach their workouts in an explosive manner, many of these workouts were very basic focusing on isolated muscle movements, not addressing basketball movements. They built slow twitch muscle fibers, a lot of bulk, you don't want that in a sport like basketball, it makes you slow. They were able to get away with it because others around them used the same basic training methods up until around '90 or so. Others got by on pure genetics, that in itself is completely different though.


NBA of the past-low % of guys used proper training techniques and nutrition. Very uneven playing field.

Modern NBA-Everyone uses and benefits from these methods instead of a low %. NBA rosters are stacked with sick athletes (Yes even Bonner and Duncan) from top to bottom, even playing field for a much bigger talent pool. The overall quality of NBA athletes has increased ten fold and that affects the game in a big way. You're not special anymore if you're 6'7 220+ and can run like a deer, you're common, advantages you would've had back then, you no longer do now.






All PG's "create separation" via speed. Actually, all wings do. It's why a great first step is the most important attribute a penetrator can have. Once a PG loses his speed, he's pretty much done as a scorer unless he's a great shooter or can post up, like Gary Payton, Andre Miller, etc. And yeah, it would stand to reason that since Parker has lost of some quickness, he'd be an even worse defender than he was in his prime. It has nothing to do with Parker's counterparts suddenly passing him by because they trained with Tim Grover. It's because he's old.

Speed and exploding are two different things. You develop an explosive first step by doing explosive workouts and building fast twitch muscle fibers in your legs/core. When you see a player shifting their feet, starting and stopping whether on defense or offense, imagine the ball not being there. They practiced these movements in an explosive manner over and over again.

Parker uses dribbling and fakes to create separation, get his defender off balance so he can finish them off with his speed. Parker also uses play calling and the Spurs' overall system to create separation, those Duncan screens you see leading to wide open jumpers, those pick and rolls to create separation for Parker, running Parker off numerous screens to free him up, etc. it's a lot of play calling that is creating separation for him, always has.

Guys like Schroeder/Westbrook/Oladpio/Lillard/Rose etc. most modern PG's use explosiveness to create separation, most 200+ guys also use bodily separation.




What? Jordan averaged 27ppg, 8.8rpg, 4.6apg, 2.0stl on .491 shooting in his first playoff series against Detroit. He had no problem offensively against that team. Where I do agree with you is that his training with Grover improved his endurance (before Grover, Jordan only trained during the off-season, but with Grover, it became a year around regimen) and strength, so he was able to finish games stronger, but this idea that he "couldn't create separation" before encountering magical Eastern Bloc training is nonsense of the highest order.

And what's this "separation" you keep talking about?

Stats do not fully reflect a player's performance (this is a truth we see time and time again), Jordan struggled with their physicality, he was so desperate he signed a 25 year old unknown trainer. We never saw the final product in '90 though, it took years to develop his body and fill it out.


Bodily separation is everywhere on both sides of the ball, it's a huge part of the game as I mentioned earlier.

-Defensively, a player must remain stable on defense. When an offensive is throwing their shoulder/hip/ass into you, they are trying to knock you off balance, force your feet out of defensive position to blow right by you or simply gain position to do whatever they please on the court. The bigger/denser a player is, the more stable they will be, the less separation a player will be able to create with bodily contact, they won't move back nearly as much allowing them to contest your shot.

Eastern Bloc methods made players far bigger, but more agile and all that stuff I mentioned earlier. You're seeing less 280lb Centers like Curry or Kurt Thomas, more mobile 250lb PFs, 230lb SF's, very explosive and powerful. They can now stay in front of you, it's much harder scoring on them. If they can move laterally with you, while you can't create bodily separation because they're too big and stable, you are pretty much neutralized. It's like running into a brick wall over and over again. We can use this video as the perfect example. Their ability to "recover" from being off balance defensively has also gotten much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ-toJk4OY

Leonard is too big, stable, to be knocked off by Deng who relies on physical play to create separation. He used numerous hip/waist bumps to attempt to knock Leonard off balance, as you can see this does not work. Now if Leonard was 30lbs lighter like the average SF of the past, no way Leonard is capable of doing that, he's getting burned.

This works on both sides of the ball. PG's such as Oladipo and Westbrook, SGs such as Wade, they're short but 200+lbs of muscle, they're very powerful and explosive, it allows them to create bodily separation through contact, gives them easy shots. Practically every new age PG is explosive as hell too, capable of slamming it on anybody, it's stupid. You need players with certain body types to guard them.



















Yes I am. I guess I'll have to reiterate it again, since you obviously don't understand my point of contention:

- I don't deny modern training methods and sports science have enhanced specific physical traits that are important for a basketball player to have.

- I don't deny that a past player would see a drop off in his performance if he was transported to the modern game.

- What I deny is the extent of your (unproven) claims. This silly notion that a past player would be so physically outmatched, that "he couldn't get his shot off." Where's your evidence for that? It sure as hell isn't empirical, since no training method will improve athletic ability to extreme exponential levels.

The evidence is in the game itself, players that lack "NBA size" in today's game, would have "NBA size" in the past. You can also observe players being far more explosive/athletic on NBA rosters top to bottom, it also reflects in their weights and muscle build in relation to their height. We can also draw examples of Jordan/Pippen, etc using it to get bigger and better.

This is happening every game, players always struggle with their lack of size/strength and overall athleticism is combo with those things, I always pay attention to player weights/match ups, and overall ability to create space from bodily contact on both sides of the ball. Sometimes a team simply lacks certain personnel to match up physically with a player on the court, and that physically superior player dominates. This guy is too big for player x to guard, too fast for player z to guard, he's getting boards at will, posting up at will, sucking in the defense at will, wtf do we do!?

Most players from the past relied on creating bodily separation against players MUCH smaller, on Aguirre's drives to the rim he ran into a 170lb PG, a 6'6 190lb SG, a 200lb 6'8 SF, a 212lb PF, etc. Many of these drives simply wouldn't work in today's game because players at every position are so much physically superior.

It's not just the workouts itself either, but the whole Euroleague, basketball's popularity increasing internationally, the depth pool going from hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions in combo with these methods. I'd say the NBA as a whole, every single roster, is much higher quality than before, it makes the game much harder. We've seen the game devolve but evolve, players aren't using the fundamentals as much anymore, but it's because their athleticism just overrules it.

[lefty]

Damn all those HF shots made by the old farts today

[Nathan89]

Why do you think the USSR suddenly started dominating the Olympics from 52-88? They even beat team USA's basketball team to win Gold in '88 lol, it all adds up.


Without nba players on the US team:lol

[KL2]

Without nba players on the US team:lol

They were months away from turning pro, Robinson, Manning, Dan, Augmon, Anderson, Reid, etc. stop acting like they were scrubs lmao, most of those guys went on to tear it up just a few months later in the NBA. That USSR team had 1 or 2 NBA players too :lol, not to mention the popularity/talent of basketball internationally at that time, the depth pool is nowhere nearly as strong as it is now.

[Nathan89]

Weak arguing point because of what I stated. Also the US lost in 2004 so what was Argentina's special workout plan?

[Nathan89]

Beat the college kids by 6 points. Exhibit A:lmao