Darryl Murray vs Barkley

[sook]

Man...I give Darryl a lot of shit but this is pure gold...the amount of buthurt in that fatass was palpable :lmao



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZf9NFaCQHQ#t=11

[unleashbaynes]

Who the shit is daniel murray?

[sook]

Who the shit is daniel murray?

I don't know, if he ever walks through the door I'll let you know.

[sook]

how would the pro-analytic crowd respond to Charles here, tbh?

midnightpulp,
Malik Hairston, ambchang, KillKobe81

[Gummi Clutch]

"Analytics is something a bunch of smart guys invented cuz they can't get no gurlz and nobody asked them to the prom"


Did this dumbass really take the bait...? I thought Chuck was set on a GM job around the league, how the fuck does he expect to get ever get hired like this? :lol

[lefty]

Lol analytics

[RsxPiimp]

I thought Chuck was set on a GM job around the league, how the fuck does he expect to get ever get hired like this? :lol
Billy King

[Thebesteva]

Rockets are doing some solid things man, I dont think they end up with a ring because Bin Harden and mental midget Howard are not about that life. But I give them credit

[djohn2oo8]

Chuck took the bait on Morey's tweet and he bit hard. To be fair, Chuck sure took some uggos to the prom.

[djohn2oo8]

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/osnrlblyzugn3c1ekqsn.jpg

[Raven]

Barkley obviously doesn't get what statistics are for.

[Thebesteva]

Damn son, that last pic in your sig

http://media.giphy.com/media/7l8xJJ5syDiDu/giphy.gif

[Uriel]

Barkley's basketball takes are hit-or-miss, but one thing you can't deny is that you'll always be entertained hearing him talk. :lol

[endrity]

I question the wisdom of a GM going after Barkley. Their job purposes are completely different. Of course statistics are mightly important and we have seen their effect in the NBA. Offenses around the league are drastically different now than back in the Jordan days or early 2000s. And of course Barkley might have no idea how to put that info to good use.

But I am sure as hell TNT doesn't pay him to be able to do that. He's a cool dude, who was a great player and can talk about basketball by also providing a personal touch. That's good enough for TV. I am fairly sure most people wouldn't be able to understand 5-man-lineup statistics and the adjusted plus minuses or other stuff that teams use nowadays.

p.s Barkley is dead wrong on one thing though, which has led him and the other members of the NBA cast to make some awful predictions on the pre-season round table shows that TNT/NBA Tv has done in recent years. This isn't a league just about talent anymore. On talent alone the 2011, 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals are simply a walk for the Heat. In fact they lost two against teams with a grand total of one All-Star, and were extremely lucky to win the other one. As I said, the offensive strategies around the league have changed drastically and ball movement, spacing and shooting are at a premium right now. You'd think at some point these guys should realize that this isn't quite the same league as the one they used to play in. Oh well...

[Killakobe81]

how would the pro-analytic crowd respond to Charles here, tbh?

midnightpulp,
Malik Hairston, ambchang, KillKobe81

Im not a analytics guy. I do see the value in it I think it's dumb not to use all resources available. But I trust my eyes even more. Example I can see Harden is giving more effort and playing a more solid fundamental game on that end. But for him to be a early leader in defensive rating tells me that stat is full of shit. Rox added Ariza and went to Beverly for heavy minutes and when Dwight was healthy he had 3 elite defenders starting with him ...of course his defensive numbers will look better.

I give Morey credit Rox have maintained a top 4 seed with al bunch of injuries and a shaky coach. Right now the 3 biggest advanced nerds are all doing well in the West. Rox, Memphis (hollinger) and cubes. But outside of the Rox I dont see alot of moves that those teams made that others would not make whether they relied on Analytics or not. Losing Parsons but gaining Ariza was a upgrade stats or no stats. Cubes signing Parsons same thing. Grizz have most of the core they had before Chimpy took office. And the stats didnt stop Cubes from blowing up his title team or jacking up his spacing and getting Rondo.

[hater]

analytics

the word says it all. it's for faggots

[djohn2oo8]

I question the wisdom of a GM going after Barkley. Their job purposes are completely different. Of course statistics are mightly important and we have seen their effect in the NBA. Offenses around the league are drastically different now than back in the Jordan days or early 2000s. And of course Barkley might have no idea how to put that info to good use.

But I am sure as hell TNT doesn't pay him to be able to do that. He's a cool dude, who was a great player and can talk about basketball by also providing a personal touch. That's good enough for TV. I am fairly sure most people wouldn't be able to understand 5-man-lineup statistics and the adjusted plus minuses or other stuff that teams use nowadays.

p.s Barkley is dead wrong on one thing though, which has led him and the other members of the NBA cast to make some awful predictions on the pre-season round table shows that TNT/NBA Tv has done in recent years. This isn't a league just about talent anymore. On talent alone the 2011, 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals are simply a walk for the Heat. In fact they lost two against teams with a grand total of one All-Star, and were extremely lucky to win the other one. As I said, the offensive strategies around the league have changed drastically and ball movement, spacing and shooting are at a premium right now. You'd think at some point these guys should realize that this isn't quite the same league as the one they used to play in. Oh well...
Morey as a GM should be focused on getting this team past the first round. On this particular subject, this goes beyond what Charles has to say on tv. Charles is letting his personal history with the Rockets influence his commentary to the point where he's making no sense whatsoever and sounding really unprofessional and the schtick has gotten old. If Les Alexander truly owes him money, then he needs to take it up with him off air. The players have nothing to do with that, neither does the current front office. Barkley got really asshurt by a tweet that he shouldn't have.

[Killakobe81]

"They never got the girls in HS" ...

[JamStone]

Why Charles so mad tho?

[lefty]

analytics

the word says it all. it's for faggots

[djohn2oo8]

Why Charles so mad tho?

I guess he really wants a GM job and is pissed he hasn't gotten one yet.

[UZER]

"They never got the girls in HS" ...

Barkley can dish but can't take.

[Killakobe81]

Barkley can dish but can't take.

I know but that was funny. Such a "bully" comment. I can picture Chuck giving Morey a wedgie and stealing his girl.

Who takes Charles seriously?

[sook]

I question the wisdom of a GM going after Barkley. Their job purposes are completely different. Of course statistics are mightly important and we have seen their effect in the NBA. Offenses around the league are drastically different now than back in the Jordan days or early 2000s. And of course Barkley might have no idea how to put that info to good use.

But I am sure as hell TNT doesn't pay him to be able to do that. He's a cool dude, who was a great player and can talk about basketball by also providing a personal touch. That's good enough for TV. I am fairly sure most people wouldn't be able to understand 5-man-lineup statistics and the adjusted plus minuses or other stuff that teams use nowadays.

p.s Barkley is dead wrong on one thing though, which has led him and the other members of the NBA cast to make some awful predictions on the pre-season round table shows that TNT/NBA Tv has done in recent years. This isn't a league just about talent anymore. On talent alone the 2011, 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals are simply a walk for the Heat. In fact they lost two against teams with a grand total of one All-Star, and were extremely lucky to win the other one. As I said, the offensive strategies around the league have changed drastically and ball movement, spacing and shooting are at a premium right now. You'd think at some point these guys should realize that this isn't quite the same league as the one they used to play in. Oh well...
I was thinking the same thing. His argument against the spurs has always been they don't have enough talent...now he wants to say they win because they have a lot of talent ? :lol

[sook]

Im not a analytics guy. I do see the value in it I think it's dumb not to use all resources available. But I trust my eyes even more. Example I can see Harden is giving more effort and playing a more solid fundamental game on that end. But for him to be a early leader in defensive rating tells me that stat is full of shit. Rox added Ariza and went to Beverly for heavy minutes and when Dwight was healthy he had 3 elite defenders starting with him ...of course his defensive numbers will look better.

I give Morey credit Rox have maintained a top 4 seed with al bunch of injuries and a shaky coach. Right now the 3 biggest advanced nerds are all doing well in the West. Rox, Memphis (hollinger) and cubes. But outside of the Rox I dont see alot of moves that those teams made that others would not make whether they relied on Analytics or not. Losing Parsons but gaining Ariza was a upgrade stats or no stats. Cubes signing Parsons same thing. Grizz have most of the core they had before Chimpy took office. And the stats didnt stop Cubes from blowing up his title team or jacking up his spacing and getting Rondo.

Morey's use of analytics is stupid (ex: Eliminating midrange almost completely), but to say that using analytics is dumb is the dumbest of all. If he thinks the spurs don't use them he's either in serious denial or plain stupid. I do agree with you though, the eye test is usually FAR more telling.

The kind of stats I do hate are the ones cherry picked across the board like, "the only player to ever score 3 consecutive points in less than 2 minutes while grabbing 2 boards , 1 steal and committing 2 turnovers, all while holding his imminent diarrhea in during that entire span of time." That and the PER used as a universal metric for individual greatness is the dumbest shit ever.

[hater]

no matter how much analytics is used in Houston

the eye test tells me the Rockets are 2nd round fodder tops

[Killakobe81]

no matter how much analytics is used in Houston

the eye test tells me the Rockets are 2nd round fodder tops

You might be right but I keep waiting for them to fall down the standings but Harden keeps them in and even Josh Smith is playing well since Dwight been injured.

[ambchang]

how would the pro-analytic crowd respond to Charles here, tbh?

midnightpulp,
Malik Hairston, ambchang, KillKobe81

Nice of you to think about me.

I hate dividing people into two camps (pro vs. anti analytics), and in this case, I actually think both sides have flaws.

I never thought Morey used analytics to get the Rockets better, I mean, does it take analytics to trade for Harden? Sign Dwight? What has he really done to justify the use of analytics?

IMHOThe use of analytics is best used to get value for money, and find the best fit for your team, generally with regards to role players. You identify the building blocks on your team, and then use the necessary analytics to find the complimentary players to fit under the salary cap, while allowing for contingencies and fall back plans, with the necessary cap flexibility to make things work. It's not there to tell you to trade for Harden or sign Dwight, because even an idiot would know that.

Since Morey became GM for the Rockets, the only players of note that the Rockets drafted were:
Jeremy Lamb - because of the trade
Terrence Jones - decent for an 18th pick
Chandler Parsons - lost in FA signing because he wasn't extended
Marcus Morris - not that great for a 14th pick, and played mostly for the Suns.
Mirotic - Never played a second with the Rockets
Patrick Patterson - Love his game, but did most of his work with Toronto
Batum - Never played a second with the Rockets
Brooks - Lost to Phoenix with Morey's obsession with somebody else's PG

As for Charles, I disagree that analytics have no place in the NBA. To go purely on instincts and ignore facts is to look at things blindly, it's not smart decision making, and is not defensible. There are some incredibly smart basketball minds like Jerry West that did that, but really, how many of those guys were there in the history of the league? More likely, you end up with guys like Isiah Thomas or Michael Jordan, or even James Dolan or worse.

Analytics is there to verify, or find those hidden gems. Without analytics and based purely on instincts, teams make million dollar decisions without any backup, which is dangerous and irresponsible. In the age of huge contracts and salary cap, a wrong decision can hinder a franchise for a long time.

On the other hand, I agree that the analytics guys are the geeks who couldn't get the gurls in school.

[Killakobe81]

Morey's use of analytics is stupid (ex: Eliminating midrange almost completely), but to say that using analytics is dumb is the dumbest of all. If he thinks the spurs don't use them he's either in serious denial or plain stupid. I do agree with you though, the eye test is usually FAR more telling.

The kind of stats I do hate are the ones cherry picked across the board like, "the only player to ever score 3 consecutive points in less than 2 minutes while grabbing 2 boards , 1 steal and committing 2 turnovers, all while holding his imminent diarrhea in during that entire span of time." That and the PER used as a universal metric for individual greatness is the dumbest shit ever.
Agreed. Thing that's crazy harden would be even more deadly mid range because he is almost unguardable right now like Jam said. That handle range step back and hesitation game is a'll filthy

[Killakobe81]

Nice of you to think about me.

I hate dividing people into two camps (pro vs. anti analytics), and in this case, I actually think both sides have flaws.

I never thought Morey used analytics to get the Rockets better, I mean, does it take analytics to trade for Harden? Sign Dwight? What has he really done to justify the use of analytics?

IMHOThe use of analytics is best used to get value for money, and find the best fit for your team, generally with regards to role players. You identify the building blocks on your team, and then use the necessary analytics to find the complimentary players to fit under the salary cap, while allowing for contingencies and fall back plans, with the necessary cap flexibility to make things work. It's not there to tell you to trade for Harden or sign Dwight, because even an idiot would know that.

Since Morey became GM for the Rockets, the only players of note that the Rockets drafted were:
Jeremy Lamb - because of the trade
Terrence Jones - decent for an 18th pick
Chandler Parsons - lost in FA signing because he wasn't extended
Marcus Morris - not that great for a 14th pick, and played mostly for the Suns.
Mirotic - Never played a second with the Rockets
Patrick Patterson - Love his game, but did most of his work with Toronto
Batum - Never played a second with the Rockets
Brooks - Lost to Phoenix with Morey's obsession with somebody else's PG

As for Charles, I disagree that analytics have no place in the NBA. To go purely on instincts and ignore facts is to look at things blindly, it's not smart decision making, and is not defensible. There are some incredibly smart basketball minds like Jerry West that did that, but really, how many of those guys were there in the history of the league? More likely, you end up with guys like Isiah Thomas or Michael Jordan, or even James Dolan or worse.

Analytics is there to verify, or find those hidden gems. Without analytics and based purely on instincts, teams make million dollar decisions without any backup, which is dangerous and irresponsible. In the age of huge contracts and salary cap, a wrong decision can hinder a franchise for a long time.

On the other hand, I agree that the analytics guys are the geeks who couldn't get the gurls in school.

Love that closing line and I agree with a lot of what you said ...

[UZER]

I know but that was funny. Such a "bully" comment. I can picture Chuck giving Morey a wedgie and stealing his girl.

Who takes Charles seriously?

I don't think anyone does. He does make good basketball points every now and again.

[sook]

Nice of you to think about me.

I hate dividing people into two camps (pro vs. anti analytics), and in this case, I actually think both sides have flaws.

I never thought Morey used analytics to get the Rockets better, I mean, does it take analytics to trade for Harden? Sign Dwight? What has he really done to justify the use of analytics?

IMHOThe use of analytics is best used to get value for money, and find the best fit for your team, generally with regards to role players. You identify the building blocks on your team, and then use the necessary analytics to find the complimentary players to fit under the salary cap, while allowing for contingencies and fall back plans, with the necessary cap flexibility to make things work. It's not there to tell you to trade for Harden or sign Dwight, because even an idiot would know that.

Since Morey became GM for the Rockets, the only players of note that the Rockets drafted were:
Jeremy Lamb - because of the trade
Terrence Jones - decent for an 18th pick
Chandler Parsons - lost in FA signing because he wasn't extended
Marcus Morris - not that great for a 14th pick, and played mostly for the Suns.
Mirotic - Never played a second with the Rockets
Patrick Patterson - Love his game, but did most of his work with Toronto
Batum - Never played a second with the Rockets
Brooks - Lost to Phoenix with Morey's obsession with somebody else's PG

As for Charles, I disagree that analytics have no place in the NBA. To go purely on instincts and ignore facts is to look at things blindly, it's not smart decision making, and is not defensible. There are some incredibly smart basketball minds like Jerry West that did that, but really, how many of those guys were there in the history of the league? More likely, you end up with guys like Isiah Thomas or Michael Jordan, or even James Dolan or worse.

Analytics is there to verify, or find those hidden gems. Without analytics and based purely on instincts, teams make million dollar decisions without any backup, which is dangerous and irresponsible. In the age of huge contracts and salary cap, a wrong decision can hinder a franchise for a long time.

On the other hand, I agree that the analytics guys are the geeks who couldn't get the gurls in school.

Its not so much the method of selecting players...its the flawed school of thought that ascribes to what is supposed to be the most "efficient" way of running an offense. I mean sure, you could chuck 3s and only take layups (completely eliminating midrange), thinking that is the best way to run an offense...but you grossly oversimplify the game by thinking you can eliminated 80% of the court space which is essentially midrange and allows for versatility. The rockets have taken Less midrange shots than any team in NBA history...and the team with the 2nd least attempts is FAR FAR behind them. Thats the reason we have Kevin Mchale...no other coach would follow an offensive philosophy dictated by the GM. So yes, he probably is the most analytics centered GM. The moves you brought up that contradict analytics are Les moves. He's the fucking moron that thinks you buy big name stars and put them together on a team and win. Dude lucked into buying a championship team and hasn't done crap since.

[ambchang]

Its not so much the method of selecting players...its the flawed school of thought that ascribes to what is supposed to be the most "efficient" way of running an offense. I mean sure, you could chuck 3s and only take layups (completely eliminating midrange), thinking that is the best way to run an offense...but you grossly oversimplify the game by thinking you can eliminated 80% of the court space which is essentially midrange and allows for versatility. The rockets have taken Less midrange shots than any team in NBA history...and the team with the 2nd least attempts is FAR FAR behind them. Thats the reason we have Kevin Mchale...no other coach would follow an offensive philosophy dictated by the GM. So yes, he probably is the most analytics centered GM. The moves you brought up that contradict analytics are Les moves. He's the fucking moron that thinks you buy big name stars and put them together on a team and win. Dude lucked into buying a championship team and hasn't done crap since.

Yeah, I agree with that as well. When the defense knows you will shoot nothing but layups and 3s, it's so much easier to defend.

[Killakobe81]

Great article. On this
(http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/charles-barkley-doesnt-love-analytics-but-analytics-sure-love-him/)
The author opines that Chuck might not like analytics but analytics love him. A couple of nuggets:

1. Chuck leads Duncan in BPM (box plus/minus) for ages 22-36 (years they both played in NBA

2. Leads Duncan in VORP (value over replacement) and winshares/48

3. Chuck does trail Duncan in PER 24.7 -24.6 but is ahead of Malone in most pther stats.

Just find it funny that he hates the movement that makes a case he is better than Tim and Karl.

LOL at analytics guys that would make that case and trust numbers only.
LOL that rings dont matter it's a team accomplishment argument.

RINGS and EYES will always matter. Stats should be used to support or explain not to end arguments.

[ambchang]

Great article. On this
(http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/charles-barkley-doesnt-love-analytics-but-analytics-sure-love-him/)
The author opines that Chuck might not like analytics but analytics love him. A couple of nuggets:

1. Chuck leads Duncan in BPM (box plus/minus) for ages 22-36 (years they both played in NBA

2. Leads Duncan in VORP (value over replacement) and winshares/48

3. Chuck does trail Duncan in PER 24.7 -24.6 but is ahead of Malone in most pther stats.

Just find it funny that he hates the movement that makes a case he is better than Tim and Karl.

LOL at analytics guys that would make that case and trust numbers only.
LOL that rings dont matter it's a team accomplishment argument.

RINGS and EYES will always matter. Stats should be used to support or explain not to end arguments.

I am not a believer of BPM, because it heavily depends on who is backing you up. It rewards players with horrible backups (think Barkley through most of his career), and conversely penalizes players with great backups (like Mark Price with Kevin Johnson).. VORP supposedly fixed this problem, but I don't understand the math and logic to comment on it.

As for WS/48. I normally sees it as the best way to look at a player's contribution to a team. that said, it depends on the system a player plays on (think Billups with Pistons), and to an extent penalizes great players with good teammates.

Barkley was an absolutely phenomenal player back in his day. He was in the same league as Jordan and Magic in his prime, the only difference is that he had horrible teams, and he is more difficult to build around because he is extremely ball dominant and can have a lot of defensive deficiencies.

To me, he is in the KG, Dirk, McHale level of players.

[DMC]

Believing in analytics is like believing in evolution, neither are proven.

[DMC]

Chuck and any other superstar ever in the league made their living off of stats. It was ok as long as they were getting paid for it. Players aren't getting paid for analytics though, and it's being used to determine matchups, tendencies and will eventually reshape the entire game of basketball (and all other sports). The more data they collect, the more accurate their analysis.

[DMC]

I am not a believer of BPM, because it heavily depends on who is backing you up. It rewards players with horrible backups (think Barkley through most of his career), and conversely penalizes players with great backups (like Mark Price with Kevin Johnson).. VORP supposedly fixed this problem, but I don't understand the math and logic to comment on it.

As for WS/48. I normally sees it as the best way to look at a player's contribution to a team. that said, it depends on the system a player plays on (think Billups with Pistons), and to an extent penalizes great players with good teammates.

Barkley was an absolutely phenomenal player back in his day. He was in the same league as Jordan and Magic in his prime, the only difference is that he had horrible teams, and he is more difficult to build around because he is extremely ball dominant and can have a lot of defensive deficiencies.

To me, he is in the KG, Dirk, McHale level of players.
Once again you make contradicting statements.

1. Barkley was in the same league as Jordan and Magic. Obviously everyone in the NBA was in the same league, so you meant he was the same caliber player as those two.
2. He is in the KG, Dirk, McHale level of players.

You cannot have it both ways.

[Killakobe81]

I am not a believer of BPM, because it heavily depends on who is backing you up. It rewards players with horrible backups (think Barkley through most of his career), and conversely penalizes players with great backups (like Mark Price with Kevin Johnson).. VORP supposedly fixed this problem, but I don't understand the math and logic to comment on it.

As for WS/48. I normally sees it as the best way to look at a player's contribution to a team. that said, it depends on the system a player plays on (think Billups with Pistons), and to an extent penalizes great players with good teammates.

Barkley was an absolutely phenomenal player back in his day. He was in the same league as Jordan and Magic in his prime, the only difference is that he had horrible teams, and he is more difficult to build around because he is extremely ball dominant and can have a lot of defensive deficiencies.

To me, he is in the KG, Dirk, McHale level of players.

I think you have a better grasp on these stats than I do. But it's why I dont trust these fully tbh. Barkley was an amazing athlete and player. the things he did at his size are incredible a 6 foot 6 guy rebounding and scoring the way he did. And his vertical off two feet was amazing. But the rings are a big part of why Duncan is clearly considered better. Sure duncan is the greater two way player but Chuck was probably a greater scorer and was also a good passer when he put his mind to it. But 5-0 rings speaks louder to me than any of that and although many here hate PER (even I dont like it) it's one of the advanced metrics that matches what my eyes and the rings say that Duncan is greater than Chuck.

I just find the article interesting.

And although you do a great job Amb of explaining the problem with some of those metrics. A nerd could argue Duncan had better team-mates (like you said), a HOF coach no MJ etc. Point being stats can always be "juked". That is why you cant fully use them to end a debate because someone can always dig to find one that supports theirs. Even in this article they only focused on 22-36 when despite people on here saying 5 shouldnt have changed things. The last 2 seasons added more of gap between duncan and Karl and Chuck and Shaq/kobe for that matter.

[ambchang]

Once again you make contradicting statements.

1. Barkley was in the same league as Jordan and Magic. Obviously everyone in the NBA was in the same league, so you meant he was the same caliber player as those two.
2. He is in the KG, Dirk, McHale level of players.

You cannot have it both ways.

I apologize your highness. I bow before you for forgiveness as I was unclear in using the term "in the same league". You,the almighty, provided great insights in clarify my statements that no other on this board can see.

However, I humbly ask how you cannot understand how Barkley's prime being equal to Magic and Jordan off prime, and Barkley having a shorter prime than either two would not allow him to be at the same level as KG, Dirk and McHale. Please bestow me of your knowledge and your infinite wisdom.

It's like saying Shaq in his prime is as good as Bird or Jordan during their primes, but Bird and Jordan > Shaq career wise.

[sook]

Believing in analytics is like believing in evolution, neither are proven.

wtf :lol

Ever heard antibiotic resistance?

[DMC]

wtf :lol

Ever heard antibiotic resistance?
Ever heard of satire? I am an expert geneticist, Mr Bond.

[sook]

Ever heard of satire? I am an expert geneticist, Mr Bond.

I knew satire. You sir, are no satire.

[DMC]

I knew satire. You sir, are no satire.

They counted on Barkley being passive... they counted wrong.