What would a 6th legit Championship do for Duncans legacy?

[Fabbs]

Already by far the best player of his era, where would a 6th put Duncan in relation to the all time legit greats?

You'd get a ton of Duncan vs Jordan media comparisons.
It would put more distance between he and Shaq as far as career.
Dirk and Gasol had a nice run but only for a few years, Finals wise.

Also would further Ginobilis distance over Kirby Bryant as best sidekick of era. Also put GNob in the discussion with Pippen as best sidekick all time.
Altho his choke of 6 and earlier foul on Dork in 2006 are major subtractors.

It's gonna be tough, but if the Spurs can get healthy and their coach can return to 90% of how he coached last year.......6th is possible. :toast

[LkrFan]

'99** was not legit.

**denotes 50-game season.

[JamStone]

Duncan would not get the Jordan comparison because of how Jordan dominated during his 6 championships run. It was not only a statistically dominating 6 runs, but they were back-to-back-to-back two times. The last two Spurs titles found the Finals MVP with a Duncan teammate. And in the midst of Pop turning over the focus of the Spurs offense to the perimeter guys and three point shooting, while Duncan has still been vitally important to the team's success, there is at least the perception that Duncan was more of a secondary player on offense. A 6th title would require not only Duncan winning the Finals MVP but also return to the 23+ ppg scorer he was earlier on in his career, which is unlikely considering how the current Spurs offense is built. And even then, I don't think he gets a Jordan comparison. He's already in the conversation as one of the greatest winners in NBA history. But when you also factor individual dominance to go along with those championships, I don't think Duncan can get involved with Jordan.

Right or wrong, Parker and Kawhi taking home those FMVPs have limited the opportunity for Duncan to get involved in such a Jordan comparison.

I think Duncan and Shaq are close personally, with Duncan obviously having more consistent and sustained success and Shaq with more dominating title runs (and more dominating career in their early years and prime years). Both have 3 FMVPs. A 6th overall title probably does help Duncan edge Shaq.

[Mugen]

Duncan was never gonna approach Jordan. Not since it was clear that he had no interest in propping himself up nor building his own brand.

He's already had the best career post-MJ and is the best player of his generation. Another ring and a Finals MVP cements him as a Top 5 player of all time, not many would be able to argue that tbh.

[Infinite_limit]

- Tim would need 8 Titles to approach Jordan

- There are still a-lot of NBA fans and mainstream media who put Kobe on even level if not above Duncan

- A 7th Title would solidify Duncan above Kobe and like OP said, leave Shaq in the dust

- Agreed, Top 5

[Clipper Nation]

Tim would need 8 Titles to approach Jordan

A 7th Title would solidify Duncan above Kobe
These are Frizzle/GreatFaggot/Avante-caliber takes :lol

The only reason Duncan with six rings wouldn't be in the mainstream conversation with DK is because Duncan isn't a media/marketing whore like DK was. Duncan already surpassed Kirby on April 25, 1976.

[djohn2oo8]

These are Frizzle/GreatFaggot/Avante-caliber takes :lol

The only reason Duncan with six rings wouldn't be in the mainstream conversation with DK is because Duncan isn't a media/marketing whore like DK was. Duncan already surpassed Kirby on April 25, 1976.
No. Duncan has had multiple Finals series where he didn't exactly dominate.

[Clipper Nation]

No. Duncan has had multiple Finals series where he didn't exactly dominate.
Let's see: ringing in three different decades, ringing in the era of ball movement and actual defensive schemes, dragging a lottery team to a ring by himself in '03... seems pretty dominant to me. And Duncan never got to take a couple years off in his prime after getting caught betting on games, either.

[Infinite_limit]

Let's see: ringing in three different decades, ringing in the era of ball movement and actual defensive schemes, dragging a lottery team to a ring by himself in '03... seems pretty dominant to me. And Duncan never got to take a couple years off in his prime after getting caught betting on games, either.
Which is why he is Top 5. Kobe and Shaq did 3-peat, Duncan hasn't even Repeated.

This ERA of basketball sucks. Which bigs did he battle? Shaq, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol and Webber? Major step down from the guys Hakeem was battling in the 80s-90s

[djohn2oo8]

Let's see: ringing in three different decades, ringing in the era of ball movement and actual defensive schemes, dragging a lottery team to a ring by himself in '03... seems pretty dominant to me. And Duncan never got to take a couple years off in his prime after getting caught betting on games, either.

05 Finals, shot 41% against Detroit.

07 Finals, shot 44% against Varejo and Big Z

14 Finals, Kawhi was the best player

Again, multiple finals.

[Malik Hairston]

Duncan has already been the best player on championship teams in 3 different eras of basketball..

-The shitty, hideous, snail-paced ball of the 90s
- The transitioning basketball of the mid/late 2000s
- The super-advanced, team-oriented, analytic ball of 2014 that changed the way basketball is played

No other player can say that, tbh..rankings from mainstream fans and mainstream media is irrelevant, of course..

A 6th championship wouldn't change much..once you reach a certain number of rings, it's all largely similar and grouped together..

[baseline bum]

Which is why he is Top 5. Kobe and Shaq did 3-peat, Duncan hasn't even Repeated.

This ERA of basketball sucks. Which bigs did he battle? Shaq, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol and Webber? Major step down from the guys Hakeem was battling in the 80s-90s

Shaq and Dirk are worse than Robinson and Ewing?

[Fabbs]

Which is why he is Top 5. Kobe and Shaq did 3-peat, Duncan hasn't even Repeated.
Duncans tolerance of BadPops moron strategies (2006 and 2008) have indeed cost him repeat chances twice.

No intelligents recognize the 2002 Kings being scammed so throw that 3 peat out.

[Malik Hairston]

Things like "undefeated in the Finals" and "repeats" are so vanilla and cliche, tbh:lol..sports fans are such imbeciles..

:lol antiquated mentality
:lol antiquated methods of measuring impact

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

'99** was not legit.

**denotes 50-game season.

:lmao

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[Infinite_limit]

Shaq and Dirk are worse than Robinson and Ewing?
Barkley, McHale, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Kareem, Mourning, Mutombo,

Pau Gasol is essentially Rik Smiths with better knees

[Malik Hairston]

:lol Jordan couldn't even lead his team to the playoffs in one of the worst eras of East basketball in league history, tbh(2002 and 2003):lmao..

[Infinite_limit]

:lol Jordan couldn't even lead his team to the playoffs in one of the worst eras of East basketball in league history, tbh(2002 and 2003):lmao..
No player would have. Bad roster

[DMC]

It would do nothing. There's only one level of 1st ballot HOFer. Everything else is just fan shit talk points. I'll take 6 or 7 or however many, but if Tim isn't the main force behind them, it's pointless from a legacy standpoint. Of course more is always better. Tim was set after 3.

[Thread]

It would blunt 6 about as much as 1 can blunt something forever gone.

Because he was reckless, then careless and finally negligent he gave an NBA Title back that was in the fucking case. If I didn't hate him and a goodly portion of his fandom I'd feel bad for him.

I never had one in there and had to give it back. It's the fuckin' shits, man.

[hater]

"this team went as far as MVParker took em" tbqh

[DMC]

- Tim would need 8 Titles to approach Jordan

- There are still a-lot of NBA fans and mainstream media who put Kobe on even level if not above Duncan

- A 7th Title would solidify Duncan above Kobe and like OP said, leave Shaq in the dust

- Agreed, Top 5
Shitty takes as expected.

Argument from popularity (more people like Kobe than Tim)
Argument from ambiguity (8 titles would somehow make a PF compare to Jordan, despite how they played)
Begging the question (7th title putting Duncan above Kobe assumes he's not already, a point that you seem chickenshit to make and that almost every NBA pundit would disagree with)

Shit troll offers shit

[Thread]

"this team went as far as MVParker took em" tbqh

You've stepped into a chasm of such mediocrity & AWOL that it is near inconceivable. I've likened it to the film "The Great Escape" where the night of the escape comes, but, they've (Spurs) come up short of the woods by about 25 yards. Luckily the Allies are bombing in the area and there is a total blackout. It is at this juncture where the prisoners have their opportunity, Spurs too. Get as many men/rings as you can muster before the lights (mediocrity & AWOL) switch back on.

[Infinite_limit]

Shitty takes as expected.

Argument from popularity (more people like Kobe than Tim)
Argument from ambiguity (8 titles would somehow make a PF compare to Jordan, despite how they played)
Begging the question (7th title putting Duncan above Kobe assumes he's not already, a point that you seem chickenshit to make and that almost every NBA pundit would disagree with)

Shit troll offers shit
Link to "every pundit" agreeing on anything. I'll patiently wait

[DMC]

It would blunt 6 about as much as 1 can blunt something forever gone.

Because he was reckless, then careless and finally negligent he gave an NBA Title back that was in the fucking case. If I didn't hate him and a goodly portion of his fandom I'd feel bad for him.

I never had one in there and had to give it back. It's the fuckin' shits, man.

Yet here you stand, naked and shivering in the cold wake of your team's demise, on the Spurs website contemplating a Cavs jersey.

[DMC]

Link to "every pundit" agreeing on anything. I'll patiently wait
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqQS_YFIcAAFoUJ.jpg:large

[Thread]

Yet here you stand, naked and shivering in the cold wake of your team's demise, on the Spurs website contemplating a Cavs jersey.

You stupid ass, you. You & CN both. You have the vision of Helen Keller.

[Infinite_limit]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqQS_YFIcAAFoUJ.jpg:large
MVP & Finals MVP's are as you call them "popularity"



Kobe: 5 titles + 2 Finals MVPs + 1 MVP + 4 All Star game MVP's = 12 Trophies
Duncan: 5 titles + 3 Finals MVPs + 2 MVPs + 1 All Star game MVP = 11 Trophies


Ooops

[Kool Bob Love]

Gawd would be top 3 dead or alive. The day is coming. 4 more months. :tu

[unleashbaynes]

:lmao all star game MVP

[Koolaid_Man]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqQS_YFIcAAFoUJ.jpg:large

You should probably add in a pic of a big mexican dick at the end of Tammies awards.

[cd021]

No. Duncan has had multiple Finals series where he didn't exactly dominate.

He was still the best or second best player for the Spurs, its not like he was ring chasing.

[LkrFan]

You should probably add in a pic of a big mexican dick at the end of Tammies awards.

tee hee :lmao

[DMC]

You stupid ass, you. You & CN both. You have the vision of Helen Keller.

I called you a Cavs fan and you denied it, then recanted and said you'd support them. You're a real piece of shit.

[DMC]

MVP & Finals MVP's are as you call them "popularity"

No they aren't. Leonard isn't popular, didn't even make the ASG, fuckwad.


Kobe: 5 titles + 2 Finals MVPs + 1 MVP + 4 All Star game MVP's = 12 Trophies
Duncan: 5 titles + 3 Finals MVPs + 2 MVPs + 1 All Star game MVP = 11 Trophies

LOL no

And you forgot Rookie of the Year

Idiot

[ezau]

'99** was not legit.

**denotes 50-game season.

Lebron's 2012 championship shouldn't count as well.

[Cry Havoc]

MVP & Finals MVP's are as you call them "popularity"



Kobe: 5 titles + 2 Finals MVPs + 1 MVP + 4 All Star game MVP's = 12 Trophies
Duncan: 5 titles + 3 Finals MVPs + 2 MVPs + 1 All Star game MVP = 11 Trophies


Ooops

Did you just try to make the argument that Duncan won the MVP because of "popularity"?

The Spurs that never got any mainstream recognition, never got any hype, were never even mentioned until the playoffs rolled around -- suddenly they're the spotlight of the NBA because it retrospectively serves your narrative? That is fucking hilarious.

This is the same forum that had countless threads bitching and moaning about Spurs ratings in the Finals because no one cared about them except hardcore basketball fans and the fans of the two teams in the finals. :lol

[ezau]

Duncan is already Top 5 all-time and if he wins number 6, people are going to inevitably compare him to Jordan. However, Dad Killer would still be a little ahead of him in terms of overall career.

[Cry Havoc]

Duncan is already Top 5 all-time and if he wins number 6, people are going to inevitably compare him to Jordan. However, Dad Killer would still be a little ahead of him in terms of overall career.

I don't even think it merits a comparison, honestly.

Although I DO think that every single title run, Duncan has been the best player on the team. He was clearly the best on 99/03/05 with absolutely no argument, and the 03 playoff run should stand on the pantheon of great playoff performances. His play was absolutely insane that entire playoffs, especially in the Finals. People talking shit about him shooting 41% against the Pistons when he was being doubled by the Wallaces who were one of the greatest frontcourt defensive combos in history, and Duncan still curbstomped them in the deciding game. His bum ankle that series was his good leg.

In 07, Duncan was better throughout the playoffs and then Parker had a monster Finals.

In 14, Duncan again was the most consistent Spur from series to series, Kawhi just woke up in the last 3 games and stole the show. But the playoff MVP for 2014 should still go to Duncan.

That said, he's got a ways to go before ascending to Jordan level. If he is the best Spurs player again this post-season and the Spurs get 6, you could easily make the argument that Duncan is a top 3 player in history, though, behind Michael and Kareem.

[hitmantb]

The definitive ranking is championships + MVP + FMVP like the previous poster posted. (AMVP = LOL)

Duncan is top 5 and only behind Jordan, Kareem, Magic, and Russell (weakest era and most stacked team ever versus the competition, but you have to put him on there to be respectful to senior citizens) in my book, top 10 on all other rankings.

He has by far the smallest market, team budget and supporting cast of anyone on top 10 all time to be honest, can you imagine if he had Kobe or Pippen when he was in his prime? His 2003 run was the single greatest individual playoff performance ever, that Spurs team without him would be the weakest -1 player championship team ever. Unfortunately he burned himself out after that year and was never quite the same.

LeBron will most likely knock Duncan out of top 5 however, because he controls his own destiny and builds his own super teams. Before anyone say head-to-head, Duncan has a losing record against Kobe too and we all know Duncan is ahead.

[VBM]

I never had one in there and had to give it back. It's the fuckin' shits, man.

It was in the case when Pierce sat in that wheelchair...

...then he stood up, and Beantown stayed +2

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/643479_o.gif

[whitemamba]

It would do jack shit, Jims as relevant as Kobe is.

[Cry Havoc]

It would do jack shit, Jims as relevant as Kobe is.

Duncan could don the purple and gold TODAY and be the best player on the floor for the Lakeshow, healthy Kobe or not. :lol

[whitemamba]

Duncan could don the purple and gold TODAY and be the best player on the floor for the Lakeshow, healthy Kobe or not. :lol

well they are 13-40, so yeah jim could be the best player, your damn smart.

[DMC]

well they are 13-40, so yeah jim could be the best player, your damn smart.
"you're"

[whitemamba]

"you're"

Bravo

[Cry Havoc]

well they are 13-40, so yeah jim could be the best player, your damn smart.

Weird, I guess the best player on the defending champions seems relevant to me. But then again, what do I know? I know the Lakers would pay a lot to have a post player who could average 16 and 9 in 32 minutes in the post-season. :hat

[Thread]

I called you a Cavs fan and you denied it, then recanted and said you'd support them. You're a real piece of shit.

You asshole you.

[Thread]

It was in the case when Pierce sat in that wheelchair...

...then he stood up, and Beantown stayed +2

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/643479_o.gif

But, it wasn't in there, dummy. Yours was. It was over. Over over. Then the shadow of Amy appeared & Tim flubbed his fuckin' dub.

[DMC]

But, it wasn't in there, dummy. Yours was. It was over. Over over. Then the shadow of Amy appeared & Tim flubbed his fuckin' dub.
And rang.. ding dong

[VBM]

But, it wasn't in there, dummy. Yours was. It was over. Over over. Then the shadow of Amy appeared & Tim flubbed his fuckin' dub.

But it was. At the moment the Lakers saw this image, Kobe knew he would finally step out of Shaq's shadow. LA would be one step closer to catching Boston in the ring count.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0419/la_worstmoments10_800.jpg


He hoodwinked you. You dropped your guard. You allowed yourself to light the cigar to spite the memory of Red. And for that, he made you pay. Kobe had to wait a year to see 4. Meanwhile, you allowed this to happen.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3716789/anything-is-possible-o.gif

Damn you.

[KL2]

How many DPOY trophies has Duncan been robbed of?

[apalisoc_9]

How many DPOY trophies has Duncan been robbed of?

1 for sure...

arguably 2

[Killakobe81]

Nothing. Team accomplishments mean little for individual legacy, if you listen to rank and file ... plus he would not be the "alpha" ...for the
last two...
Do you know how ridiculous that shit sounds? But this is spurstalk ...

[Pelicans78]

These are Frizzle/GreatFaggot/Avante-caliber takes :lol

The only reason Duncan with six rings wouldn't be in the mainstream conversation with DK is because Duncan isn't a media/marketing whore like DK was. Duncan already surpassed Kirby on April 25, 1976.

Duncan statistically wasn't quite as good as Jordan looking at the advanced stuff. But Duncan is arguably top 5.

[100%duncan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqQS_YFIcAAFoUJ.jpg:large

[100%duncan]

Duncan was the best player of last year's whole playoffs run :lol

He led the team in advanced stats, mpg, ppg and rpg before the finals started.

"Not being the alpha" :lol

[100%duncan]

oops double post

[Clipper Nation]

Duncan was the best player of last year's whole playoffs run :lol

He led the team in advanced stats, mpg, ppg and rpg before the finals started.

"Not being the alpha" :lol
Another reason why Duncan with 6 rings > DK. Dude won an alpha ring at damn near 40 years old in today's stacked era :wow

Meanwhile, Kirby couldn't even win an alpha ring in his prime, in the iso-thugball era, with stacked teams around him :lol

[100%duncan]

Another reason why Duncan with 6 rings > DK. Dude won an alpha ring at damn near 40 years old in today's stacked era :wow

Meanwhile, Kirby couldn't even win an alpha ring in his prime, in the iso-thugball era, with stacked teams around him :lol

I wouldnt go that far. Winning a 3-peat twice while clearly being the best player on the planet is just surreal and on another level. But I don't really give a shit tbh, Tim's already a cemented top 5. And if he leads the Spurs, statistically and obviously mentally, to a 6th then that would surely propel him to top 3 imho.


Discussion's not too relevant now especially with how the Spurs has looked so far but I can't accept someone saying that Tim wasn't the alpha for 5 when he was the best player for the entire run, based on stats and not on bullshit.

[Killakobe81]

Duncan would not get the Jordan comparison because of how Jordan dominated during his 6 championships run. It was not only a statistically dominating 6 runs, but they were back-to-back-to-back two times. The last two Spurs titles found the Finals MVP with a Duncan teammate. And in the midst of Pop turning over the focus of the Spurs offense to the perimeter guys and three point shooting, while Duncan has still been vitally important to the team's success, there is at least the perception that Duncan was more of a secondary player on offense. A 6th title would require not only Duncan winning the Finals MVP but also return to the 23+ ppg scorer he was earlier on in his career, which is unlikely considering how the current Spurs offense is built. And even then, I don't think he gets a Jordan comparison. He's already in the conversation as one of the greatest winners in NBA history. But when you also factor individual dominance to go along with those championships, I don't think Duncan can get involved with Jordan.

Right or wrong, Parker and Kawhi taking home those FMVPs have limited the opportunity for Duncan to get involved in such a Jordan comparison.

I think Duncan and Shaq are close personally, with Duncan obviously having more consistent and sustained success and Shaq with more dominating title runs (and more dominating career in their early years and prime years). Both have 3 FMVPs. A 6th overall title probably does help Duncan edge Shaq.

I usually agree with most of your posts but I dont get how Duncan is not ahead of shaq already. I know rings are probably weighted a bit higher by me than most, but I think based on career I would give Tim the edge. At his peak and most dominating this is not even a question it was and is Shaq. But adding the rings consistency and higher level of defensive play even at Shaq's peak plus Tim's versatility I think Tim has the edge is it a HUGE gap? No. But a edge imho.

Funny thing though Jam, a small group of Spur fans agree with you. SO maybe I am wrong here but for me it's Duncan career wise. Peak wise you could argue HAkeem and Shaq over him though but we already have a thread on that, LOL

[Brazil]

Duncan is even under estimated by his own fan base tbh..

Dude is a legend. He leads his team to 6 finals in three decades, has 5 rings and was 28 sec away to 6. He carried a small market team on his back, never played with an all time great (except past prime Robinson) like Shaq, Kobe, Pippen etc... led his team to the best winning % in history etc etc etc and Spurs fans should feel bad to compare him with MJ ? gimme a break

[100%duncan]

Duncan is even under estimated by his own fan base tbh..

Dude is a legend. He leads his team to 6 finals in three decades, has 5 rings and was 28 sec away to 6. He carried a small market team on his back, never played with an all time great (except past prime Robinson) like Shaq, Kobe, Pippen etc... led his team to the best winning % in history etc etc etc and Spurs fans should feel bad to compare him with MJ ? gimme a break

I dont feel bad tbh but I don't think he's greater than MJ.

[endrity]

It would not put him above Jordan, or in the conversation.

But with guys like Kareem or Magic, who by and large are still ranked ahead of Duncan, it would be a legit debate. Potentially you could argue that Duncan had the 2nd greatest career ever. That's the way I like to say it, because who was a "better player" is very subjective to me. At the end of the day you measure careers and contributions to your team. And a 6th ring could elevate Duncan up to 2nd I think. Russell to me is always the enigma, because as great as he was, those Celtics teams were absolutely stacked. I have a hard time believing the narrative that he was a winner whereas Wilt was a loser. Russell certainly seems to have been a guy who competed and gave 100% to the cause, but he was helped by playing with far and away the best cast possible.

To me it would also create a great debate on Duncan v. LeBron regarding the best post-MJ player. For me Duncan was always the best player of his generation, late 90s-early 2000s, player. But LeBron was headed for arguably a greater career after his 2013 title. With a 5th ring and his great longevity, and LeBron seemingly going down a gear now in his 30s, Duncan v. LeBron I think will be interesting.

As for the rest, I think Shaq is clearly behind those two now, if he can be considered in the post-MJ era. Also, I will honestly not be convinced that Kobe is somehow much higher than Dirk or KG. The advanced metrics revolution will not be kind to his legacy at all. I think more and more people will see Kobe as someone that greatly benefited from very stacked teams, which he clearly had, but on the other side played a very innefficient hero-ball to the detriment of his team. He is definetely as step below Duncan, Shaq and LeBron to me. And you could make a case that both Dirk or KG can be considered the 4th. I'd obviously support Dirk, but the Dirk v. KG debate has been done to death here so I am not going to go there again.

[endrity]

I usually agree with most of your posts but I dont get how Duncan is not ahead of shaq already. I know rings are probably weighted a bit higher by me than most, but I think based on career I would give Tim the edge. At his peak and most dominating this is not even a question it was and is Shaq. But adding the rings consistency and higher level of defensive play even at Shaq's peak plus Tim's versatility I think Tim has the edge is it a HUGE gap? No. But a edge imho.

Funny thing though Jam, a small group of Spur fans agree with you. SO maybe I am wrong here but for me it's Duncan career wise. Peak wise you could argue HAkeem and Shaq over him though but we already have a thread on that, LOL

True most likely. But the question I would ask is "given what I know, if I had a chance to select them in a draft, who would I go for?". And the answer is Duncan, because someone who gives me 5 extra years of elite production is much more valuable. It gives me the chance to go ahead and rebuild another cast around him, with a 21 year old Kawhi, that gives me an extra ring. The fact that Shaq was marginally better at his peak (though 2002-2004 Duncan was truly a monster as well) still gives me one ring per season, not more, just like with Duncan. The fact that he was brilliant in those 3 seasons, can't give me more than 3 rings.

[RsxPiimp]

I don't think you make a case for Duncan vs Jordan. Jordan just trumps Tim in major categories, be it team success or advance statistics. Duncan vs Magic or Kareem would be a great conversation though.

[Brazil]

I dont feel bad tbh but I don't think he's greater than MJ.

I don't feel either, I don't think he's greater too but nothing to be ashamed of discussing.

You can definitely discuss 6 or not with the likes of Magic, Kareem etc... tbh

as of today I think the only big you can argue is better is Kareem imho fwiw

Duncan is gonna retire it will give one week of headlines and that's all while what he has done is simply amazing

[xellos88330]

I don't think a 6th ring will affect his legacy much. If his legacy were to change noticeably, he would need to get the FMVP when he gets his 6th. Doing so will really bring to light the sustained excellence that is Tim Duncan.

[unleashbaynes]

he got one for the thumb now it's time to get one for the cock!!!

[Thread]

...for the 2nd time.

[Killakobe81]

True most likely. But the question I would ask is "given what I know, if I had a chance to select them in a draft, who would I go for?". And the answer is Duncan, because someone who gives me 5 extra years of elite production is much more valuable. It gives me the chance to go ahead and rebuild another cast around him, with a 21 year old Kawhi, that gives me an extra ring. The fact that Shaq was marginally better at his peak (though 2002-2004 Duncan was truly a monster as well) still gives me one ring per season, not more, just like with Duncan. The fact that he was brilliant in those 3 seasons, can't give me more than 3 rings.

I agree. with this. As the above Dirk was great KG too but Kobe is above those guys. I get the metric dudes will argue whatever they wanna argue, but outside of analytic nerds who goes back and cares retroactively what Jordan's metrics are? Besides really hard core fans with a leaning that way? Harlem, CN and others have said the same in 10 years etc. perceptions will change on Kobe but in reality I doubt it. First those that care now probably wont care as much. And I have yet to hear anyone debating win shares, DPRM at any barbershop here in DFW or Cali, at pickup games or even on the Select teams I am around when I coach when debating Kobe/Lebron, Lebron/Jordan, Duncan/Shaq. Of course the best coaches and informed people are aware of those numbers (some of them) but in the end no one uses those to argue Jordan over Lebron or any other debate. Kobe is polarizing. those that support him wont change and those that hate him wont either. some will overrate him greatly others will underrate him just as much.

And I mention the barbershop because outside of here and Real deal sportstalk (FB) that is the only place outside of inbetween pickup games at 24 hour fitness that i get to have passionate debates on hoops. Years from now if I am still able to play Im am 99% sure we wont be arguing win share per 48

[Brazil]

I don't think a 6th ring will affect his legacy much. If his legacy were to change noticeably, he would need to get the FMVP when he gets his 6th. Doing so will really bring to light the sustained excellence that is Tim Duncan.

I don't know why people actually care about FMVP when talking about career and achievements. Duncan was the best player of the 5 rings, the fact on a given serie Parker, Kawhi flourished is not relevant imo.

For the rest I agree 5 or 6 won't change dramatically things

[SpursFan86]

It would do nothing. There's only one level of 1st ballot HOFer. Everything else is just fan shit talk points. I'll take 6 or 7 or however many, but if Tim isn't the main force behind them, it's pointless from a legacy standpoint. Of course more is always better. Tim was set after 3.

Disagree. You don't hear about how Kareem was a shell of his former self in '87/88. You just hear that he has 6 rings.

Obviously winning a title when you're the 2nd or 3rd option means less, but it still adds to a player's legacy. It's not like Duncan is some benchwarmer at this point. In last year's playoffs, he led the team in minutes, rebounds, and was 2nd in points. He still had a big role on the team.

[Killakobe81]

Disagree. You don't hear about how Kareem was a shell of his former self in '87/88. You just hear that he has 6 rings.

Obviously winning a title when you're the 2nd or 3rd option means less, but it still adds to a player's legacy. It's not like Duncan is some benchwarmer at this point. In last year's playoffs, he led the team in minutes, rebounds, and was 2nd in points. He still had a big role on the team.

this. and I dont get why Spur fan of all people are devaluing rings when that is one of Tim's gretest legacy arguments. Sure he is no longer alpha but '86 is right no one cares that Kareem was carried by Magic later he still was a key part of all of them, same as Tim.

[Brazil]

I agree. with this. As the above Dirk was great KG too but Kobe is above those guys. I get the metric dudes will argue whatever they wanna argue, but outside of analytic nerds who goes back and cares retroactively what Jordan's metrics are? Besides really hard core fans with a leaning that way? Harlem, CN and others have said the same in 10 years etc. perceptions will change on Kobe but in reality I doubt it. First those that care now probably wont care as much. And I have yet to hear anyone debating win shares, DPRM at any barbershop here in DFW or Cali, at pickup games or even on the Select teams I am around when I coach when denating Kobe/Lebron, Lebron/Jordan, Duncan/Shaq. Of course the best coaches and informed people are aware of those numbers (some of them) but in the end no one uses those to argue Jordan over Lebron or any other debate. Kobe is polarizing. those that support him wont change and those that hate him wont either. some will overrate him greatly others will underrate him just as much.

And I mention the barbershop because outside of here and Real deal sportstalk (FB) that is the only place outside of inbetween pickup games at 24 hour fitness that i get to have passionate debates on hoops. Years from now if I am still able to play Im am 99% sure we wont be arguing win share per 48

Except Jordan's advanced metrics are quite fine tbh :lol

On the rest who cares about the barber perception of Kobe vs. MJ ?

[Killakobe81]

And even if YOU (DMC) feel he was set after #3 Spur fan wont be the only one debating/arguing his legacy. Like it or not media and general NBA fans as well as players of his era that will all tell that tale along with his awards, metrics and accomplishments nothing will speak louder than 6. Outside of spurstalk, where we have to qualify rings with trivial bullshit.

[Brazil]

this. and I dont get why Spur fan of all people are devaluing rings when that is one of Tim's gretest legacy arguments. Sure he is no longer alpha but '86 is right no one cares that Kareem was carried by Magic later he still was a key part of all of them, same as Tim.

Especially because there is no question he was the mvp of the 5. On the last one, it is more a team stuff than an individual performance ala Detroit but he was still the most consistent spur of this run.

[Killakobe81]

Except Jordan's advanced metrics are quite fine tbh :lol

On the rest who cares about the barber perception of Kobe vs. MJ ?

I wasnt saying I argued Kobe/MJ I said when debated. That would be foolish. My point was that no one does that EVEN though he has good advanced metrics. People usually start with 6 titles and 3 back to backs that is my point. Duncan getting 6 is where I would start as well.

I didnt say barbershops should matter to anyone and really it's a urban culture thing. Barbershops traditionally have lots of great sports debates ... that is why the parody of that in Coming to America was so hilarious to me. All barbershops I have been to in NY La and even DFW and SA are like that. I have heard politics, Nas vs. Jay Jordan vs Lebron debated with more passion than Amb vs Wekko(?) in the Hakeem vs. duncan thread tbh.

[Brazil]

I wasnt saying I argued Kobe/MJ I said when debated. That would be foolish. My point was that no one does that EVEN though he has good advanced metrics. People usually start with 6 titles and 3 back to backs that is my point. Duncan getting 6 is where I would start as well.

I didnt say barbershops should matter to anyone and really it's a urban culture thing. Barbershops traditionally have lots of great sports debates ... that is why the parody of that in Coming to America was so hilarious to me. All barbershops I have been to in NY La and even DFW and SA are like that. I have heard politics, Nas vs. Jay Jordan vs Lebron debated with more passion than Amb vs Wekko(?) in the Hakeem vs. duncan thread tbh.

I am not very familiar of the american barber shop culture so I trust you on this one... :lol in France you find these experts in the "cafe du coin".

Thing is there are so many parameters when discussing greatests, why don't use the most advanced ones as part of the argumentation. ST community is pretty much well educated in terms of bb to see the big picture behind the rings count, average dude and new age mainstream fans (who say the 80's suck because the chicken players eat today is better or spend their time glorifying individuals vs. team) opinion don't matter tbh

[SpursFan86]

Yeah you could easily argue that Tim was the most consistently important player to last year's title run. Obviously Kawhi took over in the Finals (also had a great series against Portland), but he wasn't that good against Dallas/OKC. Tim didn't play very well against Portland, but in every other series he was great.

The people who try to use Parker winning FMVP over him in '07 as a knock aren't even worth discussing with. Tim carried us through the first 3 rounds (where we faced our toughest opponents), and then Parker took advantage of a mismatch in the Finals against a team that had a terrible backcourt. While it's generally true, FMVP =/= best player on the team. Parker was nowhere close to Tim in the '07 playoffs.

As for Killakobe81 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=10786) 's take about IRL discussions - the majority of fans I've come across IRL (and even on the internet) are far too enamored with scoring. You can deride analytics all you want, but the other arguments you hear are just as stupid. I've heard people argue AI as a top 10 player of all-time. In 2012-2013, I heard people claiming Melo was the best scorer in the league and wasn't far behind LeBron as an overall player. The average NBA fan watches their hometown team, and then catches highlights on Sports Center. That's not enough to form an informed basketball opinion about players all around the league. They see a few stats here and there, "Melo is averaging 25 ppg, 3rd in the league!" and then they run with it. If you asked someone at your barber shop who Rudy Gobert was, how many people would be able to answer? How many people would tell you the sort of defensive impact he's having this year?

As for whether things will change regarding Kobe...I'm not sure. When he retires, what are you going to see? Highlights. And in the end, that's the sort of thing that makes Kobe seem so amazing. I mean obviously he is an all-time great player, but if you're comparing highlight reels, he's probably top 5 all-time. 81 points, 62 points in 3 quarters, game-winners, etc etc...fans eat that shit up, and I don't see that changing. So if you're arguing that those sort of arguments aren't necessarily good, but that they'll continue anyways, I agree. But I don't think the way many fans judge players is smart. Too much emphasis on cliche bullshit like "clutch moments" and rings. Do those things matter? Sure. But not to the extent people argue.

[Killakobe81]

I am not very familiar of the american barber shop culture so I trust you on this one... :lol in France you find these experts in the "cafe du coin".

Thing is there are so many parameters when discussing greatests, why don't use the most advanced ones as part of the argumentation. ST community is pretty much well educated in terms of bb to see the big picture behind the rings count, average dude and new age mainstream fans (who say the 80's suck because the chicken players eat today is better or spend their time glorifying individuals vs. team) opinion don't matter tbh

but they do. You can say you dont care but arguing duncan is great on Spurstalk where half the posters are trolls and the other half are pro duncan is different than discussing in other parts of society was my point. I appreciate metrics (unlike Charles) and you can see the shift in the media with guys like Lowe and Pelton writing for Grantland and ESPN. And some guys here like Amb and plenty of others really have a good grasp on most metrics. But acting as though this site is reflective of most hoops fans is naive. Most fans do not get that deep and there are more fans that fit in that category whether you value their opinion or not. My point is I dont see a big changei n the way Kobe is viewed because those that truly value metrics and undervalue them most already downgrade Kobe. that wont change. My other is rings do absolutely matter when discussing Tim (point of OP) and though he may not pass MJ it definitely helps put him closer imho.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah you could easily argue that Tim was the most consistently important player to last year's title run. Obviously Kawhi took over in the Finals (also had a great series against Portland), but he wasn't that good against Dallas/OKC. Tim didn't play very well against Portland, but in every other series he was great.

The people who try to use Parker winning FMVP over him in '07 as a knock aren't even worth discussing with. Tim carried us through the first 3 rounds (where we faced our toughest opponents), and then Parker took advantage of a mismatch in the Finals against a team that had a terrible backcourt. While it's generally true, FMVP =/= best player on the team. Parker was nowhere close to Tim in the '07 playoffs.

As for Killakobe81 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=10786) 's take about IRL discussions - the majority of fans I've come across IRL (and even on the internet) are far too enamored with scoring. You can deride analytics all you want, but the other arguments you hear are just as stupid. I've heard people argue AI as a top 10 player of all-time. In 2012-2013, I heard people claiming Melo was the best scorer in the league and wasn't far behind LeBron as an overall player. The average NBA fan watches their hometown team, and then catches highlights on Sports Center. That's not enough to form an informed basketball opinion about players all around the league. They see a few stats here and there, "Melo is averaging 25 ppg, 3rd in the league!" and then they run with it. If you asked someone at your barber shop who Rudy Gobert was, how many people would be able to answer? How many people would tell you the sort of defensive impact he's having this year?

As for whether things will change regarding Kobe...I'm not sure. When he retires, what are you going to see? Highlights. And in the end, that's the sort of thing that makes Kobe seem so amazing. I mean obviously he is an all-time great player, but if you're comparing highlight reels, he's probably top 5 all-time. 81 points, 62 points in 3 quarters, game-winners, etc etc...fans eat that shit up, and I don't see that changing. So if you're arguing that those sort of arguments aren't necessarily good, but that they'll continue anyways, I agree. But I don't think the way many fans judge players is smart. Too much emphasis on cliche bullshit like "clutch moments" and rings. Do those things matter? Sure. But not to the extent people argue.

Two things:

1st agree with a bunch of what you said. right or wrong that is the way most fans think. I did not say I did not like metrics I do ... especially when they back up my argument ...same for most of us ...which again is why I do have a issue most stats are used for EXACTLY that purpose. People juke stats. All the time. School rezoning is a prime example of this outside of sports.Same with crime stats. (now I sound like Prezbo on "The Wire")

2nd: you are right highlights will be kind to Kobe in some regards but the clips people have made of him jacking up contested shots over three people make or miss will also be part of the story too ... film doesn't lie.

[endrity]

Killakobe, you are right that most barbershop/watercooler talk will not be done by people using extensively win shares and plus-minus. But more and more articles on the internet and eventually in the media will be written by informed people, and in most of the advanced metrics stuff Kobe comes out not great. Eventually a lot of people will read some of this stuff in their life to be reminded in the back of their head that Kobe's numbers are not as great as Jordan or LeBron's. Or at least I think so. And then the barbershop talk might evolve to smth along the lines of "Kobe scored a lot of points cause he kept chucking those shots" and "Duncan did a lot more things well than Kobe ever did, he rebounded and played defense much better".

I feel there is a storm close to brewing around Kobe's career, as most stat guys clearly disagree with the praise he has gotten and you can tell that by how little they write about him. But they won't go out in a limb and say it on the open, or at least don't want to be the first to say it because they know the shitstorm it will create. Hollinger for example would drop a lot of hints that he never saw Kobe as highly as he did Duncan or LeBron. Sooner or later that talk will be held.

There are people out there who hate Kobe for irrational reasons (Shaq, Colorado) and that creates a whole perception that everyone that disagrees with Kobe's evaluation is somehow a "Kobe-hater". I don't hate the guy, he doesn't seem like the greatest teammate, but whatever. I think there are greater Lakers than him. I think he's close to the Top 10 to ever play, maybe in or maybe out, but somewhere in there. I just think he's a step below Duncan-Shaq-LeBron, and compared to the next two of his generation, Dirk and KG, he probably benefited too much from the stacked teams he played on. I don't think that's very irrational but I know Kobe fans would get angry at that.

[Killakobe81]

Killakobe, you are right that most barbershop/watercooler talk will not be done by people using extensively win shares and plus-minus. But more and more articles on the internet and eventually in the media will be written by informed people, and in most of the advanced metrics stuff Kobe comes out not great. Eventually a lot of people will read some of this stuff in their life to be reminded in the back of their head that Kobe's numbers are not as great as Jordan or LeBron's. Or at least I think so. And then the barbershop talk might evolve to smth along the lines of "Kobe scored a lot of points cause he kept chucking those shots" and "Duncan did a lot more things well than Kobe ever did, he rebounded and played defense much better".

I feel there is a storm close to brewing around Kobe's career, as most stat guys clearly disagree with the praise he has gotten and you can tell that by how little they write about him. But they won't go out in a limb and say it on the open, or at least don't want to be the first to say it because they know the shitstorm it will create. Hollinger for example would drop a lot of hints that he never saw Kobe as highly as he did Duncan or LeBron. Sooner or later that talk will be held.

There are people out there who hate Kobe for irrational reasons (Shaq, Colorado) and that creates a whole perception that everyone that disagrees with Kobe's evaluation is somehow a "Kobe-hater". I don't hate the guy, he doesn't seem like the greatest teammate, but whatever. I think there are greater Lakers than him. I think he's close to the Top 10 to ever play, maybe in or maybe out, but somewhere in there. I just think he's a step below Duncan-Shaq-LeBron, and compared to the next two of his generation, Dirk and KG, he probably benefited too much from the stacked teams he played on. I don't think that's very irrational but I know Kobe fans would get angry at that.

Ill keep it short and again I agree with most of what you said but there are still plenty of people who dont get deep with metrics that rate Jordan over Kobe and even Lebron over Kobe. Jordan it's a open and shut case. The Lebron one is different if you value rings scoring fundamentals. but i think in the end as long as he wins some more that will be closed down too .. that is not a big shock and no knock on Kobe. MJ and jordan are two of the best to ever do it ...Same with Dirk and KG tbh. I expect that you would argue Kobe played with stacked teams (that has always been a rgument for players that dont win it, no offense) and I agre the 3 peat was stacked with great role players plus Shaqobe. But the last two rings those teams were not that great. in fact, I would easily take the 2011 Mavs or 2014 Spurs over them. Same with the repeat Heat.

[SpursFan86]

Yeah, you would get torn apart IRL if you said Kobe wasn't top 10 all-time...but it's a legitimate argument to be made. He's definitely a tier below guys like Duncan/Shaq/LeBron, but again, saying that IRL would probably get you laughed at. My friends legitimately thought I was kidding one day when I said I would take Duncan over Kobe without hesitation. I explained my reasoning (defense/rebounding, how he fits alongside anyone you put him next to, his longevity, etc.), but they still just kind of shrugged it off and assumed I was being a homer since they know I'm from SA.

[endrity]

I guess I would say that I rate 2008-10 Bynum quite high, and therefore his combination with Gasol was a monster of a frontline. I know most Laker fans often blamed everything on Bynum and weren't very fond of him but I disagree. Before the constant injuries clearly destroyed his body, he was to me the 2nd best center in the league and only because a fully healthy, uber athletic, Howard was the first. To me that cast was better than what Dirk had in '11 or the one KG had in 2010, when the Celtics seemed to have lost a step. I would agree though that KG's 2008 Celtics were probably an even better cast, with guys like Posey and PJ Brown playing some great basketball of the bench as well along the great starters they had.

[Brazil]

Ill keep it short and again I agree with most of what you said but there are still plenty of people who dont get deep with metrics that rate Jordan over Kobe and even Lebron over Kobe. Jordan it's a open and shut case. The Lebron one is different if you value rings scoring fundamentals. but i think in the end as long as he wins some more that will be closed down too .. that is not a big shock and no knock on Kobe. MJ and jordan are two of the best to ever do it ...Same with Dirk and KG tbh. I expect that you would argue Kobe played with stacked teams (that has always been a rgument for players that dont win it, no offense) and I agre the 3 peat was stacked with great role players plus Shaqobe. But the last two rings those teams were not that great. in fact, I would easily take the 2011 Mavs or 2014 Spurs over them. Same with the repeat Heat.

Always said, Kobe contrary the first 3 was the main guy of last two. The MVPau stuff is nice and all but despite the fact MVPau contributed greatly the weather man of the team was clearly kobe imho.

And you yes you take 2014 Spurs over them and it's not even close :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

Already by far the best player of his era, where would a 6th put Duncan in relation to the all time legit greats?

You'd get a ton of Duncan vs Jordan media comparisons.
It would put more distance between he and Shaq as far as career.
Dirk and Gasol had a nice run but only for a few years, Finals wise.

Also would further Ginobilis distance over Kirby Bryant as best sidekick of era. Also put GNob in the discussion with Pippen as best sidekick all time.
Altho his choke of 6 and earlier foul on Dork in 2006 are major subtractors.

It's gonna be tough, but if the Spurs can get healthy and their coach can return to 90% of how he coached last year.......6th is possible. :toast

Due to his boring style of play and low stats... rings don't really do anything for Jim. Notice when people talk about great players, Bill Russell never is mentioned, yet he has 12... two of which he coached and played. Duncan will never be mentioned once he retires. Think I'm just fucking with you... go to nba.com and see who dominates the conversation... Jim or Kobe. Jim can win another two rings, but he still has to live with the fact that there is one player out there that owned is ass head to head... and that's Kobe.

http://www.nba.com/

[endrity]

Yeah, you would get torn apart IRL if you said Kobe wasn't top 10 all-time...but it's a legitimate argument to be made. He's definitely a tier below guys like Duncan/Shaq/LeBron, but again, saying that IRL would probably get you laughed at. My friends legitimately thought I was kidding one day when I said I would take Duncan over Kobe without hesitation. I explained my reasoning (defense/rebounding, how he fits alongside anyone you put him next to, his longevity, etc.), but they still just kind of shrugged it off and assumed I was being a homer since they know I'm from SA.

Despite what Laker fans like to think, the media loves Kobe. Whenever someone on ESPN dares criticize him, he is often shot down immediately. They just don't love him as much as LeBron, which to me is correct because he is not as good a player.

[Brazil]

I guess I would say that I rate 2008-10 Bynum quite high, and therefore his combination with Gasol was a monster of a frontline. I know most Laker fans often blamed everything on Bynum and weren't very fond of him but I disagree. Before the constant injuries clearly destroyed his body, he was to me the 2nd best center in the league and only because a fully healthy, uber athletic, Howard was the first. To me that cast was better than what Dirk had in '11 or the one KG had in 2010, when the Celtics seemed to have lost a step. I would agree though that KG's 2008 Celtics were probably an even better cast, with guys like Posey and PJ Brown playing some great basketball of the bench as well along the great starters they had.

I agree on Bynum, his contribution has been key between 08-10 he was dominant

[endrity]

Due to his boring style of play and low stats... rings don't really do anything for Jim. Notice when people talk about great players, Bill Russell never is mentioned, yet he has 12... two of which he coached and played. Duncan will never be mentioned once he retires. Think I'm just fucking with you... go to nba.com and see who dominates the conversation... Jim or Kobe. Jim can win another two rings, but he still has to live with the fact that there is one player out there that owned is ass head to head... and that's Kobe.

http://www.nba.com/

No, the player that sometime owned his ass was Shaq. Sans Shaq, Tim is 5-4 vs. Kobe in the playoffs.

[Brazil]

Due to his boring style of play and low stats... rings don't really do anything for Jim. Notice when people talk about great players, Bill Russell never is mentioned, yet he has 12... two of which he coached and played. Duncan will never be mentioned once he retires. Think I'm just fucking with you... go to nba.com and see who dominates the conversation... Jim or Kobe. Jim can win another two rings, but he still has to live with the fact that there is one player out there that owned is ass head to head... and that's Kobe.

http://www.nba.com/

now we have some barber shop take

thanks we needed that for our demonstration

[RsxPiimp]

No, the player that sometime owned his ass was Shaq. Sans Shaq, Tim is 5-4 vs. Kobe in the playoffs.

Please don't tell me this includes 2012

[endrity]

2008 and 2013 , the series where Kobe played without Shaq against the Spurs, 4-1 and 0-4

[RsxPiimp]

2008 and 2013 , the series where Kobe played without Shaq against the Spurs, 4-1 and 0-4

Kobe played how many games in that series?

[Thread]

Kobe played how many games in that series?

None. That was the one where Pau & Nash were gonna show everybody.

tee, hee.

[Buddy Mignon]

No, the player that sometime owned his ass was Shaq. Sans Shaq, Tim is 5-4 vs. Kobe in the playoffs.


It remains 4-2, Kobe over Jim. Kobe didn't play in the last meeting. If he had the Lakers would have easily beat Jim like they always do. And why are you talking... you got half a fucking ring over there... with a leading honky that married a goat herding, cow blood drinking Kenyan.

First the nigga got cold called into marriage by this tranny...

PTKX8LRRm2M



Then he pays some African a thousand cows for this goat herder.

vLpAMh3ctpQ

I wonder how Dirk felt when his baby came out black...:lmao

[endrity]

Kobe played how many games in that series?

Touche!

Still, it seems very reasonable to think that given what both teams had shown even with healthy Kobe, the Spurs would have walked all over them.

[RsxPiimp]

Touche!

Still, it seems very reasonable to think that given what both teams had shown even with healthy Kobe, the Spurs would have walked all over them.

I have no doubts the Spurs would win the series, I just find it odd when people brings in the 2013 playoff series. Plus that was Pau's team from my understanding.

[Buddy Mignon]

Touche!

Still, it seems very reasonable to think that given what both teams had shown even with healthy Kobe, the Spurs would have walked all over them.


You thought that in 2008.

[endrity]

I have no doubts the Spurs would win the series, I just find it odd when people brings in the 2013 playoff series. Plus that was Pau's team from my understanding.

Well I also never believe in the MVPau talk, it was Kobe's team, but he had a hell of team around him in 2008-2010.

[RsxPiimp]

You thought that in 2008.

[coachmac87]

Duncan is the best "Big Man" to ever play the game and for multiple reasons...

Just look at his true BASKETBALL SKILLS..What couldn't Duncan do? He face you up and hit it off the glass from 15ft out. Beat bigs off the dribble and get into the paint. Hook shots with left or right hands. Up and under..turn around jumper from post position. Amazing foot work. Soft hands. Can pass. And he's been an elite post defender his entire career. On the ball or help defense..

NOBODY compares with his longevity at ANY position in the leagues history. This to me sets him apart from any big man that's played the game. His game has changed soooo much since he came into the league and had adjusted and been extremely efficient in different era doing it different ways.

Russell and Wilt are the founding fathers of the "Big Man" and they will always be legends. But they never had true skills like Duncan. They were dominant due to their size and the amount of teams in the league.

Again he's the best Big Man that has ever lived...dominated since day 1 and will probably dominate in his last

[Thread]

Duncan is the best "Big Man" to ever play the game and for multiple reasons...

Just look at his true BASKETBALL SKILLS..What couldn't Duncan do? He face you up and hit it off the glass from 15ft out. Beat bigs off the dribble and get into the paint. Hook shots with left or right hands. Up and under..turn around jumper from post position. Amazing foot work. Soft hands. Can pass. And he's been an elite post defender his entire career. On the ball or help defense..

NOBODY compares with his longevity at ANY position in the leagues history. This to me sets him apart from any big man that's played the game. His game has changed soooo much since he came into the league and had adjusted and been extremely efficient in different era doing it different ways.

Russell and Wilt are the founding fathers of the "Big Man" and they will always be legends. But they never had true skills like Duncan. They were dominant due to their size and the amount of teams in the league.

Again he's the best Big Man that has ever lived...dominated since day 1 and will probably dominate in his last

But, he fucked up and gave one back. Let a woman hamstring him. That's pussy, that's chickenshit.

[SpursFan86]

I always hear this "Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs!" argument...so let's get this out of the way.

1) Head-to-head matchups are a terrible way to judge players. I remember people used that shit to argue Deron Williams > CP3 :lol It's even dumber when you realize Kobe is a SG and Duncan is a PF/C. Then it gets even funnier when you look at their playoff numbers over the course of their entire careers, where Duncan has a clear edge. But let's do this anyways...

2) Duncan outperformed Kobe in 1999, 2002, and 2003. Kobe outperformed Duncan in 2001, 2004, and 2008. That's not uneven. Just because the Lakers won in 2002 doesn't mean Kobe outplayed Duncan. Duncan clearly had the better series that year, he was just not fortunate enough to play alongside anyone remotely as good as prime Shaq. So Duncan has outplayed Kobe 3 times in the playoffs, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan 3 times in the playoffs. That's what's supposed to push Kobe ahead of Duncan all-time? :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

Duncan is the best "Big Man" to ever play the game and for multiple reasons...

Just look at his true BASKETBALL SKILLS..What couldn't Duncan do? He face you up and hit it off the glass from 15ft out. Beat bigs off the dribble and get into the paint. Hook shots with left or right hands. Up and under..turn around jumper from post position. Amazing foot work. Soft hands. Can pass. And he's been an elite post defender his entire career. On the ball or help defense..

NOBODY compares with his longevity at ANY position in the leagues history. This to me sets him apart from any big man that's played the game. His game has changed soooo much since he came into the league and had adjusted and been extremely efficient in different era doing it different ways.

Russell and Wilt are the founding fathers of the "Big Man" and they will always be legends. But they never had true skills like Duncan. They were dominant due to their size and the amount of teams in the league.

Again he's the best Big Man that has ever lived...dominated since day 1 and will probably dominate in his last

You could argue that he's not even the best big man of his era, but to say he's better than Kareem is ridiculous.

[Buddy Mignon]

I always hear this "Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs!" argument...so let's get this out of the way.

1) Head-to-head matchups are a terrible way to judge players. I remember people used that shit to argue Deron Williams > CP3 :lol It's even dumber when you realize Kobe is a SG and Duncan is a PF/C. Then it gets even funnier when you look at their playoff numbers over the course of their entire careers, where Duncan has a clear edge. But let's do this anyways...

2) Duncan outperformed Kobe in 1999, 2002, and 2003. Kobe outperformed Duncan in 2001, 2004, and 2008. That's not uneven. Just because the Lakers won in 2002 doesn't mean Kobe outplayed Duncan. Duncan clearly had the better series that year, he was just not fortunate enough to play alongside anyone remotely as good as prime Shaq. So Duncan has outplayed Kobe 3 times in the playoffs, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan 3 times in the playoffs. That's what's supposed to push Kobe ahead of Duncan all-time? :lol


Its all about wins, son.

[100%duncan]

You could argue that he's not even the best big man of his era, but to say he's better than Kareem is ridiculous.

Is Timmy a Hokage? Huh faggot?

[Buddy Mignon]

But, he fucked up and gave one back. Let a woman hamstring him. That's pussy, that's chickenshit.


This is true... he's the only of his kind in that category.

[coachmac87]

But, he fucked up and gave one back. Let a woman hamstring him. That's pussy, that's chickenshit.

Off the court family issues doesn't have an impact on his basketball legacy..

And he didn't give SHIT back. He didn't miss the free throws in "6". His coach made a costly mistake of taking him out during the Ray Allen play...he missed a shot in "7". But that didn't seal the deal..LeBrons jump shot the following play did..

And is that all you got??

[Buddy Mignon]

Is Timmy a Hokage? Huh faggot?


I'll be a fag... but you still live in the Philippines.:lmao

[100%duncan]

I'll be a fag... but you still live in the Philippines.:lmao

You still watch Naruto. I win. :lmao

[Buddy Mignon]

Off the court family issues doesn't have an impact on his basketball legacy..

And he didn't give SHIT back. He didn't miss the free throws in "6". His coach made a costly mistake of taking him out during the Ray Allen play...he missed a shot in "7". But that didn't seal the deal..LeBrons jump shot the following play did..

And is that all you got??

Of course it does. He is the only athlete to ever go in the trophy case and give a title back. They had to go in the Spurs locker room and move the champagne to the Heat's locker room.

[Brazil]

Duncan is the best "Big Man" to ever play the game and for multiple reasons...

Just look at his true BASKETBALL SKILLS..What couldn't Duncan do? He face you up and hit it off the glass from 15ft out. Beat bigs off the dribble and get into the paint. Hook shots with left or right hands. Up and under..turn around jumper from post position. Amazing foot work. Soft hands. Can pass. And he's been an elite post defender his entire career. On the ball or help defense..

NOBODY compares with his longevity at ANY position in the leagues history. This to me sets him apart from any big man that's played the game. His game has changed soooo much since he came into the league and had adjusted and been extremely efficient in different era doing it different ways.

Russell and Wilt are the founding fathers of the "Big Man" and they will always be legends. But they never had true skills like Duncan. They were dominant due to their size and the amount of teams in the league.

Again he's the best Big Man that has ever lived...dominated since day 1 and will probably dominate in his last

Career wise I think the only comparable is Kareem tbh Kareem played 20 seasons vs. so far 18 for Tim. Last Kareem season was so so tho, Tim is still a 15 / 10 guy this year Kareem dropped a bit on rebounding from 85-86, Duncan's consistency rebounding the ball is quite impressive.

At his peak you can discuss Shaq, Hakeem... few others

[Buddy Mignon]

You still watch Naruto. I win. :lmao


You win??? You're posting from a cafe as we speak... noisy as fuck... smells like death... all while you're waiting on a special dish called deep fried dog. And you're winning...:downspin:

[SpursFan86]

Its all about wins, son.

You might be trolling, but the sad thing is, there are plenty of fans who actually have this antiquated way of thinking. For some reason, they can't fathom the idea of a player playing really well and losing, or playing really poorly and still winning. Tony Parker didn't outplay LeBron in last year's Finals. MJ didn't get outperformed by fucking Joe Dumars in the '90 ECF :lol Basketball is a team sport.

[Brazil]

You could argue that he's not even the best big man of his era, but to say he's better than Kareem is ridiculous.


Its all about wins, son.


Of course it does. He is the only athlete to ever go in the trophy case and give a title back. They had to go in the Spurs locker room and move the champagne to the Heat's locker room.

barber shop takes :tu

[Buddy Mignon]

Career wise I think the only comparable is Kareem tbh Kareem played 20 seasons vs. so far 18 for Tim. Last season was so so tho, Tim is still a 15 / 10 guy this year Kareem dropped a bit on rebounding from 85-86, Duncan's consistency rebounding the ball is quite impressive.

At his peak you can discuss Shaq, Hakeem... few others

You wouldnt even dare compare Kareem's accomplishments to Jim's. It would be the most lop sided comparison in sports. One was a role player that only won in the pros and the other was a dominant stud that won on every level.

[Buddy Mignon]

You might be trolling, but the sad thing is, there are plenty of fans who actually have this antiquated way of thinking. For some reason, they can't fathom the idea of a player playing really well and losing, or playing really poorly and still winning. Tony Parker didn't outplay LeBron in last year's Finals. MJ didn't get outperformed by fucking Joe Dumars in the '90 ECF :lol Basketball is a team sport.


Its all relevant, except when you inject Kobe into the conversation.

[StrengthAndHonor]

You win??? You're posting from a cafe as we speak... noisy as fuck... smells like death... all while you're waiting on a special dish called deep fried dog. And you're winning...:downspin:
That;s cold man.

[Brazil]

You wouldnt even dare compare Kareem's accomplishments to Jim's. It would be the most lop sided comparison in sports. One was a role player that only won in the pros and the other was a dominant stud that won on every level.

Of course I dare...

try me naruto and your barber shop takes

[Thread]

Off the court family issues doesn't have an impact on his basketball legacy..

And he didn't give SHIT back. He didn't miss the free throws in "6". His coach made a costly mistake of taking him out during the Ray Allen play...he missed a shot in "7". But that didn't seal the deal..LeBrons jump shot the following play did..

And is that all you got??

Daddy, sweetheart, he gave one back after it was won. And it happened because he didn't take care of the missus when she called him out. Your morning after regrets are not my lookout.

[xellos88330]

I don't know why people actually care about FMVP when talking about career and achievements. Duncan was the best player of the 5 rings, the fact on a given serie Parker, Kawhi flourished is not relevant imo.

For the rest I agree 5 or 6 won't change dramatically things

I do wish that they had a playoffs MVP because Duncan would easily win that in the title runs. Excelling when it is needed the most is what the FMVP is all about. If Duncan were to win FMVP at his advanced age, it would prove that Tim Duncan's game and play style stands the test of time. We Spurs fans already know it does, but we are only a small percentage of NBA fans. To really affect a legacy you need the attention of the basketball world. Winning the FMVP so late in his career would most certainly accomplish this.

[coachmac87]

Daddy, sweetheart, he gave one back after it was won. And it happened because he didn't take care of the missus when she called him out. Your morning after regrets are not my lookout.

I'm not mourning over anything lol. I just said in my opinion he's the best big man by basketball skills alone..

Instead of making points when it comes to being a "basketball player"..you desperately dig into his personal life and try to be funny. You're chicken shit.

[coachmac87]

Fuck Kareem...he played with the best PG of all time...he doesn't even come close to Duncan when it comes to skills on the court..nobody gave a fuck about him in Milwaukee.

[Brazil]

I do wish that they had a playoffs MVP because Duncan would easily win that in the title runs. Excelling when it is needed the most is what the FMVP is all about. If Duncan were to win FMVP at his advanced age, it would prove that Tim Duncan's game and play style stands the test of time. We Spurs fans already know it does, but we are only a small percentage of NBA fans. To really affect a legacy you need the attention of the basketball world. Winning the FMVP so late in his career would most certainly accomplish this.

but again that would mean we care about barber shop opinions...

FMVP award is indeed dumb as fuck and makes no sense whatsoever... a PO MVP now that would make sense but even if it does not exist people into bb things know tbh... One of the pic used to illustrate the Spurs 5th is this one:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/Spurs_2942921b.jpg

There is no doubt about who is the franchise player who lead his team to a 5th tbh

[Brazil]

^ BTW this pic shows that even if Tim is the nice guy he is not fucking stupid. He knew exactly what he was doing on that pic... Tim is telling people nice FMVP Kawhi but "This is my team and I'm the alpha"

[Killakobe81]

but again that would mean we care about barber shop opinions...

FMVP award is indeed dumb as fuck and makes no sense whatsoever... a PO MVP now that would make sense but even if it does not exist people into bb things know tbh... One of the pic used to illustrate the Spurs 5th is this one:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/Spurs_2942921b.jpg

There is no doubt about who is the franchise player who lead his team to a 5th tbh

You say you dont care and maybe you don't. But all the griping upstairs and down here about not enough respect, the media loves flashy dunks, monkey-ball players over winning doesn't that imply you DO care?

[Brazil]

You say you dont care and maybe you don't. But all the griping upstairs and down here about not enough respect, the media loves flashy dunks, monkey-ball players over winning doesn't that imply you DO care?

:lol I'm not on this boat, I always laugh at my fellow SFs with their Spurs is class, fuck the media and their :cry we got no respect from the media, our favorite player is not in the ASG :cry

[Brazil]

^ it does not mean I'm not happy when Spurs receive recognition they deserve

[Thread]

^ BTW this pic shows that even if Tim is the nice guy he is not fucking stupid.

A. he let his wife do him dirt, do him damnable dirt.

B. he let some stranger lift his wallet to the tune of $20 million.

He's an asshole.

[Thread]

I'm not mourning over anything lol. I just said in my opinion he's the best big man by basketball skills alone..

Instead of making points when it comes to being a "basketball player"..you desperately dig into his personal life and try to be funny. You're chicken shit.

Perhaps, but, I've never had to go to the trophy case and surrender 1.

I had 16 and I've got 16. You had 6 and you've got 5. Just because Media left ya's be don't mean I have to.

[Killakobe81]

^ it does not mean I'm not happy when Spurs receive recognition they deserve

You cool Brazil, we may not agree on everything but I appreciate solid reasoning and balanced arguments. It was not meant at you ...Glad we had our discourse I seen you post some things but this was the most interaction we ever had. I look forward to future talks ...

[VBM]

A. he let his wife do him dirt, do him damnable dirt.

B. he let some stranger lift his wallet to the tune of $20 million.

He's an asshole.

All the while

A. Kobe got caught in Colorado, and lost millions in endorsements.

B. Kobe snitched, and lost the respect of his peers

C. Kobe branded himself for his wife after getting caught

D. Kobe lost millions in buying forgiveness from his wife

E. Kobe let Pierce hoodwink him out of that 08 ring.

[Thread]

^I'd trust Bra as far as I could throw him, Killa, and he weighs like 325lbs.

[Brazil]

A. he let his wife do him dirt, do him damnable dirt.

B. he let some stranger lift his wallet to the tune of $20 million.

He's an asshole.

and this is basketball related how ?

[Thread]

All the while

A. Kobe got caught in Colorado, and lost millions in endorsements.

B. Kobe snitched, and lost the respect of his peers

C. Kobe branded himself for his wife after getting caught

D. Kobe lost millions in buying forgiveness from his wife

E. Kobe let Pierce hoodwink him out of that 08 ring.

Kobe's sins don't absolve Duncan his, V.

[Brazil]

You cool Brazil, we may not agree on everything but I appreciate solid reasoning and balanced arguments. It was not meant at you ...Glad we had our discourse I seen you post some things but this was the most interaction we ever had. I look forward to future talks ...

sure thing tbh

[Silver&Black]

Kobe's sins don't absolve Duncan his, V.

5 pages in and you haven't mentioned Amy's bush one single time.....I'm disappointed.

You're slipping.

[Thread]

5 pages in and you haven't mentioned Amy's bush one single time.....I'm disappointed.

You're slipping.

I talk about here all the time to myself as to how I'd incorporate it during a Mono Show. I'm practicin' for that day, Silv.

[Killakobe81]

^I'd trust Bra as far as I could throw him, Killa, and he weighs like 325lbs.

LOL

[Arcadian]

He's already in the top tier of NBA legends. Ring #5 cemented that. Ring #6 doesn't really matter, but it would be icing on the cake.

[Kool Bob Love]

^ BTW this pic shows that even if Tim is the nice guy he is not fucking stupid. He knew exactly what he was doing on that pic... Tim is telling people nice FMVP Kawhi but "This is my team and I'm the alpha"

Sig worthy.