Put Up or Shut Up--Kawhi Leonard: Franchise Player or Not?

[tim_duncan_fan]

Is Kawhi a franchise player or isn't he?

Put your name in the yes or no column once and for all and we'll all watch and see how he shakes out.

[spurraider21]

maybe

[Kool Bob Love]

hes no Duncan.

[mexicanjunior]

No...nice complimentary piece but not a franchise guy.

[Leetonidas]

Depends on what that means. Brandon Jennings was Milwaukee's franchise player for awhile.

If you mean MVP candidate that can make a team a contender solely by playing there ala Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, etc....hell no. Even prime Kobe couldn't do that. I love Leonard, but he is Shawn Marion at best imo. No shame in that

[DontStopBelieving]

Fuck no. The post-Duncan era is going to be bleak

[Uriel]

No. He's more of a Scottie Pippen type; a sidekick to a true franchise player.

[MI21]

Obviously not, not sure how this is really in question.

His ceiling is an All-Star caliber player. One thing we do know though - he elevates his game in the playoffs, which makes him more valuable than his regular season stats would suggest.

The Spurs could do much worse than paying him big money.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

He's not even close. He's an integral piece to any championship team, but he's not a franchise player.

[TrainOfThought5]

If we're in the playoffs... he'll step up.

He'll also develop further... but there wont be a Lebron or Duncan level of dominance he'll need more help than Old Tony, Turnobili and Pussiago Splitter. He'll need a legit team around him.

[DMC]

Sure, if your franchise is in Philly.

Look, Spurs are a product and it's Pop's job to make that product appear to be viable for seasons to come. Pop can't say "welp, once TD retires Spurs are fucked so fuck it, don't buy season tickets". He instead has to find a franchise player from nothing basically. He can't use Tony, fans are too accustomed to what Tony can and cannot do, and he cannot carry the team as a franchise guy. He's a PG, so he shouldn't be required to and you're fucked if he's your best option every night.

KL doesn't HAVE handles. He won't grow them in the playoffs. He does best when he's allowed to freelance, but he's not good when he has to think about what he's going to do, where he needs to be to catch the ball, all that. He needs to just play defense and look for opportunities at the other end. Maybe that's what Pop has told him, but it's likely he's half committed and half freaked the fuck out with the FMVP and subsequent "franchise player" pressure. He's probably not wanting to be a franchise guy, despite how every player feigns that they want to be THAT guy. The problem with getting your shot at being that guy is that you might not help the team, but you might FUCK them up.. (GGGR). Fans won't go back to you when you've been made the franchise guy and fuck it up. Then there's all the money, dude went from nothing to everything, like literally overnight, and the Finals two in a row with a WCF x 3. How many young players can handle that? You can count them on one hand.

[PingPong]

Not even a sidekick or big three. He is in the same league as Splitter, Green.

[wildchild]

Kawhi is becoming a franchise player, he's more and more the offensive focus for other teams, and he shows he can handle the attention.

This has been a hard season for him, he played through the eye injury for two or three months, he missed 20 games with the hand ligament injury, but even if in the last four games he has in a way failed to live up to expectations, he was playing great since his return.

Obviously, he's not the type of superstar like a pick #1 LeBron or Tim, they're unique to the era they're playing in, but he's the franchise player the Spurs can get post Duncan years

[Capt Bringdown]

Remember Cornbread Maxwell? He was another finals MVP, and like Kawhi, he was not a franchise player.

[Texas_Ranger]

Perhaps he can be the second best player on a championship team, I dont see him being the guy on this team. And I love Kawhi but for me he's not the Duncan type.

[r0drig0lac]

Perhaps he can be the second best player on a championship team, I dont see him being the guy on this team. And I love Kawhi but for me he's not the Duncan type.

this

[Skull-1]

Perhaps he can be the second best player on a championship team, I dont see him being the guy on this team. And I love Kawhi but for me he's not the Duncan type.


Just how how many of "the Duncan type" have their been in the history of basketball?

Quite the high bar...

[baseline bum]

Who ever considered Kawhi a franchise player? The only franchise players in the league right now are LeBron, Durant, Davis, Curry, Westbrook, and Harden.

[dbreiden83080]

No.. Have said it before he does not have the offensive firepower to be that guy. He is more of a Pippen a great piece of a puzzle but not the main component.

[dbreiden83080]

Who ever considered Kawhi a franchise player? The only franchise players in the league right now are LeBron, Durant, Davis, Curry, Westbrook, and Harden.

Pop has called him the future of the Spurs..

[Texas_Ranger]

Just how how many of "the Duncan type" have their been in the history of basketball?

Quite the high bar...

Yea I know. It's just that I don't think you can put a team around him and say he'll be the best player on a team that will go far in the payloffs. To me he just doesnt look like the #1 option on a team.

[AaronY]

Nope.

[AaronY]

No.. Have said it before he does not have the offensive firepower to be that guy. He is more of a Pippen a great piece of a puzzle but not the main component.
Pippens like the 10x the player. Team would have 45 wins at this point if they had Pippen

[wildbill2u]

He can be a Larry Kenon or Sean ******, but not a franchise player.

Didn't make the All-star team although some players who have injuries this season did. The glow of the Finals MVP faded pretty fast in folks' minds.

[Plum Island]

Pippens like the 10x the player. Team would have 45 wins at this point if they had Pippen
True. Pippen was on another world compared to Kawhi.
On both sides of the ball.
I really hope he can get to that level on a night in night out basis.
That would be huge.

[Skull-1]

Yea I know. It's just that I don't think you can put a team around him and say he'll be the best player on a team that will go far in the payloffs. To me he just doesnt look like the #1 option on a team.


I think time will tell us. Though, frankly, I don't see SA being relevant once Tim retires no matter how good Leonard is...

[milkyway21]

Right now Kawhi is not a glue like Duncan was when he joined the Spurs to when everybody in the team gelled together.

He's one of the most promising players in the league right now who can play on both ends of the floor but, he is not a player who can draw an all-star/elite player to play in San Antonio so they can win championships.

Not yet.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Defense is half the game and is only ignored by fools. He is clearly a franchise player (not to be confused with an all time great championship player like Timmy - we're spoiled) and overall one of the best players in the league.

[Leetonidas]

I would like to point out he is only 23. He has a looooong way to go and has improved every season, so he may still surprise us yet.


And for those of you saying he's more like a Pippen....um what? Pippen was a legit #1 option and only played second fiddle because Jordan was the GOAT. If Kawhi was Pippen the Spurs would be the best team in the league. It's crazy how underrated Pippen was, look what he did the season Jordan retired for the first time

[Mr Bones]

Unless another David Robinson or Tim Duncan comes around in the next couple of years-- which I doubt-- I think the Spurs will approach rebuilding like the Hawks have the past few years, gathering good, versatile players... Kawhi definitely fits with this plan. To me it seems like one of the big problems the Spurs will have when Manu retires is a lack of ballhandlers. The Spurs have had two de facto PGs for a long time in Tony & Manu, and now both are past their primes. Kawhi isn't a point forward like Pippen was, but it would nice to see him move in that direction.

[FkLA]

I would like to point out he is only 23. He has a looooong way to go and has improved every season, so he may still surprise us yet.


And for those of you saying he's more like a Pippen....um what? Pippen was a legit #1 option and only played second fiddle because Jordan was the GOAT. If Kawhi was Pippen the Spurs would be the best team in the league. It's crazy how underrated Pippen was, look what he did the season Jordan retired for the first time

No, he wasn't. He wasn't the explosive scorer that other guys in his era were. What made him truly great was he was elite in other areas which complimented his 15-20 ppg nicely. He didn't have elite handles either, they were simply adequate. He was more power than finesse, his physique made him dominant. Kawhi is from that same mold...especially now that we've seen glimpses of him being a good passer. If he can develop into a point forward like Pippen they'd be almost carbon copies of each other tbh.

[FkLA]

Pippens like the 10x the player. Team would have 45 wins at this point if they had Pippen

Kawhi is 23 years old...

Compare him to 23 year old Pippen and post the results.

[Malik Hairston]

He's a #2 guy that fits well in the new NBA, a super-utility guy that can do everything, including score on the biggest stage..

The NBA has about 10 franchise players every year IMO, barely ever any more..

At the moment: Curry, Harden, Marc Gasol, Davis, Durant, Westbrook, Aldridge(probably), Lebron
Borderline: Paul, Griffin
Potential: Lillard, Wall, Cousins(doubt that Wall or Lillard will ever reach that status, though)

Building a team around a SF is very difficult, tbh, they generally need to be a generational talent like Lebron or Durant..

[elemento]

No

He is a very good 2nd banana, which is good enough to give him a max contract or something close to it these days.

There aren't many true franchise players in the league ! Duncan was one, Leonard ain't one.

[FkLA]

Yeah, to answer the OP he's definitely better suited as a #2 or a 1a/1b at best.

Still a #2 on offense that also happens to be the best perimeter defender and rebounding SF in the league easily deserves the max tbh.

[hater]

No. Next question

[hater]

He's not even a #2. He's not a playmaker either. So he's a solid #3

[Malik Hairston]

The league is different now, too..

Two of the past 4 champions won championships with an unconventional hierarchy, with the Spurs not having a "#2" and the Mavs' having Tyson Chandler(a super-role player) as their #2..even the Heat were better when Wade was off the floor when they won their 2013 championship..

The Grizzlies and Pacers were the conference finalists in 2013, and those teams didn't have conventional "stars" at the top of their lineups, either..

[FkLA]

He's not a playmaker either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTUUeMZ3Jcg

lol Fat Enrique ordered to stand in the corner

[TheGreatYacht]

Not sure he's even Shawn Marion IMO. We're all seeing how inefficient he is when he is relied upon (43.8fg%) ... Matrix atleast had a season where he averaged 21.8ppg, 11.8rpg, 1.7bpg, 2.0spg, 52.5fg%

Hope he somehow gets there though, but I doubt it.

[Malik Hairston]

Not sure he's even Shawn Marion IMO. We're all seeing how inefficient he is when he is relied upon (43.8fg%) ... Matrix atleast had a season where he averaged 21.8ppg, 11.8rpg, 1.7bpg, 2.0spg, 52.5fg%

Hope he somehow gets there though, but I doubt it.

Congrats on your Cavs getting Perkins today, Joe..

[TheGreatYacht]

Congrats on your Cavs getting Perkins today, Joe..
Not a Lebron fan, but you are though.. :lol

[milkyway21]

The good thing about Kawhi is, his determination to be the best, his above par DEFENSE, quick hands, his character(no ego), his self discipline and his offense (he can shoot anywhere on the floor).
What's lacking is : consistency on OFFENSE.

Still worth the Spurs to build around force in the future.
I'd hate to see this player playing for other teams when Duncan & Manu retire.

[FkLA]

Congrats on your Cavs getting Perkins today, Joe..

:lmao :lmao nice avy

[KL2]

Yes, people forget the shit supporting cast he helped carry this entire year :lol

I know a lot of people in here don't play basketball (hell even I don't), but it's simple really, your shot has to do with muscle memory. You need to gain a rhythm, get that "memory" back, if your shot mechanics are off just a tiny bit, you're off. When you see players go through shooting slumps, that's why, they're not getting enough lift in their shot, their release has slightly changed, something is different.

Leonard has had his eye injury at the start, another hand injury, it's basically interrupted him, kept him from finding his rhythm. Once his 3 ball starts falling it'll open up more of his game.

[dabom]

Congrats on your Cavs getting Perkins today, Joe..

:lmao

[RD2191]

When can Anthony Davis leave the Pelicans? Spurs need to go after him hard. Pair him with Kawhi.

[dabom]

The good thing about Kawhi is, his determination to be the best, his above par DEFENSE, quick hands, his character(no ego), his self discipline and his offense (he can shoot anywhere on the floor).
What's lacking is : consistency on OFFENSE.

Still worth the Spurs to build around force in the future.
I'd hate to see this player playing for other teams when Duncan & Manu retire.

I agree. I only see 5 players that I consider franchise and only like 3 can translate it to the playoffs. None of those players were as good as kawhi at 23 tbh. Who knows what kawhi will be at 28 tbh. 5 fucking years from now. :lmao
I swear all these fucking losers. :lmao

[dabom]

When can Anthony Davis leave the Pelicans? Spurs need to go after him hard. Pair him with Kawhi.

I swear dude. Kawhi and Davis with pop and parker coming off the bench. :lmao

[Hoops Czar]

:lmao Laughable how many posters did an about face within an 8 month time frame. If this poll was posted after 5, it would have been a landslide yes. Leonard reminds me a lot of Sean Elliott on offense. I always thought had Elliott been the third best player on the Spurs during the Robinson era rather than the second, they would have been a serious threat to win a championship. Leonard's a defensive specialist and is currently a second option on a bad team and a third option on a good team. I don't know if that will ever change.

[dabom]

:lmao Laughable how many posters did an about face within an 8 month time frame. If this poll was posted after 5, it would have been a landslide yes. Leonard reminds me a lot of Sean Elliott on offense. I always thought had Elliott been the third best player on the Spurs during the Robinson era rather than the second, they would have been a serious threat to win a championship. Leonard's a defensive specialist and is currently a second option on a bad team and a third option on a good team. I don't know if that will ever change.

Clown resident per par. I'm going to bump this shit after we get six faggot. Add to the stupid shit hoopfaggot says.

[Hoops Czar]

Clown resident per par. I'm going to bump this shit after we get six faggot. Add to the stupid shit hoopfaggot says.

I find it harder and harder to take anything you post seriously. Do you know Slomo personally? How the hell did you slip through the door when TSpence had his account approved? You don't even make for a good troll.

[Chinook]

The Spurs need to do whatever it takes to keep Leonard while also doing whatever they can to get someone better than Leonard. Simple as that.

[dabom]

I find it harder and harder to take anything you post seriously. Do you know Slomo personally? How the hell did you slip through the door when TSpence had his account approved? You don't even make for a good troll.
Do you even read what you post. :lmao
I called slomo on his cell and asked him to approve my account during the tspence saga. :lol

[Malik Hairston]

Hoops Czar also said he would take Reggie Jackson over anybody on the Spurs outside of Parker/Duncan, and that Jackson is a potential superstar..good take, tbh..

[Hoops Czar]

Hoops Czar also said he would take Reggie Jackson over anybody on the Spurs outside of Parker/Duncan, and that Jackson is a potential superstar..good take, tbh..

My "sources :lol" failed me that day. I, however, didn't say Richard Jefferson was a perfect fit for the Spurs and the missing link and THE "Malik Hairston" was going to be the next Vince Carter.

[Malik Hairston]

My "sources :lol" failed me that day. I, however, didn't say Richard Jefferson was a perfect fit for the Spurs and the missing link and THE "Malik Hairston" was going to be the next Vince Carter.

Never said that Malik Hairston thing, this nigga is making shit up now:lol..

Richard Jefferson was 5 years ago(I was also one of the first to jump off), your Reggie Jackson comment was just last year in like January, after the Spurs just made it to the NBA Finals, and he hadn't done anything relevant in the NBA(still hasn't)..smh,.

[Hoops Czar]

Never said that Malik Hairston thing, this nigga is making shit up now:lol..

Richard Jefferson was 5 years ago(I was also one of the first to jump off), your Reggie Jackson comment was just last year in like January, after the Spurs just made it to the NBA Finals, and he hadn't done anything relevant in the NBA(still hasn't)..smh,.

Nigga's don't lie :lol, tbh. Didn't realize there was a statute of limitations on Internet posts. :lmao Jumped off? I jumped off of Reggie Jackson comment 6 hours after I got sober. I didn't realize I had to post it in the forum in order for it to count. You can just ask my "sources :lol".... Quit changes the rules on me nigg.

Just realized you didn't vote.... Is that so you don't get called out at a later date ? :lol. You don't want to embarrass your brand if your wrong, I guess....

[spurs10]

Never said that Malik Hairston thing, this nigga is making shit up now:lol..

Richard Jefferson was 5 years ago(I was also one of the first to jump off), your Reggie Jackson comment was just last year in like January, after the Spurs just made it to the NBA Finals, and he hadn't done anything relevant in the NBA(still hasn't)..smh,. Malik my girl and I had to laugh at your avatar pic.... the "fat and happy....beautiful wife.....baby....boatload of money....mansion....life is good" look! Not funny!! :lol

[Ginobili3]

We'll see in 3 years

[spurraider21]

Who ever considered Kawhi a franchise player? The only franchise players in the league right now are LeBron, Durant, Davis, Curry, Westbrook, and Harden.
You are confusing elite for franchise. Imo.

Guys like fat gasol, Aldridge, Blake, wall, cousins and more, would all qualify as franchise guys

[apalisoc_9]

Hoops Czar also said he would take Reggie Jackson over anybody on the Spurs outside of Parker/Duncan, and that Jackson is a potential superstar..good take, tbh..

:lmao

[apalisoc_9]

Nigga's don't lie :lol, tbh. Didn't realize there was a statute of limitations on Internet posts. :lmao Jumped off? I jumped off of Reggie Jackson comment 6 hours after I got sober. I didn't realize I had to post it in the forum in order for it to count. You can just ask my "sources :lol".... Quit changes the rules on me nigg.

Just realized you didn't vote.... Is that so you don't get called out at a later date ? :lol. You don't want to embarrass your brand if your wrong, I guess....

The drunk card..

:lmao

[wijayas]

Big NO. His ceiling is Pippen, max. And Pippen is no franchise player.
Sorry Kawhi; shooting 1-11 is not going to help!

[milkyway21]

Big NO. His ceiling is Pippen, max. And Pippen is no franchise player.
Sorry Kawhi; shooting 1-11 is not going to help!

Kobe shot a record worrst 1-14 in 2013 vs the Spurs (thanks to Danny Green's D ), but he's a franchise player .. : :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Kobe shot a record worrst 1-14 in 2013 vs the Spurs (thanks to Danny Green's D ), but he's a franchise player .. : :lol
That was at age 36/37 after 2 season ending injuries.

Kawhi shot that AFTER a week's rest and at age 23 :lol

[milkyway21]

That was at age 36/37 after 2 season ending injuries.

Kawhi shot that AFTER a week's rest and at age 23 :lol

Sad, but true.

No alibis. No excuse :lol

[DrSteffo]

I voted no but I like him a lot. They should of course keep him and pay him and wait for a nr 1 franchise player (which might take some time).

[Gagnrath]

So much of this depends on how you define franchise player.

To me a franchise players is the player that is the overall best player on your team for multiple years in a row and the team is a 6 seed or higher in your conference.

I think Leonard can be a franchise player on a team like that. I don't think Leonard is going to be a player that makes a team an automatic contender on any team.
I don't really see Leonard as the night in and night out consensus best player on a championship team....
That said you really don't see one all-star teams in contention anymore. The rise of the super friends took care of that. I'm also not sure it was ever really as true as people seem to remember about having one player carry a team to championships. Most championship teams have had a perennial all star or two and/or a few guys who make a couple of all star games in their careers and are in the discussion nearly every year during their peaks.



If healthy Leonard is going to be an all star year in and year out for the next few years in the west. The issue is going to be that the spurs aren't going to have a supporting cast that can really be considered ready for the prime time. Green is shaping into a pretty decent starting 2, but You don't have a top level PG, or a top flight big man. Parker from statistical trends doesn't look like he is going to regain the form he had 20 months ago. Manu has plateaued and may be wised up to what this version of himself can do physically and only push that envelope on occasion but at this level that's a nice back-up 2 for a few minutes a night.... he's also getting older, and has always been somewhat fragile.

Diaw, he's always been a motivation mental aspect question mark. I don't really think he's done but I also don't know that many teams would be willing to guarantee that they can get him into Boris 2.0 mode. He's the player you take a flyer on at the right price and hope the locker-room/team culture drives him and that is only for another couple of seasons.

Splitter, he's been accused of being charmin soft since his arrival in SA.... he's never been a great athlete and has always seemed to be way to dependent on finesse. Personally I'm starting to think that the guy has back issues, it tends to be common in taller folks and every little lower body thing sets it off making you stiff and hesitant. If its in soft tissue its also incredibly hard to diagnose other than tenderness and inflammation. I don't think right now is the time but I want to see him dealt in the off season he's going to be 31 with alot of miles. Hes never been physically tough and depends on foot speed to get position.

I think Mills and Baynes are both with the team long term, That said Mills is a questionable starting PG. He makes a ton of sense as a back-up pg and 2 guard in the the right match-up and you expect him to be a big minute reserve. I'm starting to feel the same about Baynes. Not a starter in most match-ups but I'm cool with him getting 15 to 20 minutes subbing both big positions.

Back to Leonard, Can a team with Kahwi as their focal point make the play-offs year in and year out? Yes! That said be prepared for a whole bunch of 6th, 7th, and 8th seeds and first round exits without putting some other first tier talents around him.

I don't know where the spurs are going to get an athletic big-man with a bit of range, I'd also like to see a world where Parker is dealt for a chance to get a replacement PG. Joseph looks to have finally found his NBA game this year, but a back-court rotation of Green Joseph and Mills, is short on size when mills and Joseph are both out there and short on fire-power when its Joseph and Green when green is cold which is about a quarter of any given season.

[jermaine]

http://m.gamestop.com/Home/WeeklyAd

[hitmanyr2k]

Big NO. His ceiling is Pippen, max. And Pippen is no franchise player.
Sorry Kawhi; shooting 1-11 is not going to help!

Pippen was certainly a franchise player. It helped that he had point guard ball-handling and playmaking skills.

[wildchild]

No.. Have said it before he does not have the offensive firepower to be that guy.

Marc Gasol has the offensive firepower? He isn't a 20 ppg guy...Last season he averaged 14.6 ppg, this season 18.3 ppg, career 14 ppg, but he's the franchise player of the #2 team in the West.

Why Kawhi can't emerge as that type of franchise-leading?

[daslicer]

Marc Gasol has the offensive firepower? He isn't a 20 ppg guy...Last season he averaged 14.6 ppg, this season 18.3 ppg, career 14 ppg, but he's the franchise player of the #2 team in the West.

Why Kawhi can't emerge as that type of franchise-leading?

Hard to say Gasol is a franchise player. He's pretty good but I feel Memphis is a team that relies on both him and ZBO to carry them. If you put Marc on a team by himself and built around him I doubt they would be an elite team. The same could be said about ZBO. ZBO-Gasol together is a strong inside presence that's why Memphis has been pretty good for the last few years. They weren't that good until they paired Zbo with Gasol.

[wildchild]

Pippens like the 10x the player. Team would have 45 wins at this point if they had Pippen
Or if Kawhi would not have been injured half season.


True. Pippen was on another world compared to Kawhi.
On both sides of the ball.

And for those of you saying he's more like a Pippen....um what? Pippen was a legit #1 option and only played second fiddle because Jordan was the GOAT. If Kawhi was Pippen the Spurs would be the best team in the league.

Not really...
http://i.imgur.com/OAaRtJml.jpg


Kawhi's 4th year isn't a finished season yet, he has been plagued with injuries but he's getting better by the season.

[Plum Island]

Or if Kawhi would not have been injured half season.




Not really...
http://i.imgur.com/OAaRtJml.jpg


Kawhi's 4th year isn't a finished season yet, he has been plagued with injuries but he's getting better by the season.

Interesting stuff.
Maybe my memory is flawed, or biased towards eons past.

Thank you.

[CitizenDwayne]

I'm leaning toward no.

[Ditty]

No...nice complimentary piece but not a franchise guy.

[apalisoc_9]

Pop said he is..

Lol at all these Spurstalk losers saying otherwise.

[Plum Island]

Pop said he is..

Lol at all these Spurstalk losers saying otherwise.
You tell 'em, Big Dawg.

[Hoops Czar]

Pop said he is..

Lol at all these Spurstalk losers saying otherwise.

"Pop is one of the best coaches ever in terms of making sure he doesn't kill his players confidence..." " :lol of course he's going to say [that], [Leonard] is one of the most sensitive players in recent history.."

[TheGreatYacht]

"Pop is one of the best coaches ever in terms of making sure he doesn't kill his players confidence..." " :lol of course he's going to say [that], [Leonard] is one of the most sensitive players in recent history.."
He's leaving this thread quicker than when his dad "went to the store" when he found out his gf was having a bastard :lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

"Without Parker, we go nowhere" - Popovich
Apafaggot_9: Bullshit. He's only saying that to build up his sensitive self esteem

"Kawhi is the future." "...The big 1" - Popovich
Apafaggot_9: He's 100% right. How does ST have the balls to doubt him :madrun :cry

[mkurts]

Kawhi will be a great player ..... I hope he becomes the next Clyde Drexler

[Hoops Czar]

Kawhi will be a great player ..... I hope he becomes the next Clyde Drexler

Clyde Drexler could dribble a basketball.

[hitmanyr2k]

Or if Kawhi would not have been injured half season.

Not really...
http://i.imgur.com/OAaRtJml.jpg


Kawhi's 4th year isn't a finished season yet, he has been plagued with injuries but he's getting better by the season.

Pippen's 4th year is when he started ascending to greatness, especially in the playoffs where he raised his game enroute to the Bulls first title. I want to see Kawhi make that leap but I'm not sure he's going to get near 21.6ppg, 9 rebs, 6 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.1 blocks in the playoffs.

[wildchild]

I'm not sure he's going to get near 21.6ppg, 9 rebs, 6 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.1 blocks in the playoffs.
Well, something is sure...Kawhi isn't going to play 41.4 mpg like Scottie in those playoffs. He played 32 mpg last playoffs.

[wildchild]

Watching Pippen's game and stats, it's hard to believe people were saying here that he wasn't a franchise player. Unbelievable

[spurraider21]

Pop said he is..

Lol at all these Spurstalk losers saying otherwise.


:tdPop is really the main reason why this team can't even get a rhythm because he continues tinkering the lineup and playing mind games with Parker, Kawhi, Green, Splitter, and DiawS..

:lol

[apalisoc_9]

Those comments don't contradict each other.

Pop is the GOAT but he makes mistakes.

[AztecSpur]

BTW why was Kawhi pulled near the end of the game? 22 yr old trying to get his rhythm, so called future of the Spurs, and yankaroony.

[99 Problems]

True. Pippen was on another world compared to Kawhi.
On both sides of the ball.
I really hope he can get to that level on a night in night out basis.
That would be huge.

Cold reality is that Pippen pound for pound wasn't that far from MJ.

[daslicer]

Cold reality is that Pippen pound for pound wasn't that far from MJ.

Larry Bird once said during the 90's and I'm paraphrasing this quote "Pippen is the second best player in the league when he plays with MJ but without MJ he's the 5th or 6th best player in the league." That goes to show you how great Pippen was. Pippen also had a mean streak. I'll never forget when Mashburn dropped 50 on Pippen. Pippen took it personal and the next time they played dropped 36 and I remember him going at Mash from the beginning of the game. I'm not sure if Kawhi has that type of mentality but we'll see.

[spurraider21]

BTW why was Kawhi pulled near the end of the game? 22 yr old trying to get his rhythm, so called future of the Spurs, and yankaroony.
because he:

a) was having a horrible game on both ends... was getting beat down the court by Matt B:lolrnes on D, and couldn't hit a shot on the other end
b) due to his poor shooting, he started getting hesitant and didnt take some shots when he had opportunities

[Old School 44]

Can/Will he be the best player on a playoff team? Yes
Can/Will he be the best player full time? Yes

Will he win more titles than Duncan? Probably not
Winning multiple titles takes more than one person.
As great as Duncan is, he was fortunate to have the same core of great players around him for so long.
How many times have you seen three star players play together for their entire careers? Not to mention also playing for the same coach?
Will Kawhi have that same continuity around him for his career? Who will be his "Tony and Manu"?

[in2deep]

no he's not. his game does not translate to franchise player. He should concentrate on being a defensive specialist and a rebounding monster. But he will never lead his team on the offensive end.

defense and rebounds. as Pop said. You are not Kyle Korver. Just defense and rebounds and the game will come to you.

[eric365]

He never draws double team. He's not a franchise player in my book whatever impact he has on D

He's still young tho

[dabom]

He never draws double team. He's not a franchise player in my book whatever impact he has on D

He's still young tho

I don't even think ur a spurs fan. GTFO u bum.

[TheGreatYacht]

I don't even think ur a spurs fan. GTFO u bum.
LOL coming from the "Parker deserves an injury" guy

[TheGreatYacht]

BTW why was Kawhi pulled near the end of the game? 22 yr old trying to get his rhythm, so called future of the Spurs, and yankaroony.
Because he's injury prone. Pop let him play garbage minutes against Portland and he fucked his hand up.

Pop was never the guy to let his players stat pad anyways, tbh

[cd98]

Kawhi is a tier 1 defender. He has some good scoring instincts, but he isn't a great ball handler and his post up game is a work in progress. That said, in another two years, if he keeps working hard, he's a top 5 small forward. Given how important that position is now days, you could argue that he is a franchise player. That said, I think you have to average 18-20 points for a season, as young as he is, to be considered a franchise player.

[Chinook]

Being a great perimeter defender doesn't make someone a franchise player, because there's only so much impact they can have on a game. Elite defensive bigs can be foundations because they affect so much more of the game. However, even the most elite defensive bigs will struggle to be franchise players if they don't have a go-to offensive game. That's why Dwight Howard had a really short peak as a championship cornerstone.

[tp2021]

He never draws double team. He's not a franchise player in my book whatever impact he has on D

He's still young tho
He does draw doubleteams. He's just not very good at handling them yet. He usually gets trapped.

[daslicer]

No never will be a franchise player. Just calling it as I see it.

[Cloud786]

569934242668367872

Not surprised tbh. He's a terrible driver and doesn't have the explosiveness/athleticism to finish at the rim consistently.

[dabom]

569934242668367872

Not surprised tbh. He's a terrible driver and doesn't have the explosiveness/athleticism to finish at the rim consistently.
So he is a top 95 driver in the league. Still better than 300 other guys. :lol

[dabom]

And a top 10 player in the league. :lmao

[Hoops Czar]

569934242668367872

Not surprised tbh. He's a terrible driver and doesn't have the explosiveness/athleticism to finish at the rim consistently.

:lol That's company you don't want to be a part of.

That to go along with his 43% overall FG% and 33% from behind the arc. It's actually worst than I thought. Not surprising really, he's having his worst offensive season of his career and even less surprising, it comes with a drastic increase in his usage %. Hopefully, his offensive woes won't carry over to the defensive end.

[barbacoataco]

Earlier in the season I thought his shooting woes were due to his eye problems, but at this point he should be over that. I think he is pressing and trying to hard. I voted no on the poll, but I guess it depends on what is meant by franchise player. Is it a player who can lead a team to the playoffs, or to a championship? If the only franchise players today are Lebron, Davis, and Durant the answer for Leonard is he's not on that level. What about Blake Griffin or Harden?

As for Pippen I never thought of him as a franchise player. He was a great player but it helped that Jordan was next to him.

[Phillip]

:lmao kawhi nuthuggers like FkLA getting raped by fellow spurfans who know Kawhi has no superstar potential

[hitmanyr2k]

569934242668367872

Not surprised tbh. He's a terrible driver and doesn't have the explosiveness/athleticism to finish at the rim consistently.

I would throw some blame to Popovich for that. He doesn't try to give Kawhi any help to make it easier for him to score. Kawhi often gets the ball at a stand-still and his handle isn't good enough (yet) where he can break down the defense consistently. He rarely gets any screens or any plays run for him (like the guard-around) that would allow him to get some momentum on a hand-off where he could take one or two dribbles to get to the rim and score. I've seen this play run successfully with Duncan a handful of time only to never be seen again. This play should be a staple in the Spurs offense.

http://i.imgur.com/Lr9EhV4.gif

Kawhi also has a nice jumphook similar to Pippen but he's starting to find the defense focusing on him more in the post as that aspect of his game improves. He doesn't have the footwork or counters to the beat the doubleteams yet so how do you get the defense off him for easier buckets in the paint? How about calling some plays where he back cuts and flashes to the post for a quick catch and goes right up with the hook. Popovich is a great coach and all but he's not doing Kawhi any favors trying to ISO him all the time. Contrary to what people believe about Jordan and Pippen, a lot their offense came from moving without the ball in the triangle just as much as off the dribble.

http://i.imgur.com/0j683DD.gif

[SpurSwag]

I don't know why anyone believed/believes this, even during his FMVP run it seemed too good to be true and just more of a matter of circumstance than him establishing himself as a dominant NBA force. He's a great player, and really does deserve a Max, but he isn't going to be a guy that carries a team where he is the most talented player to 50 win seasons and deep playoff runs. However, next to the right guy, he will be a perfect #2 or probably ideally, #3 option. As much as I hate the clippers, I've always felt that his true impact would be on their team where he'd be surrounded by 2 better scorers, but would still be given every chance he wanted to score about 20 a game.

[SpurSwag]

What I really don't like is that he has really fallen in love with his jump shot, every time the ball gets swung to him he pretty much always goes up with it, and his "post game" that he's apparently so good pretty much results in a midrange jump shot 95% of the time. I really miss those hook shots in the lane and in general just his tougher takes, hopefully he gets back to that aggression

[FkLA]

I would throw some blame to Popovich for that. He doesn't try to give Kawhi any help to make it easier for him to score. Kawhi often gets the ball at a stand-still and his handle isn't good enough (yet) where he can break down the defense consistently. He rarely gets any screens or any plays run for him (like the guard-around) that would allow him to get some momentum on a hand-off where he could take one or two dribbles to get to the rim and score. I've seen this play run successfully with Duncan a handful of time only to never be seen again. This play should be a staple in the Spurs offense.

http://i.imgur.com/Lr9EhV4.gif

Kawhi also has a nice jumphook similar to Pippen but he's starting to find the defense focusing on him more in the post as that aspect of his game improves. He doesn't have the footwork or counters to the beat the doubleteams yet so how do you get the defense off him for easier buckets in the paint? How about calling some plays where he back cuts and flashes to the post for a quick catch and goes right up with the hook. Popovich is a great coach and all but he's not doing Kawhi any favors trying to ISO him all the time. Contrary to what people believe about Jordan and Pippen, a lot their offense came from moving without the ball in the triangle just as much as off the dribble.

http://i.imgur.com/0j683DD.gif

Great post. :tu

What do you think of the overall Pippen comparison? Obviously he's 23 and not prime Pippen at this early stage, but as far as his long-term potential goes.

[TheGreatYacht]

569934242668367872

Not surprised tbh. He's a terrible driver and doesn't have the explosiveness/athleticism to finish at the rim consistently.
Shit. Good find :tu

Bad sign for someone who can't shoot smh

[mkurts]

Clyde Drexler could dribble a basketball.

True.... Kawhi is still a work in progress, but despite my hopes I don't think he will ever be close to 'The Glide'

[eric365]

I don't even think ur a spurs fan. GTFO u bum.

Everyone draws double team when they are driving to the basket. Kawhi included.

But teams don't game plan against him and don't send double team early when he just got the ball.
That's what I meant.

And no need to insult.

[dabom]

Everyone draws double team when they are driving to the basket. Kawhi included.

But teams don't game plan against him and don't send double team early when he just got the ball.
That's what I meant.

And no need to insult.

I can't believe you doubled down an the same shit take. :lmao

[eric365]

I can't believe you doubled down an the same shit take. :lmao

OK whatever.

[Chinook]

So he is a top 95 driver in the league. Still better than 300 other guys. :lol

Is that a joke? Or are you demonstrating your lack of understanding of statistics once again.

That list is not the 95-100 best drivers. It's six players out of the 100 who drive the most that have the worst percentage on drives.

Essentially, Kawhi drives way too much for not being good at it. That's what that tweet is implying.

[dabom]

Is that a joke? Or are you demonstrating your lack of understanding of statistics once again.

That list is not the 95-100 best drivers. It's six players out of the 100 who drive the most that have the worst percentage on drives.

Essentially, Kawhi drives way too much for not being good at it. That's what that tweet is implying.

You might be right but show me what statistic it is with a link and there better not be 300 worse drivers than him in there or else I'm right.
And even still I could careless about some tiny specs about kawhi's game as long as it comes with the total package you faggot.

[TheGreatYacht]

Is that a joke? Or are you demonstrating your lack of understanding of statistics once again.

That list is not the 95-100 best drivers. It's six players out of the 100 who drive the most that have the worst percentage on drives.

Essentially, Kawhi drives way too much for not being good at it. That's what that tweet is implying.
Dabom :lmao

[Chinook]

You might be right but show me what statistic it is with a link and there better not be 300 worse drivers than him in there or else I'm right.

Do you really think that 300 players in the league shoot worse than 28 percent on drives? No. There are players who probalby shoot worse, but they also don't drive a lot because they know they're not good at it. There are also players who probably have great percentages but whose success is based on them being very selective with their drives.


And even still I could careless about some tiny specs about kawhi's game as long as it comes with the total package you faggot.

:lol another loser take from you. "Show me a stat where I'm wrong, but I don't even care that I am. Stats suck unless they agree with me." Such an idiotic tantrum out of you. No one was saying that Kawhi sucks, or that he doesn't bring an impactful overall package (or even that he is one of the top two players on the team when he has his act together). But his shot selection has been god awful this season, and it's a major issue with the offense. The fact that he drives so much when he one of the worst in the league at it is just proof of that point.

Again, though, you rarely have substantive takes. You usually just 'know what you see.' It's not surprising that you'd be taken out of you breadth by a tweet.

[hater]

Is that a joke? Or are you demonstrating your lack of understanding of statistics once again.

That list is not the 95-100 best drivers. It's six players out of the 100 who drive the most that have the worst percentage on drives.

Essentially, Kawhi drives way too much for not being good at it. That's what that tweet is implying.

CROFL

[BatManu20]

:lol @ anyone who thinks he's not getting the max.

[DMC]

:lol You for thinking one half of a home game against the Kings nullifies a year of shittiness.

[dabom]

:lol You for thinking one half of a home game against the Kings nullifies a year of shittiness.

FMVP and 1b for the last three years in the playoffs. STFU faggot. :lmao

[DMC]

Kawhi is a good player, solid. He's not "it" though. There aren't many, so don't get upset over "it".

[dabom]

FMVP and 1b for the last three years in the playoffs. STFU faggot. :lmao

[KL2]

Is that a joke? Or are you demonstrating your lack of understanding of statistics once again.

That list is not the 95-100 best drivers. It's six players out of the 100 who drive the most that have the worst percentage on drives.

Essentially, Kawhi drives way too much for not being good at it. That's what that tweet is implying.

That is not true though, anyone that has actually watched the game, remembered what happened, can tell you that is BS.

-Leonard has been injured all year long, he's been missing point blank layups left and right, even when they weren't contested, shots he is now starting to make and has always made. It's crazy how people forget that, I'm not surprised his shot % is so low. If he were actually contested and forced into missing the shot, I'd agree, but many of those shots weren't.

-Leonard has been playing around lottery talent much of the season, ignore the names and actually look at how bad most of the Spurs have been this year. No Splitter/Mills/Belli left Ayres-Daye-Diaw-Baynes-Parker-Bonner, every single one of those guys at that time were playing like shit. Baynes and Diaw have recently started playing much better, Parker has just been horrible all year long. Green/TD/Leonard have been consistent all season long.

-Spurs were really shooting like shit from 3 to start off the season, Daye/Anderson/Cojo/Diaw everyone was bricking Leonard's assists for 3's and affecting spacing, affecting his drives.

-Spurs lack of chemistry, learning to play with Leonard has also affected his drives. The Spurs' bigs almost always clog the paint on failed drives, poor spacing, they draw in their defender and it neutralizes Leonard, are you really going to blame that on Leonard? Baynes is probably the biggest culprit (even Bonner has been pretty bad), but he's inexperienced, lacks chemistry.


All this leads to a low % in drives.

[wildchild]

:lol @ anyone who thinks he's not getting the max.

This thread was made during the worst Kawhi's shooting slump of his NBA career and the worst Spurs rodeo trip in years...

Obviously the fans were extremely frustrated and that's why they were voting negatively.

But if the thread would have made after his return from hand injury when he was playing great, the result would probably have been very different.

It's all about context.

[BatManu20]

:lol You for thinking one half of a home game against the Kings nullifies a year of shittiness.

Not what I said. Try and keep up.

[wildchild]

:lol You for thinking one half of a home game against the Kings nullifies a year of shittiness.

Not sure if this is selective memory or just an intentional attempt to hide his good games in the season.

Kawhi was dealing with a shooting slump during five games in last rodeo road trip but he was playing really good in December, January and the first week of February.

In his last 10 games before the rodeo trip:
564477737834786816

Sure, A YEAR of shittiness...

[Chinook]

That is not true though, anyone that has actually watched the game, remembered what happened, can tell you that is BS.

I'm really happy for your points, and I'ma let you finish, but there are three issues:

First, the post you quoted was explaining what a tweet said. Refuting the tweet doesn't in anyway negate the fact that that was what the tweet said.

Second, no number of excuses/explanations for Leonard's poor driving rate. The fact is, he hasn't been very efficient in that regard.

Finally, let's just go over some of your points:


-Leonard has been injured all year long, he's been missing point blank layups left and right, even when they weren't contested, shots he is now starting to make and has always made. It's crazy how people forget that, I'm not surprised his shot % is so low. If he were actually contested and forced into missing the shot, I'd agree, but many of those shots weren't.

Hurt Kawhi is just this season's Kawhi. While he may be dealing with issues, he is what he is this season. If he's too hurt to make open layups, he shouldn't be taking them. I do think it's disingenuous to only mention his injury when he's being criticized, though.


Leonard has been playing around lottery talent much of the season, ignore the names and actually look at how bad most of the Spurs have been this year. No Splitter/Mills/Belli left Ayres-Daye-Diaw-Baynes-Parker-Bonner, every single one of those guys at that time were playing like shit. Baynes and Diaw have recently started playing much better, Parker has just been horrible all year long. Green/TD/Leonard have been consistent all season long.

How can you blame everyone else for Kawhi but not see that he's also a reason why everyone else is out of rhythm? I agree he's had games where he's been unreal, but he's also had games where he's just straight broken the offense. I certainly don't think Leonard has been horrible overall, but he also hasn't been consistent in his offensive impact.


Spurs were really shooting like shit from 3 to start off the season, Daye/Anderson/Cojo/Diaw everyone was bricking Leonard's assists for 3's and affecting spacing, affecting his drives.

I feel like I'd need to see that substantiated a bit more. Parker started off the season unreal from three, and we all know about what Danny was doing. I think Leonard had issues with spacing, but they weren't just all on his teammates.


-Spurs lack of chemistry, learning to play with Leonard has also affected his drives. The Spurs' bigs almost always clog the paint on failed drives, poor spacing, they draw in their defender and it neutralizes Leonard, are you really going to blame that on Leonard? Baynes is probably the biggest culprit (even Bonner has been pretty bad), but he's inexperienced, lacks chemistry.

As I touched on above, Leonard has issues with spacing that aren't his teammates' faults. Of course his inside game is weak with two bigs; he's in their territory. It's hard for a three to post up with two inside bigs next to him. He's also not adept at running the PnR, so there usually isn't a big who is away from the paint to set a screen. Also, Leonard tends to drive after pausing, which allows defenders to get back into position.

Full disclosure: I haven't yet watched tonight's game. But from what I've seen from previous games, Kawhi is scoring better now that he's stopped trying to be an offensive focal point. His drives are better because he's just getting the ball and going. His post ups are better because he's only really getting the ball when he has a mismatch. His spot-up shots are better because he's being more selective. It's not the team's job to learn how to incorporate Kawhi's Melo-lite style into their scheme. It's Kawhi's job to learn how to be more efficient and assertive within the offense. Sure, it takes adjustments from everyone, but the biggest culprit is definitely shot selection.

[DMC]

Not sure if this is selective memory or just an intentional attempt to hide his good games in the season.

Kawhi was dealing with a shooting slump during five games in last rodeo road trip but he was playing really good in December, January and the first week of February.

In his last 10 games before the rodeo trip:
564477737834786816

Sure, A YEAR of shittiness...
Not just talking about Leonard, player fan.

[DMC]

I'm really happy for your points, and I'ma let you finish, but there are three issues:

First, the post you quoted was explaining what a tweet said. Refuting the tweet doesn't in anyway negate the fact that that was what the tweet said.

Second, no number of excuses/explanations for Leonard's poor driving rate. The fact is, he hasn't been very efficient in that regard.

Finally, let's just go over some of your points:



Hurt Kawhi is just this season's Kawhi. While he may be dealing with issues, he is what he is this season. If he's too hurt to make open layups, he shouldn't be taking them. I do think it's disingenuous to only mention his injury when he's being criticized, though.



How can you blame everyone else for Kawhi but not see that he's also a reason why everyone else is out of rhythm? I agree he's had games where he's been unreal, but he's also had games where he's just straight broken the offense. I certainly don't think Leonard has been horrible overall, but he also hasn't been consistent in his offensive impact.



I feel like I'd need to see that substantiated a bit more. Parker started off the season unreal from three, and we all know about what Danny was doing. I think Leonard had issues with spacing, but they weren't just all on his teammates.



As I touched on above, Leonard has issues with spacing that aren't his teammates' faults. Of course his inside game is weak with two bigs; he's in their territory. It's hard for a three to post up with two inside bigs next to him. He's also not adept at running the PnR, so there usually isn't a big who is away from the paint to set a screen. Also, Leonard tends to drive after pausing, which allows defenders to get back into position.

Full disclosure: I haven't yet watched tonight's game. But from what I've seen from previous games, Kawhi is scoring better now that he's stopped trying to be an offensive focal point. His drives are better because he's just getting the ball and going. His post ups are better because he's only really getting the ball when he has a mismatch. His spot-up shots are better because he's being more selective. It's not the team's job to learn how to incorporate Kawhi's Melo-lite style into their scheme. It's Kawhi's job to learn how to be more efficient and assertive within the offense. Sure, it takes adjustments from everyone, but the biggest culprit is definitely shot selection.

Leonard does best when he moves without the ball and catches on the baseline, or when he creates offense from his defense. He tried a few times tonight to force action on offense and it didn't look good or end well, but he soon changed his approach but not his aggression, and despite all the silly turnovers from crazy bailout passes from others, did well.

[wildchild]

Not just talking about Leonard, player fan.

Since this thread is about Leonard and not the team..., Kawhi hater.

[DMC]

Since this thread is about Leonard and not the team..., Kawhi hater.

The league is full of guys who can go off on the Kings. Put your cock back in your drawers.

[wildchild]

The league is full of guys who can go off on the Kings.

Tonight game against the Kings is his only one good game in A YEAR...?


Put your cock back in your drawers.
Again, not sure...Not sure why you're interested in my cock or where is...

[tim_duncan_fan]

For the record, he's still not a franchise player. He probably won't lead us to conference finals and Finals year after year.

But I am GLAD he is on our team.

But we're gonna need a bigger piece than he is to get back to championship level once Tim is gone.

[spurraider21]

maybe
called it

[dabom]

For the record, he's still not a franchise player. He probably won't lead us to conference finals and Finals year after year.

But I am GLAD he is on our team.

But we're gonna need a bigger piece than he is to get back to championship level once Tim is gone.

Kawhi will be the franchise and we will win rings. Bet on it.

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

I voted yes but he won't be like a typical best player on a playoff team. He'll be like Duncan the last 2 years or something; elite, but you can't just give him the ball and expect him to take over a series.

[MateoNeygro]

Depends on what that means. Brandon Jennings was Milwaukee's franchise player for awhile.

If you mean MVP candidate that can make a team a contender solely by playing there ala Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, etc....hell no. Even prime Kobe couldn't do that. I love Leonard, but he is Shawn Marion at best imo. No shame in that

Well said. I love Kawhi but he is not a number 1 guy. He's exactly what Leetonidas said. A Shawn Marion type. They may not play exactly alike but I believe the production will be about the same.

[pgardn]

Kawhi will be the franchise and we will win rings. Bet on it.

So who replaces Duncan and Manu on these multi ring teams?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

So who replaces Duncan and Manu on these multi ring teams?
:cry Kawhi does :cry

:lol

[wildchild]

A Shawn Marion type.

Kawhi is already a better player than Marion was. Just imagine his stats playing for those Suns of D'Antoni, something like 22 ppg 10 rpg 40mpg...and 0 rings of course.

[wildchild]

For the record, he's still not a franchise player. He probably won't lead us to conference finals and Finals year after year.

This is an unrealistic expectation that people have of franchise players...Only Tim, Kobe and Lebron did it the last 15 years.

There are unique supernova players, the most talented players of their generation like Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Tim, and there are franchise players.

For the record, Gervin was a franchise player, Nash, Barkley, Webber, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, too.
You can't say they weren't great franchise players just because they didn't win a ring.



But we're gonna need a bigger piece than he is to get back to championship level once Tim is gone.

I can't see Lebron, Durant or even Aldridge playing here. Like said before, Kawhi'll be the franchise player the Spurs can get.

[Leetonidas]

Kawhi is already a better player than Marion was. Just imagine his stats playing for those Suns of D'Antoni, something like 22 ppg 10 rpg 40mpg...and 0 rings of course.

He really isn't yet imo, Marion was a 21/12/3/2/1 kinda guy in his prime, we can hope Leonard gets to those numbers in the future. But to claim he is already better than prime Matrix is just silly. I will say that Marion often got shut down in the playoffs and we've already seen Leonard go ballistic on the biggest stage so the mental aspect is where we will see separation tbh

[Chinook]

Even if Kawhi is better than Prime Marion, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't have the same role on a team as Matrix did. It simply means he could be even more productive in that role. It seems clear to me is that both Kawhi and the team feel more comfortable when he plays a Marion role. If folks think Kawhi will be a 20-10 guy doing that, why do you want his role to change at all? Why not just stick with that and find someone else to drive and kick and to score down low?

[MateoNeygro]

Kawhi is already a better player than Marion was. Just imagine his stats playing for those Suns of D'Antoni, something like 22 ppg 10 rpg 40mpg...and 0 rings of course.

That's what if. They are different players yes, I'm just saying as far as production goes regardless of team. His ceiling is right around Shawn Marion type numbers. Just my opinion.

[MateoNeygro]

Good thread though. Actually basketball talk. Not name calling and bullshit.

[Horse]

Let's not forget he improves every season and effects the defensive side of the ball like no one else in the league. So I can't ever see him scoring 30 a game but if hardon can play no D and get mvp consideration why can't kawhi shut players down and cause havoc in the passing lanes and get some love for it.

[wildchild]

He really isn't yet imo, Marion was a 21/12/3/2/1 kinda guy in his prime, we can hope Leonard gets to those numbers in the future. But to claim he is already better than prime Matrix is just silly.

Well, like said before, it's all about context.
Marion averaged those numbers playing more than 40mpg for a run & gun team...A lot of offensive possessions and more playing time necessarily mean get more opportunities to score more points.
Considering the different types of offenses, we can't compare the players using their ppg stats but we can evaluate their impact on their teams and the game.
Kawhi's impact is bigger -and more successful- than Marion's influence on his team.

[KL2]

I'm really happy for your points, and I'ma let you finish, but there are three issues:

First, the post you quoted was explaining what a tweet said. Refuting the tweet doesn't in anyway negate the fact that that was what the tweet said.

Second, no number of excuses/explanations for Leonard's poor driving rate. The fact is, he hasn't been very efficient in that regard.

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.



Finally, let's just go over some of your points:



Hurt Kawhi is just this season's Kawhi. While he may be dealing with issues, he is what he is this season. If he's too hurt to make open layups, he shouldn't be taking them. I do think it's disingenuous to only mention his injury when he's being criticized, though.


He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.


How can you blame everyone else for Kawhi but not see that he's also a reason why everyone else is out of rhythm? I agree he's had games where he's been unreal, but he's also had games where he's just straight broken the offense. I certainly don't think Leonard has been horrible overall, but he also hasn't been consistent in his offensive impact.


Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process, much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear out. Still, his teammates continue to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.




I feel like I'd need to see that substantiated a bit more. Parker started off the season unreal from three, and we all know about what Danny was doing. I think Leonard had issues with spacing, but they weren't just all on his teammates.


As I touched on above, Leonard has issues with spacing that aren't his teammates' faults. Of course his inside game is weak with two bigs; he's in their territory. It's hard for a three to post up with two inside bigs next to him. He's also not adept at running the PnR, so there usually isn't a big who is away from the paint to set a screen. Also, Leonard tends to drive after pausing, which allows defenders to get back into position.


They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

It has gotten better as the year has progressed, as his teammates have simply gotten better.


Injury to both him and his teammates, lack of chemistry from injury, Spurs trying to learn to play around Leonard, all those factor into his low driving %. It's not like he's missing these shots lately though, just jumpers.

I don't understand why Pop doesn't put him in more PandR, he's a very underrated passer. He's had some great passing games this year which weren't flukes. Especially in the beginning of the year, he would've been averaging something like 5 apg if Diaw, Anderson, Daye, Belli, etc. had been knocking down those wide open 3's. From the small sample size I've seen, he's great at it.


Btw I think the pause you're referring to is him creating space through bodily contact, he throws his body into the defender, knocks them off balance neutralizing their shot blocking ability, creates space for an easy layup.

[dabom]

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.




He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.



Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process, much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear out. Still, his teammates continue to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.




They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

It has gotten better as the year has progressed, as his teammates have simply gotten better.


Injury to both him and his teammates, lack of chemistry from injury, Spurs trying to learn to play around Leonard, all those factor into his low driving %. It's not like he's missing these shots lately though, just jumpers.

I don't understand why Pop doesn't put him in more PandR, he's a very underrated passer. He's had some great passing games this year which weren't flukes. Especially in the beginning of the year, he would've been averaging something like 5 apg if Diaw, Anderson, Daye, Belli, etc. had been knocking down those wide open 3's. From the small sample size I've seen, he's great at it.


Btw I think the pause you're referring to is him creating space through bodily contact, he throws his body into the defender, knocks them off balance neutralizing their shot blocking ability, creates space for an easy layup.

Maybe next year he develops his PnR game. :worthy: I can already hear. "o no, pop stop giving kawhi PnRs he suxs" :lmao

[Chinook]

Each time he's come back from injury he's struggled making easy shots, point blank shots. He's had an eye injury and a broken hand, the effects lingering for months, you don't just go back to the player you were before the injury. It takes time to get used to the speed of the game, get your shot mechanics back down (especially after you haven't used your hand for a month), get your handles, conditioning, etc. everything feels really weird when you come back.

For the most part, I agree, but I do think you missed his return from injury last season. Dude had no problem finding his game then.


He shouldn't be taking layups so he should stick to jump shots? Leonard needs to regain his rhythm ( from injury), he's not missing layups because a defender is forcing him into missing them, he's missing them because he's missing them, the chances or him making those shots are extremely high. He's made them in years past, still has been making them when he's been healthy this year.

Again, I find it disingenuous that he's only healthy when he plays well. Regardless, no, Kawhi shouldn't more jumpers if he can't score on drives. He should just not shoot as much in general.


Part of it is lack of chemistry, it's a learning process (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/#), much of these drives will fail because of this, that alone will affect his shooting %. Everybody should know by now though, when you see Leonard in the paint or driving, clear (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/#) out. Still, his teammates continue (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/#) to make the same mistake of crowding him, drawing their defenders into him, forcing Leonard into low % shots. Those mistakes fall on Leonard's teammates.

They are his teammates fault when they actually run towards Leonard, crowd him. I think his teammates think they're helping, but the reality is they're hurting. Bonner, Duncan, Baynes, etc. sometimes they're nowhere near him in the paint and they'll run towards him, it neutralizes Leonard, happens all the time.

The bolded part to me represents where I find fault in your reasoning. The Spurs play two bigs. In those cases, them "clearing out" does next to nothing, because their men can sag off them. This is the main reason why the Heat had to move toward floor-spacing bigs. The Spurs simply will not do that for Kawhi. And they shouldn't. That move sacrifices defense and rebounding, which are critical to the team's success. The only way for insides bigs to affect a play is to be inside: hanging around for a board or setting a screen. Of course they're going to get into the paint when Kawhi is at the elbow or short corner. They're doing their jobs on offense.

Again, you make it sound like everyone needs to figure out how to get Kawhi touches, and that completely takes Leonard's burden away. Kawhi has to learn how to play with two inside bigs. That means not constantly posting up when he doesn't have a mismatch. That means not driving without the proper movement to open a lane. That means not shooting a three any team he touches the bad beyond the arc. Those things are just poor shot selection, regardless of teammates. The Spurs' offense was dynamic without Kawhi doing his Melo impression, so why on Earth should it grind to a halt for him this season?

Instead, the Spurs need to figure out how to get Leonard good touches. I've said that countless times. A simple 1/3 PnR would do wonders for giving Leonard a mismatch. The Lebron Heat and OKC did it all the time last season. Or curl plays to give him open mid-range shots. Or even the Loop, which would give him the ball at the elbow with a ton of movement and a trailing defender. These are plays that the team needs to add to their arsenal. Simply telling Kawhi to shoot whenever he has the ball is irresponsible.

I don't think we're far apart on this, really. I agree the Spurs aren't doing everything they need to for Kawhi to be at his best. But I also don't think Kawhi's doing everything he needs to be the best he can be in the role allotted for him.

[apalisoc_9]

Regardless of who you are, post ups should always be selective. It's pops call though as weve seen him post up bigger players numerous times this year after the timeout or half time. My guess, its a self development things.

But advocating less shots for a player who barely shots over 12 times is funny and ridiculous.

[dabom]

Regardless of who you are, post ups should always be selective. It's pops call though as weve seen him post up bigger players numerous times this year after the timeout or half time. My guess, its a self development things.

But advocating less shots for a player who barely shots over 12 times is funny and ridiculous.

:lmao enriquetards. cleveland fans :lmao

[Aztecfan03]

Kobe shot a record worrst 1-14 in 2013 vs the Spurs (thanks to Danny Green's D ), but he's a franchise player .. : :lol

Does it really seem like that long ago to you? It was this season.

[milkyway21]

Does it really seem like that long ago to you? It was this season.
Yeah at the start of 2014-15 season : Nov 2014.
Fixed.

[TrainOfThought5]

Some all time terrible takes here. Will bump again after the playoffs.

[100%duncan]

Lol poops czar

[still.focused]

Basing Kawhis output on numbers doesnt get you the whole picture
We dont know because what hes capable of on offense because hes literally the 4th option, playing with 3 HOFs will do that
Jimmy Butler never becomes Jimmy Butler if DRose never gets injured
Defensively there isnt a stat for how much of a disturbance he causes to another team but it definitely affects the game
This is the reason hes prolly gonna get snubbed for DPOY
His number are easily eclipse by his impact but we cant depend on the media to watch all the Spurs games

[TampaDude]

Folks, when Timmy retires, Kawhi IS going to be a franchise player...OURS.

[SASdynasty!]

Kawhi is a franchise/max player. Pay the man.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Can we get a lotto pick for him?

We ARE going to be bad next year (and this year lol) and probably the next 2-3 years.

Question is, can we stack and properly use a bunch of early picks?


Realistically, what could we get for Kawhi?

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average for a certain starting guard

[dabom]

Top 10 player in the game. NVM lets ride or die with porker. :lmao

[BatManu20]

Kawhi's 23 and nowhere near his prime.. and just won DPOY... he's shown flashes of what he's capable of, he just needs time to put it all together. Every great player does.

We shouldn't be relying on a 23 year old to lead us on both sides of the ball anyways. We should be relying on our MAX player PG who's been there before multiple times, and that's the truth.

[wildchild]

We should be relying on our MAX player PG who's been there before multiple times, and that's the truth.

Like he did in last WCF and Finals?.
It seems after last playoffs and this season that we can win without Tony, but we can't win without Kawhi playing a great level.

[midnightpulp]

:lol People already melting down over one bad game from Kawhi (yeah, he didn't shoot well last game, but still impacted the game).

I remember Duncan going 3-14 for 9 points in '01 against the Lakers. It happens. However, Kawhi is going to need another creator alongside of him to max his offensive potential. Prime Parker could've been that player, but he's obviously done, and with no guards in the starting lineup that can take pressure off Kawhi, he's going to have a difficult time being a consistent 20-25ppg scorer. Durant, Lebron, and all the other top wings in the league are paired up with another dynamic guard.

That said, Kawhi deserves blame tonight, but he's still a star player and a max player.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Kawhi is a max player. At this point he is not a franchise player as he does not have the offensive ability to take over games on both sides of the court. Right now his liability is that he cannot dribble well enough in tight spaces. He also lacks the explosiveness to get to the rim if lane is crowded. This is why Pop still goes to Manu or Parker at end of games because they can dribble penetrate and either finish or make the pass to short corner to opposite side.

[RD2191]

Kawhi is a max player. At this point he is not a franchise player as he does not have the offensive ability to take over games on both sides of the court. Right now his liability is that he cannot dribble well enough in tight spaces. He also lacks the explosiveness to get to the rim if lane is crowded. This is why Pop still goes to Manu or Parker at end of games because they can dribble penetrate and either finish or make the pass to short corner to opposite side.
crofl

[Kool Bob Love]

https://bendavidwong.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/screen-shot-2013-06-22-at-7-03-40-pm.png

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average for a certain starting guard

[ChumpDumper]

rob in self quoting deflection mode.

Looks like the answer is "not quite yet."

Here's hoping though; he's going to be paid like one regardless.

[RD2191]

rob in self quoting deflection mode.

Looks like the answer is "not quite yet."

Here's hoping though; he's going to be paid like one regardless.
Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

[dabom]

rob in self quoting deflection mode.

Looks like the answer is "not quite yet."

Here's hoping though; he's going to be paid like one regardless.

What do you think about Tony's contract though and the future of the spurs in general?

[TheGreatYacht]

https://bendavidwong.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/screen-shot-2013-06-22-at-7-03-40-pm.png
:lmao

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

[ChumpDumper]

Deflection krew avoiding the topic.

It's OK guys, he had a bad game.

[TheGreatYacht]

https://bendavidwong.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/screen-shot-2013-06-22-at-7-03-40-pm.png

[dabom]

Deflection krew avoiding the topic.

It's OK guys, he had a bad game.

Too much heat?

[ChumpDumper]

Too much heat?For your krew?

Looks like it.

[TheGreatYacht]

Too much heat?
What happened to Apolisoc, tbh?

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average


If this guy is getting 12.5 mil this season then sure, Kawhi deserves the max.

[dabom]

What happened to Apolisoc, tbh?

Sleep maybe? I don't know.

[dabom]

For your krew?

Looks like it.

That's what I though.

[TheGreatYacht]

Sleep maybe? I don't know.
Did you tuck him in?

[wildchild]

Rob...don't feed these ugly haters.

You remember what they said after the rodeo trip and Kawhi's shooting slump?? Well, Kawhi made them eat their words.

And he'll do it again.

[ChumpDumper]

lol rob's trying to modify his deflections

[jbspurs]

5 Good games vs 1 bad game...

[ChumpDumper]

That's what I though.How does one "though"?

[RD2191]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

series average


If this guy is getting 12.5 mil this season then sure, Kawhi deserves the max.

[ChumpDumper]

Rob in full spam mode now.

Missing his applesauce.

[timtonymanu]

Yep, bad game and I really shit on him for it.

But he's the least of this team's problems right now. The team is too out of sync.

[dabom]

Did you tuck him in?

I tucked your mom in though.

[RD2191]

Rob in full spam mode now.

Missing his applesauce.
Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

u mad bro?

[dabom]

How does one "though"?

IDK anymore.

[ChumpDumper]

Guess who?


30 mpg
4-12 shooting average
4 assist as starting PG
.500 from the free throw line
1.2 turnovers per game
9.2 ppg
.322 fg%

u mad bro?You're the one in full spam deflection mode, bro. Your anger is spammed all over this board.

Now repeat that post because you are angry.

[TheGreatYacht]

I tucked your mom in though.
Before or after you gave Apo a happy ending?

[ChumpDumper]

IDK anymore.OK. Never saw it used as a verb.

[dabom]

Before or after you gave Apo a happy ending?

Right after I cucked your dad.

[TheGreatYacht]

Right after I cucked your dad.
What did you do with my dad?

[dabom]

What did you do with my dad?

I fucked your mom infront of your dad.

[TheGreatYacht]

I fucked your mom infront of your dad.
How did you do that when you just said you're watching Apolisoc sleep?

[Keepin' it real]

Franchise player or not ... ?

After the 1st half of game 7 ... no.

[vander]

robdiaz stuff

have fun rooting for that Kawhi led team tbh... I recommend vodka

[loveforthegame]

Leonard might be rethinking offer sheets.

Pop wasting him as a fucking screener. :pctoss

He made a few mistakes and gets pulled for it while others get to keep playing. Um ok.

[kaji157]

I say it when he was killing it and i say it now, Leonard is by no means a franchise players.

[KL2]

Leonard got crowded all series long, only getting desperation shots when they stalled the offense.

Pop has nobody to blame but himself, should've known to run the offense through KY and not Parker in the RS, he clearly lacked the experience. Ky should join a better franchise, covering Belli+Parker+Splitters defensive mistakes all season long while going ignored on offense.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I want Gobert!

[PingPong]

He is a franchise player... for the Bucks. Wait, they have Okaketupwotatombhpuh already. That greek freak probably has higher ceiling than Kawhi, tbh

[TXstbobcat]

He is the Defensive POY and will bounce back from this series.

[dabom]

I agree. I only see 5 players that I consider franchise and only like 3 can translate it to the playoffs. None of those players were as good as kawhi at 23 tbh. Who knows what kawhi will be at 28 tbh. 5 fucking years from now. :lmao
I swear all these fucking losers. :lmao


Clown resident per par. I'm going to bump this shit after we get six faggot. Add to the stupid shit hoopfaggot says.


Pop said he is..

Lol at all these Spurstalk losers saying otherwise.

[dabom]

Just love bumping these old threads. :lmao

[dabom]

Maybe next year he develops his PnR game. :worthy: I can already hear. "o no, pop stop giving kawhi PnRs he suxs" :lmao
:lol

[bic50]

Wow some of these posts are pretty pathetic. Kawhi making some of these people look stupid this season so far.

[313]

lol missing games due to a tummy ache

[tholdren]

The Spurs need to do whatever it takes to keep Leonard while also doing whatever they can to get someone better than Leonard. Simple as that.

[bic50]

Just like these 2 frauds up here ^^

[tholdren]

Fraud

[bic50]

Fake fans