Tsa

[m>s]

Redpill me on this possible upcoming attempt to regulate ammunition through the EPA

[TheSanityAnnex]

Ammo is already regulated by the EPA in certain states. I'm enjoying lead ban regs in CA now. Lead ban is the end game, they'll ban everything before it first. Lead is an easy ban after. M855 is on the verge. Probably doesn't concern you since you shoot a pile of shit AK variant.

Ammo is the middle game. Price people out they won't shoot. Don't shoot why have a firearm.


Gun control is a joke. It's done nothing but fuel sales. Ammo and ways it's limited/banned is a different story.

[Winehole23]

Do tell. The rest of us might not be on the same page.

[The Reckoning]

lead kills the environment

[m>s]

It'll be struck down as unconstitutional by a judge just like his amnesty was. I hear that he's cutrently ignoring the judge and hasn't stopped processing illegals. There is talk of a military coup coming. Notice Netanyahu coming and meeting with congress and not acknowledging the chimp? Giuliani saying he's a communist, Scott walker questioning his religion? HIs time is about up.

[m>s]

W all know what the constitution calls for in the event of treason!! Let's get the ball rolling, and do it the right way through the court system. Whoooo !!!

[m>s]

These mofos have taken a big dump on our country for far too long, but there is a remedy for treason!!!

[m>s]

Can a president pardon himself before leaving office?

[boutons_deux]

Gun control is a joke.

no gun control is a national public health disaster, not that you duped, gullible gun fellators give a shit about dead humans, and give less of a shit about lead-poisoned wildlife.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Do tell. The rest of us might not be on the same page.
What do you want to know?

[TheSanityAnnex]

no gun control is a national public health disaster, not that you duped, gullible gun fellators give a shit.
Besides the Hughes amendment in the 1986 FOPA, name me a single gun control measure that has not INCREASED gun sales.

[boutons_deux]

Besides the Hughes amendment in the 1986 FOPA, name me a single gun control measure that has not INCREASED gun sales.

the "gun control" measures were jokes, not serious, and even less seriously enforced.

[TheSanityAnnex]

the "gun control" measures were jokes, not serious, and even less seriously enforced.
So you agree gun control is a joke.

[boutons_deux]

So you agree gun control is a joke.

:lol I say jokey, unserious gun control (esp a city-only leve) is a joke.

Serious gun control is federal only, financed 100% by gun fellators' fees, fines, and federal govt gun liability insurance.

[TheSanityAnnex]

:lol I say jokey, unserious gun control (esp a city-only leve) is a joke.

Serious gun control is federal only, financed 100% by gun fellators' fees, fines, and federal govt gun liability insurance.so you agree since 1986 gun control measures have been a failure, besides the Hughes amendment (which is being fought in court as we speak)

[boutons_deux]

so you agree since 1986 gun control measures have been a failure, besides the Hughes amendment (which is being fought in court as we speak)

GFY I said what I said, and it certainly ain't in agreement with a sicko gun fellator

[TheSanityAnnex]

GFY I said what I said, and it certainly ain't in agreement with a sicko gun fellator
You are in agreement though :lol

[m>s]

:lol I say jokey, unserious gun control (esp a city-only leve) is a joke.

Serious gun control is federal only, financed 100% by gun fellators' fees, fines, and federal govt gun liability insurance.
over 100 million dead bodies

[TheSanityAnnex]

Do tell. The rest of us might not be on the same page.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750

It’s starting.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is proposing to put the ban (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf) on 5.56 mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela (http://www.cabelas.com/browse.cmd?categoryId=630609480&WT.tsrc=EML&WT.mc_id=email-nl&eid=14810931&cmp=EP20150225&seg=EPP0ALL&cnt=11516&ctb=SUBFEAT1)’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.



Wednesday night, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, stepped in with a critical letter to the bureau demanding it explain the surprise and abrupt bullet ban. The letter is shown below.

The National Rifle Association (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150225/urge-your-representative-to-join-congressional-response-to-batfe-ammo-ban), which is working with Goodlatte to gather co-signers, told Secrets that 30 House members have already co-signed the letter and Goodlatte and the NRA are hoping to get a total of 100 fast.
"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA (https://www.nraila.org/), the group's policy and lobby shop. "The NRA and our tens of millions of supporters across the country will fight to stop President Obama's latest attack on our Second Amendment freedoms."

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.
The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher-caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters, not criminals. The agency proposes to reclassify it as armor-piercing and not exempt.



But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, the agency offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged — much less offered evidence — that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.



Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo., and a 17-year veteran police officer told the Springfield News-Leader (http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2015/02/21/ban-armor-piercing-bullets/23816437/). “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”
Many see the bullet ban as an assault on the AR-15 and Obama’s back-door bid to end production and sale.

“We are concerned,” said Justin Anderson with Hyatt Gun Shop (http://www.hyattguns.com/) in Charlotte, N.C., one of the nation’s top sellers of AR-15 style rifles. “Frankly, we're always concerned when the government uses back-door methods to impose quasi-gun control.”
Groups like the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://www.nssfblog.com/oppose-atf-556-m855-ball-ammunition-ban/) suggest that under BATFE’s new rule, other calibers like popular deer hunting .308 bullets could be banned because they also are used in AR-15s, some of which can be turned into pistol-style guns. “This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide,” said the group

[boutons_deux]

:lol stupid gun fellators, all marans

Freedom!

Liberty!

2nd Amendment!

[ChumpDumper]

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750

It’s starting.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is proposing to put the ban (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf) on 5.56 mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela (http://www.cabelas.com/browse.cmd?categoryId=630609480&WT.tsrc=EML&WT.mc_id=email-nl&eid=14810931&cmp=EP20150225&seg=EPP0ALL&cnt=11516&ctb=SUBFEAT1)’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.



Wednesday night, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, stepped in with a critical letter to the bureau demanding it explain the surprise and abrupt bullet ban. The letter is shown below.

The National Rifle Association (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150225/urge-your-representative-to-join-congressional-response-to-batfe-ammo-ban), which is working with Goodlatte to gather co-signers, told Secrets that 30 House members have already co-signed the letter and Goodlatte and the NRA are hoping to get a total of 100 fast.
"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA (https://www.nraila.org/), the group's policy and lobby shop. "The NRA and our tens of millions of supporters across the country will fight to stop President Obama's latest attack on our Second Amendment freedoms."

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.
The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher-caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters, not criminals. The agency proposes to reclassify it as armor-piercing and not exempt.



But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, the agency offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged — much less offered evidence — that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.



Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo., and a 17-year veteran police officer told the Springfield News-Leader (http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2015/02/21/ban-armor-piercing-bullets/23816437/). “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”
Many see the bullet ban as an assault on the AR-15 and Obama’s back-door bid to end production and sale.

“We are concerned,” said Justin Anderson with Hyatt Gun Shop (http://www.hyattguns.com/) in Charlotte, N.C., one of the nation’s top sellers of AR-15 style rifles. “Frankly, we're always concerned when the government uses back-door methods to impose quasi-gun control.”
Groups like the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://www.nssfblog.com/oppose-atf-556-m855-ball-ammunition-ban/) suggest that under BATFE’s new rule, other calibers like popular deer hunting .308 bullets could be banned because they also are used in AR-15s, some of which can be turned into pistol-style guns. “This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide,” said the groupSo where is the executive action?

[TheSanityAnnex]

So where is the executive action?

There is not one that I have seen. I didn't write the article, just posted it as it outlines what is going on pretty well.

[ChumpDumper]

There is not one that I have seen. I didn't write the article, just posted it as it outlines what is going on pretty well.Except that it lied about executive action.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Except that it lied about executive action.

Cool, why don't you email the author.

Do you have anything to add to the actual discussion?

[ChumpDumper]

Cool, why don't you email the author.Why? He proved he lied all by himself.


Do you have anything to add to the actual discussion?Already did.

I don't know why you are so eager to forgive and even promote outright lies. Hurts your credibility tbh.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Why? He proved he lied all by himself.

Already did.

I don't know why you are so eager to forgive and even promote outright lies. Hurts your credibility tbh.

You've added nothing but your typical bullshit.

Here, an article just for you with no mention of executive action. Eagerly awaiting more relevant posts from you

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/02/24/why-is-the-atf-moving-to-ban-common-rifle-ammo/

Gun-rights groups are in an uproar over an ammunition ban proposed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The ATF says it wants to ban M855 ball ammunition, a .223 (or 5.56 mm) rifle bullet that has been used by American citizens for decades. The ATF says it wants to ban this popular bullet because it is “armor piercing.”
The law at the basis of this debate is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). As amended, the GCA prohibits the import, manufacture and distribution of “armor piercing ammunition” as defined by a few terms Attorney General Eric Holder’s Department of Justice (DOJ) is attempting to broaden.
The definition for what constitutes “armor piercing” reads: “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely … from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.”
Now, to be as nitpicky as the law, the M855 ball ammunition the ATF wants to ban as “armor piercing” doesn’t have a core made of the metals listed in what legally makes a bullet “armor piercing.” The M855 actually has a lead core with a steel tip. Also, the M855 is traditionally a rifle cartridge and the ban only covers handgun ammunition. The DOJ argues this doesn’t stop them because the law stipulates they can ban a bullet that “may be used in a handgun.” And, after all, any cartridge may be used in a handgun.


Still, the definition has another condition. According to law, when ammo is made for “sporting purposes” (hunting, recreation shooting and so on) it is exempt from this ban. According to the DOJ the “GCA exempts ammunition that would otherwise be considered armor piercing if the Attorney General determines that the specific ammunition at issue is ‘primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.’” So, according to the DOJ, they simply get to decide on this condition.
The “sporting purposes” caveat is an important exemption, as every bullet designed to ethically kill a deer or other big-game animal (whether from a pistol, rifle or shotgun) will also shoot through a bulletproof vest. If all bullets that could potentially shoot through a cop’s bulletproof vest were banned, then hunting—at least ethical hunting with firearms—would cease. Also, shooting competitions and more would effectively be terminated. (For a behind-the-scenes expose of where gun rights and gun design is headed so my book The Future of the Gun (http://www.amazon.com/The-Future-Gun-Frank-Miniter/dp/1621572404/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1394325577&sr=8-3&keywords=frank+miniter).)
Now, the ATF isn’t saying they want to do all that, but this regulatory move would certainly take us in that direction. Also, you can’t blame people for questioning the politics behind this move when the attorney general behind this proposed ban has said his failure to further restrict Second Amendment rights is his greatest failure (http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-holder-guns-20150208-story.html).
This approval process, of course, isn’t new. In 1986, the ATF actually exempted the .223 ammo it now wants to ban. Also, in 1992, the ATF exempted .30-06 M2AP cartridges (the .30-06 is a widely used and highly regarded big-game hunting round and has also long been used by the U.S. military).


So okay, if only bullets made out of a specific list of materials, used in handguns not for sporting purposes are subject to the ban, why are we talking about rifle ammo? The ATF says the reason rifles chambered in .223 are being lumped with handguns is that some manufacturers have introduced AR-type rifles (also known as “modern sporting rifles” in the firearms community and as “assault weapons” to much of the media) with short barrels and sometimes folding (or even nonexistent) butt stocks. As these guns are too short to be classified as rifles (or “long guns”), according to ATF regulations, they are regulated as “pistols.”
So the definition of what was once a pistol has become even blurrier; also, the calibers a pistol can be chambered in have grown to include many cartridges that have been traditionally considered to be rifle cartridges. This is hardly a new development. Handguns (see the G2 Contender (https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interchangeable-platforms/g2-contender)) have long used cartridges considered to be rifle calibers. (As an historical aside: When gun makers in the 19th century developed lever-action Spencers, Winchesters and more, they started by chambering them in pistol cartridges.)
Meanwhile, bullet development has sped up as manufacturers use new materials and technologies to design bullets that reliably penetrate and kill deer, elk, bears…. Also, ammo makers have been designing specific bullets for home defense, for long-range accuracy and for many other categories.
Ammo makers have also been responding to lead-ammo bans in California and on lands in other states. Since guns were invented lead has been the go-to material for bullet design. This has been changing as some states and land agencies are being pressured to force hunters and recreational shooters to use “nontoxic” bullets. The science behind the “nontoxic” debate is dubious and very political; nevertheless, manufacturers have to respond to trends whether they are from government mandates or consumer choice.


As lead has become political, ammo makers have increased research and development into other materials. The ATF has noticed this. The ATF reports that since 2011 it has “received approximately 30 exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition.” (Most of these are simply lead-free bullet designs made for many different consumer and law-enforcement applications.)


So here we have ammunition manufacturers and America’s 100-million-plus gun owners driving innovation as a regulatory agency (in this case the ATF) is trying to keep up. That’s to be expected—laws have to be applied and, when outdated, rewritten. However, this takes a hard turn toward politics when you read the reasoning within this latest ATF move.
Well, let’s step back a second. Before getting into that, it’s important to note that though the GCA’s ban on “armor piercing” handgun ammo is certainly outdated, the reasoning behind it is not. This ban was designed to save the lives of police officers. If commonly sold handgun ammo designed for the self-defense and target market can shoot through a bulletproof vest then our police officers will have lost a potentially critical protection. But this begs the question: Is .223 M855 ball ammunition currently a problem for law enforcement? Or, more precisely, is M855 ball ammunition when shot from handguns killing law-enforcement officers? According to the FBI’s “uniform crime reports” about 2.5 percent of all murders are committed with rifles of any caliber. The FBI does not break out its statistics by caliber. I was also not able to uncover a single murder of a police officer in a shooting where someone used a handgun chambered in .223—much less one using M855 ball ammunition. (The spokesperson for the ATF has thus far failed to respond to questions.)

Given that this seems to be a solution in search of a problem, it doesn’t seem conspiratorial to wonder if this is a political move orchestrated to make it more expensive to shoot AR-15s, which are traditionally chambered in .223. In its argument (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf) for this rule change, the ATF is clearly justifying expanding the ammo ban to traditional rifle calibers. So then, might the ATF’s next move be to ban ammo for other popular military/civilian calibers like the .308 and .30-06? How about the bullets used for the .500 S&W or other large handgun calibers? If this goes forward the ATF would be assuming this regulatory authority.
In fact, while arguing that definitions of what bullets are banned shouldn’t be decided by the ammunition’s intended use, but instead should be solely determined at ATF’s discretion, the ATF says, “the intent of one group of potential consumers (criminals) is no more determinative than the intent of manufacturers.” The ATF’s lumping of law-abiding gun owners as a group of “potential consumers” with “criminals” rankled many in the gun-rights community. This and other language in the proposal is leading many to argue this is all about an end-run around Congress to implement gun control.

Whatever the motivation for this change might be, as the ATF attempts to define its way to a larger regulatory role over a constitutional right, it’s clearly time for Congress to clarify its legislation or risk being left meaningless. (The ATF has opened a public-comment period until March 16. Email [email protected] to give your opinion.)

[ChumpDumper]

You've added nothing but your typical bullshit.Quite the contrary.

I corrected a lie you were apparently content to advance in your post.

Don't be angry.

I don't use the ammo, so it would seem the onus is on you to formulate some call to action here if you think one is called for.

Looks like the best thing to hope for is for the Republicans to field an electable presidential candidate.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Quite the contrary.

I corrected a lie you were apparently content to advance in your post.

Don't be angry.

I don't use the ammo, so it would seem the onus is on you to formulate some call to action here if you think one is called for.

Looks like the best thing to hope for is for the Republicans to field an electable presidential candidate.

Still contributing nothing to the discussion.

You obviously are not looking at the big picture, all ammo will be effected.

Holder couldn't pass stricter gun control through laws so he's now working around it by enacting regulations to ban the most commonly used rifle cartridge in the country. This is his way of pricing people out of owning the most popular rifle in the country, the evil AR15. Steel core banned, lead core banned. Eventually there will be no legal projectiles to shoot.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Looks like the best thing to hope for is for the Republicans to field an electable presidential candidate.
lol no.

This ban will be overturned by the people, much like all other gun control laws we've beaten recently.

[ChumpDumper]

lol no.

This ban will be overturned by the people, much like all other gun control laws we've beaten recently.Which people?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Which people?
Not in the mood for your tiresome act. If you'd like to discuss the OP I'd be more than happy.

[ChumpDumper]

Not in the mood for your tiresome act. If you'd like to discuss the OP I'd be more than happy.I am talking about a potential ammo ban.

You said the ban will be overturned by the people.

Which people will overturn it?

Had you made yourself clear in the first place, I wouldn't have to ask.

Voters? If that's the case, you've just agreed with me. Thanks.

[m>s]

It's time for the american people to shit or get off the pot. IF it doesn't happen now then it won't happen later with no ammunition. Last shot.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I am talking about a potential ammo ban.

You said the ban will be overturned by the people.

Which people will overturn it?

Had you made yourself clear in the first place, I wouldn't have to ask.

Voters? If that's the case, you've just agreed with me. Thanks.

smh

[ChumpDumper]

smhSo are you talking about voters?

[ChumpDumper]

It's time for the american people to shit or get off the pot.What does that mean?

[TheSanityAnnex]

It's time for the american people to shit or get off the pot. IF it doesn't happen now then it won't happen later with no ammunition. Last shot.

This one has caused some noise. This ban has woken up the hunting enthusiasts who are normally silent on similar issues because they never cared about collapsing buttocks, fore grips, or shortened barrels. Now that the common ammo is on the verge of being banned they've gotten their lazy asses in to the fight. .308 and 30-06 will be next.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So are you talking about voters?
Could you find a broader definition to define a group of people? I've already shot down your republican president hope theory. This is being fought by gun owners now, there is no reason to wait two years to vote for some shit repub candidate. This will be a HUGE grassroots movement, much like Colorado last year except now there will be 70,000,000 potential people to speak up. Every single gun owner will be effected by this if it were to stand.

[ChumpDumper]

Could you find a broader definition to define a group of people? I've already shot down your republican president hope theory. This is being fought by gun owners now, there is no reason to wait two years to vote for some shit repub candidate. This will be a HUGE grassroots movement, much like Colorado last year except now there will be 70,000,000 potential people to speak up. Every single gun owner will be effected by this if it were to stand.So what are they going to do to actually "overturn" an ATF classification decision?

Explain it to me.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So what are they going to do to actually "overturn" an ATF classification decision?

Explain it to me.
You don't need the process explained to you. Like I said earlier, your act is tiresome.

Back to the OP, do you see this move as backdoor gun control?

[ChumpDumper]

You don't need the process explained to you.Actually I do.

Just give me some bullet points, so to speak.

Just emails to congressmen?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Actually I do.

Just give me some bullet points, so to speak.

Just emails to congressmen?

•google
•ATF
•court cases


now, do you see this as a backdoor form of gun control, yes or no?

[boutons_deux]

gun fellators, World Champion paranoics

Still waiting for Obama to confiscate all y'all's guns, as your many years old paranoia goes :lol

[ChumpDumper]

•google
•ATF
•court casesWhen I do that with ammunition all I get is announcements about this ruling.



now, do you see this as a backdoor form of gun control, yes or no?Will you not be able to buy any bullets for your AR-15 if this ban is passed?

[TheSanityAnnex]

gun fellators, World Champion paranoics

Still waiting for Obama to confiscate all y'all's guns, as your many years old paranoia goes :lol
They'll be no need to confiscate guns when there is no legal ammo to shoot from them.

[TheSanityAnnex]

When I do that with ammunition all I get is announcements about this ruling.


Will you not be able to buy any bullets for your AR-15 if this ban is passed?its 50% of what is produced for the AR15. What do you think that does to the price of the remaining available that is still legal? I've said this for years, since gun control has been an absolute failure ammo is the end game. People will simply be priced out of being able to use their firearms for recreational purposes.

[Th'Pusher]

its 50% of what is produced for the AR15. What do you think that does to the price of the remaining available that is still legal? I've said this for years, since gun control has been an absolute failure ammo is the end game. People will simply be priced out of being able to use their firearms for recreational purposes.
You don't think suppliers would just produce more of the legal ammo?

[ChumpDumper]

its 50% of what is produced for the AR15. What do you think that does to the price of the remaining available that is still legal?Raise it initially. If production of the remaining ammo increases, the price could come down.

Depends on how scurred you guys get.


I've said this for years, since gun control has been an absolute failure ammo is the end game. People will simply be priced out of being able to use their firearms for recreational purposes.But they'll still have enough to shoot people in their homes and schools and malls?

Could be worse.

[TheSanityAnnex]

You don't think suppliers would just produce more of the legal ammo?
Do you think the suppliers machinery can just pop out various bullets at the press of a button? It will take years for the supply to get back to normal levels all the while prices skyrocket and the average folks can't afford to buy it. This has already happened before on AR ammo. Ammo prices got insane so people starting buying cheaper rounds, .22 is basically non-existent still in many parts of the country. Lead is being banned and now steel core too. Explain to me what will be left to shoot once they cross the paths they are on.

[Th'Pusher]

Do you think the suppliers machinery can just pop out various bullets at the press of a button? It will take years for the supply to get back to normal levels all the while prices skyrocket and the average folks can't afford to buy it. This has already happened before on AR ammo. Ammo prices got insane so people starting buying cheaper rounds, .22 is basically non-existent still in many parts of the country. Lead is being banned and now steel core too. Explain to me what will be left to shoot once they cross the paths they are on.
If there is money to be made, the market will respond. It's not backdoor gun control. I think it might actually be Obama trolling paranoid morons tbh.

[m>s]

What does that mean?
Fuck off kike, I cant fuckin wait

[ChumpDumper]

Fuck off kike, I cant fuckin waitWait for what?

You always puss out when I ask you to explain yourself.

You're afraid of me.

[m>s]

can't motherfuckin wait you little punk ass bitch

[TheSanityAnnex]

If there is money to be made, the market will respond. It's not backdoor gun control. I think it might actually be Obama trolling paranoid morons tbh.
I don't think you understand the ammo market at all.

[Th'Pusher]

I don't think you understand the ammo market at all.

The ammo market defies the rules of capitalism?

[TheSanityAnnex]

The ammo market defies the rules of capitalism?
How many markets can you name that rely on military surplus?

[Th'Pusher]

Remington Arms (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms) Chief Executive Officer Ted Torbeck was quoted in the Chambersburg Public Opinion newspaper on 2009-11-30 from Remington's most recent quarterly earnings conference call as saying "Since the U.S. presidential election, demand for (ammunition) has risen amidst concerns that the new administration will further restrict the use or purchase of firearms (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms) and ammunition and levy additional taxes on these products. Since that time we have responded by ramping up production, providing for additional employee overtime, establishing additional production shifts, and expanding our supply chain, none of which has required significant capital."[17] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# cite_note-PublicOpinion_2009-11-30-17) However, in August 2013 Remington broke ground on a $32 million expansion of their Lonoke, Arkansas (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonoke,_Arkansas) ammunition plant.[18] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# cite_note-ArkansasOnline_2013-08-08-18)
In response to the shortage, some ammunition distributors reduced shipments to individual stores.[19] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# cite_note-Sentinel-19) Some retailers raised prices substantially. Nevertheless, some merchants reported increases in sales between 15%[8] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# cite_note-NPR-8) and 100%.[19] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# cite_note-Sentinel-19)


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# Response_by_manufacturers_and_distributors

[Th'Pusher]

Stupid, paranoid, gullible, captured market. Taking candy from a baby. Printing money. Etc, etc.

[TheSanityAnnex]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage# Response_by_manufacturers_and_distributors

And that all happened without an outright ban on the most popular round for the most popular rifle.

5.56/.223 is still not back to normal production since your link. Like I said, you clearly don't understand the implications of this ban.

[m>s]

sounds like their worries were proven justified by this and the other attempts

[Th'Pusher]

And that all happened without an outright ban on the most popular round for the most popular rifle.

5.56/.223 is still not back to normal production since your link. Like I said, you clearly don't understand the implications of this ban.

Can you name a stupider market? Maybe religious zealots, but I'd imagine there's a pretty big overlap with the guns and ammo market. It's like these people make decisions based on pure emotion instead of logic and reason.

The whole mindset is foreign to me.

[m>s]

Can you name a stupider market? Maybe religious zealots, but I'd imagine there's a pretty big overlap with the guns and ammo market. It's like these people make decisions based on pure emotion instead of logic and reason.
The whole mindset is foreign to me.
you'll have to elaborate fuckhead because everyone who went out and bought 556 after last time was just proven to be right.

[ChumpDumper]

you'll have to elaborate
You first, pussy.

[Th'Pusher]

you'll have to elaborate fuckhead because everyone who went out and bought 556 after last time was just proven to be right.
In what way? Because of a proposed ban that doesn't exist? Just like all the proposed gun control laws that never made it out of the senate?

Look dude. You're a straight up moron. A true shitbag with no credibility.

[m>s]

You first, pussy.
i told you to fuck off kike, just name the time and the place. break that big ass fucking nose of yours.

[m>s]

In what way? Because of a proposed ban that doesn't exist? Just like all the proposed gun control laws that never made it out of the senate?

Look dude. You're a straight up moron. A true shitbag with no credibility.

>people keep trying to ban guns and place restrictions
>we should just sit back and not react in any way because hey, it didn't make it last time!

nah kike, you'll disarm us over 100million dead bodies. fuck you, fuck the political left, fuck the 34 kikes in congress and senate, and especially MOTHERFUCK the king n!gger obama. and i can say this because i have freedom of speech and nobody can take that away because i am armed, and if they try i'll go down putting a bullet in a fucking bitchass commies skull. the sooner you little bitches get that the better because you'll never in your motherfucking life pull one over on us and get the guns.

[ChumpDumper]

i told you to fuck off kike, just name the time and the place. break that big ass fucking nose of yours.lol you're too afraid to even say what you mean.

Chickenshit pussy.

[m>s]

lol you're too afraid to even say what you mean.

Chickenshit pussy.

bitchass cocksucking liberal gun grabbing communist white america hating motherfucker. boy OH I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DAY.

[Th'Pusher]

>people keep trying to ban guns and place restrictions
>we should just sit back and not react in any way because hey, it didn't make it last time!

nah kike, you'll disarm us over 100million dead bodies. fuck you, fuck the political left, fuck the 34 kikes in congress and senate, and especially MOTHERFUCK the king n!gger obama. and i can say this because i have freedom of speech and nobody can take that away because i am armed, and if they try i'll go down putting a bullet in a fucking bitchass commies skull. the sooner you little bitches get that the better because you'll never in your motherfucking life pull one over on us and get the guns.

The moron's pretty riled up. Even as short as ^ was. It was still tl;dr.

[ChumpDumper]

bitchass cocksucking liberal gun grabbing communist white america hating motherfucker. boy OH I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DAY.What day?

Don't puss out again.

Say what you mean.

[m>s]

The moron's pretty riled up. Even as short as ^ was. It was still tl;dr.
typical kike tactics, get beat and then change gears. then the next time you'll come back with zero recollection of getting owned the day before.

still waiting for you to explain how it was emotional rather than logical to buy up 556 before on!gger went for the obvious chokehold . everyone who went out and stocked up on 556 has 556 today, those who didn't won't be able to get any. the epa regulations on lead, the increasingly aggressive and unlawful use of executive orders, this was all very easy to see coming from a mile away. the only one who isn't logical is mr no gunz because "muh feels" like a typical libweenie

[TheSanityAnnex]

Can you name a stupider market? Maybe religious zealots, but I'd imagine there's a pretty big overlap with the guns and ammo market. It's like these people make decisions based on pure emotion instead of logic and reason.

The whole mindset is foreign to me.
People have seen things like coming and have stockpiled. It doesn't get more logical than that.

You act like 50% of a market share disappearing will have no implications and suppliers will drop 100s of millions into new facilities to produce the next ammo to be banned.

Have you even read why and how it was banned? Do you fail to see how this could implicate all common rifle rounds? Are you aware of the lead bans? Put that all together and you'll see the end game.

You and chump continue to not look at the bigger picture. They failed banning AR15s, they are now after the ammo.

[ChumpDumper]

People have seen things like coming and have stockpiled. It doesn't get more logical than that.

You act like 50% of a market share disappearing will have no implications and suppliers will drop 100s of millions into new facilities to produce the next ammo to be banned.How much money does it take to expand production of one type of ammo?

I'd like to see a link.

If the prices go up, why wouldn't someone invest in production?

[Th'Pusher]

typical kike tactics, get beat and then change gears. then the next time you'll come back with zero recollection of getting owned the day before.

still waiting for you to explain how it was emotional rather than logical to buy up 556 before on!gger went for the obvious chokehold . everyone who went out and stocked up on 556 has 556 today, those who didn't won't be able to get any.
You own nothing. You're a recent UTA grad and a glorified bank teller at chase or some other shitbag bank. No one takes your internet shtick seriously. You're a joke.

[Th'Pusher]

People have seen things like coming and have stockpiled. It doesn't get more logical than that.

You act like 50% of a market share disappearing will have no implications and suppliers will drop 100s of millions into new facilities to produce the next ammo to be banned.

Have you even read why and how it was banned? Do you fail to see how this could implicate all common rifle rounds? Are you aware of the lead bans? Put that all together and you'll see the end game.

You and chump continue to not look at the bigger picture. They failed banning AR15s, they are now after the ammo.
I find it amusing that you think the Feds can ban guns by banning certain types of ammo and you're so naive that you think a capital market won't respond to a stupid and willing market. Stay off of ar15.com dude.

[Th'Pusher]

The Feds should ban bongs so people stop smoking pot :lol

[m>s]

You own nothing. You're a recent UTA grad and a glorified bank teller at chase or some other shitbag bank. No one takes your internet shtick seriously. You're a joke.
I'm a joke with enough artillery to supply a small army

[m>s]

I find it amusing that you think the Feds can ban guns by banning certain types of ammo and you're so naive that you think a capital market won't respond to a stupid and willing market. Stay off of ar15.com dude.
Not ban guns at this time but hinder our ability to fight back with them. The government is at an all time low of popularity and is scared that people are arming up

[ChumpDumper]

I'm a jokeAgreed.

[m>s]

And hurting gun culture by pricing people out of the hobby

[m>s]

Im a kike
Yep

[ChumpDumper]

YepNot that it matters, but no.

[ChumpDumper]

And hurting gun culture by pricing people out of the hobby:cry my culture! :cry

[m>s]

:cry my culture! :cry
What is that supposed to mean? Yeah, my culture. Are some cultures less than others in your opinion?

[TheSanityAnnex]

I find it amusing that you think the Feds can ban guns by banning certain types of ammo and you're so naive that you think a capital market won't respond to a stupid and willing market. Stay off of ar15.com dude.
Who said anything about banning guns? I said they'll simply price people out. I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand the ammo market. I sold all of my .22's because there wasn't any way to buy it without a 100% markup. I haven't seen .22 at Walmart for two years.

[ChumpDumper]

What is that supposed to mean? Yeah, my culture. Are some cultures less than others in your opinion?I mean you're a pussy.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand the ammo market.Seems to be based mostly on fear these days.

[m>s]

I mean you're a pussy.
Yeah that's what thought. How many other cultures do you mock? Don't be a pussy.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah that's what thought. How many other cultures do you mock? Don't be a pussy.Several.

Pretty much any one you call your own.

[m>s]

Several.

Pretty much any one you call your own.
Sounds like discrimination. Who gets to decide which cultures are worthy of respect and decency? You siunt like another anti white

[ChumpDumper]

Sounds like discriminationEh, no.

It's ridicule.

I am ridiculing you and your "culture" -- in no small part because it led you to not even know what discrimination is.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Seems to be based mostly on fear these days.
The shortage after sandy hook was all based on fear. This is much different as it is a reality. The ATF grossly misinterpreted the law, and they will do it again.

[m>s]

Discrimination is action that denies social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice. This includes treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or social category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated".

[ChumpDumper]

The shortage after sandy hook was all based on fear. This is much different as it is a reality. The ATF grossly misinterpreted the law, and they will do it again.But you're going to "overturn" it -- so the ammo will be back.



Discrimination is action that denies social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice. This includes treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or social category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated".
How are stupid people usually treated online?

[Nero5]

How are stupid people usually treated online?

Oh come ON!
MS gives us such good stuff to work with it's hardly sporting not to poke him thought the bars of his mental cage with a little stick every now and then. He's clearly ruled by fear and anxiety, but his mindset is emblematic of the malaise of the society his lives in (note this 'society' is probably one that mostly exists in this head and lounge room). He's like the bully kid that's afraid of his own weakness so lashes out at all around him to cover the fear of his own exposure ... taking this to it's illogical extreme this would make him an attractive black jewish lesbian communist. There isn't that a happy thought for the day!

[TheSanityAnnex]

But you're going to "overturn" it -- so the ammo will be back.



:lol yeah those lawsuits against the ATF move so quickly

[boutons_deux]

armor-piercing bullets for handguns? just for sport shooting! :lol

[TheSanityAnnex]

armor-piercing bullets for handguns? just for sport shooting! :lol

No one is arguing those should not be banned you stupid fuck.

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/untitled_zpsufbofidz.png


Does this look like a concealable handgun?

[boutons_deux]

No one is arguing those should not be banned you stupid fuck.

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/untitled_zpsufbofidz.png


Does this look like a concealable handgun?

no more or less than an "sporty" AR-15

[TheSanityAnnex]

no more or less than an "sporty" AR-15
ATF is classifying this as a pistol, that is why M855 is being banned.

[ChumpDumper]

ATF is classifying this as a pistol, that is why M855 is being banned.Hunting rifle?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Hunting rifle?

Sure. Accurate out to 200 yards.

Cop killer?

Find me one instance of a cop being killed with M855

[ChumpDumper]

Sure. Accurate out to 200 yards.What do you hunt with it?


Cop killer?

Find me one instance of a cop being killed with M855I don't know of any cops killed by rocket launchers either. I figure it's pretty hard to get that ammo too.

[ChumpDumper]

No one is arguing those should not be banned you stupid fuck.

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/untitled_zpsufbofidz.png


Does this look like a concealable handgun?Who said anything about concealable?

Can it be used as a handgun?

[TheSanityAnnex]

What do you hunt with it?5.56 or .308

Another 5.56 was at my doorstep today when I got home from lunch.
http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/palm_zpsxin6i8ee.jpg





I don't know of any cops killed by rocket launchers either. I figure it's pretty hard to get that ammo too.

The armor piercing bullet ban had everything to do with being concealable.
Armor piercing bullets for handguns were banned in 1986 due to concerns for police safety as handguns are easily concealed and are used in the overwhelming majority of shootings. I have no problem with that ban and fully support it as it was written for police safety. They have now reclassified short barreled AR's as pistols, meaning M855 is now considered a handgun round. I found zero officer involved shootings with the M855 round, there is zero evidence that this round is an issue concerning police safety.

[TheSanityAnnex]

That picture was for you Pusher :lol fucking spenderthrift

[ChumpDumper]

5.56 or .308
What kind of animals are those?

[TheSanityAnnex]

What kind of animals are those?I read your question wrong.

I don't own that particular gun, just posted a picture to show what was now being considered a handgun, minus the buttstock. http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/spikes_zpsgyzk3y54.jpg

You could hunt pretty much anything you could with a regular rifle although accuracy would suffer the further out you got. I find the AR pistols kind of gimmicky, seem like a fun range toy though.

[TheSanityAnnex]

The armor piercing bullet ban had everything to do with being concealable.
Armor piercing bullets for handguns were banned in 1986 due to concerns for police safety as handguns are easily concealed and are used in the overwhelming majority of shootings. I have no problem with that ban and fully support it as it was written for police safety. They have now reclassified short barreled AR's as pistols, meaning M855 is now considered a handgun round. I found zero officer involved shootings with the M855 round, there is zero evidence that this round is an issue concerning police safety.

No comment chump?

[ChumpDumper]

No comment chump?Well, some dude just pumped a gun store employee with 30 bullets from an AR-15 a couple months ago.

I don't think he was concealing anything.

On the whole, I see your point. Ammo manufacturers can't exactly be hurting for money right now though, so I don't see their retooling to be such a deal breaker.

[ChumpDumper]

I read your question wrong.

I don't own that particular gun, just posted a picture to show what was now being considered a handgun, minus the buttstock. http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/spikes_zpsgyzk3y54.jpgSo if you took that stock off, you would pretty much hold it in your hand, right?

[TheSanityAnnex]

So if you took that stock off, you would pretty much hold it in your hand, right?

If you were to remove that stock (buffer tube) the gun would not function, it is an integral part of the firearm.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Well, some dude just pumped a gun store employee with 30 bullets from an AR-15 a couple months ago.

I don't think he was concealing anything.

On the whole, I see your point. Ammo manufacturers can't exactly be hurting for money right now though, so I don't see their retooling to be such a deal breaker.

For me it is not so much about the shortage but what will be banned next. Lead is being banned, steel core is being banned, soon there will be hardly anything legal to shoot. And what is left that is legal will be extremely expensive. Manufacturers just can't drop all their old machinery and buy 100s of millions of dollars of new machinery over night. It could 10 years+ to get that all sorted out and back to normal manufacturing levels. And that is not even considering all of the different primers/powders/brass changing as well.

[ChumpDumper]

If you were to remove that stock (buffer tube) the gun would not function, it is an integral part of the firearm.OK, but you can't really call it just a rifle at that point can you?

I don't know enough about the nomenclature -- or about the gun's construction obviously.

Anyway, isn't the new regulation about what the bullet can do, not the classification of the gun itself?

[ChumpDumper]

For me it is not so much about the shortage but what will be banned next. Lead is being banned, steel core is being banned, soon there will be hardly anything legal to shoot. And what is left that is legal will be extremely expensive. Manufacturers just can't drop all their old machinery and buy 100s of millions of dollars of new machinery over night. It could 10 years+ to get that all sorted out and back to normal manufacturing levels. And that is not even considering all of the different primers/powders/brass changing as well.Considering the size of thee companies, I wouldn't worry about their ability to fund retooling.

And does it really take ten years to retool bullet factories? I mean it took like four years to build the Toyota factory from scratch.

[TheSanityAnnex]

OK, but you can't really call it just a rifle at that point can you?

I don't know enough about the nomenclature -- or about the gun's construction obviously.

Anyway, isn't the new regulation about what the bullet can do, not the classification of the gun itself?You can call it what you want, it is not easily concealable, and that was the crux in banning armor piercing for handguns as they are easily concealable. The bullet has always been able to do what it does. It was exempted by congress because it's common use was for sporting purposes, the same as it is now. Because they are now considering the above a handgun, M855 falls under banned armor piercing for handguns. It's bullshit.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Considering the size of thee companies, I wouldn't worry about their ability to fund retooling.

And does it really take ten years to retool bullet factories? I mean it took like four years to build the Toyota factory from scratch.
The industry still hasn't caught up since Sandy Hook and no ammo was banned. With an outright ban on 50% of produced AR ammo I think my 10 year guess is close. It is much more than just machinery though, 5.56 and .223 have different components, all that has to be factored in as well.

[ChumpDumper]

You can call it what you want, it is not easily concealable, and that was the crux in banning armor piercing for handguns as they are easily concealable. The bullet has always been able to do what it does. It was exempted by congress because it's common use was for sporting purposes, the same as it is now. Because they are now considering the above a handgun, M855 falls under banned armor piercing for handguns. It's bullshit.Well, is being concealable even a factor after Sandy Hook and Aurora?

[ChumpDumper]

The industry still hasn't caught up since Sandy Hook and no ammo was banned.Well there was not a reason to believe that spike in fear harding was permanent.


With an outright ban on 50% of produced AR ammo I think my 10 year guess is close. It is much more than just machinery though, 5.56 and .223 have different components, all that has to be factored in as well.I will believe ten year estimates when I see them.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Well, is being concealable even a factor after Sandy Hook and Aurora?

According to the ATF yes. That is what this is all about, M855 being able to be shot from a "handgun".

[TheSanityAnnex]

Well there was not a reason to believe that spike in fear harding was permanent.

I will believe ten year estimates when I see them.

I'm just going off what I have seen. This idea that the industry could just ramp up quickly is far fetched. Time will tell.

I appreciate you not going with your schtick today, actually been a pleasure conversing with you.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm just going off what I have seen. This idea that the industry could just ramp up quickly is far fetched. Time will tell.

I appreciate you not going with your schtick today, actually been a pleasure conversing with you.From my limited Googling, a new plant that could produce 2-3 billion rounds of ammo takes about $35 million and ten months to complete.

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/09/remington-begins-construction-on-new-ammo-plant-in-arkansas-video/

[ChumpDumper]

According to the ATF yes. That is what this is all about, M855 being able to be shot from a "handgun".But that is not the same as concealable.

Looks like they are using the final language of the 1986 law


18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgunhttp://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf

--which apparently goes against the original intent of the lawmakers, who only wanted to ban such ammo designed to be used in handguns.

So it's legal hair splitting, but interesting that the language ended up that way back then. The ATF claims that there are now handguns that use such ammo. Are there any actual pistol looking things that shoot that stuff?

[TheSanityAnnex]

From my limited Googling, a new plant that could produce 2-3 billion rounds of ammo takes about $35 million and ten months to complete.

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/09/remington-begins-construction-on-new-ammo-plant-in-arkansas-video/

Remington is one of the biggest and produces all types of ammo. My timeline is specifically for the production of M855.


Many companies have been reluctant to expand and invest in new facilities. These new ammo plants are some of the first major expansions in American ammunition manufacturing capacity in about 10 years, and couldn’t happen sooner. I think a lot of them are reluctant due to spending millions on machinery that will produce the next banned bullet.

[TheSanityAnnex]

But that is not the same as concealable.

Looks like they are using the final language of the 1986 law

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf

--which apparently goes against the original intent of the lawmakers, who only wanted to ban such ammo designed to be used in handguns.

So it's legal hair splitting, but interesting that the language ended up that way back then. The ATF claims that there are now handguns that use such ammo. Are there any actual pistol looking things that shoot that stuff?

Those pictures I posted are what the ATF is calling handguns. There are some smaller ones but all basically the same as those pictures. I believe there are very small single shot handguns but they were exempted because 1 shot doesn't pose much threat to a police officer.

[ChumpDumper]

Remington is one of the biggest and produces all types of ammo. My timeline is specifically for the production of M855.I said my Googling was limited, but I don't see how M855 would be that different.


I think a lot of them are reluctant due to spending millions on machinery that will produce the next banned bullet.Looks like the ATF was pretty limited in what it could change. I assume there is a kind of ammo that is still legal to be used in AR-15s. I'd be interested to know what it would take to retool an M855 to a non-banned type.

Anyhow, it looks like Congress could revisit the law they made in the first place to fix the language.and grandfather that stuff back in. Of course it's subject to the regular politics, but it doesn't seem impossible.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I said my Googling was limited, but I don't see how M855 would be that different.

Looks like the ATF was pretty limited in what it could change. I assume there is a kind of ammo that is still legal to be used in AR-15s. I'd be interested to know what it would take to retool an M855 to a non-banned type.

Anyhow, it looks like Congress could revisit the law they made in the first place to fix the language.and grandfather that stuff back in. Of course it's subject to the regular politics, but it doesn't seem impossible.

Was just on the ATF facebook page checking out their M855 comment section. Found this interesting.

"The M855 round does not fit the definition of "armor piercing" as defined in the GCA, because the tip is the only steel part of it, not the entire core. Nor does the jacket weigh more than 25% of the rounds total weight. Therefore you cannot ban the ammunition citing the GCA, but I don't honestly think that will stop you."

And this is what is all about for me as well.

"As a Police Officer in a large city it is very rare for us to encounter a AR-15 style rifle or pistol used in the commission of a crime, let alone against us. Stop using law enforcement as a pawn and excuse for taking actions like this. Criminals are the problem, and they will disregard the law anyway. Lets be straight with all this, these moves are politically motivated. You guys have the stats, you know the number of crimes that so called "assault weapons" are used in. I'm more worried about the next criminal killing me with a Glock then a AR or AK. Legal law abiding citizens shooting some cheap green tip in their yards, at the range, or chambered for self defense are NOT the problem!"

[ChumpDumper]

Was just on the ATF facebook page checking out their M855 comment section. Found this interesting.

"The M855 round does not fit the definition of "armor piercing" as defined in the GCA, because the tip is the only steel part of it, not the entire core. Nor does the jacket weigh more than 25% of the rounds total weight. Therefore you cannot ban the ammunition citing the GCA, but I don't honestly think that will stop you."

And this is what is all about for me as well.

"As a Police Officer in a large city it is very rare for us to encounter a AR-15 style rifle or pistol used in the commission of a crime, let alone against us. Stop using law enforcement as a pawn and excuse for taking actions like this. Criminals are the problem, and they will disregard the law anyway. Lets be straight with all this, these moves are politically motivated. You guys have the stats, you know the number of crimes that so called "assault weapons" are used in. I'm more worried about the next criminal killing me with a Glock then a AR or AK. Legal law abiding citizens shooting some cheap green tip in their yards, at the range, or chambered for self defense are NOT the problem!"I guess I would have to see the original exemption given to M855s. If it didn't meet the statute in the first place, it wouldn't have needed an exemption.

[boutons_deux]

Fox News guest: Obama shouldn’t ban armor-piercing rounds because ‘tiny bullets’ can’t hurt cops

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/fox_ff_bullet_ban_150228a-800x430.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/fox-news-guest-obama-shouldnt-ban-armor-piercing-rounds-because-tiny-bullets-cant-hurt-cops/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

.... she's showing the size of dick fellators' dicks and/or brains.

[m>s]

Boutons come and get the guns put up or shut up. Don't wait for big daddy gubbamint to do all the heavy lifting, If you feel so strongly about something then you should do it yourself.

[boutons_deux]

NRA Top Lobbyist: Obama Admin. Proposal To Ban Armor-Piercing Ammo Is Actually A Move Against Women

"They're banning that ammo because they don't like the fact that women like the adjustable stock and the low recoil" found on the AR-15 platform.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/03/03/nra-top-lobbyist-obama-admin-proposal-to-ban-ar/202724

platform? :lol

[DisAsTerBot]

Boutons come and get the guns put up or shut up. Don't wait for big daddy gubbamint to do all the heavy lifting, If you feel so strongly about something then you should do it yourself.

irony explosion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[m>s]

NRA Top Lobbyist: Obama Admin. Proposal To Ban Armor-Piercing Ammo Is Actually A Move Against Women

"They're banning that ammo because they don't like the fact that women like the adjustable stock and the low recoil" found on the AR-15 platform.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/03/03/nra-top-lobbyist-obama-admin-proposal-to-ban-ar/202724

platform? :lol
Dems continue their war on women and pro rape legislation, par per etc

[TheSanityAnnex]

White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest is defending a proposal by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to ban AR-15 ammunition. Earnest calls it a “common sense” approach.

“This seems to be an area where everyone should agree, that if there are armor piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement at considerable more risk,” Earnest explained when questioned about the ban by White House reporter Fred Lucas.


I'd really appreciate them showing us these easily concealable rifle round shooting handguns. I'd also appreciate just the name of one law enforcement officer killed with M855, just one.

[pgardn]

An armor piercing bullet would likely go right through a police officer without protection thus failing to distribute all that kinetic energy to vital organs and such.

So what's the big fuss...

And just as a question aside: To pierce armor I am going to assume the bullet is very dense, or shot very fast, or both. So... Wouldnt the recoil be hell on your hand and wrist shot from a hand gun? Seems it would.

[Nero5]

irony explosion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+11ty

[TheSanityAnnex]

Could you find a broader definition to define a group of people? I've already shot down your republican president hope theory. This is being fought by gun owners now, there is no reason to wait two years to vote for some shit repub candidate. This will be a HUGE grassroots movement, much like Colorado last year except now there will be 70,000,000 potential people to speak up. Every single gun owner will be effected by this if it were to stand.


There is not a group of people that rallies together and forces action more than the gun community. It's not over yet but it is a start in the right direction.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

Notice to those Commenting on the Armor Piercing Ammunition Exemption FrameworkThank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.
Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Texas State Rifle Association
Congressman John Culberson (R-Harris Co) Says Repeal of Amm Ban Immediate and Permanent!
Half an hour ago, Congressman John Culberton (R-Harris Co) called TSRA and asked that we get the message out to our members.

The ban on green tip ammo has been repealed and it's gone for good!

Congressman Culberson chairs a committee with direct influence over BATF and was able to convince those within the agency to remove the ban. We were also told that the ban was actually the first of several. All part of a "research project" designed to review many types of common ammunition which might be armor-piercing.

God Bless the Texas Delegation and God Bless Congressman John Culberson who remembers TSRA members sent him to Congress many years ago and took a moment to call.

And as always,
Keep the faith.

Alice Tripp
Legislative Director
TSRA




Will need confirmation from the ATF directly but even more good news

[CosmicCowboy]

The whole issue was crazy. For those of you that don't really know guns and ammo Obama and his Justice Department thugs made "green tip" ammo out to be this awful cop killing bullet. The Geneva Convention many years ago set up rules for what was and wasn't acceptable ammunition. Expansive bullets were outlawed because they did traumatic damage above and beyond just putting the opposing soldier out of action for the conflict. From a tactical standpoint even, wounding an opposing soldier was better than actually killing them as it took at least two more soldiers off the line to care for and get the wounded soldier back to where he could get treatment.

After years of evolution the US and NATO came up with an ammo that was reasonably priced and met all the qualifications of the Geneva Convention...it would poke a small 5.56mm hole in the recipient and bounce around but would not expand and cause excessive trauma.

This ammo WAS the 62 grain "green tip".

Because this ammo as agreed upon with US and NATO is manufactured in such huge quantities it also is the beneficiary of economies of scale. It is relatively economical for the recreational shooter to purchase.

THAT is why Obama and his minions wanted to ban it...not because of it's mythical cop killing qualities but because it was relatively cheap to buy and shoot. ALL rifle ammo will defeat a kevlar vest. If you really want for sure cop killing qualities then all you have to do is go to your local store and pay 5X as much for commercial hunting ammo in the 5.56 caliber that is made to expand on impact and destroy tissue in a golf ball sized tunnel instead of punching that small 5.56mm hole.

Is what it is, guys.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I cashed in nicely offloading 2,500 rounds of M8555

Thanks Obama!

[TheSanityAnnex]

lol boutons. Gun fellators better at organizing for hope and change and seeing results than whiny libs

[boutons_deux]

lol boutons. Gun fellators better at organizing for hope and change and seeing results than whiny libs

gun fellators, always for sale and duped, are backed by the $100Bs of the guns/ammo industry, because guns are all about profits, not about 2nd Amendment or Freedom!

[Winehole23]

https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

[boutons_deux]

"the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework"

well, duh, ANY restriction on ANYTHING guns will cause NRA/GOA to unleash, kick their gun fellatin hounds.

[Winehole23]

Obama caved. Good thing too. The 1986 law, signed by GHWB and passed by a voice vote in both chambers, never clearly defined what was to be banned.

Not enforcing stupid laws is a good idea.

[TheSanityAnnex]

gun fellators, always for sale and duped, are backed by the $100Bs of the guns/ammo industry, because guns are all about profits, not about 2nd Amendment or Freedom!

At some point you just have to realize there are 70 million of us willing to organize, push back, and actually get things done. I've continuously told you that whining like you do on the internet will not produce the results you seek. Take a page out of my book and be proactive for once in your life.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Obama caved. Good thing too. The 1986 law, signed by GHWB and passed by a voice vote in both chambers, never clearly defined what was to be banned.

Not enforcing stupid laws is a good idea.

They pulled of the 7n6 Russian import ban and thought they'd be able to pull off this as well. Glad they tucked tail, do not think they expected this kind of immediate blowback.

[m>s]

They ain't seen nothing as far as blow back. They day they actually get bold and try to jam some bullshit down our throats will be the day it pops off. IM not happy they tossed us a bone here. I want every 2nd amendment subverter tried for treason and hung and a new government that respects the constitution. These assholes are illegitimate but obviously not stupid.

[m>s]

Every time they start their shit I go red pill people and create new gun owners

[TheSanityAnnex]

They'll be no need to confiscate guns when there is no legal ammo to shoot from them.

Called it.

They never planned on just M855...they are going after all 5.56

The fight continues. Time to defund the BATF


http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-raises-new-worries-about-ar-15-ammo/article/2561422

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on Thursday raised new concerns about surplus military ammo used in popular AR-15 rifles and pistols just days after pulling back (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-waves-white-flag-kills-ar-15-bullet-ban-in-big-win-for-the-nra/article/2561312) on a proposal to ban the ammo because it could threaten police safety.





In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing (http://www.appropriations.senate.gov/hearings-and-testimony/cjs-subcommittee-hearing-fy16-budgets-fbi-us-marshals-service-dea-atf), ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.
"Any 5.56 round" is "a challenge for officer safety," he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called "cop killer" rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.
His agency's move to ban the 5.56 M855 version was condemned by the National Rifle Association and majorities in the House and Senate and as a result was pulled back though not abandoned. At the hearing Jones said that nearly 90,000 comments on the proposal were received, many negative.
As a result, he said that the ATF will suspend rewriting the "framework" used to exempt armor piercing ammo from sale or use. "It probably isn't going to happen any time soon," he said. Jones also said, "We are not going to move forward."
The 5.56 M855 round, he said, is military surplus, typically has a green tip and was used in the M-16. There are several versions of the 5.56. The M855carries a bullet (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-199) that can penetrate police body armor, though shooters often debate that (http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/ammunition/military-ammunition-and-why-green-tip-m855-is-not-armor-piercing/).
The ATF singled it out for a ban because more AR-15 style pistols that can shoot the ammo are being produced and presumably could be used by criminals in police shootouts. The AR-15 can also shoot the less lethal .223 round, which was not targeted by ATF in the ban proposal.
Police groups, however, said the pistols are not being used against cops.
The NRA and some 52 senators said they also feared that the ATF move was an Obama administration bid for gun control targeted at the AR-15.

[TheSanityAnnex]

The ATF singled it out for a ban because more AR-15 style pistols that can shoot the ammo are being produced and presumably could be used by criminals in police shootouts. The AR-15 can also shoot the less lethal .223 round, which was not targeted by ATF in the ban proposal.

:lol .223 is only 50fps slower than 5.56

Great logic there ATF

[ChumpDumper]

They ain't seen nothing as far as blow back. They day they actually get bold and try to jam some bullshit down our throats will be the day it pops off. IM not happy they tossed us a bone here. I want every 2nd amendment subverter tried for treason and hung and a new government that respects the constitution. These assholes are illegitimate but obviously not stupid.lol