In your opinion, what is wrong with this team?

[TE]

Discuss.

[TheGreatYacht]

KawhISO's. KawhPostups. KawhDrives. KawhSpotUp3's

569934242668367872

[ducks]

lack of want to
tonight no ball movement from bench or starters
no chemistry right now
pop used differerent lineups when people got hurt and people are still trying to adjust
no practice time

[midnightpulp]

Parker. Parker again. And our wing scoring is utter shit right now. Not one wing player on this team seems capable of scoring 20 points, even Kawhi. I have no clue how they put 115 against the Clippers. Fluke shit.

[Mugen]

Harder to decide what isn't wrong with this team tbh.

[Malik Hairston]

Elephant in the room: the 2014 Spurs were better in the playoffs when Parker was on the bench

Manu and Green have went downhill since Parker's return, the energy of the team has been awful, too..French Josh Smith..

[Robz4000]

Everything.

[marinoman]

Start with Parker/patty

[weebo]

Everything.

[timtonymanu]

- Parker's presence
- Diaw/Splitter's decline
- Perimeter shooters have all gone cold

[ChumpDumper]

Elephant in the room: the 2014 Spurs were better in the playoffs when Parker was on the bench

Manu and Green have went downhill since Parker's return, the energy of the team has been awful, too..French Josh Smith..What's the over/under on the number of threads in which this is posted?

20?

[KL2]

Spurs were doing much better with Parker benched, Leonard was actually touching the ball, Parker was getting torched, he started off strong, then ended like shit, it was the beginning of the end.

Belli is garbage, too slow, no threat to score unless he's wide open, no threat to drive, it allows the defense to recover very easily, messes up the spacing etc. he's just a body out there, that's all I see, nothing special whatsoever. He's really dragging the team down along with TP, that horrible defensive duo.

[RD2191]

Tony Parker, next question.

[benstanfield]

Obviously Parker is terrible. Arguably the worst starting PG in the league (and certainly the worst on any playoff team). Everything starts with that.

Kawhi just isn't a very good offensive player and for whatever reason they're defining his role as a postup/midrange SF in 2015

the "beautiful game" isn't working, teams are sitting back and letting us pass just to pass until there are 6 seconds left on the clock and we have to heave something up.

The defense has been bad hut that's largely a product of TP getting obliterated by every screen.

Pop is being straight up retarded with the lineups tbh. Baynes in the SL has been largely a disaster on both ends and he refuses to play Splitter or Mills significant minutes.

[shingo_318]

Parker the cancer, now everyone is infected. This season is done.

[benefactor]

Fat and happy after 5. Glad they got it, because the run is over.

[manufor3]

Wide open shots not falling
Parker and Kawhi (among others) have gone stone cold on offense
Inconsistent lineups

[ElNono]

It really is a lot of 'want' and hustle... I'm watching LAC and MEM right now, and they're playing with purpose, intensity, going to the floor for lose balls... we're going through the motions...

[Guajalote]

They haven't hit critical mass yet. Seems like to me, on all of the championship DVD's I watch, there always seems to be this one defining moment in a season when something happens (a bad loss via last-second shot, a critical injury, a courageous effort, etc.) which someone on the team credits as the turning point. I remember an interview from 2003 when David was talking about Horry (I think) missing a shot that he would have normally made. He said something like, "That's when you know you're going to win the championship-when you start getting breaks like that." The team will be there. Too much pride not to. 27 games left to get it figured out is plenty of time.

[spurraider21]

http://cdn.nextimpulsesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tonyparker.gif

[FkLA]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

[Chomag]

I think whats NOT wrong with this team is the better question.

[tmtcsc]

Mix a ton of complacency with a lack of chemistry, add a side of confusion and you have the recipe for the recent Spurs' woes. One gets the feeling Pop realizes TP isn't coming back this season. It's over for that dude and his struggles - at least for this year. Pop has a tough decision to make.

TP - is mentally and physically gone. He can't beat anyone off the dribble and that's the key to his game. Is it forever? I have no idea. I just know he hasn't looked right in a long, long time and its costing the team W's. He is setting a very ugly tone out there both offensively and defensively.

Tim - Remarkably, he looks pretty good.
Manu - looks done. Empty drives, missed FT's...its time for him to change his game. He needs to handle the ball less and become more of a spot up shooter.
Kawhi Leonard - doesn't look comfortable in the offense. Pop should go back to not running plays for him. He's not ready yet.
Patty Mills - Lack of confidence maybe? Im not sure what happened to his shot.
CJ - Gives you what he has and looks like the best PG on the roster at times.
Beli - Way too inconsistent but it may be because players are trying to do more than expected of their roles.
BoBo - Is most dangerous when the ball is being shared and moved around. Im not too worried about him for some reason. He'll come around.
Green - In a terrible slump and like the rest of the offense - seems lost.
Splitter - He's been a non-factor the whole season.

[RD2191]

http://cdn.nextimpulsesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tonyparker.gif
Lmao

[Embedded]

boredom

[RD2191]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=18403&dateline=1424554647
Rofl

[Kool Bob Love]

waiting for the games matter. Not some cheap game in Utah. They'll be alright.

[UZER]

Pop still relying on a 36 year old wing player...who has played enough international games to equal two different careers who has been a turnover machine his entire career and now can't do anything else to make up for said turnovers...that he just gives the other teams free points.

[HI-FI]

Lot wrong but the most obvious is The Contract and Parker re-paying it by being fatter and shittier than ever.

the team seemed more invested until his return. Maybe they see Pop giving Parker special treatment, or maybe they're just going through the motions and worn out. Possibly they'll flip a switch. We'll know more in a month or two.

[SpursFan86]

Biggest things:

1) Parker legitimately playing like one of the worst PGs in the league. He's playing so poorly that it's hard for any lineup he's included in to do well.

2) Lack of 3-point shooting. We had 8 players shooting >37% from 3 last year. This year we only have 3.

3) Role players aren't showing up. Splitter and Diaw have been nonexistent for most of the year. Mills hasn't played that well. Green can hardly get minutes at this point.

4) Trying to get Kawhi involved in the offense is fine, but we're only doing it by giving him isos and post-ups. He's been scoring at well below league average efficiency in both of those categories.

[ElNono]

Pop still relying on a 36 year old wing player...who has played enough international games to equal two different careers who has been a turnover machine his entire career and now can't do anything else to make up for said turnovers...that he just gives the other teams free points.

False. No matter what stat you look at, he's been a top 5 player on this team this season:
#3 PIE
#4 PER
#4 VORP
#5 WS

The fact that a 36 year old bench player *is* a top 5 player on your team is what's really scary. It means that most of the rest of the team has been really bad.

[coachmac87]

Diaw needs to be in the starting line up....

[Lerojo]

Parker not landing his mid range shots, not driving in to the paint and dishing out or finishing at the rim as well as he is/was capable of.

Leonard being a bit unsure, or not fully comfortable with his role on offence (now that Parker is not the main offensive weapon he has been).

Mills and Green being streaky and not consistent with their shot.

Tiago can't run, jump, pivot, or hustle due to whatever is up with that calf.

Baynes is a bench guy, not a starter. He can't handle the responsibility he has been given yet.

Diaw has lacked consistency and impact

[spurtech09]

lack of want to
tonight no ball movement from bench or starters
no chemistry right now
pop used differerent lineups when people got hurt and people are still trying to adjust
no practice time
all star break was plenty of practice time...despite Duncan....I say refs

[UZER]

False. No matter what stat you look at, he's been a top 5 player on this team this season:
#3 PIE
#4 PER
#4 VORP
#5 WS

The fact that a 36 year old bench player *is* a top 5 player on your team is what's really scary. It means that most of the rest of the team has been really bad.

Yeah, that's my point. Why is this guy still relied on this much at this point of his career? And Per pie pox puke whatever, he's still a turnover machine.

[redskinfan]

The overseas players got complacent and didn't work hard because well they are world champions now, Danny again did a world summer tour instead of working on his lame game, right now I'd rather see Jeff Errors or Matty B start over Baynes, at least they get in there and hustle, I'm not making Baynes the scape goat but he is not an NBA player maybe borderline 12th or 15th man.

[ElNono]

Yeah, that's my point. Why is this guy still relied on this much at this point of his career? And Per pie pox puke whatever, he's still a turnover machine.

Because everyone else is sucking worse... FWIW, this season:

Turnovers per game:
Tony Parker: 2.4
Manu Ginobili: 2.3
Tim Duncan: 1.9

[wildchild]

Not one wing player on this team seems capable of scoring 20 points, even Kawhi.

Kawhi scored 12 points 5-7 in only 18 minutes against the Warriors. Easily he could have scored 20 points if Pop would have let him play 32 minutes like Curry and Thompson.

It's funny like how all is about players but nobody questions Pop's decisions

[RD2191]

Kawhi scored 12 points 5-7 in only 18 minutes against the Warriors. Easily he could have scored 20 points if Pop would have let him play 32 minutes like Curry and Thompson.

It's funny like how all is about players but nobody questions Pop's decisions
Pop has been fucking trash this season.

[Venti Quattro]

Motivation is severely down. It is the root of what ails the Spurs.

As one bemedalled Argie poster here said, "Motivation is one hell of a drug".

Motivation drove them to run over and murder the Miami Heat.

Motivation got them to run roughshood over the NBA.

Motivation even got a fat-ass Boris Diaw to play the best stretch of his basketball career.

[ElNono]

Motivation.

As one bemedalled Argie poster here said, "Motivation is one hell of a drug".

Motivation even got a fat-ass Boris Diaw to play the best stretch of his basketball career.

Formerly Argie, formerly Italian, tbh...

[UZER]

Because everyone else is sucking worse... FWIW, this season:

Turnovers per game:
Tony Parker: 2.4
Manu Ginobili: 2.3
Tim Duncan: 1.9

Still doesn't change what I've said.

[ElNono]

Still doesn't change what I've said.

You say Pop is relying on him like he has options. Numbers say he doesn't. I've been one guy here that has said the Spurs shouldn't be relying on Manu that much, but what options are there with the general suckfest?

[UZER]

You say Pop is relying on him like he has options. Numbers say he doesn't. I've been one guy here that has said the Spurs shouldn't be relying on Manu that much, but what options are there with the general suckfest?

Dude you keep saying what I'm saying. Why doesn't he have options? Why is Manu still his only option at this point of his career?

[unleashbaynes]

What's the over/under on the number of threads in which this is posted?

20?

what's the over/under on how many of your posts aren't snarky bullshit? 0?

[Johnny RIngo]

Dude you keep saying what I'm saying. Why doesn't he have options? Why is Manu still his only option at this point of his career?

Because Parker sucks dick? Pop has no other alternative. The $14 million dollar "star" point guard is playing so shitty that he has to keep going back to Manu to bail the team out. Worked extremely well in the playoffs last year. Manu just doesn't have the legs to do this year round anymore.

[gameFACE]

They're happy to settle for 5 (like a lot of Spurs fans, tbh). There's no excuse. This team has only been together for two years now. They don't need fucking time to get it together. It should be second nature. All the young guys should be embarrassed that a 38-yr old is playing better.

Sucks because if they had it together they could take any one of the teams coming out of the east and feast on a repeat.

[dabom]

Pop has been fucking trash this season.

[ElNono]

Dude you keep saying what I'm saying. Why doesn't he have options? Why is Manu still his only option at this point of his career?

Because we paid younger guys like Tony, Diaw, Danny, Beli to show up and play and they largely have not. I know it looks like we're not trying to win games, but we actually are.

[ChumpDumper]

what's the over/under on how many of your posts aren't snarky bullshit? 0?That's subjective and can't be wagered.

[wildchild]

Pop has been fucking trash this season.

I'd be so grateful if someone can explain me why he plays one of the worst defensive backcourt in the league for long minutes...

[ViceCity86]

Motivation is severely down. It is the root of what ails the Spurs.

As one bemedalled Argie poster here said, "Motivation is one hell of a drug".

Motivation drove them to run over and murder the Miami Heat.

Motivation got them to run roughshood over the NBA.

Motivation even got a fat-ass Boris Diaw to play the best stretch of his basketball career.

[Cane]

They got injured, and they're not in 30+ minute condition except Duncan. Which makes the Spurs even less athletic, and makes every mistake that much worse. Plus they got a championship bullseye on their back. Spurs have played a lot of basketball tbh

Also Messina is probably a huge downgrade for repeating (dem Hawks)

[RD2191]

I'd be so grateful if someone can explain me why he plays one of the worst defensive backcourt in the league for long minutes...
Only reason I can think of is that he's looking for offense but he tried starting marco last season and the results were shit.

[MultiTroll]

When Parker's been off the floor, the Spurs (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs) have an Offensive Rating of 105.4 and a Defensive Rating of 96.3, numbers that would trail only the Warriors (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/golden-state-warriors). With Parker on the floor however, the Spurs are essentially theSacramento Kings (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/sacramento-kings).

stats courtesy an article from Pounding The Cock

[wildchild]

Only reason I can think of is that he's looking for offense but he tried starting marco last season and the results were shit.

Yep. It's a failed experiment, and it's hurting the team now.

[InRareForm]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-lnn75UIAAsVkb.png

[Rapper]

Tony Parker: slow, lack of energy, can not set up everything anymore.

Kawai Leanord : lack of confidence, mentally weak, can not play under presure。

Manu Ginoibli: a turnover machine

Aaron Bayne : did his best already but unfortunately a normal player.

Danny Green : Cant shot the 3

Marco Belineli :Cant shot the 3

Cory Joseph : a ball choker

Tigao Spitter: 5 pts 4 rebs per game ,nothing helped.

The only guy still carrying the team is Tim Duncan.

[illusioNtEk]

It's called rust.

Something many of you fat fucks don't understand.... Give it some time guys lets wait at least 1 more month before we throw in the towel.

[ego]

Tony Parker: slow, lack of energy, can not set up everything anymore.

Kawai Leanord : lack of confidence, mentally weak, can not play under presure。

Manu Ginoibli: a turnover machine

Aaron Bayne : did his best already but unfortunately a normal player.

Danny Green : Cant shot the 3

Marco Belineli :Cant shot the 3

Cory Joseph : a ball choker

Tigao Spitter: 5 pts 4 rebs per game ,nothing helped.

The only guy still carrying the team is Tim Duncan.

Tonight Gobert >> Duncan What do you expect ... ?

[Sean Cagney]

Tony Parker: slow, lack of energy, can not set up everything anymore.

Kawai Leanord : lack of confidence, mentally weak, can not play under presure。

Manu Ginoibli: a turnover machine

Aaron Bayne : did his best already but unfortunately a normal player.

Danny Green : Cant shot the 3

Marco Belineli :Cant shot the 3

Cory Joseph : a ball choker

Tigao Spitter: 5 pts 4 rebs per game ,nothing helped.

The only guy still carrying the team is Tim Duncan.
I agree on most of that there except Kawhi under pressure, he has done pretty well in the last two finals against Lebron James and in the playoffs overall has excelled, I would call that playing under pressure so to speak.


It's called rust.

Something many of you fat fucks don't understand.... Give it some time guys lets wait at least 1 more month before we throw in the towel.

Rust? I don't think it is all just rust at this point. They are all healthy now so to speak and have the team back together and it's near March, if they are all still rusty with 26 games left LORD HELP US. I agree on the month thing though, if they are still playing like this next month then forget it they are a first round exit.

[Old School 44]

Key players are pressing, trying to be the hero, trying to save the team and the season and it's snowballing through the rest of the team. There's an old cliché you occasionally hear players say which I believe is true, "you gotta let the game come to you". If you don't, you end up trying to do too much. You start playing outside of yourself at the detriment of the team. I still think they can right the ship, but it will be tough, especially as criticism mounts.

[romain.star]

1/ Parker's lack of contribution in everything
2/ Kawhi minimal impact on offense
3/ Role players being shitty (Splitter and Bobo mainly)
4/ Manu is a legend but he is really 37 years old now

[spurs10]

We are being outplayed in every aspect. The free throws are seemingly a barometer for all our other woes. Tony is looking especially bad. It's encouraging that Boris is playing better. Tiago, Beli, Green, and Patty are looking weak as well.

[romain.star]

Tony Parker: slow, lack of energy, can not set up everything anymore.

Kawai Leanord : lack of confidence, mentally weak, can not play under presure。

Manu Ginoibli: a turnover machine

Aaron Bayne : did his best already but unfortunately a normal player.

Danny Green : Cant shot the 3

Marco Belineli :Cant shot the 3

Cory Joseph : a ball choker

Tigao Spitter: 5 pts 4 rebs per game ,nothing helped.

The only guy still carrying the team is Tim Duncan.

Hum, did you watch last year playoffs run?

[Rapper]

Tonight Gobert >> Duncan What do you expect ... ?

Do not ever try to challenge the all time great just based on him getting blocked " twice" by a young guy luckily.

[Rapper]

Hum, did you watch last year playoffs run?

Certainly. I did

[romain.star]

Do not ever try to challenge the all time great just based on him getting blocked " twice" by a young guy luckily.

I'm being French here but this Gobert kid is for real

[romain.star]

Certainly. I did

Hum, so you will then have to agree that Kawhi can play under pressure

[DarrinS]

Poor fundamentals

[pgardn]

Lack of the ability to penetrate to open up the passing game. Opponents are playing the passing lanes because there is really no need to help, we can't break them down man to man. It all starts there. Because we are unable to penetrate we get a lot of contested shots and turnovers, the defense is exposed, and we get behind and force the issue which just gets worse. A team can play through this and win a few games (see Bulls without Rose), but it takes an extraordinary amount of effort on D.

Basketball becomes much simpler for the opponent when your team is no threat to make a layup off of set plays. Pop is really gonna have to work some magic with screens because we can't penetrate, we are working harder on offense than the opponent is on defense. This is where we need to have KL or Green take on a role they cannot yet fill. Parker is not getting it done, for whatever reason, and Manu just in spurts. Patty is a shooting guard and Joseph is way too slow on offense to actually put the team on his dribbling back. Parker looks mud slow and when he does on occasion get by, he has no legs to finish.

Pop has a task ahead.

[mkurts]

The entire team has drastically declined apart from Duncan, previously we could count on Parker to do his regular season MVP thing but now no longer.

Nil motivation, lazy fat bench, lack of practice and zilch fitness as well as the rise of unbenchable Porker is killing this team.

[Brazil]

:lol all is on parker tbh... Splitter playing like shit, Leonard unable to hit the side of a barn, Bobo thinking he is playing for the bobcats, Manu playing like he is 37 y/o, even when he is not on the floor this is fault tbh

[Russo21]

Shake the starting line-up up and see what happens. Ginobili came off the bench in his prime, pretty much all his career and never cared much. Time to reverse the roles. Maybe try this with Tony and have him get his game back against second string point guards instead of playing mainly against a fantastic bunch of PG's that are in the league.

Splitter
Duncan
Green
Ginobili
Joseph

then bring in

Baynes
Diaw
Leonard
Mills
Parker

Whoever is 'on' can finish off the game depending on a game by game basis.

[jag]

There was always going to be a drop off in intensity and focus after the run last postseason. You can't reproduce the motivation that came after losing game 6.

1) motivation is lacking
2) injuries throughout the season
3) Tony looks old, out of shape and generally just worn down. He looked bad during the playoffs and looks even worse now
4) overall lack of caring about losses (some of this is on Pop)

[tholdren]

Hum, did you watch last year playoffs run?

Great point if we were talking about last year. There's time to turn it around but right now he sucks. He isn't a 1 or 2 guy he's a third option. He isn't a superstar. Hell he's not even a carmelo anthony

[hater]

missing their real coach, coach Bud. Have a circus for a supporting coaching staff.

[UZER]

Parker never developed a dead eye midrange jumper. Its pretty much hit and miss game to game.

He's had years to develop one but spent too much time playing international ball. Now that he can't out-quick guys, his game has really suffered.

[EVAY]

Here's a response.

Starters:

We have NO go-to shooter. There is not one single player on the team who we know can get and make his shot when we really need one. Not Tim, not Tony, not Manu, not Kawhi, not Patty, not Marco, not Danny.

Tim is the most dominant player on our team, even at his advanced age. Having said that though, he can no longer dominate the opposing big men like he once did. They are younger, more athletic, and they are skilled. At this point he is the best role player on a team of role players.

Baynes/Splitter bring different things to the court; neither of them brings a complete game. Tiago shows limited mobility, idiotic shot selection and an unwillingness to fight for the ball. Baynes has good mobility, sets good screens, apparently has the basketball I.Q. of a gnat, but can actually make some shots occasionally, best away from the rim. Each of them is no better than a role player.

Danny Green has an up and down game that has always been streaky offensively, which is exacerbated this season by Pop's irregular rotation patterns and quick hook when Danny messes up defensively. He has improved defensively this year, but he is not a go-to guy. He is a role player.

Kawhi has not shown himself able to "take over games" in the regular season on a regular basis. He has moments of brilliant play, interspersed with stretches of offensive passivity and/ or inability to score. He is improving, I think, but at this point, he too remains a role player.

Tony's problems this season are well and truly beaten to death in this forum. He is also no more than a role player any more (it is not necessary to re-litigate whether he was or wan't at any time in the past - this is right here and now). His speed has diminished, his shots are not falling, and he has shown no more interest in excelling than a third stringer on most teams.

Manu (Included here because he is more than just a sixth man) has completely fallen off the cliff regarding three point shots and free throws. He USED to be the guy that the team could count on for free throws, regardless of what else was going on. His decision making remains baffling at times (as when he took a pull-up three with about 20 seconds left in the shot clock last night after not being able to make any at all and when there was no one under the basket wearing our uniform). He is always thinking, always trying to figure out how to help, but he can't play more than 15-20 minutes total at all anymore, and many of those minutes are filled with poor shooting and turnovers. A very serviceable role player, but now way a g0-to guy.

Backups:

Marco and Patty and exist to shoot threes and neither of them can get it done with any consistency this year.

Cory Joseph can look terrific for periods of time when he is a back up but gets passive and indecisive on offense. Best defender of any of our guards right now and may be the best pg on the team. That is a terrible statement because he is not starting material for a playoff contending team.

CONCLUSION: We are a team of role players with no star to guide or deliver us, and none of our role players has stepped up in the way the did last year.

Plus, our offense from last year has been scouted beyond belief and the other teams know how to defend what they didn't know how to defend last year.

We have no three point shooting to count on, and that is what we counted on last year.

COACHES: They are a mess this year. I wish we had never gotten Messina, and Pop seems not to care too much himself. If he doesn't, why should anyone else?

[hater]

Here's a response.

Starters:

We have NO go-to shooter. There is not one single player on the team who we know can get and make his shot when we really need one. Not Tim, not Tony, not Manu, not Kawhi, not Patty, not Marco, not Danny.

Tim is the most dominant player on our team, even at his advanced age. Having said that though, he can no longer dominate the opposing big men like he once did. They are younger, more athletic, and they are skilled. At this point he is the best role player on a team of role players.

Baynes/Splitter bring different things to the court; neither of them brings a complete game. Tiago shows limited mobility, idiotic shot selection and an unwillingness to fight for the ball. Baynes has good mobility, sets good screens, apparently has the basketball I.Q. of a gnat, but can actually make some shots occasionally, best away from the rim. Each of them is no better than a role player.

Danny Green has an up and down game that has always been streaky offensively, which is exacerbated this season by Pop's irregular rotation patterns and quick hook when Danny messes up defensively. He has improved defensively this year, but he is not a go-to guy. He is a role player.

Kawhi has not shown himself able to "take over games" in the regular season on a regular basis. He has moments of brilliant play, interspersed with stretches of offensive passivity and/ or inability to score. He is improving, I think, but at this point, he too remains a role player.

Tony's problems this season are well and truly beaten to death in this forum. He is also no more than a role player any more (it is not necessary to re-litigate whether he was or wan't at any time in the past - this is right here and now). His speed has diminished, his shots are not falling, and he has shown no more interest in excelling than a third stringer on most teams.

Manu (Included here because he is more than just a sixth man) has completely fallen off the cliff regarding three point shots and free throws. He USED to be the guy that the team could count on for free throws, regardless of what else was going on. His decision making remains baffling at times (as when he took a pull-up three with about 20 seconds left in the shot clock last night after not being able to make any at all and when there was no one under the basket wearing our uniform). He is always thinking, always trying to figure out how to help, but he can't play more than 15-20 minutes total at all anymore, and many of those minutes are filled with poor shooting and turnovers. A very serviceable role player, but now way a g0-to guy.

Backups:

Marco and Patty and exist to shoot threes and neither of them can get it done with any consistency this year.

Cory Joseph can look terrific for periods of time when he is a back up but gets passive and indecisive on offense. Best defender of any of our guards right now and may be the best pg on the team. That is a terrible statement because he is not starting material for a playoff contending team.

CONCLUSION: We are a team of role players with no star to guide or deliver us, and none of our role players has stepped up in the way the did last year.

Plus, our offense from last year has been scouted beyond belief and the other teams know how to defend what they didn't know how to defend last year.

We have no three point shooting to count on, and that is what we counted on last year.

COACHES: They are a mess this year. I wish we had never gotten Messina, and Pop seems not to care too much himself. If he doesn't, why should anyone else?

great post. Agree with many things here. I think you must make the distinction of "go-to shooter" and "player that creates his own shot". we still have go-to shooters: Ferrari Belinelli, Green (I still trust their shot)

the problem is we have no "player that creates" either for himself or others. In the past we had Parker. This season Parker is missing. that is why I always clamor "this team goes as far as MVParker takes em"


Also great point about the coaches. You constantly see Messina or Udoka talking to Pop during the game. seems like Pop doesn't give a fuck anymore. You rarely saw Marks, Bud or Brown talking that much to Pop.

[Malik Hairston]

Last year's regular season:

http://i59.tinypic.com/154ktbt.png

Last year's playoffs:

http://i62.tinypic.com/vsni52.jpg

[Malik Hairston]

^^Spurs have literally been worse with Babar on the floor for over a year now..

2014 regular season, 2014 playoffs and now the 2015 regular season..

[RD2191]

^^Spurs have literally been worse with Babar on the floor for over a year now..

2014 regular season, 2014 playoffs and now the 2015 regular season..
Some people are still in denial. No idea what else you can show them.

[GrandeDavid]

Lack of passion, poor point guard play on both sides of the ball and indifferent coaching.

[Chinook]

Spurs needed to add some talent, and for the second year in a row, the neglected to do so. They haven't had the depth and upside that they have had in past. They're essentially wasting the bottom third of their roster on guys like Baynes, Ayres, Bonner, Daye/Williams and Anderson (who woulnd't be a waste at all if they actually played him). They needed to clean out some of that in order to continue to grow their talent base.

[Plum Island]

Some people are still in denial. No idea what else you can show them.
Besides the posters with an OBVIOUS agenda- who is denying it?
All I see is the very few posters who go all out to defend MVParker (and you know as well as I they're doing it to piss people off), and everyone else knowing what the hell is going on.

Seriously. Malik's up in every thread with the same post like he's performing a public service announcement.
Everyone knows, dickface.

[Plum Island]

Besides the posters with an OBVIOUS agenda- who is denying it?
All I see is the very few posters who go all out to defend MVParker (and you know as well as I they're doing it to piss people off), and everyone else knowing what the hell is going on.

Seriously. Malik's up in every thread with the same post like he's performing a public service announcement.
Everyone knows, dickface.

Honestly- Anderson's D on PG's probably wouldn't be much worse, if at all than Parker's right now.
I'd throw that old boy into the mix. Put his feet to the fire for a few games. See what happens.

[Johnny RIngo]

Spurs needed to add some talent, and for the second year in a row, the neglected to do so. They haven't had the depth and upside that they have had in past. They're essentially wasting the bottom third of their roster on guys like Baynes, Ayres, Bonner, Daye/Williams and Anderson (who woulnd't be a waste at all if they actually played him). They needed to clean out some of that in order to continue to grow their talent base.

The front office really fucked up, didn't they? That horrible $45 mil contract that most of us KNEW Parker wouldn't live up to, the wastefulness when it comes to usage of the MLE. They played it safe and conservative(while overvaluing their own talent like TP) and now they're getting burned for it. Spurs aren't a top heavy team like most champions of the past - we needed a group effort to win the title last year. If even a few of those role players drop off(whether due to injuries or poor play) this team won't be able to endure it. That brutal December stretch was proof enough. We're seeing the same thing now in the road trip. Wasting all those roster spots on D-League talent is insulting to the fans that watch these games.

[MateoNeygro]

Lack of the ability to penetrate to open up the passing game. Opponents are playing the passing lanes because there is really no need to help, we can't break them down man to man. It all starts there. Because we are unable to penetrate we get a lot of contested shots and turnovers, the defense is exposed, and we get behind and force the issue which just gets worse. A team can play through this and win a few games (see Bulls without Rose), but it takes an extraordinary amount of effort on D.

Basketball becomes much simpler for the opponent when your team is no threat to make a layup off of set plays. Pop is really gonna have to work some magic with screens because we can't penetrate, we are working harder on offense than the opponent is on defense. This is where we need to have KL or Green take on a role they cannot yet fill. Parker is not getting it done, for whatever reason, and Manu just in spurts. Patty is a shooting guard and Joseph is way too slow on offense to actually put the team on his dribbling back. Parker looks mud slow and when he does on occasion get by, he has no legs to finish.

Pop has a task ahead.

PERFECT. I feel like it's all on our inability to beat anybody one on one to even open up looks. Defenders stay home and our offense is fucked. It's really simple from my view point and I have faith in this team but I honestly don't think it's all that easy to fix. All this about our guys being in shooting slumps is true but that's a product of the offense being stagnant. These guys just aren't getting open shots like they're accustomed to.

[Johnny RIngo]

PERFECT. I feel like it's all on our inability to beat anybody one on one to even open up looks. Defenders stay home and our offense is fucked. It's really simple from my view point and I have faith in this team but I honestly don't think it's all that easy to fix. All this about our guys being in shooting slumps is true but that's a product of the offense being stagnant. These guys just aren't getting open shots like they're accustomed to.

And yet we decided to give a $45 mil extension to a point guard that can't penetrate, shoot, or make plays for his teammates. The only thing TP is good at this year is hitting wide open corner threes. He's Bruce Bowen without any of the defensive impact.

[Chinook]

The front office really fucked up, didn't they? That horrible $45 mil contract that most of us KNEW Parker wouldn't live up to, the wastefulness when it comes to usage of the MLE. They played it safe and conservative(while overvaluing their own talent like TP) and now they're getting burned for it. Spurs aren't a top heavy team like most champions of the past - we needed a group effort to win the title last year. If even a few of those role players drop off(whether due to injuries or poor play) this team won't be able to endure it. That brutal December stretch was proof enough. We're seeing the same thing now in the road trip. Wasting all those roster spots on D-League talent is insulting to the fans that watch these games.

The only reason why the window reopened was because they got a MAJOR talent infusion gifted to them four years ago. Leonard was planned for, but pretty much the rest of their top eight (not counting the Big Three, of course) fell into their laps. It made no sense to pick Daye ahead of Bertans or even LJC. They needed room to improve as a roster, and because they didn't add anyone new, they really only could decline.

To top it all, Kawhi being a top option is just killing the offense. Even when he scores well, it just disrupts everyone's flow. Instead of him getting better in his role, they've made him into Melo-line, and there's no one to be old-Kawhi anymore.

[Malik Hairston]

The only reason why the window reopened was because they got a MAJOR talent infusion gifted to them four years ago. Leonard was planned for, but pretty much the rest of their top eight (not counting the Big Three, of course) fell into their laps. It made no sense to pick Daye ahead of Bertans or even LJC. They needed room to improve as a roster, and because they didn't add anyone new, they really only could decline.

To top it all, Kawhi being a top option is just killing the offense. Even when he scores well, it just disrupts everyone's flow. Instead of him getting better in his role, they've made him into Melo-line, and there's no one to be old-Kawhi anymore.

Isn't Pop the reason that all Spurs players are decent, though?

I thought his magical system turns any shitty player into a winner:lol..

[MateoNeygro]

And yet we decided to give a $45 mil extension to a point guard that can't penetrate, shoot, or make plays for his teammates. The only thing TP is good at this year is hitting wide open corner threes. He's Bruce Bowen without any of the defensive impact.

Can't explain that one. Maybe they believed he would age gracefully like Tim and Manu? The writing was on the wall in last years playoffs so I'm not even sure what they were doing. It's hard to deny(even as a huge Spurs fan) that the situation is dire.

[Raven]

Manu has been perfectly fine, the problem is elsewhere.

[MateoNeygro]

Besides the posters with an OBVIOUS agenda- who is denying it?
All I see is the very few posters who go all out to defend MVParker (and you know as well as I they're doing it to piss people off), and everyone else knowing what the hell is going on.

Seriously. Malik's up in every thread with the same post like he's performing a public service announcement.
Everyone knows, dickface.

LOL I don't know why but your use of dickface made me laugh...I'm 28

[Chinook]

Isn't Pop the reason that all Spurs players are decent, though?

I thought his magical system turns any shitty player into a winner:lol..

Dude's declined hard core this year. The players know he has no more idea what it takes to win B2B titles than anyone else there.

I've always found it hilarious how Pop constantly downplays his role to the media while also making gobs of money from his contract. I believe he may be the highest paid coach in the league still.

[Johnny RIngo]

Can't explain that one. Maybe they believed he would age gracefully like Tim and Manu? The writing was on the wall in last years playoffs so I'm not even sure what they were doing. It's hard to deny(even as a huge Spurs fan) that the situation is dire.

Which would be naive and stupid on their part. Tony never had anywhere near the talent or bball IQ that those two possessed. They're two of the most impactful players in NBA history. Parker's impact(even going back to his prime years) has always been mediocre in comparison. It only makes sense that he'd suffer the typical decline that happens to most NBA players in their early 30s.

Everybody laughed at the Lakers for that Kobe contract. Spurs deserve the same for giving Tony one of the worst contracts in the league. This is what happens when you ignore analytics - stupid decisions and bad contracts. Sad to see Spurs making the same mistakes as one of the dumbest franchises in the league.

[hater]

Manu has been perfectly fine

:lmao

Evita is leading the league in Turnovers (players below 26mpg)

he's also shooting career lows in FTs and TS%

he's also 2nd only to to Kobe Bryant in 4th quarter turnovers :lol

:lmao perfectly fine

[MateoNeygro]

Which would be naive and stupid on their part. Tony never had anywhere near the talent or bball IQ that those two possessed. They're two of the most impactful players in NBA history. Parker's impact(even going back to his prime years) has always been mediocre in comparison. It only makes sense that he'd suffer the typical decline that happens to most NBA players in their early 30s.

Everybody laughed at the Lakers for that Kobe contract. Spurs deserve the same for giving Tony one of the worst contracts in the league. This is what happens when you ignore analytics - stupid decisions and bad contracts. Sad to see Spurs making the same mistakes as one of the dumbest franchises in the league.

Like I said the writing was on the wall. It's a damn shame. Maybe at the same time they believed and rightly so that no big name would sign here anyway so they kept what they had??? Just being devil's advocate.

[Malik Hairston]

^^it was just a matter of simple loyalty IMO..

[Raven]

:lmao

Evita is leading the league in Turnovers (players below 26mpg)

he's also shooting career lows in FTs and TS%

he's also 2nd only to to Kobe Bryant in 4th quarter turnovers :lol

:lmao perfectly fine

yeah because there's so many players that handle the ball constantly while playing less than 26 minutes :lol

[Malik Hairston]

Manu is playing poorly, but he was having a solid season until the December of hell, tbh..

[hater]

yeah because there's so many players that handle the ball constantly while playing less than 26 minutes :lol

Jeremy Lin is having better season :lol

[MateoNeygro]

^^it was just a matter of simple loyalty IMO..

I'd say it's a mixture of both.

[Johnny RIngo]

Like I said the writing was on the wall. It's a damn shame. Maybe at the same time they believed and rightly so that no big name would sign here anyway so they kept what they had??? Just being devil's advocate.

Tony only had one year remaining last summer - a contract like that is easily moveable and his stock hadn't fallen to poisonous levels yet. Might have even gotten a decent return. Could have went after someone like Lowry. If you're going to have a fat point guard on the team, might as well be one that can actually play basketball at a high level.

[Johnny RIngo]

Jeremy Lin is having better season :lol

According to who? You? Nobody gives a shit about your garbage takes.

[hater]

According to who? You? Nobody gives a shit about your garbage takes.

check the #s. Lin is playing less minutes and putting up better numbers :lol

[Malik Hairston]

According to who? You? Nobody gives a shit about your garbage takes.

:lmao..

[Raven]

Jeremy Lin is having better season :lol
is that so? :lol not surprisingly, you're cancerneli's biggest homer :lol

[hater]

is that so? :lol not surprisingly, you're cancerneli's biggest homer :lol

yup Lin is shooting better FG, FTs and 3PTs. Playing less minutes giving up less turnovers and contributing more blocks than Evita while equaling in assists.

:lol shortbus

[Raven]

yup Lin is shooting better FG, FTs and 3PTs. Playing less minutes giving up less turnovers and contributing more blocks than Evita while equaling in assists.

:lol shortbus

how about the net rating, defensive rating and adjusting the numbers to garbage time statpadding? :lol

[Johnny RIngo]

check the #s. Lin is playing less minutes and putting up better numbers :lol

Stat-padding on one of the worst teams in the NBA doesn't mean much to me. Of course, leave it to a Parker fan to rely on nothing more than select box score numbers.

PER:
16.3 - Manu
14.6 - Lin

WS/48:
.104 - Manu
.054 - Lin

BPM:
+1.2 - Manu
-1.4 - Lin

RPM:
3.53 - Manu
0.05 - Lin

[hater]

how about the net rating, defensive rating and adjusting the numbers to garbage time statpadding? :lol

Sure Manu has a slight advantage defensively. But the turnovers might kill it tbh. what good is a superior defender when he turns it over on the other end?

[Raven]

Sure Manu has a slight advantage defensively. But the turnovers might kill it tbh. what good is a superior defender when he turns it over on the other end?

Lin has a 109.5 drt, Manu has a 98.8 drt. "slight" :lol

[Raven]

and just for good measure, Manu has a higher net rating the James Harden :lol

[in2deep]

and just for good measure, Manu has a higher net rating the James Harden :lol

harden >>>>>>>>>>>>> manu

love manu but it's not even close

[EVAY]

And yet we decided to give a $45 mil extension to a point guard that ....etc....etc....etc.

Man, way to make a contribution that no one has mentioned before!!!:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse: deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse: deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse: deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse: deadhorse:

[hater]

and just for good measure, Manu has a higher net rating the James Harden :lol

which pretty much destroys your point of view :lol

[dbreiden83080]

Which would be naive and stupid on their part. Tony never had anywhere near the talent or bball IQ that those two possessed. They're two of the most impactful players in NBA history. Parker's impact(even going back to his prime years) has always been mediocre in comparison. It only makes sense that he'd suffer the typical decline that happens to most NBA players in their early 30s.

Everybody laughed at the Lakers for that Kobe contract. Spurs deserve the same for giving Tony one of the worst contracts in the league. This is what happens when you ignore analytics - stupid decisions and bad contracts. Sad to see Spurs making the same mistakes as one of the dumbest franchises in the league.

I am completely fine with the contract. Tony deserves to finish out his career in SA after all he's achieved. It would be crazy to see him in another uniform at this point. Spurs can start rebuilding through the draft when he is still on the team and he can mentor a young PG.. Tony has the class and pedigree to do that..

[mclinejr]

Nothing. We have 5 rings.

[ElNono]

Spurs needed to add some talent, and for the second year in a row, the neglected to do so. They haven't had the depth and upside that they have had in past. They're essentially wasting the bottom third of their roster on guys like Baynes, Ayres, Bonner, Daye/Williams and Anderson (who woulnd't be a waste at all if they actually played him). They needed to clean out some of that in order to continue to grow their talent base.

I thought you said the Spurs had the most talented roster in the league by a mile last season? Why the sudden change of heart? :lol

[ElNono]

According to who? You? Nobody gives a shit about your garbage takes.

http://shandyfiles.s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/images/body/thefumble/tumblr_lzxsyufYi61qfmgozo1_500.gif

[Chinook]

I thought you said the Spurs had the most talented roster in the league by a mile last season? Why the sudden change of heart? :lol

They did. But they got old and they did nothing to replace that talent. Their 1-10 is still elite from a 2K perspective, but they needed a better 11-15 to fill in the cracks.

Plus, Kawhi is just straight wrecking the team right now. It's at least as big of an issue as Parker's decline.

[ElNono]

They did. But they got old and they did nothing to replace that talent. Their 1-10 is still elite from a 2K perspective, but they needed a better 11-15 to fill in the cracks.

Plus, Kawhi is just straight wrecking the team right now. It's at least as big of an issue as Parker's decline.

How do you replace a Tony Parker who you just handed a 3 year deal? You're talking replacing at the top not at the bottom... Guys like Cojo and Baynes have been fine, considering their limited talent...

[Chinook]

How do you replace a Tony Parker who you just handed a 3 year deal? You're talking replacing at the top not at the bottom... Guys like Cojo and Baynes have been fine, considering their limited talent...

Cory's been more than fine, and he'd probably do better as a starter than Parker. Maybe Pop will start Manu and Tony and bring Cory and Danny off the bench, I dunno. They still have a gaping hole behind Leonard that they could have filled realtively easily. They're big man rotation is still lacking anyone who can score one-on-one consistently. It's just been a mess.

[Clipper Nation]

Johnny RIngo (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4414) is having a historic run right now... he's on that 2003 Tim Duncan, 2012 Joe Flacco, 2012 Jonathan Quick, 2014 Madison Bumgarner level at the moment. These types of streaks don't happen very often. :wow

[RD2191]

Johnny RIngo (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4414) is having a historic run right now... he's on that 2003 Tim Duncan, 2012 Joe Flacco, 2012 Jonathan Quick, 2014 Madison Bumgarner level at the moment. These types of streaks don't happen very often. :wow
:lol

[GSH]

When big men age, they either get forced into retirement, or they learn how to score more from the outside than they used to. Antonio McDyess was a good example of that, but there are lots of them over the years. Tim can't dominate the middle like he did. He's still a good player - a very good player - and he still gets good numbers. But he isn't playing the same game anymore. He gets shut down in the blocks by players that he would have eaten alive just a few years ago. He doesn't draw double teams like he did. All the things that allowed him to make his teammates better.

Parker may be playing hurt, I don't know. But he can't get the corner on defenders right now - not with any consistency. Not nearly often enough.

Manu is like an old golfer. They can still dazzle, for a round or two. Enough to make you think that they are still the player they once were. But they can't do it for four rounds in a row, to win a tournament. Manu still has flashes of brilliance, but he's not the dependable go-to player that he was. If you don't believe that he really has lost something, pay close attention to how often the defenders are refusing to bite on his pump-fakes. He's not as quick, not as sharp, and not as intimidating. The announcers used to laugh at how guys must not have read the scouting report, because they just kept biting on his pump fake. It's not fooling them anymore. At least not the better players. He used to be so quick that they just reacted out of instinct. He's not that quick now, and he's having to work more for what he gets. There was a time when the other players KNEW he was going left, but couldn't stop him from doing it. Now they can, as often as not.

It would help if Tim would/could put that 15-footer-off-the-glass back into his arsenal. He used to shoot it a lot, and he was almost automatic with it. The angle is different, because it's off the glass. And if he could force defenders to respect that shot, he could get some space with fakes. He still won't dominate the paint like he used to, but he could at least force some help defense, which would open the other guys up more.

Tony needs to find that floater he used to shoot. That shot forces defenders to meet him further from the glass, or give up the floater uncontested. Right now, opposing defenses are playing their game, and camping in the Spurs passing lanes. Since Parker can't consistently take it to the hole (at least right now), that floater would at least force the defenses to react a little more, and keep them from collapsing on him in the paint quite as much. But mostly he needs to be able to get the corner, and actually get out AHEAD on the fast break. I don't know if that is coming back or not. But if it isn't, it's going to be a short post-season.

Manu should... consider what he wants to do next. He's always had so much junk in his game. He's not going to re-make himself at this point. And he can't be who he used to be on a consistent basis. If you're happy seeing him do it occasionally, enjoy yourself. But don't bitch about the other nights. It was a pleasure and a privilege to watch him all these years.

[DMC]

There are reasons one or two people are playing poorly, but the reason the entire team is rests on Pop. It has to. Pop is not pushing guys to improve, guys are slacking off, they see the end of the tunnel and think Pop won't be there anyhow.

[Johnny RIngo]

I am completely fine with the contract. Tony deserves to finish out his career in SA after all he's achieved. It would be crazy to see him in another uniform at this point. Spurs can start rebuilding through the draft when he is still on the team and he can mentor a young PG.. Tony has the class and pedigree to do that..

Tony doesn't deserve shit. He's not a transcendent star like Duncan. The Spurs were more than willing to trade Bruce at the end of his career. Tony doesn't deserve any special treatment either. Especially after he gave up on the team back in 2011 with the BS "we're not contenders anymore" comments. Not to mention his career as an unreliable playoff performer.

Parker as a mentor? Tony isn't Robinson. He's a selfish heroballer - A French Kobe. Guys like that make for poor teachers. Cojo's a good example. Tony hasn't done shit for his development. He's stunted it more than anything after Cojo showed a lot of promise back in December.

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol all is on parker tbh... Splitter playing like shit, Leonard unable to hit the side of a barn, Bobo thinking he is playing for the bobcats, Manu playing like he is 37 y/o, even when he is not on the floor this is fault tbh
:lol

[Johnny RIngo]

They did. But they got old and they did nothing to replace that talent. Their 1-10 is still elite from a 2K perspective, but they needed a better 11-15 to fill in the cracks.

Plus, Kawhi is just straight wrecking the team right now. It's at least as big of an issue as Parker's decline.

The front office was incredibly lazy this year. I can understand wanting to keep the team together but there's nothing wrong with upgrading shit talent like Ayres/Daye/etc. I find it hard to believe they couldn't find anyone better than those two with the MLE.

[TheGreatYacht]

What's worse? Richard Jefferson's contract or Manu earning $14,000,000 in 2013?

One was a shitty contract when the Spurs weren't contenders, the other one cost the Spurs a ship + handicapped them from signing role players

[dbreiden83080]

Tony doesn't deserve shit. He's not a transcendent star like Duncan. The Spurs were more than willing to trade Bruce at the end of his career. Tony doesn't deserve any special treatment either. Especially after he gave up on the team back in 2011 with the BS "we're not contenders anymore" comments. Not to mention his career as an unreliable playoff performer.

How the fuck did you just compare Bruce Bowen to Tony Parker? Bowen bounced all over the NBA and would have been out of the league long before he actually did retire had Pop not found such a good use for him in his system..




Parker as a mentor? Tony isn't Robinson. He's a selfish heroballer - A French Kobe. Guys like that make for poor teachers. Cojo's a good example. Tony hasn't done shit for his development. He's stunted it more than anything after Cojo showed a lot of promise back in December.

I can see this will be a total waste of my time..

[TheGreatYacht]

How the fuck did you just compare Bruce Bowen to Tony Parker? Bowen bounced all over the NBA and would have been out of the league long before he actually did retire had Pop not found such a good use for him in his system..




I can see this will be a total waste of my time..
Dude has autism. Just learn to ignore him like we all have

[Johnny RIngo]

What's worse? Richard Jefferson's contract or Manu earning $14,000,000 in 2013?

One was a shitty contract when the Spurs weren't contenders, the other one cost the Spurs a ship + handicapped them from signing role players

Neither are as bad as Tony's $45 mil deal which has yet to kick in.

[Malik Hairston]

Bowen was all-NBA defensive 2nd team prior to joining the Spurs, he wasn't a scrub:lol..

[Chinook]

I am completely fine with the contract. Tony deserves to finish out his career in SA after all he's achieved. It would be crazy to see him in another uniform at this point. Spurs can start rebuilding through the draft when he is still on the team and he can mentor a young PG.. Tony has the class and pedigree to do that..

No team was going to pay him that much. I agree that Parker "deserves" to be a Spurs, but even Duncan waited until the off-season to see what the Spurs could get in free agency before signing a deal that made the numbers work. Parker could have done the same thing and still made off with a nice payday. As it is, his contract pretty much killed free agency for the next two years. He didn't deserve the max the team could give him for his final years.

No other Spurs got that big of a contract at this stage of their career (decline, not age). Not David, not Tim, not Manu.

[Chinook]

Neither are as bad as Tony's $45 mil deal which has yet to kick in.

I knew you were going to jump on that. TGY tossing softballs.

[Malik Hairston]

No team was going to pay him that much. I agree that Parker "deserves" to be a Spurs, but even Duncan waited until the off-season to see what the Spurs could get in free agency before signing a deal that made the numbers work. Parker could have done the same thing and still made off with a nice payday. As it is, his contract pretty much killed free agency for the next two years. He didn't deserve the max the team could give him for his final years.

No other Spurs got that big of a contract at this stage of their career (decline, not age). Not David, not Tim, not Manu.

Realistically, although the Spurs would probably never trade him, do you think any team would bite and take Parker?

[dbreiden83080]

Bowen was all-NBA defensive 2nd team prior to joining the Spurs, he wasn't a scrub:lol..

From 1997-2001 he played for the Heat, Boston, Philli and back to the Heat. He was also traded to Chicago and immediately waved by them.

[timtonymanu]

Yeah let's give Tony a 43 million dollar contract to play the Jacque Vaughn mentor role. :lmao

[Malik Hairston]

From 1997-2001 he played for the Heat, Boston, Philli and back to the Heat. He was also traded to Chicago and immediately waved by them.

I know, but he made the 2nd all-NBA D team with Miami in his final year, he made something of himself prior to joining the Spurs..

[dbreiden83080]

No team was going to pay him that much. I agree that Parker "deserves" to be a Spurs, but even Duncan waited until the off-season to see what the Spurs could get in free agency before signing a deal that made the numbers work. Parker could have done the same thing and still made off with a nice payday. As it is, his contract pretty much killed free agency for the next two years. He didn't deserve the max the team could give him for his final years.

No other Spurs got that big of a contract at this stage of their career (decline, not age). Not David, not Tim, not Manu.

We can blame the Spurs for offering that much I suppose but he was never going anywhere and was always going to count for a lot on the books.. It is like the Yanks overpaying for Jeter late in his career.. He had done a lot and it was mostly loyalty and seeing to it he ended his career there..

[Johnny RIngo]

How the fuck did you just compare Bruce Bowen to Tony Parker? Bowen bounced all over the NBA and would have been out of the league long before he actually did retire had Pop not found such a good use for him in his system..




I can see this will be a total waste of my time..

Problem here is you're seriously overrating Tony while at the same time underrating Bruce. He was, overall, more important than Tony in the 2003 and 2005 title runs.

[Chinook]

Realistically, although the Spurs would probably never trade him, do you think any team would bite and take Parker?

Yes. I think Sacramento would welcome him would open arms. Brooklyn would probably take him for one of their horrible contracts.

[dbreiden83080]

I know, but he made the 2nd all-NBA D team with Miami in his final year, he made something of himself prior to joining the Spurs..

With his limitations he needed to play for a coach that had a system he fit into perfectly.. He could never play for an offensive minded team he just would never get the minutes. Those early Spurs teams especially were all about grinding you down on D.. By 2003 to his credit he added that corner 3 to give them something on offense.

[elbamba]

I wish the Spurs would bring Anderson back instead of Williams. I know that he is not going to be a difference maker this year but get him playing against NBA talent already.

This season cannot be pinned on any one player. The team collectively looks worse. Tony and KL still look injured. Tiago has been a shell of his former self. Danny Green is on a month long shooting drought. Mills has the attitude but his shot isn't there and I am not sure it can come back in time. Manu is just old and gives us a good game every 3-5 games.

The Spurs have given me more than I could have hoped for after we went down to the Grizz several years ago. Who would have thought a WCF and two finals appearances after that debacle? I hope we can get our shit together and make one last run at least to the second round but after this year it is over. Tim might come back but the Spurs will need to be in full rebuild mode. The good news is we might get a decent pick this year because it looks like maybe ten teams might have a better record than us when it is all said and done.

[dbreiden83080]

Problem here is you're seriously overrating Tony while at the same time underrating Bruce. He was, overall, more important than Tony in the 2003 and 2005 title runs.

Absolutely not.. Utter nonsense.. A season is about more than what happens in the NBA finals..

[Johnny RIngo]

Yeah let's give Tony a 43 million dollar contract to play the Jacque Vaughn mentor role. :lmao

pretty much. Impact is similar too at this point in Tony's career.

Vaughn career BPM: -4.2
2015 Parker BPM: -3.0

[DMC]

You cannot bring guys back who hinted they didn't want to be here. Anderson is a low rent guy, he doesn't answer anything.

[Malik Hairston]

Yes. I think Sacramento would welcome him would open arms. Brooklyn would probably take him for one of their horrible contracts.

I could see Sacramento with that front office + George Karl speaks fondly of Parker(and Karl doesn't care about age/current reputation, as he just added the terrible Andre Miller due to their relationship:lol)..anybody interest you on that roster?

[EVAY]

Manu's 14M in 2013, Tim's 22M in 2011, and Tony's 15M this year. One could look at these numbers and begin to conclude that there is an inverse relationship between contract worth and performance for that year. Somehow the team has survived all of them (although this year is still in doubt). When Tim's decline was obvious Pop moved the offensive heavy lifting to Tony. When Tony's decline is obvious, Pop is moving the offensive heavy lifting to..............????? Kawhi? Doesn't look like it does it?

That is the real tragedy here, imo. Not the amount of dollars, because the dollar amount can be eaten if management decides it is worth it. That is not a decision for the player to make. The tragedy here is that there is no one to pick up the offensive load this year when Tony just can't seem to put it together. That is, I believe, what Pop is talking about when he says that if Tony isn't the Tony of 2013, the team will go nowhere. Because NO one can score to make up what Tony used to score. But of course, if Tony WERE able to do that, he would be heroballing and destroying the team, so clearly that is not a good idea either.

Contract numbers are nothing but a shiny object distracting folks from focusing on the fact that nobody on the Spurs team is having even an average year shooting. They are ALL down. When an entire team is unable to put the ball in the basket at a clip approximating previous years, doesn't the coaching staff and FO have some responsibilities to make changes?

[Chinook]

We can blame the Spurs for offering that much I suppose but he was never going anywhere and was always going to count for a lot on the books.. It is like the Yanks overpaying for Jeter late in his career.. He had done a lot and it was mostly loyalty and seeing to it he ended his career there..

It makes a difference. Tony getting paid $40M/4 may not seem like a much better deal than him getting $41.25M/3, but the difference is actually pretty important. That $4 Million-plus is the difference between having a max slot to offer post Duncan and barely having cap space. It's kind of a big deal that Parker took up that extra money, Spurs-for-life or not.

[Chinook]

I could see Sacramento with that front office + George Karl speaks fondly of Parker(and Karl doesn't care about age/current reputation, as he just added the terrible Andre Miller due to their relationship:lol)..anybody interest you on that roster?

Dat draft pick. I would also take Collison and Landry back to get it.

[dbreiden83080]

It makes a difference. Tony getting paid $40M/4 may not seem like a much better deal than him getting $41.25M/3, but the difference is actually pretty important. That $4 Million-plus is the difference between having a max slot to offer post Duncan and barely having cap space. It's kind of a big deal that Parker took up that extra money, Spurs-for-life or not.

The team will never be rebuilt through FA. It has to be done in the draft..

[Chinook]

Manu's 14M in 2013, Tim's 22M in 2011, and Tony's 15M this year. One could look at these numbers and begin to conclude that there is an inverse relationship between contract worth and performance for that year. Somehow the team has survived all of them (although this year is still in doubt). When Tim's decline was obvious Pop moved the offensive heavy lifting to Tony. When Tony's decline is obvious, Pop is moving the offensive heavy lifting to..............????? Kawhi? Doesn't look like it does it?

That is the real tragedy here, imo. Not the amount of dollars, because the dollar amount can be eaten if management decides it is worth it. That is not a decision for the player to make. The tragedy here is that there is no one to pick up the offensive load this year when Tony just can't seem to put it together. That is, I believe, what Pop is talking about when he says that if Tony isn't the Tony of 2013, the team will go nowhere. Because NO one can score to make up what Tony used to score. But of course, if Tony WERE able to do that, he would be heroballing and destroying the team, so clearly that is not a good idea either.

Contract numbers are nothing but a shiny object distracting folks from focusing on the fact that nobody on the Spurs team is having even an average year shooting. They are ALL down. When an entire team is unable to put the ball in the basket at a clip approximating previous years, doesn't the coaching staff and FO have some responsibilities to make changes?

Two things, 1) Parker is only counting for $12.5M this season. 2) Tim and Manu's numbers are from the end of max-ish deals they signed while still in their relative prime. Tony's deal hasn't even started, and it already looks like a massive overpayment.

[Chinook]

The team will never be rebuilt through FA. It has to be done in the draft..

Completely unknowable. This off-season would have been the first time the team would have had a max slot since 2003. Plus, it's not like maxing out Parker helps rebuild through the draft any better than re-signing him for less during the summer. Unless you think that using up that much cap space on Tony is the best way to tank. You might have a point there :lol

[Johnny RIngo]

Manu's 14M in 2013, Tim's 22M in 2011, and Tony's 15M this year. One could look at these numbers and begin to conclude that there is an inverse relationship between contract worth and performance for that year. Somehow the team has survived all of them (although this year is still in doubt). When Tim's decline was obvious Pop moved the offensive heavy lifting to Tony. When Tony's decline is obvious, Pop is moving the offensive heavy lifting to..............????? Kawhi? Doesn't look like it does it?

That is the real tragedy here, imo. Not the amount of dollars, because the dollar amount can be eaten if management decides it is worth it. That is not a decision for the player to make. The tragedy here is that there is no one to pick up the offensive load this year when Tony just can't seem to put it together. That is, I believe, what Pop is talking about when he says that if Tony isn't the Tony of 2013, the team will go nowhere. Because NO one can score to make up what Tony used to score. But of course, if Tony WERE able to do that, he would be heroballing and destroying the team, so clearly that is not a good idea either.

Contract numbers are nothing but a shiny object distracting folks from focusing on the fact that nobody on the Spurs team is having even an average year shooting. They are ALL down. When an entire team is unable to put the ball in the basket at a clip approximating previous years, doesn't the coaching staff and FO have some responsibilities to make changes?

God, what an awful comparison. TD and Manu at their "low points" are still better value than the shitshow we're seeing from Tony this year:

2011 Duncan:

http://s5.postimg.org/vyirs4j9z/2011_Duncan.png

2013 Manu:

http://s5.postimg.org/7jajr2kd3/2013_Manu.png

2015 Parker

http://s5.postimg.org/m04w0d1xz/2015_Parker.png

[EVAY]

Two things, 1) Parker is only counting for $12.5M this season. 2) Tim and Manu's numbers are from the end of max-ish deals they signed while still in their relative prime. Tony's deal hasn't even started, and it already looks like a massive overpayment.

It may BE a massive overpayment. It may not. Yet to be seen. My point was that big time players are paid for far more than the current playing performance. Clearly, when Tim went down in his abilities and Parker picked up the slack, he wasn't being paid anywhere near what this upcoming contract is going to be worth. He wasn't being paid what the primary scorer on most teams was being paid back then. When Tim gave up his huge paydays, his decline was already obvious and he was no longer the dominant scorer for the team. Manu was being paid more than Parker when Parker was the teams' leading scorer and assist leader. But both Tim and Manu came back as significant contributors in major roles on the team, when the pressure for carrying the heaviest load was no longer on their shoulders.

The point is, there is no one to take that role from Tony's shoulders. So that big payday in that upcoming contract may occur during a resurgence for Parker not unlike what Tim and Manu have been able to achieve. But it won't happen without someone else picking up some scoring slack, and that someone does not seem to exist on our team right now. Clearly, the FO and a lot of people on this forum have assumed that that person would be Kawhi. It may yet happen. But we are all making assumptions about Parker's worth based on current performance and future pay, and extrapolating from that to disaster.

The disaster will be if no one on the damn team can put the ball in the basket. THAT will be a disaster. Right now, Tony can't, but neither can Manu, Tiago, Boris, Kawhi, Patty, etc. etc. etc.

An average of 14-15M per year is not a disaster. Lack of scoring is a disaster.

[EVAY]

God, what an awful comparison. TD and Manu at their "low points" are still better value than the shitshow we're seeing from Tony this year:

2011 Duncan:

http://s5.postimg.org/vyirs4j9z/2011_Duncan.png

2013 Manu:

http://s5.postimg.org/7jajr2kd3/2013_Manu.png

2015 Parker

http://s5.postimg.org/m04w0d1xz/2015_Parker.png



Sorry, but your focus is not on what my focus is on. That is not surprising since the ONLY thing you focus on is money and +/- figures.


My point was that in each year of the other big three's max year, they were having poor years for their careers. I didn't make a comparison between their worst year and Tony's worst year. I made the comparison between each of them having their biggest payday year with a below-career average for them for that year. It doesn't matter what the absolute numbers are, either for money or +/-.

You really do seem to have trouble seeing what someone else is saying because that blind spot you have for one player obliterates everything else in your field of potential vision.

[Chinook]

It may BE a massive overpayment.

It looks like one. That's what I said. It may end up not being one, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.


My point was that big time players are paid for far more than the current playing performance. Clearly, when Tim went down in his abilities and Parker picked up the slack, he wasn't being paid anywhere near what this upcoming contract is going to be worth.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Even if Tim and Manu were overpaid at the ends of their contracts (Tim especially wasn't), that would not justify Parker getting a new deal worth more than his current production called for. When Ginobili got his $40M/3 extension, he was still near the top of his game. He was coming off a great 2009-2010 season where he had a bit of a renaissance. Parker got his after being largely irrelevant last season.


The point is, there is no one to take that role from Tony's shoulders. So that big payday in that upcoming contract may occur during a resurgence for Parker not unlike what Tim and Manu have been able to achieve. But it won't happen without someone else picking up some scoring slack, and that someone does not seem to exist on our team right now.

And it's even less likely that that person will exist now that Parker took at least $4 Million more than he was worth. This isn't like Manu being "overpaid" two seasons ago. Parker's contract causes real harm to the Spurs' cap space.


An average of 14-15M per year is not a disaster. Lack of scoring is a disaster.

Getting paid that much to not score well is the disaster. Stop trying to separate Parker's deal from his performance. If he was playing well, his contract wouldn't be a big deal. But he's not (and hasn't for a couple of years), so the it is. He's not worth half his contract now. Maybe that will change because he'll have an Indian summer like Tim did. But it's not a smart bet to make at all, especially since there was no downside to waiting until July to reup him.

[fresnodog]

Running plays for kawhi. Hes became a ball hog. To much tweaking the line-up everyone healthy stick to 1! Ive never watched them play so bad.

[LittleCriminal]

Old

[eric365]

On offense:
- Parker playing like shit this year
- Kawhi having more reponsabilities but can't deliver
- No consistant playmaker.
- No go to player in tough situation
- Mills, Splitter, Diaw all mysteriouly declining
- Our shooters are having a bad year. But mainly because the playmakers (especially tony) are having a bad year and they don't have as much spacen as last year.

On D :
- Splitter not playing well
- Splitter not playing well
- Splitter not playing well

[Johnny RIngo]

Sorry, but your focus is not on what my focus is on. That is not surprising since the ONLY thing you focus on is money and +/- figures.


My point was that in each year of the other big three's max year, they were having poor years for their careers. I didn't make a comparison between their worst year and Tony's worst year. I made the comparison between each of them having their biggest payday year with a below-career average for them for that year. It doesn't matter what the absolute numbers are, either for money or +/-.

Tim didn't have a "poor year". He signed that extension in 2007 when he was the best damn player in the NBA(and playing at a level we've never seen from Parker). His 2011 numbers were down from previous years but he was still an elite NBA calibre big man. He finished the contract on a high note with his 2012 season.

Manu signed that three year extension in 2010 - coming off a great season. He looked like an MVP candidate in 2011. Dropped off in 2012 but still productive(and the most impactful player on the Spurs). 2013 was an off year but that's irrelevant considering he lived up to his contract in the first two years.

Tony still had a year remaining on his contract and was coming off his worst season since 2010. The decline was obvious. Despite this, they hand him that bloated deal that has yet to get started.


You really do seem to have trouble seeing what someone else is saying because that blind spot you have for one player obliterates everything else in your field of potential vision.

No your point is just shitty, period. If you want to suck Parker's dick, fine. Just don't drag Tim and Manu's name through the mud just to take the heat of Tony's historically bad year.

[EVAY]

It looks like one. That's what I said. It may end up not being one, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.



When Ginobili got his $40M/3 extension, he was still near the top of his game. He was coming off a great 2009-2010 season where he had a bit of a renaissance. Parker got his after being largely irrelevant last season.
.

Sorry. I thought that Parker's contract was signed last summer and I was under the impression that Tony was still the scoring and assist leader for the team for the 2013-2014 season.

Sorry if I am wrong about that.

[EVAY]

Tim didn't have a "poor year". He signed that extension in 2007 when he was the best damn player in the NBA(and playing at a level we've never seen from Parker). His 2011 numbers were down from previous years but he was still an elite NBA calibre big man. He finished the contract on a high note with his 2012 season.

Manu signed that three year extension in 2010 - coming off a great season. He looked like an MVP candidate in 2011. Dropped off in 2012 but still productive(and the most impactful player on the Spurs). 2013 was an off year but that's irrelevant considering he lived up to his contract in the first two years.

Tony still had a year remaining on his contract and was coming off his worst season since 2010. The decline was obvious. Despite this, they hand him that bloated deal that has yet to get started.



No your point is just shitty, period. If you want to suck Parker's dick, fine. Just don't drag Tim and Manu's name through the mud just to take the heat of Tony's historically bad year.

I was not referring to Tim's 2007 year, I was referring to his 2011 year, which was a below average year for him, and when he was being paid 22M. I didn't mind that payment then.

I have tried to be respectful to you regardless of your ad hominem attacks, but right now I just want you to GFY and take your vulgarity with you.

[Chinook]

Sorry. I thought that Parker's contract was signed last summer and I was under the impression that Tony was still the scoring and assist leader for the team for the 2013-2014 season.

Sorry if I am wrong about that.

:downspin:

[Johnny RIngo]

I was not referring to Tim's 2007 year, I was referring to his 2011 year, which was a below average year for him, and when he was being paid 22M. I didn't mind that payment then.

I have tried to be respectful to you regardless of your ad hominem attacks, but right now I just want you to GFY and take your vulgarity with you.

Tim signed a two year extension that would add on to an existing three year deal in 2007.

Extension with Spurs to take Duncan through 2011-12 season
October 31, 2007, 12:18 AM ET

He was the best damn player in the NBA when he signed that deal in '07. Parker was coming off his worst season in three years when he signed his $45 mil extension.

[SpursDynasty21]

I'm not giving up on the team, but if things don't turn around...could the Spurs be looking at a major shakeup after this season?

[in2deep]

I'm not giving up on the team, but if things don't turn around...could the Spurs be looking at a major shakeup after this season?

Duncan and Manu are retiring. I'm not sure what could be bigger.

[SpursDynasty21]

Duncan and Manu are retiring. I'm not sure what could be bigger.

I just meant a major roster shakeup. Duncan and Ginobili retiring would be a part of that.

[BackHome]

Only way we get better is through the draft and tanking so go get your
swimming trunks on..:)

[Legacy]

Motivation is severely down. It is the root of what ails the Spurs.

As one bemedalled Argie poster here said, "Motivation is one hell of a drug".

Motivation drove them to run over and murder the Miami Heat.

Motivation got them to run roughshood over the NBA.

Motivation even got a fat-ass Boris Diaw to play the best stretch of his basketball career.

Yep. This includes Poop.

[Legacy]

This is what I said right after the December from Hell.


I just don't see any other team (besides OKC) that could beat a healthy Spurs squad in a 7-game series. They just need to get their asses motivated. If they don't find a way, they will not repeat. We already know why they were so motivated last season/playoffs.