State of the Spurs

[SpurSwag]

I know there are a lot of threads discussing how terribly we've played, but I just wanted to make a thread to get some thoughts off my head and to realistically look at where we are without overreacting or anything.

1) As I'm writing this, I'm listening to the first take concerning whether we are done or not. Of everything I'm hearing, the thing I actually buy into the most is that our massive struggles really come from just not being able to hit shots. I'm not saying that our shooting is the only reason we are losing, but our shooting is probably the difference between being 2-5 on this trip or being 4-3. Between Marco, Patty, Danny, Manu, and Kawhi, no one has been able to hit a shot over the past month or 2.

2) We're the defending champs, Greg Popovich is our coach, and Tim Duncan is healthy and playing is playing at an extremely high level most nights. I've got to assume that, based on previous seasons, Pop is really gonna get into these guys to have some urgency, and that once some shots start falling and we can start piling up some wins at home, the morale will go up too. It looks to me that if we can finish this road trip 2-0 (a tough task considering how things have been going, but still) and then get back home, the team will start to come back together. It just doesn't make sense that this Spurs team is playing like this if they're healthy, I've gotta think its just a combination of low confidence and poor shooting.

3) Tony Parker. What the fuck. There are many posters who have disputed the notion that we need a good tony parker to be successful, but this recent stretch should be proof of why we need him. When the shots aren't falling, we need a player who can take the ball from the three point line into the paint for lay ups and play making. I can't remember who we were playing, but he was absolutely fantastic in one of the games on this trip in both his scoring and play making ( I think it was the Clippers game). I'm going to veer on the optimistic side and say that as the shooters regain their rhythm and as Tony continues to work off the few extra pounds he put on, his decline won't be as obvious as it is. Anyone hoping for 2012 Tony is going to be massively dissappointed, but he's better than the garbage we've seen the last few games. And even if he's not that much better, our team hitting their shots has a way of hiding his regression.

4) Kawhi. This is the head scratcher to me, what's going on? He has regressed terribly as an offensive player in all facets, even coming down to effort in my book. Our season won't turn around if he doesn't get it together, and its that simple. Duncan is still our rock and is probably still our best player, which is pretty sad tbh, but Kawhi is the difference maker. He's what takes us to another level, and he's the player that will give us a chance in every series if he plays like we know he can.

5) The Bench. It has completely disappeared, and this is probably the biggest reason for our terrible offensive production lately. However, I really think this just comes down to shooting and nothing else. Patty and Marco need to consistently hit their shots at last years rate, Boris needs to get back to his Boris 2.0 ways, and Tiago...i don't even know. I've lost a lot of confidence in this group, but of all of the problems I've stated, this is the one I have the most confidence in being solved.

6) Overall outlook. This are pretty bad right now, not gonna lie. Its looking just as reasonable for us to close this trip 0-2 than it is for us to win both or even split. This is probably the defining point in our season though, and will show what the team is made of. We all know that just as quickly as things can go wrong, they can seemingly go right all of a sudden. Whether you look at this years Cavs and all of their struggles, or last years Spurs against the elite teams for most of the season, theres always time to get out of a funk. I'm going to chalk this up to being a really dramatic funk and not signs of something greater, and hopefully our guys get it together.

[hater]

good concise thread from another "non player" fan. props. here are my thoughts:

1) I agree "we are not hitting shots" and that is the main part of the struggles. But the problem is we are not getting good shots. The spacing is way off, and guys are bumping into each other. Also the passes to the shooter are way late, or they are bad passes where the shooters have to struggle to even catch the ball or the shooter is not in the correct position. The ball is just not moving correctly for the shooter to get a comfortable shot. So in other words it's not simply that we are not 'shooting well' we are not playing in order to get decent shots.

2) The urgency is there. The concentration and confidence is not. I think guys are just fed up of each other and Pop and just want this road trip to end. Pop will have to go back to San Antonio and have a summit with the rest of the shitty assistant coaches and try to come up with something. I don't think there's anything more to accomplish this road trip besides avoiding injury IMO

3) Agree, Parker has been bad and lost his confidence. But also agree we need at least a decent Parker to even think about competing. I think we give him till the end of the road trip to show some signs and then if that doesn't work, the summit in San Antonio might have to decide some drastic measures. I still believe this team goes as far as MVParker takes em

4) Kawhi was NEVER as good as fans though he was. especially offensively. sure he was Finals MVP and a monster. But that was because all the other guys were shooting lights out. He is a Chauncey Billups in that sense, that yes he deserved the Finals MVP but in no way shape or form should that mean he is a superstar

5) Yes the bench has been shit, but it's the starters who have been hurting the team more (Parker, Green + Kawhi) It does not help that our Argentine SG is playing at Jeremy Lin levels. We need him as he's the only other ballhandler in the team. It sucks that we have a 37 year old and an injured 33 year old tired players as our only true ballhandlers. ANd they are both playing like 70 year olds.

6) Don't think this is the defining point yet. Road trip has been already a failure. The defining point will be when we get back to San ANtonio and we have that 7 game home stretch. If we cannot gain form in that home stretch we are probably not even making the playoffs. IMO use the next 2 road games to release tension even if it means losing both. Depressurize back in San Antonio, kiss the kids, fuck the wives(gfs) and give it one last shot.

believe non-player fans. believe :tu

[EVAY]

I know there are a lot of threads discussing how terribly we've played, but I just wanted to make a thread to get some thoughts off my head and to realistically look at where we are without overreacting or anything.

1) As I'm writing this, I'm listening to the first take concerning whether we are done or not. Of everything I'm hearing, the thing I actually buy into the most is that our massive struggles really come from just not being able to hit shots. I'm not saying that our shooting is the only reason we are losing, but our shooting is probably the difference between being 2-5 on this trip or being 4-3. Between Marco, Patty, Danny, Manu, and Kawhi, no one has been able to hit a shot over the past month or 2.

2) We're the defending champs, Greg Popovich is our coach, and Tim Duncan is healthy and playing is playing at an extremely high level most nights. I've got to assume that, based on previous seasons, Pop is really gonna get into these guys to have some urgency, and that once some shots start falling and we can start piling up some wins at home, the morale will go up too. It looks to me that if we can finish this road trip 2-0 (a tough task considering how things have been going, but still) and then get back home, the team will start to come back together. It just doesn't make sense that this Spurs team is playing like this if they're healthy, I've gotta think its just a combination of low confidence and poor shooting.

3) Tony Parker. What the fuck. There are many posters who have disputed the notion that we need a good tony parker to be successful, but this recent stretch should be proof of why we need him. When the shots aren't falling, we need a player who can take the ball from the three point line into the paint for lay ups and play making. I can't remember who we were playing, but he was absolutely fantastic in one of the games on this trip in both his scoring and play making ( I think it was the Clippers game). I'm going to veer on the optimistic side and say that as the shooters regain their rhythm and as Tony continues to work off the few extra pounds he put on, his decline won't be as obvious as it is. Anyone hoping for 2012 Tony is going to be massively dissappointed, but he's better than the garbage we've seen the last few games. And even if he's not that much better, our team hitting their shots has a way of hiding his regression.

4) Kawhi. This is the head scratcher to me, what's going on? He has regressed terribly as an offensive player in all facets, even coming down to effort in my book. Our season won't turn around if he doesn't get it together, and its that simple. Duncan is still our rock and is probably still our best player, which is pretty sad tbh, but Kawhi is the difference maker. He's what takes us to another level, and he's the player that will give us a chance in every series if he plays like we know he can.

5) The Bench. It has completely disappeared, and this is probably the biggest reason for our terrible offensive production lately. However, I really think this just comes down to shooting and nothing else. Patty and Marco need to consistently hit their shots at last years rate, Boris needs to get back to his Boris 2.0 ways, and Tiago...i don't even know. I've lost a lot of confidence in this group, but of all of the problems I've stated, this is the one I have the most confidence in being solved.

6) Overall outlook. This are pretty bad right now, not gonna lie. Its looking just as reasonable for us to close this trip 0-2 than it is for us to win both or even split. This is probably the defining point in our season though, and will show what the team is made of. We all know that just as quickly as things can go wrong, they can seemingly go right all of a sudden. Whether you look at this years Cavs and all of their struggles, or last years Spurs against the elite teams for most of the season, theres always time to get out of a funk. I'm going to chalk this up to being a really dramatic funk and not signs of something greater, and hopefully our guys get it together.

Well thought-out and well written. I don't know if you are being overly optimistic; I hope not, but I fear that you are.

I honestly believe, now, that the last three years of WCF, Finals, Finals have taken their toll. I don't know of a single team in the last 25 years that has been able to go through four years successfully. The Spurs have done it for three years ( no one can deny that the two years before last season's championship were not successful seasons even if we didn't win the trophy) and I honestly think that is what is showing.

The Heat couldn't make it four years in a row and they were a lot younger than we were.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Something happened during the AS break.

They were amazing against Detroit (not the best teams to test your mettle against, I know) but have looked worse than ever since break.

This time we can't blame it on Sjax.

[bklynspursfan]

I'll try and post more in these threads than the majority out there that are just filled with garbage fans who trash their own players.

Here's my take.

Yes, sans maybe Duncan/Marco, who have been pretty consistent, we look like crap. It's not 1 players fault, it's not our new coaching staffs fault, it's not the basketball gods, or any other crazy theory that's out there. (well on here)

A bunch of guys are just playing bad, and the continuity has not been there this season to get into a good rhythm. We've gone stretches where Green has struggled, but other guys are playing well, or Tony/Manu have struggled, and guys like Patty/Joseph pick it up. It's just not happening lately. A lot of guys are just in a funk, and guys that are very important to what we do. (Green/Diaw/Parker/Leonard/Manu/Splitter mainly) Now, I'm not doubting what Green said about guys not having fun. Losing/struggling isn't fun. I don't know/think there's more to it despite some of the nonsense that's on here. I mean, how often does this many people from 1 team go into a slump like this??

My take, after the RRT, we have 6 homes games (SAC/DEN/CHI/TOR/CLE/MIN), followed by games @NY, @MIL, and home again for BOS.

Of those 9 games, there are bunch that should be wins. If it takes beating up on some bad teams to find the rhythm, then so be it. Some tough games as well, but certainly winnable.

There were some good things that happened in that game in Portland. Patty/Green/Leonard (rebounding/defense)/ got it going, the 2nd unit in the 2nd and 4th really had the ball moving around, etc... Eventually, the ball will go in. They just need to continue to pass the ball, and trust the system. How many open shots have we seen missed in some of these losses? That's a good thing that we're getting the looks. That 9 game stretch coming up will be telling. I'm not one that has hit the panic button just yet. I think I need to see how they are after that stretch.

Here's to hoping we get to see some patented Spurs basketball in the next couple weeks... :toast

[bklynspursfan]

Something happened during the AS break.

They were amazing against Detroit (not the best teams to test your mettle against, I know) but have looked worse than ever since break.

This time we can't blame it on Sjax.

Yea. That Detroit game I thought was a turning point in all honesty. I'm hoping it's nothing S-Jax related, though I'd be lying if i said it didn't cross my mind. I'm hoping it's just on-court stuff

[spurtech09]

Something happened during the AS break.

They were amazing against Detroit (not the best teams to test your mettle against, I know) but have looked worse than ever since break.

This time we can't blame it on Sjax.true

[SpurSwag]

Yeah there's a chance I'm being too optimistic, but honestly this team has given us every reason to be optimistic over the years. And true the defining point of our season is definitely the 7 game home stand, but we need to close this trip out well to go back home with some confidence. This trip is overall a failure no matter how you look at it, but it we be far more demoralizing to go 2-7 on it than it would be to go 4-5.

[le13]

At least there is still some good fans here and good thoughts!

[Big Empty]

Its gonna be fine. Well turn in on soon just hope we dont drop so many games we end up fighting for the last spot in the playoffs

[cjw]

Patty/Green/Leonard (rebounding/defense)/ got it going, the 2nd unit in the 2nd and 4th really had the ball moving around, etc... Eventually, the ball will go in.

Pretty sad when two of your best three rebounders play at the 2 / 3.

[r0drig0lac]

agreed, especially 3 and 4

[TheGreatYacht]

I know there are a lot of threads discussing how terribly we've played, but I just wanted to make a thread to get some thoughts off my head and to realistically look at where we are without overreacting or anything.

1) As I'm writing this, I'm listening to the first take concerning whether we are done or not. Of everything I'm hearing, the thing I actually buy into the most is that our massive struggles really come from just not being able to hit shots. I'm not saying that our shooting is the only reason we are losing, but our shooting is probably the difference between being 2-5 on this trip or being 4-3. Between Marco, Patty, Danny, Manu, and Kawhi, no one has been able to hit a shot over the past month or 2.

2) We're the defending champs, Greg Popovich is our coach, and Tim Duncan is healthy and playing is playing at an extremely high level most nights. I've got to assume that, based on previous seasons, Pop is really gonna get into these guys to have some urgency, and that once some shots start falling and we can start piling up some wins at home, the morale will go up too. It looks to me that if we can finish this road trip 2-0 (a tough task considering how things have been going, but still) and then get back home, the team will start to come back together. It just doesn't make sense that this Spurs team is playing like this if they're healthy, I've gotta think its just a combination of low confidence and poor shooting.

3) Tony Parker. What the fuck. There are many posters who have disputed the notion that we need a good tony parker to be successful, but this recent stretch should be proof of why we need him. When the shots aren't falling, we need a player who can take the ball from the three point line into the paint for lay ups and play making. I can't remember who we were playing, but he was absolutely fantastic in one of the games on this trip in both his scoring and play making ( I think it was the Clippers game). I'm going to veer on the optimistic side and say that as the shooters regain their rhythm and as Tony continues to work off the few extra pounds he put on, his decline won't be as obvious as it is. Anyone hoping for 2012 Tony is going to be massively dissappointed, but he's better than the garbage we've seen the last few games. And even if he's not that much better, our team hitting their shots has a way of hiding his regression.

4) Kawhi. This is the head scratcher to me, what's going on? He has regressed terribly as an offensive player in all facets, even coming down to effort in my book. Our season won't turn around if he doesn't get it together, and its that simple. Duncan is still our rock and is probably still our best player, which is pretty sad tbh, but Kawhi is the difference maker. He's what takes us to another level, and he's the player that will give us a chance in every series if he plays like we know he can.

5) The Bench. It has completely disappeared, and this is probably the biggest reason for our terrible offensive production lately. However, I really think this just comes down to shooting and nothing else. Patty and Marco need to consistently hit their shots at last years rate, Boris needs to get back to his Boris 2.0 ways, and Tiago...i don't even know. I've lost a lot of confidence in this group, but of all of the problems I've stated, this is the one I have the most confidence in being solved.

6) Overall outlook. This are pretty bad right now, not gonna lie. Its looking just as reasonable for us to close this trip 0-2 than it is for us to win both or even split. This is probably the defining point in our season though, and will show what the team is made of. We all know that just as quickly as things can go wrong, they can seemingly go right all of a sudden. Whether you look at this years Cavs and all of their struggles, or last years Spurs against the elite teams for most of the season, theres always time to get out of a funk. I'm going to chalk this up to being a really dramatic funk and not signs of something greater, and hopefully our guys get it together.
Good thread :tu You can look at any part of this team, besides Duncan, and see how they contribute to these losses. Parker was right, they're just not making shots. The looks are good but they just don't fall. Whether it's Green and Mills airballs, failed Kawhi ISO's, Parker blowing layups, Baynes not securing the ball when going up, Diaw being back to 2013 Boris, Mills being affected by his shoulder surgery, Manu bricking his step back shots, Joseph having less range than Tony Allen, Bonner looking more like a fan than a player, etc. They'll get it together there's still 20+ games.

[rjv]

one possible take is that this team has hit that proverbial wall as they have played into June for three years in a row now and some of them have played international ball in between.

[chazley]

This team is just not very good when Tony isn't playing well, and that should not surprise anyone. This offense is built around him causing havoc in the paint, and he simply looks sluggish out there. If you want to know if the Spurs have a chance to turn it around, that responsibility rests squarely on Tony's shoulders. If he turns it around, so will the Spurs.

I am becoming very concerned about Kawhi's offensive potential. I think he is much better suited to be a 3rd/4th option than a 1st/2nd option, and until he improves his playmaking abilities out of iso's and PnR's, the offense will continue to stall when he is the primary ball handler on any given possession. He seems to have become a ball-stopper at this point, and that worries me. The limit of his playmaking is when he drives, he will find a big under the rim and give a quick dropoff pass. He does not have great court awareness offensively and rarely finds 3-point shooters that aren't in his direct line of sight. At the very least, he's got to be more aware of the pass for the corner 3 like we saw him do against Indiana to Marco.

Tim Duncan, I hope this team turns it around because it has been an absolute joy and honor to see you coming out and playing like a superstar every night still.

The only real dropoff we have seen from Manu this season is FG%, but overall you cannot be displeased with a 37-year old SG giving you what he does off the bench. He is not the problem

Throughout my time on Spurstalk, I have always been the eternal optimist about the Spurs, even going back to before the 2011 and 2012 seasons I believed we were contenders when no one else did. However, this year just seems different. I thought it was a mistake before the season and I still believe it now - having zero roster changes on this team outside of a draft pick and a few 10-day guys since last year was a huge error. Guys just get tired of the tedious 82-game seasons/deep playoff runs back to back and having no change on the roster for ~2 years. This same scenario has played itself out repeatedly with other teams that won the title and brought back the entire team. Everyone just gets a year older and not necessarily better. I believe it a big contributing factor to the product we have seen on the court so far.

There's still time to figure it out, but we better do it fast. We are in a battle with OKC to avoid the Warriors in the first round, and if we want a great chance at beating them, it won't be in the first round.

[rogues]

Yall will be fine partner. I find it hard to offer words of encouragement to a fanbase as vile as this one but you all act like pussies when the going get's rough. Be happy this isn't the playoffs when it matters.

[Malik Hairston]

This team is just not very good when Tony isn't playing well, and that should not surprise anyone. This offense is built around him causing havoc in the paint, and he simply looks sluggish out there. If you want to know if the Spurs have a chance to turn it around, that responsibility rests squarely on Tony's shoulders. If he turns it around, so will the Spurs.

I am becoming very concerned about Kawhi's offensive potential. I think he is much better suited to be a 3rd/4th option than a 1st/2nd option, and until he improves his playmaking abilities out of iso's and PnR's, the offense will continue to stall when he is the primary ball handler on any given possession. He seems to have become a ball-stopper at this point, and that worries me. The limit of his playmaking is when he drives, he will find a big under the rim and give a quick dropoff pass. He does not have great court awareness offensively and rarely finds 3-point shooters that aren't in his direct line of sight. At the very least, he's got to be more aware of the pass for the corner 3 like we saw him do against Indiana to Marco.

Tim Duncan, I hope this team turns it around because it has been an absolute joy and honor to see you coming out and playing like a superstar every night still.

The only real dropoff we have seen from Manu this season is FG%, but overall you cannot be displeased with a 37-year old SG giving you what he does off the bench. He is not the problem

Throughout my time on Spurstalk, I have always been the eternal optimist about the Spurs, even going back to before the 2011 and 2012 seasons I believed we were contenders when no one else did. However, this year just seems different. I thought it was a mistake before the season and I still believe it now - having zero roster changes on this team outside of a draft pick and a few 10-day guys since last year was a huge error. Guys just get tired of the tedious 82-game seasons/deep playoff runs back to back and having no change on the roster for ~2 years. This same scenario has played itself out repeatedly with other teams that won the title and brought back the entire team. Everyone just gets a year older and not necessarily better. I believe it a big contributing factor to the product we have seen on the court so far.

There's still time to figure it out, but we better do it fast. We are in a battle with OKC to avoid the Warriors in the first round, and if we want a great chance at beating them, it won't be in the first round.

The Spurs were significantly better when Parker was on the bench last year and they won the NBA championship..

He was last in all advanced on/off metrics among rotation players in both the regular season and playoffs..

[bklynspursfan]

Pretty sad when two of your best three rebounders play at the 2 / 3.

Eh, everyone has different strengths on this team. So Splitter and Baynes don't get a ton of rebounds, but they do other things well. Plus, Leonard is sort of a beast on the boards and Duncan still is a great rebounder.

[cjw]

Eh, everyone has different strengths on this team. So Splitter and Baynes don't get a ton of rebounds, but they do other things well. Plus, Leonard is sort of a beast on the boards and Duncan still is a great rebounder.

Could look at it another way and value that Leonard is one of the best few rebounders in the league at the 3, while Green is in the top 25% at the 2.

Not to pile on Parker, but he's dead last while CoJo is actually pretty good for his position:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/reboundRate/page/2

Though based on these stats, they pin Gasol, Robin Lopez and Splitter at the same level.

[apalisoc_9]

http://s5.postimg.org/wrgelhwd3/Top_10_Bottom_10_RPM_KLTP.png

[bklynspursfan]

Could look at it another way and value that Leonard is one of the best few rebounders in the league at the 3, while Green is in the top 25% at the 2.

Not to pile on Parker, but he's dead last while CoJo is actually pretty good for his position:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/reboundRate/page/2

Though based on these stats, they pin Gasol, Robin Lopez and Splitter at the same level.

Yea... Everyone has different things they're good at. TP never really has been good at it, (but he's done a lot of other good things of course) and Joseph has better size & is probably better built to board. Plus garbage time, there's more misses, when he usually plays.

[sook]

the west is wide open this yr. OKC, the biggest threat really doesn't look like one anymore