Tube of cold sore medicine costs $2,500

[InRareForm]

now, who fucking needs that much cream?

And then... it's ridiculous these pharma companies can charge that much.

http://consumerist.com/2015/03/06/why-does-a-tube-of-cold-sore-cream-cost-2500/

[CosmicCowboy]

Had an employee get a chest/stomach MRI @ the Methodist ER in Boerne last month. Saw his bill a couple of days ago and they charged $6000 for it. I have had MRI's at other locations that were more like $600 than $6000.

[TDMVPDPOY]

wtf isnt mri like 60bucks? down here mri is only around that much or someshit

[ElNono]

Ridiculous.

[boutons_deux]

US health care system is a total profiteering racket, makes the mafia, Al Capone look like Boy Scouts

[ElNono]

I think what the healthcare system needs is some disruptive tech. I think the first step of that is coming with the pervasive heart-rate monitors and other sensors.

A second stage should be a company like Google or Apple coming out with something like a Halbach Array-based MRI or an improved OCT at a relatively low cost, that can do quick diagnosis and refer you to a specialist if something wrong is detected.

Much like we went from the big, expensive, corporate-only mainframes to the desktop computer, we need that kind of revolution with a device like that on most every home. It's mostly a technological challenge, and I think if the right players get interested in it, it can be done.

[ElNono]

Dog Sniffs Out Cancer In Human Urine

University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences found out that a scent-trained dog can identify thyroid cancer (http://news.discovery.com/animals/dog-sniffs-out-thyroid-cancer-in-human-urine-150309.htm) in human urine samples 88.2 percent of the time. Frankie, a male German shepherd mix identified the presence of cancerous cells in 30 out of 34 samples (http://www.uamshealth.com/News/UAMSResearchersUseScent-TrainedDogstoDetectThyroidCancer?id=5350&showBack=true&PageIndex=0&cid=4). The shepherd was only slightly less accurate than a standard thyroid biopsy. This offers the possibility of a cheaper, less invasive approach to diagnosis of the illness said Donald Bodenner, M.D., PhD, the study's senior investigator.

[DMC]

Dog Sniffs Out Cancer In Human Urine

University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences found out that a scent-trained dog can identify thyroid cancer (http://news.discovery.com/animals/dog-sniffs-out-thyroid-cancer-in-human-urine-150309.htm) in human urine samples 88.2 percent of the time. Frankie, a male German shepherd mix identified the presence of cancerous cells in 30 out of 34 samples (http://www.uamshealth.com/News/UAMSResearchersUseScent-TrainedDogstoDetectThyroidCancer?id=5350&showBack=true&PageIndex=0&cid=4). The shepherd was only slightly less accurate than a standard thyroid biopsy. This offers the possibility of a cheaper, less invasive approach to diagnosis of the illness said Donald Bodenner, M.D., PhD, the study's senior investigator.

It would require 2nd tier testing if there was a false positive (or any positive). Then you'd pay for the dog (trying to think of a CAT scan joke... nothing) and the 2nd tier, then the biopsy to confirm.

Medications are expensive for a number of reasons, not the least of which is corporate greed. One reason is that the process used to manufacture and validate these recipes are very expensive requiring high end instrumentation, clinical trial, validation through FDA (including long waiting periods with continued funding and no permission to distribute which entails risk that you'll never distribute). When a company finds a viable product, that product has to make up for all the other trials that failed, were rejected by the FDA (probably not many since most companies won't submit without proper QA) or were beaten to the punch. Big companies like Pfizer have a massive amount of money tied up in just instrumentation. Then they employ scientists and researchers and doctors and such. Then you have to consider how much of this product actually gets sold. Go to a machine shop and ask for a CAD drawing to be created and the part to be manufactured. Ask for 1 part. You'll pay a lot for that part. Get 100 and you'll pay relatively little per unit but slightly more than the 1st part alone (material costs notwithstanding). Buy 10000 parts and you're now paying a tiny fraction of the single unit price.

But mostly greed.

[The Reckoning]

i went to the doctor in australia for a lung xray and it only cost me $40 out of pocket without insurance or anything.

[DMC]

I think what the healthcare system needs is some disruptive tech. I think the first step of that is coming with the pervasive heart-rate monitors and other sensors.

A second stage should be a company like Google or Apple coming out with something like a Halbach Array-based MRI or an improved OCT at a relatively low cost, that can do quick diagnosis and refer you to a specialist if something wrong is detected.

Much like we went from the big, expensive, corporate-only mainframes to the desktop computer, we need that kind of revolution with a device like that on most every home. It's mostly a technological challenge, and I think if the right players get interested in it, it can be done.

The next step is smaller affordable devices in clinics. If your PCP had that device and didn't have to share the cost with 3 other doctors because it was a relatively cheap device, you could get on the spot testing and instant results. Your doctor could cut out the middle man and you'd have at least a 1st tier result. The challenge is preventing false negatives. Things that need to be interpreted often can be wrongly matched by even really good software where as a specialist would rule it out (or in) right away.

[DMC]

i went to the doctor in australia for a lung xray and it only cost me $40 out of pocket without insurance or anything.

You couldn't do that here. Hell you cannot get a car wash for that sometimes. The cost of the x-ray tech alone is more than 40 dollars for that hour. Are you sure you didn't just stand in front of a microwave?

[The Reckoning]

You couldn't do that here. Hell you cannot get a car wash for that sometimes. The cost of the x-ray tech alone is more than 40 dollars for that hour. Are you sure you didn't just stand in front of a microwave?


yeah. i have hard copies of the xrays because i need them for contract work.

[SupremeGuy]

LMAO I glanced at the title and thought it said tub of cold sore medicine... :lol

I was about to reply that you have some pretty big fucking problems if you need a fucking tub of cold sore medicine.

[ElNono]

The next step is smaller affordable devices in clinics. If your PCP had that device and didn't have to share the cost with 3 other doctors because it was a relatively cheap device, you could get on the spot testing and instant results. Your doctor could cut out the middle man and you'd have at least a 1st tier result. The challenge is preventing false negatives. Things that need to be interpreted often can be wrongly matched by even really good software where as a specialist would rule it out (or in) right away.

That won't happen, IMO. Not in the current system. If you worked in the medical field, you know the device makers have to go through a lot of red tape, and on top of that are targeting a niche market. So they price accordingly. You also have doctors that use the devices as cost recovery not just on the devices themselves, but to offset other costs. That's why you need an outside disruptor, and it has to be a device targeted directly at consumers (you probably can't avoid the red tape, but targeting a mass-market gets rid of the niche pricing). It doesn't mean you can make an end-run around the doctor, you would still need his professional opinion, but you can now do that only if the system flagged something, or if you have a condition that the machine can't track (ie: something psychological, like depression). Furthermore, you would be able to bring some information with you instead of starting from scratch. Obviously, I agree that this can't be a toy, it has to have a certain degree of efficacy, but IMO, it can be done. The technology is now there. From deep neural nets for pattern matching/recognition, to research on portable MRIs. Plus this is a system that could be anonymized and networked to improve results, include in future research, signal and track epidemics, etc. I mean, there's a lot of possibilities beyond just diagnostics.

[ElNono]

You couldn't do that here. Hell you cannot get a car wash for that sometimes. The cost of the x-ray tech alone is more than 40 dollars for that hour. Are you sure you didn't just stand in front of a microwave?

Are you sure about that?
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/x-ray-machine

I'm almost certain it costs more to pay the operator than recovering the cost of the tech itself.

[DMC]

Are you sure about that?
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/x-ray-machine

I'm almost certain it costs more to pay the operator than recovering the cost of the tech itself.

x-ray tech is the operator. Tech = technician

[DMC]

That won't happen, IMO. Not in the current system. If you worked in the medical field, you know the device makers have to go through a lot of red tape, and on top of that are targeting a niche market. So they price accordingly. You also have doctors that use the devices as cost recovery not just on the devices themselves, but to offset other costs. That's why you need an outside disruptor, and it has to be a device targeted directly at consumers (you probably can't avoid the red tape, but targeting a mass-market gets rid of the niche pricing). It doesn't mean you can make an end-run around the doctor, you would still need his professional opinion, but you can now do that only if the system flagged something, or if you have a condition that the machine can't track (ie: something psychological, like depression). Furthermore, you would be able to bring some information with you instead of starting from scratch. Obviously, I agree that this can't be a toy, it has to have a certain degree of efficacy, but IMO, it can be done. The technology is now there. From deep neural nets for pattern matching/recognition, to research on portable MRIs. Plus this is a system that could be anonymized and networked to improve results, include in future research, signal and track epidemics, etc. I mean, there's a lot of possibilities beyond just diagnostics.

They have bp instruments available to the consumer. I've yet to meet a doctor who doesn't take his own reading. Most American consumers can't operate a PC properly, you certainly couldn't put anything in their homes that would require anything other than being there and being plugged in (and even then it's debatable with how people cannot operate a remote control).

I might happen one day, 50 years from now, but I cannot see a commercially viable in home option for clinical radiology. Most issues that would require one will result in pain that will bring the patient into the clinic or to an emergency room. I don't see a reason to have radiology in home for people who don't suspect they have a problem. It's like having a car diagnostic instrument, they are commercially available but everyone still pays someone to run the checks anyhow because Americans aren't big (heh) on preventive reasoning, so they won't spend 200 dollars on an OBDII reader for the ECM if they don't suspect an issue.

[cantthinkofanything]

They have bp instruments available to the consumer. I've yet to meet a doctor who doesn't take his own reading. Most American consumers can't operate a PC properly, you certainly couldn't put anything in their homes that would require anything other than being there and being plugged in (and even then it's debatable with how people cannot operate a remote control).

I might happen one day, 50 years from now, but I cannot see a commercially viable in home option for clinical radiology. Most issues that would require one will result in pain that will bring the patient into the clinic or to an emergency room. I don't see a reason to have radiology in home for people who don't suspect they have a problem. It's like having a car diagnostic instrument, they are commercially available but everyone still pays someone to run the checks anyhow.

I went to a Care Now a few years ago with some neck pain and wanted to rule out meningitis. At the front desk, I told them I doubt my insurance would cover it and would just pay in cash and asked the to estimate the cost of a quick check up. "250 max if they run these tests". So I tell them OK. She says, "why don't you give me your insurance card and I'll run it just to see." Ok...what the hell. 30 minutes later when I come out of the exam room (nothing serious), she tells me, "good news...we can file on your insurance". Ok...cool.

A month later, I get a letter saying it was denied by my insurance and the charge is $980. The itemized charges include running a pulse ox at a cost of $200.

After spending a couple of hours here and there on phone calls, I end up settling for about $400.

It's a fucking joke.

[ElNono]

x-ray tech is the operator. Tech = technician

I thought you were talking about tech = technology. I agree with operator costs, that's why anything disruptive has to be automated.

[ElNono]

They have bp instruments available to the consumer. I've yet to meet a doctor who doesn't take his own reading. Most American consumers can't operate a PC properly, you certainly couldn't put anything in their homes that would require anything other than being there and being plugged in (and even then it's debatable with how people cannot operate a remote control).

I might happen one day, 50 years from now, but I cannot see a commercially viable in home option for clinical radiology. Most issues that would require one will result in pain that will bring the patient into the clinic or to an emergency room. I don't see a reason to have radiology in home for people who don't suspect they have a problem. It's like having a car diagnostic instrument, they are commercially available but everyone still pays someone to run the checks anyhow because Americans aren't big (heh) on preventive reasoning, so they won't spend 200 dollars on an OBDII reader for the ECM if they don't suspect an issue.

But that's exactly why you have to change the paradigm, and it has to be done by companies that understand their target audience. It's how we went from needing to configure your IMAP/SMTP server with encryption keys for getting and sending email to simply tucking the specifics under the hood and needing just a username or password. And then that same username and password opened the door to your calendar, your instant messaging, your Facebook. You buy a new system, and now your apps and your data come with you. Things are a whole lot simpler than they used to be back in the day, and that has a lot to do with understanding who your audience is. For the pros, it looks dumbed down, but it just has to work. A medical device maker will never go that route, because their target audience are actual professionals. If the market is large enough, and the device effective enough, doctors will ignore the data at their own peril.

I also think the comparison with vehicle diagnostics is misguided. I think people feel fairly different when their break pads are worn vs when they're told a malignant tissue has been detected. And it's especially important in the latter case, as early detection is extremely important to good outcomes. Now, I certainly don't know when and even if it will (ever) happen. But I think that would be the kind of disruption the current system needs.

[CosmicCowboy]

Holy Shit! As y'all know I have knee issues one of which is that the incision from the last operation won't heal at the bottom...I build up fluid in the knee and then the incision leaks and squirts out knee juice. Sometimes a LOT. The doctors want to do the hyperbaric treatment to help it heal...sounds pretty simple...lay down in this closed tube, first 15 minutes they gradually replace the regular air with 100% oxygen. Tube is under pressure like you were 33 feet underwater. You breathe the 100% oxygen for 90 minutes then it takes 15 minutes to ramp down back to normal air. It super-oxygenates your blood which supercharges healing. From a technical standpoint that machine would be simple as shit to build. Labor wise there isn't much to do...guy turns the machine off and on. They want to do 10-20 treatments. You do one a day Monday through Friday.

Here is the kicker...I will know in a couple of days if insurance approves it...

How much do you think this treatment costs? I figured $400 a day would be fair...pays their labor cost, pays off the cost of the machine in a year or less, rent, auxiliary staff, etc. and still leaves them with a tidy profit...

They charge....*drumroll*

TWO FREAKING THOUSAND PER TWO HOUR SESSION!

Holy crap!

[DMC]

But that's exactly why you have to change the paradigm, and it has to be done by companies that understand their target audience. It's how we went from needing to configure your IMAP/SMTP server with encryption keys for getting and sending email to simply tucking the specifics under the hood and needing just a username or password. And then that same username and password opened the door to your calendar, your instant messaging, your Facebook. You buy a new system, and now your apps and your data come with you. Things are a whole lot simpler than they used to be back in the day, and that has a lot to do with understanding who your audience is. For the pros, it looks dumbed down, but it just has to work. A medical device maker will never go that route, because their target audience are actual professionals. If the market is large enough, and the device effective enough, doctors will ignore the data at their own peril.

It's not about what a doctor would ignore, it's about what they continue to want to check for the sake of making money. You use these devices not only to detect, but to rule out. Docs don't rule anything out, so you go in for a checkup and say "my E-Med says my cholesterol level is good" but the doc runs his on blood panel. Sure, if the E-Med says your blood cholesterol level is high, and separates the lipids, and gives readouts for all the things a liver and kidney panel would, you'd have a reason to visit the doc. People seem to have reasons to visit the doc now. How would the device reduce visits? You'd have the device cost plus every doctor bill associated with visits tied to misinterpreted data. As it stands now docs have to deal with "well i read online..." and patients think the holistic medicine website they read trumps docs orders.

It is indeed a paradigm shift, and you can want one but creating one is another story. Computers have been around since ENIAC (or however it's spelled). PCs since the mid 80's. People are just now begging to learn them and a good number of people in technical fields aren't up to speed on them. Talk to any IT professional (I'm sure you have) even at high tech companies and they will likely tell you that the help desk gets calls from inside folks that should know better, but don't.

But yeah, we could use it.


I also think the comparison with vehicle diagnostics is misguided. I think people feel fairly different when their break pads are worn vs when they're told a malignant tissue has been detected. And it's especially important in the latter case, as early detection is extremely important to good outcomes. Now, I certainly don't know when and even if it will (ever) happen. But I think that would be the kind of disruption the current system needs.
When they are told... does not equal "when they wonder". Vehicle diagnostics don't tell you when your brakes are worn. You'd need it to reset check engine lights and flash the system again or get codes. Go to any diagnostic and repair shop, it's generally pretty busy. It's not the same as personal health but it's still a valid comparison. How many people even own a BP device? How many people own anything, that's not prescribed, to them as a precautionary measure? Not many. That's because it costs money and it seems like money for nothing until you need it, like car insurance.

Young people wouldn't want it, but they'd be forced to get it as well to balance out the cost for the elderly and poor, especially in the US. Our best systems cannot even protect credit card information, I'm doubtful we could develop reliable interpretation software for in home diagnostics in the short term.

I think it has to start with in home testing using litmus tests for cholesterol and other things, strep swabs, urine tests for infection and such before people would feel responsible enough to make home health diagnostics done though software and automation feasible.

[DMC]

Holy Shit! As y'all know I have knee issues one of which is that the incision from the last operation won't heal at the bottom...I build up fluid in the knee and then the incision leaks and squirts out knee juice. Sometimes a LOT. The doctors want to do the hyperbaric treatment to help it heal...sounds pretty simple...lay down in this closed tube, first 15 minutes they gradually replace the regular air with 100% oxygen. Tube is under pressure like you were 33 feet underwater. You breathe the 100% oxygen for 90 minutes then it takes 15 minutes to ramp down back to normal air. It super-oxygenates your blood which supercharges healing. From a technical standpoint that machine would be simple as shit to build. Labor wise there isn't much to do...guy turns the machine off and on. They want to do 10-20 treatments. You do one a day Monday through Friday.

Here is the kicker...I will know in a couple of days if insurance approves it...

How much do you think this treatment costs? I figured $400 a day would be fair...pays their labor cost, pays off the cost of the machine in a year or less, rent, auxiliary staff, etc. and still leaves them with a tidy profit...

They charge....*drumroll*

TWO FREAKING THOUSAND PER TWO HOUR SESSION!

Holy crap!

You really think you can pay for labor costs, cost of the machine, rent and all the other stuff for 400 a day? How much do you think the labor costs?

[CosmicCowboy]

You really think you can pay for labor costs, cost of the machine, rent and all the other stuff for 400 a day? How much do you think the labor costs?

You suffer at reading comprehension

That's $400/$2000 for two hours. They run that bitch from 8am to 10pm. That's potentially 7 treatments a day per machine.

I would too for that kind of scratch.

lets say it only runs at 50% capacity for 20 days a month. That's $1,680,000 a year.

[ElNono]

It's not about what a doctor would ignore, it's about what they continue to want to check for the sake of making money. You use these devices not only to detect, but to rule out. Docs don't rule anything out, so you go in for a checkup and say "my E-Med says my cholesterol level is good" but the doc runs his on blood panel. Sure, if the E-Med says your blood cholesterol level is high, and separates the lipids, and gives readouts for all the things a liver and kidney panel would, you'd have a reason to visit the doc. People seem to have reasons to visit the doc now. How would the device reduce visits? You'd have the device cost plus every doctor bill associated with visits tied to misinterpreted data. As it stands now docs have to deal with "well i read online..." and patients think the holistic medicine website they read trumps docs orders.

The same way glucose readers revolutionized diabetes treatment in the late 70's. A device with high precision the patient trusts, the science backs up, a brand stands behind it, and that can flag when something is off to go seek the help of a professional.


It is indeed a paradigm shift, and you can want one but creating one is another story. Computers have been around since ENIAC (or however it's spelled). PCs since the mid 80's. People are just now begging to learn them and a good number of people in technical fields aren't up to speed on them. Talk to any IT professional (I'm sure you have) even at high tech companies and they will likely tell you that the help desk gets calls from inside folks that should know better, but don't.

But yeah, we could use it.

I've been an IT professional for 20+ years. You couldn't do what I suggest 5-10 years ago. Technologically, today you could start. But it has to be done by one of the tech behemoths... Google, Apple, not even sure Microsoft qualifies here...


When they are told... does not equal "when they wonder". Vehicle diagnostics don't tell you when your brakes are worn. You'd need it to reset check engine lights and flash the system again or get codes. Go to any diagnostic and repair shop, it's generally pretty busy. It's not the same as personal health but it's still a valid comparison. How many people even own a BP device? How many people own anything, that's not prescribed, to them as a precautionary measure? Not many. That's because it costs money and it seems like money for nothing until you need it, like car insurance.

I think it could sell, provided the right company backs it up and it's priced reasonably.

Young people wouldn't want it, but they'd be forced to get it as well to balance out the cost for the elderly and poor, especially in the US. Our best systems cannot even protect credit card information, I'm doubtful we could develop reliable interpretation software for in home diagnostics in the short term.

I think it has to start with in home testing using litmus tests for cholesterol and other things, strep swabs, urine tests for infection and such before people would feel responsible enough to make home health diagnostics done though software and automation feasible.

I don't think anybody that doesn't want it would need to get it. Frankly, looking at the medical device market right now, and considering the health sensor creep up in wear tech, I think it's inevitable.

[ElNono]

You suffer at reading comprehension

That's $400/$2000 for two hours. They run that bitch from 8am to 10pm. That's potentially 7 treatments a day per machine.

I would too for that kind of scratch.

lets say it only runs at 50% capacity for 20 days a month. That's $1,680,000 a year.

Yeah, $2k a session is crazy.

[DMC]

You suffer at reading comprehension

That's $400/$2000 for two hours. They run that bitch from 8am to 10pm. That's potentially 7 treatments a day per machine.

I would too for that kind of scratch.

lets say it only runs at 50% capacity for 20 days a month. That's $1,680,000 a year.

"How much do you think this treatment costs? I figured $400 a day would be fair...pays their labor cost, pays off the cost of the machine in a year or less, rent, auxiliary staff, etc. and still leaves them with a tidy profit..." -CC

You said 400 a day. You didn't say 400 for your 2 hour treatment.

[DMC]

double post

[DMC]

The same way glucose readers revolutionized diabetes treatment in the late 70's. A device with high precision the patient trusts, the science backs up, a brand stands behind it, and that can flag when something is off to go seek the help of a professional.

Maybe we are on different wavelengths here. Are you saying that the average household would have a diagnostics instrument? If so, that's not the same thing as someone who has a known issue having a way to check it regularly. How many people who haven't been diagnosed with the beetus have a glucose checker?

Let's say I buy a glucose checker and determine that mine is high. I cannot go start treatment. I have to get tested again, at least once or twice. The only thing the glucose checker did it let me know to visit a doctor, but then if you have routine exams you'll know that regardless.


I've been an IT professional for 20+ years. You couldn't do what I suggest 5-10 years ago. Technologically, today you could start. But it has to be done by one of the tech behemoths... Google, Apple, not even sure Microsoft qualifies here...

I think maybe a behemoth would front the cash and make the acquisitions of smaller companies that specialize in these things already. I don't think any of the tech giants could start their own medical equipment branch without that (none would try). There would have to be government funding else it's a 20 year project with investors backing out every few cycles.


I think it could sell, provided the right company backs it up and it's priced reasonably.

You're probably referring more to a screening system than a diagnostic system. A screening system would flag likely candidates for certain things. You'd have to have a diagnosis and treatment plan before a monitoring system could be established though. I think those exist already in the home, but it's basically a hospital room setup at home.


I don't think anybody that doesn't want it would need to get it. Frankly, looking at the medical device market right now, and considering the health sensor creep up in wear tech, I think it's inevitable.
I don't think so. I think there will be more ways to test yourself for things, but I don't think there will be an all encompassing device that will diagnose you with enough certainty to avoid paying even more money for 2nd tier. Maybe in the Jetson future, who knows.

Besides, big Pharma wouldn't allow it. They won't want average Joe self diagnosing and minimizing the number of prescriptions he has to encounter before getting the right one. Doctors are in bed with these guys, that's why they prescribe a ton of different shit like it's all free, and you knew what you needed when you walked in.

[ElNono]

Maybe we are on different wavelengths here. Are you saying that the average household would have a diagnostics instrument? If so, that's not the same thing as someone who has a known issue having a way to check it regularly. How many people who haven't been diagnosed with the beetus have a glucose checker?

Let's say I buy a glucose checker and determine that mine is high. I cannot go start treatment. I have to get tested again, at least once or twice. The only thing the glucose checker did it let me know to visit a doctor, but then if you have routine exams you'll know that regardless.

This would simply be a more generic tool, but there's no reason that it cannot also be used to monitor a known condition. A lot of people diagnosed with diabetes have a controlled glucose level, largely thanks to constant checking through a glucose reader. Before the reader existed, they had no option but to do labs and get a professional to read them, paying for such services.

There's obviously no silver bullet here, no tool can feasibly detect and treat every condition, but having a more affordable tool to detect and track most the common causes of death (blood cloths, cancer, etc) can go a long ways, I think.


I think maybe a behemoth would front the cash and make the acquisitions of smaller companies that specialize in these things already. I don't think any of the tech giants could start their own medical equipment branch without that (none would try). There would have to be government funding else it's a 20 year project with investors backing out every few cycles.

I would agree about acquisitions, that's pretty common. As far as government funding, etc, I'm not so sure. Google is a company known for going all in on it's own in grand scale research projects: The self-driving car, Goggle Glass, the glucose-reading contacts (Novartis joined on this after Google announced). Apple is the same way, just a bit more secretive, and a company that has worked with medical institutions. Their just announced ReseatchKit is a continuation of that.

Ultimately, I think the current prices make it a market ripe for the taking. If they can put together a solid device, they can make money on them.


You're probably referring more to a screening system than a diagnostic system. A screening system would flag likely candidates for certain things. You'd have to have a diagnosis and treatment plan before a monitoring system could be established though. I think those exist already in the home, but it's basically a hospital room setup at home.

Nah, I'm talking imaging here. Discerning tissues, finding patterns. A lot of the current work on multi-layer, back propagated neural networks that's being used to do face recognition, even at angles, voice recognition and the like. It's a field that was stuck about 5 years ago, and has had a breakthrough lately.


I don't think so. I think there will be more ways to test yourself for things, but I don't think there will be an all encompassing device that will diagnose you with enough certainty to avoid paying even more money for 2nd tier. Maybe in the Jetson future, who knows.

Besides, big Pharma wouldn't allow it. They won't want average Joe self diagnosing and minimizing the number of prescriptions he has to encounter before getting the right one. Doctors are in bed with these guys, that's why they prescribe a ton of different shit like it's all free, and you knew what you needed when you walked in.

:lol It's entirely possible I'm daydreaming. I would agree there would be pretty big interests pissed about this, but, again, that's why you need the behemoth. The guy that already went and face the music industry, the cell phone companies and told them how it's going to be. Otherwise, I agree it's a non-starter.

[DMC]

This would simply be a more generic tool, but there's no reason that it cannot also be used to monitor a known condition. A lot of people diagnosed with diabetes have a controlled glucose level, largely thanks to constant checking through a glucose reader. Before the reader existed, they had no option but to do labs and get a professional to read them, paying for such services.

After they were diagnosed, when treatment and monitoring has begun. That makes it 100% effective and only used by people diagnosed with the disease. You take a healthy 35 year old, he's not going to use anything to test himself because he's not sick. If he gets sick, he's not going to use anything to test himself because he cannot self prescribe, even a doctor can't do that. He's going to have to see a doctor, and unless malpractice lawsuits drop significantly, no doc is going to take his word for it, or take the word of the instrument in his home. Eventually said instrument might be hooked into a communication network that's protected privacy laws that only your doctor can use. If that's the case, the doctor could have you scan yourself at home and he could interpret the results, but he's still going to charge you.


There's obviously no silver bullet here, no tool can feasibly detect and treat every condition, but having a more affordable tool to detect and track most the common causes of death (blood cloths, cancer, etc) can go a long ways, I think.

Yes it could, but it wouldn't be a diagnosis. Medicine draws a distinction between screening and diagnostics. It would still require a doctor to 2nd tier test it. I think a good 1st step would be to have something you could do at home to test for polyps. As men get 50 or so they are required to get a colonoscopy. Some guys will have already developed cancerous cells and need to get what I call a semicolon, basically an operation, assuming they don't die from it first. A first check at home, stool sample or something that could detect abnormal cells would be worth the investment for many men over 35.

Another would be a test a female can do for breast cancer other than get a mammogram that they only get now and again.


I would agree about acquisitions, that's pretty common. As far as government funding, etc, I'm not so sure. Google is a company known for going all in on it's own in grand scale research projects: The self-driving car, Goggle Glass, the glucose-reading contacts (Novartis joined on this after Google announced). Apple is the same way, just a bit more secretive, and a company that has worked with medical institutions. Their just announced ReseatchKit is a continuation of that.

It would have to be something of an app at first using something you can connect to your existing electronics. After a while people would likely not faint about investing in stand alone systems.


Ultimately, I think the current prices make it a market ripe for the taking. If they can put together a solid device, they can make money on them.

Unlike consumer electronics for entertainment, the medical industry is rife with lawsuits for products, procedures and pharmaceuticals. That's why there aren't many high end devices available now. They exist, but not for the consumer market. "Have you ever had your hand caught in the El Nono Stow and Go Blood Monitor? Call the law firm of DMC.. we specialize in making these high end "el cliente" types pay for your pain and suffering" "I lost my finger to the El Nono, DMC he got me twelve thousand dollars and 29 cents.... hes mi corizon.. si"


Nah, I'm talking imaging here. Discerning tissues, finding patterns. A lot of the current work on multi-layer, back propagated neural networks that's being used to do face recognition, even at angles, voice recognition and the like. It's a field that was stuck about 5 years ago, and has had a breakthrough lately.

We'll see, but right now what's important is that I get 200 more automatic turrets on the ship I'm building in Space Engineers and I need the processing power to handle it. Neurons can wait.


:lol It's entirely possible I'm daydreaming. I would agree there would be pretty big interests pissed about this, but, again, that's why you need the behemoth. The guy that already went and face the music industry, the cell phone companies and told them how it's going to be. Otherwise, I agree it's a non-starter.
We'll see though. The patient is the cash cow. We won't be catered to that's for sure. They don't want cures, they want payments.

[ElNono]

After they were diagnosed, when treatment and monitoring has begun. That makes it 100% effective and only used by people diagnosed with the disease. You take a healthy 35 year old, he's not going to use anything to test himself because he's not sick. If he gets sick, he's not going to use anything to test himself because he cannot self prescribe, even a doctor can't do that. He's going to have to see a doctor, and unless malpractice lawsuits drop significantly, no doc is going to take his word for it, or take the word of the instrument in his home. Eventually said instrument might be hooked into a communication network that's protected privacy laws that only your doctor can use. If that's the case, the doctor could have you scan yourself at home and he could interpret the results, but he's still going to charge you.

I disagree that people won't test if it's accessible to them. It might be different for different age groups, but that's not really a concern, as there's no age-related requirements for the use.
Furthermore, doctors take readings from home bound instruments all the time. Cardiac event recorders, even glucose monitors that offer logging. Holter monitors are even used before a diagnosis. The malpractice liability for the doctor is no different then when using his own instruments. The liability for the device manufacturer is no different than the liability of any other medical device manufacturer, as they would need to go through the same FDA medical device testing.

As far as diagnosing, sure. I stated in the first post the machine won't give you a diagnosis, but will alert you to contact your doctor. But there's even alternatives to that. How about the company providing a subscription service to have flagged tests checked by a PA and actually provide a diagnosis you can take to your doctor? We're talking volume here. Just another thought.


Yes it could, but it wouldn't be a diagnosis. Medicine draws a distinction between screening and diagnostics. It would still require a doctor to 2nd tier test it. I think a good 1st step would be to have something you could do at home to test for polyps. As men get 50 or so they are required to get a colonoscopy. Some guys will have already developed cancerous cells and need to get what I call a semicolon, basically an operation, assuming they don't die from it first. A first check at home, stool sample or something that could detect abnormal cells would be worth the investment for many men over 35.

Another would be a test a female can do for breast cancer other than get a mammogram that they only get now and again.

Well, that's why I think imaging would be key. It's just the most generic way to do things that don't require hazard equipment (ie: x-ray).


It would have to be something of an app at first using something you can connect to your existing electronics. After a while people would likely not faint about investing in stand alone systems.

Both Android and iOS are paving the way with HealthKit and Google Fit. Right now they can track simple stuff like steps, whether you spent too much time sitting or not. The Watches now include heartbeat monitor with logging. Now we have ResearchKit to conduct clinical trials through your device. That's how you start building the "ecosystem".


Unlike consumer electronics for entertainment, the medical industry is rife with lawsuits for products, procedures and pharmaceuticals. That's why there aren't many high end devices available now. They exist, but not for the consumer market. "Have you ever had your hand caught in the El Nono Stow and Go Blood Monitor? Call the law firm of DMC.. we specialize in making these high end "el cliente" types pay for your pain and suffering" "I lost my finger to the El Nono, DMC he got me twelve thousand dollars and 29 cents.... hes mi corizon.. si"

That's an old problem with an old solution: Product Liability Insurance for Medical Devices and Life Sciences. And of course there's mass-market medical devices: the glucose reader we were talking about earlier is a mass market, consumer product, with multiple brands, cheap, etc. Obviously, different products will require different type of insurance coverage and incur in different liabilities.


We'll see, but right now what's important is that I get 200 more automatic turrets on the ship I'm building in Space Engineers and I need the processing power to handle it. Neurons can wait.

The way I think about it, it won't be a device you hook up to your computer. You could have an exposed interface to an app, on the phone or the computer, but it would be a secure networked device and the processing would be done off-site, much like the way voice recognition is done nowadays. It's simply much more economic and practical. Which is another major economic advantage over self-contained systems.


We'll see though. The patient is the cash cow. We won't be catered to that's for sure. They don't want cures, they want payments.

There's always money to be made. This would require a major investment and undercutting certain other cash cows. That's why it's something can can only be done by very few, which I think are positioning themselves right now.

[Th'Pusher]

"How much do you think this treatment costs? I figured $400 a day would be fair...pays their labor cost, pays off the cost of the machine in a year or less, rent, auxiliary staff, etc. and still leaves them with a tidy profit..." -CC

You said 400 a day. You didn't say 400 for your 2 hour treatment. he also said:

"They want to do 10-20 treatments. You do one a day Monday through Friday."

You jumped on a shitty argument. Just eat it and move on.

[CosmicCowboy]

"How much do you think this treatment costs? I figured $400 a day would be fair...pays their labor cost, pays off the cost of the machine in a year or less, rent, auxiliary staff, etc. and still leaves them with a tidy profit..." -CC

You said 400 a day. You didn't say 400 for your 2 hour treatment.

In the same post I said the treatment was 2 hours.

Major reading comprehension fail.

[DMC]

In the same post I said the treatment was 2 hours.

Major reading comprehension fail.

Saying "2 hours" in one sentence and saying "400 a day" in another creates unnecessary confusion. There's no problem with my reading comprehension skills. If someone told you they would work for 400 a day even if they said they worked 2 hours the previous day for 2K, you'd not assume they meant they'd work for 2 hours for 400. A day is not 2 hours. Perhaps a treatment is 2 hours. Be more specific, you aren't talking to wetbacks.

[DMC]

he also said:

"They want to do 10-20 treatments. You do one a day Monday through Friday."

You jumped on a shitty argument. Just eat it and move on.

It doesn't jive with "pays their labor costs, pays off the machine etc...". How does his 400 do all that? You'd have to assume it was 400 for every 2 hour session and then assume how many sessions a day they get and you can't know that.

Also, mind your fucking business.

[CosmicCowboy]

It doesn't jive with "pays their labor costs, pays off the machine etc...". How does his 400 do all that? You'd have to assume it was 400 for every 2 hour session and then assume how many sessions a day they get and you can't know that.

Also, mind your fucking business.

Pretty simple math, really. They don't buy me my exclusive machine. Assuming a normal 8 hour day that would be 4 two hour sessions. Their hours are actually longer but since I didn't spoon feed you that information I could see how you might be confused. At $400 a session and 4 sessions a day that machine generates $1600 a day in income. In a year it could conceivably generate $364,000.

Need any more basic 2nd grade math assistance?

[DMC]

Pretty simple math, really. They don't buy me my exclusive machine. Assuming a normal 8 hour day that would be 4 two hour sessions. Their hours are actually longer but since I didn't spoon feed you that information I could see how you might be confused. At $400 a session and 4 sessions a day that machine generates $1600 a day in income. In a year it could conceivably generate $364,000.

Need any more basic 2nd grade math assistance?

So you should invest in one, hire a couple techs and only charge 500.00. That's a tidy profit on top of what you already deemed to be profitable. I mean, since you'll have 100% utilization you won't have to worry about idle time, prep time, service contracts or certification costs. Who can service a chamber that's in use 100% of the time?

See, I just made you a butt load of money.

[CosmicCowboy]

LMAO

@ $2000 X 7 treatments a day X 5 days a week X 52 weeks =$3,640,000. a year

Lets generously assume a 50% utilization rate.

Still gives you $1,820,000 a year per machine and plenty of time fo regular time service calls and plenty for salary for a stripper quality nurse to turn the machine on and off.

I can't believe you are actually trying to defend this shit.

I'm pretty sure I could build a machine that would do what it does for $10,000. Simple 15# pressure vessel and pressure gauges, regulators, purge up/down controls and O2 supply. I work on and build stuff a lot more complicated than that.