Do people that dismiss players due to era watch basketball?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8

When people take away talents of players due to their era they played in, I can't help but shake my head. Watch this video of Wilt playing, and watch how high this guys vertical jump is. Of course he wouldn't average those stats in today's game, but I could easily see him going for at least 20/13 in today's league. Shit, DeAndre J:lolrdan averages 14 boards a game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

Wilt playing VERY well against one of the greatest centers considered of even today's generation (when Wilt was old as shit). That alone should show that Wilt can hold his own and shouldn't be inferior like some idiots claim. By the way, Kareem said Oscar Robertson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and he played with Magic.

[Robz4000]

I question whether or not you even watch sports every time I read one of your takes.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Can we now get an intelligent take on this?

I want to talk basketball.

[Clipper Nation]

Can we now get an intelligent take on this?
Sure, it just won't be any of yours.

[baseline bum]

It'd be funny seeing Oscar in today's league where his stat-padding would get him crucified like it did Rondo.

[Leetonidas]

I think a lot of them could play in other eras. I think the general shit play from back then and high pace had to due with rudimentary coaching strategies due to basketball being not far from it's birth at that point compared to now. If coaches were thinking the way they do now back then and emphasized certain skills and strategy, players would adjust accordingly to it. But since the basic plan back then was run as fast as you can and shoot the ball as soon as you find a shot and hope your big man rebounds it, numbers are highly inflated and rewinding and watching games from that era is painful.

Then again if they called travelling and carrying violations like they did back then, 90% of the PGs in the league would turn the ball over before crossing half court

[DMC]

Do you think Babe Ruth could hit off the pitchers of today? Ok the Babe Ruth of those days.

[Kool Bob Love]

Do you think Babe Ruth could hit off the pitchers of today? Ok the Babe Ruth of those days.

Is that the candy bar b?

[DMC]

isnt that like a candy bar b?
I accounted for the stupid responses but didn't consider the boiler room kid.

[Kool Bob Love]

I accounted for the stupid responses but didn't consider the boiler room kid.

Never seen Dale use that one. It's a start.

[apalisoc_9]

I question whether or not you even watch sports every time I read one of your takes.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

It'd be funny seeing Oscar in today's league where his stat-padding would get him crucified like it did Rondo.
That's very true. But I don't think there's any way, even in the 50's that Rondo averages 20 for his career :lol

[100%duncan]

I question whether or not you even watch sports every time I read one of your takes.
:lmao

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lmao

Did I really get to you that bad to the point where you need to try to derail a thread over pure hatred of me? I never thought it would be so easy to lower ones self esteem to that point. Let's try to stay on topic - my last address to the butthurt. This is a basketball discussion thread.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

I think a lot of them could play in other eras. I think the general shit play from back then and high pace had to due with rudimentary coaching strategies due to basketball being not far from it's birth at that point compared to now. If coaches were thinking the way they do now back then and emphasized certain skills and strategy, players would adjust accordingly to it. But since the basic plan back then was run as fast as you can and shoot the ball as soon as you find a shot and hope your big man rebounds it, numbers are highly inflated and rewinding and watching games from that era is painful.

Then again if they called travelling and carrying violations like they did back then, 90% of the PGs in the league would turn the ball over before crossing half court
This is a very solid point and it's funny because watching the highlights from the 60s you can easily see they played more organized and fundamental, but it's very straining to the eye.

[Clipper Nation]

Did I really get to you that bad to the point where you need to try to derail a thread over pure hatred of me? I never thought it would be so easy to lower ones self esteem to that point. Let's try to stay on topic - my last address to the butthurt. This is a basketball discussion thread.
Shut up, faggot

[apalisoc_9]

My 8 year old dog can probably dribble the basketball better than George Gervin..

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

My 8 year old dog can probably dribble the basketball better than George Gervin..
Probably better than Danny Green too.. But that doesn't really mean anything.

[apalisoc_9]

Danny Green will probably win multiple MVP's in the 70's..

Will probably be known as the GOAT.

[Clipper Nation]

If Kawhi got to play in the weak '90s, we'd be asking "Michael who?"

[Infinite_limit]

David Robinson in todays NBA would be the ultimate bench warrior

[AlexJones]

Do you think Babe Ruth could hit off the pitchers of today? Ok the Babe Ruth of those days.

Not even sure if he could hit 75mph changeups

[AlexJones]

If Kawhi got to play in the weak '90s, we'd be asking "Michael who?"
lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896)

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

I see a lot of accusations with not a whole lot of emphasis is why. I had a feeling it would go like this.


pretty impressive to be so naturally talented with not much training advances like today's game. Imagine Wilt with the training equipment of the 21st century. :wow

[Malik Hairston]

If your goal is to argue that Wilt and Russell would be great today, etc, you probably shouldn't have included a video, tbh:lol..fucking disgusting basketball, looks like a High School game..

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

If your goal is to argue that Wilt and Russell would be great today, etc, you probably shouldn't have included a video, tbh:lol..fucking disgusting basketball, looks like a High School game..
Ya, but read Leo's post and my initial post. I'm referring to the athleticism of Wilt in those vids.

[Malik Hairston]

Everything about Wilt was exaggerated, tbh..his infamous "20 000 women" claim has been proven false(to the point where there are rumors that he was actually gayer than Magic), I have to question the credibility of Wilt's legend..I don't buy the hype..

[100%duncan]

With that build and today's training, they would have been better for sure. But with that comes way better competition. We'll never know, simple answer tbh.

[Kool Bob Love]

:wow 7'1 giant doing this.


http://youtu.be/3drvcaXtAh4

[Kool Bob Love]

:wow

http://youtu.be/bibFELnW6HM

[DMC]

Shaq would have ruined him, repeatedly.

[Cry Havoc]

Shaq would have ruined him, repeatedly.

Disagree. I think Wilt was probably at least as strong as Shaq. Shaq has better footwork but he wouldn't back Wilt down easily at all.

[Beaverfuzz]

I question whether or not you even watch sports every time I read one of your takes.

Exactly. No talent ass clown is strong in the OP.

[scanry]

Everything about Wilt was exaggerated, tbh..his infamous "20 000 women" claim has been proven false(to the point where there are rumors that he was actually gayer than Magic), I have to question the credibility of Wilt's legend..I don't buy the hype..

As horny as Charlie Sheen is, i think even he hasn't hit 6000.

[midnightpulp]

A great player would be a great player in any era. It's why they're "great" players. We saw our own Tim Duncan adapt to essentially 3 different eras of basketball (Grit-and-Grind, the era following the '06 rule changes, and the current Pace-and-Space era). And he's one of the least athletic bigs in NBA history. Kareem did likewise.

[lefty]

lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896) lefty (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896)
MJ would destroy Kiwi tbh

[apalisoc_9]

MJ would destroy Kiwi tbh

bite your tongue bro

[AlexJones]

MJ would destroy Kiwi tbh

Before or after daddy stern changed dem rules?

[lefty]

Before or after daddy stern changed dem rules?

Before and after

[Perry Mason]

Watch the videos guys for Wilt's athleticism and fundamentals. Ignore the plays. Wilt was a one-of-a-kind human beast. Shaq is the only truly comparable player. Wilt would be a superstar in any era. There is too much recency bias on here.

Just wait 10 years when some 12 year old kid says "Deandre Johnson" or some other future clown is the all-time big and greater than scrub TD and scrub Shaq.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

MJ would destroy Kiwi tbh

That's a given. He's Michael Jordan.


Exactly. No talent ass clown is strong in the OP.

:lol wtf?

[daslicer]

Watch the videos guys for Wilt's athleticism and fundamentals. Ignore the plays. Wilt was a one-of-a-kind human beast. Shaq is the only truly comparable player. Wilt would be a superstar in any era. There is too much recency bias on here.

Just wait 10 years when some 12 year old kid says "Deandre Johnson" or some other future clown is the all-time big and greater than scrub TD and scrub Shaq.

It seems that they are already starting that type of campaign by saying every great 7fter draft prospect is the next Duncan or by saying this line "Blah blah is even better than what Tim Duncan was at the age of 19." They even do it with Anthony Davis by saying he's Tim Duncan granted I think Davis is great player but his game is not really like prime Duncan's game.

[Cry Havoc]

It seems that they are already starting that type of campaign by saying every great 7fter draft prospect is the next Duncan or by saying this line "Blah blah is even better than what Tim Duncan was at the age of 19." They even do it with Anthony Davis by saying he's Tim Duncan granted I think Davis is great player but his game is not really like prime Duncan's game.

Davis is a legitimate contender to be the NGB (Next Great Big). He could already be at that echelon considering his play this year. Davis is 21 and already having an MVP caliber season from a statistical perspective.

[Raven]

if blocks and steals would have been counted back then, wilt would be the unquestioned #1. With today's rules, he'd probably be just as good, since today's competition are the likes of andre drummond, anthony davis and cousins, the likes of which have never sniffed a minute of postseason. for christ sake "Of further note is the fact Wilt set an NBA record grabbing 55 rebounds against Russell in a game on November 24, 1960, and grabbed more than 40 rebounds against Bill in six other games.", and that's against the #1 defender in history according to pretty much any advanced stat. Today's competition gets owned on a regular basis by a tim duncan that has a 2inch vertical, cmon man.

[KL2]

Most guys aside of a select few had "NBA size" and athleticism to compete in today's games due to Eastern plyo training methods transforming sports worldwide. Chamberlain was one of very very few, but he wouldn't dominate in today's game at all.

[TDfan2007]

Most guys aside of a select few had "NBA size" and athleticism to compete in today's games due to Eastern plyo training methods transforming sports worldwide. Chamberlain was one of very very few, but he wouldn't dominate in today's game at all.

:lol saying he couldn't dominate at all. Most bigs in this league wouldn't score 50 points against traffic cones. Wilt did it for an entire season. He had moves, could block shots, and was a fantastic passer. He was the OG Shaq-type of player. There's no way he'd average 50 in today's game, maybe not even 30, but you could probably pencil him in for 25ppg 13 rpg and 3 apg every year. That's elite.

Look up youtube videos of TOSB Wilt going toe-to-toe with prime Kareem. The guy was special.

[313]

His height combined with his freakish athleticism, combined with today's PEDs and he'd be the most dominant big since prime shaq.

[daslicer]

Davis is a legitimate contender to be the NGB (Next Great Big). He could already be at that echelon considering his play this year. Davis is 21 and already having an MVP caliber season from a statistical perspective.

I did say Davis was a great player but again if you read my post I was implying he is not a Duncan clone like some people have made him out to be. His game is different than a prime Duncan's game. He doesn't have the post up moves or the footwork Duncan had. Davis has a superior mid range jump shot along with great athleticism compared to prime Duncan. To me Davis is more of a hybrid between David Robinson and Garnett.

[Raven]

Most guys aside of a select few had "NBA size" and athleticism to compete in today's games due to Eastern plyo training methods transforming sports worldwide. Chamberlain was one of very very few, but he wouldn't dominate in today's game at all.

i'm pretty sure modern training method have yet to show a player reaching as high as him.

[daslicer]

Wilt had some good games against Kareem towards the tail end of his career. Kareem held his own against a young Olaujuwon. Olaujuwon dominated a young Shaq. Based off of all this I think Wilt would have still been a great player in the modern era. He wouldn't have averaged 50 points a game but he would have averaged somewhere in the range of 20-30 points a game along with 10 plus rebounds. Wilt just like all great players had a huge drive to be successful which has to be factored in that due to his drive he would have still worked hard and done the things necessary to become a great player in this era.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It'd be funny seeing Oscar in today's league where his stat-padding would get him crucified like it did Rondo.

Big O had a jumpshot. Poor comparison.

[apalisoc_9]

The regular pick up player in Toronto can probably dribble way better than 70 and 80's guards..

Watching the 60-80 and i;m wondering...WTF is this shit?

hideous basketball.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Most guys aside of a select few had "NBA size" and athleticism to compete in today's games due to Eastern plyo training methods transforming sports worldwide. Chamberlain was one of very very few, but he wouldn't dominate in today's game at all.

He was bigger faster and stronger than Dwert. He was the same size and faster and stronger than Marc Gasol. Guys like Ibaka and Gobert he would take down low and shove them in the basket. Davis compares favorably to Kareem but is 3 inches shorter. He might out quick Wilt -I'm not sold though- but he wasn't keeping him out of the post either.

Frankly Wilt could finish over either shoulder with both hands. Who in the NBA today does that?

When you talk about basketball as it is played on the court these comparisons here always break down. It's good to spot the clueless fucks though.

[pgardn]

Wilt would be sent to the foul line and miss.
Russell could not shoot FTs either.

[apalisoc_9]

niggas in the 80's would creampie over a two hand dunk..

:lmao

[lefty]

niggas in the 80's would creampie over a two hand dunk..

:lmao

:lol here we go

[apalisoc_9]

Jamal from across the street can do far more athletic dunks than these guys..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o1Fjo4N7DY

[pgardn]

niggas in the 80's would creampie over a two hand dunk..

:lmao

What?

George Gervin STOOD under the basket with a ball in both hands and dunked both.
You are an idiot. Watch replays of Darnell Hillman.

Spud fggn Webb.
And shut the door on your way out...

[apalisoc_9]

a 180 dunk in the 70's was like having sex with your friends hot mother..

it was that bad...:lmao

People couldn't even dribble with their weak hands..\


:lmao

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

What?

George Gervin STOOD under the basket with a ball in both hands and dunked both.
You are an idiot. Watch replays of Darnell Hillman.
Just ignore him. I'm trying to have a basketball discussion with people who actually know a thing or two.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Wilt would be sent to the foul line and miss.
Russell could not shoot FTs either.
Yeah, but he was 53% for his career. Not out of the norm for big men.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Wilt had some good games against Kareem towards the tail end of his career. Kareem held his own against a young Olaujuwon. Olaujuwon dominated a young Shaq. Based off of all this I think Wilt would have still been a great player in the modern era. He wouldn't have averaged 50 points a game but he would have averaged somewhere in the range of 20-30 points a game along with 10 plus rebounds. Wilt just like all great players had a huge drive to be successful which has to be factored in that due to his drive he would have still worked hard and done the things necessary to become a great player in this era.
This take is pretty on point IMO. People must look at the individual, not the era. Could you imagine LeBron in the 90s or 80s? :lol imagine what Bird or Lambier would say about leaving the game with cramps :lol
Easily works both ways.

[pgardn]

Yeah, but he was 53% for his career. Not out of the norm for big men.

Sorry that sucks.
The game is called Basketball.
A pro has a hard time making 1 out of 2... ?

Inexcusable.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Sorry that sucks.
The game is called Basketball.
A pro has a hard time making 1 out of 2... ?

Inexcusable.

Shaq wasn't much better, but he's considered an all-time great. Free throws were really a small part of the game back then. Players were more fundamentally sound and hand checks weren't prevalent, but weren't called. You can cherry pick free throws, but you can't dismiss positive qualities such as his freak athleticism, post game and rebounding, or blocks. Plus he was 7'1. Big men with natural size is such a big plus in today's game. The dude could easily touch the top of the backboard. That won D12 a dunk contest :lol.

[Malik Hairston]

:lmao players that couldn't dribble a basketball without looking down
:lmao mid-range jump shots
:lmao terrible spacing
:lmao over a quarter of the league was White Americans
:lmao Bill Russell 43% from the field
:lmao tape delay
:lmao windmill dunks were mind-blowing
:lmao John Starks being the #1 option on a team that was Dad Killer's biggest threat
:lmao big men with no jump shots
:lmao only a handful of guards could shoot 3-pointers effectively
:lmao Isoball
:lmao antiquated style of play

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lmao players that couldn't dribble a basketball without looking down..
Real talk bro, I liked your first post in here. Why don't you actually try to debate your opinion. You generally seem to know about ball, so why don't you put that to use.

[baseline bum]

This take is pretty on point IMO. People must look at the individual, not the era. Could you imagine LeBron in the 90s or 80s? :lol imagine what Bird or Lambier would say about leaving the game with cramps :lol
Easily works both ways.

Remember when that faggot Duncan had cramps in OT of a Game 7 and got owned by Desagana Diop in the period?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wilt would be sent to the foul line and miss.
Russell could not shoot FTs either.

1.06 points per possession isn't bad. I get the impression that the effect of poor free throw shooting is overstated. I give credence to the notion of flow of the offense and getting in a players head but I see those as problems that can be managed and overcome.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Remember when that faggot Duncan had cramps in OT of a Game 7 and got owned by Desagana Diop in the period?

Yes, I do. But I think you're missing the point. It's easy to dismiss a player due to the era they are in. But it can work both ways. It seems like people dismiss players solely to prop up their teams star, or do so without really watching or analyzing players games.

Its easy to say a player wasn't good because he has inflated stats. But if you look at someone's game, like Oscar's unstoppable 20 foot pull-up, on top of players that have played in multiple eras praising them, it really makes a compelling argument that they can play in today's game and strive.

[Clipper Nation]

Remember when that faggot Duncan had cramps in OT of a Game 7 and got owned by Desagana Diop in the period?
Or when DK begged out of Game 5 of the 1997 Finals with cramps?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Or when DK begged out of Game 5 of the 1997 Finals with cramps?
That's not really relevant because in my post I was referring to players in the 80's. When MJ played in the 80's those two players gave him a very difficult time, too. So in reality you are sort of solidifying my point.

[baseline bum]

Yes, I do. But I think you're missing the point. It's easy to dismiss a player due to the era they are in. But it can work both ways. It seems like people dismiss players solely to prop up their teams star, or do so without really watching or analyzing players games.

Its easy to say a player wasn't good because he has inflated stats. But if you look at someone's game, like Oscar's unstoppable 20 foot pull-up, on top of players that have played in multiple eras praising them, it really makes a compelling argument that they can play in today's game and strive.

Your point seemed to be that LeBon is a pussy because Spoelstra held him out of a game he tried to check back into when he was incapable of walking.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Your point seemed to be that LeBon is a pussy because Spoelstra held him out of a game he tried to check back into when he was incapable of walking.
I just told you my point.

[Malik Hairston]

4x7V5bTsm5A

In all honesty, all bias aside, look at this fucking dude dribbling a basketball:lmao..can barely use his off-hand, has to back up his opponent against pressure since he can't use his handles to get by him, the ball is way too high..Jesus Christ, this dude was the fucking top PG of his era:lmao..he literally dribbles worse than Danny Green..

My 16-year old cousin actually asked me about Oscar Robertson once, and I literally had to password-block his computer from searching the keywords "Oscar" and "Robertson"..as a die-hard basketball fan, I'm embarrassed to discuss some of these dudes with the younger generation, I'm trying to prevent him from watching their tapes, tbh..I'll let him stick with the narrative and stats of guys like Oscar and Wilt, and the lore of Bill Russell's rings, rather than actually allowing him to watch them play, which will hurt his spirit..

[Malik Hairston]

I did the same for the keywords "John" "Starks", btw..I can't let the young fam find out that he was Dad Killer's main rival in the Eastern Conference, it would break them, tbh:lmao..

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

That video actually shows he could dribble with his off-hand fine. Why is it @Malik Hairston that Kareem called him the best PLAYER of all-time? He played with Magic in his prime.. And played with Oscar when he was old.

[apalisoc_9]

4x7V5bTsm5A

In all honesty, all bias aside, look at this fucking dude dribbling a basketball:lmao..can barely use his off-hand, has to back up his opponent against pressure since he can't use his handles to get by him, the ball is way too high..Jesus Christ, this dude was the fucking top PG of his era:lmao..he literally dribbles worse than Danny Green..

My 16-year old cousin actually asked me about Oscar Robertson once, and I literally had to password-block his computer from searching the keywords "Oscar" and "Robertson"..as a die-hard basketball fan, I'm embarrassed to discuss some of these dudes with the younger generation, I'm trying to prevent him from watching their tapes, tbh..I'll let him stick with the narrative and stats of guys like Oscar and Wilt, and the lore of Bill Russell's rings, rather than actually allowing him to watch them play, which will hurt his spirit..

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/disgusted/grand/vomit.gif

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Oscar Robertson played like a modern women's basketball player.

[apalisoc_9]

:lol Oscar Robertson played like a modern women's basketball player.

perfect comparison, IMO.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

A little comforting knowing the ones that disagree are the ones that think Kawhi is the second best player in the NBA today. I'll revisit this thread when there's a bit more intelligent discussion. Thanks Harlem for chiming in.

[Clipper Nation]

A little comforting knowing the ones that disagree are the ones that think Kawhi is the second best player in the NBA today. I'll revisit this thread when there's a bit more intelligent discussion. Thanks Harlem for chiming in.
You think LeBron = T-Mac and Cum Newton > Montana, 'nuff said :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

You think LeBron = T-Mac and Cum Newton > Montana, 'nuff said :lol
You get trolled so easy bro.

[davethedope]

The regular pick up player in Toronto can probably dribble way better than 70 and 80's guards..

Watching the 60-80 and i;m wondering...WTF is this shit?

hideous basketball.

Pick up game player in Beijing has more skill.

I agree. the history of basketball should start with LeBron James.

[Clipper Nation]

You get trolled so easy bro.
You have shitty homer takes and then try to excuse them away with the "I was just trolling" card.

[davethedope]

If the 80's lakers had Harden instead of Magic they would've won 10 straight titles.

Westbrook could've easily lead the bulls to 8 straight.

The skill of the players these days is just so fantastic.

[Raven]

4x7V5bTsm5A

In all honesty, all bias aside, look at this fucking dude dribbling a basketball:lmao..can barely use his off-hand, has to back up his opponent against pressure since he can't use his handles to get by him, the ball is way too high..Jesus Christ, this dude was the fucking top PG of his era:lmao..he literally dribbles worse than Danny Green..

My 16-year old cousin actually asked me about Oscar Robertson once, and I literally had to password-block his computer from searching the keywords "Oscar" and "Robertson"..as a die-hard basketball fan, I'm embarrassed to discuss some of these dudes with the younger generation, I'm trying to prevent him from watching their tapes, tbh..I'll let him stick with the narrative and stats of guys like Oscar and Wilt, and the lore of Bill Russell's rings, rather than actually allowing him to watch them play, which will hurt his spirit..

meh, DK couldn't make a triple, barkley was a fatass, dirk couldn't defend to save his life, nash either, choke paul can't play a postseason game decently, kirby can't shoot efficiently, shaq couldn't make ft, and so on.. really, manu ginobili is the only player in history that could do everything.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Pick up game player in Beijing has more skill.

I agree. the history of basketball should start with LeBron James.
:lol

That is interesting about Harden, tbh.. He probably would have been what Chris Mullen was in that day. Not trying to dismiss his obvious skill, but 12 FTA per game? Not a chance.

[Raven]

and don't even get me started on magic that was basically a homo rondo

[davethedope]

How many titles would Ginobili lead the 80's Celtics to?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

How many titles would Ginobili lead the 80's Celtics to?
Would Jimmy Butler average 20ppg? :lol

[Malik Hairston]

meh, DK couldn't make a triple, barkley was a fatass, dirk couldn't defend to save his life, nash either, choke paul can't play a postseason game decently, kirby can't shoot efficiently, shaq couldn't make ft, and so on.. really, manu ginobili is the only player in history that could do everything.

Dribbling a basketball at the PG position is pretty essential, G:lol..

[davethedope]

frankly take the kentucky wildcats of 2015, put them in the 90's they win 10 straight tbh just sayin

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Dribbling a basketball at the PG position is pretty essential, G:lol..
Making a three is essential for a SG... Unless you're the GOAT

[apalisoc_9]

If the 80's lakers had Harden instead of Magic they would've won 10 straight titles.

Westbrook could've easily lead the bulls to 8 straight.

The skill of the players these days is just so fantastic.

100% agree.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

frankly take the kentucky wildcats of 2015, put them in the 90's they win 10 straight tbh just sayin

:lol Reggie Miller? Never heard of her :lol

[Raven]

Dribbling a basketball at the PG position is pretty essential, G:lol..

getting the job done, that is essential. All the rest, well context wins.. I mean you can find holes in everybody's game really, Robertson led his teams better than anyone aside of Johnson, so what does it matter how was he doing that? You could say stockton was only capable of making one play, but if it worked all the time..

[baseline bum]

That video actually shows he could dribble with his off-hand fine. Why is it @Malik Hairston that Kareem called him the best PLAYER of all-time? He played with Magic in his prime.. And played with Oscar when he was old.

Oscar probably also never asked Kareem if he could buttsexed by him. I could see Lew holding a grudge against Earvin for that. Lew is an old-school nigga, he ain't gonna prop a homo.

[Raven]

i'm far from a malik hater, but how is it that he hates on big o when he likes westchimp so much ? :lol i mean they are literally the same player, except that robertson was even taller, far stronger and took ten times the beating..

[AlexJones]

i'm far from a malik hater, but how is it that he hates on big o when he likes westchimp so much ? :lol i mean they are literally the same player, except that robertson was even taller, far stronger and took ten times the beating..

You did not just compare the most athletic PG in history to Big O

[midnightpulp]

I hate Wilt's "status" as much as the next basketball fan, I mean the guy was mentally weak and couldn't even lead a stacked Kansas team to the National Championship, but he would have no problem filling up the stat sheet today. You got players with garbage fundamentals like Nerlens Noel, DeAndre Jordan, and the like routinely going off for big games. One of the reasons Duncan has been able to play at an all-star level for so long (despite being tremendously less athletic than 99% of NBA bigs) is because the C and PF positions are filled with retards who were weened on AAU ball. Wilt, straight out of the 60's, would easily be a 25-12 guy. Dwight Howard is basically a very poor man's Wilt and is regarded as the "best center in the game" by many.

Like I always say in these era vs. era threads. The game has evolved significantly and it's forced players to adapt. But players aren't intrinsically better today than they were 40 years ago (nor are they really any more athletic, despite KL2's constant appeal to "Eastern Bloc" training methods. Vertical jumps peaked in the 60's. Players aren't "bigger and stronger", as shown by the height/weight statistics over the years). They've simply evolved as the game has evolved, and the great players of the 60's (like Oscar) could learn the required skills to compete in today's game over an off-season or two. Kawhi's skillset was fuckin' atrocious when he entered the league, and now 3 seasons in, he's steadily becoming an all-around player with a complete game.

Again, a great player could and would adapt. It's why they're great players.

[Infinite_limit]

You did not just compare the most athletic PG in history to Big O
Most athletic PG in history is D.Rose

[AlexJones]

Most athletic PG in history is D.Rose
no

[Raven]

You did not just compare the most athletic PG in history to Big O

lol

[Beaverfuzz]

Most athletic PG in history is D.Rose

You misspelled Speedy Claxton.

[midnightpulp]

Here's another example that debunks the stupid idea that "could you imagine so-and-so from [insert era here] going against a modern player? Lol, the old player would get killed!

The center/pf with the greatest skill/athleticism ratio in NBA history is easily Hakeem. Nearly as athletic as David Robinson, lightning quick, complete game, from post up, to face up, to jumper. Hakeem's game is pretty much flawless and he makes "modern bigs" look like shit in comparison. Okay, let's pretend we're in '96. Hakeem is fresh off repeating, and some "old school" fan is telling us about the greatness of Kevin McHale. We all laugh, saying no way could a sluggish white boy with a 1" vertical do anything against Hakeem, or the amazing centers of today: David Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc. We say Elden Campbell would be the best PF in McHale's era, that's how much bigs have "evolved."

Oh, what's this? McHale did play against Hakeem? And it was on the NBA's biggest stage. Hakeem, even though young and still a bit a rough, would've surely dominated an "antiquated" Kevin McHale, right?

Nope. McHale outplayed Hakeem. And this was a "pure" big vs. big matchup, since Houston's center was Ralph Sampson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1986_finals.html

Now, I'm not claiming McHale could outplay prime Hakeem, but I'm using the matchup as an example of how retarded it is to make simple "no way would so-and-so be able to compete today" without considering how the game itself evolves incrementally, how the players adapt in turn, and how misguided it is to judge the ability of a player through youtube clips and era comparisons. If McHale and Hakeem never matched up, the simple idea to default to would be "Lol, no way could McHale even do anything against an 18 year old Hakeem. Players have evolved! Plyometrics!" and other such bad arguments.

[313]

4x7V5bTsm5A

In all honesty, all bias aside, look at this fucking dude dribbling a basketball:lmao..can barely use his off-hand, has to back up his opponent against pressure since he can't use his handles to get by him, the ball is way too high..Jesus Christ, this dude was the fucking top PG of his era:lmao..he literally dribbles worse than Danny Green..

My 16-year old cousin actually asked me about Oscar Robertson once, and I literally had to password-block his computer from searching the keywords "Oscar" and "Robertson"..as a die-hard basketball fan, I'm embarrassed to discuss some of these dudes with the younger generation, I'm trying to prevent him from watching their tapes, tbh..I'll let him stick with the narrative and stats of guys like Oscar and Wilt, and the lore of Bill Russell's rings, rather than actually allowing him to watch them play, which will hurt his spirit..:lmao

[lefty]

Here's another example that debunks the stupid idea that "could you imagine so-and-so from [insert era here] going against a modern player? Lol, the old player would get killed!

The center/pf with the greatest skill/athleticism ratio in NBA history is easily Hakeem. Nearly as athletic as David Robinson, lightning quick, complete game, from post up, to face up, to jumper. Hakeem's game is pretty much flawless and he makes "modern bigs" look like shit in comparison. Okay, let's pretend we're in '96. Hakeem is fresh off repeating, and some "old school" fan is telling us about the greatness of Kevin McHale. We all laugh, saying no way could a sluggish white boy with a 1" vertical do anything against Hakeem, or the amazing centers of today: David Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc. We say Elden Campbell would be the best PF in McHale's era, that's how much bigs have "evolved."

Oh, what's this? McHale did play against Hakeem? And it was on the NBA's biggest stage. Hakeem, even though young and still a bit a rough, would've surely dominated an "antiquated" Kevin McHale, right?

Nope. McHale outplayed Hakeem. And this was a "pure" big vs. big matchup, since Houston's center was Ralph Sampson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1986_finals.html

Now, I'm not claiming McHale could outplay prime Hakeem, but I'm using the matchup as an example of how retarded it is to make simple "no way would so-and-so be able to compete today" without considering how the game itself evolves incrementally, how the players adapt in turn, and how misguided it is to judge the ability of a player through youtube clips and era comparisons. If McHale and Hakeem never matched up, the simple idea to default to would be "Lol, no way could McHale even do anything against an 18 year old Hakeem. Players have evolved! Plyometrics!" and other such bad arguments.
http://media.giphy.com/media/ijoJB1vGhLdde/giphy.gif

[apalisoc_9]

Here's another example that debunks the stupid idea that "could you imagine so-and-so from [insert era here] going against a modern player? Lol, the old player would get killed!

The center/pf with the greatest skill/athleticism ratio in NBA history is easily Hakeem. Nearly as athletic as David Robinson, lightning quick, complete game, from post up, to face up, to jumper. Hakeem's game is pretty much flawless and he makes "modern bigs" look like shit in comparison. Okay, let's pretend we're in '96. Hakeem is fresh off repeating, and some "old school" fan is telling us about the greatness of Kevin McHale. We all laugh, saying no way could a sluggish white boy with a 1" vertical do anything against Hakeem, or the amazing centers of today: David Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc. We say Elden Campbell would be the best PF in McHale's era, that's how much bigs have "evolved."

Oh, what's this? McHale did play against Hakeem? And it was on the NBA's biggest stage. Hakeem, even though young and still a bit a rough, would've surely dominated an "antiquated" Kevin McHale, right?

Nope. McHale outplayed Hakeem. And this was a "pure" big vs. big matchup, since Houston's center was Ralph Sampson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1986_finals.html

Now, I'm not claiming McHale could outplay prime Hakeem, but I'm using the matchup as an example of how retarded it is to make simple "no way would so-and-so be able to compete today" without considering how the game itself evolves incrementally, how the players adapt in turn, and how misguided it is to judge the ability of a player through youtube clips and era comparisons. If McHale and Hakeem never matched up, the simple idea to default to would be "Lol, no way could McHale even do anything against an 18 year old Hakeem. Players have evolved! Plyometrics!" and other such bad arguments.

Your first mistake is assuming the bolded.Good try though.

[lefty]

Malik/Apolisoc trolling hard :lol

[da_suns_fan]

No three point shot.

Talent spread between two different leagues.

Im not impressed by any game or seasons pre-merger.

[midnightpulp]

Your first mistake is assuming the bolded.Good try though.

It's not even debatable. You either have bigs that are supremely skilled but have poor/average athleticism: Duncan, McHale, Pau Gasol, Kareem, Bill Walton. Or bigs who rely more on athleticism than skill: Wilt, David Robinson, Dwight. And bigs who dominate through size: Wilt again, Shaq, etc.

Hakeem was both supremely skilled and uber-athletic, and had length and size to go along with that. Still haven't seen a big as complete as him in the NBA. And no AAU monkey today comes close.

[KL2]

Here's another example that debunks the stupid idea that "could you imagine so-and-so from [insert era here] going against a modern player? Lol, the old player would get killed!

The center/pf with the greatest skill/athleticism ratio in NBA history is easily Hakeem. Nearly as athletic as David Robinson, lightning quick, complete game, from post up, to face up, to jumper. Hakeem's game is pretty much flawless and he makes "modern bigs" look like shit in comparison. Okay, let's pretend we're in '96. Hakeem is fresh off repeating, and some "old school" fan is telling us about the greatness of Kevin McHale. We all laugh, saying no way could a sluggish white boy with a 1" vertical do anything against Hakeem, or the amazing centers of today: David Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc. We say Elden Campbell would be the best PF in McHale's era, that's how much bigs have "evolved."

Oh, what's this? McHale did play against Hakeem? And it was on the NBA's biggest stage. Hakeem, even though young and still a bit a rough, would've surely dominated an "antiquated" Kevin McHale, right?

Nope. McHale outplayed Hakeem. And this was a "pure" big vs. big matchup, since Houston's center was Ralph Sampson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1986_finals.html

Now, I'm not claiming McHale could outplay prime Hakeem, but I'm using the matchup as an example of how retarded it is to make simple "no way would so-and-so be able to compete today" without considering how the game itself evolves incrementally, how the players adapt in turn, and how misguided it is to judge the ability of a player through youtube clips and era comparisons. If McHale and Hakeem never matched up, the simple idea to default to would be "Lol, no way could McHale even do anything against an 18 year old Hakeem. Players have evolved! Plyometrics!" and other such bad arguments.


Olajuwon didn't benefit from Eastern bloc methods until the 90's. I saw the game as well, the Celtics picked them apart due to lack of experience lmao.

[DMC]

4x7V5bTsm5A

In all honesty, all bias aside, look at this fucking dude dribbling a basketball:lmao..can barely use his off-hand, has to back up his opponent against pressure since he can't use his handles to get by him, the ball is way too high..Jesus Christ, this dude was the fucking top PG of his era:lmao..he literally dribbles worse than Danny Green..

My 16-year old cousin actually asked me about Oscar Robertson once, and I literally had to password-block his computer from searching the keywords "Oscar" and "Robertson"..as a die-hard basketball fan, I'm embarrassed to discuss some of these dudes with the younger generation, I'm trying to prevent him from watching their tapes, tbh..I'll let him stick with the narrative and stats of guys like Oscar and Wilt, and the lore of Bill Russell's rings, rather than actually allowing him to watch them play, which will hurt his spirit..

Here's a one point lesson: Look at 1:07. When the defender doesn't flop on that drive, that pretty much removes him from the ability to compete today, and since Oscar didn't flail his head and arms during the shot to force contact and a call, he's out as well.

[KL2]

Like I always say in these era vs. era threads. The game has evolved significantly and it's forced players to adapt. But players aren't intrinsically better today than they were 40 years ago (nor are they really any more athletic, despite KL2's constant appeal to "Eastern Bloc" training methods. Vertical jumps peaked in the 60's. Players aren't "bigger and stronger", as shown by the height/weight statistics over the years). They've simply evolved as the game has evolved, and the great players of the 60's (like Oscar) could learn the required skills to compete in today's game over an off-season or two. Kawhi's skillset was fuckin' atrocious when he entered the league, and now 3 seasons in, he's steadily becoming an all-around player with a complete game.

Again, a great player could and would adapt. It's why they're great players.

Not really, don't you remember? You used the weights of players that weren't updated, you used the weights of players that weren't comparable either such as comparing a 6'4 225lb SG to a 6'10 225lb Center.

You keep mistaking Vertical/strength for athleticism lmao. Judging guys that look insanely athletic around guys that weren't athletic.

Btw, I think it was you that tried to used the broad jump to prove your point lmao...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0UeHxglMJ4

It was broken by a 22 year old 200lb man not too long ago.

Brb breaking a guy's record that trained his entire life to set without effort while outweighing him by 60lbs.


Matt Bonner would be great in the 70's lmao, 240lb PF with his shooting ability, strength and athleticism, taking guys off the dribble. Wilt is going to look athletic around terrible competition, it's all relative to the player's overall ability. You put an NBA player around poor competition, they're going to all look like Jordan.

[Clipper Nation]

Here's a one point lesson: Look at 1:07. When the defender doesn't flop on that drive, that pretty much removes him from the ability to compete today, and since Oscar didn't flail his head and arms during the shot to force contact and a call, he's out as well.
You do realize Auerbach's Celtics invented flopping, right? It's hardly a new phenomenon, players have been doing it since the early years.

[KL2]

People still don't know how Eastern bloc methods relate to sports smh. I think Chamberlain may have even used them himself, he was working out with Schwarzeneggar, one of the first to fully utilize Eastern bloc training methods.

Old Training methods:
Isolated muscle movements, basic compound exercises which built mass/strength/slow twitch muscle fibers
No idea of how many sets/reps, often injuring themselves, over training
No idea of proper rest either, allowing your muscles to heal and get stronger, leading to injury (Jordan avoided weight training until the 90's bc of this)
No idea of proper nutrition, you can workout like a beast but if you're not eating right, you're not recovering properly, not fulfilling potential at all.

All these do not allow you to reach your maximum potential as an athlete.

Easter bloc training methods taught us:
-How to properly rest our muscles
-Introduced a large variety of new exercises that trained your muscles for these sports, not your basic compound movements
-Proper nutrition allowed us to maximize gains, gain weight/muscle, avoid injury
-How to approach training in an explosive manner, increasing overall muscular endurance, reaction time, balance (core strength), quickness, through this we build fast twitch fibers instead of slow twitch fibers.


Can someone name a single modern athlete that does not use eastern bloc training methods? Because I can't really think of any, at all.

[KL2]

Btw, the sheer athleticism this takes for a 6'10 260+lb man to do is just insane. The balance, the foot work, you cannot do these things if you build your muscle through basic compound movements, you need fast twitch, explosive, lean muscle, to will your body to what you need it to do such as this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHEVi_H5jYE

[DMC]

You do realize Auerbach's Celtics invented flopping, right? It's hardly a new phenomenon, players have been doing it since the early years.

Not on every play, else we wouldn't be talking about it now.

[midnightpulp]

Not really, don't you remember? You used the weights of players that weren't updated, you used the weights of players that weren't comparable either such as comparing a 6'4 225lb SG to a 6'10 225lb Center.

You keep mistaking Vertical/strength for athleticism lmao. Judging guys that look insanely athletic around guys that weren't athletic.

Btw, I think it was you that tried to used the broad jump to prove your point lmao...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0UeHxglMJ4

It was broken by a 22 year old 200lb man not too long ago.

Brb breaking a guy's record that trained his entire life to set without effort while outweighing him by 60lbs.


Matt Bonner would be great in the 70's lmao, 240lb PF with his shooting ability, strength and athleticism, taking guys off the dribble. Wilt is going to look athletic around terrible competition, it's all relative to the player's overall ability. You put an NBA player around poor competition, they're going to all look like Jordan.

No. I used the long and high jump world records to prove my point. The broad jump hasn't been a relevant athletic event in 100 years. The record that guy broke was like 111 years old :lol. And he only broke it by 7 inches. That proves my point how athletes haven't significantly evolved. You have a modern athlete with access to cutting edge training methods and nutrition and he can only improve on a jump by a guy who probably drank more than trained by 7%.

[lefty]

Today's NBA is antiquated, tbh

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's not even debatable. You either have bigs that are supremely skilled but have poor/average athleticism: Duncan, McHale, Pau Gasol, Kareem, Bill Walton. Or bigs who rely more on athleticism than skill: Wilt, David Robinson, Dwight. And bigs who dominate through size: Wilt again, Shaq, etc.

Hakeem was both supremely skilled and uber-athletic, and had length and size to go along with that. Still haven't seen a big as complete as him in the NBA. And no AAU monkey today comes close.

Wilt could shoot over either shoulder with both hands and had excellent footwork. His athletic metrics are legendary.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Dribbling a basketball at the PG position is pretty essential, G:lol..

Are you going back to your stock lies designed to aggrandize isos and crossover dribbles?

What was it they have to look while they dribble and cannot dribble with both hands?

How original. Evolution has taken hold in 40 years as well.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Here's a one point lesson: Look at 1:07. When the defender doesn't flop on that drive, that pretty much removes him from the ability to compete today, and since Oscar didn't flail his head and arms during the shot to force contact and a call, he's out as well.

:lol

[spurraider21]

People still don't know how Eastern bloc methods relate to sports smh. I think Chamberlain may have even used them himself, he was working out with Schwarzeneggar, one of the first to fully utilize Eastern bloc training methods.

Old Training methods:
Isolated muscle movements, basic compound exercises which built mass/strength/slow twitch muscle fibers
No idea of how many sets/reps, often injuring themselves, over training
No idea of proper rest either, allowing your muscles to heal and get stronger, leading to injury (Jordan avoided weight training until the 90's bc of this)
No idea of proper nutrition, you can workout like a beast but if you're not eating right, you're not recovering properly, not fulfilling potential at all.

All these do not allow you to reach your maximum potential as an athlete.

Easter bloc training methods taught us:
-How to properly rest our muscles
-Introduced a large variety of new exercises that trained your muscles for these sports, not your basic compound movements
-Proper nutrition allowed us to maximize gains, gain weight/muscle, avoid injury
-How to approach training in an explosive manner, increasing overall muscular endurance, reaction time, balance (core strength), quickness, through this we build fast twitch fibers instead of slow twitch fibers.


Can someone name a single modern athlete that does not use eastern bloc training methods? Because I can't really think of any, at all.
Iirc herschel walker didn't even lift weights and stuck to push-ups and shit and was one of the most dominant, athletic running backs in football history

[midnightpulp]

Iirc herschel walker didn't even lift weights and stuck to push-ups and shit and was one of the most dominant, athletic running backs in football history

Larry Bird even commented how lazy McHale was away from gameday and how he'd rather drink and party than work on his game and train. And yet, he still outplayed one of the most athletic big men in NBA history :lol.

I'm not totally discrediting "modern training" methods, and they have been responsible for an improvement in overall athleticism, but the improvement is very, very marginal. The biggest leap we've seen in basketball players (at least among wing and guards) in the past 30-40 years is in skill (dribbling with both hands, finishing with both hands, post play, shot mechanics, etc). And any great player of the past could adapt and learn these skills over a couple off seasons, meaning a player like Oscar would likely still be elite after he adapted.

It takes an athletic freak of nature to do something like this:

https://foraslanandvolstate.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg

But yeah, Fat Lowry or Raymond Felton would dominate Oscar (who measured 6'5" barefoot and weighed in at 220) athletically and physically because Eastern Bloc training :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Larry Bird even commented how lazy McHale was away from gameday and how he'd rather drink and party than work on his game and train. And yet, he still outplayed one of the most athletic big men in NBA history :lol.

I'm not totally discrediting "modern training" methods, and they have been responsible for an improvement in overall athleticism, but the improvement is very, very marginal. The biggest leap we've seen in basketball players (at least among wing and guards) in the past 30-40 years is in skill (dribbling with both hands, finishing with both hands, post play, shot mechanics, etc). And any great player of the past could adapt and learn these skills over a couple off seasons, meaning a player like Oscar would likely still be elite after he adapted.

It takes an athletic freak of nature to do something like this:

https://foraslanandvolstate.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg

But yeah, Fat Lowry or Raymond Felton would dominate Oscar (who measured 6'5" barefoot and weighed in at 220) athletically and physically because Eastern Bloc training :lol
I have a feeling some of the naysayers are done posting in this thread.

[KL2]

No. I used the long and high jump world records to prove my point. The broad jump hasn't been a relevant athletic event in 100 years. The record that guy broke was like 111 years old :lol. And he only broke it by 7 inches. That proves my point how athletes haven't significantly evolved. You have a modern athlete with access to cutting edge training methods and nutrition and he can only improve on a jump by a guy who probably drank more than trained by 7%.


The training techniques have been around since the 60's, the people that set these records used these techniques, so I'm not really sure what point you were trying to prove. Not only that but all these jumping sports require primarily technique.

The guy that held the record dedicated his entire life to breaking that record, suddenly some football player that's been working out for a few years shatters it. Not only that but he outweighed him by over 50lbs, breaking a record in a sport that isn't even relevant to him.

But jumping itself is nothing special. Jumping high does not mean athletic ability.

[KL2]

Larry Bird even commented how lazy McHale was away from gameday and how he'd rather drink and party than work on his game and train. And yet, he still outplayed one of the most athletic big men in NBA history :lol.

I'm not totally discrediting "modern training" methods, and they have been responsible for an improvement in overall athleticism, but the improvement is very, very marginal. The biggest leap we've seen in basketball players (at least among wing and guards) in the past 30-40 years is in skill (dribbling with both hands, finishing with both hands, post play, shot mechanics, etc). And any great player of the past could adapt and learn these skills over a couple off seasons, meaning a player like Oscar would likely still be elite after he adapted.

It takes an athletic freak of nature to do something like this:

https://foraslanandvolstate.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg

But yeah, Fat Lowry or Raymond Felton would dominate Oscar (who measured 6'5" barefoot and weighed in at 220) athletically and physically because Eastern Bloc training :lol

You do realize he's simply spreading his legs out right? Pay attention to the height of his hips lol, he's not that high off the ground. You're mistaking jumping high for athleticism, it tells me you do not know how to judge athletic players.

The skills you see are the result of terrible competition, that video you posted of Robertson was shockingly bad, terrible defense, terrible lateral movement, no explosiveness from his opponents. Eastern bloc training would address all these movements through basketball movement based workouts.

If you put some NBA scrub in the Euroleague he's going to look like a complete player, just as Robertson, Chamberlain, etc. he will also look extremely athletic, because he's not around other athletes. Splitter was an unstoppable post player in his spanish league, could knock down jumpers as well. Bowen was an offensive beast in Europe, looked like he could barely dribble the ball in the NBA

(mute this shit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QphhsFSX0j0


Lowry isn't that fat, I've seen him in real life, the dude is jacked. Whoever you think isn't athletic in the NBA, please get that idea out of your head, they are ALL athletic, they don't look athletic because it all evens out in a sea of athletes.


The overall talent pool of the old NBA also pales in comparison to the modern era. Based on that you will get more genetic freaks, more athletic players, higher quality of players. Add in Eastern bloc training methods allowing ANY guy to become athletic, you're going to get even better athletes.

Guys saw what Jordan was doing, Pippen followed, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. now everybody is using eastern bloc methods, all strength and conditioning coaches, all youth programs, etc. Before, very few people had knowledge of proper weight lifting/nutrition, now everybody does.

[midnightpulp]

The training techniques have been around since the 60's, the people that set these records used these techniques, so I'm not really sure what point you were trying to prove. Not only that but all these jumping sports require primarily technique.

The guy that held the record dedicated his entire life to breaking that record, suddenly some football player that's been working out for a few years shatters it. Not only that but he outweighed him by over 50lbs, breaking a record in a sport that isn't even relevant to him.

But jumping itself is nothing special. Jumping high does not mean athletic ability.

:lol Dedicated his entire life.

Ray Ewry, the man who set the world record all the way back in 1904, had polio as a child (meaning he wasn't athletically active as a child) and then as an adolescent, went to college and got a degree in engineering. He didn't become serious about athletics until after.

Here's a picture of Ewry:

http://www.olympic.org/Assets/MediaPlayer/Photos/1908/07/20/50942170%2010/50942170_10_HD.jpg

While he's in good shape, his physical stature doesn't really resemble that of a "modern athlete reared on Eastern Bloc training methods" and yet, a modern athlete with presumably better genetics (let's be real, African Americans are naturally better leapers than Caucasians) bested the mark by less than 10%, meaning we've only seen very marginal improvement over 110 years, despite every athlete supposedly becoming athletic superheroes because "Eastern Bloc Training." And no, Jones does not outweigh Ewry by 50lb. He's 199lb. Ewry weighed in at 175.

The point that keeps going over your head that I'm trying to make is that human athletic ability is pretty much hard coded and no training method(s) are going to exponentially improve athleticism, which means that your modern superhero athletes wouldn't render past athletes ineffective, like your retarded claim that an 80's basketball player wouldn't be able to get his shot off.

On the other hand, we've seen massive leaps on the skill side on things, everything from off hand dribbling to defensive positioning. This is how a modern player would dominate his counterpart from the past.

[midnightpulp]

You do realize he's simply spreading his legs out right? Pay attention to the height of his hips lol, he's not that high off the ground. You're mistaking jumping high for athleticism, it tells me you do not know how to judge athletic players.

No, you don't. You do realize that takes an extraordinary amount of flexibility (something very important for an athlete to have) to do the splits in midair? And "he's not that high off the ground" (I'd estimate about 2 and half feet) because he's coming down with ball after a rebound.


The skills you see are the result of terrible competition, that video you posted of Robertson was shockingly bad, terrible defense, terrible lateral movement, no explosiveness from his opponents. Eastern bloc training would address all these movements through basketball movement based workouts.

Yes. You're finally getting it. Skills.

And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.


If you put some NBA scrub in the Euroleague he's going to look like a complete player, just as Robertson, Chamberlain, etc. he will also look extremely athletic, because he's not around other athletes. Splitter was an unstoppable post player in his spanish league, could knock down jumpers as well. Bowen was an offensive beast in Europe, looked like he could barely dribble the ball in the NBA

And all those Euros are using "Eastern Bloc Training" methods, as well. So what's the excuse now?




The overall talent pool of the old NBA also pales in comparison to the modern era. Based on that you will get more genetic freaks, more athletic players, higher quality of players. Add in Eastern bloc training methods allowing ANY guy to become athletic, you're going to get even better athletes.

Of course. But that doesn't automatically equate to top players of the past not being able to compete at a high level today. Wilt, Russell, Oscar were all "freaks," even by today's standards. And no, a training method, no matter which, will not turn "anyone into an athlete." Athleticism is determined by genetics. Sure, training will maximize a person's innate athletic ability, and yes, modern training methods are superior to past methods, but not so superior that modern athletes are supermen in comparison. This is, again, the point you fail to understand.

[apalisoc_9]

using robertson as an argument?

The dude can't even dribble with his left hand...Some guy named Justin in our loxal High school can dribble the ball better than that nigga. :lmao

[midnightpulp]

using robertson as an argument?

The dude can't even dribble with his left hand...Some guy named Justin in our loxal High school can dribble the ball better than that nigga. :lmao

You obviously didn't read past the first sentence of my argument:


And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.

Skills can be learned and massively improved on over a relatively limited time frame. Athletic ability is something you're pretty much born with. Yeah, you can improve it marginally through training and PEDs, but humans have essentially plateaued on this end.

Skills (and strategy), though, will continue to be refined as knowledge and technology (see SportVU tracking) advances.

[apalisoc_9]

You obviously didn't read past the first sentence of my argument:



Skills can be learned and massively improved on over a relatively limited time frame. Athletic ability is something you're pretty much born with. Yeah, you can improve it marginally through training and PEDs, but humans have essentially plateaued on this end.

Skills (and strategy), though, will continue to be refined as knowledge and technology (see SportVU tracking) advances.

So lets say I let you win the argument that Athletes today are only marginally better in terms of athletic ability, there is no denying in terms of skills..players today are a universe better.

If you take that two things in consideration...robertson wouldn't even make it to college ball in today's game.

[midnightpulp]

So lets say I let you win the argument that Athletes today are only marginally better in terms of athletic ability, there is no denying in terms of skills..players today are a universe better.

If you take that two things in consideration...robertson wouldn't even make it to college ball in today's game.

:lol Yes he would. College players have terrible skillsets, the development of which has actually regressed over the past 3 decades because of AAU ball.

Kawhi's offensive skillset was fuckin' atrocious when he was drafted. Yet he's developed a versatile offensive game in 3 seasons. Oscar would progress likewise. It's not hard to learn how to dribble with your off hand, be more efficient in your movements (think Rocker Step in lieu of overdribbling), proper defensive positioning, shooting mechanics, etc.

Oh, and you don't have "to let me win" any argument. All the data has clearly shown there has only been a very, very marginal improvement (fractions of a percent each year) to no improvement at all in human athleticism over the past century.

But technique and strategy has improved in all areas, across all sports. Usain Bolt is indeed a once-in-a-generation athlete, but a big reason he's so fast is because his sprint mechanics are near-perfect, which have been definitely aided by modern technology like computer analysis and such.

[apalisoc_9]

:lol Yes he would. College players have terrible skillsets, the development of which has actually regressed over the past 3 decades because of AAU ball.

Kawhi's offensive skillset was fuckin' atrocious when he was drafted. Yet he's developed a versatile offensive game in 3 seasons. Oscar would progress likewise. It's not hard to learn how to dribble with your off hand, be more efficient in your movements (think Rocker Step in lieu of overdribbling), proper defensive positioning, shooting mechanics, etc.

Oh, and you don't have "to let me win" any argument. All the data has clearly shown there has only been a very, very marginal improvement (fractions of a percent each year) to no improvement at all in human athleticism over the past century.

But technique and strategy has improved in all areas, across all sports. Usain Bolt is indeed a once-in-a-generation athlete, but a big reason he's so fast is because his sprint mechanics are near-perfect, which have been definitely aided by modern technology like computer analysis and such.

i showed you data that my friend who now works in a bank would have been a Pro 100 meter runner 50 years ago...

but you continue to deny.

[midnightpulp]

i showed you data that my friend who now works in a bank would have been a Pro 100 meter runner 50 years ago...

but you continue to deny.

Your friend's shitty time wouldn't even hack it 100 years ago.

Also citing your friend's time does nothing for your counterargument. Like I said, sprinting technique has improved massively since the first Olympics, and your friend would have access to better coaching even at the youth level than Olympic athletes of a century ago.

You also showed me no data, since your argument is a pure anecdote.

[apalisoc_9]

Your friend's shitty time wouldn't even hack it 100 years ago.

Also citing your friend's time does nothing for your counterargument. Like I said, sprinting technique has improved massively since the first Olympics, and your friend would have access to better coaching even at the youth level than Olympic athletes of a century ago.

You also showed me no data, since you're argument is a pure anecdote.

in 1958 the record for 100 meter was 10.1..if you think the difference between 10.1 and 9.5 is marginal in 100, then I just don't know what to say to you.

in 2014 trentavis friday run at 9.98..He's just in High school btw.

a 17 year old running better than a Pro and world record holder in the the 60...:lmao

60...:lmao

[midnightpulp]

in 1958 the record for 100 meter was 10.1..if you think the difference between 10.1 and 9.5 is marginal in 100, then I just don't know what to say to you.

in 2014 trentavis friday run at 9.98..He's just in High school btw.

a 17 year old running better than a Pro and world record holder in the the 60...:lmao

60...:lmao

Friday's best time is 10 flat.

The best time a high schooler ran in 1980?

10.00

No improvement in 35 years.

http://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-2882/

And like I said, technique continues to get better, so of course times would improve over 60 years.

And yes, 10.1 to 9.5 is marginal from a percent point-of-view, especially when you consider that improvement took over 50 years to materialize (0.1 percent each year). A massive improvement would be from 10.1 to 5.00, which would never happen.

And the long jump, high jump, hurdles, shot put, and javelin world records have stagnated.

[KL2]

Dedicated his entire life.

Ray Ewry, the man who set the world record all the way back in 1904, had polio as a child (meaning he wasn't athletically active as a child) and then as an adolescent, went to college and got a degree in engineering. He didn't become serious about athletics until after.

Here's a picture of Ewry:



While he's in good shape, his physical stature doesn't really resemble that of a "modern athlete reared on Eastern Bloc training methods" and yet, a modern athlete with presumably better genetics (let's be real, African Americans are naturally better leapers than Caucasians) bested the mark by less than 10%, meaning we've only seen very marginal improvement over 110 years, despite every athlete supposedly becoming athletic superheroes because "Eastern Bloc Training." And no, Jones does not outweigh Ewry by 50lb. He's 199lb. Ewry weighed in at 175.

The point that keeps going over your head that I'm trying to make is that human athletic ability is pretty much hard coded and no training method(s) are going to exponentially improve athleticism, which means that your modern superhero athletes wouldn't render past athletes ineffective, like your retarded claim that an 80's basketball player wouldn't be able to get his shot off.

On the other hand, we've seen massive leaps on the skill side on things, everything from off hand dribbling to defensive positioning. This is how a modern player would dominate his counterpart from the past.


It was an Olympic record set by a very skinny guy that used proper jumping technique lmao. It was broken by a young 200lb man that didn't use proper technique, that built his muscle through different methods and has much different reflexes.

[apalisoc_9]

It was an Olympic record set by a very skinny guy that used proper jumping technique lmao. It was broken by a young 200lb man that didn't use proper technique, that built his muscle through different methods and has much different reflexes.

[KL2]

No, you don't. You do realize that takes an extraordinary amount of flexibility (something very important for an athlete to have) to do the splits in midair? And "he's not that high off the ground" (I'd estimate about 2 and half feet) because he's coming down with ball after a rebound.

Any pro NBA athlete can do that lmfao, any athlete should be able to do that.


Yes. You're finally getting it. Skills.

And I didn't post that video, since I know Oscar's skillset is raw by today's standards, but that doesn't mean he couldn't learn them during an off-season or two.


The overall quality of the NBA has increased 10 fold, the depth pool has increased to BILLIONS, it's not even comparable. The amount of youth development programs that use modern training methods, collegiate basketball programs, overseas basketball clubs, it's ridiculous. There are millions of children right now playing youth basketball, developing their games from a young age. There are all sorts of guys out there that master the fundamentals, but their skills are overruled by sheer athleticism, speed, and size.

Not only that but thanks to Eastern bloc training methods guys like Duncan have been able to increase the span of their career and the level at which they play at while staying healthy. That right there has increased the overall strength of the NBA alone, keeping players healthy, not wearing out their Central Nervous system with improper workouts.




And all those Euros are using "Eastern Bloc Training" methods, as well. So what's the excuse now?

They're all over the place lmao, the USSR dominated us in the Olympics with them. All the Euro league players you see in the NBA are the result of these methods.

However, their depth pool and training techniques are behind the USA's, because in the US, sports is god. We have the biggest youth sports program by far, we build million dollar stadiums just to watch high school sports lmao. We pump a large amount of money into sports science. The Euros created it, we helped perfect it by applying it to our sports.






Of course. But that doesn't automatically equate to top players of the past not being able to compete at a high level today. Wilt, Russell, Oscar were all "freaks," even by today's standards. And no, a training method, no matter which, will not turn "anyone into an athlete." Athleticism is determined by genetics. Sure, training will maximize a person's innate athletic ability, and yes, modern training methods are superior to past methods, but not so superior that modern athletes are supermen in comparison. This is, again, the point you fail to understand.



You still didn't read about Eastern bloc training methods, part of it is improving your CNS, Central Nervous System, which affects your reflexes, overall muscle fatigue, coordination, explosive ability etc.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/central-nervous-system-how-cns-training-can-improve-sports-performance-40836#

It also mentions a study between the jumping techniques used between football players and track and field jumpers, and and array of different athletes and the relation of the CNS.


Players are far more explosive, they increase their weight, while improving coordination, quickness, explosiveness, reflexes both conscious and unconscious, overall endurance, they do not sacrifice anything and that is why they are bigger and they stay healthier as well.

That's why players of the past were so small, the bigger they were, the more quickness/agility they sacrificed, and if you did lift you had to avoid injury by not exhausting your CNS. Now you can have a 270lb Lebron James moving like a guard, a 6'10 Blake Griffin dribbling like a guard, a 240lb SF Kawhi Leonard out on the perimeter guarding guards. 6'4 225lb guards exploding to the rim making insane plays, 7'0 250lb guys like Splitter guard the pick and roll etc.

Most guys that were 6'5 200lbs or 6'10 250lbs got into the NBA by default :lol, now days there are hundreds of them competing for a spot in the NBA, all benefiting from modern training techniques.

Jordan used these techniques to increase his overall endurance, size, health, reflexes etc.

[KL2]

Anyone saying athletes haven't gotten much more explosive and athletic is also saying the NFL hasn't gotten more athletic as well lmfao.

The NFL first applied these techniques in the 70's with the Raiders, everyone saw how bad ass they were working, started hiring strength and conditioning coaches. Now after 40+ years you're seeing animals out there, now every pro sports team employs these coaches.

6'5 240lb WR's like Johnson lmao, 6'3 200lb CB's, etc. it's ridiculous.

The NBA didn't benefit until the 90's, some guys may have used them before, but the use wasn't wide spread, nor were the techniques for bball fully developed like they are now. Jordan was one of the first, he went on to dominate and said himself how they transformed him.

Kids these days are learning these techniques and exercises, the NBA is insanely athletic right now.