Do you want Kawhi to be "Pippen" (a 2nd option) on offense as we move in the post...

[midnightpulp]

Big 3 era?

Make no mistake, the Spurs will be (if they're not already) "Kawhi's team." But just because it's your team, doesn't necessarily mean you have to automatically be the 1st offensive option/leading scorer. Now, I'm not asking this question because I don't believe in Kawhi's offensive progression or ability (his huge hands and average athleticism will always be a concern for me, however), but he is so dominant defensively, I don't really want to see him drop off on that end as his offensive usage increases. Every great two-way wing player has suffered a marginal to sometimes huge drop off defensively when they're tasked with being "the man" on offense (Jordan [was often hidden on the opposing team's worst wing], T-Mac, Kobe, Lebron, etc) .

Luckily, he actually is in the right system that allows him to maximize his all-around ability rather than just his offensive ability. Since the Spurs play team basketball, Kawhi likely won't be required to shoulder too much of an offensive load in isolation situations that will affect his defense. So in a sense, he can still be the first offensive option not just an overused one.

Kawhi's defensive ability is a rarer commodity than wing players who can score 20-25 a night, which is why I want to preserve the former even if means Kawhi never achieves a pretty looking 25ppg.

[apalisoc_9]

Nope.

[midnightpulp]

Nope.

Relying on a single player to be "the man" is out of 90's basketball, though.

Antiquated.

[100%duncan]

Tbh that means we'll have another top 10 player. So, fine by me.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Had a dream that the Duncan and Ginobili retired and we had Kawhi, TP, and the Gasol brothers. Pretty dope dream.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Relying on a single player to be "the man" is out of 90's basketball, though.

Antiquated.

:lol

[midnightpulp]

Tbh that means we'll have another top 10 player. So, fine by me.

Or just a collection of complementary players, kinda like now. So Kawhi can still be the man from an individual numbers standpoint, but still second fiddle to "the system."

[RD2191]

I do. I'm one of the biggest Kawhi fans on this site but I wouldn't mind him being the 2nd option if we get a solid scoring PG.

[Kool Bob Love]

As long as the Spurs ring.

[100%duncan]

Or just a collection of complementary players, kinda like now. So Kawhi can still be the man from an individual numbers standpoint, but still second fiddle to "the system."

But being 2nd in offense means there's one guy scoring 23-25 ppg right? That'd be really good since we wont have Tim and Manu anymore.

[apalisoc_9]

Relying on a single player to be "the man" is out of 90's basketball, though.

Antiquated.

Never said anything about relying on a single player to be the man..

not sure why you think me saying no means relying on a single player..

That's way too much of a media and mainstream fan mentality.

Antiquated.

[houston spurs fan]

Never said anything about relying on a single player to be the man..

not sure why you think me saying no means relying on a single player..

That's way too much of a media and mainstream fan mentality.

Antiquated.
Lol, this guy Malik doesn't even know what antiquated means.

[FkLA]

Just keep it how it is now. He's clearly the best player on the team right now but he doesn't have to shoulder as much as other stars bc the system shoulders some of the offensive load. Current Timmy and Manu aren't irreplaceable. Current Enrique is a bum. I think Pop can keep this going if the right pieces are put around Kawhi tbh.

[SpursFan86]

I'd rather have Kawhi average 18-20 ppg while maintaining efficiency and DPOTY-caliber defense as opposed to him scoring 25 ppg and sacrificing those things. Obviously it'd be great if he could do those things even while efficiently carrying the offense night in and night out, but that's an unrealistic expectation IMO. Very, very, very few players have been able to do that throughout history.

[RD2191]

It seems like every team except the Spurs have a surplus of young PGs who can get buckets. I want to see the spurs sign an offensively talented pg who is also a willing passer. Defense should be set with Kawhi and Green and Splitter in the paint. Parker can become a 6th man or gtfo.

[100%duncan]

It seems like every team except the Spurs have a surplus of young PGs who can get buckets. I want to see the spurs sign an offensively talented pg who is also a willing passer. Defense should be set with Kawhi and Green and Splitter in the paint. Parker can become a 6th man or gtfo.
Ghill blair kawhi. Future big 3...

[spurraider21]

Antiquated.
the spurstalk a-bomb

[Clipper Nation]

No, mainly because thanks to Enrique's selfishness, Kawhi will be too busy being the LeBron of the Clippers. :downspin:

[DAF86]

Big 3 era?

Make no mistake, the Spurs will be (if they're not already) "Kawhi's team." But just because it's your team, doesn't necessarily mean you have to automatically be the 1st offensive option/leading scorer. Now, I'm not asking this question because I don't believe in Kawhi's offensive progression or ability (his huge hands and average athleticism will always be a concern for me, however), but he is so dominant defensively, I don't really want to see him drop off on that end as his offensive usage increases. Every great two-way wing player has suffered a marginal to sometimes huge drop off defensively when they're tasked with being "the man" on offense (Jordan [was often hidden on the opposing team's worst wing], T-Mac, Kobe, Lebron, etc) .

Luckily, he actually is in the right system that allows him to maximize his all-around ability rather than just his offensive ability. Since the Spurs play team basketball, Kawhi likely won't be required to shoulder too much of an offensive load in isolation situations that will affect his defense. So in a sense, he can still be the first offensive option not just an overused one.

Kawhi's defensive ability is a rarer commodity than wing players who can score 20-25 a night, which is why I want to preserve the former even if means Kawhi never achieves a pretty looking 25ppg.

Why the fuck would you be worried about that? MJ never seemed to worry about his huge hands, tbh. Having huge hands is an advantage.

[HI-FI]

Why the fuck would you be worry about that? MJ never seemed to worry about his huge hands, tbh. Having huge hands is an advantage.
yeah I don't get that either. His handles are only going to get better, plus his passing has vastly improved.

iirc the rapist always wished he had bigger hands, of course his obsession with MJ is disturbing.

[spurraider21]

No, mainly because thanks to Enrique's selfishness, Kawhi will be too busy being the LeBron of the Clippers. :downspin:
nah, they gotta open the checkbook once deandre gets handed his bullshit DPOY :lol

[midnightpulp]

Why the fuck would you be worried about that? MJ never seemed to worry about his huge hands, tbh. Having huge hands is an advantage.

Huge hands are always a liability when it comes to shooting. And Jordan's hands weren't anywhere near as large as Leonard's.

Not saying Kawhi can't overcome that obstacle, but it's easier said than done.

[midnightpulp]

Never said anything about relying on a single player to be the man..

not sure why you think me saying no means relying on a single player..

That's way too much of a media and mainstream fan mentality.

Antiquated.

Because you implied that you wouldn't accept Kawhi having a 2nd fiddle role in the offense. Obviously he's the best single offensive option at the moment, but if we could develop or sign (which will never happen) a player who is just as offensively talented or more to shoulder a greater offensive load than Kawhi so that Kawhi could focus more energy on defense (where he just might be the most dominant player in the league), I'd take that over Kawhi trying to be Lebron James or Kevin Durant on offense, scoring 30 each night but slacking on defense, which would inevitably happen.

But again, Kawhi is actually in the right system (a system that you claimed "held him back") for him to flourish in an all-around capacity.

[spurraider21]

Huge hands are always a liability when it comes to shooting. And Jordan's hands weren't anywhere near as large as Leonard's.

Not saying Kawhi can't overcome that obstacle, but it's easier said than done.
according to this, MJ had bigger hands than Kawhi

http://www.foxsportsradio.com/articles/the-locker-room-486404/the-largest-hands-in-the-nba-12467252/

[DAF86]

Huge hands are always a liability when it comes to shooting. And Jordan's hands weren't anywhere near as large as Leonard's.

Not saying Kawhi can't overcome that obstacle, but it's easier said than done.

Imho, those huge hands help him with his elite midrange shooting and Kawhi's 3pt shooting will always be streaky but as he develops more and more into a 1st option instead of a "spot up guy" 3pt shooting will become less of a necessity so I don't really worry about his big hands getting in the way of his shooting.

[SpursFan86]

holy shit @ Antetokounmpo's hands...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlLxMkzIIAALaZv.jpg

[apalisoc_9]

Because you implied that you wouldn't accept Kawhi having a 2nd fiddle role in the offense. Obviously he's the best single offensive option at the moment, but if we could develop or sign (which will never happen) a player who is just as offensively talented or more to shoulder a greater offensive load than Kawhi so that Kawhi could focus more energy on defense (where he just might be the most dominant player in the league), I'd take that over Kawhi trying to be Lebron James or Kevin Durant on offense, scoring 30 each night but slacking on defense, which would inevitably happen.

But again, Kawhi is actually in the right system (a system that you claimed "held him back") for him to flourish in an all-around capacity.

NO, you assumed. you made all sorts of assumptions over a two letter word.

[midnightpulp]

according to this, MJ had bigger hands than Kawhi

http://www.foxsportsradio.com/articles/the-locker-room-486404/the-largest-hands-in-the-nba-12467252/

Interesting. Jordan's hands, while larger than the average wing and which game him advantage, just never seemed freakishly large.

http://slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/mj.jpg

http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/30/44/52/6441661/3/960x540.jpg

Kawhi's just seem longer. Could be because Jordan has fat fingers.

[midnightpulp]

NO, you assumed. you made all sorts of assumptions over a two letter word.

Next time elaborate.

[midnightpulp]

Imho, those huge hands help him with his elite midrange shooting and Kawhi's 3pt shooting will always be streaky but as he develops more and more into a 1st option instead of a "spot up guy" 3pt shooting will become less of a necessity so I don't really worry about his big hands getting in the way of his shooting.

Huge hands never help with shooting, in any circumstance.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TpNaatZUplI/Tx0LGYvuJTI/AAAAAAAAAGM/qXJyehmaW9w/s1600/hand+size+sorted+by+length.PNG

Jordan didn't develop a midrange shot well into his 5th or 6th year, and I'd be willing to bet his midrange shot percentage isn't as high as we all think it is. Jordan did a lot of damage off penetration in his early years and in the low post in his later years.

[spurraider21]

Interesting. Jordan's hands, while larger than the average wing and which game him advantage, just never seemed freakishly large.
that or you just chose a bad picture

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/308/483/original_display_image.png?1279723565

i think a lot of the hand size vs shooting numbers are just off because big handed dudes tend to be centers who never really worked on their jumpers in high school or AAU

[midnightpulp]

that or you just chose a bad picture

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/308/483/original_display_image.png?1279723565

i think a lot of the hand size vs shooting numbers are just off because big handed dudes tend to be centers who never really worked on their jumpers in high school or AAU

It's usually because you inadvertently use your palm during the release of the shot, pushing the ball rather than stroking it (see how when Kawhi misses, it's often short and flat). Notice how Kawhi has to basically cradle the ball with his fingers during his shot setup to ensure a smooth, fingertip release. In the heat of the game, those extra movements (moving the ball from palm to fingers) give the defender a few microseconds to recover. A player with huge hands, knowing this, rushes the shot and doesn't stroke it optimally.

On the other hand (no pun), it's why players like Curry can have ultra quick releases while still retaining a solid, fingertip stroke.

[Blackjack]

Let's be clear: Scottie Pippen would be a max, numero uno player on most teams - then or now.

His burden was playing next to arguably the GOAT, and definitely the most celebrated of all-time.

I'd gladly accept Kawhi as the next Pippen. Dude was a beast when MJ retired, and very well could have had another ring if he had the Spurs supporting cast of 2015.

[Arcadian]

If the Spurs want to remain title contenders, they need to find a better scorer than Kawhi. If they want to be a mediocre team with an exciting player, he can score 30ppg.

This isn't a slight against Kawhi, either. It's a simple fact about how to construct a winning team.

[apalisoc_9]

If the Spurs want to remain title contenders, they need to find a better scorer than Kawhi. If they want to be a mediocre team with an exciting player, he can score 30ppg.

This isn't a slight against Kawhi, either. It's a simple fact about how to construct a winning team.

you don't know anything about basketball..

Keep your shit to yourself.

The spurs will win this year with Kawhi as the number 1 offensive option and you can go ahead be a media fan somewhere else.

[Malik Hairston]

you don't know anything about basketball..

Keep your shit to yourself.

The spurs will win this year with Kawhi as the number 1 offensive option and you can go ahead be a media fan somewhere else.

:lmao..

[midnightpulp]

you don't know anything about basketball..

Keep your shit to yourself.

The spurs will win this year with Kawhi as the number 1 offensive option and you can go ahead be a media fan somewhere else.

I think you're still missing the point of Spurs fans who would prefer Kawhi shoulder a little less offensive load, either through being a 2nd option or being the 1st option in a system that doesn't overuse any one player offensively (like now), so that he can have the necessary energy to dominate defensively.

No wing player in NBA history has ever been top tier elite on both ends for any significant length of time (and no, Jordan wasn't. See his Defensive +/- after 1992). Something has to give. I prefer what gives in this equation is Kawhi's offensive usage.

His defensive ability is a once-in-a-generation type thing. Best wing defender since Pippen right now. Players who can score 20-25 points per game aren't.

[Malik Hairston]

The Spurs are always ahead of the rest of the league, and Kawhi himself understands how to play in an elite system, he has done it since he entered the league..it has been a work in progress, but the team understands how to play around him, and he understands how to play the "Spurs way"..

As long as Pop is coaching, this team won't rely on a conventional, old-style system of relying heavily on 1 player to carry the offense like the Rockets, tbh..

Even during this current explosion from Kawhi, it hasn't stopped the Spurs from having Manu facilitate, Diaw exploiting mismatches, etc..

The best thing a young star can learn at an early age is how to play in a system, especially as the NBA continues to divert from the ISO-ball that plagued the league in the 90s and 2000s..

[Arcadian]

you don't know anything about basketball..

Keep your shit to yourself.

The spurs will win this year with Kawhi as the number 1 offensive option and you can go ahead be a media fan somewhere else.

What the hell? :lol This guy...

I'm talking about future seasons in which the Spurs are rebuilding around Kawhi and Green. My point is simply that, moving forward, they will need to find another scorer to compliment those two. Kawhi will be the all-around threat that he is, not merely a scorer.

[apalisoc_9]

I think you're still missing the point of Spurs fans who would prefer Kawhi shoulder a little less offensive load, either through being a 2nd option or being the 1st option in a system that doesn't overuse any one player offensively (like now), so that he can have the necessary energy to dominate defensively.

No wing player in NBA history has ever been top tier elite on both ends for any significant length of time (and no, Jordan wasn't. See his Defensive +/- after 1992). Something has to give. I prefer what gives in this equation is Kawhi's offensive usage.

His defensive ability is a once-in-a-generation type thing. Best wing defender since Pippen right now. Players who can score 20-25 points per game aren't.

No. I responded to his retard take that the spurs need a better offensive player. The spurs didn't need a better offensive player in games 3,4 and 5 last i checked.

I'm all for having more offensive firepower, but it doesn't have to be an offensive elite..The spurs just need another guy that can score 15ppg on a consistent basis..

[apalisoc_9]

kawhi 18-22PPG
Some other guy hovering around 15PPG
I do still believe that Tony can still put up efficient 13PPG numbers
Diaw
Splitter
Green can all score double digits.

The spurs don't need another offensive elite..Leonard scoring 20ppg is enough.

The system will be the player that will be the number 1 option.

[apalisoc_9]

What the hell? :lol This guy...

I'm talking about future seasons in which the Spurs are rebuilding around Kawhi and Green. My point is simply that, moving forward, they will need to find another scorer to compliment those two. Kawhi will be the all-around threat that he is, not merely a scorer.

No, you specifically said the spurs needed a better offensive option than Kawhi to win..That's retarded because the spurs didn't need one last year and they don't look like they need one this year either.

My last response to a media generated fan.

[Arcadian]

I was actually talking about further into the future when all of those guys (except Green) are gone.

Furthermore, my point was that they will need someone who focuses more on scoring, so that Kawhi can remain the defensive monster that he is. You know, the whole point of this thread?

[midnightpulp]

No. I responded to his retard take that the spurs need a better offensive player. The spurs didn't need a better offensive player in games 3,4 and 5 last i checked.

I'm all for having more offensive firepower, but it doesn't have to be an offensive elite..The spurs just need another guy that can score 15ppg on a consistent basis..

That means Kawhi will have to up his scoring (and usage) to 25ppg+. Duncan and Manu are a foot out the door into retirement. Parker's offense comes and goes (and how long before Parker just totally declines and washes up?). And Green is an off ball player who relies on others to create for him. I agree that's all we need if the Spurs can find replacements for the Big 3, but it's more than likely we'll have to court a high profile FA at some point who can average 20ppg, since it's really tough to build a "complete" team where every player is an offensive threat (like the team we have now), especially considering the egos of NBA players.

[Arcadian]

If the Spurs want to remain title contenders...

See, the word "remain" indicated that I was referring to the future.

[spurraider21]

apalisoc pretty sinsitive ITT :lol

[midnightpulp]

No, you specifically said the spurs needed a better offensive option than Kawhi to win..That's retarded because the spurs didn't need one last year and they don't look like they need one this year either.

My last response to a media generated fan.

They did in certain series in which Kawhi had to work harder on defense, like against OKC, where he had to guard both Durant and Westbrook at times.

And we can't keep appealing to games 3-5 of last year's Finals. Those 3 games from Kawhi were historically good. All time great good. The only reason his "per game" stats weren't Jordan gaudy is because each game was a blowout and he sat for long stretches during the 4th.

I hope it's a sign of things to come, but we can't count on it being the norm since very few players have ever performed that well in an NBA Finals.

[apalisoc_9]

That means Kawhi will have to up his scoring (and usage) to 25ppg+. Duncan and Manu are a foot out the door into retirement. Parker's offense comes and goes (and how long before Parker just totally declines and washes up?). And Green is an off ball player who relies on others to create for him. I agree that's all we need if the Spurs can find replacements for the Big 3, but it's more than likely we'll have to court a high profile FA at some point who can average 20ppg, since it's really tough to build a "complete" team where every player is an offensive threat (like the team we have now), especially considering the egos of NBA players.

Not really.

15ppg is just a ballpark. I also made a thread a few months ago saying that Tiago is ready for the extra 2 or 3 PPG.

I really hate Gasol because I think this team needs a scoring guard going forward. I understand that tony will probably decline even more next year, but if he stays around 12-14PPG during his three year deal, that's still pretty darn good in a spurs system...I'm of the minority that think getting a high end bench scorer should be a bigger priority than a Gasol type of player. The Guards and the wings are the blood of this system..Would be nixe to have a gasol, but I wouldn't care much about him..

If horford is easier and cheaper..Go for him. I'm not a huge fan of Horford, but i admire his willingness to be a team player.

[apalisoc_9]

The spurs will never get a huge profile FA so erase that idea. Just build around Kawhi and get good scorers.

The system is the 2nd superstar here...

[lefty20]

So pretty much everyone agrees that forcing Kawhi into a LBJ or KD role will likely result in a less effecient Kawhi on offense and a tired Kawhi on defense. Don't really know what everyone is arguing about.

[midnightpulp]

Not really.

15ppg is just a ballpark. I also made a thread a few months ago saying that Tiago is ready for the extra 2 or 3 PPG.

I really hate Gasol because I think this team needs a scoring guard going forward. I understand that tony will probably decline even more next year, but if he stays around 12-14PPG during his three year deal, that's still pretty darn good in a spurs system...I'm of the minority that think getting a high end bench scorer should be a bigger priority than a Gasol type of player. The Guards and the wings are the blood of this system..Would be nixe to have a gasol, but I wouldn't care much about him..

If horford is easier and cheaper..Go for him. I'm not a huge fan of Horford, but i admire his willingness to be a team player.

No doubt. Gasol is a nice player, but there isn't a massive difference between him and Splitter at this point. But when Gino retires, Parker hits the wall, our guard scoring will dry up and Kawhi will then truly have to play like James Harden, which none of us want. I like Mills, but I don't buy him as a starter. Nor Cory Joseph.

Agreed. Going after Gasol is less important than filling the void that will be left by Manu and Parker's decline.

[r0drig0lac]

He is already the first offensive option

[Kool Bob Love]

He's not even a 5th option. Fucking pussy.