The chain of alphas in league history

[ambchang]

These are not necessarily players who win every single year, but the most dominant individuals

1940s/early 50s: George Mikan - The first superstar in the league, really dominated the game with his low post scoring and rebounding

Mid 50s: Neil Johnston - The league was hitting a lull in talent. Cousy had a case as well

Late 50s: Bob Pettit - Was on the verge of dominating the league, until the arrival of ....

60s: Wilt Chamberlain - The numbers he put up are still unmatched. He totally dominated the league with his size and athleticism. Russell was good, but Wilt was better individually

70s - Kareem: Captain skyhook had the unique combination of skill and size, and dominated the league for a solid decade. Dr. J would have taken the mantle, but he was playing in the ABA. Walton would have been the successor, but his foot didn't hold up.

Early 80s - Moses: The guy couldn't speak, but he was the best offensive rebounder the league ever saw. He bullied his way in the paint, and absolutely dominated the league as an individual in the early 80s

Mid 80s - Bird: He couldn't run, he couldn't jump, but he could play basketball. 3 straight MVPs, court vision that remained one of the best in the history of the league, share-eyed shooting for a big, rugged rebounder.

Late 80s/Early and late 90s - Jordan: You can make a case for Magic in the late 80s, but Jordan really was the man as he put up insane stats year after year to his way of the title of the best player in the history of the league

Mid 90s - Hakeem: Thanks to the baseball odyssey of Jordan, Hakeem became the best individual player in the league. I am the one in the camp that even if Jordan DID stay in the game, the Rockets would have won those b2bs. In fact, I believe the Bulls will likely not get the 2nd 3-peat if it wasn't for Jordan's mini-retirement.

Early 00s - Shaq: 3-peat, gave jobs to the likes of Scott Pollard and Mengke Bateer, warped the way the game was played just because of his dominance.

Mid Early 00s - Duncan: From a statistical standpoint, Duncan was as good as Shaq in the early 00s, but Shaq got the rings. But from 02 to 05, Duncan carried the Spurs to two NBA titles, one of which while the Spurs were supposedly rebuilding.

Mid 00s - Dirk: The Mavs may have choked in the finals in 06, but Dirk put up impressive numbers during the time. I always felt Dirk was underrated throughout his carreer.

Late 00s to now - Lebron: He had been the consensus best player in the game for a while now, and it really actually started around 08 or so. He had a few disappointing playoff series, but any team with a Lebron the last decade had been a contender, regardless of the quality of the supporting cast. That's dominance.

[FkLA]

Dirk would've gone down as a soft, gifted offensive player if he hadn't won in '11. Putting him as the alpha of the mid 00s (Miami choke, GS choke) is fucking hilarious. :lol

[ambchang]

Mid 00s - Dirk: The Mavs may have choked in the finals in 06, but Dirk put up impressive numbers during the time. I always felt Dirk was underrated throughout his carreer.


Dirk would've gone down as a soft, gifted offensive player if he hadn't won in '11. Putting him as the alpha of the mid 00s (Miami choke, GS choke) is fucking hilarious. :lol

Case in point.

[DMC]

As much as I like Dirk, he doesn't belong on that list. The Mavs were not a force long enough for him to be there. You have to consider Kobe, like it or not. Winning b2b FMVP at least puts him in the conversation, unless you want to bias the results.

[ambchang]

As much as I like Dirk, he doesn't belong on that list. The Mavs were not a force long enough for him to be there. You have to consider Kobe, like it or not. Winning b2b FMVP at least puts him in the conversation, unless you want to bias the results.

I crowbarred Dirk in there because I really couldn't put anybody on the list from 06 to around 08. The best player in those couple of years was Dirk. Kobe had huge numbers but he was exposed as a me-first chucker, Wade didn't really didn't have the numbers to back him up, Nash was overrated, and Duncan wasn't as dominant as he was in the early 00s.

As for Kobe, when he won b2b FMVP, Lebron was clearly the man. It wasn't even Kobe's best stretch in his career, he just had a better team around him.

Being absent from the list doesn't really mean much. Shaq nudged Duncan in the early 00s despite how historically great Duncan was, and Duncan nudged Garnett in the next few years. Same with the Bird/Jordan/Magic scenario. Magic was an all time great, but the years he really dominated were also the years Jordan dominated, but Jordan was just better. Likewise for Rick Barry, Jerry West, and Bill Walton. Loved those guys, but their peaks just wasn't high enough when compared to Wilt, Kareem and such.

[DMC]

I crowbarred Dirk in there because I really couldn't put anybody on the list from 06 to around 08. The best player in those couple of years was Dirk. Kobe had huge numbers but he was exposed as a me-first chucker, Wade didn't really didn't have the numbers to back him up, Nash was overrated, and Duncan wasn't as dominant as he was in the early 00s.

As for Kobe, when he won b2b FMVP, Lebron was clearly the man. It wasn't even Kobe's best stretch in his career, he just had a better team around him.

Being absent from the list doesn't really mean much. Shaq nudged Duncan in the early 00s despite how historically great Duncan was, and Duncan nudged Garnett in the next few years. Same with the Bird/Jordan/Magic scenario. Magic was an all time great, but the years he really dominated were also the years Jordan dominated, but Jordan was just better. Likewise for Rick Barry, Jerry West, and Bill Walton. Loved those guys, but their peaks just wasn't high enough when compared to Wilt, Kareem and such.

Since when has "me first" not meant "alpha"? The term "alpha" means "first". He was atop the league during those years, despite his shitty personality and chucking ways.

[hater]

Leroids an alpha :lol

[m>s]

Dirk would've gone down as a soft, gifted offensive player if he hadn't won in '11. Putting him as the alpha of the mid 00s (Miami choke, GS choke) is fucking hilarious. :lol
Racism plays a part in your takes sometimes

[Clipper Nation]

MVPippen carried DKPERIOD

[100%duncan]

2014 onwards: Kawhi Leonard

[Thread]

2014 onwards: Kawhi Leonard

Coupled with the 1st 5th it's why The Bag stays in Texas.

[100%duncan]

Coupled with the 1st 5th it's why The Bag stays in Texas.
Fine by me. Defending champs and youre down there shining shoes. Faster, Cub.

[Thread]

Fine by me. Defending champs and youre down there shining shoes. Faster, Cub.

I was just checkin' assholes, %. You always come to mind immediately.

[100%duncan]

NOW you talk. So quick to dispatch old friends huh. When the forum wanted you gone and called you chickenshit, I covered for you you old fart.


Me.

[FkLA]

I crowbarred Dirk in there because I really couldn't put anybody on the list from 06 to around 08. The best player in those couple of years was Dirk.

lol wut

You telling me if you could choose one player for a must-win game during those years you'd choose Dirk? I don't even think Mavfan would choose him over Duncan and LeBron. :lol

[100%duncan]

Dirk's should be replaced with TD. He was still the Alpha upto 2008.

[ambchang]

Since when has "me first" not meant "alpha"? The term "alpha" means "first". He was atop the league during those years, despite his shitty personality and chucking ways.

there are a lot of firsts, alpha means first in line on the totem pole, as in best in the league.

[ambchang]

lol wut

You telling me if you could choose one player for a must-win game during those years you'd choose Dirk? I don't even think Mavfan would choose him over Duncan and LeBron. :lol

Yes. Especially when Dirk carried the Mavs over the Spurs in 06.

And yes with regards to Lebron as well. There's an argument in 08, but I'd take Dirk over Lebron for 06 and 07.

[100%duncan]

Yes. Especially when Dirk carried the Mavs over the Spurs in 06.

And yes with regards to Lebron as well. There's an argument in 08, but I'd take Dirk over Lebron for 06 and 07.

Duncan was great in that series too, without the Manu foul, we would have 3peated

[Thread]

Duncan was great in that series too, without the Manu foul, we would have 3peated

Hell, without Amy you'd be 3peated in less than 2 months.

[Brazil]

For the 00's it's Duncan, Kobe and Lebron... that's already 3 phases for 00s early, mid and late... not sure how creating mid early stuff makes sense

Then if you have to choose one name for 00s it's Duncan and it's not even close.

[100%duncan]

Hell, without Amy you'd be 3peated in less than 2 months.

Without Amy Im light 4

[Thread]

Without Amy Im light 4

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the newest thing in south Texas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can dish it, motherfucker, but, you cannot take it.

[100%duncan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the newest thing in south Texas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can dish it, motherfucker, but, you cannot take it.

Im right here Cubs, unlike you last June.


Tee hee.

[DMC]

MVPippen carried DKPERIOD

Another HH37 schtick shows up on the black market.

[100%duncan]

Another HH37 schtick shows up on the black market.

CN takes it too far in the ass

[FkLA]

Yes. Especially when Dirk carried the Mavs over the Spurs in 06.

And yes with regards to Lebron as well. There's an argument in 08, but I'd take Dirk over Lebron for 06 and 07.

lol are you German?

Duncan won a ring during that period while Dirk was getting bullied by GS.

[Thread]

Im right here Cubs, unlike you last June.


Tee hee.

Fine. You're back on the list.

[100%duncan]

Fine. You're back on the list.

Go back and fuck your mother some more.

[ambchang]

Duncan was great in that series too, without the Manu foul, we would have 3peated
Certainly was, but Dirk played Duncan to a standstill, and his regular season work was just better (Duncan was having his minutes monitored and such)


lol are you German?

Duncan won a ring during that period while Dirk was getting bullied by GS.

Winning a ring is a team accomplishment, Dirk won an MVP during that time. As for the GS series, they match up with Dirk perfectly, and the rest of the Mavs didn't step up. It's like saying Duncan choked vs. the Grizzlies in the 8 series.

[Thread]

8

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[Clipper Nation]

Another HH37 schtick shows up on the black market.
The truth is a "schtick"?

[FkLA]

Winning a ring is a team accomplishment, Dirk won an MVP during that time. As for the GS series, they match up with Dirk perfectly, and the rest of the Mavs didn't step up. It's like saying Duncan choked vs. the Grizzlies in the 8 series.

:lol Then why the hell do you use 'Dirk beat TD' as part of your argument? That was a team accomplishment too. IDC if GS matched up well with him or not, a true alpha would've pulled through. Detroit had the horses and length to bother Timmy in '05 and he came out on top with a title and FMVP.

'11 Timmy is a shitty comparison since he was clearly past his prime by then. Dirk was in the midst of his in '07.

[DMC]

The truth is a "schtick"?

Just stop

[Clipper Nation]

Just stop
Why did the "alpha" have a 182-228 record (2-9 in the postseason) without MVPippen holding his hand?

[ambchang]

:lol Then why the hell do you use 'Dirk beat TD' as part of your argument? That was a team accomplishment too. IDC if GS matched up well with him or not, a true alpha would've pulled through. Detroit had the horses and length to bother Timmy in '05 and he came out on top with a title and FMVP.

'11 Timmy is a shitty comparison since he was clearly past his prime by then. Dirk was in the midst of his in '07.

I used the Dirk beat Timmy argument because the Spurs were more loaded than the Mavs outside of Duncan/Dirk, and the Mavs still won. True that the Mavs matched up well with the Spurs with their midrange game, but in the grand scheme of things, Dirk played better than Duncan in the mid 00s.

As I mentioned, the Mavs matched up with the Spurs in 06, according to you, Duncan should have pulled through in that series.

11 was used to illustrate the importance of matchups.

[Killakobe81]

Wow what a shitty premise you got 2 pages though ...nice work.:toast

[FkLA]

I used the Dirk beat Timmy argument because the Spurs were more loaded than the Mavs outside of Duncan/Dirk, and the Mavs still won.

Timmy did his part. They didn't lose because Dirk outplayed Timmy, they lost because the Mavs outplayed the Spurs. Kinda dumb to say the Spurs were more loaded when the players outside of Timmy/Dirk ended up being the difference in the series.


True that the Mavs matched up well with the Spurs with their midrange game, but in the grand scheme of things, Dirk played better than Duncan in the mid 00s.

Is defense not part of basketball or something?


As I mentioned, the Mavs matched up with the Spurs in 06, according to you, Duncan should have pulled through in that series.

He did his job the rest of the team came up short. Did Dirk do his vs GS? Also quit acting like the Mavs weren't legit title contenders that year. That wasn't a gimmick team like GS.


11 was used to illustrate the importance of matchups.

No, like I said it's stupid. That Memphis frontline wouldn't have been a match-up problem for Timmy during his prime.

[Double-Up]

lol no Kobe on the list...:lol

[ambchang]

Timmy did his part. They didn't lose because Dirk outplayed Timmy, they lost because the Mavs outplayed the Spurs. Kinda dumb to say the Spurs were more loaded when the players outside of Timmy/Dirk ended up being the difference in the series.

Parker, Manu and Bowen > Josh Howard.



Is defense not part of basketball or something?

It is, but let's take 2006, Dirk had a WS of 17.7 (league leading) and and VORP of 6.0. Duncan had 10.8 and 4.6. Even taking defense into account, Dirk outshone Duncan.




He did his job. Did Dirk play his vs GS? Also quit acting like the Mavs weren't legit title contenders that year. That wasn't a gimmick team like GS.

The 07 Mavs were not a gimmick team, the 07 GSW was though, and their gimmick was matching up perfectly with the mavs. The Warriors hounded Dirk relentlessly during that series. it wasn't that he just missed, he was jacking up way less shots than he normally does.



No, like I said it's stupid. That Memphis frontline wouldn't have been a match-up problem for Timmy during his prime. And yet it was in 2011. Duncan played poorly in that series, even by the 2011 standards, and it's because the Grizzlies match up with Timmy very well.

[FkLA]

2006 WCSF
Timmy: 32.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg on 56%shooting
Dirk: 27.1 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 2.7 apg on 53% shooting

Yet somehow Dirk was the better player because his team won? Fuck outta here. :lol

[ambchang]

2006 WCSF
Timmy: 32.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.6 bpg on 56%shooting
Dirk: 27.1 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 2.7 apg on 53% shooting

Yet somehow Dirk was the better player because his team won? Fuck outta here. :lol

Are we looking at alphas in series now? Sorry, I thought we have been talking about periods. My bads.

Who was the alpha for minutes 16 to 19 in Game 4 of that series?

[100%duncan]

Are we looking at alphas in series now? Sorry, I thought we have been talking about periods. My bads.

Who was the alpha for minutes 16 to 19 in Game 4 of that series?
Yeah go back to periods tbh.

You put Dirk in a period where TD rang twice. Dirk's came during Lebron's.

[Arcadian]

Yeah, Dirk doesn't belong. If we're going by playoff performance (which we should), Duncan was the best player from 03-08.

[ambchang]

Yeah go back to periods tbh.

You put Dirk in a period where TD rang twice. Dirk's came during Lebron's.

Rings are team accomplishments.

I will never put Billups as the alpha in 04, nor will I put Kawhi as the alpha in 14.

[ambchang]

lol no Kobe on the list...:lol

I tried, but I couldn't find a slot for him.

Ultimately, it was either putting him in for 05 to 07 for missing the playoffs in his prime, or putting him in for the repeat where Gasol had a higher WS than Kobe did.

[DAF86]

I know this is a Kobe hating thread but :lmao at putting Dirk on this list.

[FkLA]

Parker, Manu and Bowen > Josh Howard.

Here take a look for yourself at how the rest of the guys outside of Duncan/Dirk performed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCS.html


It is, but let's take 2006, Dirk had a WS of 17.7 (league leading) and and VORP of 6.0. Duncan had 10.8 and 4.6. Even taking defense into account, Dirk outshone Duncan.

Do people even use WS anymore? I'd rather just settle the discussion by looking at the fact that one was the best post player in the league+arguably the best defensive anchor and the other wasn't.


The 07 Mavs were not a gimmick team, the 07 GSW was though, and their gimmick was matching up perfectly with the mavs. The Warriors hounded Dirk relentlessly during that series. it wasn't that he just missed, he was jacking up way less shots than he normally does.

Yeah, teams normally hound first options. True alphas perform regardless.


And yet it was in 2011. Duncan played poorly in that series, even by the 2011 standards, and it's because the Grizzlies match up with Timmy very well.

He was past his prime so why does it matter? Do you not realize how dumb it is to bring it up to defend an 'alpha' that faltered horribly during his prime? Give me an example of another one of your alphas faltering like that during their prime then you'd have a point.

[DAF86]

I crowbarred Dirk in there because I really couldn't put anybody on the list from 06 to around 08. The best player in those couple of years was Dirk. Kobe had huge numbers but he was exposed as a me-first chucker, Wade didn't really didn't have the numbers to back him up, Nash was overrated, and Duncan wasn't as dominant as he was in the early 00s.

As for Kobe, when he won b2b FMVP, Lebron was clearly the man. It wasn't even Kobe's best stretch in his career, he just had a better team around him.

Being absent from the list doesn't really mean much. Shaq nudged Duncan in the early 00s despite how historically great Duncan was, and Duncan nudged Garnett in the next few years. Same with the Bird/Jordan/Magic scenario. Magic was an all time great, but the years he really dominated were also the years Jordan dominated, but Jordan was just better. Likewise for Rick Barry, Jerry West, and Bill Walton. Loved those guys, but their peaks just wasn't high enough when compared to Wilt, Kareem and such.

Lebron easily.

[whitemamba]

lmao @ duncan being an alpha, fuckin op and his fantasy takes.

[FkLA]

Are we looking at alphas in series now? Sorry, I thought we have been talking about periods. My bads.

Who was the alpha for minutes 16 to 19 in Game 4 of that series?

Don't be purposely obtuse. You brought up 'Dirk beating Duncan' to support your argument that he was better from 06-08. I'm simply showing you that Duncan was the best player on the floor during that series (and the 06-08 period). The fact that the Mavs won doesn't change that.

[FkLA]

Rings are team accomplishments.

I will never put Billups as the alpha in 04, nor will I put Kawhi as the alpha in 14.

Yeah, because the impact those two had on those title winning teams is even comparable to the impact Timmy had on the 05/07 teams. :rollin

[100%duncan]

lmao @ duncan being an alpha, fuckin op and his fantasy takes.

Lol at kobe being an alpha to any championship team. Needing a big man to hold his hand or he was nothing but a tmac who missed the playoffs :lmao


Lakers :lmao
Kobrick :lmao
Nothing without daddy and pau :lmao

[Monostradamus]

:lol ambchang went fishing for kobe fans but instead hooked a few dirk haters.

[100%duncan]

I love dirk tbh. My fave non spur alongbwith bron.

[ambchang]

Here take a look for yourself at how the rest of the guys outside of Duncan/Dirk performed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCS.html

What was I supposed to infer from this? Seriously, I am not too clear on what point you are trying to make.


Do people even use WS anymore? I'd rather just settle the discussion by looking at the fact that one was the best post player in the league+arguably the best defensive anchor and the other wasn't.

WS really never was an overly popular metric, mostly due to how difficult it is to understand. That doesn't undermine how effective it is to evaluate a player's value to a team though.

Besides, Dirk was an MVP during that time.



Yeah, teams normally hound first options. True alphas perform regardless.

Untrue. Duncan didn't perform that well in 04 vs. the Lakers, ditto 05 vs. the Pistons. He did as well as any one could in 05 considering he was guarded by the Wallace brothers, but he didn't really perform regardless.



He was past his prime so why does it matter? Do you not realize how dumb it is to bring it up to defend an 'alpha' that faltered horribly during his prime? Give me an example of another one of your alphas faltering like that during their prime then you'd have a point.

Jordan vs. the Sonics in 96
Hakeem vs. the Sonics in 96 as well
Wilt on multiple occasions
Lebron in 11 vs. the Mavs
Shaq vs. the Spurs in either 01 or 02 (don't remember exactly, but he struggled)


Don't be purposely obtuse. You brought up 'Dirk beating Duncan' to support your argument that he was better from 06-08. I'm simply showing you that Duncan was the best player on the floor during that series (and the 06-08 period). The fact that the Mavs won doesn't change that.

You brought up taking him in a game, Dirk dominated in Game 7 of that series, scoring the and 1 to take the game to OT, then taking over in OT. At the very least, Dirk played Duncan to a tie in that game.


Yeah, because the impact those two had on those title winning teams is even comparable to the impact Timmy had on the 05/07 teams. :rollin

You don't think they did? The entire Pistons offense was built around Billups. The Spurs were much more reliant on Kawhi than people give him credit for. Sure it wasn't Timmy level important, but Kawhi was the best player on the Spurs last year.

[ambchang]

Lebron easily.

Not in 06 and 07, I can see 08, but I'd take Dirk over Lebron in 06 and 07 easily.

[DMC]

Why did the "alpha" have a 182-228 record (2-9 in the postseason) without MVPippen holding his hand?
I'm not going to get into MJ's legacy. My point is that you're dickriding someone else's schtick.

The forums suffer for a few reasons:

1. Unoriginal takes: This is the premier reason this forum suffers. You have a few guys who explore the space, and everyone else just walk behind them mindlessly repeating the same shit. No one wants to read Bill Simmons as interpreted by Scoop Jackson. You have a few Bill Simmons types here but mostly Scoop Jacksons. Don't be a Scoop Jackson, be a Bill Simmons (or someone of that caliber).

2. Unoriginal alternate accounts: It's a fact that Mouse and the troll forum regulars have almost every conceivable name from showbiz and literature in the past 50 years already reserved but some of you have alt names that are interesting choices, could be used well, but you just drum right along with the same uninteresting shit you do from your primary accounts. It makes the concept moot.

3. Overplaying a losing hand: This is when a schtick doesn't work (Like the Stevie Johnson troll) yet the user half heartedly uses it to troll and still posts as if he's too lazy to switch back to his primary account.

4. Poor basketball accumen: This is the majority of the forum, which is fine if you're here to learn, but many of you (Philo, for example) will argue until you're blue in the face that high assists for a player means they are moving the ball well. You have a superficial level understanding of the game; to you more points for player A means player A is better. You occasionally scratch your head as to why the rest of the team doesn't pitch in, why this guy has to do all the work. You make heros of ball hogs. You and your ilk are why the NBA is full of hyped up chuckers masquerading as superstar players..the Melo's, Westbrooks and Kobes of the league. You're often called "player fans" but there are some player fans who understand the game, they just prefer to follow specific players.

5. Last but not least, turncoats and bandwagonners:This forum has those as well. Some of these guys who appear to have switched sides are using it as a troll, but some will actually switch sides every few years so they can argue from a winning platform. It's hard to argue basketball as a player fan when your player is under a mound of shit. You guys are the reason socialism doesn't work, you won't pull your weight. You take from the funds but you never donate. You are the *******s of the forum. You have no backbones and no honor, it's a video game to you.


I hope some of this at least points you in the right direction. It doesn't matter what MJ did or didn't do. What matters is that you are just parroting someone you think gets e-cred for saying it.

[ElNono]

I used to have little respect for Dirk, but after that title run, you just gotta tip your hat and recognize. The talent was always there, the question always was about the mental fortitude to climb the mountain. Once he did it, you can't put that against him.

[DAF86]

Not in 06 and 07, I can see 08, but I'd take Dirk over Lebron in 06 and 07 easily.

The fuck? on '06 Lebron was already averaging 31.4ppg on 48% shooting, 6.6 apg, 7 rpg, 1.6 stls and 1 bpg all while being one of the best defenders on the league. I don't know if he was already the best player in the World by that time but he was definitely better than Nowitzki.

[djohn2oo8]

I'm not going to get into MJ's legacy. My point is that you're dickriding someone else's schtick.

The forums suffer for a few reasons:

1. Unoriginal takes: This is the premier reason this forum suffers. You have a few guys who explore the space, and everyone else just walk behind them mindlessly repeating the same shit. No one wants to read Bill Simmons as interpreted by Scoop Jackson. You have a few Bill Simmons types here but mostly Scoop Jacksons. Don't be a Scoop Jackson, be a Bill Simmons (or someone of that caliber).

2. Unoriginal alternate accounts: It's a fact that Mouse and the troll forum regulars have almost every conceivable name from showbiz and literature in the past 50 years already reserved but some of you have alt names that are interesting choices, could be used well, but you just drum right along with the same uninteresting shit you do from your primary accounts. It makes the concept moot.

3. Overplaying a losing hand: This is when a schtick doesn't work (Like the Stevie Johnson troll) yet the user half heartedly uses it to troll and still posts as if he's too lazy to switch back to his primary account.

4. Poor basketball accumen: This is the majority of the forum, which is fine if you're here to learn, but many of you (Philo, for example) will argue until you're blue in the face that high assists for a player means they are moving the ball well. You have a superficial level understanding of the game; to you more points for player A means player A is better. You occasionally scratch your head as to why the rest of the team doesn't pitch in, why this guy has to do all the work. You make heros of ball hogs. You and your ilk are why the NBA is full of hyped up chuckers masquerading as superstar players..the Melo's, Westbrooks and Kobes of the league. You're often called "player fans" but there are some player fans who understand the game, they just prefer to follow specific players.

5. Last but not least, turncoats and bandwagonners:This forum has those as well. Some of these guys who appear to have switched sides are using it as a troll, but some will actually switch sides every few years so they can argue from a winning platform. It's hard to argue basketball as a player fan when your player is under a mound of shit. You guys are the reason socialism doesn't work, you won't pull your weight. You take from the funds but you never donate. You are the *******s of the forum. You have no backbones and no honor, it's a video game to you.


I hope some of this at least points you in the right direction. It doesn't matter what MJ did or didn't do. What matters is that you are just parroting someone you think gets e-cred for saying it.
:tu

[FkLA]

What was I supposed to infer from this? Seriously, I am not too clear on what point you are trying to make.

The Spurs were so supposedly so much more loaded than Dallas that year, yet the guys outside of Dirk/TD swung the series in favor of Dallas. How does that make sense to you?


WS really never was an overly popular metric, mostly due to how difficult it is to understand. That doesn't undermine how effective it is to evaluate a player's value to a team though.

Besides, Dirk was an MVP during that time.

So you'd take Dirk over the best post player+best defensive anchor bc of WS?

Nash won two MVPs during that same time.


Untrue. Duncan didn't perform that well in 04 vs. the Lakers, ditto 05 vs. the Pistons. He did as well as any one could in 05 considering he was guarded by the Wallace brothers, but he didn't really perform regardless.

There's a difference between having to work hard for your points and getting bullied. 2011 Dirk for example only shot 41% vs Miami but I wouldn't say he got bullied like '07 Dirk did. That was a monumental chokejob by your alpha no matter how much you try to attribute it to 'matchups'.


Jordan vs. the Sonics in 96
Hakeem vs. the Sonics in 96 as well
Wilt on multiple occasions
Lebron in 11 vs. the Mavs
Shaq vs. the Spurs in either 01 or 02 (don't remember exactly, but he struggled)

Again those guys weren't bullied except '11 LeBron. He straight up choked just like Dirk did in '07. Only difference is there was no player that was the same caliber as '07 TD that you could make an argument for as being better than Bron, Dirk was the closest one probably and only during the playoffs.


You brought up taking him in a game, Dirk dominated in Game 7 of that series, scoring the and 1 to take the game to OT, then taking over in OT. At the very least, Dirk played Duncan to a tie in that game.

If we ignore defense, at most he played him to a tie.


You don't think they did? The entire Pistons offense was built around Billups. The Spurs were much more reliant on Kawhi than people give him credit for. Sure it wasn't Timmy level important, but Kawhi was the best player on the Spurs last year.

:lol Do you think so? I'm not saying they weren't important to their teams but they also weren't in their prime Top 5 players of all-time like TD was in 05/07.

[ambchang]

The fuck? on '06 Lebron was already averaging 31.4ppg on 48% shooting, 6.6 apg, 7 rpg, 1.6 stls and 1 bpg all while being one of the best defenders on the league. I don't know if he was already the best player in the World by that time but he was definitely better than Nowitzki.

Lebron put up great stats, but it's not like Dirk was incomparable. Dirk was putting up 26.6 on 48% (41% on threes), 9 rebounds and 3 assists. But Dirk was dominating the league at that point. he was leading the Mavs to new heights, contending in the rough western conference with an iffy supporting cast.

[FkLA]

Gotta love the hyperbole. A Finals loss followed by two first round exits equals 'new heights'. :lol

[ambchang]

The Spurs were so supposedly so much more loaded than Dallas that year, yet the guys outside of Dirk/TD swung the series in favor of Dallas. How does that make sense to you?

See Mavs vs. Heat, 2011.


So you'd take Dirk over the best post player+best defensive anchor bc of WS?

For a single game that season? Yes. Tough tough yes, but yes.


Nash won two MVPs during that same time.

Duncan won zero.


There's a difference between having to work hard for your points and getting bullied. 2011 Dirk for example only shot 41% vs Miami but I wouldn't say he got bullied like '07 Dirk did. That was a monumental chokejob by your alpha no matter how much you try to attribute it to 'matchups'.

What is that difference? How do you define it?


Again those guys weren't bullied except '11 LeBron. He straight up choked just like Dirk did in '07. Only difference is there was no player that was the same caliber as '07 TD that you could make an argument for as being better than Bron, Dirk was the closest one probably and only during the playoffs.

So one series against a team that was specifically created to stop Dirk undid three years' worth of work by Dirk.


If we ignore defense, at most he played him to a tie.

And yet Dirk took the Mavs to OT with that and-1.


:lol Do you think so? I'm not saying they weren't important to their teams but they also weren't in their prime Top 5 players of all-time like TD was in 05/07.

Billups was every bit as important to the Pistons in 04 as Duncan was to the Spurs in 07.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Certainly was, but Dirk played Duncan to a standstill, and his regular season work was just better (Duncan was having his minutes monitored and such)



Winning a ring is a team accomplishment, Dirk won an MVP during that time. As for the GS series, they match up with Dirk perfectly, and the rest of the Mavs didn't step up. It's like saying Duncan choked vs. the Grizzlies in the 8 series.

The entire point of being alpha is you are the best and are a mismatch in any matchup.

Lakers in early 2000s had Kobe Shaq Horry and a bunch of scrubs. Samaki Walker and Rick F:lolx.

[elbamba]

Duncan dominated as late as 07-08 with almost 19/11/3/2 pts/rb/ass/bl.

Playoffs that year were pretty good as well going to the WCF at 20/14.5/3/2.

In sum Duncan was arguably the best player in the league from 2003-2008. You could add as early as 2001 but the Spurs teams were not as good as LA teams in 01 and 02.

[FkLA]

See Mavs vs. Heat, 2011.

First off, the Spurs weren't stacked to that extent (the Heat's three max players were in their prime). Second, the Heat's best player choked hard that year. The Spurs best player in '06 (Duncan) didn't. Not sure why you keep making dumb comparisons.


For a single game that season? Yes. Tough tough yes, but yes.

:lol Hope you're proud to be in the 1% that would make that choice.


Duncan won zero.

So Nash>Dirk>Duncan? Let's give the mid 00s slot to Nash then if you want to bring up MVPs.


What is that difference? How do you define it?

Well none of them shot in the mid 30s for one. Then there's the competition, you bring up how alphas fared against great teams/defenses to justify how Dirk fared against an 8th seed Nelly squad. There's bounce back games, Dirk pretty much bent over and spread his cheeks all series. The end result, most of the guys you listed won those series.


So one series against a team that was specifically created to stop Dirk undid three years' worth of work by Dirk.

Well, that and the fact that he had another first round exit the following year and came up short in the Finals the previous year. Or to summarize he didn't win shit during the time you claim he was the alpha of the league...isn't that an oxymoron? :lol


And yet Dirk took the Mavs to OT with that and-1.

So that play gives him the nod even though Duncan scored more points and was asked to anchor a defense? :lol


Billups was every bit as important to the Pistons in 04 as Duncan was to the Spurs in 07.

smh wow

'04 Billups: 16.4 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg on 39% shooting
'07 Duncan: 22.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.3 apg, 3.1 bpg on 52% shooting

[Brazil]

I'm not going to get into MJ's legacy. My point is that you're dickriding someone else's schtick.

The forums suffer for a few reasons:

1. Unoriginal takes: This is the premier reason this forum suffers. You have a few guys who explore the space, and everyone else just walk behind them mindlessly repeating the same shit. No one wants to read Bill Simmons as interpreted by Scoop Jackson. You have a few Bill Simmons types here but mostly Scoop Jacksons. Don't be a Scoop Jackson, be a Bill Simmons (or someone of that caliber).

2. Unoriginal alternate accounts: It's a fact that Mouse and the troll forum regulars have almost every conceivable name from showbiz and literature in the past 50 years already reserved but some of you have alt names that are interesting choices, could be used well, but you just drum right along with the same uninteresting shit you do from your primary accounts. It makes the concept moot.

3. Overplaying a losing hand: This is when a schtick doesn't work (Like the Stevie Johnson troll) yet the user half heartedly uses it to troll and still posts as if he's too lazy to switch back to his primary account.

4. Poor basketball accumen: This is the majority of the forum, which is fine if you're here to learn, but many of you (Philo, for example) will argue until you're blue in the face that high assists for a player means they are moving the ball well. You have a superficial level understanding of the game; to you more points for player A means player A is better. You occasionally scratch your head as to why the rest of the team doesn't pitch in, why this guy has to do all the work. You make heros of ball hogs. You and your ilk are why the NBA is full of hyped up chuckers masquerading as superstar players..the Melo's, Westbrooks and Kobes of the league. You're often called "player fans" but there are some player fans who understand the game, they just prefer to follow specific players.

5. Last but not least, turncoats and bandwagonners:This forum has those as well. Some of these guys who appear to have switched sides are using it as a troll, but some will actually switch sides every few years so they can argue from a winning platform. It's hard to argue basketball as a player fan when your player is under a mound of shit. You guys are the reason socialism doesn't work, you won't pull your weight. You take from the funds but you never donate. You are the *******s of the forum. You have no backbones and no honor, it's a video game to you.


I hope some of this at least points you in the right direction. It doesn't matter what MJ did or didn't do. What matters is that you are just parroting someone you think gets e-cred for saying it.

:lol

:tu

[Brazil]

:lol ambchang went fishing for kobe fans but instead hooked a few dirk haters.

pretty much this...

He fished the I speak spanish krew

[Arcadian]

Duncan dominated as late as 07-08 with almost 19/11/3/2 pts/rb/ass/bl.

Playoffs that year were pretty good as well going to the WCF at 20/14.5/3/2.

In sum Duncan was arguably the best player in the league from 2003-2008. You could add as early as 2001 but the Spurs teams were not as good as LA teams in 01 and 02.

I agree. Duncan was the best individual player from 01-08 and 99. It was only in Shaq's 2000 season and playoff run that he was unquestionably the best, and that happens to be the year Duncan missed the playoffs for microfracture knee surgery!

[TDfan2007]

I love Dirk, and he's one of my favorite non-Spurs of all time, but he was never the best player in the league. He was at times the league's most unstoppable offensive player, but never the best player.

If we're discussing the 2000s, then breaking it into arbitrary portions doesn't make much sense. I'll just list the best players year after year.

2000-2001: Shaq (put up otherworldly numbers and dominated the league like few have ever done)
2002-2003: Timmy (went toe-to-toe with the Lakers in 2002 and then took a rebuilding squad to the 2003 title)
2004: KG (as much as I dislike KG, he was on another level that year)
2005-2008: Timmy (2 rings as the alpha while playing both ends of the floor)
2009-2010: Kobe (Timmy and KG declined due to age/injury, and LeBron still hadn't developed a consistent jumper or post game)
2011-present: LeBron (developed a jumpshot, overcame mental hurdles, and became the league's best 2-way player)

[Killakobe81]

I love Dirk, and he's one of my favorite non-Spurs of all time, but he was never the best player in the league. He was at times the league's most unstoppable offensive player, but never the best player.

If we're discussing the 2000s, then breaking it into arbitrary portions doesn't make much sense. I'll just list the best players year after year.

2000-2001: Shaq (put up otherworldly numbers and dominated the league like few have ever done)
2002-2003: Timmy (went toe-to-toe with the Lakers in 2002 and then took a rebuilding squad to the 2003 title)
2004: KG (as much as I dislike KG, he was on another level that year)
2005-2008: Timmy (2 rings as the alpha while playing both ends of the floor)
2009-2010: Kobe (Timmy and KG declined due to age/injury, and LeBron still hadn't developed a consistent jumper or post game)
2011-present: LeBron (developed a jumpshot, overcame mental hurdles, and became the league's best 2-way player)

Not a bad list and valid points but I would have said Kobe 2008-2010 (Duncan was not very dominant that year). but agree with the rest ...

all that being said Amb is trying to play coy but we all know his agendas ...

I love Dirk, like you he is one of my favorite non Lakers (Timmy too) but he was never the alpha of the league not in his MVP year or even his title year. He was near the top but never quite that but that's ok. His run is still very impressive. It is Shaq to Tim to Kobe to Lebron and lebron has been that the past 5 years. I think it's more
Shaq from 2000-2001
Tim from 2002-2007
Kobe from 2008-2010
and Lebron ever since .. and counting.
.It's not just because those guys won Tim didnt repeat in his "reign" but I think those were the dominant players from a media/fan/player's perspective. No this is not based on stats more like a "torch" passing so to speak. Dirk, Wade, TMAC, AI, KG, Pierce, Nash, VC were all great for a while in the post MJ era... but none of those guys were the best players in the game to me. It's Shaq, then Tim then Kobe then Lebron.

Note: The fact Tim has beaten all those guys in a series (IIRC) except AI and Pierce is pretty damn impressive ESPECIALLY since Tim beat some of them as duos. See those are the kind of things that matter more to me than win shares and other bullshit stats. Tim like I admitted last June is now the best player since MJ. Really only Lebron can be argued but his resume with that last title you just cant argue with it anymore. I accept it as the truth.
But ...Tim wasnt the best player in 1999. I thought he would be very soon but Shaq and others have a case as the best player that year. It was a strike year and Duncan was the best player when it mattered.

[Killakobe81]

LOL thinking amb was serious ...

[FkLA]

Not a bad list and valid points but I would have said Kobe 2008-2010 (Duncan was not very dominant that year). but agree with the rest ...

all that being said Amb is trying to play coy but we all know his agendas ...

I love Dirk, like you he is one of my favorite non Lakers (Timmy too) but he was never the alpha of the league not in his MVP year or even his title year. He was near the top but never quite that but that's ok. His run is still very impressive. It is Shaq to Tim to Kobe to Lebron and lebron has been that the past 5 years. I think it's more
Shaq from 2000-2001
Tim from 2002-2007
Kobe from 2008-2010
and Lebron ever since .. and counting.
.It's not just because those guys won Tim didnt repeat in his "reign" but I think those were the dominant players from a media/fan/player's perspective. No this is not based on stats more like a "torch" passing so to speak. Dirk, Wade, TMAC, AI, KG, Pierce, Nash, VC were all great for a while in the post MJ era... but none of those guys were the best players in the game to me. It's Shaq, then Tim then Kobe then Lebron.

Note: The fact Tim has beaten all those guys in a series (IIRC) except AI and Pierce is pretty damn impressive ESPECIALLY since Tim beat some of them as duos. See those are the kind of things that matter more to me than win shares and other bullshit stats. Tim like I admitted last June is now the best player since MJ. Really only Lebron can be argued but his resume with that last title you just cant argue with it anymore. I accept it as the truth.
But ...Tim wasnt the best player in 1999. I thought he would be very soon but Shaq and others have a case as the best player that year. It was a strike year and Duncan was the best player when it mattered.

I would start LeBrons reign a year or two sooner. He had won back to back MVPs by 2010. Kirby deserves a year at most, probably '08.

[Clipper Nation]

2009-2010: Kobe
:lmao No.

[Mr Bones]

Bill Russell wins 11 championships in 13 years and doesn't even get an honorable mention? This is why I don't like the term Alpha... Guys like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson said Russell was the single biggest obstacle preventing them from winning year after year. You don't win that frequently against your contemporaries without being a dominant player. Yesterday, after Westbrook's game, his own coach said he shot too much, and numerous opposing players said Westbrook dominating the ball helped their cause. He's an alpha, but he's an alpha with a low BBIQ. No one ever said that about Bill Russell.

[Killakobe81]

I would start LeBrons reign a year or two sooner. He had won back to back MVPs by 2010. Kirby deserves a year at most, probably '08.

Mehh still needed to win tough to give it without that but I don't care enough to argue that ...LeBron was great.

[DAF86]

Lebron put up great stats, but it's not like Dirk was incomparable. Dirk was putting up 26.6 on 48% (41% on threes), 9 rebounds and 3 assists. But Dirk was dominating the league at that point. he was leading the Mavs to new heights, contending in the rough western conference with an iffy supporting cast.

Put it any way you want it but in '06 Dirk Nowitzki wasn't individually better than Lebron James.

[lefty]

I agree with ambchang on Hakeem

[ambchang]

The entire point of being alpha is you are the best and are a mismatch in any matchup.

Lakers in early 2000s had Kobe Shaq Horry and a bunch of scrubs. Samaki Walker and Rick F:lolx.

Are you trying to compare Kobe to Josh Howard? I mean, you are talking about the best second fiddle of all time vs. a pot-head. Come on.


First off, the Spurs weren't stacked to that extent (the Heat's three max players were in their prime). Second, the Heat's best player choked hard that year. The Spurs best player in '06 (Duncan) didn't. Not sure why you keep making dumb comparisons.

I used your criteria, and you kept changing them. At the end of the day, there will be no two situations that is exactly the same, but the principal point is the same.


:lol Hope you're proud to be in the 1% that would make that choice.

You did a poll?


So Nash>Dirk>Duncan? Let's give the mid 00s slot to Nash then if you want to bring up MVPs.

When did I say that? MVP was all but a consideration.


Well none of them shot in the mid 30s for one. Then there's the competition, you bring up how alphas fared against great teams/defenses to justify how Dirk fared against an 8th seed Nelly squad. There's bounce back games, Dirk pretty much bent over and spread his cheeks all series. The end result, most of the guys you listed won those series.

Most of those guys had better help.


Well, that and the fact that he had another first round exit the following year and came up short in the Finals the previous year. Or to summarize he didn't win shit during the time you claim he was the alpha of the league...isn't that an oxymoron? :lol

Since when is making the Finals a dent to a legacy?

Winning a championship requires more than an alpha, it requires good management, that's why Jordan was already an alpha in the late 80s, and Wilt was the alpha over Russell back in the day, and Kareem was the alpha even in the late 70s.


So that play gives him the nod even though Duncan scored more points and was asked to anchor a defense? :lol

Part of it.


smh wow

'04 Billups: 16.4 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg on 39% shooting
'07 Duncan: 22.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.3 apg, 3.1 bpg on 52% shooting

04 Billups: 11.3 WS
07 Duncan: 13.0 WS

Pretty close.


Put it any way you want it but in '06 Dirk Nowitzki wasn't individually better than Lebron James.

He was.

[Infinite_limit]

Hakeem "First Round lose" Dream

http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/Hakeem_zpsophzkdjk.png

[DAF86]

He was.

Very compelling point.

[ambchang]

Very compelling point.

About as compelling as this:


Put it any way you want it but in '06 Dirk Nowitzki wasn't individually better than Lebron James.

[DAF86]

About as compelling as this:

Yeah, it's not like I had previously posted Lebron's stats in comparisson to Dirk's or something like that.

[ambchang]

Yeah, it's not like I had previously posted Lebron's stats in comparisson to Dirk's or something like that.

And it's not like I haven't written paragraphs supporting Dirk > Lebron

[djohn2oo8]

Hakeem "First Round lose" Dream

http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/Hakeem_zpsophzkdjk.png
He was in the finals in his second year. Why did you cut that out?

[Sean Cagney]

As much as I like Dirk, he doesn't belong on that list. The Mavs were not a force long enough for him to be there. You have to consider Kobe, like it or not. Winning b2b FMVP at least puts him in the conversation, unless you want to bias the results.

^^^^ This.
Hakeem "First Round lose" Dream

http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/Hakeem_zpsophzkdjk.png

As someone said he made the finals before that and actually there is two finals wins on there so how does that prove a point? Yes first round exits but how many players to three finals and win one?

[DAF86]

And it's not like I haven't written paragraphs supporting Dirk > Lebron

Would you care to resume that in a 2 or 3 lines paragraph for me? 'Cause to tell you the truth I haven't read the wall of words you and my nigga FkLA were writing, tbh.

[ambchang]

Would you care to resume that in a 2 or 3 lines paragraph for me? 'Cause to tell you the truth I haven't read the wall of words you and my nigga FkLA were writing, tbh.

This site is blocked on my work computer so it's tough to type. Just go back in this thread will you?

[FkLA]

Would you care to resume that in a 2 or 3 lines paragraph for me? 'Cause to tell you the truth I haven't read the wall of words you and my nigga FkLA (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17213) were writing, tbh.

cliff notes: win shares trumps all, basically Dirk is the alpha of 06-08 and '04 Billups is equivalent to '07 Duncan because WS says so

Also losing a Finals despite a 2-0 series lead and a 14 pt lead heading into the 4th Qtr of Game 3 one year, then following it up with two first round exits including the greatest choke of all-time doesn't put a dent on your legacy.

[Killakobe81]

cliff notes: win shares trumps all, basically Dirk is the alpha of 06-08 and '04 Billups is equivalent to '07 Duncan because WS says so

Also losing a Finals despite a 2-0 series lead and a 14 pt lead heading into the 4th Qtr of Game 3 one year, then following it up with two first round exits including the greatest choke of all-time doesn't put a dent on your legacy.

LOL

[ambchang]

cliff notes: win shares trumps all, basically Dirk is the alpha of 06-08 and '04 Billups is equivalent to '07 Duncan because WS says so

Also losing a Finals despite a 2-0 series lead and a 14 pt lead heading into the 4th Qtr of Game 3 one year, then following it up with two first round exits including the greatest choke of all-time doesn't put a dent on your legacy.

Duncan lost vs. the Lakers after going up 2-0.
Duncan lost in the first round as the 2nd seed.
But no, those things only affect Dirk's legacy.

[FkLA]

What is up with you and your stupid comparisons? Hopefully you are just trolling tbh.

[ambchang]

What is up with you and your stupid comparisons? Hopefully you are just trolling tbh.

What is up with you and your stupid double standards? Hopefully you are just trolling.

[Thread]

What is up with you and your stupid double standards? Hopefully you are just trolling.

amb is on the rag again.

[Splits]

Fine. You're back on the list.

:lol look at this busted cornhole making lists

[Thread]

:lol look at this busted cornhole making lists

You're chock full of shit.

[Splits]

You're chock full of shit.

BB busted your hole. Busted it real good.

[Thread]

BB busted your hole. Busted it real good.

You're chock full of shit.

[Splits]

You're chock full of shit.

BB turned you around, upside down, fucked that cornhole, and you don't even have the decency to admit it.

Pussy.

[Thread]

BB turned you around, upside down, fucked that cornhole, and you don't even have the decency to admit it.

Pussy.

You're chock full of shit.

[Splits]

:cry Kobe :cry

[Thread]

^^^
You're chock full of shit.

[Splits]

:cry damn BB and Splits tore my hole :cry

[Thread]

^^^
You're chock full of shit.