Kawhi's Legacy...

[ElNono]

what kind of hit would it take if he can't lead this Spurs team to at least the 2nd round, tbh?

Pop has been selling him as our next franchise guy, and frankly, it's difficult to argue with it when you look at his entire body of work so far, especially in the playoffs...

Looking at young Tim, he at least always had the Spurs in the 2nd round, and those were the years of the three-peat Lakers, and with a weaker roster...

It it an unfair comparison? Is it putting too much pressure on the guy? Not really a franchise talent? Thoughts?

[100%duncan]

Depends on his usage rate in the playoffs tbh. Your best player can't shoot just 12 times a game and expect him to "carry" the load.

[apalisoc_9]

Pop seems sold on him.

It's going to be tough replicating TD's run though.

have you seen how good the west is nowadays? Durant and Ibaka will be back next season, NOP will be a better team, and Utah is an upcoming team...

[ElNono]

Pop seems sold on him.

It's going to be tough replicating TD's run though.

have you seen how good the west is nowadays? Durant and Ibaka will be back next season, NOP will be a better team, and Utah is an upcoming team...

The main question is about this season.

[wildchild]

It it an unfair comparison?

Yes. Tim was the best player of his generation. Unique. Like Jordan, Lebron, that type of player.

However, Pop never limited healthy/prime Tim minutes in playoffs like he does with Kawhi. Leonard will never play Tim's minutes and get that number of shots per game.

[wildchild]

Depends on his usage rate in the playoffs tbh. Your best player can't shoot just 12 times a game and expect him to "carry" the load.

[apalisoc_9]

The main question is about this season.

It's huge for Kawhi, IMO. People will question his franchise tag if the spurs fail to advance past the 2nd round.

But I don't think people or even pop would put this on kawhi though.

It's not like they are fully utilizing him as their best player..

[ElNono]

12 FGA is not that bad, tbh... for comparison's sake, Tim averages 16 FGA/game career-wise in the playoffs. It's true it was closer to 18 FGA in his first 4 seasons, but he did have a weaker roster around, so that kinda makes sense.

The minutes thing is puzzling though, I would agree with that.

[TheGreatYacht]

http://youtu.be/tRyWF8fHPCg

[hooperflash]

Tim Duncan was something the league wasn't used to at the time. A fair comparison would probably be Anthony Davis, a very skilled big man coached by someone mentored by Pop who hasn't been able to succeed from a team aspect, he's gotten his numbers but again he's facing the number 1 seed so you can't be too hard on him. Kawhi has the opportunity to really showcase his inner Duncan, the workings of Pop in his mind, being able to adjust, to take what is given and play within himself. It always gives me much confidence to listen closely at the little he has to say every postgame interview because usually it outlines the type of performance that follows. Being patient in the post, not turning the ball over, and making better decisions off the double teams is what stood out to me. The way they're defending him is going to be crucial for us since I know we have the right people in place to make them pay for doubling our wing player. This dude is inspired and he has help, he won't let this series end in quick defeat that's for sure. He's too great to allow that.

[Kool Bob Love]

Maybe thats why the Spurs didn't max him out when they had the chance. Pop knew from the start of the season.

[Arc]

kawhi probably would've played more game 1 but didn't he pick up two fouls in the first quarter?

[Stabula]

Kawhi Leonard is an exceptional talent and the Spurs are more than fortunate to have gotten a player of his caliber. However...there will never be another Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is a once in a generation player. Kawhi Leonard will not do what Tim Duncan did, as good as Leonard is. Unfair comparison, tbh.

[Kool Bob Love]

Kawhi Leonard is an exceptional talent and the Spurs are more than fortunate to have gotten a player of his caliber. However...there will never be another Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is a once in a generation player. Kawhi Leonard will not do what Tim Duncan did, as good as Leonard is. Unfair comparison, tbh.

Kawhi won a Finals MVP at the same age Duncan and Magic won theirs. Its a fair comparison tbh.

[wildchild]

It's true it was closer to 18 FGA in his first 4 seasons, but he did have a weaker roster around, so that kinda makes sense.
Last game Thompson 17 Lebron 18 Butler 19 CP3 20...Kawhi 12, even when the Spurs were shooting 36% and KL 58%. A franchise player should beg for the ball like Kawhi must do when he's wide open or has a favorable matchup?

Pop can say what he wants about the face of the franchise but never treated Leonard like one.

[100%duncan]

12 FGA and his mins is bad if you have a 23 year old superstar tbh. Kawhi should play at least 35-37 mpg. He can handle it.

BTW, passing out of the double was never his problem in game 1, it was what his teammates on the floor did (poor shooting, aimless passing, being afraid to attack Jordan in the paint.) :lol

[hooperflash]

12 FGA and his mins is bad if you have a 23 year old superstar tbh. Kawhi should play at least 35-37 mpg. He can handle it.

BTW, passing out of the double was never his problem in game 1, it was what his teammates on the floor did (poor shooting, aimless passing, being afraid to attack Jordan in the paint.) :lol

I have a feeling he will get more playing time, if Pop knows what's good for him he will.

[100%duncan]

Pop's coaching/gameplan has been weird. As I've said before, during the win streak they clearly looked for Kawhi in the post all the time. They didn't care, they ran screens for him so that he could get a favourable match-up/sweet spot in the post. But the past 2 games, they have yet to do that. I don't know why they decided to suddenly deviate from what was working.

[ElNono]

Last game Thompson 17 Lebron 18 Butler 19 CP3 20...Kawhi 12, even when the Spurs were shooting 36% and KL 58%. A franchise player should beg for the ball like Kawhi must do when he's wide open or has a favorable matchup?

Pop can say what he wants about the face of the franchise but never treated Leonard like one.

I think comparing to other teams is simply pointless. The Spurs just don't do ISOs anywhere near as much. Like I said, Tim is probably a better barometer, considering the system and what not, but you also have to take into account that in Tim's first 3-4 seasons, the offensive options were limited. It was him and DRob doing the heavy lifting. Yet, Tim averaged around 18 FGA. This is a much more balanced roster.

We'll see about the minutes thing, but Tim did use to average almost 40mpg... I'm puzzled at times with Pop sitting out Kawhi too much...

[100%duncan]

I think comparing to other teams is simply pointless. The Spurs just don't do ISOs anywhere near as much. Like I said, Tim is probably a better barometer, considering the system and what not, but you also have to take into account that in Tim's first 3-4 seasons, the offensive options were limited. It was him and DRob doing the heavy lifting. Yet, Tim averaged around 18 FGA. This is a much more balanced roster.

We'll see about the minutes thing, but Tim did use to average almost 40mpg... I'm puzzled at times with Pop sitting out Kawhi too much...

Pop, as great as he is, doesn't realise the importance of having at least danny or kawhi in at all times.

[spursparker9]

Not really entirely is Leonard's lead.

Enrique still take a lot of shots tbh.

[Mr Bones]

What happens this year in the playoffs will have zero impact on Kawhi's legacy. He's already a FMVP and he has a dozen or more years ahead of him. In 2020, Kawhi will be 28 yr old star. Put that in perspective...

[Silver&Black]

Pop's coaching/gameplan has been weird. As I've said before, during the win streak they clearly looked for Kawhi in the post all the time. They didn't care, they ran screens for him so that he could get a favourable match-up/sweet spot in the post. But the past 2 games, they have yet to do that. I don't know why they decided to suddenly deviate from what was working.

I think they did try to establish Kawhi early in the low post....

The problem was they doubled the very first time...and we didn't handle it well. Got trapped IIRC...and threw a rainbow pass cross court. Giving the D time to adjust.

I don't blame Kawhi for it at all...but we've got to make quicker decisions when he gets doubled. Surrounding him with shooters is a start...but that doesn't solve everything. I have faith he (and the rest of the team) will execute and get the ball moving next game.

[100%duncan]

I think they did try to establish Kawhi early in the low post....

The problem was they doubled the very first time...and we didn't handle it well. Got trapped IIRC...and threw a rainbow pass cross court. Giving the D time to adjust.

I don't blame Kawhi for it at all...but we've got to make quicker decisions when he gets doubled. Surrounding him with shooters is a start...but that doesn't solve everything. I have faith he (and the rest of the team) will execute and get the ball moving next game.

Im starting to think if Pop replaces Tiago with Diaw in the starting line up

[TheGreatYacht]

Maybe thats why the Spurs didn't max him out when they had the chance. Pop knew from the start of the season.
This.

It's either 'The Beautiful Game' or 15-20 contested KawhISO pull-ups. You can't have both.

[Silver&Black]

Im starting to think if Pop replaces Tiago with Diaw in the starting line up

That would help if Kawhi gets doubled...no doubt. Then it's on Diaw to knock down the 3....or move the ball around the horn to the open guy.

[100%duncan]

This.

It's either 'The Beautiful Game' or 15-20 contested KawhISO pull-ups. You can't have both.
Why, tell that to Parker :lol

[100%duncan]

That would help if Kawhi gets doubled...no doubt. Then it's on Diaw to knock down the 3....or move the ball around the horn to the open guy.

It would also help Tiago's minutes/injury healing plus he gets to reunite with manu and do their pnr thing. The problem with that is 1. Does pop go patty over cojo 2. Baynes and splitter cant play together.

[Silver&Black]

It would also help Tiago's minutes/injury healing plus he gets to reunite with manu and do their pnr thing. The problem with that is 1. Does pop go patty over cojo 2. Baynes and splitter cant play together.

I mean if you start Diaw over Splitter...you're opening a Pandora's Box. Who's going to get a rebound against Jordan????

This is why Coaches in the NBA make the big $$$.

[TheGreatYacht]

Why, tell that to Parker :lol
Both of them need to quit that shit, tbqh

[wildchild]

I think comparing to other teams is simply pointless.
Sure, but the league has changed, the game has changed since DRob, I have never seen a star begging for the ball like Kawhi on this team.


We'll see about the minutes thing, but Tim did use to average almost 40mpg... I'm puzzled at times with Pop sitting out Kawhi too much
It's understandable in the regular season but in playoffs? Pop's preserving Kawhi for...the offseason.

[100%duncan]

Both of them need to quit that shit, tbqh
One shot 7/12 the other 4/11. Go figure tbh

[100%duncan]

I mean if you start Diaw over Splitter...you're opening a Pandora's Box. Who's going to get a rebound against Jordan????

This is why Coaches in the NBA make the big $$$.

They can gang rebound tbh. If pop makes that switch, that would be the least of their problems imho. For example a tiago cojo 2nd unit or a tiago baynes 2nd unit would be abysmal to the offense. We would need patty and unfortunately bonner.

[TheGreatYacht]

One shot 7/12 the other 4/11. Go figure tbh
One had to create his own shot, the other spotted up wide open. Go figure tbh

[100%duncan]

One had to create his own shot, the other spotted up wide open. Go figure tbh
Agreed. Kawhi indeed needs to keep continuing to create his own shot when his pg wont look for him tbh

[TheGreatYacht]

Agreed. Kawhi indeed needs to keep continuing to create his own shot when his pg wont look for him tbh
Yup, because if he creates for others... 4 turnovers

[100%duncan]

Yup, because if he creates for others... 4 turnovers

Much better than the pg who doesnt create for others and yet managed to commit 2 turnovers imho

[dabom]

Kawhi had 4 steals. Makes him even

[dabom]

Elnono is blaming Kawhi for yesterday? Wow just like brazil tbh. :lmao

[cd98]

Kawhi is a good, young player, but he's still developing in the role of go to scorer. He didn't get less shots up because of Pop or TP. He had the ball on the wing several times, saw Jordan come from the weak side, and then passed it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but he's not at the level where he's entirely comfortable turning that scenario into a mid range jumper or using quickness and length to challenge the shot blocker. When Tim had the keys to the Spurs, his offense was significantly more developed. He was mostly unguardable. Kawhi is working to get there, but he's not there yet. So the Spurs are in a weird place of giving him isos on the wing, yet still trying to get motion with everyone else. That leads to some games where everything clicks and he looks like a top ten player to some games where the offense just doesn't click and he looks like a top 25 player. Good news is that he is getting better at that role, but it's going to take time for him to get to the pinnacle. We are just trying to keep winning in the interim.

[itsamanuthree]

LoL @ The Great Fag feeling all butthurt

[100%duncan]

Kawhi is a good, young player, but he's still developing in the role of go to scorer. He didn't get less shots up because of Pop or TP. He had the ball on the wing several times, saw Jordan come from the weak side, and then passed it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but he's not at the level where he's entirely comfortable turning that scenario into a mid range jumper or using quickness and length to challenge the shot blocker. When Tim had the keys to the Spurs, his offense was significantly more developed. He was mostly unguardable. Kawhi is working to get there, but he's not there yet. So the Spurs are in a weird place of giving him isos on the wing, yet still trying to get motion with everyone else. That leads to some games where everything clicks and he looks like a top ten player to some games where the offense just doesn't click and he looks like a top 25 player. Good news is that he is getting better at that role, but it's going to take time for him to get to the pinnacle. We are just trying to keep winning in the interim.
He won't ever be or reach TD prime levels, as some have said those kinds of primes only come once in a generation. Of course he's also not yet elite offensively but not going to him more isn't going to help his development.

[RD2191]

One shot 7/12 the other 4/11. Go figure tbh


Agreed. Kawhi indeed needs to keep continuing to create his own shot when his pg wont look for him tbh
Mah nigga shitting all over the great faggot.

[loveforthegame]

He won't get any max offers this summer. That's for sure.

[daslicer]

He's a good player but great player that remains to be seen.

[100%duncan]

He's a good player but great player that remains to be seen.

Lol and what is great to you?

[hater]

I called him the next matrix and that is what he would be if he fails this year.

Same level as matrix 1.0

Lets hope kawhi is hungry enough to overcome this

[hater]

Lol and what is great to you?

A player that can take his team at least through 2 playoff rounds

[100%duncan]

A player that can take his team at least through 2 playoff rounds
Meh i love myself too much to waste my time talking to you tbh.

[kobexxx]

He has no leadership skills.. too quiet with no emotions.. he'll fade off w/o being noticed, once his athletic youth starts to regress - w/c is his only plus.

[in2deep]

A player that can take his team at least through 2 playoff rounds

agree 100%

only great players can take their team through the playoffs. the spurs were a machine last year so last year doesn't count.

this year, the machine is sputtering. It's up to Kawhi to carry them (IF he's a "great" player)

[MateoNeygro]

Kawhi won a Finals MVP at the same age Duncan and Magic won theirs. Its a fair comparison tbh.

Comparing Kawhi to Tim is a fair comparison? Kawhi is nowhere near the franchise changing player Tim is/was. I love Kawhi but Stabula is right, the comparison is assanine.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

None. It took Jordan his 8th season before he won a championship. Plus, the fact that the Clips are doubling Kawhi makes me think Rivers thinks about Kawhi the same as Pop does. Pop just needs to work some plays around Kawhi being doubled on the high post. I think we will see a few of these tomorrow night.

[DMC]

Leonard isn't a leader. He's too introverted to lead. If he leads by example, that's fine, but a leader has to speak up and make their presence known. He might be the best player on the team, but at this point it's Tim who's the leader on the floor.

KL's career is too new to consider legacy. This year will have no affect on it as long as he doesn't have a Palace like brawl.

By the way, Anthony Davis is a franchise player, and he'll not carry his team to a single win most likely.

[loveforthegame]

He's 23. His career will clearly be over if he doesn't carry them past the first round. What team would take a chance on him after this possible failure?

[Ice009]

You can't really compare Kawhi to prime Tim. You really can't even compare hardly anyone else to a prime Tim Duncan as most players wouldn't do to well in that comparison.

However, if Kawhi wants to be as great as he has said he does, then he needs to start doing it now. You might not get many of these same chances/opportunities you're getting right now without Tim Duncan, so you gotta do everything that you can with the opportunity you've been given. Kawhi has got to do it. He can do it, he's more than capable, he's just got to believe it and his teammates need to believe it and trust him more too.

[hater]

to be fair in Duncan's first years, he was quiet too and DRob was the team leader.

[elbamba]

Offense ran through Tim pretty much from day 1, even with Robinson. More so his second season. The offense still rarely goes through Leonard.

One of the big issues in game 1, that is easily corrected, was the spacing. The Spurs had horrible spacing issues so many times Leonard would have no one to pass out to when he was doubled. I expect the spacing to be the biggest adjustment Pop makes for game two (perhaps going as far as to Bring Bonner or Diaw into the starting lineup)

[DarrinS]

There wasn't a "big 3" in Tim's first few seasons.

[monkeypunk]

Kawhi needs to get mad and let that feed his aggressiveness. Fighting through screens and drawing fouls will be key to his (and the Spurs) success in this series.

[look_at_g_shred]

It's tough to say. Like someone already mentioned, it does depend on how much the spurs use him offensively. I'd like to see them go at him from the beginning of the game. He needs to get those reps of creating out of a double team as Timmy did. I'm sure Tim has given him some pointers on what to do and look for once the double team comes. I think most of the problem was Kawhi and the team not expecting the double to come. I'm confident he and the spurs will adjust and be ready for game 2. Tbh.. last game Kawhi looked liked Kawhi in games 1 and 2 in the finals last year. No fire or determination to get the ball and be aggressive with it. We all know his defense will be there. I wonder if they defend the pick and roll differently next game. Kawhi likes to get hung up on screens for some reason and more often then not gets beat by his man, and the help defense it almost never there. We will see though.

[ElNono]

Elnono is blaming Kawhi for yesterday? Wow just like brazil tbh. :lmao

:lol chill. This is a thread about Kawhi's legacy taking an impact if we don't get to the 2nd round, nothing to do with individual games.

[ElNono]

Thanks for the responses, tbh...

I still doubt he's a franchise caliber guy, despite what Pop says, and I agree this would be his time to "break-out" if it's ever going to happen.

[RD2191]

Thanks for the responses, tbh...

I still doubt he's a franchise caliber guy, despite what Pop says, and I agree this would be his time to "break-out" if it's ever going to happen.
Ight, who hacked nonos account?

[ElNono]

Ight, who hacked nonos account?

:lol I've been saying the same thing for a while, rob... shouldn't be surprising, tbh...

[FkLA]

Is it really that hard for people to see who the offense still revolves around (unfortunately)? I'm on my phone so I'm simply going to post DMC 's quote since he explained it perfectly:


That's all fine and good except Tony still runs the offense. The fallacy of "it's your team" becomes painfully obvious during the post season when the supposed team owner doesn't get the ball. Team owners typically call the shots, but KL is still the 3rd or 4th option on offense, typically a last resort at this point. So it's still practically Tony's team, and while it's Tony's team he's going to continue playing how he's always played, just not with the same effectiveness. As as been said, his game hasn't really evolved to compensate for his loss of speed and quickness.

[dabom]

Thanks for the responses, tbh...

I still doubt he's a franchise caliber guy, despite what Pop says, and I agree this would be his time to "break-out" if it's ever going to happen.

What is a franchise caliber guy to you? He already does everything a franchise caliber guy does from my perspective.

[Phillip]

Is it really that hard for people to see who the offense still revolves around (unfortunately)? I'm on my phone so I'm simply going to post DMC (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=20665) 's quote since he explained it perfectly:

Probably revolves around him because he is still clearly a better option

If Kawhi is truly the better option, the offense would revolve around him

:lmao :lmao :lmao kawhi sucks :rollin

[hater]

What is a franchise caliber guy to you? He already does everything a franchise caliber guy does from my perspective.

Lead his team past round 1.

[dabom]

Is it really that hard for people to see who the offense still revolves around (unfortunately)? I'm on my phone so I'm simply going to post DMC (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=20665) 's quote since he explained it perfectly:

I think 80% of STers think the offense runs through kawhi. Fucking losers. :lmao They can't objectively watch a basketball game.

[dabom]

Probably revolves around him because he is still clearly a better option

If Kawhi is truly the better option, the offense would revolve around him

:lmao :lmao :lmao kawhi sucks :rollin

The mavs not getting past the first round. :lmao

[dabom]

Lead his team past round 1.

We'll get past the first round but it's still not his team offensively.

[FkLA]

Probably revolves around him because he is still clearly a better option

If Kawhi is truly the better option, the offense would revolve around him

:lmao :lmao :lmao kawhi sucks :rollin

Enlighten us with your genius basketball takes please , tell us how he's just a Tony Allen/Shane Battier type player. :tu

[RD2191]

:lol I've been saying the same thing for a while, rob... shouldn't be surprising, tbh...
I may have to rethink this apprenticeship...:depressed

[dabom]

He can't lead a team when he doesn't get the ball or the minutes.

[ElNono]

What is a franchise caliber guy to you? He already does everything a franchise caliber guy does from my perspective.

It's obviously very subjective. If you're starting a team today, would you build around him? I think the answer is more clear with some guys than others, and even when you think the answer is "yes", sometimes it works out (Tim, Dirk, Lebron, etc), and sometimes it does not (Vince Carter, T-Mac, etc). I don't know right at this minute that Kawhi is a guy I would build a team around.

[hater]

He can't lead a team when he doesn't get the ball or the minutes.

If his coach or team don't give him the ball is because he's not demanding it in the locker room. Not franchise type leadership imo

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong, I love Kawhi and what he brings to the team, tbh.. that has nothing to do with this discussion.

[hater]

Can u imagine if Jordan had not gotten the ball enough in a game??? :lol

[dabom]

It's obviously very subjective. If you're starting a team today, would you build around him? I think the answer is more clear with some guys than others, and even when you think the answer is "yes", sometimes it works out (Tim, Dirk, Lebron, etc), and sometimes it does not (Vince Carter, T-Mac, etc). I don't know right at this minute that Kawhi is a guy I would build a team around.

DPOY defense. Like best defender in the NBA player.
Draws double teams. His game does not revolve around athleticism. His big hands and long arms allows him to dunk with like 20 inches off the ground jumping. He can dunk on you if he really does want to though.
His offensive skill is limitless. He has a post up game. A floater game. A mid range game. A good 3 point shot. Does not break under pressure. He is a frnachise player to me. His team is in a transition and you know how transitions look. Just look at earlier in the year. The team couldn't play around kawhi and it hurt kawhis game. This whole season and postseason is a transition period. O and the cavs sucked ass for a lot of years when they had lebron. It takes time. I see the IT in him. I don't know if other people can recognize it besides me some other limited posters and Pop. Before even the first playoffs of kawhi's career, I was already calling him something special.

[ElNono]

DPOY defense. Like best defender in the NBA player.
Draws double teams. His game does not revolve around athleticism. His big hands and long arms allows him to dunk with like 20 inches off the ground jumping. He can dunk on you if he really does want to though.
His offensive skill is limitless. He has a post up game. A floater game. A mid range game. A good 3 point shot. Does not break under pressure. He is a frnachise player to me. His team is in a transition and you know how transitions look. Just look at earlier in the year. The team couldn't play around kawhi and it hurt kawhis game. This whole season and postseason is a transition period. O and the cavs sucked ass for a lot of years when they had lebron. It takes time. I see the IT in him. I don't know if other people can recognize it besides me some other limited posters and Pop. Before even the first playoffs of kawhi's career, I was already calling him something special.

Fair enough. I made this thread to gather opinions, all of them are valid.

[dabom]

We lost yesterday because everyone except like 3 players decided to play their worst basketball of the season. Manu kawhi and mills played good basketbal yesterday.

[ElNono]

We lost yesterday because everyone except like 3 players decided to play their worst basketball of the season. Manu kawhi and mills played good basketbal yesterday.

:lol let it go, has nothing to do with the last game

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I love Leonard, but he's not in the Tim Duncan conversation, or really any of the Big 3 in their primes...yet. I'm not sure he has the offensive tools to be that kind of player. A great defensive player...a force on that side of the ball, and an above-average offensive player by NBA standards.

Put very good talent around Leonard and he'll make them great...the difference you need to win in the playoffs, but he won't take a team of average talent and make them great the way Tim or David Robinson could. You won't insert him into a team and suddenly pick up 30 more regular season wins. He's the Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan...the Spurs "Michael Jordan" has been the Big 3 these last 3+ years for him.

[dabom]

I love Leonard, but he's not in the Tim Duncan conversation, or really any of the Big 3 in their primes...yet. I'm not sure he has the offensive tools to be that kind of player. A great defensive player...a force on that side of the ball, and an above-average offensive player by NBA standards.

Put very good talent around Leonard and he'll make them great...the difference you need to win in the playoffs, but he won't take a team of average talent and make them great the way Tim or David Robinson could. You won't insert him into a team and suddenly pick up 30 more regular season wins. He's the Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan...the Spurs "Michael Jordan" has been the Big 3 these last 3+ years for him.

Scottie was 29 years old when he lead the league in defensive rating. Kawhi is fucking 23. He's going to be better than Manu and Tony for sure. No one has compared him to Tim or DRob in their primes. Do people understand that every team has a salary cap. You can't pay Kawhi max and somehow end up with nothing but role players. The NBA has never been about 1 player ever. DRob sure couldn't do it by himself. And do people realize Kawhi is fucking 23 years old. Not even NEAR his fucking prime. :lmao And Kawhi ain't scottie. He is jordan on this team.

[hater]

Can u imagine if Jordan had not gotten the ball enough in a game??? :lol

[will_spurs]

ElNono showing trolls how proper trolling is done :tu

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Scottie was 29 years old when he lead the league in defensive rating. Kawhi is fucking 23. He's going to be better than Manu and Tony for sure. No one has compared him to Tim or DRob in their primes. Do people understand that every team has a salary cap. You can't pay Kawhi max and somehow end up with nothing but role players. The NBA has never been about 1 player ever. DRob sure couldn't do it by himself. And do people realize Kawhi is fucking 23 years old. Not even NEAR his fucking prime. :lmao And Kawhi ain't scottie. He is jordan on this team.

I think Kawhi deserves a max deal, and I believe the Spurs are gong to give him one. And I'm loving his continued emergence...I've been a supporter since he was at SDSU. My thought is that time will tell on his overall impact to this team and this league, but as of now, he doesn't have the offensive tools to be a franchise player. And if you look at how far he's come offensively since his SDSU days I'd say he could certainly get there. He'll never be a Duncan or a Robinson, though. Third place on the all-time Spurs list wouldn't be bad.

[kobexxx]

He's good player but not great - the likes of Horry, Artest, etc. Cant be franchise.

[SnakeBoy]

Thanks for the responses, tbh...

I still doubt he's a franchise caliber guy, despite what Pop says, and I agree this would be his time to "break-out" if it's ever going to happen.

He's not quite there yet but really it's a relatively small offensive improvement that would propel him to HOF'er level. Of course the league is full of names that could never quite make the jump from really good to great but given the rate of Kawhi's offensive improvement I don't see any reason not to think he will get there.

[SnakeBoy]

Another way of thinking about it is if Kawhi had stayed in college and was just coming into the NBA with his current skillset do you think he would be the #1 pick and be touted as the future of a franchise. I think the answer is an obvious yes.

[quentin_compson]

Kawhi's "legacy"?
I really don't understand the use of this term. The guy is just about to grow into being the main guy on a team. I know he won Finals MVP last season, but he wasn't the main guy on this Spurs team last playoffs. Talking about any kind of legacy seems awfully premature.

[DMC]

EL-N is using satire. Judging by the non-capitalized first letter, looks like crappypasta

[DarrinS]

Lol, the legacy of a 23 yr old.

[DarrinS]

EL-N is using satire.

Crap. My bad.

[SnakeBoy]

It's a legit topic by ST standards.

[Mikeanaro]

He aint leading shiet, with Parker running the show Kiwi is just another role player sadly, sure he is getting more touches but do you guys feels like this is his team like for example Paul George with Indiana or Derrick Rose with the Bulls?

[SnakeBoy]

He aint leading shiet, with Parker running the show Kiwi is just another role player sadly, sure he is getting more touches but do you guys feels like this is his team like for example Paul George with Indiana or Derrick Rose with the Bulls?

No I don't feel like the Spurs are a shitty team with no chance at a ring.

[ElNono]

Not trolling, tbh... there's been talk about Kawhi being great and our next franchise guy. He's been to two NBA Finals, 3 three WCF and earned a Finals MVP in his young career.

Everything could certainly sputter out sooner or later, and he can certainly do worse with a shittier roster (which is always in the cards), but if he does turn out to be great, it's inevitable to have this kind of conversations... what he's done with this or that roster, etc.

[DMC]

There's great then there's legendary. He won't be legendary, but he's already great.

[ElNono]

EL-N is using satire. Judging by the non-capitalized first letter, looks like crappypasta

not copypaste

[DMC]

Ok I'll bite:

I've said all along that Leonard isn't ready to lead the team. Being a scoring leader isn't the same as being a team leader. Kobe was a scoring leader, but Fisher was a team leader. Even when Tony led the Spurs in scoring, Tim led the team. Kawhi cannot be that kind of leader right now because he's still finding his niche. He might eventually be a leader, it's hard to say because we don't know enough about his philosophy on people and the game.

It doesn't matter if the Spurs get out of the 1st round or not, as far as Kawhi's legacy is concerned. There are plenty players in the HOF who couldn't get a team to the 1st round much of the time, and who couldn't get them out of it much of the time as well. So it's not his ability to carry a team through the playoffs that determines his legacy. It's how he handles the success he's already had. He's got more success right now than most players have in an entire career. How's he going to deal with missing the playoffs?

How will he deal with the doldrums of early January basketball when the rest of his team is fresh out of college or the D-league? That part of his career will help to define who he is. Also, if the team goes into a multi-year hibernation period, will he stick around to collect the check and appease the fans or will he want to be in the thick of things? There are only a small handful of players who's careers could survive sticking around during several years of shitty basketball while they stat pad in meaningless games. We know who some of those are, but then some of them went elsewhere finally.

It's not even fair to compare Kevin Garnett to Tim, much less comparing Kawhi. Tim is in the top 5 or 6 players to ever suit up. Kawhi probably isn't even in the top 100 right now, though some might argue that accolades like the FMVP changes that (I disagree, based on the team balance during the Finals).

[wildchild]

Not trolling, tbh...
Obviously, not. To satirize a situation it's necessary some similarities between the original and the comparison.

In this case, we can't assume similarities where simply they don't exist, talking about a player who he's 23 year old and is not even the offensive centerpiece of his team.


there's been talk about Kawhi being great and our next franchise guy. He's been to two NBA Finals, 3 three WCF and earned a Finals MVP in his young career
When people talk about legacy, they are talking about a player who is in his last years in the league, his final season, like a review of his career.
Or when a player has been in a franchise for a long time, then signs with another team, and people analize his legacy in his former team.

Kawhi's too young and supposedly he'll play for the Spurs at least one season more.


Everything could certainly sputter out sooner or later, and he can certainly do worse with a shittier roster (which is always in the cards), but if he does turn out to be great, it's inevitable to have this kind of conversations... what he's done with this or that roster, etc

Not sure, but it would be nice to bump this thread when he play for another team in next years, and talk about how he helped to rebuild his new team and get winning records or -not really nice- how he helped to destroy the Spurs playing for another West team.

[Mikeanaro]

No I don't feel like the Spurs are a shitty team with no chance at a ring.
Who is teaching you to read properly boysnake? you reading comprehension skills are lame, the subject here is leadership and you got it wrong... Im not talking about you eating a ring made of shit.

[ElNono]

When people talk about legacy, they are talking about a player who is in his last years in the league, his final season, like a review of his career.

That legacy is made up of moments throughout the player's career. This could be one such moment.

When Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime, nobody was really talking about Kobe's legacy back then, but now that you review the events, it's undeniable that event was a dark spot on his resume.

So, we're not talking about Kawhi's legacy. We're talking about an event that might shape the discussion (or not, thus the question in the OP) when we get to that point.

It's also entirely possible that Kawhi doesn't turn out to be great, and thus any kind of discussion about legacy is pointless. That's certainly a valid opinion too.

[ElNono]

Ok I'll bite:

I've said all along that Leonard isn't ready to lead the team. Being a scoring leader isn't the same as being a team leader. Kobe was a scoring leader, but Fisher was a team leader. Even when Tony led the Spurs in scoring, Tim led the team. Kawhi cannot be that kind of leader right now because he's still finding his niche. He might eventually be a leader, it's hard to say because we don't know enough about his philosophy on people and the game.

It doesn't matter if the Spurs get out of the 1st round or not, as far as Kawhi's legacy is concerned. There are plenty players in the HOF who couldn't get a team to the 1st round much of the time, and who couldn't get them out of it much of the time as well. So it's not his ability to carry a team through the playoffs that determines his legacy. It's how he handles the success he's already had. He's got more success right now than most players have in an entire career. How's he going to deal with missing the playoffs?

How will he deal with the doldrums of early January basketball when the rest of his team is fresh out of college or the D-league? That part of his career will help to define who he is. Also, if the team goes into a multi-year hibernation period, will he stick around to collect the check and appease the fans or will he want to be in the thick of things? There are only a small handful of players who's careers could survive sticking around during several years of shitty basketball while they stat pad in meaningless games. We know who some of those are, but then some of them went elsewhere finally.

It's not even fair to compare Kevin Garnett to Tim, much less comparing Kawhi. Tim is in the top 5 or 6 players to ever suit up. Kawhi probably isn't even in the top 100 right now, though some might argue that accolades like the FMVP changes that (I disagree, based on the team balance during the Finals).

:tu

[DMC]

When the rest of the team falters, you'd hope a star rises, win or lose. Kawhi might rise but even then it might not be enough. He might have great numbers but it might not be enough to overcome shitty play by guys who either have their legacy vacuum sealed already or who are side notes in NBA history in 6 years.

[TheGreatYacht]

I've said all along that Leonard isn't ready to lead the team. Being a scoring leader isn't the same as being a team leader. Kobe was a scoring leader, but Fisher was a team leader. Even when Tony led the Spurs in scoring, Tim led the team. Kawhi cannot be that kind of leader right now because he's still finding his niche. He might eventually be a leader, it's hard to say because we don't know enough about his philosophy on people and the game.
Pretty much this

[PublicOption]

they were double teaming kahwi........that's funny. Spurs destroy them the rest of the way.

[RD2191]

Double teamed yet had more points and assist than the starting PG.:lol

[wildchild]

When Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime, nobody was really talking about Kobe's legacy back then, but now that you review the events, it's undeniable that event was a dark spot on his resume.

So, we're not talking about Kawhi's legacy.
Or the thread's title is misleading...


We're talking about an event that might shape the discussion (or not, thus the question in the OP) when we get to that point.

It's also entirely possible that Kawhi doesn't turn out to be great, and thus any kind of discussion about legacy is pointless. That's certainly a valid opinion too.
Or we're doing unreal/mad futurology.

[DarrinS]

Double teamed yet had more points and assist than the starting PG.:lol

According to TheGreatYacht, he was only double teamed because Barnes is so horrible.

[RD2191]

According to TheGreatYacht, he was only double teamed because Barnes is so horrible.
:lolsalty lbj fan, tbh.

[Mikeanaro]

According to TheGreatYacht, he was only double teamed because Barnes is so horrible.
:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

According to TheGreatYacht, he was only double teamed because Barnes is so horrible.
Doc saw how much of a shit passer that role player was :lol

[RD2191]

Shit passer yet racked up more assist than the starting PG.:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Hard to get assists when Barnes is making Van Horn his bitch, and Green is in a slump :lol

[RD2191]

Shit passer yet racked up more assist than the starting PG.:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Hard to get assists when Barnes is making Van Horn his bitch, and Green is in a slump :lol

[RD2191]

Hard to get assists when Barnes is making Van Horn his bitch, and Green is in a slump :lol
Yet Kawhi had 3, Tim had 4, Diaw had 5 and Manu had 6. Crofl. Worst PG in the playoffs couldn't get past austin rivers.:lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

Yet Kawhi had 3, Tim had 4, Diaw had 5 and Manu had 6. Crofl. Worst PG in the playoffs couldn't get past austin rivers.:lmao
4 turnovers :lmao Mill$ had to hit miracle shots thanks to that nigga almost throwing the ball into the crowd

[RD2191]

Yet Kawhi had 3, Tim had 4, Diaw had 5 and Manu had 6. Crofl. Worst PG in the playoffs couldn't get past austin rivers.:lmao
:lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

4 turnovers :lmao Mill$ had to hit miracle shots thanks to that nigga almost throwing the ball into the crowd
Almost tore his rotator cuff again trying to catch Stevie Wonder's passes :lol

[ElNono]

Or the thread's title is misleading...

I thought the OP was pretty clear.


Or we're doing unreal/mad futurology.

Not much to talk about till tomorrow night... :wakeup

[RD2191]

Yet Kawhi had 3, Tim had 4, Diaw had 5 and Manu had 6. Crofl. Worst PG in the playoffs couldn't get past austin rivers.:lmao
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2162879/kfc-man-o.gif

[TheGreatYacht]

Almost tore his rotator cuff again trying to catch Stevie Wonder's passes :lol

http://youtu.be/tRyWF8fHPCg

[RD2191]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2162879/kfc-man-o.gif

[TheGreatYacht]

http://youtu.be/tRyWF8fHPCg

[phxspurfan]

what kind of hit would it take if he can't lead this Spurs team to at least the 2nd round, tbh?

Pop has been selling him as our next franchise guy, and frankly, it's difficult to argue with it when you look at his entire body of work so far, especially in the playoffs...

Looking at young Tim, he at least always had the Spurs in the 2nd round, and those were the years of the three-peat Lakers, and with a weaker roster...

It it an unfair comparison? Is it putting too much pressure on the guy? Not really a franchise talent? Thoughts?

Completely agree. If we fail in the 1st round here, this is almost all on him. He says he's a max player. He can't be shut down by the friggin Clippers.

[RD2191]

Completely agree. If we fail in the 1st round here, this is almost all on him. He says he's a max player. He can't be shut down by the friggin Clippers.
:lmaoWhen did he say he was a max player? Crofl

[phxspurfan]

:lmaoWhen did he say he was a max player? Crofl

Didn't his agent (or he) say that in the offseason? Then the Spurs didn't offer the deal

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240308&highlight=kawhi+wants+the+max

[phxspurfan]

and lol Parsons deal

[RD2191]

Of course his agent wants the max for Kawhi, that's his job.

[Brazil]

If we fail first round, blame will be mostly on him and if we go through he will get most credit, seems fair to me.

[dabom]

If we fail first round, blame will be mostly on him and if we go through he will get most credit, seems fair to me.

Mainstream player fans probably will. :lmao

They can't see how bad enrique is fucking this team and pop won't play kawhi 44 mpg. :lmao

They can't see the offense isn't ran through a young stud but through an injury prone over the hill PG that can't pass or shoot. :lmao

[BackHome]

He aint leading shiet, with Parker running the show Kiwi is just another role player sadly, sure he is getting more touches but do you guys feels like this is his team like for example Paul George with Indiana or Derrick Rose with the Bulls?

Manu did it for us but he had more skill then Kawhi on the offensive side. To me Kawhi is a good player he won't be close to Great until he can keep his dribble alive and take it to the rim - Yeah he needs to work on handling the rock if he wants to be the man.

[SnakeBoy]

Who is teaching you to read properly boysnake? you reading comprehension skills are lame, the subject here is leadership and you got it wrong... Im not talking about you eating a ring made of shit.

The Paul George led Pacers and the Rose led Bulls have never had realistic shot at a ring. That won't stop you player fans from whining about Parker stealing Kawhi's glory.

[Mikeanaro]

The Paul George led Pacers and the Rose led Bulls have never had realistic shot at a ring. That won't stop you player fans from whining about Parker stealing Kawhi's glory.
This is not about rings man, look what OP said.

¨what kind of hit would it take if he can't lead this Spurs team to at least the 2nd round, tbh?

Pop has been selling him as our next franchise guy, and frankly, it's difficult to argue with it when you look at his entire body of work so far, especially in the playoffs...

Looking at young Tim, he at least always had the Spurs in the 2nd round, and those were the years of the three-peat Lakers, and with a weaker roster...

It it an unfair comparison? Is it putting too much pressure on the guy? Not really a franchise talent? Thoughts¨

Do you see Kawhi as a leader right now? I barely see him demanding the ball, screaming, being the general and the guy who stands for his team as the face of the whole organization.
Kawhi is not a leader because Parker is hogging the ball, Kawhi is not a leader like Lebron is/was, low talker guy humble and everything good but we are in an era were Tim Manu and Parker are still here, maybe he is respectful and dont wanna shit the cake but he is not acting like the leader of the San Antonio Spurs.

[Mikeanaro]

Manu did it for us but he had more skill then Kawhi on the offensive side. To me Kawhi is a good player he won't be close to Great until he can keep his dribble alive and take it to the rim - Yeah he needs to work on handling the rock if he wants to be the man.
Agreed, he is good but we are waiting for his breakout like he did in the Finals... Pop told him to do it every night and its disappointing, so no he is not the Spurs leader yet.

[SnakeBoy]

Looking at young Tim, he at least always had the Spurs in the 2nd round, and those were the years of the three-peat Lakers, and with a weaker roster...


The first time Barkley faced TD he said "I've seen the future and it's wearing #21". Tim is a once in a lifetime type player so comparing Kawhi to Tim is pretty ridiculous.


Do you see Kawhi as a leader right now? I barely see him demanding the ball, screaming, being the general and the guy who stands for his team as the face of the whole organization.
Kawhi is not a leader because Parker is hogging the ball, Kawhi is not a leader like Lebron is/was, low talker guy humble and everything good but we are in an era were Tim Manu and Parker are still here, maybe he is respectful and dont wanna shit the cake but he is not acting like the leader of the San Antonio Spurs.

No one has said Kawhi is the leader of the team. He still needs to improve on the offensive end before he can be the real leader. He's only 23 years old.


This is not about rings man, look what OP said.


It's all about the rings man. That's why it stupid of you to compare him to other guys who led a shitty team early in their careers. Kawhi has had the luxury of playing on a championship team loaded with HOF'ers. He's becoming the leader of that team but he's not there yet. Again, he's only 23.

[SnakeBoy]

Manu did it for us but he had more skill then Kawhi on the offensive side. To me Kawhi is a good player he won't be close to Great until he can keep his dribble alive and take it to the rim - Yeah he needs to work on handling the rock if he wants to be the man.

Yeah, earlier in the year I said if Kawhi could develop a softer touch and solve the riddle of dribble penetration he'd be the next Jordan. He's improved his touch dramatically and has really been making steady progress on his handles. Two years ago he could barely dribble the ball. He still has a ways to go though.

[z0sa]

Sean was going on and on about how hobbled Tiago was... his health is the real issue here.

[100%duncan]

Sean was going on and on about how hobbled Tiago was... his health is the real issue here.

We all know that. But despite of it, if they shot a little better and defended during crucial moments like when they had a 2 pt lead hey could have won the game.

[Phillip]

Enlighten us with your genius basketball takes please , tell us how he's just a Tony Allen/Shane Battier type player. :tu

Perhaps you should enlighten us more with your genius basketball takes, in a world where Kawhi > Pippen, Diaw > Lee, and the Spurs are guaranteed to go 82-0 every season :tu

[Phillip]

The mavs not getting past the first round. :lmao

Were they expected to?

[hater]

Shane and Allen arents scared of physical contact tbh.

Mavfan with the fails :lol

[Mikeanaro]

The first time Barkley faced TD he said "I've seen the future and it's wearing #21". Tim is a once in a lifetime type player so comparing Kawhi to Tim is pretty ridiculous.



No one has said Kawhi is the leader of the team. He still needs to improve on the offensive end before he can be the real leader. He's only 23 years old.



It's all about the rings man. That's why it stupid of you to compare him to other guys who led a shitty team early in their careers. Kawhi has had the luxury of playing on a championship team loaded with HOF'ers. He's becoming the leader of that team but he's not there yet. Again, he's only 23.
But the subject was Pop selling Whi as a team leader and both agree he isnt, I named ringless shitty teams as an example, I could bring Lebron too but the subject here is leadership and thats something our big handed fella has not accomplished yet.

[Skull-1]

Almost tore his rotator cuff again trying to catch Stevie Wonder's passes :lol
:lol

[loveforthegame]

Bump.

[loveforthegame]

It had to be done. :lol

[wildchild]

It had to be done. :lol

:D

[ElNono]

Just writing history game by game, tbh...

[wildchild]

Kawhi Leonard silenced his critics in only 28 minutes. :toast

[loveforthegame]

Bump.

He's just not getting it done.

[dabom]

Bump.

He's just not getting it done.

Are you fucking serious? He is our best player out there. Everyone decided to do a noshow and Enrique can't shoot freethrows better than Deandre jordan. :lmao

[loveforthegame]

I'm being sarcastic. Leonard was the only player worth watching today. He had no help.

But there are those who like to blame him.

[DMC]

Kawhi Leonard silenced his critics in only 28 minutes. :toast

You better hope he doesn't come to a sudden stop or you'll be shoulders deep in his asshole.

[wildchild]

You better hope he doesn't come to a sudden stop or you'll be shoulders deep in his asshole.

Nah...His ass is safe with me. His back, too.

[loveforthegame]

Leonard just not doing enough. He's costing us this series. Legacy down the toilet.

[loveforthegame]

Leonard cannot carry the team obviously.