View Full Version : It is amazing Parker/Ginobili wore out before Duncan did
hitmantb
05-02-2015, 01:30 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly_p.html
In 2003 Duncan carried the weakest team ever to a championship over three-peat Lakers, with highest post season win share in the history of the NBA. One of the few lone wolf championships, MVP + FMVP in same season. Sophomore Parker/rookie Ginobili combined for 21 points a game at 40% shooting.
12 years later, Duncan is still averaging 16 points and 11 rebounds with 57% shooting, Parker/Ginobili combine for 16 points a game at . . . 35% shooting.
Honestly Pop/Duncan is so incredibly underrated for doing so much with so little. You just don't build the core of a championship team with 28th and 57th picks. Parker/Ginobili had great years, they are overachievers with huge heart, but they are very very very far from sidekicks of multiple championship teams like Pippen, Kobe, Gasol, Wade/Bosh, etc. As much as Duncan achieved, I wish prime Duncan played with other top 10/20 players of the league. The last time he had that was in 1999 with near-prime David Robinson and they went 15-2 in the post season.
DarrinS
05-02-2015, 01:31 PM
That 2003 team wasn't weak!
hitmantb
05-02-2015, 01:33 PM
That 2003 team wasn't weak!
2003 team - Duncan < any other championship team - one player.
Pocho La Pantera
05-02-2015, 01:34 PM
Worst thread ever
Blake
05-02-2015, 01:36 PM
Considering the style of play and the amount of summer play that Parker and Manu have done, it's as unsurprising as is theoretically possible to be
DarrinS
05-02-2015, 01:36 PM
But I agree with your thread title. :tu
mercos
05-02-2015, 01:58 PM
People that think the 2003 team was weak obviously did not watch the 2001 team. Duncan carried that team to the best record in the West and the Western Conference Finals. That was impressive.
testies
05-02-2015, 02:00 PM
How is it amazing if Manu is only a year older and has played countless international tournaments? And not to mention his crazy playing style.
Porker.. well, its Porker
Prime Manu was more than good enough to be a #2. Enrique was easily replaceable, never that great to begin with.
Pauleta14
05-02-2015, 02:31 PM
Terrible thread ...
Don't you think Tony and Manu helped Timmy prolonged his career?
Without those 2 taking less money and carrying the team offensively Timmy would have retired long ago imo...
Tony and Manu dominating games allowed Pop to rest Duncan, not only in PT but also in term of offensive load...
Sean Cagney
05-02-2015, 02:36 PM
People that think the 2003 team was weak obviously did not watch the 2001 team. Duncan carried that team to the best record in the West and the Western Conference Finals. That was impressive.
That 2002 team was even worse IMO! DA the year before was alot better than the old Steve Smith and they had AD running the PG! Tony was a 19 year old rookie and they had Cherokee Parks starting some playoff games :lol. He lead that team far and got 58 wins out of them! Who else could have done that?
OP you must of forgot Tim is not human it seems, not fair to compare anyone to him because it makes them look bad.
ffadicted
05-02-2015, 02:36 PM
I think we all knew Tony would wear out before Tim and Manu did (in terms of effectiveness at age).
Tony always relied on quickness and speed/agility to beat everybody in the paint... Timmy relies on fundamentals, and Ginobili has a lot more of an outside game than Parker. I still think Tony is dealing with injuries, but I can't imagine someone is surprised timmy can play for longer than the other two.
Dude, Parker is not done. He has a sore Achilles. Too many uninformed people have no idea how that takes away your speed and lift. Advanced stats showed he was still one of the fastest guards in the NBA. He has been knocking down those mid range jumpers at a high percentage for the last 6 years. He's short on everything bc he has no lift, which is a big indicator of players leaving their shots short. It was just an injury he's tried to play through bc his team needs him. Unfortunately, the injury zapped him this year just like other years where Manu had those injuries and everyone said he was done, and then he healed and had rebound years. At 38, Manu is done being an elite player, though he can still be a useful one in limited minutes. Parker will have another two or three years at a high level if he can get healthy.
Dude, Parker is not done. He has a sore Achilles. Too many uninformed people have no idea how that takes away your speed and lift. Advanced stats showed he was still one of the fastest guards in the NBA. He has been knocking down those mid range jumpers at a high percentage for the last 6 years. He's short on everything bc he has no lift, which is a big indicator of players leaving their shots short. It was just an injury he's tried to play through bc his team needs him. Unfortunately, the injury zapped him this year just like other years where Manu had those injuries and everyone said he was done, and then he healed and had rebound years. At 38, Manu is done being an elite player, though he can still be a useful one in limited minutes. Parker will have another two or three years at a high level if he can get healthy.
You think 40 year old Duncan isn't sore all over? Enrique isn't dealing with anything that other players in their mid 30s and over aren't. He just doesn't have anything to fall back on since he was always just a speed reliant, scoring PG.
Exaggerating the severity is just to save face. He's never been able to man up to bad performances in the playoffs without throwing out the injury excuse.
Mikeanaro
05-02-2015, 03:15 PM
Is not that amazing considering Manu is almost the same age than Tim and SG run a lot more than bigs.
Parker is 32 so it applies to him.
You think 40 year old Duncan isn't sore all over? Enrique isn't dealing with anything that other players in their mid 30s and over aren't. He just doesn't have anything to fall back on since he was always just a speed reliant, scoring PG.
Exaggerating the severity is just to save face. He's never been able to man up to bad performances in the playoffs without throwing out the injury excuse.
Not even close. A sore Achilles is not just bumps and bruises. When Tim had plantar faciitis several years ago, he looked bad. Not all ailments are equal. Added to all that is that the bigs in the NBA mostly suck such that a highly skilled big man with one bad knee can still dominate the raw bigs of today. If 39 year old Duncan was playing a 25 year old Shaq, Robinson, or Hakeen, he'd get his butt kicked. Point guard is the deepest pool of talent in the NBA and significant injuries like an Achilles is a serious disadvantage. The best player on the Clips is Paul, he'd be a handful if Parker was 100%. The fact he is injured only makes a tough task impossible.
littlecoyotecoin
05-02-2015, 03:59 PM
Considering the style of play and the amount of summer play that Parker and Manu have done, it's as unsurprising as is theoretically possible to be
Yes.
Add to that:
1) Ginobili is almost the same age, so that's not surprising that they're both winding down near the same time.
2) Big men can be tall when they're old. Guys that rely on their speed/quickness have a much more difficult time. I am the same height I was when I was 20, but I am fraction of my quickness. Another thing that is not surprising at all.
3) They both spent a lot of their time driving into a lane occupied by guys much bigger than themselves. They were not, primarily, jumpshooters. They hit the ground a lot. They sacrificed their bodies for years. Not that Duncan didn't, but in a different manner. It is no surprise to see it take a toll, at any given time.
Parker is what, 32? He is a little younger than Duncan/Manu, but he's not exactly a spring chicken. I would say that the only thing surprising is seeing Tony dwindle after such an MVP attention-getting year just two years ago, but, again, injuries can take their toll at any moment, so it still doesn't surprise me.
Parker has suffered hamstring issues, achilles issues, ankle issues, and back issues all within the last 30 days. Some of these have lingered all year, and are recurring from last year. I think he's a bad team-mate and human being for the Erin Barry fiasco, but he's given us a hell of an effort in the realm of basketball.
Have we had a better point guard in the last 40 years? I don't believe so.
superjames1992
05-02-2015, 04:01 PM
Manu's longevity is actually more surprising than Duncan's. Duncan plays a game that easily translates to older age whereas Manu had to make a transition. In addition, PFs usually age better than SGs due to the nature of the position.
Tony's apparent decline is concerning, though it could just be an anomaly this season. His game has always struck me as not translating well to older age, though. A let of guys do wear out in the early 30s, so it really wouldn't be surprising, though. He's been in the NBA since he was 19, right?
itzsoweezee
05-02-2015, 04:14 PM
Manu and Tony both have to rely on their athleticism. The fact that Manu has made it this long is amazing
Not even close. A sore Achilles is not just bumps and bruises. When Tim had plantar faciitis several years ago, he looked bad. Not all ailments are equal. Added to all that is that the bigs in the NBA mostly suck such that a highly skilled big man with one bad knee can still dominate the raw bigs of today. If 39 year old Duncan was playing a 25 year old Shaq, Robinson, or Hakeen, he'd get his butt kicked. Point guard is the deepest pool of talent in the NBA and significant injuries like an Achilles is a serious disadvantage. The best player on the Clips is Paul, he'd be a handful if Parker was 100%. The fact he is injured only makes a tough task impossible.
Exactly. SORE achilles. Just bc an achilles tear is severe doesn't make his soreness more than what it is. I'm sure Duncan suffers from sore knees, doesn't mean I'm going to exxagerate the severity and equate it to ACL injuries.
N0 LyF3 ScRuB
05-02-2015, 04:20 PM
Prime Manu was more than good enough to be a #2. Enrique was easily replaceable, never that great to begin with.
C'mon now... TP was a Leonard free throw choke away from taking home that finals MVP in 2013.. the dude was sensational... and was a top MVP pick by the media..
Arcadian
05-02-2015, 04:20 PM
I'm glad Duncan never played with another top 10 player, because it forces people to acknowledge his greatness. It's precisely because he never did that people realize his greatness. If he had played with a Kobe or Tmac, people would point to that and say he had massive help.
C'mon now... TP was a Leonard free throw choke away from taking home that finals MVP in 2013.. the dude was sensational... and was a top MVP pick by the media..
That's the only year he was great. If he had been that good for more years he would have my respect. Even then, he faltered when being guarded by LeBron (no shame in that though) and that was around the time when the system had evolved to help shoulder the load. Prime Timmy and prime Manu never had such a sophisticated system, it was their individual greatness that got us the mid 00s titles.
littlecoyotecoin
05-02-2015, 04:40 PM
I'm glad Duncan never played with another top 10 player, because it forces people to acknowledge his greatness. It's precisely because he never did that people realize his greatness. If he had played with a Kobe or Tmac, people would point to that and say he had massive help.
He did play w/ TMac, well, they were on the same team, anyway, L O L. Sure did root for him to make a basket.
superjames1992
05-02-2015, 05:14 PM
C'mon now... TP was a Leonard free throw choke away from taking home that finals MVP in 2013.. the dude was sensational... and was a top MVP pick by the media..
Contrary to popular belief, it seems, Tony Parker was terrible in the 2013 Finals. Yes, he had a good playoffs overall, but his defense was terrible and his offense was very inefficient in the 2013 NBA Finals versus Miami. Let's take a look at the stats.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html
First of all, we see 15.7 PPG, which isn't bad, but not spectacular. Duncan was the leading scorer for the Spurs in the series. Parker's FG percentage really stands out, though, at an embarrassingly bad 41.2%, which is especially poor for a PG that barely takes threes (he only took 7 of them, making 2). His FG percentage was worst on the team aside from Bonner and Mills (neither of which played very much, particularly Mills). His FT shooting was also surprisingly poor at 72.7%, which was only better than Leonard when you consider players who actually played (Blair and Mills were also worse, but both shot a combined 8 FTs and neither was in the regular rotation). Moving on to advanced stats, his effective FG percentage was even worst comparatively at 42.2%, worst on the team among players in the rotation and worst on the team overall aside from Mills. This is especially startling as his usage rate (25.4%) was highest on the team aside from Blair, who was not in the regular rotation. For comparison among regular rotation players, his eFG% was over three percent worse than the next closest regular rotation player (Splitter at 44.8%) and over seven percent worse than Ginobili (49.2%), who is considered to have had a terrible series. Finally, his offensive rating was 103 while his defensive rating was a 113, worst among rotation players aside from Gary Neal (115) and Boris Diaw (116, though he made up for it with an ORTG of 116). Parker's ORTG-DRTG differential (-10) was worst among rotation players aside from Gary Neal (-15) and Tiago Splitter (-16).
To add fuel to the fire, he shot a combined 10/35 (28.5%) in San Antonio's two chances to close out (games 6 and 7).
In his defense, he was decent distributing the basketball with 6.4 assists per game and an AST/TO ratio of 3.0 (45 assists to 15 turnovers).
Duncan would have, or at least should have, won Finals MVP in 2013, if the Spurs hadn't choked.
Mugen
05-02-2015, 05:22 PM
TP/Manu's decline isn't surprising. Duncan still being one of the best bigs in the league is insane doe.
Manu, Tony, and Pop better wake up every single morning thanking Timmy for the careers they've had tbh.
Exactly. SORE achilles. Just bc an achilles tear is severe doesn't make his soreness more than what it is. I'm sure Duncan suffers from sore knees, doesn't mean I'm going to exxagerate the severity and equate it to ACL injuries.
For anyone that is unbiased, it is easy to see how he started the season well and then significantly declined after the Achilles injury. You don't drop off that fast. It's easily injury related.
That's the only year he was great. If he had been that good for more years he would have my respect. Even then, he faltered when being guarded by LeBron (no shame in that though) and that was around the time when the system had evolved to help shoulder the load. Prime Timmy and prime Manu never had such a sophisticated system, it was their individual greatness that got us the mid 00s titles.
not even close to true. You are rewriting history to fit your bias. Parker has had a great run as one of the best guards in the league. I've never been a big fan, but I'm not so biased I can't acknowledge his greatness.
DAF86
05-02-2015, 05:30 PM
C'mon now... TP was a Leonard free throw choke away from taking home that finals MVP in 2013.. the dude was sensational... and was a top MVP pick by the media..
Tony wasn't winning the 2013 FMVP, tbh.
ElNono
05-02-2015, 05:30 PM
There's nothing weird about "wearing out" at 37 years old, especially for a guard with as many miles as Manu (when you consider he's been a pro since he was 19, plus NT in the summers).
What's really weird is how good Tim is at 39...
Cloud786
05-02-2015, 05:30 PM
C'mon now... TP was a Leonard free throw choke away from taking home that finals MVP in 2013.. the dude was sensational... and was a top MVP pick by the media..
It was revealed that Duncan would have won the Finals MVP if we didn't choke away that game.
dabom
05-02-2015, 05:32 PM
People actually think tony was going to win FMVP in 2013. :lmao
superjames1992
05-02-2015, 05:32 PM
There's nothing weird about "wearing out" at 37 years old, especially for a guard with as many miles as Manu (when you consider he's been a pro since he was 19, plus NT in the summers).
What's really weird is how good Tim is at 39...
Exactly. I never would have predicted Manu would be as productive as he is at this age a decade ago. Pop really did well with managing his (and Duncan's) minutes over the years. That's why I don't hate on Pop for not playing Kawhi 40 MPG.
It was revealed that Duncan would have won the Finals MVP if we didn't choke away that game.
As I showed on the previous page, Parker had no business winning FMVP in that series. Duncan would have been the clear-winner going away.
SnakeBoy
05-02-2015, 05:37 PM
You think 40 year old Duncan isn't sore all over? Enrique isn't dealing with anything that other players in their mid 30s and over aren't. He just doesn't have anything to fall back on since he was always just a speed reliant, scoring PG.
All of the pg's in the league don't have much to fall back on once they lose their step.
$pursDynasty
05-02-2015, 05:38 PM
MVParker and Manu are more than good they are great players, but there is a difference between great (HOF even) and Goats (greatest of all time). Tony and Manu are the former, Timmy is the later there is no shame in that.
ElNono
05-02-2015, 05:41 PM
2013 was Tony's most dominant season, tbh... he was good to very good before, he would get his numbers, but there was always something that would come up (ie: Sefolosha in 2012) that would just put a dent or stop and then we had to look somewhere else.
But in 2013 he was unstoppable, and he was also finally able to pick his spots on when to score and create... the disappointing part is that it lasted so little, tbh...
For anyone that is unbiased, it is easy to see how he started the season well and then significantly declined after the Achilles injury. You don't drop off that fast. It's easily injury related.
That would make sense except he didn't pull the achilles injury excuse until like the last week of the season.
Skull-1
05-02-2015, 06:01 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly_p.html
In 2003 Duncan carried the weakest team ever to a championship over three-peat Lakers, with highest post season win share in the history of the NBA. One of the few lone wolf championships, MVP + FMVP in same season. Sophomore Parker/rookie Ginobili combined for 21 points a game at 40% shooting.
12 years later, Duncan is still averaging 16 points and 11 rebounds with 57% shooting, Parker/Ginobili combine for 16 points a game at . . . 35% shooting.
Honestly Pop/Duncan is so incredibly underrated for doing so much with so little. You just don't build the core of a championship team with 28th and 57th picks. Parker/Ginobili had great years, they are overachievers with huge heart, but they are very very very far from sidekicks of multiple championship teams like Pippen, Kobe, Gasol, Wade/Bosh, etc. As much as Duncan achieved, I wish prime Duncan played with other top 10/20 players of the league. The last time he had that was in 1999 with near-prime David Robinson and they went 15-2 in the post season.
Uh.........how is this amazing?
Tim shuffles along the court. His vertical leap is four inches. Manu and Tony crash to the floor ninety times a game and make hard, full speed cuts to the basket. The latter style tears up knees and ankles.
Anyone with half a brain saw this coming. The only possible debate was which would wear down faster, Manu or Parker.
That would make sense except he didn't pull the achilles injury excuse until like the last week of the season.
No it was intermittent . He tried to rest it midseason and it came back.
No it was intermittent . He tried to rest it midseason and it came back.
Do your research. It wasn't an achilles boo boo he sat out for, it was a mild asscheek strain.
Godbama
05-02-2015, 06:18 PM
I mean, Duncan's accomplishments are undeniably amazing in every aspect, but still it's not too surprising that guards wear out their value faster basketball-wise before big men do. That's how it usually works.
All of the pg's in the league don't have much to fall back on once they lose their step.
How about Nash or Stockton or Kidd? Or even someone like Dre Miller or Billups? If Enrique ever had an ounce of their courtvision or ever developed his 3 PT shot he wouldn't be such a scrub tbh.
cantthinkofanything
05-02-2015, 06:28 PM
Not even close. A sore Achilles is not just bumps and bruises. When Tim had plantar faciitis several years ago, he looked bad. Not all ailments are equal. Added to all that is that the bigs in the NBA mostly suck such that a highly skilled big man with one bad knee can still dominate the raw bigs of today. If 39 year old Duncan was playing a 25 year old Shaq, Robinson, or Hakeen, he'd get his butt kicked. Point guard is the deepest pool of talent in the NBA and significant injuries like an Achilles is a serious disadvantage. The best player on the Clips is Paul, he'd be a handful if Parker was 100%. The fact he is injured only makes a tough task impossible.
We're talking about an 18 foot shot. If he can't adjust to make that, then he's trash. Players have all sorts of aches and pains every night and they compensate for it. It's not a damn hard shot to ask him to make 40% from. He's like 10% or something.
There's nothing weird about "wearing out" at 37 years old, especially for a guard with as many miles as Manu (when you consider he's been a pro since he was 19, plus NT in the summers).
What's really weird is how good Tim is at 39...
Duncan has been good but it's really a combo of things. One, bigs can always play until they are in their late 30s unless they get a career ending injury. Still, most are not as effective as Duncan. Part of that is Duncan's high skill level and part of that is the lack of big man talent in the league. Robinson was in the hey day of the centers. Duncan isn't playing against the Shaqs, Robinsons, Hakeems, or even the Ewings. He's facing bigs that are athletic, but not highly skilled. Now when Duncan dominated as a power forwRd, it was at a time when that was the deepest position in the league, talent-wise. But now, not so much. It's still incredible that he can play at such a high level, but I do think there are various reasons for that.
We're talking about an 18 foot shot. If he can't adjust to make that, then he's trash. Players have all sorts of aches and pains every night and they compensate for it. It's not a damn hard shot to ask him to make 40% from. He's like 10% or something.
You agree that the last couple of years, he could make that shot? And I assume you agree that he played well against Paul two seasons ago? You don't lose a mid range jump shot overnight without something affecting it. If you want to write him off, fine. But I think Parker could regain much of his form with good health. I think he could have another two years at a high level, if healthy. Better hope so, bc he isn't getting traded and we've got no one on the roster that is more than a short term replacement.
SnakeBoy
05-02-2015, 06:43 PM
How about Nash or Stockton or Kidd? Or even someone like Dre Miller or Billups? If Enrique ever had an ounce of their courtvision or ever developed his 3 PT shot he wouldn't be such a scrub tbh.
lol all those names...one ring.
TMTTRIO
05-02-2015, 06:49 PM
The way Manu's played and all the summers he's played I'm amazed he's still playing. I always predicted he would be done at 32-34 at the latest.
cantthinkofanything
05-02-2015, 07:05 PM
You agree that the last couple of years, he could make that shot? And I assume you agree that he played well against Paul two seasons ago? You don't lose a mid range jump shot overnight without something affecting it. If you want to write him off, fine. But I think Parker could regain much of his form with good health. I think he could have another two years at a high level, if healthy. Better hope so, bc he isn't getting traded and we've got no one on the roster that is more than a short term replacement.
I think he is so mentally weak that he can't hit that shot this series. He's in the NBA for Christs sake. If he can't contribute, he needs to pull himself out because Pop damn sure isn't going to do it.
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