Kareem-Abdul-Overrated

[midnightpulp]

I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.

So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?

Let's unpack his achievements.

The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.

Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0 :wow and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.

"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"

As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his title teams. And during his 6th title run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the title, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.

Now, I'm not one to diminish titles, but Kareem's first title came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A title the very next season and 3 more to follow.

So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.

Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.

[m>s]

You lower Kareem which is fine but it's kind of funny you replace him with another one who is overrated in Magic Johnson

[DMC]

You're not that great if you don't repeat. He never repeated in his prime, needed Magic to come do it for him a year before he retired.

[Killakobe81]

You lower Kareem which is fine but it's kind of funny you replace him with another one who is overrated in Magic Johnson

Hush, now.

[m>s]

Realistically speaking prime Hakeem is number 2, but if you weigh heavily on longevity then I dunno. I can't really include guys pre 80s in all time great discussions.

[m>s]

Hush, now.
Magic is like mayweather, blacks nominate him as the representative of all African Americans and overrate him ridiculously.

He couldn't play d and he couldn't shoot or score at an elite level

[DMC]

I recall watching those games when Kareem was the corpse out there on the floor. You were like "fucking retire already". That slow ass sky hook, watching them pound it in low to him and all that sloppy shit they did back then, it was painful to watch. It's like watching Moses Malone or Bill Cartwright with the ball... boring as fuck.

[AlexJones]

:lmao needed a skyhook to take advantage of 6'9 white stiffs

[Killakobe81]

I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.

So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?

Let's unpack his achievements.

The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.

Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0 :wow and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.

"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"

As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his title teams. And during his 6th title run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the title, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.

Now, I'm not one to diminish titles, but Kareem's first title came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A title the very next season and 3 more to follow.

So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.

Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.

got some extra times on your hand Mid, but you choose to spend it on this bullshit? I missed Kareem's prime. So I don't have issues with your premise but any judgment of Kareem by dudes under say 45 is a waste of effort and words tbh ...
f

[m>s]

^anyone can look at the advanced metrics, numbers don't lie. Of course Kobe fan doesn't want to talk about efficiency and numbers.

[midnightpulp]

You lower Kareem which is fine but it's kind of funny you replace him with another one who is overrated in Magic Johnson

I don't think Magic is overrated. He averaged 15, 7, and 6 on 46% shooting during the 96 season after a 4 year layoff. He was 36, HIV infected, with bad wheels, and still put up pretty strong numbers in a defensive oriented era. I think a prime Magic would have no problem being an absolute beast today, especially in this new space-and-pace era.

[m>s]

^but now you're speculating. "Would be," "if we put him in a different era," etc none of those count. All we can look at is what actually happened. I though tim Thomas was going to be a perrinneal all star once upon a time. He wasn't motivated and it didn't happen.

[midnightpulp]

got some extra times on your hand Mid, but you choose to spend it on this bullshit? I missed Kareem's prime. So I don't have issues with your premise but any judgment of Kareem by dudes under say 45 is a waste of effort and words tbh ...
f

How is this "bullshit?"

We should just take a bunch of old fogey's word for it? Besides, it's not like I'm shitting on Kareem. I still have him 4th, and have actually seen him lower on various other lists, but we shouldn't just automatically grant him top 2 status because he scored a bunch of points and won 5 rings with one of the most stacked teams in NBA history.

[m>s]

And Duncan at 38 is more impressive than magic at 36. I'm not really sure how 15 and 7 off subpar shooting and defense is supposed to add strength to your argument.

[100%duncan]

:tu

[Koolaid_Man]

Its gonna be ok mid...l know you going through some shit..if I introduce you to Galaxia would that help?

Q_VZdQ92pQc

[midnightpulp]

And Duncan at 38 is more impressive than magic at 36. I'm not really sure how 15 and 7 off subpar shooting and defense is supposed to add strength to your argument.

It is, but that doesn't discount Magic's "accomplishments" during that season. He also wasn't subpar defensively, and was actually a net positive defensive player. And a lot of teams would love to have 15, 7, 6 from the power forward position (which Magic played that year, since he didn't have the stamina to run point) in today's league. That said, neither of us have any concrete evidence of how Magic would perform today, so we're both speculating.

[Koolaid_Man]

It is, but that doesn't discount Magic's "accomplishments" during that season. He also wasn't subpar defensively, and was actually a net positive defensive player. And a lot of teams would love to have 15, 7, 6 from the power forward position (which Magic played that year, since he didn't have the stamina to run point) in today's league. That said, neither of us have any concrete evidence of how Magic would perform today, so we're both speculating.

It's gonna be ok Mid....you got spanked by our retarded brother

[Killakobe81]

How is this "bullshit?"

We should just take a bunch of old fogey's word for it? Besides, it's not like I'm shitting on Kareem. I still have him 4th, and have actually seen him lower on various other lists, but we shouldn't just automatically grant him top 2 status because he scored a bunch of points and won 5 rings with one of the most stacked teams in NBA history.

Not saying that but I always prefer when people say Jordan was the best player I ever saw versus just saying he is the GOAT. But either way I dont have a issue With Kareem at 4th heck even if some say Duncan is better than Kareem because by the time I saw KAJ he was still good even great but I never saw him at his best.

As for just looking at stats even advanced metrics is just as shitty as eye-test alone ... any good evaluator would use both to make a real evaluation of great players.

[100%duncan]

Not saying that but I always prefer when people say Jordan was the best player I ever saw versus just saying he is the GOAT. But either way I dont have a issue With Kareem at 4th heck even if some say Duncan is better than Kareem because by the time I saw KAJ he was still good even great but I never saw him at his best.

As for just looking at stats even advanced metrics is just as shitty as eye-test alone ... any good evaluator would use both to make a real evaluation of great players.

Doesnt Eye-test and both raw and advanced stats show that TD is a greater player at this age than Kareem? Obviously I wasnt alive yet during his time...

[LkrFan]

:rollin

[Killakobe81]

Doesnt Eye-test and both raw and advanced stats show that TD is a greater player at this age than Kareem? Obviously I wasnt alive yet during his time...

I dont know. Based on Kareem at his absolute peak (via NBA greatest games) I would argue Kareem is better. But honestly I dont care all that much. I do know Tim played better at age 39 then Kareem no arguments here. But at his best I think Kareem was better.

[100%duncan]

I dont know. Based on Kareem at his absolute peak (via NBA greatest games) I would argue Kareem is better. But honestly I dont care all that much. I do know Tim played better at age 39 then Kareem no arguments here. But at his best I think Kareem was better.

When exactly? Mid already exposed his first years were in possibly the worst eras in ball and he never got another until Magic held his hands.

[midnightpulp]

Doesnt Eye-test and both raw and advanced stats show that TD is a greater player at this age than Kareem? Obviously I wasnt alive yet during his time...

Duncan, as great as his metrics are, is even a better eye-test player. He's one of the best pick setters of all-time, outlet passers of all-time, and shot alterers of all-time, things that don't show up in the box.

Kobe always failed my eye-test (per his status as "Jordan's heir" and all that bullshit), even before the age of advanced metrics, which just confirmed what I saw.

[100%duncan]

Duncan, as great as his metrics are, is even a better eye-test player. He's one of the best pick setters of all-time, outlet passers of all-time, and shot alterers of all-time, things that don't show up in the box.

Kobe always failed my eye-test (per his status as "Jordan's heir" and all that bullshit), even before the age of advanced metrics, which just confirmed what I saw.

That and the records that Tim holds both in regular season and especially, in the playoffs which is of course more special.

[TDMVPDPOY]

im surprise kareem wasnt more dominant during his era against midgets...

[lefty]

You're not that great if you don't repeat. He never repeated in his prime, needed Magic to come do it for him a year before he retired.
So Duncan isnt that great?

[lefty]

:lmao needed a skyhook to take advantage of 6'9 white stiffs
Damn here we go again :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.

So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?

Let's unpack his achievements.

The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.

Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0 :wow and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.

"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"

As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his title teams. And during his 6th title run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the title, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.

Now, I'm not one to diminish titles, but Kareem's first title came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A title the very next season and 3 more to follow.

So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.

Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.

Have you seen him play?

[midnightpulp]

So Duncan isnt that great?

He was being facetious. The silly repeat argument Lakerfan invented applies to Kareem. He never repeated in his prime and was a shitty role player with a negative impact on his team when he finally did repeat.

So if they're gonna knock Duncan for not repeating, it's only fair to knock Kareem.

[midnightpulp]

Have you seen him play?

Saw him play post prime. But the fact he didn't win shit during his peak tells me all I need to know. It took Magic rebuilding the team around himself to win Kareem any titles after he snuck one against a 42 win team in '71.

Spin this one for me, Luva.

[Buddy Mignon]

im surprise kareem wasnt more dominant during his era against midgets...

Most points scored. He didnt lose a fucking game in college. Thats 3 NCAA titles... to Jims 0. If they didnt red shirt freshmans back then it would have been 4. He has the most recognized signature move of any athlete in any sport.

Oh... and in his spare time he enjoyed smoking weed and making classic movies. What's Jim done?

[midnightpulp]

Most points scored. He didnt lose a fucking game in college. Thats 3 NCAA titles... to Jims 0. If they didnt red shirt freshmans back then it would have been 4. He has the most recognized signature move of any athlete in any sport.

Oh... and in his spare time he enjoyed smoking weed and making classic movies. What's Jim done?

NCAA titles :lol

Joakin Noah and career loser Carmelo have 3 between them.

Let's just stick to the Big Boy league, shall we?

[Pelicans78]

:lmao needed a skyhook to take advantage of 6'9 white stiffs

No one could block it. Not even Wilt.

[Pelicans78]

Saw him play post prime. But the fact he didn't win shit during his peak tells me all I need to know. It took Magic rebuilding the team around himself to win Kareem any titles after he snuck one against a 42 win team in '71.

Spin this one for me, Luva.

He was the Lakers best player on the 79 team that won it all though Magic dominated in Game 6 to win it all.

[Pelicans78]

Magic never rang without Kareem either.

[Magic's T-Cells]

Oh boy. Spurritos will have a lot of time now to create some burrito threads now that their team is out of the playoffs.

:lol Kareem Abdul Overrated

Please.

[Buddy Mignon]

Saw him play post prime. But the fact he didn't win shit during his peak tells me all I need to know. It took Magic rebuilding the team around himself to win Kareem any titles after he snuck one against a 42 win team in '71.

Spin this one for me, Luva.

Jim won his first one in a lockout season against a NY team with no Ewing. Kareem won four titles during his peak. The last two he was carried by Magic and Worthy. I'd like to add that while Jim is getting booted out of the playoffs by players like Deandre Jordan late in his career... Kareem was facing legit centers. Gilmore, Hakeem, Sampson, Parish, Moses, Sikma.

Kareem's competition makes Jims look like shit.

[lefty]

No one could block it. Not even Wilt.

Hakeem did

[midnightpulp]

Magic never rang without Kareem either.

I don't get his argument. (Keep in mind, I am not shitting on Kareem, but just knocking him down two spots.)

Kareem was terrible during the 88' Finals run, posting a net negative +/- and mediocre "raw" stats. Dumbasses like Luva will reduce it down to one play (Kareem drawing the bullshit foul on Laimbeer and then making two FTs, which saved the Lakers title hopes), but Kareem did pretty much fuck all the entire playoffs, riding the backs of Magic, Worthy, and Scott.

Then after Kareem retired, it took Magic only a year to get back to the Finals. People have elevated that first Bulls team to Godlike status, but if Worthy was healthy, that could've been a different series, at the very least it goes more than 5 games, and that Bulls team was better than either the 87 Celtics or 88 Pistons.

Magic then fuck a dude in the ass and has to retire, so we never know what could've been.

[Buddy Mignon]

Magic never rang without Kareem either.

Of course he did... he closed out Phili on the road while Capt when getting dome at the playboy mansion.

[Killakobe81]

He was being facetious. The silly repeat argument Lakerfan invented applies to Kareem. He never repeated in his prime and was a shitty role player with a negative impact on his team when he finally did repeat.

So if they're gonna knock Duncan for not repeating, it's only fair to knock Kareem.

The real crux of the matter ...thanks!

[Buddy Mignon]

I don't get his argument. (Keep in mind, I am not shitting on Kareem, but just knocking him down two spots.)

Kareem was terrible during the 88' Finals run, posting a net negative +/- and mediocre "raw" stats. Dumbasses like Luva will reduce it down to one play (Kareem drawing the bullshit foul on Laimbeer and then making two FTs, which saved the Lakers title hopes), but Kareem did pretty much fuck all the entire playoffs, riding the backs of Magic, Worthy, and Scott.

Then after Kareem retired, it took Magic only a year to get back to the Finals. People have elevated that first Bulls team to Godlike status, but if Worthy was healthy, that could've been a different series, at the very least it goes more than 5 games, and that Bulls team was better than either the 87 Celtics or 88 Pistons.

Magic then fuck a dude in the ass and has to retire, so we never know what could've been.


To knock Karriem down 2 spots would mean knocking Jim down 2 spots. Go ahead.

[Pelicans78]

Those Laker teams in the mid to late 70s were trash outside of Kareem. They weren't gonna ring with Duncan, MJ, Lebron, etc. The 2nd best player was usually a young Adrian Dantley or Norm Nixon and not much else on those teams.

[midnightpulp]

Jim won his first one in a lockout season against a NY team with no Ewing. Kareem won four titles during his peak. The last two he was carried by Magic and Worthy. I'd like to add that while Jim is getting booted out of the playoffs by players like Deandre Jordan late in his career... Kareem was facing legit centers. Gilmore, Hakeem, Sampson, Parish, Moses, Sikma.

Kareem's competition makes Jims look like shit.

And legit centers like Dave Cowens (6'9") who outplayed him in '74 :lmao

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Dave_Cowens.jpeg

Peak Shaq was far better than any of those centers. Jack Sikma :lol, :lol Ralph Sampson, who was basically a black Yao Ming. Robert Parish :lol.

Kevin Garnett, a far better defender than any of them save Hakeem. Dirk? A matchup nightmare and better offensive player than any of them except for, again, Hakeem.

[Pelicans78]

I don't get his argument. (Keep in mind, I am not shitting on Kareem, but just knocking him down two spots.)

Kareem was terrible during the 88' Finals run, posting a net negative +/- and mediocre "raw" stats. Dumbasses like Luva will reduce it down to one play (Kareem drawing the bullshit foul on Laimbeer and then making two FTs, which saved the Lakers title hopes), but Kareem did pretty much fuck all the entire playoffs, riding the backs of Magic, Worthy, and Scott.

Then after Kareem retired, it took Magic only a year to get back to the Finals. People have elevated that first Bulls team to Godlike status, but if Worthy was healthy, that could've been a different series, at the very least it goes more than 5 games, and that Bulls team was better than either the 87 Celtics or 88 Pistons.

Magic then fuck a dude in the ass and has to retire, so we never know what could've been.

Kareem was 40 at the time of those Finals.

But those Lakers teams in Kareem's prime weren't very good. So I don't blame him for those teams not winning it all.

[Pelicans78]

And legit centers like Dave Cowens (6'9") who outplayed him in '71 :lmao

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Dave_Cowens.jpeg

Peak Shaq was far better than any of those centers. Jack Sikma :lol, :lol Ralph Sampson, who was basically a black Yao Ming. Robert Parish :lol.

Kevin Garnett, a far better defender than any of them save Hakeem. Dirk? A matchup nightmare and better offensive player than any of them except for, again, Hakeem.

But KG and Dirk could never guard the big 7 footers. KG reduced himself to playing PF cause he was too skinny to play the 5.

[midnightpulp]

To knock Karriem down 2 spots would mean knocking Jim down 2 spots. Go ahead.

How does that make a lick of sense?

4th all time ain't nothing to sniff at. But yeah, I'm hunting bigger game now since Kirbs was like the worst starter in the NBA this year and will end his career in the lottery. Duncan vs. Kobe is done.

I'm after the ten point bucks now, and I think I hit it (Kareem) right through the heart. The "2nd Greatest Player of All Time" should win more than 2 Finals MVPS in 8 (or is it 9) Finals appearances. And he shouldn't be getting dominated by Dave Cowens :lol

[midnightpulp]

But KG and Dirk could never guard the big 7 footers. KG reduced himself to playing PF cause he was too skinny to play the 5.

Duncan isn't that huge (compared to traditional centers), and was always KG's assignment.

And I was speaking about Dirk's offensive game, which would give Duncan fits when he guarded him. Meanwhile, Kareem is taking it easy against the likes of Jack Sikma and Robert Parish.

[midnightpulp]

Game 7, at home, all on the line, you're the MVP and the best player in the world at your absolute peak.

And you get outplayed by Dave Cowens.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197405120MIL.html

"Kareem played against real centers."

:lmao

[Koolaid_Man]

I'm not trying to dick ride Luva but gotdam he's owning midnight pulp with real facts...mid is essentially spinning out of control....Mid if I were you I wouldnt challe n g Luva..dude kicking your ass for real

[JohnnyMax]

#7) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Weaknesses: Kareem had to have a dominating point guard in order to succeed. In Milwaukee, he had Oscar Robertson. when Robertson retired, they went from the NBA finals to a losing record (1974-75). The next year, Jabbar went to L.A, where he posted another losing record, playing with hall of fame guard Gail Goodrich (1975-76). His Lakers underachieved, even though he played with Norm Nixon, until Magic Johnson joined the team and made them great (1979-80). Jabbar was a major player on those teams, but without Magic, they aren't a contender. That is the biggest reason he is #7. If you draw names from a hat, what are the chances of getting Oscar or Magic? Anything less and Kareem's team will struggle. Furthermore, he was an underachieving rebounder when compared to guys like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Nate Thurmond. Wilt led the league in rebounding at the age of 36. Kareem wasn't even the best on his own team at that age, averaging less than 8 per game.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm

http://oi64.tinypic.com/ae8z2r.jpg

[Koolaid_Man]

Mid is upset the Spurs were kicked out like dirty dogs

[AlexJones]

:lol Magic Johnson needing advantages of about 7 inches, 30 pounds, and being Black to take advantage of the white PGs in that era

[100%duncan]

:lol Magic Johnson needing advantages of about 7 inches, 30 pounds, and being Black to take advantage of the white PGs in that era

Alex

[lefty]

:lol Magic Johnson needing advantages of about 7 inches, 30 pounds, and being Black to take advantage of the white PGs in that era

:lmap tbh Isiah was better

[AlexJones]

:lol 80's NBA to today's NBA is like AAA baseball to MLB, or the fucking Coca Cola league 1 to the EPL

[midnightpulp]

#7) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm)

Weaknesses: Kareem had to have a dominating point guard in order to succeed. In Milwaukee, he had Oscar Robertson. when Robertson retired, they went from the NBA finals to a losing record. The next year, Jabbar went to L.A, where he posted another losing record, playing with hall of fame guard Gail Goodrich. His Lakers underachieved, even though he played with Norm Nixon, until Magic Johnson joined the team and made them great. Jabbar was a major player on those teams, but without Magic, they aren't a contender. That is the biggest reason he is #7. If you draw names from a hat, what are the chances of getting Oscar or Magic? Anything less and Kareem's team will struggle. Furthermore, he was an underachieving rebounder when compared to guys like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Nate Thurmond. Wilt led the league in rebounding at the age of 36. Kareem wasn't even the best on his own team at that age, averaging less than 8 per game.

:lol

And 5 per in 88. Unacceptable for a big.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol 80's NBA to today's NBA is like AAA baseball to MLB, or the fucking Coca Cola league 1 to the EPL
What's sad is that the product somehow got even WORSE in the '90s and early 2000s :lol

[AlexJones]

What's sad is that the product somehow got even WORSE in the '90s and early 2000s :lol

:lol they replaced stiff whites with dumb ass niggas that couldn't shoot nor pass.

[DMC]

So Duncan isnt that great?
Not my argument. Try to keep up Lefty.

[Galileo]

I always thought Artis Gilmore was just as good as Jabbar.

[lefty]

Not my argument. Try to keep up Lefty.
As an apology
http://wallpapers.wallhaven.cc/wallpapers/full/wallhaven-193203.jpg

[LkrFan]

:lol

And 5 per in 88. Unacceptable for a big.

He never shot 39.6% :lol

[100%duncan]

He never shot 39.6% :lol

or 6/24 in a game 7

[lefty]

or 6/24 in a game 7

http://replygif.net/i/423.gif

[da_suns_fan]

Game 7, at home, all on the line, you're the MVP and the best player in the world at your absolute peak.

And you get outplayed by Dave Cowens.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197405120MIL.html

"Kareem played against real centers."

:lmao

Are you speaking of Duncan in 2006 against the Mavs? :lol

Game. Set. Match.

[LkrFan]

or 6/24 in a game 7...didn't that performance (+ 15 rebounds) lead to a repeat? :)

[100%duncan]

...didn't that performance (+ 15 rebounds) lead to a repeat? :)

Yup. Thank god for MVPau and Ronnie.

[LkrFan]

As an apology
http://wallpapers.wallhaven.cc/wallpapers/full/wallhaven-193203.jpgToo much BMI for my man Splits

[DMC]

Are you speaking of Duncan in 2006 against the Mavs? :lol

Game. Set. Match.

We cannot even argue about your rings for some reason.

[100%duncan]

Are you speaking of Duncan in 2006 against the Mavs? :lol

Game. Set. Match.

comparing dave cowens to Dirk Nowitzki :lmao



Oh you also said Dudley was better than Carmelo.

[LkrFan]

Yup. Thank god for MVPau and Ronnie.

MVPAU = 0-16 without Kobe holding his hand. Why you keep doing this to yourself? Before Kobe, he was an afterthought. Now he's "MVPAU" :lol

[100%duncan]

Laker fans giving us shit, I expected this and all in good fun.

I also expected Mavs fan.


But a Suns fan talking shit about championships :lmao :lmao

[100%duncan]

MVPAU = 0-16 without Kobe holding his hand. Why you keep doing this yo yourself? Before Kobe, he was an afterthought. Now he's "MVPAU" :lol

Before MVPau, Kobe was shining shoes, in the lottery and was super ecstatic to get bumped in the 1st round. Even before that Kobe was Daddy's bitch. Spin this Jaime :downspin:

[da_suns_fan]

comparing dave cowens to Dirk Nowitzki :lmao



Oh you also said Dudley was better than Carmelo.

So it was "okay" for Duncan to lose at home, in his prime, in a game 7, in overtime, to Dirk Nowitzki?

Paper champ.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Mid is contradicting himself hard from my thread about "greats in other eras". It's disappointing... And sheep are following it.

[da_suns_fan]

Laker fans giving us shit, I expected this and all in good fun.

I also expected Mavs fan.


But a Suns fan talking shit about championships :lmao :lmao

Im simply pointing out that the Spurs were never that great and simply waited around for the better teams to get worse or retire.

This is WHY they could never repeat. Paper champions dont beat the truly greats.

[100%duncan]

Beating 3peat champs, defending champs aren't great.


How about getting spanked by the paper champs every time they faced in the playoffs? Was that great? :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Im simply pointing out that the Spurs were never that great and simply waited around for the better teams to get worse or retire.

This is WHY they could never repeat. Paper champions dont beat the truly greats.

what are you talking about retard? The Spurs ENDED the 3 peat Lakers, our grinded one of the best defensive teams of all time, and destroyed another three peat from happening in the most dominant finals of all time.


go to bed.

[100%duncan]

what are you talking about retard? The Spurs ENDED the 3 peat Lakers, our grinded one of the best defensive teams of all time, and destroyed another three peat from happening in the most dominant finals of all time.


go to bed.

Still salty from all those Mays when the Spurs sent their championship-wishing asses home :lmao

[da_suns_fan]

what are you talking about retard? The Spurs ENDED the 3 peat Lakers, our grinded one of the best defensive teams of all time, and destroyed another three peat from happening in the most dominant finals of all time.


go to bed.

Pretty sure age and apathy ended the Lakers' three peat.

Then they retooled and handled the Spurs in six. Duncan was no match for Shaq.

[midnightpulp]

Are you speaking of Duncan in 2006 against the Mavs? :lol

Game. Set. Match.

Duncan was the best player on the floor in that game and certainly didn't get outplayed by Dave Cowens.

[Killakobe81]

I always thought Artis Gilmore was just as good as Jabbar.

Then you dont know shit about hoops ...

[midnightpulp]

Pretty sure age and apathy ended the Lakers' three peat.

Then they retooled and handled the Spurs in six. Duncan was no match for Shaq.

Post their head-to-head playoff stats.

Thanks.

[100%duncan]

Must be hard to be a suns fan. You gotta live vicariously through Lakers' accomplishments and even then, it doesn't make sense nor give you full satisfaction.


Glad I bleed silver and black and not like those faggots in orange :flag:

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Pretty sure age and apathy ended the Lakers' three peat.

Then they retooled and handled the Spurs in six. Duncan was no match for Shaq.
Pretty sure it's past your bed time. There was a time when your best player wasn't Bledsoe, just so you know youngin..

[LkrFan]

I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.

So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?

Let's unpack his achievements.

The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.

Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0 :wow and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.

"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"

As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his title teams. And during his 6th title run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the title, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.

Now, I'm not one to diminish titles, but Kareem's first title came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A title the very next season and 3 more to follow.

So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.

Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.

I'm sorry I caused you to get so mad that you made this thread mid. Please forgive me son. :cry

[midnightpulp]

I'm sorry I caused you to get so mad that you made this thread mid. Please forgive me son. :cry

No. Discussing Kareem in that thread got me thinking about how good he really was. Great player, but 4th all time at best.

[100%duncan]

why are lakerfans so mad? 4th all time is an honor, especially if you didnt win shit in your peak

[midnightpulp]

why are lakerfans so mad? 4th all time is an honor, especially if you didnt win shit in your peak

Has to do with having no future and Kobe's career ending in the lottery.

[Clipper Nation]

Duncan was the best player on the floor in that game and certainly didn't get outplayed by Dave Cowens.
This. In fact, that 2006 Mavs series was almost a mirror image of our series this year. Two of the elite teams in the West matching up due to a quirk in the seeding rules, Duncan dominated, Poop coached an atrocious series, and Enrique went full cancer. Lots of close games. The Mavs handing two games away on incredibly unclutch plays (Stackhouse's three point attempt, Dirk getting swatted by Bowen) and still winning the series, just like us. Dirk and Blake having their breakthrough playoff series.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan was the best player on the floor in that game and certainly didn't get outplayed by Dave Cowens.

Yet he let his team lose.

At home.

In Game 7.

In Overtime.

[LkrFan]

No. Discussing Kareem in that thread got me thinking about how good he really was. Great player, but 4th all time at best.

You reeeeeeeeaching with this thread mid. I'm embarrassed for you son. :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

Hey Mid, I got side tracked to go have a steak, but I'm going to take your logic of using how great Magic was to lower Kareem's value... then switch the names to Kobe and Shaq. When I'm done Kobe might just be #1... using your logic.

[Buddy Mignon]

This. In fact, that 2006 Mavs series was almost a mirror image of our series this year. Two of the elite teams in the West matching up due to a quirk in the seeding rules, Duncan dominated, Poop coached an atrocious series, and Enrique went full cancer. Lots of close games. The Mavs handing two games away on incredibly unclutch plays (Stackhouse's three point attempt, Dirk getting swatted by Bowen) and still winning the series, just like us. Dirk and Blake having their breakthrough playoff series.

Stop it. The Spurs are not elite. Elite teams go beyond the 1st round.

[midnightpulp]

Yet he let his team lose.

At home.

In Game 7.

In Overtime.

Nope. Duncan had 41, 15, 6, and 3 on 601TS%, outscoring Dirk. Dave Cowens outscored Kareem and shot a better percentage.

The Spurs bench had 2 points.

And in any event, Dirk>>>>>>>>>>Dave Cowens.

[midnightpulp]

Stop it. The Spurs are not elite. Elite teams go beyond the 1st round.

Elite franchises also don't miss the playoffs in consecutive years. I thought you fucks didn't rebuild and just reloaded? :lmao

And another lottery season is coming up next year for your boys. Enjoy :toast

[Clipper Nation]

Nope. Duncan had 41, 15, 6, and 3 on 601TS%, outscoring Dirk. Dave Cowens outscored Kareem and shot a better percentage.

The Spurs bench had 2 points.

And in any event, Dirk>>>>>>>>>>Dave Cowens.
That faggot thinks Amar'e > Duncan because Amar'e finally managed to beat one of the shittiest Spurs teams ever in 2010 :lol

[midnightpulp]

That faggot thinks Amar'e > Duncan because Amar'e finally managed to beat one of the shittiest Spurs teams ever in 2010 :lol

:lol Amar'e.
:lol Too stupid of a monkey to not stay on the bench
:lol Never played defense in his life
:lol Useless offensively without Steve Nash setting him up
:lol Suns

[Arcadian]

I'm on board with the OP.

Intuition tells me that 2003 Duncan would outplay 1971 Kareem. Their career achievements are a wash.

[Ashy Larry]

Can't fade Cap. Last time I checked the history books, he was a champion in 87 and 88. That's called a repeat. A repeat in sports is when a team or person win a title in consecutive years. Something Cap did do.

Jim? 99 and 00? No.
03 and 04 ? No.
05 and 06? No.
07 and 08? No.
14 and 15? No.

0-5 Jimbo.

I will say you can take one of Cap's MVPs away. Can't give the MVP award to a dude on a 40-42 squad that misses the playoffs. I will say he was well on his way to the 80s finals MVP before getting hurt in game five.

[Malik Hairston]

:lol 80's NBA to today's NBA is like AAA baseball to MLB, or the fucking Coca Cola league 1 to the EPL

:lol yep..don't know how people can take a basketball league seriously when over 25% of the players in the 80s were White Americans..a bunch of Lou Amundsons..

There's a reason that the percentage of White American basketball players is less than 9% today..

[Killakobe81]

Can't fade Cap. Last time I checked the history books, he was a champion in 87 and 88. That's called a repeat. A repeat in sports is when a team or person win a title in consecutive years. Something Cap did do.

Jim? 99 and 00? No.
03 and 04 ? No.
05 and 06? No.
07 and 08? No.
14 and 15? No.

0-5 Jimbo.

I will say you can take one of Cap's MVPs away. Can't give the MVP award to a dude on a 40-42 squad that misses the playoffs. I will say he was well on his way to the 80s finals MVP before getting hurt in game five.

Tell 'em Ashy ... Im assuming you found some suckas to milk some money from last night? IF I still lived L.A. I would have paid for my summer vacation off the flips I knew back in the day. I saw them on Facebook getting roasted pig, lumpia and Korean BBQ ready for that let down ...

Funny PBF, has virtually no asian fans but plenty of blacks hate Floyd and prefer Manny. I was at a bar in Plano full of them. Crowd was easy 75% blacks (caribbean owned.themed bar) and 75% of the black crowd was rooting Manny plus all the whites were too ...

I know wrong thread and I dont care ...

[MultiTroll]

im surprise kareem wasnt more dominant during his era against midgets...
watch a replay of Dave Cowens working him.

[midnightpulp]

Can't fade Cap. Last time I checked the history books, he was a champion in 87 and 88. That's called a repeat. A repeat in sports is when a team or person win a title in consecutive years. Something Cap did do.

Jim? 99 and 00? No.
03 and 04 ? No.
05 and 06? No.
07 and 08? No.
14 and 15? No.

0-5 Jimbo.

I will say you can take one of Cap's MVPs away. Can't give the MVP award to a dude on a 40-42 squad that misses the playoffs. I will say he was well on his way to the 80s finals MVP before getting hurt in game five.

Last time I checked, a championship, meaning also a repeat, is a team accomplishment, which is why Kareem won a title in '88 despite being one of the worst players on the team.

[HemisfairArena]

Kareem,,,,take him or leave him,,,but Magic is arguably the best ever. When he filled in for Kareem and played center in the playoffs and scored 40,,,,what more do you want?

[Arcadian]

We all know Duncan repeated in 13-14*

*minus faggotry from Pop and Manu

[midnightpulp]

Kareem had a negative floor impact during the '88 playoffs, but yet, that title win is held in high regard as an individual achievement :lmao

http://oi61.tinypic.com/21j6n1j.jpg

[Thebesteva]

OP

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/51ca1256ecad04846400001c-821-482/trading%20places%2016.png

[Clipper Nation]

We all know Duncan repeated in 13-14*

*minus LeBron's historic greatness and Enrique getting outplayed by Mario Chalmers
FIFY

[lefty]

Kareem,,,,take him or leave him,,,but Magic is arguably the best ever. When he filled in for Kareem and played center in the playoffs and scored 40,,,,what more do you want?

He started at Center but didn't play center for most of the game

If he played C for the whole he would have been destroyed

[Venti Quattro]

Magic scored 42 but Wilkes scored 37 in that game himself

[Koolaid_Man]

Why are yall letting Mid troll you...this guy is mad and salty as fuck over the Spurs getting bounced.....he knows Tim Duncans legacy took a hit and so in order to distractand pivot away from that he says let me throw some shit against the wall to see if I can disparage CAP....he knows that I know what hes up to thats why he doesnt really fuck with me...I give him shit that makes him extremely uncomfortable with himself....he has OCD mixed with a Napoleonic syndrome...only a few of us on this board know about it....it was revealed back in 2009 during Kobes back 2 back run....

The summer of 2009 Mid called 911 and had the ambulance come out to his house about 42 times because he thought he was drowning in water while standing on his front porch...this is a result of a severe mental case of OCD....he's since tried to be calmer but now that he realizes again that its over for the Spurs hes starting to act crazy again..I hope this is a crazy as he will get this time....no more 911 calls please...

If disparaging CAP makes you heal Mid..then I fully support the measure...consider Kool your therapist...:hat

[midnightpulp]

Hey Mid, I got side tracked to go have a steak, but I'm going to take your logic of using how great Magic was to lower Kareem's value... then switch the names to Kobe and Shaq. When I'm done Kobe might just be #1... using your logic.

There's no way you can apply it, since Shaq was ALWAYS, by far in some cases, the best statistical player on the team, even when the Lakers didn't win titles. Shaq also won 3 Finals MVP to Kobe's zero.

I'll grant Kareem lead dog status for the 80 title, since he was better than Magic the entirety of the playoffs, but after Westhead was canned, the Lakers became Magic's team, with Magic typically being the roster's best statistical player.

We also can't leave Worthy out of the equation, who was a superstar level player.

[Ashy Larry]

Last time I checked, a championship, meaning also a repeat, is a team accomplishment, which is why Kareem won a title in '88 despite being one of the worst players on the team.


Old and repeated. Once again, something Jim has NEVER done and had five shots to do so. Hell, even Kirby repeated 3 outta five times.

[Ashy Larry]

Tell 'em Ashy ... Im assuming you found some suckas to milk some money from last night? IF I still lived L.A. I would have paid for my summer vacation off the flips I knew back in the day. I saw them on Facebook getting roasted pig, lumpia and Korean BBQ ready for that let down ...

Funny PBF, has virtually no asian fans but plenty of blacks hate Floyd and prefer Manny. I was at a bar in Plano full of them. Crowd was easy 75% blacks (caribbean owned.themed bar) and 75% of the black crowd was rooting Manny plus all the whites were too ...

I know wrong thread and I dont care ...

people mad because Floyd does what Floyd does. And yes, I hit the Asain community pretty hard sir. Enough to purchase my ticket at the forum to see GGG. Paid for by the good folks from Little Saigon and other neighboring communities. Hit my Filipino neighbor hard.

[midnightpulp]

Old and repeated. Once again, something Jim has NEVER done and had five shots to do so. Hell, even Kirby repeated 3 outta five times.

You don't get any extra hardware for a repeat.

Red mindfucked you guys something fierce when he disparaged your titles :lol

[Ashy Larry]

You don't get any extra hardware for a repeat.

Red mindfucked you guys something fierce when he disparaged your titles :lol

and you don't get any hardware for consecutive 50 win seasons. Greatest power forward of all time with stacked squads couldn't do it once. Tsk tsk tsk.

[midnightpulp]

and you don't get any hardware for consecutive 50 win seasons. Greatest power forward of all time with stacked squads couldn't do it once. Tsk tsk tsk.

Neither could Kareem*, Bird, Wilt, West, etc.


*Only lead dog titles count in these debates. You know the rules, Larry.

[midnightpulp]

and you don't get any hardware for consecutive 50 win seasons. Greatest power forward of all time with stacked squads couldn't do it once. Tsk tsk tsk.

Agreed, but this is an important feat precisely because it (50+ plus win season usually means a good seed) allows you a good opportunity to win hardware.

Can't win any hardware from the cellar, where Kirbs and your Lakers are stuck, and will be stuck for the next 3-5 years at least.

[Ashy Larry]

Neither could Kareem*, Bird, Wilt, West, etc.


*Only lead dog titles count in these debates. You know the rules, Larry.

If we're going lead dogs, then he didn't repeat. Jim couldn't repeat being a lead dog or an old dog. Cap at least repeated being an old dog. Cap > Jim

[Ashy Larry]

Agreed, but this is an important feat precisely because it (50+ plus win season usually means a good seed) allows you a good opportunity to win hardware.

Can't win any hardware from the cellar, where Kirbs and your Lakers are stuck, and will be stuck for the next 3-5 years at least.and with all those 50 wins seedlings and great playoff position and stacked squads, how many times did Jimbo repeat?

[benefactor]

:lol Mid working Laker fan on the block

[m>s]

All sorts of faggotry going on in this thread. Kool everything you touch goes to shit I just want you to know you're a joke.

[ambchang]

Not exactly sure why I got called out for being a Kareem fanboi, as I am not really a huge Kareem fan.

In fact, I sort of agree with OP, to a degree.

Kareem was undoubtedly one of the greatest of all time, but he is probably one of the most difficult to gauge of all the all-time greats.

He won championships during the 80s, which was the golden age of the NBA, but only with the help of a loaded Lakers team, and some VERY questionable moves by the NBA (banning pretty much the entire Houston roster, banning Tarpley. Not really a coincidence both teams were the primary adversary of the Lakers in the West, aka, the two major roadblocks stopping the very profitable Lakers-Celtics Finals every year). He was underwhelming in at least one title run (88), mediocre in another 1 (87), and pretty good in the third and fourth one (82 and 85). He was only really all-time great good in one title run, and his team won the championship with a rookie PG in his place. To summarize, he won a lot of titles, but he was clearly NOT in his prime during the 80s.

The time when he was in his prime though, was in the 70s, and the league was horrible. He put up monster stats during this time (traditional and advanced), but really, who was he really playing against? He won one title with the Big-O next to him. I don't really fault him for not winning more titles during this prime, because winning titles was a team accomplishment, but he did manage to miss the playoffs, and from my point of view, an all-time great player can drag his team to the playoffs as long as there is a supporting cast around him and he played enough games.

Third, he was absolutely BULLIED h2h against his best opponents. Moses and Hakeem both took him to the woodshed, and it really wasn't that pretty. Sure Hakeem did it to a way over the hill Kareem, and Kareem scored enough points, but his rebounding and defense just wasn't up to par.

Which brings us to the last point, his defense and rebounding was horrible for an all-time great during the last 5 or so years. Just absolutely horrible.

However, he played 20 years, and his peak was higher than or comparable to anyone's peak (just some questions about his competition though).

[lefty]

Amb going HAM

[Killakobe81]

Amb going HAM

I dont think so. he made some good points for both sides of the argument, tbh. Unless the definition of HAM has changed. Someone going HAM would go hard on one side not both I think his post has stuff Ashy and Mid could use ...

[ambchang]

BTW, I tried for years to rank players, but have pretty much given up as there are just way too many variables.

Bill Simmons introduced a great way though, and that is to put players in groups. You can make a strong case for anyone of the players better than the other players, and no one really has a clear case of better than any other person.

I don't really think Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, people overlook a lot of factors (he can only win with one type of team, Pippen got way less credit than he deserved, the Bulls always had great interior defense, coaching, insane amounts of FTs), and Magic, Kareem, and Bird all have a case at the top. And I know I would be labeled a crazy Duncan fanboi, but Duncan has a case in that as he is really the easiest player to build a championship around (99, 03, 05/07, and 14 titles are at least 4 totally different title teams, and Duncan and right at the centre for all five of them).

Old timers (I agree with a whole bunch of y'alls it difficult to rate old timers, so I am putting them in a separate pile, not necessarily better or worse than any of the tiers):
Russell, Wilt, Oscar

Top tier:
Jordan, Magic, Kareem

Second tier:
Duncan, Bird (I would rank Duncan higher, but Bird's peak was just scary)

Third tier:
Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses

Fourth tier:
Garnett, Dirk, McHale, Barkley, Kobe, Robinson, Stockton, Isiah, West, Dr. J

Fifth tier:
Malone, Ewing, Wade, and probably a whole bunch of guys I am missing.

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

BTW, I tried for years to rank players, but have pretty much given up as there are just way too many variables.

Bill Simmons introduced a great way though, and that is to put players in groups. You can make a strong case for anyone of the players better than the other players, and no one really has a clear case of better than any other person.

I don't really think Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, people overlook a lot of factors (he can only win with one type of team, Pippen got way less credit than he deserved, the Bulls always had great interior defense, coaching, insane amounts of FTs), and Magic, Kareem, and Bird all have a case at the top. And I know I would be labeled a crazy Duncan fanboi, but Duncan has a case in that as he is really the easiest player to build a championship around (99, 03, 05/07, and 14 titles are at least 4 totally different title teams, and Duncan and right at the centre for all five of them).

Old timers (I agree with a whole bunch of y'alls it difficult to rate old timers, so I am putting them in a separate pile, not necessarily better or worse than any of the tiers):
Russell, Wilt, Oscar

Top tier:
Jordan, Magic, Kareem

Second tier:
Duncan, Bird (I would rank Duncan higher, but Bird's peak was just scary)

Third tier:
Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses

Fourth tier:
Garnett, Dirk, McHale, Barkley, Kobe, Robinson, Stockton, Isiah, West, Dr. J

Fifth tier:
Malone, Ewing, Wade, and probably a whole bunch of guys I am missing.

But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan :lmao

[ambchang]

But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan :lmao

Not really, you'd have to put him on a relatively stacked team. You saw how Duncan dragged flawed teams to titles 5 out of his 19 years in this league, never missing the playoffs and only bumped in the first round twice in his career (both times well after his prime). Imagine what he can do with stacked teams with players like Magic, Pippen, Kobe or McHale as his sidekick.

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

Not really, you'd have to put him on a relatively stacked team. You saw how Duncan dragged flawed teams to titles 5 out of his 19 years in this league, never missing the playoffs and only bumped in the first round twice in his career (both times well after his prime). Imagine what he can do with stacked teams with players like Magic, Pippen, Kobe or McHale as his sidekick.
:lmao you don't need to have a stacked team to repeat as champs :lol

Though Duncan had hall of famers and still couldnt repeat. Along with a HOF coach.

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

And no, Duncan was carried 4 out of 5 titles.

[Killakobe81]

I have told Amb his list isnt bad. I think Bird is slightly high and Kobe slightly low but I honestly dont even care anymore. Duncan, Bird, Lebron, over Kobe really it doesnt matter. I just want to keep the pick. At the end of the day does it matter where Kobe ranks on a Spurs board or a Laker one for that matter? Both sites are biased. It's just a format for hoops fans to express themselves. No one is right (though I called durant over ODen) or wrong (well I did argue Dwill over Paul a long time ago) because most things except the extreme cases are subjective even with advanced metrics. some great players are dominate in one category and suck in others. Some have the eye test others not so much.

Amb's list is solid anyone can nit pick a list. I think Amb despite a few flaws (imho) is as good as Simmons or anyone else ...

[Galileo]

Post their head-to-head playoff stats.

Thanks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

[lefty]

Hakeem

The rest is shit

[Buddy Mignon]

But if you want a back to back, don't build around Duncan :lmao

Or Bird.

[ambchang]

:lmao you don't need to have a stacked team to repeat as champs :lol

Though Duncan had hall of famers and still couldnt repeat. Along with a HOF coach.

There are a few teams that had only one (or less) HoF, and none of them repeated.

94 Rockets (only repeated by adding Drexler)
04 Pistons, though Ben Wallace and Billups may make it one day
79 Sonics

And it doesn't really matter how many HoFers are on a team. Kidd was on the 11 Mavs, but he was way over the hill. Similarly, Robinson was way over the hill in 03, and Parker and Ginobili weren't that great that year either. In 14, Duncan was over the hill (though still better than most players), and sometimes, teams, such as the Lakers, would even struggle to make the playoffs with 4 HoFers.

Other than the Rockets, every single team that repeated was stacked to the nose:
60's Celtics - 8 HoFers, don't know how much more stacked you can be
87-88 Lakers - Magic, Kareem (greatly diminished), Worthy, Scott, Cooper
Pistons - Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, one of the best benches the league has ever seen. Not coincidentally, it went into free fall after expansion, because it's bench was affected
Bulls - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Grant
Lakers - Shaq, Kobe
Lakers - MVPau, Kobe, Bynum, Odom (by far the best frontline in the league), 20+ FTs in the 4th quarter in an elimination game + injuries to the Celtics
Heat - Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Allen

[ambchang]

And no, Duncan was carried 4 out of 5 titles.

Pray tell.

[ambchang]

I have told Amb his list isnt bad. I think Bird is slightly high and Kobe slightly low but I honestly dont even care anymore. Duncan, Bird, Lebron, over Kobe really it doesnt matter. I just want to keep the pick. At the end of the day does it matter where Kobe ranks on a Spurs board or a Laker one for that matter? Both sites are biased. It's just a format for hoops fans to express themselves. No one is right (though I called durant over ODen) or wrong (well I did argue Dwill over Paul a long time ago) because most things except the extreme cases are subjective even with advanced metrics. some great players are dominate in one category and suck in others. Some have the eye test others not so much.

Amb's list is solid anyone can nit pick a list. I think Amb despite a few flaws (imho) is as good as Simmons or anyone else ...

Thanks buddy. If only you were a woman.

[Buddy Mignon]

Thanks buddy. If only you were a woman.

Fact remains... Kobe owns Duncan.

[ambchang]

Fact remains... Kobe owns Duncan.

How so? By having less FMVPs, MVPs, ROY? Worse advanced stats? Missing more playoffs? Shooting 37.3%?

[Killakobe81]

Thanks buddy. If only you were a woman.

LOL, it's all good it's a respect thing. We may have had some arguments here and there but I think your takes especially on guys I missed their prime on is valuable if still only a opinion. I just know you hate Kobe ... and call you out for that but it's your right ... just like I hate Dwight or Kevin McHale ... fine players ...still hate 'em.

I just wanted you to admit it .... but I have even given up on that because again in the end it doesnt mattter you know that I know so we can keep it chill.