Stats prove Lebron is the most clutch playoff shooter since the 2000's ...

[Killakobe81]

Stats never lie, right? In the last 5 seconds... game on the line (go-ahead shot) in the 4th or OT ...who do you want to take that shot?

Well look, Kobe is at the bottom of the list but let's take a look at who joins him, shall we?

Top 10

1. The King (just added another)
2. Rashard Lewis (mostly off 2009)
3. Dirk (nuff said)
4. MWP (The last one he hit won a title vs. Celts)
5. Hedu Turkeyglue (ha) again 2009 was kind
6. CP3 (down go the spurs)
7. Dfish (my nicca)
8. Dame Lillard (tlong's boy buried them Rox)
9. JKidd (my other nicca)
10. Boris (the most clutch spur?)

Now the bottom ...

1. Ray Allen (spurs disagree)
2. Shaq ("i make 'em when the count!!!)
3. JET (like Allen and Kobe known as clutch but numbers disagree)
4. Chauncey (Mr. Big shot's clutch reputation is exaggerated as much as Kobe's)
5. Courtney Lee (without his miss we may have struggled vs dwight in 2009)
6. Tony Parker (haters on here gon hate ...)
7. Rip Hamilton (2nd Piston)
8. GINOBILEEE!! (biggest shocker on here for me tbh)
9. Timmy (the greatest player of his generation is just above ...)
10. Kobe (Just like I always said these two are close but Duncan still above him here ...)

Thoughts? To read the article click here (https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-may-be-the-most-clutch-playoff-shooter-of-his-generation/)

And Spur fan dont run from this shit ... Kobe isn't clutch so what does that say about the big 3?

Lakerfan are we ready to accept that Kobe is less clutch than Hedu?

[DMC]

5 = 5

[RD2191]

sure, because his team is almost always down

[Killakobe81]

5 = 5

Huh? So a Kobestan can make that same argument. I admit at first I was being funny but if we take the most clutch moment in a basketball game ... Some of the best players from the best teams with some of the GOAT coaches are at the bottom of the list. Some here argue numbers are more trust worthy than the eye test so ... Shaqobe, the Spurs big 3, Rip and Chauncey are not clutch when it matters most ...fact or fiction? Or do you prefer one of those last 5 minute stats?

either way there is a danger in looking at stats alone ... but many on here do. Others just say kiss the ring phaggot ...

Again, I did not create this article or theory I just posted it. Agree, disagree or do you want to divulge your own clutch criteria?

[Killakobe81]

I know someone will yell ... sample size! And they have a point. But Lebron, Kobe, Manu and Tim all have had at least 8 attempts at this.
Kobe was the worst ...
Duncan and Gino right ahead of him ...
Lebron, by far the best ...

Is he the most clutch player since the 2000's? Heck, since MJ?

[Splits]

Parkers game 1 2013 finals winner doesn't qualify?

[Killakobe81]

Parkers game 1 2013 finals winner doesn't qualify?

Not sure, good question. Was it on the last 5 seconds? IIRC it may have been just outside of that ...and if it is that narrow does even MJ over Russell qualify?

and I think the MWP shot was the PHX putback not the finals shot which I dont think was in the last 5 ...it's a flawed criteria ...but it is what ESPN is rolling with.

[Killakobe81]

BTW clutch Lebron has 16 points 3 boards and a steal in the game right now but a 0 in plus/minus at the end of the first what what a crappy stat ...

Was it Raven who said that it was good individual stat indicator? LOL

[Cry Havoc]

In the last 5 seconds... game on the line (go-ahead shot) in the 4th or OT

That is a fucking terrible definition of clutch. So Robert Horry's Game 5 shot against the Pistons in 2005 wouldn't count. Yeah, that definitely wasn't a clutch shot. :rolleyes

[Killakobe81]

That is a fucking terrible definition of clutch. So Robert Horry's Game 5 shot against the Pistons in 2005 wouldn't count. Yeah, that definitely wasn't a clutch shot. :rolleyes

Talk to Neil Pane

[Killakobe81]

That is a fucking terrible definition of clutch. So Robert Horry's Game 5 shot against the Pistons in 2005 wouldn't count. Yeah, that definitely wasn't a clutch shot. :rolleyes

I do think ties count too ... but don't shoot messenger

[Cry Havoc]

I do think ties count too ... but don't shoot messenger

It splashed with 6 seconds left on the clock. Not running from it, just dismissing the metric used to define the lists.

[Arcadian]

Is this a list of total shots made? Fuck that, let's look at the shooting percentage in those situations. Duncan is toward the top of that list.

[Thread]

Is this a list of total shots made? Fuck that, let's look at the shooting percentage in those situations. Duncan is toward the top of that list.

Shut up. He couldn't even solve a squirt like Battier.

[Splits]

Parkers game 1 2013 finals winner doesn't qualify?

5.2 seconds and the Spurs were already up 2, so it doesn't count :lol

http://i.imgur.com/p8IxmCN.png

Shit criteria, even though I love anything clutch-related where Kirby is dead last

I'd define clutch as last 24 seconds 4th quarter or OT with a 1 possession game, tbh

[Killakobe81]

Is this a list of total shots made? Fuck that, let's look at the shooting percentage in those situations. Duncan is toward the top of that list.

% is factored that is part of why Kobe is so low

[DMC]

When you're talking about 16 years or more in the league and a sample size of 8 attempts over that time, you're cherry picking the fuck out of it. The figures don't lie, but liars figure.

[midnightpulp]

Don't know why KK would expect a post-playing big to have a great <5 seconds shooting percentage at the end of games :lol The end of games are usually guard/wing time, since you don't want to risk turnovers and such trying to feed the post.

The fact that Kirbs lags behind a post-playing big in this category is somewhat pathetic, though.

Better comparison would be the "clutch time stat" (last 5 minutes of the game, no team ahead by more than 5 points).

In the playoffs, Duncan shoots .455 during "clutch time," and this just takes into account his scoring and not all the big defensive plays he's contributed in that regard. Fun fact: Duncan was 6-10 during clutch time during this year's playoffs.

Kobe shoots .399. To be fair, this doesn't take into account Kobe's made FTs during that time from being intentionally fouled, and it's not a terrible percentage for a guard in that situation, as most players, even bigs, see a drop off in shooting % during that period.

[MaNu4Tres]

Lol at "most clutch playoff shooter"

No such thing as clutch.

Its a term idiots use, tbh..

[spurraider21]

Parkers game 1 2013 finals winner doesn't qualify?
the spurs were up when he made that shot, so its not considered a game winner

[AlexJones]

Not a great metric to use imo.. I'd go with something like PER in last 5 minutes for games within a 5 point spread.

[Leetonidas]

Yeah it kinda depends on your interpretation of when clutch time starts and this is just go-ahead or tying baskets with 5 secs or left? No the same imo

<2 minutes in the 4th quarter or in OT, within 6 points (2 possessions) is a better criteria for clutch time imo

[Killakobe81]

Lol at "most clutch playoff shooter"

No such thing as clutch.

Its a term idiots use, tbh..

I actually agree ... Said the same to Amb it's really about coaching then execution ....but ...

If LeBron had shitty coaches and sometimes shitty teams and still leads doesn't that strengthen his GOAT claim? Just asking ....

[Killakobe81]

Don't know why KK would expect a post-playing big to have a great <5 seconds shooting percentage at the end of games :lol The end of games are usually guard/wing time, since you don't want to risk turnovers and such trying to feed the post.

The fact that Kirbs lags behind a post-playing big in this category is somewhat pathetic, though.

Better comparison would be the "clutch time stat" (last 5 minutes of the game, no team ahead by more than 5 points).

In the playoffs, Duncan shoots .455 during "clutch time," and this just takes into account his scoring and not all the big defensive plays he's contributed in that regard. Fun fact: Duncan was 6-10 during clutch time during this year's playoffs.

Kobe shoots .399. To be fair, this doesn't take into account Kobe's made FTs during that time from being intentionally fouled, and it's not a terrible percentage for a guard in that situation, as most players, even bigs, see a drop off in shooting % during that period.

I did noy expecT anything knew Kobe would be low and LeBron high had no idea how the rest would play out. I did not dig for this info it was on the front page of ESPN. I figured hall would enjoy where Kobe and Tony were listed once I saw it but question Gino and Duncan ...

Again not saying I agree with Pane or his criteria just asking questions

[ambchang]

3 issues:
1) This is a horrible definition of clutch. Why 5 seconds? Someone made a shot at 5.1 seconds any less clutch?
2) Why shooting percentage? Rebounds, blocks, steals, defense, passes are all integral parts of end game situations.
3) Extremely small sample size.

That said, Kobe seems to come up bottoms in all types of clutch stats though.

[Killakobe81]

3 issues:
1) This is a horrible definition of clutch. Why 5 seconds? Someone made a shot at 5.1 seconds any less clutch?
2) Why shooting percentage? Rebounds, blocks, steals, defense, passes are all integral parts of end game situations.
3) Extremely small sample size.

That said, Kobe seems to come up bottoms in all types of clutch stats though.

It wasnt just shooting %. I think many of yall didnt read the link. the article uses some advanced metrics tied to expected points and assists are factored in as well, IIRC. Not a metrics nerd I use stats as tool not a bible to quote scripture when losing a argument.

Amb you are a smart cookie with metrics but isnt that what the chart says?

And 5 seconds is arbitrary but I think the reasoning was it focused on game-winners and game tying shots if you start going higher it's not truly a single shot since it will lead to a rebound or inbounds play for the other team ...not a true game winner. But I just report I did not dig deep.

[ambchang]

It wasnt just shooting %. I think many of yall didnt read the link. the article uses some advanced metrics tied to expected points and assists are factored in as well, IIRC. Not a metrics nerd I use stats as tool not a bible to quote scripture when losing a argument.

Amb you are a smart cookie with metrics but isnt that what the chart says?

And 5 seconds is arbitrary but I think the reasoning was it focused on game-winners and game tying shots if you start going higher it's not truly a single shot since it will lead to a rebound or inbounds play for the other team ...not a true game winner. But I just report I did not dig deep.

I flew through it, and it only talks about shots, not assists. Does not take into account other aspects. The title of the chart talked specifically about go-ahead shots, so other aspects are out of the picture.

The numbers only talks about a normalized situation of how a player performed as compared to the rest of the league (unweighted), and then against expectations of how that player would perform.

It's also flawed in the sense that if a player shot 62% from the field but is a poor FT shooter (say James Donaldson or Shaq), said shooter is expected to shoot a high percentage, when the reality is that the player will not get the ball because of his poor ability to shoot FTs, and the only reason said player would get the ball is through a broken play, which significantly decreased the FG% of the player.

[Kidd K]

I don't understand the list. I'm seeing Duncan as a "second to worst" yet he has the same eFG% as the 3rd best guy.

Meanwhile guys with 0% FG% are rated higher, and people with only 1-3 attempts are loading the top of the list.

List is pointless imo except for the players with lots of attempts. I also think the "5 seconds left where game tying shots don't count" aspect of it really pigeon-holes what a "clutch shot" is. I'd like to see that expanded to the final 30-120 seconds of close games (+/- 3 points), to get a more accurate idea.