Tim Duncan defends his title better than Kobe Bryant.

[midnightpulp]

As we all know, titles are team accomplishments, as are the invented accomplishment of a back-to-back. That said, I was wondering who plays better during the playoffs between the the two players with the most rings of their generation when going for a repeat. Not trolling. Nor am I attempting to shit on Kobe. I think their raw stats are very to close to a wash, but Duncan simply has more floor impact defensively with his rebounding, shotblocking, interior presence and much superior +/- stats, not to mention is more clutch. In any event, both players raise their games during a repeat year, which should be commended (Kobe does see a slight drop in RAPM from his playoff average, however).

Tim Duncan

22ppg, 12.4rpg, 3.4apg, 2.0bpg, .518 FG%. +6.4 RAPM, 25.1PER

Clutch stats. (I think these are important to include because they illustrate how a player performs under pressure in the defense of his title). I'm using the accepted, mainstream definition of "clutch" here: Last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or OT, no team ahead by more than 5 points.

35 made shots on .514% shooting.

Kobe Bryant

28.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.9apg, 1.36spg .447 FG%. +3.98 RAPM, 22.6 PER.

Clutch stats.

39 made shots on on .367 shooting. I find Kobe's relatively poor clutch time performance interesting. As if the pressure got to him in these situations, the pressure of defending your team's title. Basketball is indeed a team game, so Kobe's shaky late game play wasn't enough to doom the Lakers.

[Venti Quattro]

One can be rightly called a back to back champion and the other is Tim Duncan

[midnightpulp]

One can be rightly called a back to back champion and the other is Tim Duncan

Since when is basketball an individual sport?

[Thebesteva]

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/51cdaf95ecad04b24b000000-480/tp49.png

http://i.bullfax.com/imgs/682ecbee3644de86f9d5b6ca62d7a363aa19924a.jpg

[Kool Bob Love]

if OP could prove that Shaq and Gasol defended thier title rip Kobe stans.

[Venti Quattro]

Since when is basketball an individual sport?

"Tim Duncan defends HIS title better than Kobe Bryant"

Thanks for setting the precedent.

[Killakobe81]

As we all know, titles are team accomplishments, as are the invented accomplishment of a back-to-back. That said, I was wondering who plays better during the playoffs between the the two players with the most rings of their generation when going for a repeat. Not trolling. Nor am I attempting to shit on Kobe. I think their raw stats are very to close to a wash, but Duncan simply has more floor impact defensively with his rebounding, shotblocking, interior presence and much superior +/- stats, not to mention is more clutch. In any event, both players raise their games during a repeat year, which should be commended (Kobe does see a slight drop in RAPM from his playoff average, however).

Tim Duncan

22ppg, 12.4rpg, 3.4apg, 2.0bpg, .518 FG%. +6.4 RAPM, 25.1PER

Clutch stats. (I think these are important to include because they illustrate how a player performs under pressure in the defense of his title). I'm using the accepted, mainstream definition of "clutch" here: Last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or OT, no team ahead by more than 5 points.

35 made shots on .514% shooting.

Kobe Bryant

28.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.9apg, 1.36spg .447 FG%. +3.98 RAPM, 22.6 PER.

Clutch stats.

39 made shots on on .367 shooting. I find Kobe's relatively poor clutch time performance interesting. As if the pressure got to him in these situations, the pressure of defending your team's title. Basketball is indeed a team game, so Kobe's shaky late game play wasn't enough to doom the Lakers.

Lost me with ... as we all know and the accepted mainstream ...but nice try.

A lot of work to say Duncan has better metrics KOBE some better raw numbers but they still both have 5 rings.

[midnightpulp]

if OP could prove that Shaq and Gasol defended thier title rip Kobe stans.

We know Kobe's impact can't compare with Shaq's, during any title run. As for Gasol, even though he didn't have the sexy PPG, he was more impactful than Kobe during the repeat runs:

Pau's RAPM: 6.3 (2010), 2.8 (2011).

Kobe's RAPM: 5.9 (2010), 1.1 (2011).

[midnightpulp]

"Tim Duncan defends HIS title better than Kobe Bryant"

Thanks for setting the precedent.

Well, it's his along with the other players on his team.

[midnightpulp]

Lost me with ... as we all know and the accepted mainstream ...but nice try.

A lot of work to say Duncan has better metrics KOBE some better raw numbers but they still both have 5 rings.

Every mainstream stats site, from 82games to NBA.com uses the last 5 minutes, no team ahead by more than 5 definition of clutch time. Is it arbitrary? Of course. But I think it's a better representation of player "clutch" (itself, a nonsensical concept, but I'll entertain it) performance than game-winning shots.

[Thread]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th

[Venti Quattro]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th

He hit it first

[Brazil]

Lost me with ... as we all know and the accepted mainstream ...but nice try.

A lot of work to say Duncan has better metrics KOBE some better raw numbers but they still both have 5 rings.

bigs usually have better metrics than guards tbh... which is quite normal once you understand how the so called metrics like PER works, rebounds are for instance heavily represented in there. This is also why comparing guards and bigs is rather dumb

[whitemamba]

OP is high again, defending means winning again..

[Thread]

OP is high again, defending means winning again..

He thought he was gonna repeat. When the roof caved in he went into a state of denial and hasn't emerged yet. He's hurtin', he's wounded. I understand that hurt, that wound, but, not to share it in honest discourse is wrong.

He'll heal...to a point and he'll come around. I know this cat, and he has a good heart. It's just shattered.

Midst

[Clipper Nation]

bigs usually have better metrics than guards tbh... which is quite normal once you understand how the so called metrics like PER works, rebounds are for instance heavily represented in there. This is also why comparing guards and bigs is rather dumb
:lol Brazil with the subtle Enrique semenshielding

[Brazil]

:lol Brazil with the subtle Enrique semenshielding

duh ? on what ?

[Clipper Nation]

duh ? on what ?
:cry "Guards' metrics always look worse!" :cry

[Mitch]

Title defenses

O'Neal: 2-1 as a Laker
Gasol: 1-1

Tim Duncan: 0-5

[Thread]

Title defenses

O'Neal: 2-1 as a Laker
Gasol: 1-1

Tim Duncan: 0-5

And Duncan really porked the pooch on this last defense. Unceremoniously dumped out by the Clippers. I was flabbergasted, pleasantly so, yes, but, absolutely stunned.

That poor SOB.

[Kool Bob Love]

And Duncan really porked the pooch on this last defense. Unceremoniously dumped out by the Clippers. I was flabbergasted, pleasantly so, yes, but, absolutely stunned.

That poor SOB.


Boil it down for me cuddy. Don't feel like it? Fine.

Duncan: 5
O'Neal: 4
Gasol: 2

[Thread]

Boil it down for me cuddy. Don't feel like it? Fine.

Duncan: 5
O'Neal: 4
Gasol: 2

So?

[Brazil]

:cry "Guards' metrics always look worse!" :cry

than bigs it's mainly true, you have obviously exceptions... how this is related to Parker tho ?

[Lakers999]

As we all know, titles are team accomplishments, as are the invented accomplishment of a back-to-back. That said, I was wondering who plays better during the playoffs between the the two players with the most rings of their generation when going for a repeat. Not trolling. Nor am I attempting to shit on Kobe. I think their raw stats are very to close to a wash, but Duncan simply has more floor impact defensively with his rebounding, shotblocking, interior presence and much superior +/- stats, not to mention is more clutch. In any event, both players raise their games during a repeat year, which should be commended (Kobe does see a slight drop in RAPM from his playoff average, however).

Tim Duncan

22ppg, 12.4rpg, 3.4apg, 2.0bpg, .518 FG%. +6.4 RAPM, 25.1PER

Clutch stats. (I think these are important to include because they illustrate how a player performs under pressure in the defense of his title). I'm using the accepted, mainstream definition of "clutch" here: Last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or OT, no team ahead by more than 5 points.

35 made shots on .514% shooting.

Kobe Bryant

28.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.9apg, 1.36spg .447 FG%. +3.98 RAPM, 22.6 PER.

Clutch stats.

39 made shots on on .367 shooting. I find Kobe's relatively poor clutch time performance interesting. As if the pressure got to him in these situations, the pressure of defending your team's title. Basketball is indeed a team game, so Kobe's shaky late game play wasn't enough to doom the Lakers.


I think you made your intentions very clear with that sig

[DMC]

Meh, you can't say "his title" then use the "team sport" card.

[Lakers999]

I think the bottom line when it comes to title defense is that the Kobe defended his MVP and the Lakers title twice and won where Duncan couldn't do it on 5 separate occasions. the funny thing is the lakers beat Duncan's team on 2 of those seasons.

[Thread]

I think the bottom line when it comes to title defense is that the Kobe defended his MVP and the Lakers title twice and won where Duncan couldn't do it on 5 separate occasions. the funny thing is the lakers beat Duncan's team on 2 of those seasons.

......my God, but, it seems like a lifetime ago.

[Killakobe81]

bigs usually have better metrics than guards tbh... which is quite normal once you understand how the so called metrics like PER works, rebounds are for instance heavily represented in there. This is also why comparing guards and bigs is rather dumb

agreed. But I already said Timmy is now greater but some feel the need to to "defend" Timmy not repeating ... 5 is till 5 ...just no repeats.

[DMC]

Ass grabbing and shuck&jive aside, there's no such thing as defending a title when all teams start at zero again. There's is the "repeat" aspect of it and the b2b champion aspect, those are legit. No one ever called Floyd or Ali "back to back champions" or "repeat champions" but they do say "defending his title".

Spurs were the 2014 champions, so to call them defending champs in 2015 is saying they were also the champions in 2015. That would be b2b championship years. They can be the reigning champions, since no one has won one since, but to say "defending champions" is a huge misnomer that fans latch onto as it it's fact.

The fact is the Spurs are, right now, STILL the reigning champions until someone else wins the Finals.

boiled down... 5 is 5.

[Thread]

The fact is the Spurs are, right now, STILL the reigning champions until someone else wins the Finals.

Absolutely. There is no other reading of protocol.

[Brazil]

agreed. But I already said Timmy is now greater but some feel the need to to "defend" Timmy not repeating ... 5 is till 5 ...just no repeats.

I personnally never understood that stuff about repeat... a title is a title repeat or not we agree.

[Thread]

^

[DMC]

I personnally never understood that stuff about repeat... a title is a title repeat or not we agree.

All else being equal, fans regress to whatever they can find to give them some reason to brag about their team over the next. If the Spurs had a 3peat and a b2b as well, it would be about point spread. If the Spurs had that as well, it would be about RS dominance. Make that the same and it's about Tim's finances, ad nauseum etc...

[Brazil]

It's basically like math 1 = 1 even if 1 comes after 1

0+1+0+1+0+1+0+1+0+1 = 5 like 1+1+1+1+1 = 5

now if you want to use criteria to define if a 1 has been harder to conquer than another it's judgemental and opponent's quality, roster strengths.. are much more valuable as juggernaut than the criteria of mine 1 is better because he did not come after a 0 but another 1

[DMC]

It's basically like math 1 = 1 even if 1 comes after 1

0+1+0+1+0+1+0+1+0+1 = 5 like 1+1+1+1+1 = 5

now if you want to use criteria to define if a 1 has been harder to conquer than another it's judgemental and opponent's quality, roster strengths.. are much more valuable as juggernaut than the criteria of mine 1 is better because he did not come after a 0 but another 1

Or forget math, what if we're talking about emus? There's an emu.. he's identical to the other emu except he's standing here and that one is standing there. If that one was here he'd be as good as this one but he's not, so he's not as good. My emu rocks. No I don't personally own this emu, but I've made him my emu because I've decided he's a better emu based on his location. Ok now the other emu has moved over here, he's trying to be as good as my emu but he'll never be that good because he's got a white feather on his tail. What emu puts a white feather on his tail? Ok that emu just beat my emu down. That's because my emu was injured already. That emu has a system and a better farmer raised it, but my emu is a baller so he's still better. Fucking emus.

[Brazil]

Or forget math, what if we're talking about emus? There's an emu.. he's identical to the other emu except he's standing here and that one is standing there. If that one was here he'd be as good as this one but he's not, so he's not as good. My emu rocks. No I don't personally own this emu, but I've made him my emu because I've decided he's a better emu based on his location. Ok now the other emu has moved over here, he's trying to be as good as my emu but he'll never be that good because he's got a white feather on his tail. What emu puts a white feather on his tail? Ok that emu just beat my emu down. That's because my emu was injured already. That emu has a system and a better farmer raised it, but my emu is a baller so he's still better. Fucking emus.

:lol pretty much

The titles of my team are better than the titles of your team because you know I watched every game, I yelled at the referees, I prayed when Duncan went down... I lived the title like it was mine...