Ranking the game's best power forwards

[Manu20]

Ranking the game's best power forwards
Mike Kahn / FOXSports.com
Posted: 30 minutes ago

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/4848202

It was just a few years ago that the NBA's power forward position was one of glamour. Oh sure, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki are still three of the top 10 players in the league. And if Jermaine O'Neal bounces back healthy, he could fit into that category, too.

Is the four spot still the class of the league?

Well, maybe, but it isn't as certain as it was just two years ago.

Chris Webber has gone from All-NBA caliber with the Sacramento Kings to being traded to Philadelphia and still struggling from micro-fracture surgery.

Pau Gasol got a maximum contract and was the centerpiece in Memphis — but it looks as if his game has maxed out long before his contract will reach its apex.

Then again, it wouldn't be a stretch to look at Chris Bosh as a superstar in the making; the Toronto Raptors sure need that to happen. The same can be said for the top two picks in the 2004 draft and their struggling teams — Dwight Howard in Orlando and Charlotte's Emeka Okafor — as their two teams battle to reach a state respectability.

But more than anything else, you look at Duncan, Garnett and Nowitzki and see such an uncommon blend of talent, size and leadership … and it leaves you thinking perhaps the best players in the NBA still play at the big forward and make teams go.

Duncan again led the San Antonio Spurs to the NBA title, despite three ankle sprains that put a damper on a good portion of his regular season performance. Nonetheless, he didn't miss a beat in the playoffs and won his third finals Most Valuable Player award in seven years.

And then there was Garnett. The 2004 MVP had the first knee issues of his career, which didn't even compare to the chemistry issues that saddled the Minnesota Timberwolves as the most disappointing team in the league last season.

That leaves us with Nowitzki, the most incredible shooting 7-footer ever seen. He will enter this season for the first time in his career without either one of his two former partners — Steve Nash enters his second season in Phoenix and Michael Finley is down the road in San Antonio.

All of it makes for interesting fodder as we watch how much the Western Conference will teeter this season based on the performances of these three guys. They aren't the end all, but chances are they will have a major say in who represents the West in the 2006 finals.

Taking it a step further, O'Neal and the Indiana Pacers will have a say in the East, as will Rasheed Wallace and the Detroit Pistons.

Actually, all of these calculations add up to just one thing — the power forwards, generally speaking, still rule the league. There just happens to be a few more players these days who refuse to listen.

1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
Ht./Wt.: 6-11, 260
Numbers: 20.3 pts., 11.1 reb., 2.7 ast.
When he won his third NBA Finals MVP in seven years, Duncan joined Michael Jordan (six), Shaquille O'Neal (three) and Magic Johnson (three) as the only ones to have accomplished the trifecta. And you say Manu Ginobili should have gotten it? Would the Spurs have won without Duncan?

2. Kevin Garnett, Minnesota Timberwolves
Ht.Wt.: 6-11, 230
Numbers: 22.2 pts., 13.5 reb., 5.7 ast.
Two years ago, he won the MVP and the T-Wolves got to the conference finals. Instead of it being a breakout year for the team, it was an aberration — and they're back to being a bunch of ordinary guys around the only player in history to average at least 20.0 points, 10.0 rebounds and 5.0 assists in six consecutive seasons.

3. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
Ht./Wt.: 7-0, 250
Numbers: 26.1 pts., 9.7 reb., 3.1 ast.
He was playing at an extraordinary level through the All-Star break, but his body began to show some wear and tear, and he struggled shooting in the playoffs. He's another incredible talent with size, agility and shooting ability from everywhere. Better passing is the next phase.

4. Jermaine O'Neal, Indiana Pacers
Ht./Wt.: 6-11, 250
Numbers: 24.3 pts., 8.8 reb., 1.9 ast.
He remains right on the cusp of the top three, but injuries and erratic play against the other elite players still keeps him a cut below. Should he stay healthy, play stronger and the Pacers get back into the title chase as expected, maybe he will be included with the rest.

5. Elton Brand, Los Angeles Clippers
Ht./Wt.: 6-8, 270
Numbers: 20.0 pts., 9.5 reb., 2.6 ast.
Were he not playing for the Clippers, everyone would see what a consistently effective player Brand is. His freakish wing-span allows him to block shots; plus, his great hands and instincts have him in the right spot all the time. He doesn't have much range, but he's good enough considering where he is in the offense.

6. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit Pistons
Ht./Wt.: 6-11, 240
Numbers: 14.5 pts., 8.2 reb., 1.8 ast.
On a pure talent and unselfish scale, he's right there with Garnett. But he doesn't have the motivation or mental consistency to play at the same level every game or even throughout the game. But he's a terrific shooter from any angle out to 3-point range, underrated passer and one of the best team defenders of any big man in the game.

7. Chris Bosh, Toronto Raptors
Ht./Wt.: 6-10, 235
Numbers: 16.8 pts, 8.9 reb., 1.9 ast.
Even before the Raptors traded Vince Carter to the Nets, Bosh was clearly the most valuable player on the team. He has great explosiveness to the rim, quickness out on the floor and surprising touch from a variety of angles. And he's still only 21.

8. Chris Webber, Philadelphia 76ers
Ht./Wt.: 6-10, 250
Numbers: 19.5 pts., 9.1 reb., 4.7 ast.
Now we'll find out precisely what Webber has left. He's had another full season to recover from the micro-fracture knee surgery, and he'll have all of training camp to get more accustomed to the Sixers and Allen Iverson. Most of all, he'll have a sincere coach in Mo Cheeks to work with him. Webber's star is flickering, and this is the season it will either rekindle or go dark.

9. Antawn Jamison, Washington Wizards
Ht./Wt.: 6-9, 240
Numbers: 19.6 pts., 7.6 reb., 2.3 ast.
Although Jamison is better suited physically to play small forward, his skills work better from the power forward position. Besides, they traded power forward Kwame Brown, with small forward Caron Butler coming in return. Young Jarvis Hayes is another talented small forward they're developing. So expect bigger numbers from Jamison this season.

10. Zach Randolph, Portland Trail Blazers
Ht./Wt.: 6-9, 255
Numbers: 18.9 pts., 9.6 reb., 1.9 ast.
Zach had a rough season with the turnover on the team, the coaching staff and more serious knee surgery than anyone imagined. But the word is that he's bounced back strong and is likely to get back on the 20/10 track. Keep in mind, he's still only 24, and new coach Nate McMillan will be very adept at creating space and shots for his gifted low-post scorer.

Also given consideration were: Pau Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies; Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Sacramento Kings; Carlos Boozer, Utah Jazz; Emeka Okafor, Charlotte Bobcats; Kenyon Martin, Denver Nuggets; Kurt Thomas, Phoenix Suns; Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic; Troy Murphy, Golden State Warriors; Udonis Haslem, Miami Heat.

Veteran NBA writer Mike Kahn is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com.

[101A]

I know he starts as a center, but leaving Amare completely unmentioned is silly.

[Dex]

I know he starts as a center, but leaving Amare completely unmentioned is silly.

Agreed. Especially since he played at PF before last year, will play at PF again this year with Thomas filling the lane, and only played Center experimentally last season.

[yeahone]

well ithink that it was okk,, to place amare off the list since he did not play in thay position last year.

[Marklar MM]

I know he starts as a center, but leaving Amare completely unmentioned is silly.

Big Ben is more a power forward than Sheed.

[ABDENOUR POWER]

Big Ben is more a power forward than Sheed.

I don't think so....

[jermaine7fan]

I've got Amare listed as a center... even though Thomas will do most of the Center work... so here is my Amare-less list... for forecasted tops in '06
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Jermaine O'Neal
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Elton Brand
6. Zach Randolph
7. Dwight Howard
8. Chris Webber
9. Kenyon Martin
10. Carlos Boozer

[SoupIsGood]

I like JO over Dirk, but Dirk deserves it this year for the season he had, and the season that JO didn't..

[Sense]

I like JO over Dirk, but Dirk deserves it this year for the season he had, and the season that JO didn't..


I agree.

Dirk has been better than Jermaine.

[ALVAREZ6]

Amare should be at least, at least #7.

[Marklar MM]

I don't think so....


I think so.

[Sense]

I think so.


I don't think so.

[Marklar MM]

I don't think so.

I think so.

[Sense]

I think so.

You don't think though. :spin

[SoupIsGood]

I don't think...... so?

[jermaine7fan]

I like JO over Dirk, but Dirk deserves it this year for the season he had, and the season that JO didn't.."in '06" :lol

[jermaine7fan]

Amare should be at least, at least #7.If Amare had counted on my list... I would have put him at two... for '06.

[batman2883]

http://www.sptimmy.com/pics/sp409_timmy.jpg

Timmy, timmy!!!!

[samikeyp]

1. Tim Duncan

2.-? Does it matter? :p

[batman2883]

1. Tim Duncan

2.-? Does it matter? :p


Perfectly said...Timmy for president....

[mookie2001]

classic

[The Artest Factor]

1. Kevin Garnett - Mr. Do-It-All. He's the best offensive and defensive power forward in the league, and to top it off he's also the best rebounding and passing 4 in the game. How can he not be #1?

2. Tim Duncan - Second best defender and rebounder PF in the league behind Garnett. 3rd best scorer behind Garnett and Dirk. His main weakness is his atrocious free throw shooting and mediocre passing.

3. Jermaine O'Neal - A drop-off here. JO is basically Duncan-lite. Still, his offense, defense, and rebonding puts him ahead of the defensive liability and average rebounder Dirk Nowitzki.

4. Dirk Nowitzki - Second best scoring PF, behind only Garnett. However he's an average rebounder and a poor defender, two of the three main aspects of a big mans game.

5. Elton Brand - Mr. Underrated. If he was three inches taller, he'd be challenging for #1. However he is what he is, a great rebounder, good scorer, and ok defender.

[Dex]

How can he not be #1?


Um, because he hasn't won jack shit.

Next.

[mookie2001]

aw come on!
he's only had 5 allstars and a number one pick play with him!
they just all sucked

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

1. Kevin Garnett - Mr. Do-It-All. He's the best offensive and defensive power forward in the league, and to top it off he's also the best rebounding and passing 4 in the game. How can he not be #1?

2. Tim Duncan - Second best defender and rebounder PF in the league behind Garnett. 3rd best scorer behind Garnett and Dirk. His main weakness is his atrocious free throw shooting and mediocre passing.

3. Jermaine O'Neal - A drop-off here. JO is basically Duncan-lite. Still, his offense, defense, and rebonding puts him ahead of the defensive liability and average rebounder Dirk Nowitzki.

4. Dirk Nowitzki - Second best scoring PF, behind only Garnett. However he's an average rebounder and a poor defender, two of the three main aspects of a big mans game.

5. Elton Brand - Mr. Underrated. If he was three inches taller, he'd be challenging for #1. However he is what he is, a great rebounder, good scorer, and ok defender.

Im surprised he didnt put Jermaine O'Neal at no. 1 and whoever was backup for the Pacers at PF at no. 2. Shocking!!!! :rollin :rollin

[THE X-FACTOR]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Rasheed Wallace
5. Elton Brand
6. Jermaine O'Neal
7. Dwight Howard
8. Chris Webber
9. Kenyon Martin
10. Antonio McDyess

[Manu20]

Here are my top ten (If I include Amare he would be #4)

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Jermaine O'neal
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Dwight Howard
7. Chris Webber
8. Chris Bosh
9. Paul Gasol
10. Shareef Abdur-Rahim

[CalsonicKansei]

1.TIMMY
2.Kevin G
3.Nowitzki
4.Rashweed
5.Gasol
6.Kareem
7.Martin
8.Grant
9.Karl Malone
10.Webber

[Spurs košarka kultura]

5.Gasol
6.Kareem


:huh

[The Artest Factor]

Rasheed Wallace might not be in my top-10 power forwards.. He's really the leagues most overrated player I.M.O.
Why do I feel this way?
Career 15.8 Points Per Game is only slightly above average. Far from elite status.
Career 6.9 Rebounds Per Game would make Daniel Santiago blush with embarassment.
Career 1.3 Blocks Per Game show me that he's not an interior defensive force.
He's proven to be a loser. Those late-90's|early-2000 Portland teams were the most talented in the league, yet they never had a special player to lead them anywhere.
He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery. Detroit was already a great team. He just hopped on the band wagon.
He's a team cancer. It hasn't quite reached that point in Detroit yet, but it's getting there. How long untill he throws a towel in Flip Saunders face? Before the All-Star break?
He leads the league in techs. Those free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss.
His positives aren't all that positive to begin with, as he's not a great player in any aspect of the game. However when you combined all of his negatives, it really makes him an average power forward in my opinion. There;s a reason he hasn't made an All-Star team in 5 years while guys like Antione Walker and Wally Szczerbiak have.

[JamStone]

Rasheed Wallace might not be in my top-10 power forwards.. He's really the leagues most overrated player I.M.O.
Why do I feel this way?
Career 15.8 Points Per Game is only slightly above average. Far from elite status.
Career 6.9 Rebounds Per Game would make Daniel Santiago blush with embarassment.
Career 1.3 Blocks Per Game show me that he's not an interior defensive force.
He's proven to be a loser. Those late-90's|early-2000 Portland teams were the most talented in the league, yet they never had a special player to lead them anywhere.
He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery. Detroit was already a great team. He just hopped on the band wagon.
He's a team cancer. It hasn't quite reached that point in Detroit yet, but it's getting there. How long untill he throws a towel in Flip Saunders face? Before the All-Star break?
He leads the league in techs. Those free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss.
His positives aren't all that positive to begin with, as he's not a great player in any aspect of the game. However when you combined all of his negatives, it really makes him an average power forward in my opinion. There;s a reason he hasn't made an All-Star team in 5 years while guys like Antione Walker and Wally Szczerbiak have.

1. Rasheed's career 15.8 points per game: Hall of Famer Kevin McHale's career ppg is 17.9, basically one basket more than Rasheed's. Future Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen's career ppg is 16.1, and he was the only "OTHER" scorer on those Bull's teams. Allegedly "PROLIFIC" 3 pt "SHOOTING GUARD" Reggie Miller's career ppg is 18.2, not THAT much more than Rasheed's, and Reggie was the focus of the offense for many years. Rasheed is definitely not on the level of Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki or even Amare Stoudemire in terms of point production. He feels more comfortable with having a secondary role on a team. But, if you take into consideration his unselfishness and defensive talents, I think he is just below those top four power forwards.

By the way, Jermaine O'Neal's career points per game is 13.3, and Ron Artest's career points per game is 14.4.

2. Career 6.9 rebounds per game is not that good for a top tier power forward, you're right. He is not a GREAT rebounder for his height, size, and talent, but you can attribute that two a coupld of different things. First, he spends time shooting jumpshots so he is not a great offensive rebounder. Also, he has spent time on frontlines that have included Chris Webber, Dale Davis, Arvydas Sabonis, and Ben Wallace, all very good, or great rebounders. Kevin Garnett has never really had a frontcourt mate who has posted 7-8 rpg. Duncan had DRob, and you saw Robinson's minutes and rebounds per game drop noticeably when Duncan came to the Spurs. Rasheed also spent 1 1/2 seasons at the small forward position, which may also have had an effect on his rebounding numbers.

3. Career 1.3 blocks per game: That's a very good bpg average! Are you kidding me??? And, blocks per game is not a good baromter for being an "interior defensive force." There are very good post defenders that are not good shot-blockers. For example, Cliff Robinson was renown as being a great post defender, but he was never known as a great shot-blocker. Rasheed is one of the best post defenders in the game.

4. "He's a proven loser." That's a pretty shallow statement, obviously predicated on a biased hatred towards a player and/or his team, considering Rasheed's last two seasons. Actually, Rasheed's a proven winner after these two years.

5. "He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery." What???

Portland Trailblazer's season records with Rasheed Wallace:

1996-97 ............. 49-33
1997-98 ..............46-36
1998-99 ..............35-15
1999-2000 ...........59-23
2000-01 ..............50-32
2001-02 ..............49-33
2002-03 ..............50-32

When exactly were the Blazers in the lottery with Rasheed Wallace on the team?

6. "He's a team cancer." That's funny coming from someone that uses the screen name "ARTEST FACTOR." But, if Rasheed being a cancer results in the Pistons going to the NBA Finals twice and winning a championship once in the TWO YEARS he's been aboard, I'll take it.

7. "free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss." So does that mean Shaquille O'Neal is not the best center in the league because his free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss? Bringing up technical fouls is silly. Kevin Garnett gets his fair share of technicals. Dirk Nowitzki and Amare Stoudemire had quite a few techs too. Just a poor argument and one just to try to pile on negatives on Rasheed, but ok.

8. All-star appearances: Perhaps guys like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and Chris Webber had something to do with Rasheed not making an all star team in a while. Also, he doesn't have the biggest fanbase to begin with. And, now, on such a balanced team, his numbers really don't warrant it, but he's content with good numbers and a balanced team if it means the team is successful. And, Antoine Walker didn't make the all star team when he was in the Western Conference either.


Rasheed is not an "elite" power forward. He won't be in the hall of fame. But, after Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, and Amare Stoudemire, he's as good as any other power forward in the league. Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber, Elton Brand, Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard are also in the second tier of power forwards. And, Rasheed is as good as any of those players. When it comes down to it, don't just look at the numbers. Because numbers are nice, but they do no good if your team doesn't win games. Rasheed sacrifices some of his point production because he has two great scoring guards in Billups and Hamilton. Rasheed won't rebound or block as many shots because of Ben Wallace. But, it doesn't really matter to him. It's players like that, like Bruce Bowen, like Jeff Foster, like Udonis Haslem ... guys who are unselfish and sacrifice stats or do the dirty work that really deserve credit.

[jermaine7fan]

1. Rasheed's career 15.8 points per game: Hall of Famer Kevin McHale's career ppg is 17.9, basically one basket more than Rasheed's. Future Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen's career ppg is 16.1, and he was the only "OTHER" scorer on those Bull's teams. Allegedly "PROLIFIC" 3 pt "SHOOTING GUARD" Reggie Miller's career ppg is 18.2, not THAT much more than Rasheed's, and Reggie was the focus of the offense for many years. Rasheed is definitely not on the level of Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki or even Amare Stoudemire in terms of point production. He feels more comfortable with having a secondary role on a team. But, if you take into consideration his unselfishness and defensive talents, I think he is just below those top four power forwards.

By the way, Jermaine O'Neal's career points per game is 13.3, and Ron Artest's career points per game is 14.4.

2. Career 6.9 rebounds per game is not that good for a top tier power forward, you're right. He is not a GREAT rebounder for his height, size, and talent, but you can attribute that two a coupld of different things. First, he spends time shooting jumpshots so he is not a great offensive rebounder. Also, he has spent time on frontlines that have included Chris Webber, Dale Davis, Arvydas Sabonis, and Ben Wallace, all very good, or great rebounders. Kevin Garnett has never really had a frontcourt mate who has posted 7-8 rpg. Duncan had DRob, and you saw Robinson's minutes and rebounds per game drop noticeably when Duncan came to the Spurs. Rasheed also spent 1 1/2 seasons at the small forward position, which may also have had an effect on his rebounding numbers.

3. Career 1.3 blocks per game: That's a very good bpg average! Are you kidding me??? And, blocks per game is not a good baromter for being an "interior defensive force." There are very good post defenders that are not good shot-blockers. For example, Cliff Robinson was renown as being a great post defender, but he was never known as a great shot-blocker. Rasheed is one of the best post defenders in the game.

4. "He's a proven loser." That's a pretty shallow statement, obviously predicated on a biased hatred towards a player and/or his team, considering Rasheed's last two seasons. Actually, Rasheed's a proven winner after these two years.

5. "He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery." What???

Portland Trailblazer's season records with Rasheed Wallace:

1996-97 ............. 49-33
1997-98 ..............46-36
1998-99 ..............35-15
1999-2000 ...........59-23
2000-01 ..............50-32
2001-02 ..............49-33
2002-03 ..............50-32

When exactly were the Blazers in the lottery with Rasheed Wallace on the team?

6. "He's a team cancer." That's funny coming from someone that uses the screen name "ARTEST FACTOR." But, if Rasheed being a cancer results in the Pistons going to the NBA Finals twice and winning a championship once in the TWO YEARS he's been aboard, I'll take it.

7. "free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss." So does that mean Shaquille O'Neal is not the best center in the league because his free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss? Bringing up technical fouls is silly. Kevin Garnett gets his fair share of technicals. Dirk Nowitzki and Amare Stoudemire had quite a few techs too. Just a poor argument and one just to try to pile on negatives on Rasheed, but ok.

8. All-star appearances: Perhaps guys like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and Chris Webber had something to do with Rasheed not making an all star team in a while. Also, he doesn't have the biggest fanbase to begin with. And, now, on such a balanced team, his numbers really don't warrant it, but he's content with good numbers and a balanced team if it means the team is successful. And, Antoine Walker didn't make the all star team when he was in the Western Conference either.


Rasheed is not an "elite" power forward. He won't be in the hall of fame. But, after Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, and Amare Stoudemire, he's as good as any other power forward in the league. Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber, Elton Brand, Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard are also in the second tier of power forwards. And, Rasheed is as good as any of those players. When it comes down to it, don't just look at the numbers. Because numbers are nice, but they do no good if your team doesn't win games. Rasheed sacrifices some of his point production because he has two great scoring guards in Billups and Hamilton. Rasheed won't rebound or block as many shots because of Ben Wallace. But, it doesn't really matter to him. It's players like that, like Bruce Bowen, like Jeff Foster, like Udonis Haslem ... guys who are unselfish and sacrifice stats or do the dirty work that really deserve credit.JO's career averages are so low because he spent his first few seasons riding the pine... behind Rasheed...

Do you honestly believe Rasheed would start over JO right now? Cause if he is just as good as you claim... he would. JO belongs in that tier with Duncan, KG, and Dirk... Rasheed is in the group below... when was the last time Rasheed scored over 50 points in a game?

[mookie2001]

there is 3 tiers

tim
kg

then

dirk
joneal

then

the rest

dont say dirk is on par with duncan and kg, and dont say kg is on par with duncan
kg has been in the league two more years that duncan, played with 5 different allstars and hasnt done shit

[jermaine7fan]

there is 3 tiers

tim
kg

then

dirk
joneal

then

the rest

dont say dirk is on par with duncan and kg, and dont say kg is on par with duncan
kg has been in the league two more years that duncan, played with 5 different allstars and hasnt done shitI can agree with that

[JamStone]

JO's career averages are so low because he spent his first few seasons riding the pine... behind Rasheed...

Do you honestly believe Rasheed would start over JO right now? Cause if he is just as good as you claim... he would. JO belongs in that tier with Duncan, KG, and Dirk... Rasheed is in the group below... when was the last time Rasheed scored over 50 points in a game?


I would probably rank Jermaine O'Neal ahead of Rasheed Wallace, but don't believe Jermaine is MUCH better than Rasheed.

Jermaine has had a couple (3) great years, Duncan and KG have been doing it for 7-8 years. Dirk has been very good for 5 years now. I wouldn't be completely opposed to placing Jermaine O'Neal in that group, but it's just my opinion that he isn't yet.

And, since when was "SCORING OVER 50 POINTS IN A GAME" equate to being an elite basketball player? Apparently, you think TONY DELK is one of the best point guards in the NBA.

[mookie2001]

danna barros is a hall of famer

[JamStone]

there is 3 tiers

tim
kg

then

dirk
joneal

then

the rest

dont say dirk is on par with duncan and kg, and dont say kg is on par with duncan
kg has been in the league two more years that duncan, played with 5 different allstars and hasnt done shit


Again, I'm not opposed to placing Jermaine O'Neal in a group with TD, KG, and Dirk. But, I just believe those three are in a class by themselves. I would put Jermaine O'Neal and Amare Stoudemire (even though he may end up playing center again this year) right after those three.

I'll say Kevin Garnett is on par with Tim Duncan, and you can argue with me as much as you want. I think those two are the best two power forwards in the league, and both will end up being top five power forwards in NBA history. They are both future hall of famers, guaranteed. Tim Duncan has had championship success, and KG hasn't, and that's the distinction. But, as individual players and in terms of skills and talent, KG is every bit as good as Tim Duncan, maybe even better in terms of athleticism and skills. Duncan is better because of his rings, because of his playoff success, because of his will to win. But the topic wasn't "best power forward winners" or "best team players at the power forward position" or "best power forward champions." It's a similar argument to Wilt v. Russell. There's no denying that Wilt Chamberlain in his time was the most dominating basketball force, but Bill Russell had all the championship rings. So who's better?

I put KG and TD together because talent and skill wise, they are.

In fact, Kevin Garnett is the only player to average 20 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 apg in SIX consecutive seasons. THE ONLY PLAYER in NBA history. THE ONLY PLAYER. ONLY.

Getting the rings and the trophy is a TEAM concept. We're talking about individual players.

[mookie2001]

both will end up being top five power forwards in NBA history
naturally
top 2 you mean

duncan is the only player EVER, in NBA HISTORY to be on the nba 1st team his FIRST 8 (EIGHT) years in the league...EVER
he was on the same 1st team as michael jordan, karl malone.
he also trails only one player ever in finals mvps
michael jordan
and the only players in NBA HISTORY to win multiple titles, and multiple MVPS

are
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
jordan
duncan
is that good company?

[smeagol]

Rasheed Wallace might not be in my top-10 power forwards.. He's really the leagues most overrated player I.M.O.
Why do I feel this way?
Career 15.8 Points Per Game is only slightly above average. Far from elite status.
Another idiot who thiks ppg means everything.

[mookie2001]

the only players in NBA HISTORY to win multiple titles, and multiple MVPS

are
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
jordan
duncan
is that good company?


IS that good company?
i need to be reassured

[jermaine7fan]

I would probably rank Jermaine O'Neal ahead of Rasheed Wallace, but don't believe Jermaine is MUCH better than Rasheed.

Jermaine has had a couple (3) great years, Duncan and KG have been doing it for 7-8 years. Dirk has been very good for 5 years now. I wouldn't be completely opposed to placing Jermaine O'Neal in that group, but it's just my opinion that he isn't yet.

And, since when was "SCORING OVER 50 POINTS IN A GAME" equate to being an elite basketball player? Apparently, you think TONY DELK is one of the best point guards in the NBA.
Tony Delk didn't average 24+ points either... he was a fluke that night... good comeback though :lol

And JO is alot younger than Duncan, KG, and Dirk... he has not yet reached his prime... whereas those players are currently in theirs... some people forget that JO only came out of his shell three years ago... those other players have been doing it for years... and IMO JO is twice the player Rasheed is... for most of the year (and definately when he is not facing him... Sheed was JO's mentor in Portland... I think Sheed can psych him out some)... Sheed has also been healthier in the playoffs for the last two years. But I have a feeling that Jermaine will grow some as a player this year...

[2centsworth]

1.Timmy
2.Amare
3.KG
4.Dirk
5.Brand
6.Joneal
7.Sheed
8. Kenyon Martin
9.Chris Bosh
10. Robert Horry

Noticeably absent is Antoine Walker. Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard are centers in my book.

[clubalien]

1:KG
2:tim
3:amare
4:dirk
5:j oneal
those are my top 5

[jermaine7fan]

I can see Dirk over JO... but I can't believe people have rated Brand and others (Rasheed) above him...

[2centsworth]

I can see Dirk over JO... but I can't believe people have rated Brand and others (Rasheed) above him...
Brand is a monster stuck in a hell hole. I gave the edge to brand because of his defensive prowess. Guy averages more boards and more blocks than does Jermaine. Also doesn't rely on his jumper as much as Jermaine does. Plus, Jermaine has a bit of a bad attitude. Didn't he blame Sjax for a playoff loss against Detroit? Close but I like Brand.

[jermaine7fan]

Brand is a monster stuck in a hell hole. I gave the edge to brand because of his defensive prowess. Guy averages more boards and more blocks than does Jermaine. Also doesn't rely on his jumper as much as Jermaine does. Plus, Jermaine has a bit of a bad attitude. Didn't he blame Sjax for a playoff loss against Detroit? Close but I like Brand.
I don't think Jermaine said that about Stephen... JO is notorius for taking the blame upon himself... even when it isn't his fault... JO has a bad attitude with no one except referee's... which is something Rick has claimed our entire teams needs to cut down on... Actually... the Pacers motto this year has something to do with not complaining about what you can't control. And Brand's defensive stats aren't as impressive over Jermaine's as his offensive one's are over Brand's.

[SoupIsGood]

Brand can block shots, but JO is the better post defender IMHO

[2centsworth]

I don't think Jermaine said that about Stephen... JO is notorius for taking the blame upon himself... even when it isn't his fault... JO has a bad attitude with no one except referee's... which is something Rick has claimed our entire teams needs to cut down on... Actually... the Pacers motto this year has something to do with not complaining about what you can't control. And Brand's defensive stats aren't as impressive over Jermaine's as his offensive one's are over Brand's.

Offense means very little to people in San Antonio, note Peja stojacovich. I remember Jermaine being suspended 15 games and also complaining about racism in the NBA. Plus, by all accounts he did blame Stephan Jackson for the game 4 or 5 loss against the pistons. Jermaine has serious game, but has a lot of room for improvement. I like Brand for some of the same reasons i like Tim over Garnett.

[2centsworth]

but JO is the better post defender IMHO
can you support that argument?

[SoupIsGood]

can you support that argument?

Uh.... ?

From when I've seen Brand play, I've thought his post defense wasn't as good as Jermaine's.

It is just an opinion, feel free to disagree with it. :hat

[2centsworth]

Uh.... ?

From when I've seen Brand play, I've thought his post defense wasn't as good as Jermaine's.

It is just an opinion, feel free to disagree with it. :hat
Opinion is usually supported by facts, any particular game you can point to? Homerism is just saying IMO my guy is better than yours.

[SoupIsGood]

Opinion is usually supported by facts, any particular game you can point to? Homerism is just saying IMO my guy is better than yours.


No, I don't have a video compilation of Brand's post defense vs. Jermaine's post defense. I'd love to see yours though if you have one.;)

How is that homerism? Just because I prefer not to turn the whole thing into a giant pissing match with goofy stats....?

I think Jermaine is a pretty good defender, but not great. I put Brand slightly below JO when it comes to post defense. They both are good shotblockers.

I do think Jermaine's height and length compared to Brand plays a part in it.

[2centsworth]

I do think Jermaine's height and length compared to Brand plays a part in it.
Finally some substance. JO is taller so you think he's a better defender.

I prefer to look at shot blocking and steals.

Height can be deceiving when it comes to defense or else YAO would be DPOY every year and not Ben Wallace.

[SoupIsGood]

Finally some substance. JO is taller so you think he's a better defender.

I prefer to look at shot blocking and steals.

Height can be deceiving when it comes to defense or else YAO would be DPOY every year and not Ben Wallace.

:drunk

[1Parker1]

I've never understood the facination with Jermaine Oneal. I think he's a little over-rated. Everytime I watched a Pacers game last season, I wasn't that impressed with him. His defense is sub-par, his playing seems erratic and inconsistent, and he doesn't put up the great assists numbers that other PF's like Duncan and Garnett put up. Now, I can see him in the top 10 PF list....but #4? Plus, he has yet to win anything significant or make it to the NBA Finals....


Maybe I'm just watching him when he's playing sub-par. While I think he's a good player, I just don't see what the big hype over him is.

[2centsworth]

I've never understood the facination with Jermaine Oneal. I think he's a little over-rated. Everytime I watched a Pacers game last season, I wasn't that impressed with him. His defense is sub-par, his playing seems erratic and inconsistent, and he doesn't put up the great assists numbers that other PF's like Duncan and Garnett put up. Now, I can see him in the top 10 PF list....but #4? Plus, he has yet to win anything significant or make it to the NBA Finals....


Maybe I'm just watching him when he's playing sub-par. While I think he's a good player, I just don't see what the big hype over him is.
If his jumpshot isn't rolling he struggles.

[JamStone]

Tony Delk didn't average 24+ points either... he was a fluke that night... good comeback though :lol



You just made my point for me. jermaine7fan, YOU were the one to bring up the "50 points in one game" thing so laugh at your own self. By the way, Tony Delk has had at least two 50 point games that I can remember. Still doesn't change the fact that having a 50 point game doesn't mean you're an elite player, yet YOU liked to use the argument as it pertained to Jermaine O'Neal versus Rasheed Wallace, but find it nonsensical if applied to Tony Delk versus other elite guards ... irony.

[JamStone]

And JO is alot younger than Duncan, KG, and Dirk... he has not yet reached his prime... whereas those players are currently in theirs... some people forget that JO only came out of his shell three years ago... those other players have been doing it for years... and IMO JO is twice the player Rasheed is... for most of the year (and definately when he is not facing him... Sheed was JO's mentor in Portland... I think Sheed can psych him out some)... Sheed has also been healthier in the playoffs for the last two years. But I have a feeling that Jermaine will grow some as a player this year...



I guess you and I have a difference of opinion on what "A LOT YOUNGER" means ...

KG is just over 2 years older than JO, and has been in the league for a HUGE one more season than him.

Duncan is also just over 2 years older than JO, and actually came into the NBA a year after Jermaine.

Dirk is a whopping FOUR MONTHS older than Jermaine, and has played in two fewer NBA seasons.


If Jermaine is twice the player Rasheed Wallace is, then when the two play each other, he shouldn't allow Rasheed to continually punk him in the post. You'll find very few basketball experts, analysts, or writers that will argue that talent-wise and skill-wise, Rasheed as as good as any power forward in the league. And, while some people will argue that Rasheed doesn't put up the big numbers, a lot of people find his unselfishness and apathy towards individual statistics as a POSITIVE attribute. On a team like the Detroit Pistons, Rasheed doesn't need to average 20 points a game or 9 rebounds a game, and in fact doing so might be detrimental to the team given the balance in scoring and the team oriented nature of both the offense and defense.

But, JERMAINE7FAN, people like you will look ONLY at statistics and value them more than team success or team chemistry. You will tote the fact that Jermaine averaged 24 ppg last season but not acknowledge the fact that Jermaine only played about 45 regular season games and the majority of those games were without the team's SECOND OPTION on offense in Ron Artest, so his scoring production was skewed. Jermaine is still an excellent talent, but is more of a 18-20 ppg scorer AS THE NUMBER 1 OPTION. Rasheed is not the number one option on the Pistons. He's usually not the number two option either. But, that doesn't mean that talent wise he's not as good as Jermaine O'Neal.

You can have your opinion and think Jermaine is twice the player as Rasheed. I will respectfully disagree and be happy with Rasheed not being better than Jermaine if it means the Pistons as a team and organization continues to have better success than Jermaine O'Neal and his team.

[The Artest Factor]

I guess you and I have a difference of opinion on what "A LOT YOUNGER" means ...

KG is just over 2 years older than JO, and has been in the league for a HUGE one more season than him.

Duncan is also just over 2 years older than JO, and actually came into the NBA a year after Jermaine.

Dirk is a whopping FOUR MONTHS older than Jermaine, and has played in two fewer NBA seasons.

Jermaine O'Neal is 26 years, 10 months, 4 weeks old

Rasheed Wallace is 4 years and 1 month older than JO. That's a very signifigant margin.
Kevin Garnett is 2 years, 4 months older. A fairly signifigant differential.
Tim Duncan is 2 years, 5 monts older. Once again, a fairly signifigant differential.
Dirk is 4 months older. Very little differential.

So outside of Dirk, the other three players are substantianally older than Jermaine, particularly Rasheed. Where as JO has yet to hit his physical peak, KG and Duncan are currently in theirs, and Sheed is past his.

Now as for in-game experience.....
Jermaine O'Neal has played 14,949 career minutes.
Rasheed Wallace has played 24,530 career minutes. That's an additional 9,581 career minutes, or, based on Sheeds career mpg, an additional 278 games. That's 3.4 seasons.
Kevin Garnett has played in 29,605 career minutes. That's an additional 14,656 career minutes, or, based on KGs career mpg, an additional 384 games. That's 4.7 seasons.
Tim Duncan has played in 22,444 career minutes. That's an additional 7,495 career minutes, or, based on Duncans career mpg, an additional 196 games. That's 2.4 seasons.
Dirk Nowitzki has played 18,949 career minutes. That's an additional 4,000 minutes, or, based on Dirks career mpg, an additional 110 career games. That's 1.3 seasons.

So once again, Jermaine O'Neal has signifigantly less NBA on-court experience than the other four men.

Jermaine O'Neal is the youngest of the five. Jermaine O'Neal is the least experienced of the five. It's only natural to assume that Jermaine O'Neal also has the most untapped potential of the five.


If Jermaine is twice the player Rasheed Wallace is, then when the two play each other, he shouldn't allow Rasheed to continually punk him in the post.
GAME 1 - November 19, 2004
Jermaine - 20 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists
Rasheed - 19 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

GAME 2 - December 25, 2004
21 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 5 blocks
Rasheed - 16 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assist, 1 block
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

GAME 3 - January 27, 2005
Jermaine - 27 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks
Rasheed - 13 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 block
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

GAME 4 - March 25, 2005
Jermaine - DNP
Rasheed - 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - N/A, although if the prior games are any indication, JO would've easily bested those run-of-the-mill numbers.

GAME 5 - May 9, 2005 (ECR2 G1)
Jermaine - 22 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 11 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

GAME 6 - May 11, 2005 (ECR2 G2)
Jermaine - 22 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 5 blocks
Rasheed - 14 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

GAME 7 - May 13, 2005 (ECR2 G3)
Jermaine - 8 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 13 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - *gasp!* Rasheed Wallace! It took probably the worst game of JO's season, but Sheed finally gets the best of him.

GAME 8 - May 15, 2005 (ECR2 G4)
Jermaine - 10 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks
Rasheed - 17 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assist, 5 blocks
Winner - Rasheed with 2 in a row!

GAME 9 - May 17, 2005 (ECR2 G5)
Jermaine - 14 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 10 points, 8 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - Rasheed, barely

GAME 10 - May 19, 2005 (ECR2 G6)
Jermaine - 22 points, 11 rebounds, 0 assist, 3 blocks
Rasheed - 14 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal

So of the 9 games they played last year, JO won 6, Sheed won 3. The only 3 games Rasheed won were games in which JO was playing at no better than 85% with a bum shoulder. Games in which the 85% JO was defended by the DPOY, while Sheed was defended by an 85% JO.



You'll find very few basketball experts, analysts, or writers that will argue that talent-wise and skill-wise, Rasheed as as good as any power forward in the league.
That's NBA "experts" being theor usual uninformed selfs. The truth is, while Rasheed has good length to be a fairly good defender, his offensive game is only average, as his post moves are subpar. He's also a piss poor rebounder, one of the main aspects of a big mans game. And that's just his physical play. You have to understand, the game of basketball is atleast 50% mental. And Rasheed Wallace is the mental equivalence of Earl Boykins. Overlooking the mental aspect of basketball proves just how little these experts, and you yourself, actually know.


And, while some people will argue that Rasheed doesn't put up the big numbers, a lot of people find his unselfishness and apathy towards individual statistics as a POSITIVE attribute. On a team like the Detroit Pistons, Rasheed doesn't need to average 20 points a game or 9 rebounds a game, and in fact doing so might be detrimental to the team given the balance in scoring and the team oriented nature of both the offense and defense.
No. It's because he doesn't have what it takes to be a great basketball player. That was proven everywhere he's player from UNC to Washington to Portland to Atlanta :lol up to Detroit. And by the way, his "unselfish" has led to a career 1.9 assists per game. Wow.


But, JERMAINE7FAN, people like you will look ONLY at statistics and value them more than team success or team chemistry. You will tote the fact that Jermaine averaged 24 ppg last season but not acknowledge the fact that Jermaine only played about 45 regular season games and the majority of those games were without the team's SECOND OPTION on offense in Ron Artest, so his scoring production was skewed.
Jermaine took a measely 1.5 more shots per game than last year. His increased points per game was primarily due to his increase of +3 in free throw attempts per game, and an increase of 1.8% in his field goal percentage. And remember, Artest's missing offense was replaced by Reggie Miller and to a lesser extent Jamaal Tinsley and James Jones.


Jermaine is still an excellent talent, but is more of a 18-20 ppg scorer AS THE NUMBER 1 OPTION. Rasheed is not the number one option on the Pistons. He's usually not the number two option either. But, that doesn't mean that talent wise he's not as good as Jermaine O'Neal.
Actually, over the past 4 years JO has averaged 20.7 points per game. And he's getting better all the time, evidenced by the fact that his points per game have increased 6 of his past 7 years in the league. I'd say he's more of a 21-22 point per game scorer at this point in time.
And as for JO being the #1 option whereas Rasheed is the #2/3 option - there's a reason for that. Jermaine is the better offensive player, by a good margin. Believe you me, if JO was on the Pistons, he'd be the unquestionable #1 option, not the #3 option behind a career 40% shooter and one-dimensional jump shooter.


You can have your opinion and think Jermaine is twice the player as Rasheed. I will respectfully disagree and be happy with Rasheed not being better than Jermaine if it means the Pistons as a team and organization continues to have better success than Jermaine O'Neal and his team.
Jermaine O'Neal is better than Rasheed Wallace, and it's mot even close. Get over it. You don't see Pacer fans claiming that Bender is better than Prince even though Bender is the more physically gifted player.
Jermaine O'Neal is a perenial All-Star, perenial All-NBA player, and perenial top-5ish MVP candidate. Rasheed can't even make the All-Star team in the East where a guy like Antawn Jamison can. :lol

[SoupIsGood]

Jermaine is a better player than Rasheed, but Rasheed pretty much owns JO in the individual matchup.

[JamStone]

TheArtestFactor,

1. Jermaine7fan never mentioned Rasheed Wallace being A LOT OLDER than Jermaine O'Neal and I didn't argue the point, so you can take him off of your comparative age analysis. NOT EVEN IN THE NBA is 2 years A HUGE DIFFERENCE between people. KG also came out of high school, and Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki came into the league AFTER Jermaine O'Neal.

2. IT IS NOT any one else's fault but Jermaine's that he was NOT GOOD ENOUGH to unseat Rasheed Wallace from the starting spot or even get MORE MINUTES. Again Jermaine got into the league BEFORE Tim Duncan AND Dirk Nowitzki, and only ONE YEAR AFTER KG. When the Trailblazers drafted ZACH RANDOLPH, by his second year, he was so good, they couldn't keep him on the bench, so they pushed Rasheed Wallace to the small forward spot to give Zach minutes at the PF. How come Jermaine O'Neal couldn't do that? Your "minutes" argument holds no weight because it was Jermaine's own fault he didn't get more minutes.

3. I like how you will boast about "regular season" games in the Jermaine-Rasheed match-up like they even remotely mean something compared to the playoffs. YOU yourself, ArtestFactor, see that in the playoffs, Rasheed handles Jermaine pretty well. Complain about the BUM SHOULDER all you want. It's a nice excuse. It's a mentality of justifying losing. Those ECF games prove Jermaine is not "TWICE THE PLAYER" Rasheed is. Of course, Jermaine is capable of having big games, and he had two of them early, but when it came crunch time, Jermaine didn't look good until game 6 when the series was basically already decided.

4. Those "uninformed experts" you talk about also think Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominant force in the NBA, LeBron James is the next greatest thing in basketball, Ron Artest is the best two-way perimeter player in the league, and Rick Carlisle is one of the top 5 coaches in the NBA. I guess they're wrong about those as well? And, if Rasheed Wallace is the "mental equivalent" of Earl Boykins, then what does that say about Jermaine O'Neal over whom Rasheed has a psychological advantage? I guess Jermaine O'Neal is the "mental equivalent" to Emmanuel Lewis then?


No. It's because he doesn't have what it takes to be a great basketball player. That was proven everywhere he's player from UNC to Washington to Portland to Atlanta up to Detroit. And by the way, his "unselfish" has led to a career 1.9 assists per game. Wow.

5. Rasheed Wallace has had winning teams every where he's played. If you want a perenniel loser, look at a guy like Shareef Abdur-Rahim or Elton Brand. To label Rasheed someone who is doesn't have what it takes to be great would basically be saying every power forward except for Tim Duncan doesn't have what it takes to be great. And, your list of the best power forwards should be 1. Tim Duncan, 2. Robert Horry, 3. Rasheed Wallace, 4. Samaki Walker because those are really the only current power forwards who have gone all the way to win championships in recent years as starters.

6. You do know that more foul shots basically mean MORE TOUCHES, and that being fouled on shot attempts do not STATISTICALLY equate to a FGA, right? He got more free throws because he got more touches. And, that's exactly my point. He takes 1.5 more FGA and gets 3 more free throws per game, and gets 4 more points. With a healthy Artest, he would get fewer FGA and fewer free throws, and is likely more of a 18-20 ppg scorer. You didn't refute that claim.

7. On the Pistons, I believe Jermaine would be the second option after Rip Hamilton because the Detroit offense runs most smoothly when Rip is dictating ball movement by his usage of screens and taking midrange shots. And, Jermaine O'Neal WOULD NOT average 20 ppg on a Pistons team with Chauncey, Rip and Tayshaun. And, if he did, it would hurt the team. AND, you can believe Jermaine WOULD NOT average 10 rpg on a frontline with BEN WALLACE. You would be crazy to believe that.

8. I have said a few times now that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Rasheed. I only qualify it by saying Jermaine is not THAT MUCH better than Rasheed. Using a Bender / Prince analogy is stupid, and it shows your bias. Both Rasheed and Jermaine are proven starters in the NBA. And, while Tayshaun Prince was a 39 mpg starting small forward last year, Jonathan Bender is a perennial 5 games per season injury waiting to happen mistake. That comparison just basically says you really don't want to argue facts. No, a fair comparison to Jermaine v. Rasheed is Chauncey Billups v. Jamaal Tinsley. And, if you think Jermaine O'Neal is twice the player that Rasheed is, then it would be fair to say that Chauncey Billups is twice the player that Jamaal Tinsley is. I don't believe that to be true, but that is more of a fair comparison to Jermaine v. Rasheed. And, by the way, Jermaine is a perennial all star in the EASTERN CONFERENCE, where in the last few years the only other good power forwards were Kenyon Martin and Antoine Walker. And, you want to brag about all-star selections. Again, shows a loser mentality, because individual accoladees are more important than team success to you Pacer fans. Last year was the only full season Rasheed had in the Eastern Conference, and his numbers didn't merit an all star selection. And, he doesn't care because his team WINS. On this Detroit team, Rasheed won't put up all-star numbers. Rasheed also has a bad reputation at this point, and probably won't be in another all star game. You Pacer fans can have all the all star bids you want, I'll take more championships, or at least a better chance at more championships.

Rasheed taught Jermaine a lot about playing in the league.

Rasheed has all of the same physical talents and skills as Jermaine.

Rasheed has gone deep in the playoffs in both the Western Conference and the Eastern Conference.

Rasheed has showed he has a mental advantage over Jermaine O'Neal these last two post seasons.


I can admit Jermaine O'Neal is a better player than Rasheed. Again, it's just NOT BY MUCH. Shaquille O'Neal is a better player than Ben Wallace, but we punked him in the playoffs the last two years too.

[The Artest Factor]

Jermaine is a better player than Rasheed, but Rasheed pretty much owns JO in the individual matchup.
Uh...buddy....did you not see the head to head matchups from the past year? JO absolutely dominates Rasheed, the only time Sheed even had a chance was when JO was injured ao badly he shouldnt have been playing, and even then it was 50/50.

[SoupIsGood]

Uh...buddy....did you not see the head to head matchups from the past year? JO absolutely dominates Rasheed, the only time Sheed even had a chance was when JO was injured ao badly he shouldnt have been playing, and even then it was 50/50.

Have you ever watched Jermaine score on Rasheed in the post?


OF COURSE YOU HAVEN'T! He can't! :pctoss

[The Artest Factor]

Well, he's doing something right beucase he pretty much dominates him.