KG and Dirk..

[Malik Hairston]

Have they surpassed Malone and Barkley, tbh? Either of them? Both?

[TDMVPDPOY]

kg the most overrated of the 4 players mention

[AlexJones]

Who are those two listed in the OP tbh?

[midnightpulp]

Dirk is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time (after Duncan, if you consider him a PF). All the stats, metrics, and even the eye test seem to support that. Even Dirk's much maligned defense was only once a net negative in his playoff career.

[Koolaid_Man]

Dirk is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time (after Duncan, if you consider him a PF). All the stats, metrics, and even the eye test seem to support that. Even Dirk's much maligned defense was only once a net negative in his playoff career.


Dirk and Timmy are some of the softest and lamest players in NBA history

[100%duncan]

Both are better than the 2 tbh. Malone is probably the biggest playoff choker of all time and Barkley is an underachiever.

[JamStone]

Yes. Both.

[baseline bum]

Nowitzki is easily the best of the four listed, no amount of regular season stats will ever trump ringing as a #1 option, much less doing it without an allstar teammate against the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat in one run.

[IronMexican]

He was amazing in the Western Conference playoffs, but Terry did nut up and deserved the MVP.

[TDfan2007]

Imo it's a toss-up between Dirk, Malone and Barkley, but KG stands above those 4 due to his 2 way brilliance.

Now if the argument is which would you take if starting a team, I might say Dirk because of his dominant scoring and ability to step up in the playoffs (Malone's chokes are well-documented). KG, for all of his 2 way brilliance, was never a dominant enough/willing scorer. He needed a guy like pierce the way Dirk needed a guy like chandler.

[Phillip]

Imo it's a toss-up between Dirk, Malone and Barkley, but KG stands above those 4 due to his 2 way brilliance.


:lmao idiot

[AlexJones]

crofl 2 way brilliance
crofl Marion>Kobe

[Arcadian]

Imo it's a toss-up between Dirk, Malone and Barkley, but KG stands above those 4 due to his 2 way brilliance.

Now if the argument is which would you take if starting a team, I might say Dirk because of his dominant scoring and ability to step up in the playoffs (Malone's chokes are well-documented). KG, for all of his 2 way brilliance, was never a dominant enough/willing scorer. He needed a guy like pierce the way Dirk needed a guy like chandler.

I agree. Garnett in 04 was one of the best peaks of all time. He even gave Timmy difficulties when they were both at their peaks.

[testies]

Dirk is much better than the other 3

[sook]

Yea tbh I'd rather have Dirk especially for the benefit of stretch 4s in today's game. Only dude in recent memory since Jordan that led a team to a ring as the main all star. KG had to team up with 2 others stars in their prime.

[Malik Hairston]

Yea tbh I'd rather have Dirk especially for the benefit of stretch 4s in today's game. Only dude in recent memory since Jordan that led a team to a ring as the main all star. KG had to team up with 2 others stars in their prime.

:lol what?

[DMC]

He was amazing in the Western Conference playoffs, but Terry did nut up and deserved the MVP.
Terry was a goddamned beast from the arc, and that nigga had the big brass balls to tattoo the LOB trophy on his fucking arm the prior off season. That's some alpha shit.

[DMC]

:lol what?
I think mainland China means "only All Star"

[TDfan2007]

:lmao idiot

I was speaking purely on overall basketball talent.

Don't try and pretend that prime KG wasn't an offensive force. He just wasn't as dominant on that end as Dirk.

Dirk's O > KG''s

KG's D >>> Dirk's

Again, I'd still take Dirk to start a franchise because of his unguardable nature. It's easier to find a C who can rebound/defend than one who can be an elite scorer.

[TDfan2007]

Yea tbh I'd rather have Dirk especially for the benefit of stretch 4s in today's game. Only dude in recent memory since Jordan that led a team to a ring as the main all star. KG had to team up with 2 others stars in their prime.

2003 Tim Duncan says hi.

Also, KG was that 08 team's best player and leader

[baseline bum]

:lol what?

I think he means of the four.

[Franklin]

KG was just unlucky he got drafted by a shitty franchise that the Timberwovles were. Imagine Duncan being drafted to Minnesota or Dirk staying in Milwaukee, neither of them would've won shit, at least not with the Wolves or Bucks imho. In terms of pure talent KG was indeed the best player in the league at one time, with his overall rating being set 99 in various video games. Too bad he didn't get a good team in his early career that could build a competitive squad around him, and then had to live in the shadow of Pierce as a Celtic.

[FkLA]

KG did just fine with Cassell and Spree. Would've probably reached the Finals in '04 with a healthy Cassell. He didn't need to form a Big Three to win, he just needed a better #2 than Wally Sczerbiak. ST is the only place (aside from Mavs sites) where the majority of people would take Dirk over him. :lol

[FkLA]

Dirk is the 2nd greatest PF of all-time (after Duncan, if you consider him a PF). All the stats, metrics, and even the eye test seem to support that. Even Dirk's much maligned defense was only once a net negative in his playoff career.

Only being an average/below average defender is a pretty big deal when he's being compared to a guy who was arguably the best defensive PF of all-time. Especially when that guy is also giving you 22-23 ppg on the other end.

[Phillip]

I was speaking purely on overall basketball talent.

Still idiotic. If you are speaking purely on his game being more balanced, then I fully agree. He has a better all-around game than them. But by no means is a better basketball player or more talented.


Don't try and pretend that prime KG wasn't an offensive force. He just wasn't as dominant on that end as Dirk.

Scoring points does not make you an offensive force. If you can be contained without double teams, and frequently fall apart in the clutch, you are not an offensive force. No one ever truly feared KG offensively. The years that his team made deep playoff runs, it was either Cassell, Spreewell, Pierce, or Allen handling the bulk of the scoring, because KG was more of a "junk" scorer, than a legit go-to option. Most of his offense came off transition, put-backs, and mid-range kick-out jumpers. KG rarely was known for attacking defenses successfully.


Dirk's O >>> KG''s

KG's D >> Dirk's

fify


Again, I'd still take Dirk to start a franchise because of his unguardable nature. It's easier to find a C who can rebound/defend than one who can be an elite scorer.

I agree. Dirk is also simply a better basketball player, which is also the reason you would start a franchise with him first too, not simply because of surrounding variables. Whether someone has more skill or has a more well rounded game, doesn't make you a better basketball player, while being a "one-trick pony" doesn't make you an inferior basketball player. Shaq was arguably a one trick pony, while Vlade Divac was both more well rounded and skilled. However, no one in their right mind would take Vlade over Shaq.

[FkLA]

Still idiotic. If you are speaking purely on his game being more balanced, then I fully agree. He has a better all-around game than them. But by no means is a better basketball player or more talented.



Scoring points does not make you an offensive force. If you can be contained without double teams, and frequently fall apart in the clutch, you are not an offensive force. No one ever truly feared KG offensively. The years that his team made deep playoff runs, it was either Cassell, Spreewell, Pierce, or Allen handling the bulk of the scoring, because KG was more of a "junk" scorer, than a legit go-to option. Most of his offense came off transition, put-backs, and mid-range kick-out jumpers. KG rarely was known for attacking defenses successfully.



fify



I agree. Dirk is also simply a better basketball player, which is also the reason you would start a franchise with him first too, not simply because of surrounding variables. Whether someone has more skill or has a more well rounded game, doesn't make you a better basketball player, while being a "one-trick pony" doesn't make you an inferior basketball player. Shaq was arguably a one trick pony, while Vlade Divac was both more well rounded and skilled. However, no one in their right mind would take Vlade over Shaq.

lol idiot

[Phillip]

lol idiot

lol kawhi
lol guaranteeing 1st team all nba
lol no all team selection

[Alex's foreskin]

A 40 year old Malone bodied KG and Duncan in one playoff run :lol

[Malik Hairston]

A 40 year old Malone bodied KG and Duncan in one playoff run :lol

True, but as a role player that didn't have to exert any energy on offense..

[DAF86]

Why does Dirk dick gets so sucked over here? KG > Dirk to whoever knows how to watch basketball besides fadeaways jumpers.

[lefty]

:lol Dirk
:lol tall jump shooter
:lol thats all folks

[Phillip]

Why does Dirk dick gets so sucked over here? KG > Dirk to whoever knows how to watch basketball besides fadeaways jumpers.

clearly you don't watch basketball

[DAF86]

clearly you don't watch basketball

Sup? Mr Garrison called, said you are a faggot.

[TDfan2007]

A 40 year old Malone bodied KG and Duncan in one playoff run :lol

Are we pretending that Duncan wasn't doubled incessantly the for the last 4 games of that series? Once Phil figured out that Tony couldn't do anything other than score in the paint and that Turkoglu was a choker, the series was over.

[TDfan2007]

clearly you don't watch basketball

Clearly you don't understand that basketball is a 2 way sport. KG was one of the best defensive bigs of all time who STILL gave you 20+ points and 5 assists. He was an excellent passer, great mid range shooter, and had a solid faceup game.

Lol arguing with you about Dirk vs. KG is like arguing with a Kobe fan that LeBron is better than Kobe. You only seem interested in one part of the game, scoring.

[Clipper Nation]

Why does Dirk dick gets so sucked over here? KG > Dirk to whoever knows how to watch basketball besides fadeaways jumpers.
:lol KG was the Kevin Scrub statpadder of his era. Ray Allen carried him to a ring, broke back belly draggin'.

[baseline bum]

Why does Dirk dick gets so sucked over here? KG > Dirk to whoever knows how to watch basketball besides fadeaways jumpers.

Because he carried a team with no second star to a title in a brutal run.

[Phillip]

Clearly you don't understand that basketball is a 2 way sport. KG was one of the best defensive bigs of all time who STILL gave you 20+ points and 5 assists. He was an excellent passer, great mid range shooter, and had a solid faceup game.

Lol arguing with you about Dirk vs. KG is like arguing with a Kobe fan that LeBron is better than Kobe. You only seem interested in one part of the game, scoring.

Incorrect. Anyone with a brain knows KG was a stat padder who was a mediocre offensive force for a "superstar" player.

Also, while balance is key, fact is, if there was one aspect of the game that is more important than the rest, scoring is it.

[daslicer]

A 40 year old Malone bodied KG and Duncan in one playoff run :lol

That series was a handicap matchup for Duncan. It was Duncan vs a tag team of Malone and Shaq. Malone exerted all his energy on defense along with getting help from Shaq to double team Duncan while Duncan had to exert his energy to guard Shaq since Rasho couldn't do it in the series along with being the anchor on offense and defense.

[DMC]

KG isn't worthy of such discussion. He wasn't even the best PF in the game while he was playing.

[TDfan2007]

So...Dirk vs KG aside, where do Malone and Barkley fit in?

IMO
1) KG
2) Malone
3) Dirk
4) Barkley

But honestly I feel like these guys are all interchangeable.

[DMC]

Malone
Barkley
Dirk
KG

For talent and effectiveness in RS

Dirk
KG
Malone
Barkley

For ability to see it through

Dirk ahead of KG just due to the "I care too much" crying that KG did.

[TDfan2007]

Incorrect. Anyone with a brain knows KG was a stat padder who was a mediocre offensive force for a "superstar" player.

Also, while balance is key, fact is, if there was one aspect of the game that is more important than the rest, scoring is it.

Agreed that scoring is the most important, but I disagree that KG was a stat padder. He just didn't have that killer instinct on offense that great scorers did. He was too unselfish andon't maybe unwilling to be the guy as well

[Arcadian]

http://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/wallpaper_kg_mvp_800_0304.jpg

[DAF86]

Because he carried a team with no second star to a title in a brutal run.

Dirk's 2011 run was impressive no doubt but it's one year and that supporting cast was highly underrated. That Mavs team had Tyson which was the equivalent to Dirk on the defensive end plus 3 other great defenders (Kidd, Stevenson and Marion) on the starting line-up to make up for Dirk's shortcomings on the defensive end and on the other side of the ball they got hot at the right time. Let's not forget that while Dirk was shooting 40% from the field against the Heat the rest of the guys were raining threes. They had a top 2 coach too, tbh.

[Phillip]

He just didn't have that killer instinct on offense that great scorers did. He was too unselfish andon't maybe unwilling to be the guy as well

That's a pretty huge problem, and the reason why KG is clearly an inferior basketball player to Dirk.

[Phillip]

Dirk's 2011 run was impressive no doubt but it's one year and that supporting cast was highly underrated. That Mavs team had Tyson which was the equivalent to Dirk on the defensive end plus 3 other great defenders (Kidd, Stevenson and Marion) on the starting line-up to make up for Dirk's shortcomings on the defensive end and on the other side of the ball they got hot at the right time. Let's not forget that while Dirk was shooting 40% from the field against the Heat the rest of the guys were raining threes. They had a top 2 coach too, tbh.

The way you describe the Mavs, they must be among the 3 greatest teams of all time. That supporting cast sounds 100% flawless by your description. Great analysis :td

[DAF86]

Drik's championship run gets overrated and KG's gets underrated, tbh.

[DAF86]

The way you describe the Mavs, they must be among the 3 greatest teams of all time. That supporting cast sounds 100% flawless by your description. Great analysis :td

-Wasn't Tyson the equivalent to Dirk on the defensive end?
-Weren't all the Mavs regular starters great defenders except Dirk?
-Didn't they got hot at the right time?
-Wasn't Carlisle a top 2, maybe even the best coach on the NBA at that time?

Tell me where I'm wrong.

[Alex's foreskin]

:lol KG was the Kevin Scrub statpadder of his era. Ray Allen carried him to a ring, broke back belly draggin'.

Funny you say that though Allen's biggest shot came carrying LeBron to a ring, faggot.

[Phillip]

-Wasn't Tyson the equivalent to Dirk on the defensive end?

No, but it certainly was a huge part. His defense was quite good, but all season long, he was known for getting thashed by any good big man, whether it was Dwight, Pau, Timmy, Randolph, or Bynum. But he was by no means a defensive equivalent. That would be selling Dirk's offense quite short.


-Weren't all the Mavs regular starters great defenders except Dirk?

No, Marion and Chandler were great defenders. Kidd had some good moments against Kobe and Durant, but frequently got his age exposed. Stevenson was decent, but not great by any means.


-Didn't they got hot at the right time?

Were they hot? Or did they perhaps regain their early season chemistry? Don't forget that they played at an extremely high level for the first half of the season, until all the injuries hit. They were on pace I believe to win around 65 games until the injuries killed everything.


-Wasn't Carlisle a top 2, maybe even the best coach on the NBA at that time?

I agree he was.


Tell me where I'm wrong.

What is wrong is to only mentioned the good things the supporting cast did, and absolutely none of their shortcomings, with the sole purpose of dismissing Dirk's run. You can't even begin to claim that you have an objective view of this matter without looking like the faggot you are.

[DAF86]

No, but it certainly was a huge part. His defense was quite good, but all season long, he was known for getting thashed by any good big man, whether it was Dwight, Pau, Timmy, Randolph, or Bynum. But he was by no means a defensive equivalent. That would be selling Dirk's offense quite short.



No, Marion and Chandler were great defenders. Kidd had some good moments against Kobe and Durant, but frequently got his age exposed. Stevenson was decent, but not great by any means.



Were they hot? Or did they perhaps regain their early season chemistry? Don't forget that they played at an extremely high level for the first half of the season, until all the injuries hit. They were on pace I believe to win around 65 games until the injuries killed everything.



I agree he was.



What is wrong is to only mentioned the good things the supporting cast did, and absolutely none of their shortcomings, with the sole purpose of dismissing Dirk's run. You can't even begin to claim that you have an objective view of this matter without looking like the faggot you are.

Didn't I say Dirk's run was impressive a couple of post ago? It was, don't get me wrong but everytime someone thinks of that run thinks of Dirk carrying a bunch of scrubs to a title when that's very far from the truth. I'm pretty sure very few remember how sub-par Dirk was on the finals that year.

[monosylab1k]

Didn't I say Dirk's run was impressive a couple of post ago? It was, don't get me wrong but everytime someone thinks of that run thinks of Dirk carrying a bunch of scrubs to a title when that's very far from the truth. I'm pretty sure very few remember how sub-par Dirk was on the finals that year.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4Li-iT8QU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPQkmD6RpF8

:cry so incredibly sub-par.

[Clipper Nation]

Funny you say that though Allen's biggest shot came carrying LeBron to a ring, faggot.
:lol Duncan making you retire that KobeOwnsDuncan username
:lol Ray's shot means nothing without LeBron's clutch three on the previous possession

[baseline bum]

Drik's championship run gets overrated and KG's gets underrated, tbh.

Dirk's title run included

1. A Blazers team who was pretty tough for a first round matchup
2. The Gasol/Bynum/Bryant Lakers, 2x defending champions who never looked competitive in the series after Game 1
3. The Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder, took em out in 5
4. The Heat with Wade still in prime form. Their PG play and bench was horrible, but Wade's a first ballot Hall of Famer and he was at his absolute prime that year, and so was James.

I have been watching the game religiously since the mid 80s and the only harder title run I have seen was Houston's in 1995. It's true he had good defenders around him and lots of three point shooting, so but did Olajuwon, so did Duncan, so did Shaq when they won titles. Winning a title as an undisputed #1 option, especially against the competition he faced, just puts him on a higher level than Garnett, Barkley, and Malone to me. And then the Game 2 comeback in Miami. I fucking hated the Mavericks at the time and even I was going absolutely nuts watching that, especially when he drilled that three with about 20 seconds left.

[baseline bum]

Can't have it both ways DAF. One of Duncan's two or three greatest highlights is destroying the Shaq/Kobe 3x defending champion Lakers with a similar supporting cast to what Nowitzki had when he destroyed that Lakers team with one of the nastiest frontlines I have ever seen and then Kobe too.

[DAF86]

Dirk's title run included

1. A Blazers team who was pretty tough for a first round matchup
2. The Gasol/Bynum/Bryant Lakers, 2x defending champions who never looked competitive in the series after Game 1
3. The Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder, took em out in 5
4. The Heat with Wade still in prime form. Their PG play and bench was horrible, but Wade's a first ballot Hall of Famer and he was at his absolute prime that year, and so was James.

I have been watching the game religiously since the mid 80s and the only harder title run I have seen was Houston's in 1995. It's true he had good defenders around him and lots of three point shooting, so but did Olajuwon, so did Duncan, so did Shaq when they won titles. Winning a title as an undisputed #1 option, especially against the competition he faced, just puts him on a higher level than Garnett, Barkley, and Malone to me. And then the Game 2 comeback in Miami. I fucking hated the Mavericks at the time and even I was going absolutely nuts watching that, especially when he drilled that three with about 20 seconds left.

I'm not talking about difficulty of oppenents. I'm talking about Dirks and KGs individual runs. People say Dirk carried scrubs to a championship when that's not true and people say that KG was carried by Pierce and Allen when Garnett was head and shoulders above any other Celtic on that run.

[Alex's foreskin]

:lol Duncan making you retire that KobeOwnsDuncan username
:lol Ray's shot means nothing without LeBron's clutch three on the previous possession

Ray doesn't make that shot and LeBron is light another. MVPRay carrying LeChoke

[Clipper Nation]

Ray doesn't make that shot and LeBron is light another. MVPRay carrying LeChoke
LeBron doesn't make that three on the prior possession, and he's light another.

LeBron doesn't dominate Game 7, and he's light another.

Keep pretending it was all Ray Allen when that was so clearly not the case to anyone who actually watched the game, though :tu

[Alex's foreskin]

LeBron doesn't make that three on the prior possession, and he's light another.

LeBron doesn't dominate Game 7, and he's light another.

Keep pretending it was all Ray Allen when that was so clearly not the case to anyone who actually watched the game, though :tu

And it was LeBron who bricked the game tying 3 with seconds left in the biggest moment of his career. Alpha Ray saving LeBeta. No matter what else LeBron does or doesn't do in the finals, his legacy will be Ray Allen's face :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

And it was LeBron who bricked the game tying 3 with seconds left in the biggest moment of his career. Alpha Ray saying LeBeta. No matter what else LeBron does or doesn't do in the finals, his legacy will be Ray Allen's face :lmao
Nope. His legacy is sending Durant crying to his mommy in 2012, coming up clutch in Game 6 and dominating Game 7 in 2013, and being one of the top 5 players of all time.

Meanwhile, Kirby's legacy is getting outplayed by Austin Croshere and Tayshaun Prince in the Finals and missing the playoffs in his prime :lmao

[Alex's foreskin]

Nope. His legacy is sending Durant crying to his mommy in 2012, coming up clutch in Game 6 and dominating Game 7 in 2013, and being one of the top 5 players of all time.

Meanwhile, Kirby's legacy is getting outplayed by Austin Croshere and Tayshaun Prince in the Finals and missing the playoffs in his prime :lmao
Nope. His legacy is Ray Allen and having a losing record in the finals :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Nope. His legacy is Ray Allen and having a losing record in the finals :lmao
:lmao Getting upstaged by this guy:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bddw5Nbi1qzrf2zo1_1280.jpg

[Alex's foreskin]

How many top 10 players have a losing record in the finals? :rollin

[FkLA]

Clearly you don't understand that basketball is a 2 way sport. KG was one of the best defensive bigs of all time who STILL gave you 20+ points and 5 assists. He was an excellent passer, great mid range shooter, and had a solid faceup game.

Lol arguing with you about Dirk vs. KG is like arguing with a Kobe fan that LeBron is better than Kobe. You only seem interested in one part of the game, scoring.

http://media.tumblr.com/d7f9f0c63d922f6da5c00cdb6fa1a667/tumblr_inline_nkbe5dJ8t71qfwhgs.gif


Because he carried a team with no second star to a title in a brutal run.

JET nutted up that postseason. He may not have been a big name #2 but he played like one during that run. It's not like in '03 where the second highest scorer after TD couldn't even hit 15 ppg and shot 40% from the field. Not to mention the other side, where Dirk was the worst defender in the starting line-up. He had a shit load of help there.

[Franklin]

There's no argument that KG is the better all-round player but the success is only made when you have the right players at the right time imho. If the Mavs hadn't acquired TC in 2010 the Mavs would've been still free of a ring. KG was unlucky because he joined a shitty franchise which didn't give a shit about winning, and the same fate would've belonged to Dirk as well had he stayed in Milwaukee imho. Give you prime Dirk and prime KG to play 1on1 then I guess KG would win out 8 out of 10 times, but in terms of career, with loyalty, popularity and success all considered, Dirk is definitely the one that stands out of all the 4 names mentioned in OP tbh.

[FkLA]

All throughout the 2000s TD and KG were widely considered the best PFs in the game. KG won a title in '08 and that cemented that that much more.

Dirk wins one in '11 and suddenly people want to not only place him in the same class but have him jump KG? WTF kinda logic is that. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

TD
KG
Dirk

after that you have losers like Malone and Barkley

[TD 21]

All throughout the 2000s TD and KG were widely considered the best PFs in the game. KG won a title in '08 and that cemented that that much more.

Dirk wins one in '11 and suddenly people want to not only place him in the same class but have him jump KG? WTF kinda logic is that. :lol

I've always said this. Outside of Bryant, no one has benefited more from revisionist history than Nowitzki.

I still got it: Malone, Garnett, Barkley, Nowitzki.

[Franklin]

All throughout the 2000s TD and KG were widely considered the best PFs in the game. KG won a title in '08 and that cemented that that much more.

Dirk wins one in '11 and suddenly people want to not only place him in the same class but have him jump KG? WTF kinda logic is that. :lol
KG had to team up two prime superstars with win a title though, while the best teammates Dirk has ever had were marginal all stars like JET and Caron Butler, or superstars in their twilight like Jason Kidd. I ain't gonna argue that the prime Dirk would beat KG one on one any day of the week, because in terms of overall basketball ability KG was probably the better one, but saying that KG had a more successful career than Dirk's is simply laughable tbh.

[TDfan2007]

All throughout the 2000s TD and KG were widely considered the best PFs in the game. KG won a title in '08 and that cemented that that much more.

Dirk wins one in '11 and suddenly people want to not only place him in the same class but have him jump KG? WTF kinda logic is that. :lol

Revisionist history...tbh. I think it's more a characteristic of this board/Mavs fans though. Most people I talk to outside of here have KG over Dirk.

[TDfan2007]

KG had to team up two prime superstars with win a title though, while the best teammates Dirk has ever had were marginal all stars like JET and Caron Butler, or superstars in their twilight like Jason Kidd. I ain't gonna argue that the prime Dirk would beat KG one on one any day of the week, because in terms of overall basketball ability KG was probably the better one, but saying that KG had a more successful career than Dirk's is simply laughable tbh.

Both guys are pretty similar success-wise, with a slight nod to Dirk. KG had a great run in 04, but got beaten by a Lakers superteam that not even Timmy could beat. Dirk had a similarly awesome run in 2006, then proceeded to lose to the Heatrefs. Both guys won titles as the best players of their respective teams, and while KG did it with clearly more help than Dirk, I would be careful to overstate Ray Allen's impact on that team. He was no longer the same level of player he was when he played for the Bucks/Sonics and had begun to decline. Just look at his numbers from that postseason. Pierce was great though.

[FkLA]

KG had to team up two prime superstars with win a title though, while the best teammates Dirk has ever had were marginal all stars like JET and Caron Butler, or superstars in their twilight like Jason Kidd. I ain't gonna argue that the prime Dirk would beat KG one on one any day of the week, because in terms of overall basketball ability KG was probably the better one, but saying that KG had a more successful career than Dirk's is simply laughable tbh.

What's this superstar hyperbole BS? Allen and Pierce were all-star caliber players but they weren't superstars. They weren't 1st Team All-NBA guys or in contention for MVP. Pierce was clutch but KG was the only true superstar out of the bunch. I'll concede the fact that Dirk's title run was more impressive bc KG had more help, but then again Dirk's run is also more impressive than both of LeBron's runs since he had Wade+Bosh. That doesn't magically make Dirk the better basketball player though. :lol

[FkLA]

Also why is it that when you compare the title runs you look at supporting casts but when you talk about overall success you don't look at their supporting casts in their other years? It's not hard to see that KG had a lot less to work with until he was traded to Boston. I'm not going to call Dirk the better player simply bc KG was stuck in Minny.

[Franklin]

What's this superstar hyperbole BS? Allen and Pierce were all-star caliber players but they weren't superstars. They weren't 1st Team All-NBA guys or in contention for MVP. Pierce was clutch but KG was the only true superstar out of the bunch. I'll concede the fact that Dirk's title run was more impressive bc KG had more help, but then again Dirk's run is also more impressive than both of LeBron's runs since he had Wade+Bosh. That doesn't magically make Dirk the better basketball player though. :lol
I never said Dirk was better as a basketball player than KG, if you let them play one on one Dirk would probably get owned. But just like someone else said above, bigs who can shoot so gracefully and be your leading scorer are rare talents compared to bigs whose biggest strengths are defense and rebounding imho. If we had even the prime KG in 2011 I doubt we could've won the title that year tbh, Dirk was the right player for us and I'm glad that we built a successful team around him that won at least one NBA championship for the city of Dallas. KG, albeit better as a player all-round, will not be remembered at the same height as Dirk imho. You're better, but you're not guaranteed more success than others, such is life tbh.

[FkLA]

I never said Dirk was better as a basketball player than KG, if you let them play one on one Dirk would probably get owned. But just like someone else said above, bigs who can shoot so gracefully and be your leading scorer are rare talents compared to bigs whose biggest strengths are defense and rebounding imho. If we had even the prime KG in 2011 I doubt we could've won the title that year tbh, Dirk was the right player for us and I'm glad that we built a successful team around him that won at least one NBA championship for the city of Dallas. KG, albeit better as a player all-round, will not be remembered at the same height as Dirk imho. You're better, but you're not guaranteed more success than others, such is life tbh.

And the Cs defense falls apart if you switch out KG for a prime Dirk. I'm also pretty sure that, outside of mavfans & ST, KG is already remembered at a higher height than Dirk tbh.

[100%duncan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4Li-iT8QU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPQkmD6RpF8

:cry so incredibly sub-par.

:worthy: only non-spur championship run that I enjoyed

[FkLA]

^40% is 40%, JET had his moments too.

[midnightpulp]

I've always said this. Outside of Bryant, no one has benefited more from revisionist history than Nowitzki.

I still got it: Malone, Garnett, Barkley, Nowitzki.

He shouldn't even be in this conversation. I understand Barkley. But his laziness (admittedly partied during the '93 Finals) and mediocre Game 6 performance in the '93 Finals (shot 7-18 for 21 points in a game they lost by 1) keeps him out of GOAT PF conversation. Too many Barkley and Malone apologists use the, "But they had to face Jordan :cry" excuse, when it was actually more to due to their underperforming in key games/situations rather than Jordan just going God mode every single game.

[m>s]

This is why the nba forum sucks

[FkLA]

He shouldn't even be in this conversation. I understand Barkley. But his laziness (admittedly partied during the '93 Finals) and mediocre Game 6 performance in the '93 Finals (shot 7-18 for 21 points in a game they lost by 1) keeps him out of GOAT PF conversation. Too many Barkley and Malone apologists use the, "But they had to face Jordan :cry" excuse, when it was actually more to due to their underperforming in key games/situations rather than Jordan just going God mode every single game.

Dirk shot like 39% for the entire '11 Finals ...

[m>s]

Played with the flu and garnered so much defensive attention that other guys were able to knock down open shots

they tried to make him beat them with his passing like golden state did. Well guess what, he learned a thing or two since then and he did just that.

[midnightpulp]

Dirk shot like 39% for the entire '11 Finals ...

He shot .416. Averaged 26 points and 9.7 boards a game as well. He was also a ridiculous .978 from the line, going 45/46 over the series. Even though his raw FG% was rather low, he was overall efficient. He also played some damn good defense on Bosh. He also scored 9 straight points to close the 4th quarter in game 2, in which the Mavs came back from 15 down with 6 minutes left.

[FkLA]

He shot .416. Averaged 26 points and 9.7 boards a game as well. He was also a ridiculous .978 from the line, going 45/46 over the series. Even though his raw FG% was rather low, he was overall efficient. He also played some damn good defense on Bosh. He also scored 9 straight points to close the 4th quarter in game 2, in which the Mavs came back from 15 down with 6 minutes left.

And Barkley averaged 27.3 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 spg on 47.6% from the field. That didn't stop you from punishing him for one poor game. If instead of choking LeBron averages 41/8.5/6.3 like MJ did in '93, Dirk would be ringless as well. Dirk didn't simply win because he's more of a winner or a better player than Barkley.

[da_suns_fan]

All four are great.

If a college player was billed as the next Chris Webber you would say "okay..good offensive big man who can also pass".

If a college player was billed as the next Malone, Barkley, Dirk or KG you would say "yeah right".

[FkLA]

Played with the flu and garnered so much defensive attention that other guys were able to knock down open shots

they tried to make him beat them with his passing like golden state did. Well guess what, he learned a thing or two since then and he did just that.

All the greats garner attention and get role players open shots, that's nothing new. Not all shoot 41% despite all the attention. Most also make an impact on the defensive end. That's why Dirk slides down to the #4 or #5 spot in the PF GOAT list.

[midnightpulp]

And Barkley averaged 27.3 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 spg on 47.6% from the field. That didn't stop you from punishing him for one poor game. If instead of choking LeBron averages 41/8.5/6.3 like MJ did in '93, Dirk would be ringless as well. Dirk didn't simply win because he's more of a winner or a better player than Barkley.

Look at the individual box scores for the series. Barkley was below his standards in many key games in the series (Game 1: 9-25, Game 3, 9-20, outplayed by both KJ and Dan Marjerle. Game 5, saved by Richard Dumas. And in Game 6, he was 7-18, as mentioned). It's also worth mentioning that '93 was a different era. Early 90's basketball was still in the vein of 80's basketball, with regards to pace and defense. I don't think Jordan averages those numbers on that efficiency in 2011. Wade was also pretty damn good in the 2011 Finals (one of the best Finals performances in losing effort that I can remember) and the Mavs still won it.

Let's also not forget Dirk's series against OKC. 32ppg on .557 shooting. The often cited Terry shot only 37%.

Then in '95, Barkley's team blows a 2-0 lead to the Rockets in the WCSF. Barkley was below his averages for the series and scored only 18 points on 7-16 shooting in Game 7 of the series, a game which the Suns lost by 1. (In the previous home closeout game [game 5], Barkley shot 8-22 for 17 points. A game that went to OT).

If Barkley steps up in either of those games, he likely has a ring. No one to blame but himself. Kevin Johnson tried to drag him to the Finals, but Barkley wasn't along for the ride.

[midnightpulp]

I also forgot the Barkley's Suns blew a 2-0 lead the previous year, as well :lol

And again, Barkley's stats for the series were below standard and he was terrible in the two home games where the Suns could've put a stranglehold on the series.

[Thread]

^All is well that ends well. My O & 47 has held up, Barkley remained ringless, Curry didn't provide his favor here, you didn't get your repeat, The Bag stays in Texas, Pau ended up ass over teacup|||The Relent took place + Paul & How couldn't cut the mustard.

[midnightpulp]

^All is well that ends well. My O & 47 has held up, Barkley remained ringless, Curry didn't provide his favor here, you didn't get your repeat, The Bag stays in Texas, Pau ended up ass over teacup|||The Relent took place + Paul & How couldn't cut the mustard.

And your Cavs are about to scratch.

"You look beautiful, Cub. Just like a baby. All pink and powdered up."

- Eddie Felson

[Thread]

And your Cavs are about to scratch.

"You look beautiful, Cub. Just like a baby. All pink and powdered up."

- Eddie Felson

It's my Cleveland, but, it ain't my Cavs.

[Phillip]

If instead of choking LeBron averages 41/8.5/6.3 like MJ did in '93, Dirk would be ringless as well.

If Patrick Ewing, Jason Kidd, Rip Hamilton and Lebron all average 41/8.5/6.3 like MJ did in '93, Timmy would be ringless as well.

Great line of reasoning :td

[TD 21]

He shouldn't even be in this conversation. I understand Barkley. But his laziness (admittedly partied during the '93 Finals) and mediocre Game 6 performance in the '93 Finals (shot 7-18 for 21 points in a game they lost by 1) keeps him out of GOAT PF conversation. Too many Barkley and Malone apologists use the, "But they had to face Jordan :cry" excuse, when it was actually more to due to their underperforming in key games/situations rather than Jordan just going God mode every single game.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard said on this board, which is saying something. I know he's widely despised and that most people are unable to separate that, but there is no credible basis for saying he shouldn't be in the conversation with Garnett, Barkley and Nowitzki.

[Pelicans78]

Have they surpassed Malone and Barkley, tbh? Either of them? Both?

Not KG. Maybe Dirk, but he couldn't defend either one of them. KG could defend Malone, but Barkley would have punished him physically.

[Seventyniner]

KG has always reminded me of David Robinson in terms of otherworldly production (in terms of advanced stats) and consistent crap for supporting casts. Neither was good enough to pull a scrub team past the conference finals.

It's all opinion anyway, but I have it as KG, Dirk, Malone, Barkley.

[midnightpulp]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard said on this board, which is saying something. I know he's widely despised and that most people are unable to separate that, but there is no credible basis for saying he shouldn't be in the conversation with Garnett, Barkley and Nowitzki.

You're making the claim. Prove it, with relevant stats, data, and analysis.

I'll start out by saying (which has been illustrated by statistics) that Karl Malone has the biggest dropoff from regular season to post season play among star players.

http://s5.postimg.org/rcwjg880n/RS_PO_BPM_differentials_worst.png

[Sean Cagney]

Terry was a goddamned beast from the arc, and that nigga had the big brass balls to tattoo the LOB trophy on his fucking arm the prior off season. That's some alpha shit.
I cant stand him but you are right, he was on a mission that year.

[diego]

Dirk's title run included

1. A Blazers team who was pretty tough for a first round matchup
2. The Gasol/Bynum/Bryant Lakers, 2x defending champions who never looked competitive in the series after Game 1
3. The Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder, took em out in 5
4. The Heat with Wade still in prime form. Their PG play and bench was horrible, but Wade's a first ballot Hall of Famer and he was at his absolute prime that year, and so was James.


Agreed on Heat and Lakers being tough competition. But OKC, harden, WB and durant were 22 years old playing in their first WCF, only player with deep playoff experience were perkins and mohammed, scott brooks hadn't even coached 20 playoff games when that series started. Is it really reasonable to consider that a big win?? The blazers were a decent team, but were they better than last years blazers? Remember Roy was already a shell of himself, that team was basically aldridge plus role players, nothing to write home about IMO.

IMO 2011 was 2007 in reverse- in 07 the mavs were 1st seed and favorites but lost in the first round, opening the door for the spurs to get good matchups en route to the title. 2011 spurs lost as 1st seed and opened up the mavs to good matchups, just as the mavs would have been favored in 07 the spurs would have been favored in 11, much tougher matchups than the spurs - jazz wcf of 2007 / mavs - okc wcf of 2011.

[Phillip]

IMO 2011 was 2007 in reverse- in 07 the mavs were 1st seed and favorites but lost in the first round, opening the door for the spurs to get good matchups en route to the title. 2011 spurs lost as 1st seed and opened up the mavs to good matchups, just as the mavs would have been favored in 07 the spurs would have been favored in 11, much tougher matchups than the spurs - jazz wcf of 2007 / mavs - okc wcf of 2011.

Only similarities are that one team won and the other team lost in the 1st round as the 1st seed.

Mavs would have destroyed Spurs in 2007.

Mavs also would have destroyed Spurs in 2011.

Mavs faced tougher competition in 2011.

[DAF86]

Only similarities are that one team won and the other team lost in the 1st round as the 1st seed.

Mavs would have destroyed Spurs in 2007.

Mavs also would have destroyed Spurs in 2011.

Mavs faced tougher competition in 2011.

Manu and the Spurs owned the Mavs in the 2010/2011 season, as they also owned them in the playoffs the prior postseason.

lol "Would have destroyed"

Fucking dumb homer faggot.

[Phillip]

Manu and the Spurs owned the Mavs in the 2010/2011 season

lol "owned", when key Mavs players were injured in all 3 Spurs wins that seasons.


as they also owned them in the playoffs the prior postseason

Meaningless. lol swept by phoenix

[ambchang]

It's a tough one, and depends of how you rank them.

If you want to build a championship team:
Dirk
KG
Barkley
Malone

If you are strictly talking about a basketball player:
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Malone

If you are talking about carrying an offense:
Dirk
Barkley
Malone
KG

If you are talking about manning the defense:
KG



Malone




Dirk
Barkley

If you are talking about hunting little Mexican girls:
Malone

If you are talking about finishing with a top flight PG:
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Garnett

For me, I'd go with the championship criteria:
Dirk
KG
Barkley
Malone

It's rare to find one single player who can really carry an entire offense, and easier to surround him with role players who can defend, nail three pointers, pass, and such as opposed to getting an all-arounder like Garnett, and flank him with a great scorer who can also defend (Pierce).

[TD 21]

You're making the claim. Prove it, with relevant stats, data, and analysis.

I'll start out by saying (which has been illustrated by statistics) that Karl Malone has the biggest dropoff from regular season to post season play among star players.

http://s5.postimg.org/rcwjg880n/RS_PO_BPM_differentials_worst.png

You're the one making the bold proclamation, so it's on you to "prove it".

I'm well aware of his drop off in the playoffs and obviously this is what keeps him out of the top ten all time discussion . . . but out of a discussion with Barkley, Nowitzki and Garnett? Ridiculous.