PTR: Mills VS Joseph Debate

[BillMc]

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/5/23/8649869/nba-free-agency-2015-spurs-cory-joseph-patty-mills

Michael Erler and Jesus Gomez will be discussing the status of the Spurs' upcoming free agents. Cory Joseph is the topic of this conversation and things get heated. Enjoy!

Jesus Gomez
I know we are going to disagree a lot in this one, so let's start with something simple. Hypothetical: forget about contracts. Do you want Mills or Joseph as the Spurs (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs)' backup point guard for the next three years?

Michael Erler
Joseph.

Jesus Gomez
Not even a moment of hesitation.

Michael Erler
I get why fans would prefer Mills. But for reasonable analysts who actually study the numbers and leave the emotion out of it, it genuinely mystifies me that it's even a question. One guy is literally better at EVERYTHING than the other guy, except for shooting threes. That is literally the only skill Mills has over him, and even that's not by as big of a margin as people make it out to be.
Joseph did shoot a better percentage than him from downtown last year, but because Mills had a hot final week, that's all anybody remembers.
Plus, Joseph has shown a linear improvement in every facet of his game from year to year, and he's three years younger. There is no reason to think he won't keep improving. He's the second-best or best mid-range shooter on the team, depending on how you feel about Leonard. He made 45.3 percent of his mid-range jumpers last year.
But the killer stat for me, the one that sells me on him, is 39.2 percent of his field goal attempts came at the rim. That's better than any Spur except for Splitter, Baynes and Ayres.
He knows how to penetrate, how to get to the rim and finish. He draws fouls at twice the rate of Mills. He's a better playmaker and a better defender.
And Mills needs another point guard on the floor to even be able to play. Joseph does not.
So in a way, it's not even fair to compare them. One is a point guard. One is a shooting guard.

Jesus Gomez
Here's the thing: three-point shooting is really, really important. Much more important than mid-range shooting or rebounding from your point guard.

Michael Erler
I'm just asking... would you feel the way you do about Mills if the seven games he had against the Clippers (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/los-angeles-clippers) came in the middle of January and his playoff stats were more in line with his regular season numbers?
Or are you suffering from recency bias and championship hero bias?

Jesus Gomez
Almost like the opposite of recency bias. I'm thinking about his play from last season. Because he was terrific then. Let's not forget he was out until December with injury this year.

Michael Erler
I just don't feel like Mills' long-term success is sustainable. He takes very bad shots early in the shot clock. Gary Neal (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/112006/gary-neal) shots. He's Neal with better PR, basically.

Jesus Gomez
Mills can dribble and pressure other guards. If anything, he's a better Neal.

Michael Erler
He can dribble, but he cannot penetrate. How many times did we see him just dribble aimlessly against some backup point guard, completely unable to cross him up, and have to settle for either a 28-footer at the buzzer or a pass to someone else for a 28-footer at the buzzer?

Jesus Gomez
You don't want him driving, you want him shooting.

Michael Erler
He needs daylight to shoot. He cannot create it for himself.

Jesus Gomez
His assisted field goal numbers prove you wrong.
Anyway, I have this theory. Mills is Bonner, Joseph is every other big man without a three-pointer the Spurs have used since Bonner joined the team.

Everyone always complained that all Bonner could do was shoot threes while Insert Other Big was a better rebounder and marginally better defender. Yet up until last season, the team was always better with Bonner on the court, provided his minutes were reasonable. That's how important his shooting was.

Michael Erler
What Mills and Bonner have in common is Manu made both, more or less. I have my doubts either can succeed without him.
If Ginobili was playing three more years, I'd prefer Mills. With him retiring or at most playing one last season at like 18 minutes for 65 games, give me Joseph.

Jesus Gomez
Here's where I stand: Mills has one skill that is super important. Joseph is good at many things that are less important. If you want to argue Joseph is the better player, I might agree with you. But I think even without Manu I'd rather have a shooter like Mills on the roster than a guy like Joseph. You can get someone who does what Cory does as your third PG for cheap. A shooter like Mills is more rare.

Michael Erler
He's a 6'0 shooting guard, Jesus. What's even more rare than a guy who makes threes are shooting guards who can play the point, which is what you need for Mills to work.

Jesus Gomez
He's a good 6'0 shooting guard. And if Kawhi ever becomes the dominant force he's suppose to become, you want guys who can play off the ball.

Michael Erler
And when Leonard is on the bench, I guess you hand the offense to Kyle Anderson (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/246160/kyle-anderson)?

Jesus Gomez
Sure, if he's good enough. Or any other shot creator you can get.

Michael Erler
I think Joseph has more of a future, but I could be wrong. Maybe he'll always be a good third point guard.
I just think he brings more to the table than Mills does. Pop always goes on and on about the things he does that don't show up in the box score, and then in money time he benches him and plays Mills.

Jesus Gomez
BECAUSE YOU WANT MILLS IN THERE WHEN IT COUNTS, NOT HUSTLE GUY WITH NO SHOT!

Michael Erler
The guy who shot 45.3 from midrange and a better percentage from downtown than Mills has no shot. He shot above 50 percent last year. Not too many guards did that. And his eFG was only 50 points higher than Mills.

Jesus Gomez
Because he only shoots when he's wiiiiide open.

Michael Erler
Which Mills should try sometime.
Jesus Gomez
No, he shouldn't.

Michael Erler
Shooting when open is ideal.

Jesus Gomez
Sometimes that's not an option. That's why you play Mills over Joseph in big moments.

Michael Erler
And that "sometimes" isn't when there's 17 seconds to go on a shot clock

Jesus Gomez
I have a feeling we are not going to agree on this.

Michael Erler
And I have a feeling 90 percent of PtR will agree with you. Such is my lot in life.

Jesus Gomez
We'll test that theory with a poll. Also, you should try being right sometime. It's pretty great.

Michael Erler
I used 'em all up last year. None left.
My preference would be for the Spurs to re-sign Joseph, trade Mills and draft a two guard or a 6-4 or above combo guard.

Jesus Gomez
How high would you be willing to go when bringing back Joseph?

Michael Erler
What Mills makes now. Three years, 13 mil? Two years and an option?

Jesus Gomez
Sounds reasonable. I'm for either letting Cory walk or bringing him back for cheap as a third point guard. You'd take him over Mills and now we are both angry at each other, like we expected to be after this particular conversation.

[RD2191]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

[apalisoc_9]

Keep Mills. tell Joseph thank you for being a good sport, unless he wants to stay...If he wants to stay, Keep him. He probably requested to be traded though or requested the spurs not to match.

[Raven]

i agree with everything the joseph guy said. Honestly, there is no comparison between the two, there actually is no comparison between joseph and parker either.

[Richie]

I think we should keep Joseph because he can do all the things we will need in a post-Manu world. Erler summed it up perfectly here:


If Ginobili was playing three more years, I'd prefer Mills. With him retiring or at most playing one last season at like 18 minutes for 65 games, give me Joseph.

He's right, Joseph is better at everything except off the dribble 3's, and Joseph is actually a very underrated 3 point shooter.

All else being equal I think it's a tough decision, but there's even more to it than that. We can probably get a first rounder for Mills, who is a proven playoff performer on a cheap deal for the next 2 years. In those terms it's a choice between Joseph + 1st rounder or Mills, which seems like an easy decision.

[DMC]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.
This has to be a system result. I've seen too many guys play timid for it to be an individual character trait. Timid guys don't make it to the NBA. Pop's system is one of sink or swim, and if you fuck up Pop benches you. That's enough to make guys try to paint by numbers when they enter the game, instead of allowing their own artistry to take over (which is what the Spurs need).

It's no doubt a delicate balancing act for Pop, and there are some casualties from it.

[DMC]

I think we should keep Joseph because he can do all the things we will need in a post-Manu world. Erler summed it up perfectly here:



He's right, Joseph is better at everything except off the dribble 3's, and Joseph is actually a very underrated 3 point shooter.

All else being equal I think it's a tough decision, but there's even more to it than that. We can probably get a first rounder for Mills, who is a proven playoff performer on a cheap deal for the next 2 years. In those terms it's a choice between Joseph + 1st rounder or Mills, which seems like an easy decision.

I don't think anyone else in the league who's not a Popciple (lol) wants Patty Mills. He's too small to guard anyone and he's a streaky chucker. He's a high energy guy and great team chemistry guy, but you need a team full of team guys instead of individual mercs, else Patty is just a side note. He'd have some moments like Neal but not much else.

[-21-]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

Are you Michael Erler tbh? :lol

Anyway, as much as I love Patty, if Manu is retiring then I'd understand keeping Cory over him. The only problem with Cojo as you said is his aggressiveness. Most of the time he's open, instead of taking an open 3 he opts to drive or pass. His % isn't that bad so I'm not sure why he's hesitant when it comes to shooting. Maybe Pop hasn't given him the green light.

[Silver&Black]

Jesus Gomez

Anyway, I have this theory. Mills is Bonner, Joseph is every other big man without a three-pointer the Spurs have used since Bonner joined the team.


:wow

[jeebus]

Spurs with CancerJo as main backup: spurms struggle during regular season, 1st round exit

Spurs with MVPatty as main backup: spurms win regular season title, rape playoff competition

[HEBsteaks]

I would say keep both as they both serve a big need. Manu wont be around forever so the 2nd unit will need someone to run the offense, and Cojo can do that. The problem with Cojo is the same with Kawhi and probably every young player on the team, they will always become soft and defer to the vets, mainly TP or Manu. If Cojo could find his happy place, I think he can be a beast.

Patty can play the Green role for the 2nd unit. While Pattys D isnt great, his hustle and pressure makes up for it.

Make Cojo the back up and tell him to control the offense and dont defer unless coach says so.

[RD2191]

This has to be a system result. I've seen too many guys play timid for it to be an individual character trait. Timid guys don't make it to the NBA. Pop's system is one of sink or swim, and if you fuck up Pop benches you. That's enough to make guys try to paint by numbers when they enter the game, instead of allowing their own artistry to take over (which is what the Spurs need).

It's no doubt a delicate balancing act for Pop, and there are some casualties from it.
The problem with Pop is that he isn't consistent. One small fuck up by Green/Tiago and they get shit on or benched immediately. On the other hand Parker and Mills can chuck away/screw up on defense and still play consistent minutes.

[dbestpro]

We still do not know who Joseph is. If given the green light would he flourish? He never has turnovers because he gives up the ball early. He does not make the other players better offensively, but these drawbacks actually may be more a result of Pop coaching him conservatively. I would like to see given free reign to see what he could do, and above all I would like to see him learn the pick, and roll. If he can function no better than what he currently presents, then Mills would be pg.

[tholdren]

The idiots on PTR are almost as bad as stephan a smith.

Heres the deal. If Cory was so good, why didnt he get ANY minutes in the last 3 games of the playoffs, EVEN with an injured Parker?

I like joseph, I hated him his first 2 years, but he has shown improvement, and I do think hes going to get better.

With that being said, PAtty has better stats in almost everything, including rebounding, steals, and assist percentage rates. Mills gets better in the playoffs, and while cory, had an ok run last year, THIS YEAR HE DIDNT HAVE AN ASSIST. How in the hell do you proclaim you have a better point when HE DOESNT RECORD AN ASSIST? Same thing last year, Cory had 9 assists in 17 games and 90 minutes. How does that happen? I dont know, but the shit that comes off PTR is amazing, and the site should be shut down immediately. clowns

[TheGreatYacht]

Spurs with CancerJo as main backup: spurms struggle during regular season, 1st round exit

Spurs with MVPatty as main backup: spurms win regular season title, rape playoff competition

[Mikeanaro]

MVPatty all the way.

[benstanfield]

Why can't it be both? If Manu really is retiring, play them both in the 2nd unit and let Cory guard whichever small Patty can't.

[Sean Cagney]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.
Mills was one of the few to keep them in games and actually show against the Clippers? He was hitting his threes and FT's and you don't know why Pop played him? I didn't get that part there. Cojo is okay but he would not have helped that series IMO, they needed a spark and scoring and Mills was one of the few hitting.

[RD2191]

Mills was one of the few to keep them in games and actually show against the Clippers? He was hitting his threes and FT's and you don't know why Pop played him? I didn't get that part there. Cojo is okay but he would not have helped that series IMO, they needed a spark and scoring and Mills was one of the few hitting.
our offense was fine against the clips. we needed defense in that series.

[Mugen]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

[Malik Hairston]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

:lol

[apalisoc_9]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

:lmao

[Sean Cagney]

our offense was fine against the clips. we needed defense in that series.

Really??? Tony was way off, Green and a few others were not hitting most of the series so we needed both O and D. Joseph I doubt turns the series man, they lose alot of scoring when he is in there and not aggressive. He is decent on D though. Patty and Beli our hottest shooters in the series from outside and saved us some games.

[RD2191]

Really??? Tony was way off, Green and a few others were not hitting most of the series so we needed both O and D. Joseph I doubt turns the series man, they lose alot of scoring when he is in there and not aggressive. He is decent on D though. Patty and Beli our hottest shooters in the series from outside and saved us some games.
not really, and if they saved us it's because we were down due to terrible defense in the first place. we scored plenty even in our losses. and cojo wouldn't of been a game changer but his defense was needed on cp3. paul was torching parker and mills and don't forget the game austin rivers absolutely destroyed patty off of the bench. cojo would of played was better d than mills on rivers.

[BacktoBasics]

The problem with Pop is that he isn't consistent. One small fuck up by Green/Tiago and they get shit on or benched immediately. On the other hand Parker and Mills can chuck away/screw up on defense and still play consistent minutes.Partially correct but certainly the most valid observation of the thread. Pop consistently affords players minutes when they successfully push Pops outer limits. That doesn't always mean "successfully" in our eyes but in the ways Pop wants them to push their game. This has been good and bad for Joseph since he's basically played within his perceived skill set and been careful to not push Pops patience. On the flip side of this we've never really seen if he can develop outside of that shell.

[Richie]

The idiots on PTR are almost as bad as stephan a smith.

Heres the deal. If Cory was so good, why didnt he get ANY minutes in the last 3 games of the playoffs, EVEN with an injured Parker?

I like joseph, I hated him his first 2 years, but he has shown improvement, and I do think hes going to get better.

With that being said, PAtty has better stats in almost everything, including rebounding, steals, and assist percentage rates. Mills gets better in the playoffs, and while cory, had an ok run last year, THIS YEAR HE DIDNT HAVE AN ASSIST. How in the hell do you proclaim you have a better point when HE DOESNT RECORD AN ASSIST? Same thing last year, Cory had 9 assists in 17 games and 90 minutes. How does that happen? I dont know, but the shit that comes off PTR is amazing, and the site should be shut down immediately. clowns

If you're gonna be ridiculous about low sample size, HE SHOT 83%! How do you get rid of someone who shot 83% in the PLAYOFFS???

[Richie]

our offense was fine against the clips. we needed defense in that series.

The games were close enough that a slight improvement in offense would have swung it. Green shooting 30% from 3 and Boris shooting 22% were killers, Boris especially because they didn't respect him outside and clogged the lane.

[Sean Cagney]

The games were close enough that a slight improvement in offense would have swung it. Green shooting 30% from 3 and Boris shooting 22% were killers, Boris especially because they didn't respect him outside and clogged the lane.

I agree with you, Cojo would not have helped that situation at all. Patty was shooting VERY WELL, if he is in the game at the end of game 7 they win it IMO. Our O was the problem IMO, Beli and Mills the only ones who showed up from outside that series sides Green in game 7.
not really, and if they saved us it's because we were down due to terrible defense in the first place. we scored plenty even in our losses. and cojo wouldn't of been a game changer but his defense was needed on cp3. paul was torching parker and mills and don't forget the game austin rivers absolutely destroyed patty off of the bench. cojo would of played was better d than mills on rivers.

I thought they had Green on CP3 at times? That is the ideal match up you would want guarding him IMO. Cojo to me lacks too much on the O end to have him out there in that series, his D doesn't offset that fully IMO. I need to see him more I guess but the dude is just not that impressive for me and would not have swung the series. If Tony was out the last 3 minutes when he was missing badly and Mills in there I think we win the series. Patty's D is not that good though I agree as Corey's O is not that good, so it's a who do you pick type of thing for a situation. I don't know how good CJ would have been though since he did not play, all here say. Patty offsets his D at times though when he gets hot from outside, dude single handedly brought them back in a game where the starters did horrible and he gets inserted and it goes from down 17 to a tie.

[Richie]

I agree with you, Cojo would not have helped that situation at all. Patty was shooting VERY WELL, if he is in the game at the end of game 7 they win it IMO. Our O was the problem IMO, Beli and Mills the only ones who showed up from outside that series sides Green in game 7.

You're probably right, Mills was lights out in the Clippers series. He is the kind of player who can paper over the cracks when the playmakers aren't producing by nailing 3's, but to me Joseph is the kind of player who can step up in to the playmaker role.

[tholdren]

If you're gonna be ridiculous about low sample size, HE SHOT 83%! How do you get rid of someone who shot 83% in the PLAYOFFS???

The point is he's not a high volume scorer and he didn't facilitate. He's a PG. To not record any assists, and limited the year before makes getting rid if him that much easier.

[Richie]

The point is he's not a high volume scorer and he didn't facilitate. He's a PG. To not record any assists, and limited the year before makes getting rid if him that much easier.

Unfair to blame him for 'not facilitating' considering all his minutes came in blowouts in Game 1 and 3. It's also unfair to look as assists to judge who is a facilitator and who isn't, especially in the Spurs system. There's no question that overall, Joseph is better facilitator than Mills and Mills is a better 3 point shooter than Joseph

[tholdren]

Unfair to blame him for 'not facilitating' considering all his minutes came in blowouts in Game 1 and 3. It's also unfair to look as assists to judge who is a facilitator and who isn't, especially in the Spurs system. There's no question that overall, Joseph is better facilitator than Mills and Mills is a better 3 point shooter than Joseph
No.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Mills is a much better player than CoJo and I like CoJo.

[Dex]

CoJo has improved his game, but frankly, I'm tired of watching the offense hit the skids whenever he is on the floor. Being a marginally better defender doesn't mean much if you are letting the opponents sag off and play 5-on-4 on the other side of the floor.

[Raven]

Unfair to blame him for 'not facilitating' considering all his minutes came in blowouts in Game 1 and 3. It's also unfair to look as assists to judge who is a facilitator and who isn't, especially in the Spurs system. There's no question that overall, Joseph is better facilitator than Mills and Mills is a better 3 point shooter than Joseph

yep

[Raven]

CoJo has improved his game, but frankly, I'm tired of watching the offense hit the skids whenever he is on the floor. Being a marginally better defender doesn't mean much if you are letting the opponents sag off and play 5-on-4 on the other side of the floor.

marginally?

[Richie]

CoJo has improved his game, but frankly, I'm tired of watching the offense hit the skids whenever he is on the floor. Being a marginally better defender doesn't mean much if you are letting the opponents sag off and play 5-on-4 on the other side of the floor.

He needs to be more willing to shoot the open 3. It's strange for a player who shot over 40% from 3 in college and 48% from 3 in the D-League to be so tentative with it. I wonder if it's Pop holding him back. He even shot 50% on above-the-break 3s last season, going 7-14.

[Mugen]

I really don't think it's much of a hyperbole to say I'd rather have either one of them over Porky when you consider the contracts tbh.

[DPG21920]

They are both replaceable.

[Taking it to the Hole]

You keep Joseph because he has improved not regressed. I love what Mills can do when he is HOT but that is the thing, he has to be in a zone to be effective. COJO has the ability to be the point guard this team needs in the future and he can play defense. No matter how you rationalize it, you cannot deny that COJO is the better player skill wise. I think he has earned his next paycheck especially earlier this year when everyone stunk except Duncan and he was the most consistent player we had. Sadly, I don't see the Spurs being able to keep him which is unfortunate because after he leaves you have no other point guards to turn to.

[tholdren]

yep

no. Cory wasnt even good enough to get in the game. By giving danny green big time money would be to completely go against the spurs stance of playing your players during the real season (playoffs).

The players who showed up this year in order of importance were:
Duncan
Mills-KL-Marco
Manu
Danny
Boris
.....
EVERYONE ELSE

[Sean Cagney]

CoJo has improved his game, but frankly, I'm tired of watching the offense hit the skids whenever he is on the floor. Being a marginally better defender doesn't mean much if you are letting the opponents sag off and play 5-on-4 on the other side of the floor.

Exactly...

[RD2191]

I agree with you, Cojo would not have helped that situation at all. Patty was shooting VERY WELL, if he is in the game at the end of game 7 they win it IMO. Our O was the problem IMO, Beli and Mills the only ones who showed up from outside that series sides Green in game 7.

I thought they had Green on CP3 at times? That is the ideal match up you would want guarding him IMO. Cojo to me lacks too much on the O end to have him out there in that series, his D doesn't offset that fully IMO. I need to see him more I guess but the dude is just not that impressive for me and would not have swung the series. If Tony was out the last 3 minutes when he was missing badly and Mills in there I think we win the series. Patty's D is not that good though I agree as Corey's O is not that good, so it's a who do you pick type of thing for a situation. I don't know how good CJ would have been though since he did not play, all here say. Patty offsets his D at times though when he gets hot from outside, dude single handedly brought them back in a game where the starters did horrible and he gets inserted and it goes from down 17 to a tie.
you do understand that while mills was hitting shots it was his lack of defense that had us down in the first place, right? mills is nothing special. other than hitting shots he doesn't do anything else particularity well. he's a smaller gary neal and our own mini jamal crawford. he is a chucker. every now and then he hits some crowd pleasing 3s but a lot of the times we are down because of his terrible defense. austin rivers absolutely murdered mills. you're telling me cojo (a solid proven defender) wouldnt of done a better job? our offense was fine. go back and check the scores, the spurs scored plenty even with green/parker/tiago bricking. it was lack of defense that cost us the series, not a lack of offense.

[RD2191]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YaQAVQgG3Y

[Raven]

no. Cory wasnt even good enough to get in the game. By giving danny green big time money would be to completely go against the spurs stance of playing your players during the real season (playoffs).

The players who showed up this year in order of importance were:
Duncan
Mills-KL-Marco
Manu
Danny
Boris
.....
EVERYONE ELSE

sure.

[TD 21]

Why can't it be both? If Manu really is retiring, play them both in the 2nd unit and let Cory guard whichever small Patty can't.

I've been saying this for a while. There's plenty of examples of PG sized guards who primarily defend SG's, from Bradley to Hinrich to Ellis to Harris to Bledsoe to Knight. Many of them do so in starting roles, too.

Pop loves Joseph, they've spent four years developing him and with Parker's decline/constantly being banged up, they need all the PG depth they can get. If Joseph goes, it'll either be as collateral damage of an Aldridge signing and Green re-signing or because he get's an off sheet that they're not comfortable with. It's not going to be because he'd be undersized defending SG's.

[tholdren]

sure.
sure what? Im not sure how you could disagree. Do you want to look at DWS or OWS in the playoffs this year? Points scored?

[RD2191]

sure what? Im not sure how you could disagree. Do you want to look at DWS or OWS in the playoffs this year? Points scored?
how exactly did mills show up? he hit shots off then bench while getting destroyed on d. nothing special about that. he is supposed to be a pg yet had 8 total assist in 7 games:lol manu is the backup SG and had 3 games with 6 assist and 1 with 7:lol

[RD2191]

you score 10 but give up 10 you really had no impact on the game

[tholdren]

how exactly did mills show up? he hit shots off then bench while getting destroyed on d. nothing special about that. he is supposed to be a pg yet had 8 total assist in 7 games:lol manu is the backup SG and had 3 games with 6 assist and 1 with 7:lol

No, he's supposed to be a scoring PG, not a facilitating PG. It's sad that you dont understand his role.

Second, please show me, and everyone else, your "getting destroyed on d." He had .1 lower DWS than danny, who you claim to be an elite defender.

Mills had the highest TS and 3% on the team. Mills had the second highest PER. He had the highest WS/48. He had the second highest OWS. Highest ORat. He was a 109 Drating and Green was a 107. Not to mention he, like Marco, shot and made HUGE SHOTS when they mattered. To claim that Mills, or Marco didnt show up is ignorant. To throw out how manu had more assists than anyone is also equally as ignorant.

[tholdren]

you score 10 but give up 10 you really had no impact on the game
how about when you score 0 and give up 20?

[baseline bum]

I'd much rather have Mills' shooting. You can play him with Parker since he can hit the three and when Parker is on the bench you can have Diaw and possibly Kyle Anderson running a lot of the offense. Plus Mills is on a cheap contract.

[RD2191]

how exactly did mills show up? he hit shots off then bench while getting destroyed on d. nothing special about that. he is supposed to be a pg yet had 8 total assist in 7 games:lol manu is the backup SG and had 3 games with 6 assist and 1 with 7:lol
that's all there is to it.

[RD2191]

No, he's supposed to be a scoring PG, not a facilitating PG. It's sad that you dont understand his role.

Second, please show me, and everyone else, your "getting destroyed on d." He had .1 lower DWS than danny, who you claim to be an elite defender.

Mills had the highest TS and 3% on the team. Mills had the second highest PER. He had the highest WS/48. He had the second highest OWS. Highest ORat. He was a 109 Drating and Green was a 107. Not to mention he, like Marco, shot and made HUGE SHOTS when they mattered. To claim that Mills, or Marco didnt show up is ignorant. To throw out how manu had more assists than anyone is also equally as ignorant.
so he's an undersized SG who plays terrible defense? got it

[tholdren]

so he's an undersized SG who plays terrible defense? got it

you must not be able to read.

[Sean Cagney]

you do understand that while mills was hitting shots it was his lack of defense that had us down in the first place, right? mills is nothing special. other than hitting shots he doesn't do anything else particularity well. he's a smaller gary neal and our own mini jamal crawford. he is a chucker. every now and then he hits some crowd pleasing 3s but a lot of the times we are down because of his terrible defense. austin rivers absolutely murdered mills. you're telling me cojo (a solid proven defender) wouldnt of done a better job? our offense was fine. go back and check the scores, the spurs scored plenty even with green/parker/tiago bricking. it was lack of defense that cost us the series, not a lack of offense.
No, Mills was on the bench and the starters got them down 15 or so early, he came in and hit some threes and pulled them back in it so it was not his D that got them down int he first place. The starters were pathetic a few games and he came in there and hit some threes to get them out of a hole. I don't think Cojo is anything special sides some decent D, he stalls the O as many have said when he comes in. Mills role is to score in bundles and he did that well in the finals last year and first round this year, what has Cojo done before in the playoffs? Sure Mills is not good at D, we all know that. Gary Neal didn't hit the threes at the consistency Mills has in the playoffs, he would be on one game and then off three in a row, plus his D was even worse believe it or not. Crawford is a chucker but man his shot can be sweet since you mention him, scores in bundles as well when hot.

Austin Rivers murdered everyone that one game sadly, not just Mills. Cojo you claim a solid defender then Mills is a proven shooter except he has done it in the finals before, Cojo the regular season as he doesn't get minutes in the playoffs so how is he proven? What stage? Cojo would have done better on D sure but what about when they were behind and the 2nd unit was out there? He would not provide the outside shot the others were sorely lacking in that series and Mills provided, so he brings D and no O to the table and others are missing shots as well, who does the scoring?

Spurs 2nd unit did well in a few of those games that series, Beli and Mills leading the bunch off the bench in scoring and did their job. I disagree on lack of offense since everyone outside of Kawhi out there shot horribly, they needed outside shooting and he brought that while others were missing everything in sight. Corey would not have changed that series, none.

[Cklbmk]

marginally?

http://i.imgur.com/oelxXqr.jpg



Just realizing mills didnt qualify for list... maybe someone finds it useful. But corey was statistically the 14th best defensive PG last year. Almost equal with chris paul

[RD2191]

No, Mills was on the bench and the starters got them down 15 or so early, he came in and hit some threes and pulled them back in it so it was not his D that got them down int he first place. The starters were pathetic a few games and he came in there and hit some threes to get them out of a hole. I don't think Cojo is anything special sides some decent D, he stalls the O as many have said when he comes in. Mills role is to score in bundles and he did that well in the finals last year and first round this year, what has Cojo done before in the playoffs? Sure Mills is not good at D, we all know that. Gary Neal didn't hit the threes at the consistency Mills has in the playoffs, he would be on one game and then off three in a row, plus his D was even worse believe it or not. Crawford is a chucker but man his shot can be sweet since you mention him, scores in bundles as well when hot.

Austin Rivers murdered everyone that one game sadly, not just Mills. Cojo you claim a solid defender then Mills is a proven shooter except he has done it in the finals before, Cojo the regular season as he doesn't get minutes in the playoffs so how is he proven? What stage? Cojo would have done better on D sure but what about when they were behind and the 2nd unit was out there? He would not provide the outside shot the others were sorely lacking in that series and Mills provided, so he brings D and no O to the table and others are missing shots as well, who does the scoring?

Spurs 2nd unit did well in a few of those games that series, Beli and Mills leading the bunch off the bench in scoring and did their job. I disagree on lack of offense since everyone outside of Kawhi out there shot horribly, they needed outside shooting and he brought that while others were missing everything in sight. Corey would not have changed that series, none.
spurs scored over 100 in 4 or 5 games iirc. offense was not a problem. the problem was defense. terrible defense from our starting pg and backup pg. how is 8 total assist in 7 games played good pg play? it isn't. cojo plays solid defense and most definitely would of made rivers and cp3 work harder. mills is an undersized sg who plays terrible defense.

[RD2191]

the spurs are also better offensively with cojo on the floor. look it up.

[Sean Cagney]

spurs scored over 100 in 4 or 5 games iirc. offense was not a problem. the problem was defense. terrible defense from our starting pg and backup pg. how is 8 total assist in 7 games played good pg play? it isn't. cojo plays solid defense and most definitely would of made rivers and cp3 work harder. mills is an undersized sg who plays terrible defense.
I disagree on him changing the series and think Mills did fine and was one of the few hitting shots. Corey to me just is not that good, not really a big fan despite him being good on D the sample size is not big enough for me to think he would have made a difference. Maybe if he gets some playoff games under his belt I will change my mind there. He is okay I guess but I don't like when he is out there running the O.
the spurs are also better offensively with cojo on the floor. look it up.

So you think of Corey starts full time at the PG they are a better team? Offensively etc.?

[tholdren]

No, Mills was on the bench and the starters got them down 15 or so early, he came in and hit some threes and pulled them back in it so it was not his D that got them down int he first place. The starters were pathetic a few games and he came in there and hit some threes to get them out of a hole. I don't think Cojo is anything special sides some decent D, he stalls the O as many have said when he comes in. Mills role is to score in bundles and he did that well in the finals last year and first round this year, what has Cojo done before in the playoffs? Sure Mills is not good at D, we all know that. Gary Neal didn't hit the threes at the consistency Mills has in the playoffs, he would be on one game and then off three in a row, plus his D was even worse believe it or not. Crawford is a chucker but man his shot can be sweet since you mention him, scores in bundles as well when hot.

Austin Rivers murdered everyone that one game sadly, not just Mills. Cojo you claim a solid defender then Mills is a proven shooter except he has done it in the finals before, Cojo the regular season as he doesn't get minutes in the playoffs so how is he proven? What stage? Cojo would have done better on D sure but what about when they were behind and the 2nd unit was out there? He would not provide the outside shot the others were sorely lacking in that series and Mills provided, so he brings D and no O to the table and others are missing shots as well, who does the scoring?

Spurs 2nd unit did well in a few of those games that series, Beli and Mills leading the bunch off the bench in scoring and did their job. I disagree on lack of offense since everyone outside of Kawhi out there shot horribly, they needed outside shooting and he brought that while others were missing everything in sight. Corey would not have changed that series, none.

I would agree with everything you say, except the last sentence. I believe, that if Tony was truly injured, and even if he wasn't, pop should have replaced many of his minutes with Joseph. I believe, in that instance, Joseph could have changed the series. Tony stunk the joint up. It's almost inexcusable that pop didnt give joseph minutes when tony was complaining of injury OR due to his poor play. Joseph is a backup PG, who was in a contract year. Why not see what you have in Joseph. Right now, Pop has to make a decision about a backup PG who he really doesnt know can cut full time playoff duties. Stupid rotations caught up with pop this year, but this is a typical gregg error.

[RD2191]

I disagree on him changing the series and think Mills did fine and was one of the few hitting shots. Corey to me just is not that good, not really a big fan despite him being good on D the sample size is not big enough for me to think he would have made a difference. Maybe if he gets some playoff games under his belt I will change my mind there. He is okay I guess but I don't like when he is out there running the O.
the spurs offense is better with cojo on the floor though. and if he isn't proven it's because pop for some unknown reason hasn't given him a chance.






Except here we are, at Game 82, and the Spurs still haven't settled on their backup point guard. Since Dec. 28, when Patty Mills (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/71950/patty-mills) returned from rehabbing off-season rotator cuff surgery, he's played 791 minutes, to Cory Joseph's (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/150317/cory-joseph) 708. Mills was given every chance to win the job in March so that the Spurs could return to the rotation they won the championship with, but he shot so poorly, 32.9 percent for the month, that Gregg Popovich (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/98773/gregg-popovich) had no choice but go back to Joseph in April.
If you go by the individual numbers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html), it's really no contest. Joseph is shooting 50.5 percent, to Mills' 37.2. He's even out-shooting him from deep, 36.4 percent (better than Leonard, Ginobili and Diaw as well) to 33.7 percent for Mills. Joseph gets far more rebounds, more assists, is four times as likely to block a shot and has almost identical steal and turnover rates to his Australian mate. He's bigger, stronger and the scrappier defender. Joseph has a 15.6 PER to Mills' 12.5, and his Win Shares Per 48 is .152 to Mills' .079.
The advance team metrics are even more damning for Mills. He has the worst net rating among the regulars, at -3.0, according to RealGM.com (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/San-Antonio-Spurs/26/Stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Regular_Season). It's actually closer to -4 according to my favorite stats database and yours, basketball-reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html). Ironically, while Joseph has a slightly better defensive rating than Mills according to those sites, where he really pulls away is in offensive rating. It's 115.2 for Joseph to 101.6 for Mills. (I really have no idea what's up with NBA.com's numbers, where Mills is a defensive superstar (http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612759/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1).)


http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/4/14/8408911/cory-joseph-should-play-playoffs

[tholdren]

Mills and beli saved several games for SA this post-season when cha-boy Green was shooting 30% from the floor. Look up the playoff stats, not the damn regular season garbage.

[TheGreatYacht]

http://i.imgur.com/oelxXqr.jpg



Just realizing mills didnt qualify for list... maybe someone finds it useful. But corey was statistically the 14th best defensive PG last year. Almost equal with chris paul
Parker is a better defender than Conley and Elfrid Payton, dude does it all.

[Sean Cagney]

I would agree with everything you say, except the last sentence. I believe, that if Tony was truly injured, and even if he wasn't, pop should have replaced many of his minutes with Joseph. I believe, in that instance, Joseph could have changed the series. Tony stunk the joint up. It's almost inexcusable that pop didnt give joseph minutes when tony was complaining of injury OR due to his poor play. Joseph is a backup PG, who was in a contract year. Why not see what you have in Joseph. Right now, Pop has to make a decision about a backup PG who he really doesnt know can cut full time playoff duties. Stupid rotations caught up with pop this year, but this is a typical gregg error.Tony, agreed there. You do not go take the minutes away from the guy off the bench though who is hot like Patty, you can play both but you have to keep Mills in there when he is shooting that hot. Tony was atrocious that series, do not get me started on that. I can agree on what you said. Rob is talking about take Patty's minutes away and giving them to Corey, which would have been a big mistake IMO the way he was shooting.
Mills and beli saved several games for SA this post-season when cha-boy Green was shooting 30% from the floor. Look up the playoff stats, not the damn regular season garbage.

I agree on this here, that is what I have been saying to him but he keeps bringing up regular season. I don't see why he wanted Patty taken out of the game when he was one of the few who could actually keep you in a game hitting that three ball.

[Gagnrath]

how exactly did mills show up? he hit shots off then bench while getting destroyed on d. nothing special about that. he is supposed to be a pg yet had 8 total assist in 7 games:lol manu is the backup SG and had 3 games with 6 assist and 1 with 7:lol

2015 Playoffs Age is Years-Days · Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · Export · PRE · LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02/gamelog/2015/#pgl_basic_playoffs::none) · ?



Rk
G
Date
Age
Tm

Opp

GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
GmSc
+/-
DFS


1
1
2015-04-19 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504190LAC.html)
26-251
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
@
LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
L (-15)
0
10:37
3
5
.600
3
4
.750
0
0

1
1
2
1
0
0
1
2
9
6.6
+15
14.0


2
2
2015-04-22 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504220LAC.html)
26-254
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
@
LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
W (+4)
0
19:05
5
9
.556
2
5
.400
6
6
1.000
1
2
3
1
1
0
0
4
18
15.1
+4
26.3


3
3
2015-04-24 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504240SAS.html)
26-256
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)

LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
W (+27)
0
14:39
2
5
.400
2
4
.500
0
0

1
2
3
0
0
0
0
1
6
4.2
+7
10.8


4
4
2015-04-26 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504260SAS.html)
26-258
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)

LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
L (-9)
0
19:49
4
10
.400
2
5
.400
4
4
1.000
0
3
3
2
0
0
1
3
14
8.7
-4
21.3


5
5
2015-04-28 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504280LAC.html)
26-260
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
@
LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
W (+4)
0
14:35
4
5
.800
4
4
1.000
1
1
1.000
0
4
4
0
0
0
2
4
13
8.7
+3
19.0


6
6
2015-04-30 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504300SAS.html)
26-262
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)

LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
L (-6)
0
17:51
1
2
.500
1
2
.500
2
2
1.000
0
3
3
3
0
0
1
1
5
5.6
+9
13.3


7
7
2015-05-02 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505020LAC.html)
26-264
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
@
LAC (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2015.html)
L (-2)
0
15:37
2
6
.333
2
4
.500
0
0

1
0
1
1
1
0
0
0
6
5.0
+4
11.8




The +- shows mills wasn't exactly giving up a much as he was scoring while he is in there.

I do agree he's not exactly a top notch defender but he isn't anywhere close to as bad as he was in portland.
Right now on Defense his rating would be adequate.

[Gagnrath]

A few things Rivers is both big enough and smart enough to bully Mills by backing him down and shooting over him Thats a limitation that some players have, he did the same with Parker a couple of times as well. Parker played alot of minutes for someone who was injured/banged up.

I do agree that Mills isn't an Ideal back-up point guard, I also agree that neither is Joseph. The pounding the rock article from March/April is useless. Mills took a awhile to regain his shot after major shoulder surgery so Joseph got some extra minutes..... Is pretty much the whole takeaway from that piece.

[elbamba]

Joseph faded in the playoffs. He looked lost and scared. Truth is, he looked lost and scared after Parker and Mills came back from injuries. Joseph looked good the first half of the season when the Spurs were sucking.

[Beaverfuzz]

Mills >>> CoJo, and it's not even close.

[RD2191]

the spurs offense is better with cojo on the floor though. and if he isn't proven it's because pop for some unknown reason hasn't given him a chance.






Except here we are, at Game 82, and the Spurs still haven't settled on their backup point guard. Since Dec. 28, when Patty Mills (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/71950/patty-mills) returned from rehabbing off-season rotator cuff surgery, he's played 791 minutes, to Cory Joseph's (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/150317/cory-joseph) 708. Mills was given every chance to win the job in March so that the Spurs could return to the rotation they won the championship with, but he shot so poorly, 32.9 percent for the month, that Gregg Popovich (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/98773/gregg-popovich) had no choice but go back to Joseph in April.
If you go by the individual numbers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html), it's really no contest. Joseph is shooting 50.5 percent, to Mills' 37.2. He's even out-shooting him from deep, 36.4 percent (better than Leonard, Ginobili and Diaw as well) to 33.7 percent for Mills. Joseph gets far more rebounds, more assists, is four times as likely to block a shot and has almost identical steal and turnover rates to his Australian mate. He's bigger, stronger and the scrappier defender. Joseph has a 15.6 PER to Mills' 12.5, and his Win Shares Per 48 is .152 to Mills' .079.
The advance team metrics are even more damning for Mills. He has the worst net rating among the regulars, at -3.0, according to RealGM.com (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/San-Antonio-Spurs/26/Stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Regular_Season). It's actually closer to -4 according to my favorite stats database and yours, basketball-reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html). Ironically, while Joseph has a slightly better defensive rating than Mills according to those sites, where he really pulls away is in offensive rating. It's 115.2 for Joseph to 101.6 for Mills. (I really have no idea what's up with NBA.com's numbers, where Mills is a defensive superstar (http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612759/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1).)


http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/4/14/8408911/cory-joseph-should-play-playoffs


http://i.imgur.com/oelxXqr.jpg



Just realizing mills didnt qualify for list... maybe someone finds it useful. But corey was statistically the 14th best defensive PG last year. Almost equal with chris paul
stats don't lie. that's all there is to it.

[tholdren]

stats don't lie. that's all there is to it.

Bringing up stats from the year before or the regular season has no bearing on who is better at the moment.

What your doing is saying David Robinson would be better than Tiago now, because Robinson had better stats in 1993.

[Raven]

sure what? Im not sure how you could disagree. Do you want to look at DWS or OWS in the playoffs this year? Points scored?

sure that you're trolling.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mills >>> CoJo, and it's not even close.

[tholdren]

sure that you're trolling.
killer avatar

[Arcadian]

Ideally, we should keep both! I'd rather have Joseph + Mills than Parker + either one.

I like the idea of starting Joseph and bringing Mills off the bench (and closing games). That would give us an interesting contrast between a pass-first defensive PG for the starting unit (devastating along with Leonard, Green, Duncan, and Splitter) and a shoot-first clutch scoring PG off the bench. What more could you want?

[Sean Cagney]

Ideally, we should keep both! I'd rather have Joseph + Mills than Parker + either one.

I like the idea of starting Joseph and bringing Mills off the bench (and closing games). That would give us an interesting contrast between a pass-first defensive PG for the starting unit (devastating along with Leonard, Green, Duncan, and Splitter) and a shoot-first clutch scoring PG off the bench. What more could you want?
I could want a real PG who is aggressive in the 1st unit as well. CJ is not a starting PG in this league Imo, vastly overrated in here at times. Good defender but stalls the O. I need to see alot more from him to be impressed.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Ideally, we should keep both! I'd rather have Joseph + Mills than Parker + either one.

I like the idea of starting Joseph and bringing Mills off the bench (and closing games). That would give us an interesting contrast between a pass-first defensive PG for the starting unit (devastating along with Leonard, Green, Duncan, and Splitter) and a shoot-first clutch scoring PG off the bench. What more could you want?

Teams guard CoJo the same way they guard Rondo - from 5 feet away. Starting him would hurt the spacing for Duncan and Kawhi. Pop would do it in meaningless December games to verify how shit it really is but there's no way he goes with this as his main plan.

[Gagnrath]

Ideally, we should keep both! I'd rather have Joseph + Mills than Parker + either one.

I like the idea of starting Joseph and bringing Mills off the bench (and closing games). That would give us an interesting contrast between a pass-first defensive PG for the starting unit (devastating along with Leonard, Green, Duncan, and Splitter) and a shoot-first clutch scoring PG off the bench. What more could you want?


The Problem with that is now that Joseph has been scouted by the rest of the teams in the league they know he doesn't shoot. He's actually worse about that than Diaw. A point guard who doesn't really collapse the defense, and doesn't have a willingness to take a moderately open outside shot isn't starting material.

[jbspurs]

If the Spurs end up losing one of the two, I hope they get another solid backup, maybe Isiaah Canaan or even Orlando Johnson..

[TheGreatYacht]

Bum is already making his decision.. Terrible fit with Lebron, tbh

608454139077636096

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

^^ Guys actually run around sporting their championship rings?? I figured those things just get put in the trophy case.

[RD2191]

Lol Norris scrub cole.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHHFJRiW0AAyB4C.jpg:large

SportsCenter @SportsCenter
(https://twitter.com/SportsCenter)Johnny Manziel is in the house to enjoy Cleveland's Game 3 win. pic.twitter.com/9rD1qw8u4N (http://t.co/9rD1qw8u4N)

[cd021]

^^ Guys actually run around sporting their championship rings?? I figured those things just get put in the trophy case.

I'm sure they were asked to for the game.