How do you define a leader on a championship team?

[ambchang]

How is it defined?
Is it the captain of the team? If so, then Avery Johnson and Derek Fishers would have been leaders for a few championship teams.

Is it the best player of the team? If so, then how is best player defined? It's pretty obvious on teams like the Heat last year, Mavs in 2011, or Spurs in 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007. Say in the case of the 2008 Celtics, the Spurs last year.

Suggestions?

[monosylab1k]

imo, last two minutes of Game 7, game is tied. Who does everyone say "This guy has to deliver RIGHT NOW. We will lose unless he pulls through"

Most teams it's obvious (2011 Mavs & Dirk, 2008 Celtics & Pierce), sometimes not so much. Even last year's Spurs with Kawhi as MVP, I think in the above scenario all eyes are still on Duncan.

[DMC]

Spurs are one of the few teams if not the only team who's coach is that guy. You look at it and say "Pop has to do something here" and you cannot just put Manu, Tim or Tony there like you could with Dirk or any other legit team leader, not in a few years actually. It comes down to Pop's chess match and sometimes he looks brilliant and others he looks like an idiot.

[Buddy Mignon]

How is it defined?
Is it the captain of the team? If so, then Avery Johnson and Derek Fishers would have been leaders for a few championship teams.

Is it the best player of the team? If so, then how is best player defined? It's pretty obvious on teams like the Heat last year, Mavs in 2011, or Spurs in 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007. Say in the case of the 2008 Celtics, the Spurs last year.

Suggestions?

The leader is the guy that every other player will defer to. The leader is the guy that can get you a bucket under any circumstance. James has been the leader of the Heat and Cavs. Duncan, Manu, and Parker rotated over the years but it was mostly Duncan. Kiwi has been and will always be a role player like I've always said. Kiwi winning the MVP was like Cedric Maxwell winning it for the 80's Celtics. It was Magic for the Lakers... Jordan for the Bulls... Bird for the Celtics... Thomas for the Pistons... and Hakeem for the Rockets.

Now on to the reason this thread was started. Kobe was the leader of the Lakers the moment he was drafted. He proved it in his rookie season with those air balls in Utah. If Shaq or Van Exel had an ounce of leadership in them... which they didn't... they would have never allowed rookie Kobe to take those shots with the game on the line. Kobe has maintained that position for his entire career.

[Thread]

How is it defined?
Is it the captain of the team? If so, then Avery Johnson and Derek Fishers would have been leaders for a few championship teams.

Is it the best player of the team? If so, then how is best player defined? It's pretty obvious on teams like the Heat last year, Mavs in 2011, or Spurs in 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007. Say in the case of the 2008 Celtics, the Spurs last year.

Suggestions?

Yeah, I have a suggestion:::link Cowherd's show this morning so we can listen to it from the horse's ass mouth.

[ambchang]

So it seems like the person taking the clutch shot, or expected to create on offense in the final possession would be the guy?

If that is the case, then Ginobili would be the leader on the 2005 Spurs, no? In fact, wouldn't most guards (and especially PGs) be in that role?

[Silver&Black]

So it seems like the person taking the clutch shot, or expected to create on offense in the final possession would be the guy?

If that is the case, then Ginobili would be the leader on the 2005 Spurs, no? In fact, wouldn't most guards (and especially PGs) be in that role?

Tim Duncan is the leader of the Spurs...always has been. Always will be.

/discussion

[Thread]

Tim Duncan is the leader of the Spurs...always has been. Always will be.

/discussion

Though he did get kicked to the curb by Amy almost 2 Junes ago. She led ya's right into the shitter.

[Silver&Black]

Though he did get kicked to the curb by Amy almost 2 Junes ago. She led ya's right into the shitter.

So ornery cubs...so ornery.

What does this have to do with Duncan being the "leader of the Spurs"?

[spurraider21]

robert horry is the GOAT leader

[Thread]

So ornery cubs...so ornery.

What does this have to do with Duncan being the "leader of the Spurs"?

Just gettin' my ornery on.

[JamStone]

It's probably different for each team. See, I disagree with mono that Pierce was the leader of that 2008 Celtics team. He was the guy who had the basketball at the end of games. But he was that same guy before the Celtics became contenders when they were a lottery team. KG was the leader of the defense and the defense was the reason they became a championship team. I think that was their identity when they became relevant again. I think KG was that team's leader, not Pierce.

By the third championship for the Shaq-Kobe Lakers, Kobe was the one who had the basketball in his hands at the end of games, but I know plenty of people on here would never agree that Kobe was the actual leader of those Shaq-Kobe teams. And while Blake Griffin is the best player on the Clippers, I view Chris Paul as the leader of that team. So it's not who the best player is or who the clutch performer is. It depends on the team. Go to the 1999 Spurs and even if Duncan had clearly become the guy on offense and at a young age already the best player on the team and FMVP, I don't think he was the leader of the team yet. I still think it was David Robinson. He may have started to defer to Tim on the court, but did it mean he deferred his leadership? I don't think so, not yet at that point. By 2003, sure. But not on that 1999 team. I don't believe so.

Like people, championship teams can have different personalities. To me, the leader is the guy who is the face of the team, the spokesperson who gets in front of the camera and takes responsibility when things go bad, the guy who defers credit to his teammates and coaches when things go well. That's the leader. Not just about the stats a player puts up or his ability to make clutch shots or clutch plays. It's not that those things aren't important as both will give a player clout to become a leader. But I see leadership as a guy who will be the first guy to shoulder blame while being the last guy to take credit. That's my view of "good" leadership anyway.

[Buddy Mignon]

Chatting with coach
Kobe Bryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant)

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Can't tell which one is the coach.

[Buddy Mignon]

GM Mitch Kupchak catches up with @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) during today's draft workouts
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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3528998054/dd0983eda0554e5be18f5dae21286c40_bigger.jpegKnicks Memes ‏@KnicksMemes (https://twitter.com/KnicksMemes) 21m21 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/KnicksMemes/status/603997398189355009)
@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers) @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) "So Kobe, who am I drafting?"
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@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers) @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) "you really think im not playing for another team after this year? did u see pierce mah nigga?"
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@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers) @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) is like "you really said next year is my last?"
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“@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers): GM Mitch Kupchak catches up with @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) during today's draft workouts pic.twitter.com/X4rt2Xb4TR (http://t.co/X4rt2Xb4TR)”
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@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers) @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) "towns fam draft towns" lmao
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@Lakers (https://twitter.com/Lakers) @kobebryant (https://twitter.com/kobebryant) gheess GM Mitch is taller than Kobe..

[ambchang]

Which brings us to golden states. Is curry the leader? If not, who else?

[ambchang]

And narutoluva. Stop spamming the thread with Kobe. No one will mistake him as a leader.

[Thread]

Kobe doesn't have the temperament to lead. He's the epitome of the loner. He grudges others their onions. It is uncomfortable watching him in the society of the NBA court. He wants to lead, he wants to be gracious of others and their accomplishments but it never gets past his pathology.

[Mitch]

The most influential player in a repeat, obviously.

[DMC]

The leader is the guy that every other player will defer to. The leader is the guy that can get you a bucket under any circumstance. James has been the leader of the Heat and Cavs. Duncan, Manu, and Parker rotated over the years but it was mostly Duncan. Kiwi has been and will always be a role player like I've always said. Kiwi winning the MVP was like Cedric Maxwell winning it for the 80's Celtics. It was Magic for the Lakers... Jordan for the Bulls... Bird for the Celtics... Thomas for the Pistons... and Hakeem for the Rockets.

Now on to the reason this thread was started. Kobe was the leader of the Lakers the moment he was drafted. He proved it in his rookie season with those air balls in Utah. If Shaq or Van Exel had an ounce of leadership in them... which they didn't... they would have never allowed rookie Kobe to take those shots with the game on the line. Kobe has maintained that position for his entire career.
So he led from his 15 minutes a game, 7.6ppg off the bench. Got it. Tim was never a bench player.

[DMC]

The most influential player in a repeat, obviously.
Which wasn't your Jerry West for example, although he is the only player ever to win the Finals MVP on the losing team, and he's the logo of the NBA.

[Buddy Mignon]

So he led from his 15 minutes a game, 7.6ppg off the bench. Got it. Tim was never a bench player.


Yup. Question? When Kobe passes it to himself like that does he get an assist and a rebound as well?

http://33.media.tumblr.com/e2ef24fe900983ae8e1653c892d6486e/tumblr_mufsexgQdQ1qcmnsoo2_400.gif

[Mitch]

Which wasn't your Jerry West for example, although he is the only player ever to win the Finals MVP on the losing team, and he's the logo of the NBA.

Shouldn't reward losers, wasn't my call.

[DMC]

Shouldn't reward losers, wasn't my call.
His jersey is in your rafters.

[Mitch]

His jersey is in your rafters.

Not my call, he didn't repeat.

[monosylab1k]

It's not all about offense, but I think that has to play a larger part in defining leadership. If you aren't willing or capable of taking the shot that will make or break the team, if you can hide behind the "well i played great defense and rebounded, that guy missed the big shots" excuse, then you aren't a leader.

[monosylab1k]

robert horry is the GOAT leader

Hitting big shots and being counted on to consistently hit big shots are two very different things.

[Infinite_limit]

imo, last two minutes of Game 7, game is tied. Who does everyone say "This guy has to deliver RIGHT NOW. We will lose unless he pulls through"

Most teams it's obvious (2011 Mavs & Dirk, 2008 Celtics & Pierce), sometimes not so much. Even last year's Spurs with Kawhi as MVP, I think in the above scenario all eyes are still on Duncan.
Sometimes the 'Difference Maker' is defensively. Play out your scenario but on Defense.

But you are correct, for Champions it is overwhelming the Go-To-Scorer. Exceptions
- 2014 Spurs: Best shot available
- 2006 Heat: That was Shaq's team
- 200? Lakers: Pick a specific year, Shaq's team but not shot taker
- 1995 Rockets: Maybe Drexler takes the final shot?
- 199? Pistons: Alot of leaders, Isiah would handle ball but find an open shot

[monosylab1k]

Sometimes the 'Difference Maker' is defensively. Play out your scenario but on Defense.

But you are correct, for Champions it is overwhelming the Go-To-Scorer. Exceptions
- 2014 Spurs: Best shot available
- 2006 Heat: That was Shaq's team
- 200? Lakers: Pick a specific year, Shaq's team but not shot taker
- 1995 Rockets: Maybe Drexler takes the final shot?
- 199? Pistons: Alot of leaders, Isiah would handle ball but find an open shot

Calling the 06 Heat Shaq's team is a first ballot shoe-in for the NBA Forum Shitty Take Hall Of Fame.

And defense is important but it simply isn't as important as offense. There's a reason greatness is generally defined by offensive ability. Defense is mostly effort and communication. Putting the ball in the hoop at a championship level is world class talent.

[Infinite_limit]

Calling the 06 Heat Shaq's team is a first ballot shoe-in for the NBA Forum Shitty Take Hall Of Fame.
Shaq could have bitch slapped Wade in practice and no one would have batted an eye

[monosylab1k]

Shaq could have bitch slapped Wade in practice and no one would have batted an eye

Shaq got bitch slapped by Ben Wallace in the playoffs and Wade picked him up and dragged him to a title.

[Phillip]

- 199? Pistons: Alot of leaders, Isiah would handle ball but find an open shot

Most of your list was crap, but this was the stupidest part yet. That team was undoubtedly Isiah's team.

[Malik Hairston]

There's a significant difference between "leader" and "best player", though..shit, there's even a slight difference in "best player" and "#1 option", at times..

2014 Spurs- leader: Duncan best player: Duncan or Kawhi or Ginobili #1 option: Parker
2012 and 2013 Heat- leader: Wade? best player and #1 option: Lebron
2011 Mavs- leader: Kidd? Dirk? Chandler or Terry? best player and #1 option: Dirk
2009 and 2010 Lakers- leader: probably Fisher best player/#1 option: Kobe
2008 Celtics- leader and best player: Garnett #1 option: Pierce

etc, etc..

I would also argue that Phil Jackson himself was probably the leader of the Bulls and Lakers teams, actually..

[midnightpulp]

I'm a pragmatist about this. Since we don't have access to the lockerroom and huddles (outside of a few shots here and there), we can't determine who the "leader" is with any certainty, so I boil it down to which player is statistically most important to their team.

[ambchang]

Calling the 06 Heat Shaq's team is a first ballot shoe-in for the NBA Forum Shitty Take Hall Of Fame.

And defense is important but it simply isn't as important as offense. There's a reason greatness is generally defined by offensive ability. Defense is mostly effort and communication. Putting the ball in the hoop at a championship level is world class talent.


Shaq could have bitch slapped Wade in practice and no one would have batted an eye


Shaq got bitch slapped by Ben Wallace in the playoffs and Wade picked him up and dragged him to a title.

We all know the refs were the leaders for the 06 Mavs.