Bill Laimbeer: Lebron much better than Dad Killer..

[Malik Hairston]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/smackblog/ct-bill-laimbeer-picks-lebron-james-over-michael-jordan-20150528-story.html

Refreshing, unbiased take, tbh..good to see, especially from one of Dad Killer's fellow White men..

[Mitch]

:lol

[sook]

oh, so thats what Lambeer thinks eh? :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/smackblog/ct-bill-laimbeer-picks-lebron-james-over-michael-jordan-20150528-story.html

Refreshing, unbiased take, tbh..good to see, especially from one of Dad Killer's fellow White men..

He's no where close to MJ...not even in the same local galactic group

[JohnnyMax]

Skip to 4:11

Lki7_xUMCVI

[lefty]

Lol Laimbeer still bitter over THE SWEEP and all those 50 pt games MJ had against them :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Laimbeer would have crushed Lebron..physically and mentally....he never broke MJ not mentally anyway :lol

[ambchang]

The gap between the two Is actually a lot closer than people think. Jordan is getting more and more overrated in which he is some kind of God that can do no wrong. He's still obviously one of the best, if not outright the best, of all time, but he isn't really head and shoulders above everybody else like what most people say.

Look at the teams he won with, they were unorthodox in the makeup and have all the components ideally constructed to amplify Jordan's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

[Sean Cagney]

If he said anywhere in there MUCH better he is out of his damn mind. I can see his opinion as saying near, but much better? I didn't even click the link but that part made me laugh.

[RsxPiimp]

Look at the teams he won with, they were unorthodox in the makeup and have all the components ideally constructed to amplify Jordan's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.
That's a retarded thing to say and I actually like Lebron. You don't think Lebron's team isn't constructed to maximize his strengths?

[CitizenDwayne]

So 80s/90s players' opinions don't mean shit unless they support Lebron, got it.

[ambchang]

That's a retarded thing to say and I actually like Lebron. You don't think Lebron's team isn't constructed to maximize his strengths?

Not really. There was a lot of talk about how lebron and Wade aren't really complimentary to each other.

All the cavs team had been horribly constructed.

[RsxPiimp]

Not really. There was a lot of talk about how lebron and Wade aren't really complimentary to each other.

All the cavs team had been horribly constructed.

I want to dissect this post but I honestly don't have time today but ok :lol

[Sean Cagney]

So 80s/90s players' opinions don't mean shit unless they support Lebron, got it.

Yep, then it fits their argument. I even asked before about a article posted where someone said the 86 Celts and 87 Lakers were the best, they posted it for some reason to back their arguments but kept ignoring that point made in the article. Some older Boston dude was talking about teams and said the Bulls team was not the best or overrated some, but he said that in his article as well which would not fit their argument of 80's and 90's ball being worse.

[Infinite_limit]

It's much easier to find a rebounder/assist machine than guy to hit the game winning basket with 10 seconds remaining

So James is a glorified Oscar Robertson. Whoopity do. James will put/keep you in position to Win the game but he doesn't have the offensive skill set to put you over the Top. There are many LeBron James. There are very few Michael Jordans

[Phillip]

So James is a glorified Oscar Robertson. Whoopity do. James will put/keep you in position to Win the game but he doesn't have the offensive skill set to put you over the Top.

Obviously you are horribly incorrect, considering Lebron has put his team over the top twice already. Do you just live to be stupid or something?

[JohnnyMax]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2015/05/28/lebron-james-michael-jordan/28056173/

LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

By Shawn Windsor, Detroit Free Press


Go back and watch. I dare you.

Go back and watch Michael Jordan.

Not just his highlights, not just his all-time dunks and buzzer-beaters, but an actual game in which he played, a full game, a game that reveals NBA wings without left hands and point guards who couldn't shoot.

Games in which he feasted on nonathletic shooting guards and slithered past power forwards with two left feet.

Dale Davis, anyone?

Yeah, there was muscle in the '90s, especially on the front line. And there was grabbing — mostly because there wasn't enough lateral quickness. And there was less skill and grace, poorer shooting and ballhandling and less otherworldly explosiveness.

So please: the romanticism. It. Has. To. Stop.

Hey, I get it: Jordan is still our future. He showed us the outer edge of athletic achievement in space. Nobody ever danced like he did.

During Jordan's rookie year I drove from Austin to San Antonio to catch a glimpse for myself. It's hard to overstate how electric he was then, how incomprehensible he was to our idea of what basketball could be. Plus, he won.

But he isn't LeBron James.

There, I said it.

And I'll say it again: Jordan is not James, not the same leader, not the same floor presence, not the same basketball genius. Jordan may be the best scorer in the history of the NBA. He may be the best last-minute shooter. He may even be the best perimeter defender, although I'd take Kawhi Leonard over Jordan in a heartbeat.

But he is not the best player.

LeBron James is.

This should be clear after Tuesday night, when James led the Cavaliers to a sweep over the Atlanta Hawks to get himself to the NBA Finals for the fifth straight time and sixth overall.

This year's Cavs are more talented than the team he pushed to the Finals in 2007, but Jordan never led a team like either to the final round.

He played for one of the best coaches in the sport's history, alongside the best small forward of his era (who happens to be one of the NBA's 50 greatest), flanked by shooters who helped other teams win titles and Hall of Fame rebounders who did the same.

Jordan played for a team that came within a bucket of the Eastern Conference finals the year after he retired. LeBron played for two teams that missed the playoffs the year after he left.

Think about that, about his effect on a franchise, about where the Miami Heat is now, about where the Cavs were a year ago, or the year after he left for Miami. This isn't a coincidence. It's not that complicated.

LeBron is Magic Johnson with a better jumper, better ball skills, more athletic ability and more power. And you're telling me that player isn't the best player ever?

OK, the rings. Yes, this matters.

And the loss to the Dallas Mavericks in the 2011 Finals in LeBron's first year with the Heat has no similar hiccup in Jordan's career. LeBron didn't handle the pressure that year, the only time his team lost a Finals where his side had more talent.

In that sense, Jordan is perfect.

But then Jordan didn't make the Finals himself until the Pistons were past their prime. After that, he squeaked past teams that couldn't shoot — the Knicks — or didn't have players who could create their own shot — the Pacers.

The best team he ever faced in the Finals — the Suns — couldn't defend. Kevin Johnson? Danny Ainge? Charles Barkley? Dan Majerle?

Please. LeBron had to play the Spurs three times, an outfit with a top-five coach, the best power forward ever, an All-Start point guard, a nasty, soul-stealing shooting guard, and role players that defended and shot like crazy.

And I'm not even talking about Leonard, who represents the sort of outsized combination of speed and size and agility that we now take for granted in this league.

Jordan beat John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek.

Twice.

Look, it's easy to pick apart LeBron's psyche, because that's what we do these days. It's easy, too, to overanalyze numbers every day, wondering why LeBron didn't shoot better or why he didn't get to the rim or why he had so many turnovers.

So let me say: 5-for-19 … and five.

Those are Jordan's shooting numbers and turnovers in the final game of the 1996 season, when his Bulls clinched the title against Seattle. His teammates picked him up that night, as they often did on nights when he couldn't take over a game, which wasn't as infrequent as you think, at least not in the playoffs.

Yet we didn't worry about Jordan's numbers that night. He won after returning from a sabbatical, and so we accepted his greatness.

It's time we did the same for LeBron. No one has ever commanded the huddle or the floor like he has.

[K...]

It's obvious that there are different answers to the questions:

Who is the all time best, best overall career, most dominant player, most likely to be picked first as teammate in a generic simulation

That'd be Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Duncan imho

[Infinite_limit]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2015/05/28/lebron-james-michael-jordan/28056173/

LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

By Shawn Windsor, Detroit Free Press
James doesn't even have a reliable jump shot :lol

[Malik Hairston]

James doesn't even have a reliable jump shot :lol

Strange comment, considering Lebron is a better 3-point shooter than DK was, 3s > inefficient, mid-range jump shots:lol..

[K...]

I still maintain, if your best player overall is not a big you don't understand basketball. Jordan is a historical important player who won in the most impressive way. For that he's generally allowed to be considered the best-it's an exception. LeBron is a quasi big but I still think the rule works against him.


Part of the problem is this, some people see LeBron based on his talent, which probably is all time best, a perfect combination of size and speed. But basketball is a skills league. So another group sees LeBron as his actual career which is great in some ways, average in others.


Finally you got guys like me who look at LeBron by his failures. Maybe as time goes by the dumb stuff gets forgotten. Jordan is pretty whitewashed; no body cares about his bad side. But shouldn't all time great have no faults? How can greatest of all time be so controversial?

[K...]

Strange comment, considering Lebron is a better 3-point shooter than DK was, 3s > inefficient, mid-range jump shots:lol..

It was the style at the time

[Infinite_limit]

Strange comment, considering Lebron is a better 3-point shooter than DK was, 3s > inefficient, mid-range jump shots:lol..
Playoffs
2PT%: Jordan
3PT%: Jordan
FT%: Jordan


Get the fuck outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder :lol


James = 15 PPG in the 90s

[K...]

Haha I love the random quote about Kobe

"The one guy who cares about that time period"

[Malik Hairston]

Playoffs
2PT%: Jordan
3PT%: Jordan
FT%: Jordan


Get the fuck outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder :lol


James = 15 PPG in the 90s

They have virtually the same 3-point % in the playoffs(33 vs. 32%), but Lebron shoots way more 3s(4 per game vs. 2.5)..stop:lol..

[Infinite_limit]

They have virtually the same 3-point % in the playoffs(33 vs. 32%), but Lebron shoots way more 3s(4 per game vs. 2.5)..stop:lol..
James is the current day version of Tim Thomas. Layups or jack up 3s. Lacks the offensive skill set to do much else

[Malik Hairston]

Lebron has played vs. 16 top 5 defenses in the playoffs, so far, through 10 playoff runs..Jordan played vs. 16, as well, through 12 playoff runs..obviously, Lebron is going to add more to the list, as he has many years remaining..

Would have been interesting to see Jordan go against great defenses of his time more often, tbh..he only played against the #1 ranked defense in the league twice throughout his entire career:wow(Lebron has already done it 5 times)..IIRC the 1993 Knicks and 1997 Heat..

[Infinite_limit]

Lebron has played vs. 16 top 5 defenses in the playoffs, so far, through 10 playoff runs..Jordan played vs. 16, as well, through 12 playoff runs..obviously, Lebron is going to add more to the list, as he has many years remaining..

Would have been interesting to see Jordan go against great defenses of his time more often, tbh..he only played against the #1 ranked defense in the league twice throughout his entire career:wow(Lebron has already done it 5 times)..
James is definitely the Greatest player since Kobe Bryant

[Malik Hairston]

Even Kobe went up against 4 #1 ranked defenses, tbh:lol..

[cantthinkofanything]

The gap between the two Is actually a lot closer than people think. Jordan is getting more and more overrated in which he is some kind of God that can do no wrong. He's still obviously one of the best, if not outright the best, of all time, but he isn't really head and shoulders above everybody else like what most people say.

Look at the teams he won with, they were unorthodox in the makeup and have all the components ideally constructed to amplify Jordan's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

Fuck Lebron. he's no Jordan.

That being said, both have some asterisks by thier legacy.

Jordan's titles came against a couple of good teams but he missed most of the dynasties.
Until Detroit fell apart, the Bulls couldn't even get to the Finals. Then they never had to play the Duncan Spurs or the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. They also only caught Showtime Lakers on their last legs.

And Lebron is making all these finals in the god awful East.

But seeing them both play, Jordan is hands down the GOAT.

[Infinite_limit]

Fuck Lebron. he's no Jordan.

That being said, both have some asterisks by thier legacy.

Jordan's titles came against a couple of good teams but he missed most of the dynasties.
Until Detroit fell apart, the Bulls couldn't even get to the Finals. Then they never had to play the Duncan Spurs or the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. They also only caught Showtime Lakers on their last legs.

And Lebron is making all these finals in the god awful East.

But seeing them both play, Jordan is hands down the GOAT.
If the Bulls don't run Shaq off the floor in 1996, he never goes West. Jordan played the Penny/Shaq Magic. Nothing would change playing the Kobe version

Duncan Spurs. Meh, he battled Malone and Barkley. No offense but those teams would have multiple titles in the 2000's/Current Day

[Alex's foreskin]

LeBron got shut down by the likes of Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Jason Terry, Dashawn Stevensen, Shawn Marion, Tony Allen in the playoffs :lol

[Infinite_limit]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Shaq
4. James

[Malik Hairston]

LeBron got shut down by the likes of Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Jason Terry, Dashawn Stevensen, Shawn Marion, Tony Allen in the playoffs :lol

Marion and Allen(when was this?) are great defenders, and Lebron completely annihilated the Magic defense(one of the best performances in league history)..Stephenson is true, though, although most of Jordan's 90s defensive opponents were midgets, or at least undersized:lol..

[~O~]

Ever thought of Jordan possessing the same body type as LeBron James? That guy would probably have a statue in front of the white house and Oxford University if that was the case.

[~O~]

Hell, he'd probably have 15 championships lol.

[Malik Hairston]

Ever thought of Jordan possessing the same body type as LeBron James? That guy would probably have a statue in front of the white house and Oxford University if that was the case.

Jordan was arguably the most athletic wing player of all-time..if you took away his athleticism, he would have never even sniffed the NBA..anybody can play that game:lol..

[Alex's foreskin]

Marion and Allen(when was this?) are great defenders, and Lebron completely annihilated the Magic defense(one of the best performances in league history)..Stephenson is true, though, although most of Jordan's 90s defensive opponents were 6'2", or at least undersized:lol..

Tony Allen was on that Boston team LeBron lost to the playoffs before he joined Miami. LeBron still had around 25 turnovers that series against Orlando.

[cantthinkofanything]

If the Bulls don't run Shaq off the floor in 1996, he never goes West. Jordan played the Penny/Shaq Magic. Nothing would change playing the Kobe version

Duncan Spurs. Meh, he battled Malone and Barkley. No offense but those teams would have multiple titles in the 2000's/Current Day

Just saying he wouldn't be 6 for 6 with two threepeats.
Those teams wouldn't be intact in today's watered down NBA. The Jazz were damn good though back in the day.

[Malik Hairston]

If the Bulls don't run Shaq off the floor in 1996, he never goes West. Jordan played the Penny/Shaq Magic. Nothing would change playing the Kobe version

Duncan Spurs. Meh, he battled Malone and Barkley. No offense but those teams would have multiple titles in the 2000's/Current Day

:lmao

1998 Utah Jazz: 17th ranked defense in the NBA

:lmao

[Malik Hairston]

Jordan:

- Better post game (although it was mostly against tiny defenders)
- Better mid-range shooter
- Better ball-handler
- Better at getting his own father killed(although he wins this by default vs LeBron)

[hitmanyr2k]

Weak era to be honest.

Lebron's competition in '13, '14 and '15...

'13

Sub .500 Bucks team with no star power.

A Bulls team held together by chewing gum and scotch tape playing 2nd and 3rd stringers.

Overrated, dumb turnover happy Pacers team with third year rising star Paul George and a walking stiff at center in Hibbert.

'14

A terrible Bobcats team with hobbled Al Jefferson

A terrible Nets team with a rookie coach in Jason Kidd

The same dumb, turnover happy Pacers team with inconsistent Paul George and a walking stiff at center in Hibbert.

'15

A terrible sub .500 Celtics team

Once again an injured Bulls team

Overrated injured Hawks team

http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg

[Malik Hairston]

Weak era to be honest.

Lebron's competition in '13, '14 and '15...

'13

Sub .500 Bucks team with no star power.

A Bulls team held together by chewing gum and scotch tape playing 2nd and 3rd stringers.

Overrated, dumb turnover happy Pacers team with third year rising star Paul George and a walking stiff at center in Hibbert.

'14

A terrible Bobcats team with hobbled Al Jefferson

A terrible Nets team with a rookie coach in Jason Kidd

The same dumb, turnover happy Pacers team with inconsistent Paul George and a walking stiff at center in Hibbert.

'15

A terrible sub .500 Celtics team

Once again an injured Bulls team

Overrated injured Hawks team

http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg

You know that if you extrapolate for the lockout season, Lebron has defeated 9 50-win teams, while Jordan at the same point in his career only beat 10, right?:lol..

Not to mention Lebron has went up against the same number of top-5 defenses as Jordan, despite having years and years remaining..

[Infinite_limit]

You know that if you extrapolate for the lockout season, Lebron has defeated 9 50-win teams, while Jordan at the same point in his career only beat 10, right?:lol..

Not to mention Lebron has went up against the same number of top-5 defenses as Jordan, despite having years and years remaining..
Not all stats/records are created equal

Team W-L ranks higher than Top-5 defenses. Beyond what does "Top-5 defense" even mean. Opponent PPG? Opponent Shooting%? Most Turnovers? Most players on All-Defense lists?

[Malik Hairston]

Not all stats/records are created equal

Team W-L ranks higher than Top-5 defenses. Beyond what does "Top-5 defense" even mean. Opponent PPG? Opponent Shooting%? Most Turnovers? Most players on All-Defense lists?

It means you ranked as 1 of the top 5 defenses in that year:lol..

[Killakobe81]

The gap between the two Is actually a lot closer than people think. Jordan is getting more and more overrated in which he is some kind of God that can do no wrong. He's still obviously one of the best, if not outright the best, of all time, but he isn't really head and shoulders above everybody else like what most people say.

Look at the teams he won with, they were unorthodox in the makeup and have all the components ideally constructed to amplify Jordan's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

We dont always agree but I'm with Amb.
MJ is still my GOAT but Lebron can take some steps up Mt Olympus with another ring. And again MJ is my GOAT but cases can be made, for Magic, Kareem, Duncan and with a few more rings Lebron.

[Infinite_limit]

It means you ranked as 1 of the top 5 defenses in that year:lol..
Nooooo

[Clipper Nation]

James doesn't even have a reliable jump shot :lol
Stern moved the three-point line in to inflate DK's horrible career 3PT% :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Jordan:

- Better post game (although it was mostly against tiny defenders)
- Better mid-range shooter
- Better ball-handler
- Better at getting his own father killed(although he wins this by default vs LeBron)
- Better at sucking off Stern to get the rulebook changed for him and every call/no-call from the refs
- Better at getting suspended for gambling

[Alex's foreskin]

We dont always agree but I'm with Amb.
MJ is still my GOAT but Lebron can take some steps up Mt Olympus with another ring. And again MJ is my GOAT but cases can be made, for Magic, Kareem, Duncan and with a few more rings Lebron.

Duncan got outplayed by a teammate in 3 of his 5 titles. :lol

[ambchang]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2015/05/28/lebron-james-michael-jordan/28056173/

LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

By Shawn Windsor, Detroit Free Press

That piece was horrible, really.

Multiple logical contradictions, where he would point out the teams Jordan won with, but not those Lebron won with (I mean, Wade, Bosh, Allen, and a whole bunch of strong role players assembled by the godfather himself). Then he'd make fun of Jordan's competition (Barkley was weak competition? Stockton was weak competition), without mentioning Drexler, Magic, Worthy, Penny Hardaway, Payton, Kemp, and Malone? Not to mention having Lebron making 6 finals as an accomplishment when he had to go through absolute crap in the East (the best competition he had in the East was Detroit or Boston).

And Lebron playing the Spurs three times? Yeah, he lost twice. And Leonard as the best perimeter defender ever? He got embarrassed by Matt Barnes, Matt Barnes, not once, not twice, but multiple times in the same series. I still love Leonard, I think he has a bright future ahead of him if he can be more selfish and start to take over games consistently, he can be a multiple times all star, but he's NOT the best perimeter defender of all time. Pippen, Moncrief, Cooper, Payton, Bowen, Artest, or even Rodman all have a thing to say about that.

People have to understand, the game is more than athletic ability. If it was just athletic abilities, Stromile Swift would be the best PF of all time, not Duncan, Magic and Bird and Duncan and Russell wouldn't be in the top 10.

The game is a lot more than that. Marc Gasol is doing well in today's league, Harden isn't overly athletic, Curry is a great shooter but I wouldn't call him the greatest athlete.

[Sean Cagney]

Playoffs
2PT%: Jordan
3PT%: Jordan
FT%: Jordan


Get the fuck outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder :lol


James = 15 PPG in the 90s

Don't even get me started on Finals stats either, no comparison when it comes to Jordan in the playoffs. I never saw Jordan scared and choking in a series like I have seen Lebron against Dallas and game 6 against the Spurs, he got let off the hook in that one though. Lebron doesn't have that killer instinct Jordan had, he gets passive at times or looks scared.

[Phillip]

LeBron got shut down by the likes of Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Jason Terry, Dashawn Stevensen, Shawn Marion, Tony Allen in the playoffs :lol

Are you retarded? Not a single one of those guys shut him down, except MAYBE Shawn Marion.

[Tuddy]

The thing that will always keep him behind was taking 7 or 8 seasons to develop a Jumper. Peak is pretty close though.

[Ice009]

Ever thought of Jordan possessing the same body type as LeBron James? That guy would probably have a statue in front of the white house and Oxford University if that was the case.

Well there was a guy called Len Bias who was maybe even more athletic than Michael Jordan and he was also bigger. His body size was probably in between Michael Jordan and Lebron, but unfortunately he didn't get to play an NBA game as he died beforehand after getting drafted as the Celtics' first pick. I really would have loved to have seen Len play in the NBA.

The other thing about Len is that he had great jumpshot. From the Youtube videos I've watched, his jumpshot looked so feathery soft and smooth. Looked like a better shooter than both Michael and Lebron.

[spurraider21]

James doesn't even have a reliable jump shot :lol


Playoffs
2PT%: Jordan
3PT%: Jordan
FT%: Jordan


Get the fuck outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder :lol


James = 15 PPG in the 90s


James is the current day version of Tim Thomas. Layups or jack up 3s. Lacks the offensive skill set to do much else
how much did this sting, tbh?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGVVqGpydFc

[dbreiden83080]

"You know, Jordan couldn't have led this team to the Finals"

Is he for fucking real?

I have been watching the NBA since the early 90's and the east is the worst I have ever seen..

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan:

- Better post game (although it was mostly against tiny defenders)
- Better mid-range shooter
- Better ball-handler
- Better at getting his own father killed(although he wins this by default vs LeBron)

Jordan was the most mentally tough player of all time.. He was a fucking beast out there when it came to winning at all costs.. Lebron has flubbed so many big spots in the playoffs, missed so many big shots, 2-4 in the finals coming up..

Jordan is the GOAT!!

[midnightpulp]

I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing competition was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan got outplayed by a teammate in 3 of his 5 titles. :lol

Not true.

What is true is that Kobe got outplayed by a teammate during 4 of his 5 title runs.

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan got outplayed by a teammate in 3 of his 5 titles. :lol

Magic- 3 finals MVP'S in 5 titles

[midnightpulp]

I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing competition was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.

Bump for the page turn, since I actually spent a few minutes typing this out.

[Killakobe81]

I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing competition was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.

Great post Mid when you are on you are on. Sometimes, I wonder why you slum/troll with some of your stuff. You are a fine writer. Even if you get misguided from time to time. Props. Please more of this and less of the poo slinging.

[cutewizard]

for me , the greatest was Chamberlain

[TDfan2007]

Bump for the page turn, since I actually spent a few minutes typing this out.

:tu

[lefty]

Bird shits on those 2 clowns

[Clipper Nation]

Not true.

What is true is that Kobe got outplayed by all of his teammates during 5 of his 5 title runs.
FIFY

[TDfan2007]

Let's break it down:

Scoring: Jordan

Jordan was one of the greatest scorers that the game has ever seen, if not the greatest. His midrange game was a thing of beauty, and he had almost otherworldly aerial coordination when attacking the basket. Later in his career he also added a formidable high post/low post game to his repertoire. As a scorer, Jordan had virtually no weaknesses other than a mediocre 3 point shot, but he clearly didn't need one to be effective, and opponents could not use that weakness against him.

As good as Jordan was as a scorer, LeBron is not too far behind. He's probably a better 3 point shooter than Jordan, but isn't nearly as effective as a mid-range or pull-up shooter or post player. In terms of attacking the basket, LeBron is just about on par with Jordan, albeit through different means. Jordan attacked the rim with graceful explosiveness, while LeBron goes more for the freight train approach. The two factors holding LeBron back here are his blatant travelling and the fact that he never had to deal with the type of punishment and physicality that Jordan had to while attacking the basket.


Ball-handling: Jordan

Aside from his post game, this is the only area where I feel LeBron has been mildly underwhelming, but one must remember that he's 6'8'' 260+ lbs. LeBron is a good ball-handler, but he often doesn't use it in his scoring moves.

Jordan was an exceptional ball handler with a solid crossover and spectacular in-and-out dribble. He also excelled at scoring off of multiple dribble moves.


Passing: LeBron

This is not really debatable, so I'll only say that LeBron is right up there with Bird in terms of wing players who were lethal scorers and playmakers.


Rebounding: LeBron

One guy is 6' 6'' and never played PF a day in his life. The other guy is 6' 8'', built like a truck, and effectively played PF for a good chunk of 2 title runs. You do the math.


Defense: Wash

I haven't seen enough games from Jordan to comment on his defensive consistency, but I know that when he was locked in he was probably the second-best perimeter defender in the league behind Scottie. He could play the passing lanes, lock you up one-on-one, and gave perfect help against would-be drivers or post players.

As for LeBron, he really blossomed as a defensive player in his last year or so with Cleveland, and in his first 2 years in Miami. Otherwise, his defense has been spotty effort-wise, especially in the last few years. However, when LeBron is engaged, it's incredibly difficult to score on him. He can guard the 1-4 effectively due to his unique combo of size, speed, and quickness. Although he's not as solid of a help defender as Michael, LeBron's defensive versatility definitely makes up for it, making this category a draw IMO.


Intangibles: Jordan

Often times with Jordan we get caught up in his myth, but there was a lot of truth to it. The man was, and continues to be, a competitor to a pathological degree. He wanted to destroy his opponent every night, and seemingly never took a game or even a play off. Jordan also produced amazingly on the games biggest stage, as he owns some of the most spectacularly efficient postseason and finals runs in NBA history. However, it's not all roses here, as Jordan's somewhat sociopathic approach to competition alienated his fare share of teammates.

While he may not be as competitive as Jordan was, LeBron s a caring and relatively unselfish teammate. Guys love playing with him mainly because he just makes them look better. Playing with LeBron as a shooter is like walking into a buffet, and guys know it. One dimensional shooters like Mike Miller and James Jones have LeBron to thank for extending their careers. Like Jordan, LeBron is also a legendary playoff performer. His 2009 series against Orlando is one of the greatest individual series performances is league history, and that's just the beginning of LeBron's laundry list of brilliant playoff moments. Unfortunately, LeBron's 2-3 Finals record is a blemish, especially when considering how poorly he played it 2 of those Finals losses. The other knock on LeBron from an intagible/teammate perspective is his diva personality.


Overall: Jordan

Jordan is the game's greatest ever scorer and competitor. He had next to no weaknesses and achieved a level of success unmatched by anyone not named Bill Russel. LeBron, on the other hand, is the NBA lovechild of Magic and Michael, a great scorer who is an equally lethal playmaker. Unfortunately, when guys are this close talent-wise, the rings and accolades must be used to distinguish them. Jordan achieved greater success, both within the team and individually, and did so in an era that was much tougher on guards rule-wise. For that, I give him the nod.

[spurraider21]

intangibles aka i need a bs subjective tiebreaker so my guy can "win" the comparison

[Alex's foreskin]

FIFY

You should be banned from commenting on anything NBA related beyond the second round.

[TDfan2007]

intangibles aka i need a bs subjective tiebreaker so my guy can "win" the comparison

You don't believe in using concepts such as leadership when comparing players in a team sport?

[midnightpulp]

Great post Mid when you are on you are on. Sometimes, I wonder why you slum/troll with some of your stuff. You are a fine writer. Even if you get misguided from time to time. Props. Please more of this and less of the poo slinging.

Thanks, brother.

I wasn't trolling with my latest Kobe post, though. The Gasol/Kobe's Legacy post and the like are troll posts.

[spurraider21]

You don't believe in using concepts such as leadership when comparing players in a team sport?
i dont see an objective way to say MJ was definitively better than LeBron in that regard

[TDfan2007]

i dont see an objective way to say MJ was definitively better than LeBron in that regard

This is true, but I never claimed objectivity. They're called intangibles for a reason...difficult to interpret objectively, but still an important part of the game

[Malik Hairston]

Damn, Billy knew it all along, tbh..

[Infinite_limit]

Damn, Billy knew it all along, tbh..
I think James just bombed another fadeaway airball

[Thebesteva]

C'mon OP, you know Bill hates MJ with passion. Why don't we ask Raja Bell who he thinks is better in the meantime, Kobe or Lebron

[AlexJones]

C'mon OP, you know Bill hates MJ with passion. Why don't we ask Raja Bell who he thinks is better in the meantime, Kobe or Lebron

Bell loves Kobe actually, they've been trying to team up together for years after that 06 series. So try again

I pointed it out before, Kobe has a weird obsession with players that he fought with.. Bell, Artest, Barnes :lol

[Thebesteva]

Bell loves Kobe actually, they've been trying to team up together for years after that 06 series. So try again

That was one fluke year where Kobe tried to recruit him, legend has it he repaid Raja for the clothesline