pics you wont see on TV

[NiNi]

The devistation of hurricane Katherina has been all over the news, even showing some of the dead. I was looking at the hostage footage and ran across these pics. They are close up pictures of the dead laying right where mother nature last left them.

They are horrible pictures that makes me even more irate that the government didnt do anything to help get these people out. I cant even comprehend what they had to go through the last minutes of their lives.

I dont like the idea that these people are broadcasted where they lay, and I am broadcasting them more, but this really shows you how devistating this event was, and hopefully it will move you like it moved me to rise up and get answers from the government and make sure they pay for the lives that they left behind for mother natures wrath.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/floating_and_decomposing_bodies_in_new_orleans_hur ricane_katrina_victims_Sep_09_2005.html

[hussker]

The refusees should have heeded the warnings, but they did not.

[spurs=bling]

:vomit :vomit :vomit :vomit :vomit :vomit

[NiNi]

some couldnt, the government is supposed to help us that is why they are there

[TOP-CHERRY]

some couldnt, the government is supposed to help us that is why they are there
The local government, you mean. They're the ones responsible for organizing city evacuations before a hurricane.

[hussker]

The Government has fooled those who believe it that they cannot think and act for themselves. Poor refusees...

[hussker]

The local government, you mean. They're the ones responsible for organizing city evacuations before a hurricane.
Thanks TOP!

[NiNi]

The local government, you mean. They're the ones responsible for organizing city evacuations before a hurricane.
true true, but they didnt act. IT is partly the people's fault for not doing everything in their power to get out, but when they couldnt there still should have been something to fall back on. mayor should have utilized the bus system

[TOP-CHERRY]

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg
All under water. Great use, huh?!

[hussker]

true true, but they didnt act. IT is partly the people's fault for not doing everything in their power to get out, but when they couldnt there still should have been something to fall back on. mayor should have utilized the bus system

The people sure became resourceful getting the hell out of there AFTER the flood started...Hindsight is 20/20 for everyone

[hussker]

Mayor is the blame, if we dare point fingers

[TheWriter]

Yeah, the Goverment certainly can't control state and city government, only if you're a brain dead white woman.

Hussker, if you're going to be a fucking cynical asshole, then atleast spell refugees correctly.

[hussker]

Yeah, the Goverment certainly can't control state and city government, only if you're a brain dead white woman.

Hussker, if you're going to be a fucking cynical asshole, then atleast spell refugees correctly.

I strive to be PC, yet I am a realist, not a FCA.

Refugees and refusees are a bit different. I did not mean refugees...we in America surely do not want to call them that!

Evacuees LEFT WHEN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO. In a sentence; "Billy and his family were evacuees from NOLA and left when they were told that the impending doom of a possible CAT 5 Hurricane was heading toward them."

REFUSEE - Those who refused to leave and stayed behind. In a sentence; "Billy's cousin and her family are refusees as they were able to climb onto a stolen bread truck, drive past the submerged school buses in NOLA, and make it to Texas"

[NiNi]

The people sure became resourceful getting the hell out of there AFTER the flood started...Hindsight is 20/20 for everyone

i understand and agree with you on that.... it just makes me mad cause the local government had the resources to get them out and didnt use them, thats why i blame them mostly, not that it is all their fault but they had the resourses from the beginning and just let it lie.

[TheWriter]

Refugees and refusees are a bit different. I did not mean refugees...we in America surely do not want to call them that!

Why not? A refugee is someone who is seeks refuge and safety. Which is what they were doing. They're no longer refugees but they were.


Evacuees LEFT WHEN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO.

Yeah, the day the damn thing hit. Did you see that all day congestion. Many people stayed just because of that crap. They stayed in their homes or in the Superdome.


In a sentence; "Billy and his family were evacuees from NOLA and left when they were told that the impending doom of a possible CAT 5 Hurricane was heading toward them."

Billy and his family were able to. But in the real world, not everyone is granted such a situation.


REFUSEE - Those who refused to leave and stayed behind. In a sentence; "Billy's cousin and her family are refusees as they were able to climb onto a stolen bread truck, drive past the submerged school buses in NOLA, and make it to Texas"

Dude, just because you're a dickhead doesn't mean you have power to create words out of thin air.

Yes a lot refused. But just because they refused doesn't mean they're worthless or shouldn't be taken care of.

The Hurricane itself didn't cause too much death and damage in New Orleans, it was the dams breaking that did 90% of the damage.

Had those dams held like the levees, then we wouldn't even be having this convo.i

[hussker]

All those buses...hmmmm
Refusee....I like that.
You see, You don't HAVE to live like a refusee....

[hussker]

Just do not blame me for misspelling words due to your inability to get it...
All those buses...My goodness

[TheWriter]

All those buses...hmmmm
Refusee....I like that.
You see, You don't HAVE to live like a refusee....

Dude, go put your bike helmet on. The short bus should be by your house any second now. In the bus you can lick all the windows you want.

[hussker]

And all of the profanity...Surely you are not one of those nice liberal people who believes in free everything! Hey...MAybe if you could make up some new words, we might not mistake the ones you use (curse words) for ignorance.

[Summers]

Seriously, Hussker, you're being astonishingly insensitive. If you're trying to be funny, it's not funny. You're a grown-ass man. I would expect comments like this from a punk teenage boy who hasn't learned any empathy or compassion yet. What is wrong with you?

[TheWriter]

Just do not blame me for misspelling words due to your inability to get it...
All those buses...My goodness

All those buses, and not one used. Blame city and state for that.

But never the less it does not change the fact that many have died, many because the governemtn was too fucking slow and inept to do shit about it. Because we have a fucking dumbass for a President who goes and gives his "buddies" jobs like FEMA director.

Fucking bullshit.

[hussker]

Dude, go put your bike helmet on. The short bus should be by your house any second now. In the bus you can lick all the windows you want.

BUT..You cannot lick the windows on an NO school bus...Too much E.coli

[TheWriter]

And all of the profanity...Surely you are not one of those nice liberal people who believes in free everything! Hey...MAybe if you could make up some new words, we might not mistake the ones you use (curse words) for ignorance.

Refusees... fucking :lol :lol

Did it take you the past week to come up with that jewel?

[TheWriter]

BUT..You cannot lick the windows on an NO school bus...Too much E.coli

Which is why you should have a go at it.

[TheWriter]

Seriously, Hussker, you're being astonishingly insensitive. If you're trying to be funny, it's not funny. You're a grown-ass man. I would expect comments like this from a punk teenage boy who hasn't learned any empathy or compassion yet. What is wrong with you?

He probably is a punk ass teenage boy. So fucking desensitised from the world. Must have been all those late nights of pimple popping and AOL chatroom rejections.

[NiNi]

Writer.... i agree

[hussker]

No, sadly I am an adult who pays taxes and will be payingt taxes to pay for the refusees' mistakes and that of their local government who was unable, excuse me, unwilling, to take care of them...all those buses...

[TheWriter]

No, sadly I am an adult who pays taxes and will be payingt taxes to pay for the refusees' mistakes and that of their local government who was unable, excuse me, unwilling, to take care of them...all those buses...

You know you'll be paying for the people who did leave before the storm but whose house's are still underwater or completely destoryed (all along the gulf coast.)

So get ready big boy! You wanna be payin' taxes.

[hussker]

I imagine Halliburton has the contracts on those buses...see, I hit both sides equally. And no profanity! WOW

[TheWriter]

I imagine Halliburton has the contracts on those buses...see, I hit both sides equally. And no profanity! WOW

WOW! Good for you. Maybe you can call some uptight group who can censor my fucking words over the internet because you don't like freedom of speech.

Fuck you, you fucking douche mother fucking cunt licking asshole blowing dick sucking fuckhead. :smokin :spin

[tw05baller]

..

[RandomGuy]

The refusees should have heeded the warnings, but they did not.


Ah blame the victim. They are *always* the ones at fault. :rolleyes

Unless of course they were too old, or didn't happen to have a summer home in colorado to go to.

Pfft. What about the people who didn't own cars? What about those who had to stay because it was their job? Are they ALL at fault?

[hussker]

You know you'll be paying for the people who did leave before the storm but whose house's are still underwater or completely destoryed (all along the gulf coast.)

So get ready big boy! You wanna be payin' taxes.

Let me see if I understand...'what?". I am assuming you are not my age, so, my friend, that is your tax bill as well. Remember to ask the refusees you see toting their new plasma tv's they purchased from Best Buy with their new debit cards if you can help give a hand. Sorry, but there should have been a quick financial responsibility class before handing out 2K, more than some of these folks paid in taxes themselves last yr.

[TheWriter]

Let me see if I understand...'what?". I am assuming you are not my age, so, my friend, that is your tax bill as well. Remember to ask the refusees you see toting their new plasma tv's they purchased from Best Buy with their new debit cards if you can help give a hand. Sorry, but there should have been a quick financial responsibility class before handing out 2K, more than some of these folks paid in taxes themselves last yr.

2K. Let them have two fucking thousands dollars. They've just lost their entire life. What the fuck is 2 thousands dollars gonna get them? A fucking mansion?

Who's going to buy a plasma when they have no home to put in it.

You my friend need a serious ass kicking.

[RandomGuy]

The Government has fooled those who believe it that they cannot think and act for themselves. Poor refusees...

The government is where we pool our collective resources to do things that we can't do on our own.

That is the reason that corporations came into existance. Railroads can't be built without pooled capital. Supertankers can't be built without pooled capital. Billion dollar oil platforms... etc etc.

[hussker]

WOW! Good for you. Maybe you can call some uptight group who can censor my fucking words over the internet because you don't like freedom of speech.

Fuck you, you fucking douche mother fucking cunt licking asshole blowing dick sucking fuckhead. :smokin :spin

Took alot to come up with all of those very impressive words! Quite the thesaurus you have there Writer (certainly you are writing on emotion, not intellect). Hmm, I am thinking IQ near the main, maybe just the the left of it if not 1 SD below, but just a guess. Is this Martin Lawrence! Oh my, I just figured it out! MAR-TIN!!! MY MAN! Ditto to those of you who love his postings. Martin, you have built quite a following!

[TheWriter]

Ah blame the victim. They are *always* the ones at fault. :rolleyes

Unless of course they were too old, or didn't happen to have a summer home in colorado to go to.

Pfft. What about the people who didn't own cars? What about those who had to stay because it was their job? Are they ALL at fault?

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em hard and good.

Fuck the children. Fuck the wheelcar bound. Fuck the homeless. Fuck the elderly. Fuck the mentally challenged. Fuck the owners of businesses. Fuck the employees of hotels. Fuck the tourists. Fuck the gullible residents who didnt think the storm's aftermatch would be so bad. Fuck 'em all!

[hussker]

The government is where we pool our collective resources to do things that we can't do on our own.

That is the reason that corporations came into existance. Railroads can't be built without pooled capital. Supertankers can't be built without pooled capital. Billion dollar oil platforms... etc etc.

Existence...and we can get out of the way of a hurricane on our own, even if it means walking (or starting up some school buses in our city...way to go Mayor Nagin!!!!)

[hussker]

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em hard and good.

Fuck the children. Fuck the wheelcar bound. Fuck the homeless. Fuck the elderly. Fuck the mentally challenged. Fuck the owners of businesses. Fuck the employees of hotels. Fuck the tourists. Fuck 'em all!

Wow, I hope you are getting plenty of condoms Writer! ( A little Cialis might help too)

[RandomGuy]

The local government, you mean. They're the ones responsible for organizing city evacuations before a hurricane.

And the federal government should have been there from waaay before this.
But that would have meant Bush might have had to have interrupted his vacation for something trivial like a category 5 hurricane bearing down on the most vulnerable US coastal city...

Answer this one question:

Is it reasonable to expect that a category 5 hurricane and the damage massive, powerful storms do would overwhelm a city or even a state's worth of governmental resources?

[TheWriter]

Existence...and we can get out of the way of a hurricane on our own, even if it means walking (or starting up some school buses in our city...way to go Mayor Nagin!!!!)

Knock knock.

Who's there?

A disabled elderly woman who lives by herself.

What do you want?

A hurricane is about to hit my city. Can I stay with you?

Fuck you! - hUSKKER

[RandomGuy]

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg
All under water. Great use, huh?!

Quite valid. This was a very clear example of a resource not used by the local authorities.

[hussker]

Ah. I have been amused at your postings. Please have a restful evening and work on the vocabulary. Quite astonshing for such an educated group who has the world figured out! Thanks for being my future. I am in great hands (knowing I will be dead before you can lead anything...or vote)

[TheWriter]

And the federal government should have been there from waaay before this.
But that would have meant Bush might have had to have interrupted his vacation for something trivial like a category 5 hurricane bearing down on the most vulnerable US coastal city...

Answer this one question:

Is it reasonable to expect that a category 5 hurricane and the damage massive, powerful storms do would overwhelm a city or even a state's worth of governmental resources?

The federal government doesn't care about local city and state politics. Well, you know, unless your name is Terri and you're a brain dead white check.

[TheWriter]

Ah. I have been amused at your postings. Please have a restful evening and work on the vocabulary. Quite astonshing for such an educated group who has the world figured out! Thanks for being my future. I am in great hands (knowing I will be dead before you can lead anything...or vote)

And with that.

A big...

FUCK YOU!

To conclude tonights town hall meeting.

[RandomGuy]

i understand and agree with you on that.... it just makes me mad cause the local government had the resources to get them out and didnt use them, thats why i blame them mostly, not that it is all their fault but they had the resourses from the beginning and just let it lie.


It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that is the party line from the President's office would it?

Rove and the damage control team figured out a way to somehow make democrats seem more responsible for this than Republicans. You will note the relative lack of criticism for the Republican governors of the neighboring states from the white house...

[hussker]

Knock knock.

Who's there?

A disabled elderly woman who lives by herself.

What do you want?

A hurricane is about to hit my city. Can I stay with you?

Fuck you! - hUSKKER

Well, if she had come to my city I would surely have let her in, but she did not. See, through your displaced emotion you misunderstand my point. See, for her to be in my city and say that a hurricane was about to hit hers, means that she would have been an EVACUEE, not a REFUSEE...Hey, after housing all of the EVACUEES, I have to refer the REFUSEES to Kelly or Levi Strauss.

Please do not put profanity in my quotes, I do not use it. There are too many sensible words to use in their places. Thanks!

[hussker]

And with that.

A big...

FUCK YOU!

To conclude tonights town hall meeting.

I think writer likes to think of itself as a bukkake king (by the way, 15 points if you know what the word bukkake means...you have 5 minutes...and no, it is not a dirty word, just has dirty connotation)

[RandomGuy]

No, sadly I am an adult who pays taxes and will be payingt taxes to pay for the refusees' mistakes and that of their local government who was unable, excuse me, unwilling, to take care of them...all those buses...


...didn't have the capacity to get 500,000 people out of harm's way.

Nor did they have the capacity to lift critically ill or anything.

The other side of the coin is where were they supposed to go? Someplace else in the city? Someplace else in the state?

Outside of the state. Making this AT LEAST a regional problem. That elevates it well within the realm of the federal government.

There was failure at all levels here.

Is there or is there not an entire federal agency devoted to disaster and emergency management? Should there not have been SOME culpability on the part of the executive branch here?

[TheWriter]

I think writer likes to think of itself as a bukkake king (by the way, 15 points if you know what the word bukkake means...you have 5 minutes...and no, it is not a dirty word, just has dirty connotation)

Bukkake.

If I were GIG:

"When a motha fucka shoots his load all up on a bitches face. Let me go make a movie of that shit. Hold up."

[TOP-CHERRY]

And the federal government should have been there from waaay before this.
But that would have meant Bush might have had to have interrupted his vacation for something trivial like a category 5 hurricane bearing down on the most vulnerable US coastal city...

Answer this one question:

Is it reasonable to expect that a category 5 hurricane and the damage massive, powerful storms do would overwhelm a city or even a state's worth of governmental resources?
PLEEEEEEASE tell me you're not this naive!
The federal government should have been there way before this? Should have been where exactly?
Fixing the levees? Go take a government course before you start arguing about government. This is the STATE AND LOCAL government's job. NOT the federal government's. The fed govt is here to ASSIST WHEN ASKED TO.

[TheWriter]

PLEEEEEEASE tell me you're not this naive!
The federal government should have been there way before this? Should have been where exactly?
Fixing the levees? Go take a government course before you start arguing about government. This is the STATE AND LOCAL government's job. NOT the federal government's. The fed govt is here to ASSIST WHEN ASKED TO.

Yeah!

Sincerely,

http://noticias.hispavista.com/imagenes/internacional/2005/03/26/a20050326034440.jpg

[hussker]

...didn't have the capacity to get 500,000 people out of harm's way. DID TOO...SEE TOP CHERRY'S BUS PICS

Nor did they have the capacity to lift critically ill or anything. DID TOO...THEY GOt OUT IN FLOOD WATERS IN 3 DAYS
The other side of the coin is where were they supposed to go? Someplace else in the city? Someplace else in the state? THEY ARE NOW...

Outside of the state. Making this AT LEAST a regional problem. That elevates it well within the realm of the federal government. STATES HAVE SOVEREIGNTY UNTIL THEY ASK THE GOVT IN
There was failure at all levels here. BEGINNING AT THE BASIC LEVEL, MAYOR NAGIN AND THE GOV BLANCO
Is there or is there not an entire federal agency devoted to disaster and emergency management? Should there not have been SOME culpability on the part of the executive branch here? NOT INITIALLY, THEY ACTED WHEN SUMMONED TO DO SO...


My Responses are italicized...

[hussker]

PLEEEEEEASE tell me you're not this naive!
The federal government should have been there way before this? Should have been where exactly?
Fixing the levees? Go take a government course before you start arguing about government. This is the STATE AND LOCAL government's job. NOT the federal government's. The fed govt is here to ASSIST WHEN ASKED TO.

My point exactly TOP! Thanks...

Love that BUS picture...Talk about IRONY!

[RandomGuy]

Let me see if I understand...'what?". I am assuming you are not my age, so, my friend, that is your tax bill as well. Remember to ask the refusees you see toting their new plasma tv's they purchased from Best Buy with their new debit cards if you can help give a hand. Sorry, but there should have been a quick financial responsibility class before handing out 2K, more than some of these folks paid in taxes themselves last yr.

That is the most immoral thing I have heard you say yet.

Perhaps we should just shove them in ovens and be done with them?

Oh wait, I think I remember hearing something like this before....

``At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,'' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ``it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.''

``Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge.

``Plenty of prisons,'' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?''

``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.''

``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge.

``Both very busy, sir.''

``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.''

``Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,'' returned the gentleman, ``a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?''

``Nothing!'' Scrooge replied.

``You wish to be anonymous?''

``I wish to be left alone,'' said Scrooge. ``Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.''

``Many can't go there; and many would rather die.''

``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that.''

``But you might know it,'' observed the gentleman.

``It's not my business,'' Scrooge returned. ``It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!''


[I]``At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,'' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ``it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.''

[RandomGuy]

Existence...and we can get out of the way of a hurricane on our own, even if it means walking (or starting up some school buses in our city...way to go Mayor Nagin!!!!)


Walking speed is normally about 3 mph.

Hurricanes speed is generally close to 20 mph.

In two days you can walk if you move fast enough 120 miles, assuming you walk 80% of the time, have proper food and water, and are physically capable of doing so.

In two days a hurricane can move 480 miles. You lost the race to get out of the way, and are trapped on a highway built over a swamp in 150 mph winds. Ooops.

Nice try. You are trying to rationalize your immorality, and it doesn't work.

[RandomGuy]

PLEEEEEEASE tell me you're not this naive!
The federal government should have been there way before this? Should have been where exactly?
Fixing the levees? Go take a government course before you start arguing about government. This is the STATE AND LOCAL government's job. NOT the federal government's. The fed govt is here to ASSIST WHEN ASKED TO.

They knew where the storm was going more than 2 or three days BEFORE it hit landfall.

Federal relief didn't get to new orleans until almost a week AFTER.

They had at least 48 hours to get ready. Hell the Canadian Army got there before our federal government did.

Ahhh, so each state in the United states should have a fully stocked, emergency management agency, I see. 50 states duplicating each other's efforts in a massively wasteful way is MUCH better than a centralized, organized response that can help several states simultaneously. :rolleyes

[RandomGuy]

My Responses are italicized...


Gawd, you have sucked in the GOP talking points without doing any critical thinking for yourself. Not sure I can argue with that.

[RandomGuy]

So let me see if I get this straight...


You hold the federal government entirely 100% blameless for this?

The executive branch, controlled by the GOP had zero culpability for the failure of the response here?

I just want to know exactly what you are saying.

[TOP-CHERRY]

They knew where the storm was going more than 2 or three days BEFORE it hit landfall.
Tell that to the Mayor. Tell that to the governor.
As husker said, states have sovereignty. State and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVT. You seem to not understand that fact.
As said so by the New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response.


Federal relief didn't get to new orleans until almost a week AFTER.
I'm not saying the federal govt don't share blame. They do. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that they're not the biggest ones to blame.

The local and state govts had PLENTY of time to fix the levees. As you should already know, the levees breaking is what caused the most damage. Not the hurricane itself. Had they been fixed, a lot of lives could've been spared.


Ahhh, so each state in the United states should have a fully stocked, emergency management agency, I see. 50 states duplicating each other's efforts in a massively wasteful way is MUCH better than a centralized, organized response that can help several states simultaneously. :rolleyes
The city already had an emergency plan which was not put into use. See here:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

That "centralized, organized response" we call FEMA was formed to coordinate federal response to major disasters, and ASSIST local and state governments.

Tell me how the governor of Florida was able to successfully lead disaster responses to hurricanes and the Louisiana governor wasn't?

Another question: How well were the Louisiana National Guards put to use?

[RandomGuy]

If it's "democrats stupid, republicans blameless" go ahead and say it, so we can all know where you stand on this. Political balderdash that ignores the whole truth.

Jesus said quite a few other things about helping the poor that don't quite fit with "it sucks to be them".

I mean if you aren't much for Judeo-Christian ethics, say so, and I will stop.

"Be merciful just as your father is merciful. And do not judge and you will not be judged. And do not condemn and you will not be condemned. Pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you..."
Jesus said a lot about giving and not judging.

"Whoever receives this child in my name receives me."
Your actions towards your fellow man are basically your actions towards God.

Refugees or refusees, your duty as a human being is to help, not judge. If you give in to the smallness of spirit evidenced by "it sucks to be them" or similar, I can only pray for your soul.

[RandomGuy]

(my prior post was aimed more at hussker, just in case that isn't clear)

[RandomGuy]

Tell that to the Mayor. Tell that to the governor.
As husker said, states have sovereignty. State and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVT. You seem to not understand that fact.
As said so by the New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response.


I'm not saying the federal govt don't share blame. They do. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that they're not the biggest ones to blame.

The local and state govts had PLENTY of time to fix the levees. As you should already know, the levees breaking is what caused the most damage. Not the hurricane itself. Had they been fixed, a lot of lives could've been spared.


The city already had an emergency plan which was not put into use. See here:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

That "centralized, organized response" we call FEMA was formed to coordinate federal response to major disasters, and ASSIST local and state governments.

Tell me how the governor of Florida was able to successfully lead disaster responses to hurricanes and the Louisiana governor wasn't?

Another question: How well were the Louisiana National Guards put to use?


I think we are more than half in agreement here.

I do understand that state and local governments have responsibilities in disasters, honest.

But what happens when a disaster is so bad that those governments stop functioning?

[TOP-CHERRY]

But what happens when a disaster is so bad that those governments stop functioning?
The real question is why they didn't prepare for a "so bad".

[NiNi]

exactly, they knew that a storm of this magnitude could hit the city, why didnt they prepare? cost too much, going to spend to much of the \states tax money? look at what they are gonna have to pay now, including the rest of the US not just louisiana

[Summers]

I think it's healthy to have a debate about where/if any mistakes or breakdowns were made in the chain of command in our government, so that if a disaster like this strikes our country again (as it surely will, unfortunately) we can all be better prepared. Everyone from teh President to the Mayor should sit down for one long film session on what went right and what went wrong.

But it's just plain wrong (and quite frankly, pointless) to blame the victims themselves, as Hussker has done. It's also crudely elitist to suggest the average hurricane victim is so stupid he or she will spend his or her FEMA money on high-end electronics rather than food, clothing, and other necessities.

Furthermore, our tax money goes toward a lot of things that not everyone agrees on. But we pay our taxes anyway. Some people don't have kids and feel like they shouldn't have to pay for public education. Too bad. Some people don't have cars and feel like they shouldn't have to pay for road maintenance. Too bad. It's over and done with and thousands of people are dead and many more thousands are left with nothing at all of their lives and because you feel you're smarter than them, Hussker, you don't think your taxes should help them out a little. Too bad.

[TOP-CHERRY]

I think it's healthy to have a debate about where/if any mistakes or breakdowns were made in the chain of command in our government, so that if a disaster like this strikes our country again (as it surely will, unfortunately) we can all be better prepared. Everyone from teh President to the Mayor should sit down for one long film session on what went right and what went wrong.

The Florida mayor didn't have to do that, though.

Anyway, yeah I agree people should learn about this so history doesn't repeat itself.

[Summers]

I think it would be refreshing if people would be willing to concede just a little when they turn this into a political debate. For example, I'm not a fan of the President, but I don't think he's racist and I don't think he took a callous toward New Orleans because it's mostly poor and black and I don't think he was disappointed about having to end (yet another) vacation to step in and try to get a handle on this.

By the same token if those of you who do like Bush would admit, just once in a while, that he's human and fallible, it would make it easier for people like me to admit that he possesses some positive qualities, like compassion and intelligence.

Here's what I'm getting at. One of the big revelations of this whole thing is that Michael Brown, who Bush appointed to head FEMA as a political favor, is wholly, woefully unqualified. Can you at least admit that it was terribly short-sighted of the President to appoint a man who had zero emergency management experience to head up an agency that might, in case a hurricane hit the Gulf coast, need to be expertly run? Are you willing to admit that if the right person had been in that position, things might have turned out a little bit differently?

[TOP-CHERRY]

You're asking me? Yeah, I agree w/ everything you said.

[Summers]

Whew! (You didn't think I expect Hussker to admit I might have a point, did you?) :lol

Well, then, turnabout's fair play. I completely agree with you that the mayor should've done everything within his power to help those who didn't have the means to get out by themselves.

[Useruser666]

Moving 50 miles inland makes a MAJOR difference when you are talking about hurricane damage and costal flooding.

[AFE7FATMAN]

They are horrible pictures that makes me even more irate that the government didnt do anything to help get these people out.
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/floating_and_decomposing_bodies_in_new_orleans_hur ricane_katrina_victims_Sep_09_2005.html

BINGO

This is the REASON the President, VP, Gov etc does not want them on TV
If everbody became even more irate, Congress, Bush, Nagian, Blanco would
take so much heat that maybe they would fix things or god forbide lose
votes(sheep)

If body bags of the folks from IRAQ, along with pics of those that have been maimed were shown on TV maybe we will get the H out of IRAQ, PDQ

In the 60's folks got tired of seeing soilders die on the evening news and this
was one of the reason for the revolt against the WAR.

I recently described myself as a reformed liberal.
I voted for Bush and I still choose him over the traitor Kerry,
but to put it mildly he is begining to PISS ME OFF
FIRE MR BROWN NOW, don't just kick him upstairs.
A President must choose good, experienced people.
He didn't/hasn't MAKE IT RIGHT.

[jochhejaam]

BINGO

This is the REASON the President, VP, Gov etc does not want them on TV
If everbody became even more irate, Congress, Bush, Nagian, Blanco would
take so much heat that maybe they would fix things or god forbide lose
votes(sheep)

What person in their right mind would want to see them on tv?


Go to "decomposed/bloatedbodies.com" to get your thrills. Only true nutcases believe that BS!

[AFE7FATMAN]

What person in their right mind would want to see them on tv?


Go to "decomposed/bloatedbodies.com" to get your thrills. Only true nutcases believe that BS!

I don't want to see them. I want people that have never seen bodies
like these to see them, maybe then they will help create so much H
that the next time a hurrican hits, people will get thier shit together.

BTW I zipped enough body bags in NAM. I also took all the new folks
that came to the unit to the Army morgue in order that when they felt like whinning about how it was the shit being in the AF, working in AC office
or on the flight line, they would be tankful they were not in the REAL FUCKING WAR but only subject to rockets, mortars, and 9 year old kids.


BTW JOCK FU and pardon the spelling I can't type when I'm pissed

[Dos]

I just wonder how many of those dead in the streets decided to ride the storm out, not that I am blaming them if they had no means to get out .. but we are still pulling people out of house's that decided not to leave... even after a recent order by nagin to get the hell out... to the point of using police force to get them out...

[jochhejaam]

BTW JOCK FU and pardon the spelling I can't type when I'm pissed


The spelling doesn't bother me nor does the FU.

Profanity directed at someone who disagrees with your position is indication of a lack of intelligence.

[hussker]

I think it would be refreshing if people would be willing to concede just a little when they turn this into a political debate. For example, I'm not a fan of the President, but I don't think he's racist and I don't think he took a callous toward New Orleans because it's mostly poor and black and I don't think he was disappointed about having to end (yet another) vacation to step in and try to get a handle on this.

By the same token if those of you who do like Bush would admit, just once in a while, that he's human and fallible, it would make it easier for people like me to admit that he possesses some positive qualities, like compassion and intelligence.

Here's what I'm getting at. One of the big revelations of this whole thing is that Michael Brown, who Bush appointed to head FEMA as a political favor, is wholly, woefully unqualified. Can you at least admit that it was terribly short-sighted of the President to appoint a man who had zero emergency management experience to head up an agency that might, in case a hurricane hit the Gulf coast, need to be expertly run? Are you willing to admit that if the right person had been in that position, things might have turned out a little bit differently?

I absolutely agree with that. And I am non-partisan, indeed. Best man/woman for the job. I just think it is a travesty when people begin finger pointing and blaming govt agencies for lack of action. I do give credit to the Mayor for the proactivity... he was proactive.

BUT...proactivity by one demands reactivity by others. Once there is no reactivity, then the proactive forces must FOLLOW UP. Most often left out step in any leadership role, regardless of the level, is the FOLLOW UP.

As far as bringing in Judeo-Christian ethics and morality, Jesus not only led, was not only proactive as God incarnate, but also followed up. He and the Father also hold people accountable for action/lack of action. I understand that certainly. Loving unconditionally does not mean ignoring lack of action or accountability. I will leave it at that.

Remember, God loves the Sinner but He hates the sin. Perhaps when some of us see what is going on and the behavior patterns of the refusees, we get locked into a "projection" mode.

Government is corrupt at nearly every level. Since the 1920's, Government has tried to play "Big Brother" and has left millions helpless.

If your parents hold your hand to cross the street everyday (figuratively speaking) until you are 21, you don't magically wake up as an adult and become able to do it yourself.

Government has created a vast amount of helpless people. BUT, this did not begin with this administration. It has festered for decades. Too much handholding indeed.

They can claim "no child left behind" but there are generations left way back.

As an aside, when debating, keep control of the emotions. Emotions are liars. They certainly block objectivity.

On these boards, we also miss the non verbals which make up most of the communicative process as we know it. I may write something in one tone and you may take it in another. I can do nothing about that. If there is a hint of sarcasm, you will miss it, as I will with you in your typed words.

Be healthy!

Hussker

[NiNi]

I I want people that have never seen bodies
like these to see them, maybe then they will help create so much H
that the next time a hurrican hits, people will get thier shit together.

EXACTLY. Alot of people are blaming the refugees poor choice not to evacuate for the number dead, I do hate that so many people lost their lives but pictures like these help us learn from past mistakes. Hopefully, people who might later be asked to evacuate will suddenly see flash backs of these horrible pictures and get the hell out. No one wants to end up like these people did.

[RandomGuy]

As far as bringing in Judeo-Christian ethics and morality, Jesus not only led, was not only proactive as God incarnate, but also followed up. He and the Father also hold people accountable for action/lack of action. I understand that certainly. Loving unconditionally does not mean ignoring lack of action or accountability. I will leave it at that.



Actually, loving unconditionally means ignoring lack of action or accountability. It is not your place to judge. Jesus would have extended a hand to the most depraved of looters, because it was the right thing to do. He basically said as much on numerous occasions.

Perhaps if you are ever on a ship and are "stupid" enough to refuse to fall into the ocean, you would prefer the ship not stop for you?

[RandomGuy]

Government is corrupt at nearly every level. Since the 1920's, Government has tried to play "Big Brother" and has left millions helpless.

If your parents hold your hand to cross the street everyday (figuratively speaking) until you are 21, you don't magically wake up as an adult and become able to do it yourself.

Government has created a vast amount of helpless people. BUT, this did not begin with this administration. It has festered for decades. Too much handholding indeed.

Hussker

Not sure I can argue with unsubstantiated dogma, but I can give it a whack.

Define "helpless".

I would put forth that government run programs have helped hundreds of millions of people at one point or another. It is simple investment in the most basic economic infrastructure: people.

Did the GI bill make all those veterans "helpless"? I didn't feel that way when I was taking advantage of it.

Does unemployment insurance make people helpless? Or does it keep people from being evicted if they lose a job and can't make the rent? The cost to society of NOT helping is FAR greater than ANY cheating of the system.

Pfft.

Your assertions of "helplessness" have no basis in fact, and I challenge you to find any.

[RandomGuy]

On these boards, we also miss the non verbals which make up most of the communicative process as we know it. I may write something in one tone and you may take it in another. I can do nothing about that. If there is a hint of sarcasm, you will miss it, as I will with you in your typed words.

Be healthy!

Hussker


Yup. I try to add in an occasional elipse and an emoticon or two. Reading things outloud to one's self usually helps. Not recommended for internet cafes...
Proof-reading something once through catches most of it.

[Sense]

WTF is up with that website.

[The Ressurrected One]

More pictures you won't see on T.V. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lancasterlife.com/images/fetus1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lancasterlife.com/dead_babies.html&h=294&w=254&sz=29&tbnid=tBqOJRgtUwgJ:&tbnh=111&tbnw=95&hl=en&start=18&prev=/images%3Fq%3DABORTED%2BFETUS%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3De n%26hs%3DAH0%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

[Nbadan]

Here are some more pictures you won't see on TV

http://static.flickr.com/32/42080948_17a2737620_o.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050907/capt.cafs10409072015.katrina_it_takes_a_network_ca fs104.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050907/capt.cafs10309072012.katrina_it_takes_a_network_ca fs103.jpg

You won't see these pictures on TV because the people in the pics aren't looters, or snipers, or rapists or anything else but hard working Americans, and if there is anything the GOP leadership fears most is the day it can no longer divide the populous low-class with fear of each other.

[Jelly]

Those were nice pictures Dan. Why do you have to spoil everything by injecting your partisan cynicism and hatred? Seriously.
And, by the way, the kind of people that would never want those pictures to be shown are the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

[hussker]

Those were nice pictures Dan. Why do you have to spoil everything by injecting your partisan cynicism and hatred? Seriously.
And, by the way, the kind of people that would never want those pictures to be shown are the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
:tu

[hussker]

Actually, loving unconditionally means ignoring lack of action or accountability. It is not your place to judge. Jesus would have extended a hand to the most depraved of looters, because it was the right thing to do. He basically said as much on numerous occasions.

Perhaps if you are ever on a ship and are "stupid" enough to refuse to fall into the ocean, you would prefer the ship not stop for you?

Sure...So what you are saying is that Jesus never held anyone accountable? Read your scriptures and I think you will find that is far from true, specifically in the gospels. Check out the behavior in the temples! That is what I call tough love and holding folks accountable.

And I have not "judged", as that is not my place to do so. If you find that I have, then call me on that. I have the right and obligation to judge situations, but no right to judge "people" for their choices. I do, however, believe in acknowledging accountability for those in leadership positions when they are charged to act. Why? I vote and exercise my voice that way (which many on here probably do not, due to age or complacency). As a voter, I hold elected officials to the highest of standards, whether I live in their precincts/parishes/counties/states...whatever you wish to call it. It insults us as constituents when they fail to act in our best interests.

Again, another example of taking things out of context and trying to apply different points of view sans the whole. Another reason why boards like this do not really breed intellectual conversation. It is all typically one-way with no agreement to disagree, as is the typical "in-person" debate during retorts.
You can use your own intellect to discern what you think to be true and follow your ideology. I will likewise. That is the inalienable freedom of choice we have as humans. Whether or not we agree or disagree, we should agree that it is fine to do so. I will likely never change minds and mine will likely remain unchanged by you.

God Bless,
Hussker

[jochhejaam]

Actually, loving unconditionally means ignoring lack of action or accountability. It is not your place to judge. Jesus would have extended a hand to the most depraved of looters, because it was the right thing to do. He basically said as much on numerous occasions.






Actually loving unconditionally and ignoring lack of action/accountability have nothing in common. I love my children unconditionally but that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to ignore their lack of accountability. How would that be beneficial? In life I am accountable to God for what I say and what I do. He doesn't ignore what i say or do and I wouldn't want him to. At work I am accountable for the same thing. Always, every day, I am doing and saying things for which I am accountable.

[ObiwanGinobili]

But it's just plain wrong (and quite frankly, pointless) to blame the victims themselves, as Hussker has done. It's also crudely elitist to suggest the average hurricane victim is so stupid he or she will spend his or her FEMA money on high-end electronics rather than food, clothing, and other necessities.

i couldn't agree with you more. :tu
Infact all the interviews with debit card recipients on the local and national news that I have seen would go along with that.
I can rember specificaly 2 interviews - #1 was a single mom here in SA who said that she was going to get some interview clothing for herslef, a via bus pass, and a small tv from a pawn store to keep her son occupied at the shelter while she was out looking for a job. SHe said she was going to sock the rest away for "really bad times"
#2 was a man who said he would use it to get some work/interview clothes , a littel food and basicly hold onto the rest while he tried to set up a new life for himself. Whne asked by the reporter if he felt tempted at all to buy a few "comfort" items the man quickly responded "no". Saying that there was no practical need or that right now seeing as how that debit card was all he had to his name. "there will be time for that kinda stuff later on..."

[2centsworth]

Actually, loving unconditionally means ignoring lack of action or accountability. It is not your place to judge. Jesus would have extended a hand to the most depraved of looters, because it was the right thing to do. He basically said as much on numerous occasions.

Perhaps if you are ever on a ship and are "stupid" enough to refuse to fall into the ocean, you would prefer the ship not stop for you?
At least support your argument with scripture.

[RandomGuy]

And I have not "judged", as that is not my place to do so. If you find that I have, then call me on that. I have the right and obligation to judge situations, but no right to judge "people" for their choices. I do, however, believe in acknowledging accountability for those in leadership positions when they are charged to act.
God Bless,
Hussker

I love it when people ask me to hoist them by their own petard...

Let me see if I understand...'what?". I am assuming you are not my age, so, my friend, that is your tax bill as well. Remember to ask the refusees you see toting their new plasma tv's they purchased from Best Buy with their new debit cards if you can help give a hand. Sorry, but there should have been a quick financial responsibility class before handing out 2K, more than some of these folks paid in taxes themselves last yr.

Your implication is that they should not be helped. What they do with the money is not your concern. They are adults and should be treated as such. Some will always make poor choices, and that is out of our hands.

BUT

They should be helped nonetheless.


I am not talking about not holding people accountable for their actions, on that I agree.

I AM talking about providing assistance if asked for or needed. Sure, any system can and is cheated, but far and away the money spent is well spent on those who need it.

I am all about cost to benefit. If it costs an extra 10% for those who cheat, so be it. I can hang with helping people. Again, not that we shouldn't hold cheaters accountable or try to mimimize such, but let's not let the actions of a few stop us from helping the multitude.

We are closer than you might think on this...

[RandomGuy]

Sure...So what you are saying is that Jesus never held anyone accountable? Read your scriptures and I think you will find that is far from true, specifically in the gospels. Check out the behavior in the temples! That is what I call tough love and holding folks accountable.



Again, I agree.

But to transfer that to the present event, we can both agree that the looters should be held accountable for the looting. This is consistant with what Jesus did in the temple, and is pretty much common sense.

What I see you as saying is that we shouldn't help them if they were refused or were unable through no fault of their own to leave. I think this is a fair assertion.

I say that we should help them, and that it is only moral that we do so. You don't want to admit that unconditional help is the moral thing, because you want to feel somehow superior to them. I can understand that very common human failing, and it is one we all fall into at one time or another.

BUT

The life preservers on ships are there for a reason.

I would go further to quote from the Quran on this:
The prophet Mohammed was asked after a battle by one of his lieutenants (Mohammed was a general, by the way) "What is the greatest war you have ever fought in?" His reply: "The greatest war is the war against one's lower self."

Money is only money and a material thing. Helping people is beyond materiality and a moral duty.

[RandomGuy]

At least support your argument with scripture.


Heh, I am the type of liberal that doesn't get a lot of press. ;^)

I have clear rational or moral reasoning for favoring liberalism over conservatism, and that makes people on both ends of the spectrum nervous...

In all honesty, I am more of a centrist, but the radicals that have taken over conservatism these days make me seem like a card-carrying member of the communist party. More information than y'all probably wanted, but there it is.

(edited a spelling error)

[RandomGuy]

(note: RG was an intel analyst for the army during the first gulf war, and knows a *bit* about Islam and Iraq as well, not trying to brag, merely to clarify what the heck I am about)

[The Ressurrected One]

(note: RG was an intel analyst for the army during the first gulf war, and knows a *bit* about Islam and Iraq as well, not trying to brag, merely to clarify what the heck I am about)
Intel analysts are a dime a dozen; and, you guys disagree with one another too. Doesn't mean much...

Not trying to burst your bubble of self-importance, merely clarifying.

[RandomGuy]

Intel analysts are a dime a dozen; and, you guys disagree with one another too. Doesn't mean much...

Not trying to burst your bubble of self-importance, merely clarifying.

(shrugs)

It means that I have studied middle eastern politics, culture, and religion. I personally like to keep current on these topics even though I am out of the service 12 years now.

You are 100% right that it doesn't make me infallible.

As for not meaning much, it means that I likely know more than you do.

Fallacy: Ad Hominem

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

[The Ressurrected One]

(shrugs)

It means that I have studied middle eastern politics, culture, and religion. I personally like to keep
current on these topics even though I am out of the service 12 years now.

You are 100% right that it doesn't make me infallible.

As for not meaning much, it means that I likely know more than you do.
Use of the word "likely" is the only thing that saves your statement from being totally refutable. But, as has already been shown in another thread (thinking we only discovered Schumacher-Levy 9 moments before it struck Jupiter), your ability to "keep current" on the topics of your interest is, at best, dubious.



Fallacy: Ad Hominem

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of
some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this
fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her
circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting
the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in
question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions
of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made
(or the quality of the argument being made).
Okay, again, nice googling. But, you fail to concede that it is not an Ad Hominem attack if the argument follows this template:

1. Person A makes a completely unsubstantiated claim X.
2. Person B disproves or, adequately calls into question, the veracity and legitimacy of claim X, and then calls person A and idiot for forwarding such nonsense.
3. Therefore, person A's claim X is false and they are still an idiot.

[xrayzebra]

Did the GI bill make all those veterans "helpless"? I didn't feel that way when I was taking advantage of it.

Does unemployment insurance make people helpless?

In both instances cited above, the person earned his benefit and had to work to obtain both the education and unemployment insurance. Both were only temporary, limited benefits, with a time limit in drawing the benefit. Welfare is not earned and has no time limits. Hence, generations of families have drawn benefits and continue to draw them and clamor for more.

[RandomGuy]

Use of the word "likely" is the only thing that saves your statement from being totally refutable. But, as has already been shown in another thread (thinking we only discovered Schumacher-Levy 9 moments before it struck Jupiter), your ability to "keep current" on the topics of your interest is, at best, dubious.


You mean the thread where you completely didn't understand plain english, tried for a "gotcha" on me, and simply ended up looking like an idiot? (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25045)

[RandomGuy]

In both instances cited above, the person earned his benefit and had to work to obtain both the education and unemployment insurance. Both were only temporary, limited benefits, with a time limit in drawing the benefit. Welfare is not earned and has no time limits. Hence, generations of families have drawn benefits and continue to draw them and clamor for more.

Unsubstantiated bullpuckey, and factually incorrect.

The "welfare" you are talking about ended under Bill Clinton's welfare reform bill.
It and and what was known as "food stamps" changed markedly. "Welfare" became "Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF)". It has a limited total lifetime benefit, and a limited length of benefit at any one time. Almost all states require some form of job training or counseling to qualify for receiving it, and in a good number of states the amount of monthly benefit is only a FRACTION of the federal poverty level. Food stamps changed in very similar ways as well.

I would also ask: Find a statistical study that says that the majority (or even a sizable minority) of recipients of this aid are "helpless" to any degree.

I suppose those who fall off boats need to "earn" a lifepreserver before you would throw them one?

[RandomGuy]

Use of the word "likely" is the only thing that saves your statement from being totally refutable. But, as has already been shown in another thread (thinking we only discovered Schumacher-Levy 9 moments before it struck Jupiter), your ability to "keep current" on the topics of your interest is, at best, dubious.


Ok, I'll bite:

What would you rate your level of knowledge about the Middle East as?
In terms of politics, culture, language?

You're just being pissy because this liberal is better informed than you are on quite a few topics...

[RandomGuy]

Okay, again, nice googling. But, you fail to concede that it is not an Ad Hominem attack if the argument follows this template:

1. Person A makes a completely unsubstantiated claim X.
2. Person B disproves or, adequately calls into question, the veracity and legitimacy of claim X, and then calls person A and idiot for forwarding such nonsense.
3. Therefore, person A's claim X is false and they are still an idiot.


You're right, I was kind of off on my interpretation of your logic, it could also be described like this:

Fallacy: Personal Attack



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Known as: Ad Hominem Abusive.

Description of Personal Attack
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.

In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.

Either interpretation of your so-called "logic" indicates an inability to form coherent, logically sound arguments.

Answer this question yes or no: Is it likely that an ex-intelligence analyst would know more about the geographic area of his former assignment than a randomly sampled individual taken from the general population?

Yes or no, it is a simple question.

[RandomGuy]

Answer this question yes or no: Is it likely that an ex-intelligence analyst would know more about the geographic area of his former assignment than a randomly sampled individual taken from the general population?

Yes or no, it is a simple question.

But I won't hold my breath that you will have the intellectual honesty to answer it.

[RandomGuy]

still waiting on this one too, R.O.

[RandomGuy]

and waiting...

[Yonivore]

But I won't hold my breath that you will have the intellectual honesty to answer it.
There's a much greater likelihood you're lying about your credentials...many on these boards do. And, given your posts on many topics, including those in which you claim expertise, you're the stupidest fucking intelligence analyst I've ever encountered.

Maybe that's why it's a former occupation?

[Yonivore]

There's a much greater likelihood you're lying about your credentials...many on these boards do. And, given your posts on many topics, including those in which you claim expertise, you're the stupidest fucking intelligence analyst I've ever encountered.

Maybe that's why it's a former occupation?
::bump:: Didn't want you to miss my reply since you waited so long for it.

[RandomGuy]

There's a much greater likelihood you're lying about your credentials...many on these boards do. And, given your posts on many topics, including those in which you claim expertise, you're the stupidest fucking intelligence analyst I've ever encountered.

Maybe that's why it's a former occupation?

Fallacy: Poisoning the Well

Description of Poisoning the Well

This sort of "reasoning" involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This "argument" has the following form:

1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.

This sort of "reasoning" is obviously fallacious. The person making such an attack is hoping that the unfavorable information will bias listeners against the person in question and hence that they will reject any claims he might make.


"Bah" is not a logical construction. It is a retreat of somebody who just doesn't have the intellectual firepower to construct a logical argument using good critical thinking skills.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Checks out to me. Yonivore you coward. :lol

[RandomGuy]

There's a much greater likelihood you're lying about your credentials...many on these boards do. And, given your posts on many topics, including those in which you claim expertise, you're the stupidest fucking intelligence analyst I've ever encountered.

Maybe that's why it's a former occupation?

I have not lied at all. I was an intelligence analyst in the US army from the period 1989-1993. My specialization was at the tactical level, which is primarily technical in nature in terms of the nuts and bolts of military ops specific to the country.
I did gain some topical knowledge at the time about Iraq generally, and have since leaving the service made a point of reading quite a bit, almost all from open source news/periodicals/websites.
I do NOT have a degree in middle east studies.
I DO know more than most people I meet or speak with.

I DO NOT rely on unsubstantiated B.S., or the official party line, as you seem so ready to do.

My most important qualification:
Good critical thinking skills.
They have gotten me a long way, and it has made me realize how and why party hacks like you get away with the snow jobs that you do.

[RandomGuy]

There's a much greater likelihood you're lying about your credentials...many on these boards do. And, given your posts on many topics, including those in which you claim expertise, you're the stupidest fucking intelligence analyst I've ever encountered.

Maybe that's why it's a former occupation?

Answer this question yes or no: Is it likely that an ex-intelligence analyst would know more about the geographic area of his former assignment than a randomly sampled individual taken from the general population?

Yes or no, it is a simple question.
Yes or no?

I'm STILL waiting.

[Yonivore]

Answer this question yes or no: Is it likely that an ex-intelligence analyst would know more about the geographic area of his former assignment than a randomly sampled individual taken from the general population?

Yes or no, it is a simple question.
Yes or no?

I'm STILL waiting.
Oh please, hold your breath too...

Prove you're an ex-intelligence analyst first. Then, I'd like to talk to your former employer about their employment practices.

[RandomGuy]

Oh please, hold your breath too...

Prove you're an ex-intelligence analyst first. Then, I'd like to talk to your former employer about their employment practices.


Dodge dodge dodge.

Just answer the question.

[Yonivore]

No. It's not germain and if you don't already know the answer, you're stupid.

But, for the record, intelligence analysts have different levels of competence and so does your average American.

Your immaturity in demanding a response to this inane question suggests that you're probably on the low end of the competency scale if, indeed, you're not a liar.

I suggest you grow up. But, you're free to ignore my advice.

[RandomGuy]

No. It's not germain [sic]and if you don't already know the answer, you're stupid.

But, for the record, intelligence analysts have different levels of competence and so does your average American.

Your immaturity in demanding a response to this inane question suggests that you're probably on the low end of the competency scale if, indeed, you're not a liar.

I suggest you grow up. But, you're free to ignore my advice.

FINALLY, a direct answer.

So it is NOT reasonable for an intelligence analyst to know more than the average american about their former area of interest. I am sure you have some expertise in this matter to be able to pronounce such.

I expect no better from the right end of the political spectrum, where logic and rationality is in short supply.

It isn't immature to expect a direct answer to a direct question.

It IS immature to behave worse than a 4 year old in denying a very reasonable assumption, and then go on to call an opponent "fucking stupid" and a "liar".

Your words are your own, and I didn't put them there. Anybody who reads them knows who is being immature and who is not, and deep down,

you know it too.

[Vashner]

Maybe he was crypto at lackland?

[Summers]

Actually, I can vouch for RandomGuy and tell you what he did during the first Gulf War... but then I'd have to kill you.

[RandomGuy]

Oh please, hold your breath too...

Prove you're an ex-intelligence analyst first. Then, I'd like to talk to your former employer about their employment practices.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a131/bluepooh72/DD214.jpg

To restate:

I have not lied at all. I was an intelligence analyst in the US army from the period 1989-1993. My specialization was at the tactical level, which is primarily technical in nature in terms of the nuts and bolts of military ops specific to the country.
I did gain some topical knowledge at the time about Iraq generally, and have since leaving the service made a point of reading quite a bit, almost all from open source news/periodicals/websites.
I do NOT have a degree in middle east studies.
I DO know more than most people I meet or speak with.

I DO NOT rely on unsubstantiated B.S., or the official party line, as you seem so ready to do.

My most important qualification:
Good critical thinking skills.
They have gotten me a long way, and continue to do so.

[RandomGuy]

I would point out that the president at that time was the elder GW Bush and the defense secretary was:

Dick Cheney.

You can talk to "my former employer" if you wish...

[RandomGuy]

FINALLY, a direct answer.

So it is NOT reasonable for an intelligence analyst to know more than the average american about their former area of interest. I am sure you have some expertise in this matter to be able to pronounce such.

I expect no better from the right end of the political spectrum, where logic and rationality is in short supply.

It isn't immature to expect a direct answer to a direct question.

It IS immature to behave worse than a 4 year old in denying a very reasonable assumption, and then go on to call an opponent "fucking stupid" and a "liar".

Your words are your own, and I didn't put them there. Anybody who reads them knows who is being immature and who is not, and deep down,

you know it too.

Bumpity bump bump....

[Marcus Bryant]

Who cares?

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by hussker-------The Government has fooled those who believe it that they cannot think and act for themselves. Poor refusees...

The government is where we pool our collective resources to do things that we can't do on our own.

That is the reason that corporations came into existance. Railroads can't be built without pooled capital. Supertankers can't be built without pooled capital. Billion dollar oil platforms... etc etc.

[RandomGuy]

Who cares?

Cowards...
:makemyday

[xrayzebra]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a131/bluepooh72/DD214.jpg

To restate:

I have not lied at all. I was an intelligence analyst in the US army from the period 1989-1993. My specialization was at the tactical level, which is primarily technical in nature in terms of the nuts and bolts of military ops specific to the country.
I did gain some topical knowledge at the time about Iraq generally, and have since leaving the service made a point of reading quite a bit, almost all from open source news/periodicals/websites.
I do NOT have a degree in middle east studies.
I DO know more than most people I meet or speak with.

I DO NOT rely on unsubstantiated B.S., or the official party line, as you seem so ready to do.

My most important qualification:
Good critical thinking skills.
They have gotten me a long way, and continue to do so.

Oh-boy, an intercept operator. whoooopeeee!

Like you said your specialized in nuts and bolts! Mostly nuts from some of your post. :spin

[RandomGuy]

Oh-boy, an intercept operator. whoooopeeee!

Like you said your specialized in nuts and bolts! Mostly nuts from some of your post. :spin

:idiot
Look again, an operator would have been a 98G/H/J

I was an analyst. It was my job to take the reports operators produced, build databases, analyse data to synthesize intelligence, and begin the reporting cycle.

I was also my batallions EW Asset Manager, but that wouldn't be listed there.

[ALVAREZ6]

Those are disturbing...