this loss pretty much seals MJ >>>> Leroids forever

[hater]

Case closed.

[LkrFan]

Agreed. For the record, 5/7 >>>>>> 2/6.

[Venti Quattro]

It was never in doubt, even if Jordan killed his dad due to his insatiable appetite for gambling.

[Killakobe81]

It was never in doubt, even if Jordan killed his dad due to his insatiable appetite for gambling.

I wont lie, I thought he still had a SMALL chance at GOAT status ...but NOPE. That ship has sailed. Just like Kobe, Shaq, Duncan none can topple MJ. It will happen someday but not sure there is anyone in the league yet that can do it. And he won't be in this draft either.

[Alex's foreskin]

:lol chosen one. Someone needs to edit LeBrons head on Anakin's body.
QiZNSzWIaLo

[StrengthAndHonor]

I've seen Jordan play. No one will convince me James is better. That's just my honest take on it.


LeBron was getting there though with analytics gaining a lot of popularity in the sports field, but even that has abandoned James.

[Venti Quattro]

LeBron was getting there though with analytics gaining a lot of popularity in the sports field, but even that has abandoned James.

LeBron shot 40% in this series and has lost in the Finals four times. Those are unforgivable stats for someone who's making a claim at the GOAT status.

[ambchang]

Lebron wasn't going to surpass MJ even if he bullied his way to a finals win. In fact, this finals showed how good Lebron is and how crappy the team he played for is, and should forever quash the rings argument as it perfectly illustrates that winning is purely a team accomplishment with contributions from individuals. The failure of management shouldn't fall on the shoulders of Lebron.

That said, I am not sure about >>>>, MJ is about >> Lebron.

Now if Lebron wins the next 6 championships averaging 40/12/12 in the playoffs, shooting 60% from the field, and put in 4 blks and 3 stls, he would be the GOAT, but that's not likely to happen.

[StrengthAndHonor]

LeBron shot 40% in this series and has lost in the Finals four times. Those are unforgivable stats for someone who's making a claim at the GOAT status.
Precisely.

[Killakobe81]

Lebron wasn't going to surpass MJ even if he bullied his way to a finals win. In fact, this finals showed how good Lebron is and how crappy the team he played for is, and should forever quash the rings argument as it perfectly illustrates that winning is purely a team accomplishment with contributions from individuals. The failure of management shouldn't fall on the shoulders of Lebron.

That said, I am not sure about >>>>, MJ is about >> Lebron.

Now if Lebron wins the next 6 championships averaging 40/12/12 in the playoffs, shooting 60% from the field, and put in 4 blks and 3 stls, he would be the GOAT, but that's not likely to happen.

Team accomplishments do matter because the object is winning and matter even more when you separate the best of the best. So does Malone, Barkley, Miller all great players do they deserve GOAT consideration? No, They did not ring. LeBron's two may be enough to surpass Bird but tough to put him in the top 5 without at least two more.

[ambchang]

Team accomplishments do matter because the object is winning and matter even more when you separate the best of the best. So does Malone, Barkley, Miller all great players do they deserve GOAT consideration? No, They did not ring. LeBron's two may be enough to surpass Bird but tough to put him in the top 5 without at least two more.

Malone does not deserve GOAT considerations because he failed to ring with strong supporting casts. You give Stockton, Hornacek, Eaton, Bailey, Jeff Malone (at different times) and a coach like Jerry Sloan to a player like Robinson, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, or McHale over a few years, and they win a ring.

Similar to Barkley, he had Kevin Johnson, Richard Dumas (man, that guy was good before he got all coked up), Majerle, Miller, but failed to ring. Not as bad as Malone, but he had a decently strong team, and he had huge flaws in his defense (doesn't really play that much of it) and offense (ball stopper).

Miller was a shooter, he doesn't really create that much for his teammates, his defense was mediocre, he's like a combination of Kyle Korver and Robert Horry, to a degree (and obviously much better). That team wasn't going to ring with Miller as the centrepiece.

As for Lebron over Bird, not yet for me. People really did not remember how dominant Bird was back in the day.

[Mitch]

He'll secure a 4-5 spot unless he wins multiple times more.

[Koolaid_Man]

I've seen Jordan play. No one will convince me James is better. That's just my honest take on it.


LeBron was getting there though with analytics gaining a lot of popularity in the sports field, but even that has abandoned James.


This. Tbh....real niggas know their shit

[hater]

He's arguably top 5. Most likely and hands down top 10.

[Killakobe81]

I would put him in my all-time 5, tbh. Because I think he is the GOAT SF ... and as much as I love Magic but it's hard to argue that he was a better player at his best than LEbron. However rings will ALWAYS matter to me. And if he had won his ring this year it would be as good as any Magic or MJ won ...but it did not happen and if he does not ring again Im sorry it DOES matter in the GOAT covo and not only keeps him below MJ but a case can be made for Kareem, Magic, Duncan etc. over him. I am not talking peak but career wise. IF we only judge peaks LeBron,Shaq and Hakeem would rate higher than Magic, Duncan Kobe.

As for Malone so he gets penalized for playing with Stockton but no credit he lost to MJ and Magic who are top 5 Players and GOAT at their positions When MJ had Pippen and PJ and Magic had Worthy, Kareem and riles? Again I dont care fact is he is a great player who did not ring but it's funny how you qualify his failure to ring.

Truly, I dont care about all the factors ....bottom line when you are a GOAT you ring. Maybe not right away but you do. And as much credit as Bron would have got for a win this year he still did not ring and that is part of his story. Same as Magic, Kobe, shaq and even duncan who have finals loss or losses on their resume.

[Killakobe81]

My alltime squads:

Center - KAreem
PF - Tim
SF - Lebron
SG - MJ
PG - Magic

2nd Team

C - Shaq
PF - KG (case can be made for Dirk here)
SF - Bird
SG - Kobe
PG - Isiah Thomas

C - Hakeem
PF - Dirk
SF - Pippen
SG - Drexler (a case can be made for Dumars, Manu, Ray went with drexler who led a Finals team and helped Dream repeat)
PG - Steph (I know he just rung and a case can be made for DJ who rang with sonics and Celts but Steph ethered the "PG" and small ball theory so I went there.

Notes:

1. No players I never saw (no russell, West, Baylor)
2. Rings matter: So no Malone, chuck, Stockton.
3. End of the career coat-tailing doesnt count (otherwise GP/Kidd would have case for Steph's spot)

[ambchang]

Top Tier:
Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird

Next Tier:
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

Third Tier:
Garnett
Dirk
Barkley
Robinson
Stockton
Kobe
Isiah
Dr. J
West
Rick Barry

Fourth Tier:
Gilmore
Pierce
Drexler
Malone
McHale
Pippen
Havlicek
Payton
Kidd
Chris Paul
Ewing
Mullin
MVPau
Nique
Carter
TMac

Too early:
Durant

Too injured:
Walton - Easily in top 15 if not for injuries
Yao - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Hill - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Kevin Johnson - would have been 4th tier if healthy for longer


Old Timers:
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Pettit

[da_suns_fan]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

[da_suns_fan]

Top Tier:
Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird


:lol

[Killakobe81]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

2007 and probably not 2015. Doesnt matter. In the end it's all part of the narrative. I actually WANTED Lebron to surpass MJ. Look at my posts after Game 3 ...if he won this series I was ready to bear witness ...but he did not. He is great. No one that watches hoops and not a hater can deny his greatness. Rings still matter he is a couple short if he can get two more he secures #2 right now he is probably top 5 ...

[Killakobe81]

Also lot's of players including Prime Grant Hill or even Iguadola are better all around players than Shaq. Better, shooters dribblers, etc. doesnt mean they are greater or more dominant.
I get your point that Lebron is a better all around player than MJ but it doesnt make him greater than Mj.

[da_suns_fan]

2007 and probably not 2015. Doesnt matter. In the end it's all part of the narrative. I actually WANTED Lebron to surpass MJ. Look at my posts after Game 3 ...if he won this series I was ready to bear witness ...but he did not. He is great. No one that watches hoops and not a hater can deny his greatness. Rings still matter he is a couple short if he can get two more he secures #2 right now he is probably top 5 ...

The fact that it was even a series and basically every game was close is amazing in itself.

Most people thought Warriors in 5 and they would win their home games by 30+. And that was before Irving got hurt.

[Koolaid_Man]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

That nigga didn't win shit on his own...he won a ring on a locked out season...asterisk outta the gate....then he piggy backed Wade.....nigga cant win shit without a HOF player or 2....J ames doesnt have to face no where near the level of defensive players or teams that MJ and Kobe did...nugga is a loser spin it how you want

[JoeTait75]

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

I don't think there is a single Pantheon-level player, outside of maybe the super-dominant big men like KAJ or Hakeem, that could have won either the '07 or '15 Finals with LeBron's supporting cast. MJ wouldn't have been able to do it, IMO.

Then again, I don't really care if people think LeBron is at MJ's level or not. Doesn't matter.

[Koolaid_Man]

I don't think there is a single Pantheon-level player, outside of maybe the super-dominant big men like KAJ or Hakeem, that could have won either the '07 or '15 Finals with LeBron's supporting cast. MJ wouldn't have been able to do it, IMO.

Then again, I don't really care if people think LeBron is at MJ's level or not. Doesn't matter.

2-4.....33% finalz win %

[dbreiden83080]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single title he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.

[Killakobe81]

I don't think there is a single Pantheon-level player, outside of maybe the super-dominant big men like KAJ or Hakeem, that could have won either the '07 or '15 Finals with LeBron's supporting cast. MJ wouldn't have been able to do it, IMO.

Then again, I don't really care if people think LeBron is at MJ's level or not. Doesn't matter.

My honest take at his best he has some of what made both Magic and Mj special. He has Mj's ability to exert his will and Magic like vision. I think it's closer than Jordan fans will admit ...but tough to make a case if the loss column is larger than the win column (finals wise) regardless. To be fair two of those losses came and even his last ECF loss in CLE were to the 3 best PF's I have ever seen. Losing to Tim, Dirk, KG is no crime.

[Killakobe81]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single title he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.

Great points ...

[baseline bum]

Lebron wasn't going to surpass MJ even if he bullied his way to a finals win. In fact, this finals showed how good Lebron is and how crappy the team he played for is, and should forever quash the rings argument as it perfectly illustrates that winning is purely a team accomplishment with contributions from individuals. The failure of management shouldn't fall on the shoulders of Lebron.

That said, I am not sure about >>>>, MJ is about >> Lebron.

Now if Lebron wins the next 6 championships averaging 40/12/12 in the playoffs, shooting 60% from the field, and put in 4 blks and 3 stls, he would be the GOAT, but that's not likely to happen.

Failure of management? They got James a good supporting cast, it's just his best three teammates all suffered season ending injuries.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.


Nobody wins on his own. Delly iced 2 crucial FT's in Game 2 and a bank shot And 1 in Game 3 sealed it. He also played a huge role roughing the MVP in those games.


More than anything, Cleveland's hustle surprised everyone.

[Koolaid_Man]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single title he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.


Lebron has Tristen grabbing rebounds and Mozdov blocking shots all series long....he had help..i dont want to hear excuses...

[baseline bum]

LeBron lost the ability to surpass Jordan when he got destroyed by Nowitzki and Chandler in the 2011 Finals with a prime Wade and prime Bosh. I don't know how this is even a topic.

[Koolaid_Man]

Nobody wins on his own. Delly iced 2 crucial FT's in Game 2 and a bank shot And 1 in Game 3 sealed it. He also played a huge role roughing the MVP in those games.


More than anything, Cleveland's hustle surprised everyone.

He had help....he refused to use them properly and chose instesd to Stat pad....I cant be happier he lost

[Koolaid_Man]

LeBron lost the ability to surpass Jordan when he got destroyed by Nowitzki and Chandler in the 2011 Finals with a prime Wade and prime Bosh. I don't know how this is even a topic.

Bingo....

[ambchang]

Failure of management? They got James a good supporting cast, it's just his best three teammates all suffered season ending injuries.

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.
And this is based on nothing....

[baseline bum]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.

[Koolaid_Man]

I'm just glad that nugga lost

[Koolaid_Man]

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.


Irving is a pussy...he was a monster and they still lost game 1 with Steph playing horrible?....GS is better offensively even if Cavs have Love and Kylie...you gotta sacrifice something if youre the Cavs....with Love and Kylie they lose all of their defense....so all it means is the Warriors win all these games by 4-5 instead of 8-15...

[Infinite_limit]

?

2011 closed the door on MJ
2015 might have closed door on Duncan

[ambchang]

And this is based on nothing....

Based on years and years of not making it to the playoffs, observation of their inability to play defense, stat padding, and generally not making much of a difference on any teams they ever played for in the NBA? Kyrie Irving had a net rating of +2 his entire career, he never had one single season of + in DBPM, his VORP is average.

Kevin Love is pretty much the same, only that he did it for longer.

[ambchang]

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.

1 game does not a career make, and despite that the Cavs still lost in OT, vs. winning in Games 2 and 3 without Irving and with a guy who can't dribble or shoot (I don't even know how Della even made an NBA roster).

[Infinite_limit]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.
Jordan was better Defender and possibly rebounder

Court vision is MAYBE the only basketball aspect James is superior at

EDIT: James is a better 3point shooter. So there u go

[StrengthAndHonor]

Based on years and years of not making it to the playoffs, observation of their inability to play defense, stat padding, and generally not making much of a difference on any teams they ever played for in the NBA? Kyrie Irving had a net rating of +2 his entire career, he never had one single season of + in DBPM, his VORP is average.

Kevin Love is pretty much the same, only that he did it for longer.
It nullifies everything you said, those observations were all made on assumptions and analyzed from them playing as their previous teams 1st option.

Now, back on topic as supporting casts?

[ambchang]

It nullifies everything you said, those observations were all made on assumptions and analyzed from them playing as their previous teams 1st option.

Now, back on topic as supporting casts?

Bad statistics extend to this year as well.
Cavs didn't miss a single beat after of they were injured in the playoffs.

Cavs

[jeebus]

It was never in doubt, even if Jordan killed his dad due to his insatiable appetite for gambling.
MJ could've started the Rwandan genocide and hired the turrrist to fly the plane into the WTC...still doesn't take away he's the GOAT and made Space Jam. Everything else is a non issue.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Bad statistics extend to this year as well.
Cavs didn't miss a single beat after of they were injured in the playoffs.

Cavs
They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

[Koolaid_Man]

They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

Dam..you're deep in his ass this morning....and no that doesnt make you gay..it makes him gay for taking it like that...

Carry on my friend

[ambchang]

They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

Show the statistics.

And Cavs lost with Irving at point in Game 1 in OT, won Games 2 and 3 without him, GSW adjusted, and won three straight. So no, the Cavs didn't miss a beat.

And I see your mountains of evidence supporting the two would make a difference as well. Great job.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Show the statistics.

And Cavs lost with Irving at point in Game 1 in OT, won Games 2 and 3 without him, GSW adjusted, and won three straight. So no, the Cavs didn't miss a beat.

And I see your mountains of evidence supporting the two would make a difference as well. Great job.
You're really going to argue here that the Cavs are better with Delladova than Irving? :lol

This is honestly why I don't like debating with you.

[ambchang]

You're really going to argue here that the Cavs are better with Delladova than Irving? :lol

This is honestly why I don't like debating with you.

Not because Delladova is better than Irving as a player, it's because it means more of the offense goes through Lebron, and Delladova focuses on nothing BUT defense, which he is better than Irving at.

Lebron taking more of the offensive load is always a good thing, the fear is that he would break down physically, which he didn't. He played well till Game 6, it was the other players who didn't have the stamina to hang. Which brings us back to the original point, the Cavs management did a poor job putting together a team to challenge for a title. Love and Irving can't be counted on as integral pieces of a championship team, then you have players like JR Smith, Shumpert, and Delladova, and a bunch of castoffs who are way past their primes (or even playing days) or has never really been good, or both.

EDIT: You ability to bring solid evidence to the argument is showing again. Bravo.

[jsandiego]

LeBron lost the ability to surpass Jordan when he got destroyed by Nowitzki and Chandler in the 2011 Finals with a prime Wade and prime Bosh. I don't know how this is even a topic.
^^^^^

When he's the alpha with no help, he gets gaudy statistics that don't translate to victory over the course of a series.

When he has all-star and HOF help on a Superteam, he defers after he's punched in the mouth. He's a great player, but mentally not as great as MJ, Magic, and Duncan. You can give him a pass all you want for 2007 and 2015, but 2011 was case closed. Remember all of the 4th quarter LeBron jokes?

[lefty]

MJ wouldn't have won with those scrubs


GTFO

[Infinite_limit]

MJ wouldn't have won with those scrubs


GTFO
Against this Warriors team?

I could see it. Cavaliers #1 weakness was consistent scoring. Enter MJ

[Alex's foreskin]

Top Tier:
Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird

Next Tier:
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

Third Tier:
Garnett
Dirk
Barkley
Robinson
Stockton
Kobe
Isiah
Dr. J
West
Rick Barry

Fourth Tier:
Gilmore
Pierce
Drexler
Malone
McHale
Pippen
Havlicek
Payton
Kidd
Chris Paul
Ewing
Mullin
MVPau
Nique
Carter
TMac

Too early:
Durant

Too injured:
Walton - Easily in top 15 if not for injuries
Yao - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Hill - would have been 3rd or 4th tier if healthy
Kevin Johnson - would have been 4th tier if healthy for longer


Old Timers:
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Pettit
Shaq and Hakeem are top tier.

[dbreiden83080]

He had help....he refused to use them properly and chose instesd to Stat pad....I cant be happier he lost

He had Help LOL!! Their second best player was Knicks reject and outcast JR Smith..

[Infinite_limit]

He had Help LOL!! Their second best player was Knicks reject and outcast JR Smith..
Mosgov & Thompson > Green & Barnes

[dbreiden83080]

Mosgov & Thompson > Green & Barnes

Yeah by all means lets poll NBA GM's..

[Infinite_limit]

Yeah by all means lets poll NBA GM's..
Well the Cavs bigs were superior in the series.

Cavs starting lineup wasn't awful. Simply no depth off the bench.

[hater]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

:lmao

Irving is a top 10 player in the league

:lol

[ambchang]

:lmao

Irving is a top 10 player in the league

:lol

No

I don't understand the obsession with Irving. We've seen this before

Marbury, Francis, Kenny Anderson, world b free, earl Monroe, Nate archibald. These are scoring pgs who, ultimately, do not make teams better.

[Venti Quattro]

No

I don't understand the obsession with Irving. We've seen this before

Marbury, Francis, Kenny Anderson, world b free, earl Monroe, Nate archibald. These are scoring pgs who, ultimately, do not make teams better.

Name 10 players that are better than Kyrie

[hater]

No

I don't understand the obsession with Irving. We've seen this before

Marbury, Francis, Kenny Anderson, world b free, earl Monroe, Nate archibald. These are scoring pgs who, ultimately, do not make teams better.

:lmao comparing Kenny Anderson to Irving

Why don't we go ahead and compare patty mills to Irving and call it a day :lol

[Venti Quattro]

:lmao comparing Kenny Anderson to Irving

Why don't we go ahead and compare patty mills to Irving and call it a day :lol

:lmao :lmao my drug-dealing Berraco nigga going all in better than Cleveland did

[lefty]

Kenny was a fantastic talent tbh

[ambchang]

Name 10 players that are better than Kyrie

Lebron
Curry
Harden
Davis
Chris Paul
Griffin
Aldridge
Lillard
John wall
Marc gasol

I'd also take kawhi, Duncan, cousins, mike Conley, and likely a few others before I pick Irving.

[ambchang]

:lmao comparing Kenny Anderson to Irving

Why don't we go ahead and compare patty mills to Irving and call it a day :lol

Andersons best season is better than kyrie's so far (still early). They have similar games with kyrie's being the better ball handler and Anderson the better pick and roller.

Anderson and Coleman was, at a time, the new age Stockton and Malone. Obviously never materialized, but you are really discrediting Kenny Anderson here. Or just that you don't remember the 90s much.

[LkrFan]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

There you go being a certified dumbass again. They ARE fucking all stars! :lmao

How much more help does he need? :lmao

[TDMVPDPOY]

so which is the bigger gap?

jordan vs lebron
jordan vs kobe
lebron vs kobe

atm i dont think kobe deserves any mention in comparison to the two players, dude is a 2nd banana in all his championship runs, and doesnt look like he be appearing or winning any time soon

[Killakobe81]

so which is the bigger gap?

jordan vs lebron
jordan vs kobe
lebron vs kobe

atm i dont think kobe deserves any mention in comparison to the two players, dude is a 2nd banana in all his championship runs, and doesnt look like he be appearing or winning any time soon

Only spurstalk ...what a shitty take but good and bad posters actually spew this shit.

[ambchang]

There you go being a certified dumbass again. They ARE fucking all stars! :lmao

How much more help does he need? :lmao

As supporting casts? No, they aren't that good.

They do nothing to fill in the a team with Lebron on it.

A Lebron led team needs defensive players, and neither of them are it. It's like putting Kobe next to Mike in his prime, it's not really a good support for Mike, because he duplicates a lot of what Mike does, and does it worse. Or how Kevin Johnson was traded away because the Cavs had Mark Price.

Irving offensive skill set overlaps a lot of what Lebron does, and does it worse. Irving doesn't have the same abilities to involve teammates, he tends to hold on to the ball too long, and is primarily an ISO oriented player. Lebron could be that, and is much better than him at it.

Love rebounds well, but he is just a bad defender. He seems to have trouble grasping defensive concepts (I don't think it's a lack of effort).

If either of them can reinvent themselves and fill in a role, then great. If not, they are not great supporting casts, at least not specifically for Lebron.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Only spurstalk ...what a shitty take but good and bad posters actually spew this shit.

kirby hasnt won shit without a dominant big..

if u say those dominant bigs havnt won shit in their lives, first of all how many of those ever thought about winning a championship?, im certain bynam and pau was happy the way they were playin and collecting paychecks, cause not everyone can ring..they accept the low standards in their careers

[Alex's foreskin]

kirby hasnt won shit without a dominant big..

if u say those dominant bigs havnt won shit in their lives, first of all how many of those ever thought about winning a championship?, im certain bynam and pau was happy the way they were playin and collecting paychecks, cause not everyone can ring..they accept the low standards in their careers

Kobe led the Lakers in win shares in the playoffs in 08-09. So yes he has been a top dog. Spurfan likes to spew shit about Big men on those Laker teams, yet dismiss the DPOY candidates through Duncan's career that he has had to guard the other team's best player.

[LkrFan]

As supporting casts? No, they aren't that good.

They do nothing to fill in the a team with Lebron on it.

A Lebron led team needs defensive players, and neither of them are it. It's like putting Kobe next to Mike in his prime, it's not really a good support for Mike, because he duplicates a lot of what Mike does, and does it worse. Or how Kevin Johnson was traded away because the Cavs had Mark Price.

Irving offensive skill set overlaps a lot of what Lebron does, and does it worse. Irving doesn't have the same abilities to involve teammates, he tends to hold on to the ball too long, and is primarily an ISO oriented player. Lebron could be that, and is much better than him at it.

Love rebounds well, but he is just a bad defender. He seems to have trouble grasping defensive concepts (I don't think it's a lack of effort).

If either of them can reinvent themselves and fill in a role, then great. If not, they are not great supporting casts, at least not specifically for Lebron.

Blah blah blah. Excuse excuse excuse.

The Cavs defense was fine. They surely could havd used Love and Irving because as LeHype's 38% shooting indicates, offense was absolutely needed when JR Clank and Chumpert went limp.

GM James has proven that without superstar help (Ray Allen, D-Whistle, Bosh Spice) or herculean efforts of scrubs (Battier), he won't win shitPERIOD.


He knew he needed Love and Irving. He kept saying "we are undermanned" -- who the fuck was he talking about if not these 2 all stars? Clearly he values them more than you do. Unless you saying Coach James is the certified dumbass? If so, in this case only, you are not. :downspin:

[Killakobe81]

kirby hasnt won shit without a dominant big..

if u say those dominant bigs havnt won shit in their lives, first of all how many of those ever thought about winning a championship?, im certain bynam and pau was happy the way they were playin and collecting paychecks, cause not everyone can ring..they accept the low standards in their careers

I get shaq led or at least was the more dominant player of the three-peat ... but to act as though Pau led the last two titles is a shitty take and shows how little you no hoops or how much bias blinds the weakminded.

[ambchang]

Blah blah blah. Excuse excuse excuse.

The Cavs defense was fine. They surely could havd used Love and Irving because as LeHype's 38% shooting indicates, offense was absolutely needed when JR Clank and Chumpert went limp.

GM James has proven that without superstar help (Ray Allen, D-Whistle, Bosh Spice) or herculean efforts of scrubs (Battier), he won't win shitPERIOD.


He knew he needed Love and Irving. He kept saying "we are undermanned" -- who the fuck was he talking about if not these 2 all stars? Clearly he values them more than you do. Unless you saying Coach James is the certified dumbass? If so, in this case only, you are not. :downspin:

Coach James is a certified dumbass, he made multiple poor decisions in terms of forcing management's hand and ultimately hurts himself. Riley had the backbones to stand up to him, and he won two championships because of it.

And Irving shot 46% from the field and 25% from three in that one great game he had vs. GSW, in which the Warriors lost.

Finally, we know Lebron is no Duncan, he needs help to win it all.

[ambchang]

I get shaq led or at least was the more dominant player of the three-peat ... but to act as though Pau led the last two titles is a shitty take and shows how little you no hoops or how much bias blinds the weakminded.

WS, BPM and VORP says otherwise.

MVPau just gets criminally underrated.

[da_suns_fan]

As supporting casts? No, they aren't that good.

They do nothing to fill in the a team with Lebron on it.

A Lebron led team needs defensive players, and neither of them are it. It's like putting Kobe next to Mike in his prime, it's not really a good support for Mike, because he duplicates a lot of what Mike does, and does it worse. Or how Kevin Johnson was traded away because the Cavs had Mark Price.

Irving offensive skill set overlaps a lot of what Lebron does, and does it worse. Irving doesn't have the same abilities to involve teammates, he tends to hold on to the ball too long, and is primarily an ISO oriented player. Lebron could be that, and is much better than him at it.

Love rebounds well, but he is just a bad defender. He seems to have trouble grasping defensive concepts (I don't think it's a lack of effort).

If either of them can reinvent themselves and fill in a role, then great. If not, they are not great supporting casts, at least not specifically for Lebron.

I actually agree with some of this. Irvings skills do somewhat overlap Lebron's but so does pretty much every PG in the league. You cant really create if Lebron has the ball in his hands 70% of the time. As a result, Irvings assist rate dropped this year.

But he still shot almost 50% from the field and 41% from 3.

I think we saw the limit as to what Lebron could do without any other play-makers on the floor. Its reasonable to assume the Cavs would have fared better if Irving was there to be able to give Lebron a rest for more than just a minute at a time.

[ambchang]

I actually agree with some of this. Irvings skills do somewhat overlap Lebron's but so does pretty much every PG in the league. You cant really create if Lebron has the ball in his hands 70% of the time. As a result, Irvings assist rate dropped this year.

But he still shot almost 50% from the field and 41% from 3.

I think we saw the limit as to what Lebron could do without any other play-makers on the floor. Its reasonable to assume the Cavs would have fared better if Irving was there to be able to give Lebron a rest for more than just a minute at a time.

Lebron is similar to Jordan in some ways, the ball is better in his hands, so having a PG that creates shots mostly for himself doesn't help the Cavs maximize the potential of the team. You need a defensive minded shooter at point, you need rugged rebounding defensive minded bigs, like Varaejao in there. An ultimate team for Lebron would be to put him on the Grizzlies and take away Randolph.

Conley, Allen, Lebron, Marc Gasol, Courtney Lee, Jeff Green and Carter.

Lee, Green and Conley would benefit immensely, on the offensive side of things with lebron. The Grizzlies actually had the chance last year if they just somehow got rid of Randolph for nothing, but then, Lebron will likely never sign there.

[Pelicans78]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the title in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

Jordan was a better defender.

[Infinite_limit]

Jordan was a better defender.
Agreed. Wasn't Kobe as well

[Alex's foreskin]

Jordan was a better defender.
And not afraid of the moment. For the first half of LeBron's career, he was afraid to shoot game deciding free throws.

[Arcadian]

Too early:
Durant

You think it's still too early to rank Durant? He's been in the league for 8 years. Larry Bird did most of his damage in his first 8 years, and that would have been enough to rank him.

[Thread]

And not afraid of the moment. For the first half of LeBron's career, he was afraid to shoot game deciding free throws.

& for the second half of LeBron's career he won't engage the opposition unless they're face ass down.

[ambchang]

You think it's still too early to rank Durant? He's been in the league for 8 years. Larry Bird did most of his damage in his first 8 years, and that would have been enough to rank him.

Sports has changed.

Players have longer primes because of better medicine and training, but also because players start earlier.

The injury may be one of those what if things like what happened to rose, but he may be unaffected and may go a few more years of dominating basketball. At which point you can put him in as one of the all time greats.

[Sean Cagney]

Don't let the media even fool you in to this debate as he was never near Mike to begin with IMO despite all that hype. They were talking up his finals as legendary and so on but failed to mention he shot 38% from the field, he was ballin but Mike has had better numbers in the finals before and so has Shaq etc (But they won). He is great but they hype him up a little too much.

[Thread]

^& it's centralized. I got local guys talking verbatim the same line that Cowherd puts out nationally, word-for-word. It's maddening.

[Infinite_limit]

Durant over Curry

I'd also prefer Harden

[hater]

Lebron
Curry
Harden
Davis
Chris Paul
Griffin
Aldridge
Lillard
John wall
Marc gasol

I'd also take kawhi, Duncan, cousins, mike Conley, and likely a few others before I pick Irving.


:lmao no

Irving is a franchise player through and through. Lebron had more than help. (up until the injury)

[hater]

LOLlard better than Irving

and then you complain about scoring PGs :lol :lol

[Thebesteva]

It was never in any serious jeopardy tbh. LeBronze is a bonified choker...even if he wins 2-3 in a row now it's over. Don't get me wrong, he's a top 10 guy for sure, but he's not even in the same conversation as MJ. He has yet to surpass Kobe or Magic in accomplishments, these are facts that cause CN to cry at nights.

[Thread]

...+ he's biting the pillow as well.

[Alex's foreskin]

& for the second half of LeBron's career he won't engage the opposition unless they're face ass down.

Yup. His career should have been a lot more than numbers.

[Thread]

Yup. His career should have been a lot more than numbers.

Yep, Game 6 he came out terrified, loitering the 3 point line. Not until the game was decided did he come to the fore.

[ambchang]

:lmao no

Irving is a franchise player through and through. Lebron had more than help. (up until the injury)


LOLlard better than Irving

and then you complain about scoring PGs :lol :lol

A franchise player who can't lead his team to the playoffs in a historically weak conference?

Check the numbers. Lillard is better. Wall is better. Kawhi is better and Duncan is better.

[Infinite_limit]

It was never in any serious jeopardy tbh. LeBronze is a bonified choker...even if he wins 2-3 in a row now it's over. Don't get me wrong, he's a top 10 guy for sure, but he's not even in the same conversation as MJ. He has yet to surpass Kobe or Magic in accomplishments, these are facts that cause CN to cry at nights.
Kobe over James Crew

[hater]

A franchise player who can't lead his team to the playoffs in a historically weak conference?

Check the numbers. Lillard is better. Wall is better. Kawhi is better and Duncan is better.

Pay gasol was a top 10 big man and he couldn't win a playoff game in the much tougher west. Take a look at the cavs roster with Irving as the main.

:lmao lollard

[hater]

Yeah at this point I don't see lebrona even better than Kobe. T qh

[Alex's foreskin]

:lol Lillard

[ambchang]

Pay gasol was a top 10 big man and he couldn't win a playoff game in the much tougher west. Take a look at the cavs roster with Irving as the main.

:lmao lollard

And lillard could and did. Why are you trying to argu against yourself?

If the Bobcats can make the playoffs, Irving should.

[ambchang]

:lol Lillard

Similar traditional stats (lillard slightly better), better ws, better bpm, better vorp.

But your emoticon makes a fantastic argument.

[hater]

And lillard could and did. Why are you trying to argu against yourself?

If the Bobcats can make the playoffs, Irving should.

:lmao u gotta be shitting me.

Lamarcus just by himself could make the playoffs. :lol lollard

[hater]

Lollard better than Kylie :lmao

[TDMVPDPOY]

cavs have 2 wankers who put up empty stats b4 lebron came along, and they continue to do so....

[ambchang]

:lmao u gotta be shitting me.

Lamarcus just by himself could make the playoffs. :lol lollard

And yet Lillard, has a higher WS, WS/48, BPM and VORP on the team.

Irving couldn't make the playoffs in the historically weak eastern conference until Lebron came along.

LaMarcus could make the playoffs in the much tougher Western conference just by himself.

Lillard was better than LaMarcus.


Lollard better than Kylie :lmao

You need more emoticons.

[hater]

:lmao LOLlard

[K...]

Can someone show me a hall of famer who played for a worse franchise than the Cavs?

This is something complicated.notice that most great players played for Lakers, Boston, etc?

LeBron, Garnett, and Vince Carter are probably the biggest loser in he cba era. Not everyone can be Duncan and Kobe and get paired up with an hof big.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Can someone show me a hall of famer who played for a worse franchise than the Cavs?

This is something complicated.notice that most great players played for Lakers, Boston, etc?

LeBron, Garnett, and Vince Carter are probably the biggest loser in he cba era. Not everyone can be Duncan and Kobe and get paired up with an hof big.

i dunno man.....all had the opportunity to play with good players who needed development, but they never gave those guys the time...

[ambchang]

:lmao LOLlard

Still led the Blazers to the playoffs in the Western Conference, something Irving cannot do on his own in the Eastern Conference.

Still posted better stats than Irving pretty much across the board.