Socialism takes another "L"

[Clipper Nation]

Another socialist country going bankrupt:


Some officials believe Thursday's meeting of euro zone finance ministers will be perhaps the last chance to stop Greece sliding into default and towards leaving the euro.

However the president of the so-called Eurogroup, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said the chance of an accord was "very small".
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102767018


Athens must find a way out of the impasse by the end of June, when it faces a 1.6 billion euro ($1.8 billion) repayment due to the International Monetary Fund, potentially leaving it bankrupt and on the verge of exiting the euro zone.


"People are getting anxious on both sides. Athens expects Brussels to move. And Brussels expects Athens to move. And it's stuck," said a senior EU diplomat, who declined to be named.


"It's very dangerous, and we may have an accident."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/17/us-eurozone-greece-cenbank-idUSKBN0OX0SR20150617


All this would imply deep recession, a dramatic decline in income levels, an exponential rise in unemployment and a collapse of all that the Greek economy has achieved over the years of its EU, and especially its euro area, membership. From its position as a core member of Europe, Greece would see itself relegated to the rank of a poor country in the European South.
http://www.bankofgreece.gr/Pages/en/Bank/News/PressReleases/DispItem.aspx?Item_ID=4988&List_ID=1af869f3-57fb-4de6-b9ae-bdfd83c66c95&Filter_by=DT

[ChumpDumper]

Creditor's demands seem unreasonable from what I've seen.

[m>s]

Creditor's demands seem unreasonable from what I've seen.
Explain

[ChumpDumper]

ExplainI've heard the cuts they wanted to make in already pretty modest pensions for example, and they were really quite steep. I can't see any Greek government agreeing to them as is.

[pgardn]

Wrong.

The Socialists just lied to the Greeks about getting them out of the debt mess.

Capitalism run amok along with big companies completely buying out Greek politicians is what did them in.
They have more than enough money to pay off that debt right now if they could get taxes Owed from all their big businessmen and the corrupt politicians they bought. Both are hiding their money in Swiss banks.

On a side note Unions also bought politicians, but not close to the extent big business did. All this corruption by big business imposed on corrupt officials finally caught up with them. This has been going on for a very long time. 2007 they got a massive warning shot across the bow and unlike other European countries they did not follow thru with a prescription that fit them, COLLECT taxes, especially from all the big and smaller businessmen that never paid them. 30 billion Euros. The debt due, about 1.7 billion...

And who wants to get rid of the IRS?

[boutons_deux]

Predatory, corrupts CAPITALISTS Goldman-SACKS showed Greece how to hide debt off the books so Greece could keep defrauding lenders and getting a lower interest rate, and keep getting further and further into debt. Greece's debt is only there because CAPITALISTS kept lending them money way beyond reason. Greece is no more corrupt than USA.

[pgardn]

Predatory, corrupts CAPITALISTS Goldman-SACKS showed Greece how to hide debt off the books so Greece could keep defrauding lenders and getting a lower interest rate, and keep getting further and further into debt. Greece's debt is only there because CAPITALISTS kept lending them money way beyond reason. Greece is no more corrupt than USA.

BS

They made their own bed. Greek greed and an endemic corrupt way of doing business. They made half-hearted attempts to change things. You constantly attempt to fit your tired theme to every worldwide financial crisis. Just stop it.

No more corrupt than the U.S.?

BS

You have no idea how bad corruption can get because you live in the U.S.

[Winehole23]

it's possible both that the Greeks are wrong to blame all their problems on foreign interference and that the EU bollixed things up more than it has helped,

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_17/06/2015_551127

[Winehole23]

from Varoufakis's speech to the Eurogroup. More austerity sounds like a tall order, politically:


That Greece needs to adjust there is no doubt. The question, however, is not how much adjustment Greece needs to make. It is, rather, what kind of adjustment. If by ‘adjustment’ we mean fiscal consolidation, wage and pension cuts, and tax rate increases, it is clear we have done more of that than any other country in peacetime.




The public sector’s structural, or cyclically adjusted, fiscal deficit turned into a surplus on the back of a ‘world record beating’ 20% adjustment
Wages fell by 37%
Pensions were reduced by up to 48%
State employment diminished by 30%
Consumer spending was curtailed by 33%
Even the nation’s chronic current account deficit dropped by 16%.


No one can say that Greece has not adjusted to its new, post-2008, circumstances. But what we can say is that gigantic adjustment, whether necessary or not, has produced more problems than it solved:




Aggregate real GDP fell by 27% while nominal GDP continued to fall quarter-in-quarter-out for 18 quarters non-stop to this day

Unemployment skyrocketed to 27%


Undeclared labour reached 34%
Banks are labouring under non-performing loans that exceed 40% in value
Public debt has exceeded 180% of GDP
Young well-qualified people are abandoning Greece in droves
Poverty, hunger and energy deprivation have registered increases usually associated with a state at war
Investment in productive capacity has evaporated.



http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/18/greeces-proposals-to-end-the-crisis-my-intervention-at-todays-eurogroup/

[pgardn]

from Varoufakis's speech to the Eurogroup. More austerity sounds like a tall order, politically:



http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/18/greeces-proposals-to-end-the-crisis-my-intervention-at-todays-eurogroup/

It does indeed.

If one looks at their endemic tax evasion and fiscal irresponsibility the problem seems clear but entrenched. They refused offers by the Germans to help advise on tax collection. They made half hearted attempts to shame some of the wealthiest evaders in the papers. The current government is playing chicken with a train.

They are are in a situation in the making over many years.

[boutons_deux]

how is Greece "socialist", on the improbable assumption that a Clipper fan knows what socialism is?

[Blizzardwizard]

The incumbent party at the time of the crash was socially democratic and big on capitalism, clearly not socialist. Conservatism has never failed, right? I mean just look at all that wealth equali-oh.

[Clipper Nation]

You do realize that Greece crashed because their socialist welfare state collapsed under its own weight and became unaffordable, right? At the time of the crash, less than 50% of the population worked for a living, and 42% of government spending went to entitlements alone. Socialism is nothing but a one-way trip to bankruptcy.

Capitalism

The Free Market

Ludwig von Mises

[Blizzardwizard]

You do realize that Greece crashed because their socialist welfare state collapsed under its own weight and became unaffordable, right? At the time of the crash, less than 50% of the population worked for a living, and 42% of government spending went to entitlements alone. Socialism is nothing but a one-way trip to bankruptcy.

Capitalism

The Free Market

Ludwig von Mises

You pick and choose with your facts don't you? So the welfare state was the exact reason and entirely why Greece is how it is now?

Ok. Do you.

[boutons_deux]

You do realize that Greece crashed because their socialist welfare state collapsed under its own weight and became unaffordable, right? At the time of the crash, less than 50% of the population worked for a living, and 42% of government spending went to entitlements alone. Socialism is nothing but a one-way trip to bankruptcy.

Capitalism

The Free Market

Ludwig von Mises

Greece has always been a very poor country.

No natural resources, very little arable land.

After WWII, the CAPITALIST USA/CIA setup and supported a Greek military dictatorship, which naturally, as always, was corrupt, hated by the people (who minimized their cooperation) and lasted for 20 years. The corruption of tax avoidance, tax evasion, govt corruption, underground/cash economy (untaxed) starved the govt of tax revenues, NOT SOCIALIST governance.

your adored "free market" in USA is myth, where the actual market is a coporatocracy compromising govt for the enrichment, protection, enabling of the VRWC, BigCorp, 1%, and which has produced World Champion inequality and a work force, impoverished, enslaved, under-privileged like no other in industrial economies which are SOCIAL democracies.

[Winehole23]

the beauty of placing all your chips on philosophical abstractions is never having to descend to details.

[ElNono]

Greece needs to give them the middle finger, move to it's own currency and be a sovereign country again. The people of Greece elected their government to make policy decisions and run the country, not the IMF or the Eurobank.

They'll take a hit now, but they'll be better in the long run.

[vy65]

This is like that article about the NYT guy who purposefully defaulted on his student loans.

Greek politicians knew the terms of their arrangements with the IMF and the EU/ECB. It's on the Greeks to live up to those terms -- not the financial institutions keeping the country afloat.

[Nbadan]

Greece is really going broke because the rich don't pay taxes


That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.
...
Experts point out that ducking taxes is part of a broader culture of bribery and corruption that is deeply entrenched.
...
The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[boutons_deux]

"Greece is really going broke because the rich don't pay taxes"

identical problem in USA

A report this week showed Walmart to have bank accounts in countries where it doesn't have stores

Walmart Uses 22 Shell Companies to Hide an Incredible Amount of Money in Luxembourg


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/06/walmart-tax-evasion-luxembourg

[Nbadan]

Ending Greece’s Nightmare by Krugman



You see, the economic projections that accompanied the standby arrangement assumed that Greece could impose harsh austerity with little effect on growth and employment. Greece was already in recession when the deal was reached, but the projections assumed that this downturn would end soon — that there would be only a small contraction in 2011, and that by 2012 Greece would be recovering. Unemployment, the projections conceded, would rise substantially, from 9.4 percent in 2009 to almost 15 percent in 2012, but would then begin coming down fairly quickly.

What actually transpired was an economic and human nightmare. . .

Why were the original projections so wildly overoptimistic? As I said, because supposedly hardheaded officials were in reality engaged in fantasy economics. Both the European Commission and the European Central Bank decided to believe in the confidence fairy — that is, to claim that the direct job-destroying effects of spending cuts would be more than made up for by a surge in private-sector optimism. The I.M.F. was more cautious, but it nonetheless grossly underestimated the damage austerity would do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-nightmare.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-
span-region

And from the New York Times:

'The moneyed elites’ aversion to paying taxes must be brought to an end, along with the corruption, nepotism and cronyism in government. Opposing austerity does not mean abandoning reform as a group of prominent economists wrote recently in The Financial Times.'

[ElNono]

This is like that article about the NYT guy who purposefully defaulted on his student loans.

Greek politicians knew the terms of their arrangements with the IMF and the EU/ECB. It's on the Greeks to live up to those terms -- not the financial institutions keeping the country afloat.

There's no bankruptcy in sovereign debt. We're well past the Greeks living up to the terms, it didn't happen for whatever reason. Different political parties have been in control over this period.

They're already treated like deadbeats, and getting more loans to pay previous loans is only gonna get them deeper in the hole.

Maybe it's time to blow it up and start over with the lenders... and let the chips fall where they may...

[Nbadan]

What's Going On In Greece?


Which is where we are today. The only country listed above not to be starved into submission was Iceland, who kicked the bankers out in a national election some time ago and forced debt-holders to eat the debt. Greece, on the other hand, tried to repair itself on terms good for the debt-holders, and it's being eaten. Syriza has a (belated) opportunity to correct that error, though as Ian Welsh points out, much of the damaging privatization has already been done. (Did you know that selling off, "privatizing," the ancient Athenian port of Piraeus was part of the austerity demands? Piraeus was a Greek port before Socrates was born.)

As Krugman points out in his conclusion, the Syriza solution may not be radical enough to produce a real recovery from depression, and it's unlikely that Greece will exit the euro soon — the ultimate, though painful, solution, in my opinion.

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/gaius-publius/60762/whats-going-on-in-greece

[vy65]

There's no bankruptcy in sovereign debt. We're well past the Greeks living up to the terms, it didn't happen for whatever reason. Different political parties have been in control over this period.

They're already treated like deadbeats, and getting more loans to pay previous loans is only gonna get them deeper in the hole.

Maybe it's time to blow it up and start over with the lenders... and let the chips fall where they may...

Never said anything about bankruptcy -- just that they knew what they were getting in to, so I have 0 sympathy for them complaining about :cry mean creditors :cry

I go back and forth on letting them default. I dunno if the short term impact would outweigh long term benefits.

[ElNono]

Never said anything about bankruptcy -- just that they knew what they were getting in to, so I have 0 sympathy for them complaining about :cry mean creditors :cry

I go back and forth on letting them default. I dunno if the short term impact would outweigh long term benefits.

Agreed. That said, in practice, the whole sovereign debt gone sour thing quickly turns into policy control, which is where I think the whole "mean creditors" thing comes from.

And frankly, the IMF has a terrible track record of helping countries get out of debt.

[pgardn]

The current government meeting with Putin for some perceived leverage was more than a slight miscalculation and just silly.


The best prescription may be Nono idea. But once the chips have settled, there has to be some sort of competent guidance or it won't be pretty at all.

[ElNono]

The current government meeting with Putin for some perceived leverage was more than a slight miscalculation and just silly.

The best prescription may be Nono idea. But once the chips have settled, there has to be some sort of competent guidance or it won't be pretty at all.

It's their country, let them do whatever they want. They will get through the inevitable crisis, and move on. At that point, lenders are going to come knocking asking to get paid but Greece is going to have much, much more leverage than they do now. Either that, or lenders are going to do what hedge funds did in the Argentina case and sue in New York for money that they can't embargo or collect.

This is why the IMF has been pushing hard for a international bankruptcy court to deal with sovereign debt. They don't have any actionable recourse if a country decides to default.

[pgardn]

It's their country, let them do whatever they want. They will get through the inevitable crisis, and move on. At that point, lenders are going to come knocking asking to get paid but Greece is going to have much, much more leverage than they do now. Either that, or lenders are going to do what hedge funds did in the Argentina case and sue in New York for money that they can't embargo or collect.

This is why the IMF has been pushing hard for a international bankruptcy court to deal with sovereign debt. They don't have any actionable recourse if a country decides to default.

I don't know what get through and moving on means.
Ending up like say, Bulgaria, is not getting through and moving on imo.

[ElNono]

I don't know what get through and moving on means.
Ending up like say, Bulgaria, is not getting through and moving on imo.

It means the sun will keep on rising and setting in Greece. And the proud Greek will continue in the never-ending quest to survive, like the vast majority of people around the world. With their own difficulties and challenges.

They were sold on being a member of the Union as the "better" option... but "better" is a subjective term. For the average Greek, it's been a nightmare that seemingly has no end.

Maybe they don't belong. Maybe they just wasted an unique opportunity. It's all water under the bridge now.

Retake control of the country and shape it in any way they want. If they want to shape it in the form of a turd, then that's their choice.

[pgardn]

It means the sun will keep on rising and setting in Greece. And the proud Greek will continue in the never-ending quest to survive, like the vast majority of people around the world. With their own difficulties and challenges.

They were sold on being a member of the Union as the "better" option... but "better" is a subjective term. For the average Greek, it's been a nightmare that seemingly has no end.

Maybe they don't belong. Maybe they just wasted an unique opportunity. It's all water under the bridge now.

Retake control of the country and shape it in any way they want. If they want to shape it in the form of a turd, then that's their choice.

History is not easily forgotten.
Greek culture gave the world a bit of a boost.
Gotta be humbling.

And being an average Bulgarian is not going to convince an average Greek that it cannot really go completely into the shitter. But it's all relative I guess. If everyone around you is in a living hell you might not know any better. Just shut the history and don't travel to the rest of Western Europe.

[ElNono]

History is not easily forgotten.
Greek culture gave the world a bit of a boost.
Gotta be humbling.

And being an average Bulgarian is not going to convince an average Greek that it cannot really go completely into the shitter. But it's all relative I guess. If everyone around you is in a living hell you might not know any better. Just shut the history and don't travel to the rest of Western Europe.

At the very least, it's the end of the excuses. If they gotta eat shit, well, it's not because big bad Europe told them to.

I've lived through some of this IMF policy bullshit, so I certainly can't claim to be completely unbiased. I just think that when you're living in democracy you vote for an idea on how to run the country and if it ends up sucking, you live with the consequences. But what kind of democracy is it if no matter who you vote has to be subservient to the policy decisions of some technocrats miles away from your country.

[velik_m]

Agreed. That said, in practice, the whole sovereign debt gone sour thing quickly turns into policy control, which is where I think the whole "mean creditors" thing comes from.

And frankly, the IMF has a terrible track record of helping countries get out of debt.

Has there ever been an IMF "success" story? I'm genuinely interested. It seems they at best they just prolong the inevitable and usually just make things worse in the long run. I mean i get that the general idea is ok - lend some money to help the country get its shit together in the meantime, but it never seems to play out that way.

[ElNono]

Has there ever been an IMF "success" story? I'm genuinely interested. It seems they at best they just prolong the inevitable and usually just make things worse in the long run. I mean i get that the general idea is ok - lend some money to help the country get its shit together in the meantime, but it never seems to play out that way.

I remember in the late 90's they touted Brazil and Argentina as their success stories. By the early 2000, both countries' economy went into the shitter.

[ElNono]

This is a couple of years old now, but a good read on this topic nonetheless:
http://roarmag.org/2013/06/the-imfs-mistakes-on-greece-are-nothing-new/

[boutons_deux]

A couple years ago, in the "disaster capitalism" strategy, 0.1%er Steve Forbes had meeting of capitalists to show what Greek state companies, Greek islands, were being sold to raise "one-time" cash. IMF, bankers like Goldman-SACKS create a crisis, then move in to buy stuff cheap.

[pgardn]

A couple years ago, in the "disaster capitalism" strategy, 0.1%er Steve Forbes had meeting of capitalists to show what Greek state companies, Greek islands, were being sold to raise "one-time" cash. IMF, bankers like Goldman-SACKS create a crisis, then move in to buy stuff cheap.

So the Greeks were helpless pawns the whole time.

Same old BS boots.

[boutons_deux]

So the Greeks were helpless pawns the whole time.

Same old BS boots.

:lol what? :lol

Steve Forbes Is In Athens Right Now For Conference On Carving Up Greek Assets
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-forbes-greek-power-summit-2011-6

[pgardn]

:lol what? :lol

Steve Forbes Is In Athens Right Now For Conference On Carving Up Greek Assets
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-forbes-greek-power-summit-2011-6

Uhhhh

What led to creditors trying to get their money back from Greece?
If you had bought Greek bonds would you want your money back?

Water under the bridge.

[boutons_deux]

Uhhhh

What led to creditors trying to get their money back from Greece?
If you had bought Greek bonds would you want your money back?

Water under the bridge.

not for the Greeks.

you analogy is just like predatory lenders selling unpayable loans to poor old people with their houses collateral (aka "capitalists creating a disaster to profit from"), then taking their houses in foreclosure.

[pgardn]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-n-liveris/a-global-effort-for-greec_b_6185204.html

Read

This is not new.

[pgardn]

You continue to try and make your simplistic themes fit every situation.

[boutons_deux]

You continue to try and make your simplistic themes fit every situation.

:lol

[unleashbaynes]

Pretty sure it doesn't matter who the fuck is running your country or what type of gov't you have in place as long as you have resources......

[pgardn]

Pretty sure it doesn't matter who the fuck is running your country or what type of gov't you have in place as long as you have resources......

Japan would beg to differ.

[pgardn]

:lol

Just like these folks that can't get evolution thru their thick skulls.
They don't like the implications clashing with a sacred worldview.
You are the parallel line in this forum.

Again falling back on the emoticon says it all.

[boutons_deux]

Just like these folks that can't get evolution thru their thick skulls.
They don't like the implications clashing with a sacred worldview.
You are the parallel line in this forum.

Again falling back on the emoticon says it all.

:lol you're butthurt as always

[Blizzardwizard]

Hey, Clipper Nation (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=28500)

If socialism is really losing and withering away, what's with all these anti-austerity marchers today in London?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH9hkdeWwAAJHdF.jpg


I guess you and your Libertarians like austerity as it's an effective way of sapping money from public government run services as well as poor people.

[Clipper Nation]

Hey, Clipper Nation (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=28500)

If socialism is really losing and withering away, what's with all these anti-austerity marchers today in London?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH9hkdeWwAAJHdF.jpg


I guess you and your Libertarians like austerity as it's an effective way of sapping money from public government run services as well as poor people.
Just goes to show how people in Europe have been conditioned to accept and feel entitled to handouts as a way of life. Now that the welfare state is unaffordable, nobody knows how to deal with reality. Sad state of affairs, tbh.

[Blizzardwizard]

Now that the welfare state is unaffordable, nobody knows how to deal with reality. Sad state of affairs, tbh.

No, it really isn't. I'm guessing you'll somehow use Greece as an example of it failing, despite the fact that Greece was caught up in a world crisis caused by bankers and tax evasion. Homelessness was at an all time British low as well as food bank dependency and in general poorness when the welfare state was thriving under a socially democratic government from 97 to 2010 in Britain. Shame capitalists and bankers decided to crash the economy and blame it on the Labour government at the time, which has ultimately resulted in Conservatism and austerity..

[Clipper Nation]

No, it really isn't. I'm guessing you'll somehow use Greece as an example of it failing, despite the fact that Greece was caught up in a world crisis caused by bankers and tax evasion. Homelessness was at an all time British low as well as food bank dependency and in general poorness when the welfare state was thriving under a socially democratic government from 97 to 2010 in Britain. Shame capitalists and bankers decided to crash the economy and blame it on the Labour government at the time, which has ultimately resulted in Conservatism and austerity..
Sorry, but the welfare state is over capacity and never going back to where it was. You're going to have to work for a living now, tbh.

[Blizzardwizard]

Sorry, but the welfare state is over capacity and never going back to where it was. You're going to have to work for a living now, tbh.

If the big corporations delved into their pockets and actually paid their employees a living wage there would be no need for a welfare state. You conservatives bring it on yourselves..

[Clipper Nation]

:cry Give me handouts :cry

[Blizzardwizard]

translation: I can't respond to your point as it has too much truth in it so here's some emoticons.

[Slutter McGee]

Imagine if we didn't subsidize Europe's military.

Slutter McGee

[Slutter McGee]

Hey, Clipper Nation (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=28500)

If socialism is really losing and withering away, what's with all these anti-austerity marchers today in London?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH9hkdeWwAAJHdF.jpg


I guess you and your Libertarians like austerity as it's an effective way of sapping money from public government run services as well as poor people.

Yes, that is it. Exactly. Jesus. Its like the liberals read Keynes and then thought (whoa we can deficit spend...awesome). Then they decided that the "short run" was just a silly suggestion.

Slutter McGee

[boutons_deux]

Yes, that is it. Exactly. Jesus. Its like the liberals read Keynes and then thought (whoa we can deficit spend...awesome). Then they decided that the "short run" was just a silly suggestion.

Slutter McGee

It's like you Repugs thought you could start and botch two wars AND cut taxes by the $Ts while not increasing your hypocritically hated national debt.