Phil Jackson: LeBron James travels half the time he catches the ball

[spursparker9]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/22/phil-jackson-lebron-james-travels-half-the-time-he-catches-the-ball/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

[Budkin]

:lmao

[Killakobe81]

True so does Harden and plenty of others ...

[Pelicans78]

Crab dribble is not a travel.

[Dex]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/426462/lebron-crab-dribble-o.gif

[Killakobe81]

Crab dribble is not a travel.

sometimes it is not often time it is. Just like the euro step ...Cant say either one is always a travel

[UZER]

steph curry travels all the time too. Some of the ways these guys get their shots off away from defenders is impossible without extra steps/shuffles.

It's like "how the hell are you supposed to defend that if they're not gonna call travel!!"

They've always been lenient on traveling, but damn it's getting bad now.

[ducks]

lot of push off james does

[ambchang]

So Jackson was complaining about individualizing the sport with four guys standing around when Lebron had a regular season high usage rate of 33.8, postseason at 37.6, and the last series vs. Cleveland at 40.8, when
- Kobe, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, had usage rates of 38.7, 35.7, 35.1 in three separate seasons.
- Jordan, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, led the league in usage rates 7 times (including usage rates of 34.7, 33.7 twice, and 33.3), led the league in post season usage rate 5 out of the 6 times they rung (with a high of 38), and a usage rate of 38.9 vs. the Suns in the finals?

[UZER]

^^this is classic phil hypocrisy...

Call out others for the same thing he's doing did. I still remember him complaining about Frank Brickowskis goon tactics while having Rodman on his team.

[Killakobe81]

lot of push off james does

Did it to Iggy a ton this Finals and Kiwi last year ...

[HI-FI]

^^this is classic phil hypocrisy...

Call out others for the same thing he's doing did. I still remember him complaining about Frank Brickowskis goon tactics while having Rodman on his team.
Or like bitching about the refs when Kobe and MJ benefitted the most from superstar calls. He calls the lockout year an asterisk but shuts up about 2002. I remember him saying Nash gets away with carrying all the time. Phil is too hypocritical and petty for me to label him the GOAT of coaches.

[Killakobe81]

So Jackson was complaining about individualizing the sport with four guys standing around when Lebron had a regular season high usage rate of 33.8, postseason at 37.6, and the last series vs. Cleveland at 40.8, when
- Kobe, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, had usage rates of 38.7, 35.7, 35.1 in three separate seasons.
- Jordan, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, led the league in usage rates 7 times (including usage rates of 34.7, 33.7 twice, and 33.3), led the league in post season usage rate 5 out of the 6 times they rung (with a high of 38), and a usage rate of 38.9 vs. the Suns in the finals?

PJ is a egotist, asshole and hypocrite. None of that changes the rings on his fingers ...

[ambchang]

PJ is a egotist, asshole and hypocrite. None of that changes the rings on his fingers ...

:rolleyes

Ring talk again. For someone with his ego, it's hilarious how he could get on his knees about some of the best players who carried him to rings. He did it to Jordan and did it to Shaq. That guy is one spineless man.

[Buddy Mignon]

Or like bitching about the refs when Kobe and MJ benefitted the most from superstar calls. He calls the lockout year an asterisk but shuts up about 2002. I remember him saying Nash gets away with carrying all the time. Phil is too hypocritical and petty for me to label him the GOAT of coaches.

Pop sits his starters during prime time games. He bitches and moans to the league about other teams trades. It doesn't get more petty than that. But I'm sure you didn't have Pop as GOAT coaches.

[UZER]

PJ is a egotist, asshole and hypocrite. None of that changes the rings on his fingers ...

Or anyone else's...

[Killakobe81]

:rolleyes

Ring talk again. For someone with his ego, it's hilarious how he could get on his knees about some of the best players who carried him to rings. He did it to Jordan and did it to Shaq. That guy is one spineless man.

Because in the end it is what matters. I will never forgive his ass for pushing out West but bottomline is we short 5 without him ...
I wouldnt want him as an employer ... but as a fan of the team he gets results like PArcells on Steroids.
Pop treats reporters like shit and yall forgive him because he wins ...

In the end amb, it's what matters. rings.

[Buddy Mignon]

Because in the end it is what matters. I will never forgive his ass for pushing out West but bottomline is we short 5 without him ...
I wouldnt want him as an employer ... but as a fan of the team he gets results like PArcells on Steroids.
Pop treats reporters like shit and yall forgive him because he wins ...

In the end amb, it's what matters. rings.

Reporters need to be treated like shit. PJ had nothing to do with West leaving.

[Chris]

"Only pussies and assholes complain about the officiating"

[Killakobe81]

"Only pussies and assholes complain about the officiating"

LOL

[Killakobe81]

Reporters need to be treated like shit. PJ had nothing to do with West leaving.

bullshit. Unless you claim West is lying but all evidence points to him being right about Phil.
Click here (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-was-no-fan-of-Jerry-West-says-Jerr?urn=nba-wp8308).

Phil kicked him out of the lockerroom tried to show west who was boss and besides he was banging the bosses daughter ...

Jackson famously demanded West leave the Laker locker room following a game, using an expletive in the process (Kawakami quotes it in his excerpt). In Jackson's defense, he's long championed the idea that the players and coaching staff should be a very insular group, even to the point of excluding significant team personnel. In West's defense, Phil didn't have to be a jerk about it.

grateful for the 5 he helped deliver but he will never be higher than West or Riles in Lakers lore (for me).

[ambchang]

Pop sits his starters during prime time games. He bitches and moans to the league about other teams trades. It doesn't get more petty than that. But I'm sure you didn't have Pop as GOAT coaches.

I never expected you to get sarcasm and comments in jest.

Do they have sarcasm and comments in jest in Naruto?

[Thebesteva]

“The game actually has some beauty to it, and we’ve kind of taken some of that out of it to make it individualized,” Jackson said. “It’s a lot of who we are as a country, individualized stuff.”Indeed, Jackson seems much less concerned with validating the triangle than with the state of the game itself.
“When I watch some of these playoff games, and I look at what’s being run out there, as what people call an offense, it’s really quite remarkable to see how far our game has fallen from a team game,” Jackson said. “Four guys stand around watching one guy dribble a basketball.”

Fuckin Legend

[ambchang]

Because in the end it is what matters. I will never forgive his ass for pushing out West but bottomline is we short 5 without him ...
I wouldnt want him as an employer ... but as a fan of the team he gets results like PArcells on Steroids.
Pop treats reporters like shit and yall forgive him because he wins ...

In the end amb, it's what matters. rings.

Rings is what matters, but you are assuming that Phil is the only one who can make things happen with those rosters, and that is not true.

In fact, an argument could be made that Jackson cost the Lakers rings by further dividing the rift between Shaq and Kobe, ending in the breakup of the team. Shaq still had a couple of good years left, and Kobe was starting to peak, if they managed the ego correctly, the Lakers may be able to squeeze a couple more rings from it.

His work in 09 and 10 was great though, not too many people have the ability to really run the offense through the oversized frontline and giving all the credit to Kobe, making Kobe think that he was the main reason for the wins and satisfy his ego that way. Perhaps he learned from the Shaq-Kobe feud.

[Buddy Mignon]

bullshit. Unless you claim West is lying but all evidence points to him being right about Phil.
Click here (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-was-no-fan-of-Jerry-West-says-Jerr?urn=nba-wp8308).

Phil kicked him out of the lockerroom tried to show west who was boss and besides he was banging the bosses daughter ...

Jackson famously demanded West leave the Laker locker room following a game, using an expletive in the process (Kawakami quotes it in his excerpt). In Jackson's defense, he's long championed the idea that the players and coaching staff should be a very insular group, even to the point of excluding significant team personnel. In West's defense, Phil didn't have to be a jerk about it.

grateful for the 5 he helped deliver but he will never be higher than West or Riles in Lakers lore (for me).

If what West says is true then he's weaker than I thought. I'm under the impression that he wanted to be compensated for rebuilding the team by adding Shaq, Rice and Kobe. But even worse... Dr. Buss was leaning towards transitioning the teams responsibilities to his sorry ass children. West was a visionary... but I'm not buying the story about him claiming he left the team because PJ didn't speak to him in the morning and kicked him and Mitch out of the locker room.

[Killakobe81]

Rings is what matters, but you are assuming that Phil is the only one who can make things happen with those rosters, and that is not true.

In fact, an argument could be made that Jackson cost the Lakers rings by further dividing the rift between Shaq and Kobe, ending in the breakup of the team. Shaq still had a couple of good years left, and Kobe was starting to peak, if they managed the ego correctly, the Lakers may be able to squeeze a couple more rings from it.

His work in 09 and 10 was great though, not too many people have the ability to really run the offense through the oversized frontline and giving all the credit to Kobe, making Kobe think that he was the main reason for the wins and satisfy his ego that way. Perhaps he learned from the Shaq-Kobe feud.

You always ruin a good post with bullshit at the end ... a piece of advice. When you make a good basketball post and you are closing with a Kobe dig ... don't. Save those for the troll thread because it makes what come before it, shit.

I agree he did cost us in 2004 and beyond by feeding in to the bullshit. Butthat same ego also helped get shaq to refocus for 2000. Bottomline is a lazy unmotivated shaq needs Riles or Phil to win. He had brilliant X and O coaches liek SVG and Del harris and he couldnt win shit that way even with talented team-mates. Hate him or Love him Phil gets results. Pop, Riles and RC are only 3 coaches that gets close to the 5 Phil won in L.A. he was also the best at reining in Kobe's bad shot selection. he alsoe found use for past his prime ron Harper and Derek Fisher. Successfully managed rodman and Artest.

A true HO'er a asshole but still the ring master.

[Killakobe81]

If what West says is true then he's weaker than I thought. I'm under the impression that he wanted to be compensated for rebuilding the team by adding Shaq, Rice and Kobe. But even worse... Dr. Buss was leaning towards transitioning the teams responsibilities to his sorry ass children. West was a visionary... but I'm not buying the story about him claiming he left the team because PJ didn't speak to him in the morning and kicked him and Mitch out of the locker room.

West has ego like all successful men do ... getting emasculated by Phil in front of team as he grows in power and is banging Jeanie ...I would have left to. Not saying PJ intitiated his outster but he made it uncomfortable ...

[Buddy Mignon]

West has ego like all successful men do ... getting emasculated by Phil in front of team as he grows in power and is banging Jeanie ...I would have left to. Not saying PJ intitiated his outster but he made it uncomfortable ...

Killa... you're missing the whole point. Logo is using PJ as a scapegoat. Logo wanted to be compensated. But even more-so... he didn't want to take orders from Jerry's incompetent kids. The daughter was fucking the newly hired coach and the loser son Jim, had just came aboard. I don't blame Logo for leaving, but his excuses are dishonest. Mitch got kicked out of that same locker room... he didn't complain. There is no great coach worth his salt that will allow upper management to hover over him while he's doing his job.

[whitemamba]

Pjax with the zen like wisdom. but hes right tbh, lebron does pack his bags quite often.

[hitmanyr2k]

So Jackson was complaining about individualizing the sport with four guys standing around when Lebron had a regular season high usage rate of 33.8, postseason at 37.6, and the last series vs. Cleveland at 40.8, when
- Kobe, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, had usage rates of 38.7, 35.7, 35.1 in three separate seasons.
- Jordan, under the coaching of Phil Jackson, led the league in usage rates 7 times (including usage rates of 34.7, 33.7 twice, and 33.3), led the league in post season usage rate 5 out of the 6 times they rung (with a high of 38), and a usage rate of 38.9 vs. the Suns in the finals?

Eh, usage rate really doesn't give the whole story about the way someone plays. That's where stats can be deceiving. The way Jordan and Lebron scored and assisted on shots is night and day really. I think what Phil Jackson is getting at is Jordan wasn't holding the ball while his whole team cleared to the weakside so he can go one on one over and over and over again unless it was late in the 4th. He wasn't constantly shaking and baking at the top of the key for an eternity like James Harden. Jordan was a great one on one player and all but if people paid attention to the way he scored they would see he had a great off ball game and many of his points came on catch and shoots and moving within the offense...something the ISO coaches/stars of today can't seem to grasp. That's something usage doesn't take into account which is why these stats people like to cite are flawed.

[Killakobe81]

Killa... you're missing the whole point. Logo is using PJ as a scapegoat. Logo wanted to be compensated. But even more-so... he didn't want to take orders from Jerry's incompetent kids. The daughter was fucking the newly hired coach and the loser son Jim, had just came aboard. I don't blame Logo for leaving, but his excuses are dishonest. Mitch got kicked out of that same locker room... he didn't complain. There is no great coach worth his salt that will allow upper management to hover over him while he's doing his job.

sorry but west is different. and in essence he was the boss of both guys or at least should have been ...maybe West did want to place blame but dont act as though PJ is innocent here. Like I said the results are what ultimately matters but Phil is a asshole, period and has shown that many times over. I dont mind assholes Kobe is one too but just calling a spade a spade. But I do stop when West is getting disrespected by Pjax ...

[Killakobe81]

Eh, usage rate really doesn't give the whole story about the way someone plays. That's where stats can be deceiving. The way Jordan and Lebron scored and assisted on shots is night and day really. I think what Phil Jackson is getting at is Jordan wasn't holding the ball while his whole team cleared to the weakside so he can go one on one over and over and over again unless it was late in the 4th. He wasn't constantly shaking and baking at the top of the key for an eternity like James Harden. Jordan was a great one on one player and all but if people paid attention to the way he scored they would see he had a great off ball game and many of his points came on catch and shoots and moving within the offense...something the ISO coaches/stars of today can't seem to grasp. That's something usage doesn't take into account which is why these stats people like to cite are flawed.

All stats are flawed ... without context. Solid post, hitman.

[Franklin]

same for another James tbh (James Harden), superstar prerogative.

[John Petrucci]

Funny. I've always thought Melo was one of the worst offenders when it comes to traveling before he ever dribbles.

[DMC]

Phil is a real nowhere man sitting in his nowhere land thinking of his nowhere plan for nobody... except Melo.

[dbestpro]

Jordan was a great player and fun to watch, but in truth he ushered in the age of the superstar travel.

[therealtruth]

I thought they were making an effort to enforce traveling a while ago.

[Tuddy]

It's true, but then he goes onto say we've individualised the game:lmao You're 25 years late there buddy

[dg7md]

Jordan was a great player and fun to watch, but in truth he ushered in the age of the superstar travel.

Seemed a bit like an inevitability anyway. Nobody really wants a game full of traveling violations and it's very clear that superstars get favorable treatments.

I'm not concerned about it, traveling should always be a rule, but it should be hardly enforced unless it's entirely egregious (often when fans groan at seeing it, for example), LeBron doesn't really do it in a way that is something that I'd call constant.

[Strange Love]

Water is also wet.

I wonder why the league allows this shit to happen? Not only with James but pretty much anyone these days gets a pass. It's kind of becoming the norm.

I remember this game where Duncan hit a game winner where he traveled big time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQwwyHDIx8

[DMC]

Phil bitching about iso and PnR. Didn't he have Kobe for a few years?

[Infinite_limit]

Phil NUKED the current game. We all knew it: just like in the NFL: the product has declined. Dumb Americans keep eating it up

[DMC]

Phil NUKED the current game. We all knew it: just like in the NFL: the product has declined. Dumb Americans keep eating it up

Phil has no room. He has a team at his disposal who cannot even make the playoffs in the East.

[Infinite_limit]

Phil is a real nowhere man sitting in his nowhere land thinking of his nowhere plan for nobody... except Melo.
Hahah. BEATLES!

[Chris]

Phil is a real nowhere man sitting in his nowhere land thinking of his nowhere plan for nobody... except Melo.

http://i61.tinypic.com/29ljuat.gif

[Killakobe81]

Hahah. BEATLES!

Couldnt place it but knew it came from somewhere ... LOL

Still was a good retort by DMC ...

[ambchang]

You always ruin a good post with bullshit at the end ... a piece of advice. When you make a good basketball post and you are closing with a Kobe dig ... don't. Save those for the troll thread because it makes what come before it, shit.

I agree he did cost us in 2004 and beyond by feeding in to the bullshit. Butthat same ego also helped get shaq to refocus for 2000. Bottomline is a lazy unmotivated shaq needs Riles or Phil to win. He had brilliant X and O coaches liek SVG and Del harris and he couldnt win shit that way even with talented team-mates. Hate him or Love him Phil gets results. Pop, Riles and RC are only 3 coaches that gets close to the 5 Phil won in L.A. he was also the best at reining in Kobe's bad shot selection. he alsoe found use for past his prime ron Harper and Derek Fisher. Successfully managed rodman and Artest.

A true HO'er a asshole but still the ring master.

No question he is the ring master, 11 rings are 11 rings, there really isn't any way around it. But to say that he is a better coach than Pop, Larry Brown, Chuck Daly, Red Auerbach and other great coaches strictly because of his 11 rings is misleading. There's context around it, and Jackson really didn't bring anything revolutionary to the game like Pop (minutes management, pass-oriented game that's stolen from Europe/Suns/Kings) Chuck Daly (bench usage and tough nose defense), Red Auerbach (using coloured players, fast break using Russell as the center-piece), Jack Ramsay (Physical fitness), Larry Brown (incredible knowledge of the game) did. The only thing Jackson was known for was the triangle, and it was brought in by Tex Winter.

[ambchang]

Eh, usage rate really doesn't give the whole story about the way someone plays. That's where stats can be deceiving. The way Jordan and Lebron scored and assisted on shots is night and day really. I think what Phil Jackson is getting at is Jordan wasn't holding the ball while his whole team cleared to the weakside so he can go one on one over and over and over again unless it was late in the 4th. He wasn't constantly shaking and baking at the top of the key for an eternity like James Harden. Jordan was a great one on one player and all but if people paid attention to the way he scored they would see he had a great off ball game and many of his points came on catch and shoots and moving within the offense...something the ISO coaches/stars of today can't seem to grasp. That's something usage doesn't take into account which is why these stats people like to cite are flawed.

That's the difference between having Pippen as your wing man vs. having JR Smith as your wing man? Who is going to pass the ball to Lebron for a catch and shoot?

Note that Lebron didn't have to pull what he pulled vs. the GSW when he was with the Heat.

[Infinite_limit]

No question he is the ring master, 11 rings are 11 rings, there really isn't any way around it. But to say that he is a better coach than Pop, Larry Brown, Chuck Daly, Red Auerbach and other great coaches strictly because of his 11 rings is misleading. There's context around it, and Jackson really didn't bring anything revolutionary to the game like Pop (minutes management, pass-oriented game that's stolen from Europe/Suns/Kings) Chuck Daly (bench usage and tough nose defense), Red Auerbach (using coloured players, fast break using Russell as the center-piece), Jack Ramsay (Physical fitness), Larry Brown (incredible knowledge of the game) did. The only thing Jackson was known for was the triangle, and it was brought in by Tex Winter.
Phil deserves extra respect for being a rotation guy for a 2-time Champion (Knicks)

[Killakobe81]

No question he is the ring master, 11 rings are 11 rings, there really isn't any way around it. But to say that he is a better coach than Pop, Larry Brown, Chuck Daly, Red Auerbach and other great coaches strictly because of his 11 rings is misleading. There's context around it, and Jackson really didn't bring anything revolutionary to the game like Pop (minutes management, pass-oriented game that's stolen from Europe/Suns/Kings) Chuck Daly (bench usage and tough nose defense), Red Auerbach (using coloured players, fast break using Russell as the center-piece), Jack Ramsay (Physical fitness), Larry Brown (incredible knowledge of the game) did. The only thing Jackson was known for was the triangle, and it was brought in by Tex Winter.

PJ's way was vastly different than Pop's way. I think Pop is the better strategist and also proven he could adapt to different styles ...so I have no issue with POP's place as a top 3 all-time coach.
But to be fair the Phil, not sure Pop could have manged Rodman, Artest as well as Phil. We will never know but I think a case can be made that Pjax was better than Pop at that ...

[ambchang]

PJ's way was vastly different than Pop's way. I think Pop is the better strategist and also proven he could adapt to different styles ...so I have no issue with POP's place as a top 3 all-time coach.
But to be fair the Phil, not sure Pop could have manged Rodman, Artest as well as Phil. We will never know but I think a case can be made that Pjax was better than Pop at that ...

Jackson was probably the best ego manager of all time, Daly was maybe the only equal in that regard.

Jackson adjusted to different styles, I know people talk about the triangle a lot, but you have to admit, and no trolling here, the 09/10 ten was an inside out team. You cannot seriously say the Lakers won the championships because of Kobe's offense, it was due to the crazy advantage they have with their massive and skilled frontline.

Then the Shaq Lakers were ran quite a bit differnetly from the 90s Bulls.

[Thread]

Jackson was probably the best ego manager of all time, Daly was maybe the only equal in that regard.

Jackson adjusted to different styles, I know people talk about the triangle a lot, but you have to admit, and no trolling here, the 09/10 ten was an inside out team. You cannot seriously say the Lakers won the championships because of Kobe's offense, it was due to the crazy advantage they have with their massive and skilled frontline.

Then the Shaq Lakers were ran quite a bit differnetly from the 90s Bulls.

Yeah, he managed their ego's right into the '04 shitter,,,Daddy's plane leaving for Miami shortly thereafter. We left God knows how many on the table because those two couldn't see the light & Jackson failed to force them. Why? Jackson is flawed just like the next asshole in the line. Confirmed twixt '10 & '11 after he whistled past a prone Perkins in '10 never imagining, not for one for fucking second that Cubes (or all the other watchful assholes in the line) wasn't layin' in the weeds that Perkins & Powe - Perkins & Wallace laid in---with Chandler & Nowitski. ~La dee dee da dee da~..."nobody noticed the pattern." Oh, no, nobody, Phil, so when Gasol got his hole busted wide open whom did Phil blame? Of course not himself, he blamed Pau. Then, THEN, THEN, then they wanted to trade him. LMAO!

Phil Jackson was good. But, he wasn't that good.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, he managed their ego's right into the '04 shitter,,,Daddy's plane leaving for Miami shortly thereafter. We left God knows how many on the table because those two couldn't see the light & Jackson failed to force them. Why? Jackson is flawed just like the next asshole in the line. Confirmed twixt '10 & '11 after he whistled past a prone Perkins in '10 never imagining, not for one for fucking second that Cubes (or all the other watchful assholes in the line) wasn't layin' in the weeds that Perkins & Powe - Perkins & Wallace laid in---with Chandler & Nowitski. ~La dee dee da dee da~..."nobody noticed the pattern." Oh, no, nobody, Phil, so when Gasol got his hole busted wide open whom did Phil blame? Of course not himself, he blamed Pau. Then, THEN, THEN, then they wanted to trade him. LMAO!

Phil Jackson was good. But, he wasn't that good.

Some solid points Thread, can't disagree ...

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, he managed their ego's right into the '04 shitter,,,Daddy's plane leaving for Miami shortly thereafter. We left God knows how many on the table because those two couldn't see the light & Jackson failed to force them. Why? Jackson is flawed just like the next asshole in the line. Confirmed twixt '10 & '11 after he whistled past a prone Perkins in '10 never imagining, not for one for fucking second that Cubes (or all the other watchful assholes in the line) wasn't layin' in the weeds that Perkins & Powe - Perkins & Wallace laid in---with Chandler & Nowitski. ~La dee dee da dee da~..."nobody noticed the pattern." Oh, no, nobody, Phil, so when Gasol got his hole busted wide open whom did Phil blame? Of course not himself, he blamed Pau. Then, THEN, THEN, then they wanted to trade him. LMAO!

Phil Jackson was good. But, he wasn't that good.

Some solid points Thread, can't disagree ...

[UZER]

Phil can't even get his team to the playoffs in the lousy east, so he attacks the game instead.

Classic Phil.

[Killakobe81]

Jackson was probably the best ego manager of all time, Daly was maybe the only equal in that regard.

Jackson adjusted to different styles, I know people talk about the triangle a lot, but you have to admit, and no trolling here, the 09/10 ten was an inside out team. You cannot seriously say the Lakers won the championships because of Kobe's offense, it was due to the crazy advantage they have with their massive and skilled frontline.

Then the Shaq Lakers were ran quite a bit differnetly from the 90s Bulls.

I wouldnt say they won it because of either or it was a byproduct of both. Pau did some of his best work for us out the high post getting Bynum and Kobe easy looks. Lamar's versatility (much like Horry's before him) was also key as well as Fisher's leadership Ariza and later MWP's defense and PJ's coaching. Not sure what is your obsession even if not trolling to place all the credit on the Laker's frontline I wouldnt place it all on Kobe either. I dont think the 2009-2010 Lakers were even all that great a team definitely one of the weaker repeat champs ... but Kobe and PJ will always get the lion share of the credit no matter how much you bitch on here otherwise or make up shit like big man dependent but it truly was a team effort ...

[RsxPiimp]

the Lakers won the championships due to the crazy advantage they have with their massive frontline

Meh, you're making it sound like it was truly a massive frontline. Bynum wasn't very reliable in those runs. It was really Pau operating down low for the most part.

[hater]

He moves to another city 1/2 time he loses in the playoffs tbqh

[ambchang]

Yeah, he managed their ego's right into the '04 shitter,,,Daddy's plane leaving for Miami shortly thereafter. We left God knows how many on the table because those two couldn't see the light & Jackson failed to force them. Why? Jackson is flawed just like the next asshole in the line. Confirmed twixt '10 & '11 after he whistled past a prone Perkins in '10 never imagining, not for one for fucking second that Cubes (or all the other watchful assholes in the line) wasn't layin' in the weeds that Perkins & Powe - Perkins & Wallace laid in---with Chandler & Nowitski. ~La dee dee da dee da~..."nobody noticed the pattern." Oh, no, nobody, Phil, so when Gasol got his hole busted wide open whom did Phil blame? Of course not himself, he blamed Pau. Then, THEN, THEN, then they wanted to trade him. LMAO!

Phil Jackson was good. But, he wasn't that good.

That's more about Shaq and Kobe than Phil.

Phil managed Rodman, Artest, and Jordan. Two of them are certified insane, and the third one a psychopath if there ever was one.

Shaq was childish, Kobe was ambitious, and it clashed. The most difficult part about the Shaq-Kobe feud was that both sides are right, and both sides are wrong.

Who do you have as a better ego-manager than Phil though?

[ambchang]

I wouldnt say they won it because of either or it was a byproduct of both. Pau did some of his best work for us out the high post getting Bynum and Kobe easy looks. Lamar's versatility (much like Horry's before him) was also key as well as Fisher's leadership Ariza and later MWP's defense and PJ's coaching. Not sure what is your obsession even if not trolling to place all the credit on the Laker's frontline I wouldnt place it all on Kobe either. I dont think the 2009-2010 Lakers were even all that great a team definitely one of the weaker repeat champs ... but Kobe and PJ will always get the lion share of the credit no matter how much you bitch on here otherwise or make up shit like big man dependent but it truly was a team effort ...

As long as you realized that MVPau and the frontline was what drove the Lakers offense. It's very frustrating seeing those people mouth off about how Kobe carried the Lakers to 5 championships, especially that b2b when he really deserve that big of a piece of the pie.

[ambchang]

Meh, you're making it sound like it was truly a massive frontline. Bynum wasn't very reliable in those runs. It was really Pau operating down low for the most part.

And he was great. MVPau's ability to work the post, pass, and draw attention in the post allowed the Lakers to really draw in the defense and let them score.

Look, in 2010, MVPau's Orating was 120 and 126 in the playoffs, Bynum came in second at 117 and 119, Vujicic actually came in third before Kobe made it, and it was mostly because of his ability to nail the outside shot and the fact that he plays most of his minutes with MVPau and Kobe anyways.

The story is similar in 09 with Odom and Fisher instead of Bynum and Sasha.

[Killakobe81]

As long as you realized that MVPau and the frontline was what drove the Lakers offense. It's very frustrating seeing those people mouth off about how Kobe carried the Lakers to 5 championships, especially that b2b when he really deserve that big of a piece of the pie.

No i didnt say that I said it was a team effort. Kobe was the star so he gets most of the credit ... you can pull whatever random stat out of your ass ...that's just the way it is ...but why does it frustrate you so much? WGAF? That was over 5 years ago you think some random stat is gonna make someone change their minds?

Get over it and yourself. We get it ... it was primarily MVPAu ... move on to a new topic.

[ambchang]

No i didnt say that I said it was a team effort. Kobe was the star so he gets most of the credit ... you can pull whatever random stat out of your ass ...that's just the way it is ...but why does it frustrate you so much? WGAF? That was over 5 years ago you think some random stat is gonna make someone change their minds?

Get over it and yourself. We get it ... it was primarily MVPAu ... move on to a new topic.

Of course it frustrates me as a fan of basketball that people do not understand the reasons for success. It's annoying.

Like how those programmers are always annoyed at Apple fanbois (I am one, sort of), or how I am annoyed at kids who think Lebron is the GOAT, or even in the conversation, or how I am annoyed that people think Kanye West is a good rapper.

Ignorance annoys me.

BTW, those are not just "some random stats". I agree those are not perfect, but they sure tells a whole lot about players, and more indicative than traditional stats. It's not the be-all-and-end-all, but when there are multiple stats pointing to the same thing, you have to at least look at them and ask yourself if your original stance is valid or not.

[Killakobe81]

Of course it frustrates me as a fan of basketball that people do not understand the reasons for success. It's annoying.

Like how those programmers are always annoyed at Apple fanbois (I am one, sort of), or how I am annoyed at kids who think Lebron is the GOAT, or even in the conversation, or how I am annoyed that people think Kanye West is a good rapper.

Ignorance annoys me.

BTW, those are not just "some random stats". I agree those are not perfect, but they sure tells a whole lot about players, and more indicative than traditional stats. It's not the be-all-and-end-all, but when there are multiple stats pointing to the same thing, you have to at least look at them and ask yourself if your original stance is valid or not.

Kanye is a good rapper LOL, not a top 5 GOAT level but compared to most of the modern losers he is good. and although not the GOAT Lebron was building a case he just failed ...

[Thread]

That's more about Shaq and Kobe than Phil.

Phil managed Rodman, Artest, and Jordan. Two of them are certified insane, and the third one a psychopath if there ever was one.

Shaq was childish, Kobe was ambitious, and it clashed. The most difficult part about the Shaq-Kobe feud was that both sides are right, and both sides are wrong.

Who do you have as a better ego-manager than Phil though?

That's a cop out. Jackson is canonized for stretching the two out on his couch and shrinking their gourds till they joined hands and ran off three-in-a-row. Great detente, never heard the end of it. What, he can't give 'em a refresher course when they once again threaten divorce? Phil got lazy, slovenly and turned loose of the wheel. I guess three-a-in-row will do that. That was his responsibility, his lookout. Let him own that failure. He earned it. & LF has to suffer the consequence. And it is a bitter one.

[ambchang]

Kanye is a good rapper LOL, not a top 5 GOAT level but compared to most of the modern losers he is good. and although not the GOAT Lebron was building a case he just failed ...

Kanye isn't a good rapper, he's just good compared to crap. There hasn't really been a good rapper in years.

Lebron shouldn't be in the same level has Jordan as most kids make it out to be. He's not in top level yet, and it was purely due to 11 vs. the Mavs. I don't hold 07 or this year against him. In fact, I thought he was phenomenal this year and just didn't have a strong enough cast to push through (his own fault). I am also more and more irked that he pulls these Larry Brown moves all the time, and hurting himself and the franchise. He thinks he knows more than he really does, and come out a dumbass.

[ambchang]

That's a cop out. Jackson is canonized for stretching the two out on his couch and shrinking their gourds till they joined hands and ran off three-in-a-row. Great detente, never heard the end of it. What, he can't give 'em a refresher course when they once again threaten divorce? Phil got lazy, slovenly and turned loose of the wheel. I guess three-a-in-row will do that. That was his responsibility, his lookout. Let him own that failure. He earned it. & LF has to suffer the consequence. And it is a bitter one.

Some couples can't be forced together with the best arbitrators, it happens. Kobe and Shaq, with their egoistic childish personalities are not meant to work together.

That said, Jackson owns the responsibility by driving them further apart to create this oneupsmanship between the two to make them play their best. It worked for a year (02, because even Kobe knew it was Shaqs team in 00 and 01), but then fell apart after that.

I don't know if you can call Jackson lazy, maybe just exhausted.

[Kool Bob Love]

Kanye isn't a good rapper,

Stick to basketball takes b.

[Killakobe81]

Stick to basketball takes b.

This. Ye is better than most of the clowns big right now ...the Drake's etc. Kendrick and Jcole some of the few worth a shit right now ...

[Thread]

Some couples can't be forced together with the best arbitrators, it happens. Kobe and Shaq, with their egoistic childish personalities are not meant to work together.

That said, Jackson owns the responsibility by driving them further apart to create this oneupsmanship between the two to make them play their best. It worked for a year (02, because even Kobe knew it was Shaqs team in 00 and 01), but then fell apart after that.

I don't know if you can call Jackson lazy, maybe just exhausted.

Yes, Jackson failed after he succeeded. At least here, he owns both.

[ambchang]

Stick to basketball takes b.


This. Ye is better than most of the clowns big right now ...the Drake's etc. Kendrick and Jcole some of the few worth a shit right now ...

You guys are just lowering the bar. Drake isn't even a rapper. Just horrible horrible stuff.

[Killakobe81]

You guys are just lowering the bar. Drake isn't even a rapper. Just horrible horrible stuff.

No Listen to get em high off the College Dropout, Touch the sky or diamonds from Late Registration, Champion from the third album almost all of Dark Twisted Fantasy ... even Black skin head off of Yeezus the guy has been one of the most prolific hip hop artists that actually doesnt do stripper music. He actually has intellect and lyrics that are deep ...

[baseline bum]

Dude who coached Jordan wants to bitch about players travelling? :lmao

[ambchang]

No Listen to get em high off the College Dropout, Touch the sky or diamonds from Late Registration, Champion from the third album almost all of Dark Twisted Fantasy ... even Black skin head off of Yeezus the guy has been one of the most prolific hip hop artists that actually doesnt do stripper music. He actually has intellect and lyrics that are deep ...

I mean Drake had horrible stuff.

Kanye West is meh. He had a few good albums at the beginning, but the latest stuff is just cashing in on his old stuff. Nothing revolutionary. Compare him to the old school guys like Rakim, Jay-Z, 2Pac, Big, Nas, Snoop, Outcast, and even Eminem, and West immediately gets exposed.

[Killakobe81]

I mean Drake had horrible stuff.

Kanye West is meh. He had a few good albums at the beginning, but the latest stuff is just cashing in on his old stuff. Nothing revolutionary. Compare him to the old school guys like Rakim, Jay-Z, 2Pac, Big, Nas, Snoop, Outcast, and even Eminem, and West immediately gets exposed.

Jay is a nice dude with skills but how many songs had a real message? He has so many #1 hits and crossover success and I really enjoy the Black Album and all the Blueprints and of course Reasonable Doubt but he liek Snoop and Big were great storytellers but the stories lack soul. Now Outkast especially andre 3000, Nas and Em and Pac are on a different level because they did crossover but they have songs that can tell stories but also stir your spirit.

Jay to me is like MJ ...one of the best to ever do it but so many copied his style and focused on punch lines metaphors, money hoes and clothes that rap became to much about style and lacked substance even if Jay did have so much more to offer people focused on the wrong stuff (like only on MJ's dunks) when both had much more to offer. You can blame the state of the NBA post MJ on Jordan indirectly and state of hip-hop on Jay.

I agree early Kanye is better but he is still one of the best Twisted dark is up there for me with his best work. But I wont lie some of my favorite Ye stuff is collabos so I would rate him below Andre, Em, Nas, Qtip, Rakim and Jay ...not that they did not collabo ...but he also gets some bonus points for his production