Drafted a PG in a league where PGs have the least impact.

[midnightpulp]

And don't cite Stephen Curry as an example of bucking the "PGs don't lead teams to titles" trend. First of all, Curry is a once-in-a-lifetime talent. And 2nd of all, the Warriors have the best perimeter defense in the league, featuring Green, Iggy, and Thompson.

Sure, Buss and Co. are spinning this is as if they're building in anticipation of signing Love or Aldridge, but Love has stated that he has no desire to go to LA and wants to win a title over being the man on a bad team. The Cavs will rule the East for the next 3 years, so there's no reason for him to bolt to LA. And LMA would be an awful fit on the Lakers. They have no defensive center nor any wing defenders to cover for LMA's defensive deficiencies. Portland had at least Lopez, Batum, and Matthews.

Just a terrible, terrible pick by the Lakers. You only draft PGs when it's your weakest position (I'd actually take Russell over the shitstain that is Tony Parker). The Lakers are in desperate need of a big and/or wing depth, yet they do something that makes absolutely no sense.

After all this, all the tanking and cap nursing, Ed Davis will probably be the Lakers best player next season once again :lmao

[Kool Bob Love]

Lakers fans worried. Mid is back!:lmao

[RsxPiimp]

Draft the BPA. Not a fan of Russell but I definitely didn't want Okafor. Poor FT shooter, so-so on defense and a questionable work ethic, all red flags for a big man. D-Russ is the safest pick for the Lakers.

[LkrFan]

:lol

[Buddy Mignon]

And don't cite Stephen Curry as an example of bucking the "PGs don't lead teams to titles" trend. First of all, Curry is a once-in-a-lifetime talent. And 2nd of all, the Warriors have the best perimeter defense in the league, featuring Green, Iggy, and Thompson.

Sure, Buss and Co. are spinning this is as if they're building in anticipation of signing Love or Aldridge, but Love has stated that he has no desire to go to LA and wants to win a title over being the man on a bad team. The Cavs will rule the East for the next 3 years, so there's no reason for him to bolt to LA. And LMA would be an awful fit on the Lakers. They have no defensive center nor any wing defenders to cover for LMA's defensive deficiencies. Portland had at least Lopez, Batum, and Matthews.

Just a terrible, terrible pick by the Lakers. You only draft PGs when it's your weakest position (I'd actually take Russell over the shitstain that is Tony Parker). The Lakers are in desperate need of a big and/or wing depth, yet they do something that makes absolutely no sense.

After all this, all the tanking and cap nursing, Ed Davis will probably be the Lakers best player next season once again :lmao

Ed opted out.

[Buddy Mignon]

Draft the BPA. Not a fan of Russell but I definitely didn't want Okafor. Poor FT shooter, so-so on defense and a questionable work ethic, all red flags for a big man. D-Russ is the safest pick for the Lakers.

So we're playing safe now?

[midnightpulp]

Ed opted out.

Even funnier :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

Even funnier :lol

You better pray the kid tanks. Because I got Clarkson becoming an allstar within two seasons.

[RsxPiimp]

So we're playing safe now?
Dwight Howard
Shaq

I ain't touching another guy whose going to be a liability in the 4th because he can't make a fucking free throw. Unlike the other 2, Okafor isn't an elite athlete.

[midnightpulp]

You better pray the kid tanks. Because I got Clarkson becoming an allstar within two seasons.

What role is Clarkson gonna have now that his starting spot will taken by Russell?

[RsxPiimp]

What role is Clarkson gonna have now that his starting spot will taken by Russell?

SG

[Koolaid_Man]

Hey dipshit Curry is NOT a once in a lifetime player he's just a good shooter and ball handler...it's now a point guards league I dare you to show me statistically why its not...you jealous mad we made the right decision that will spawn more good decisions...suck it mid :lol

[LkrFan]

I haven't seen mid mad like this since 6 tbh. Damn. :lol

[Infinite_limit]

"He was good in 3 on 3 drills"

[The Gemini Method]

Curry was one ankle tweak away from being sucked by Klay Thompson. Hardly once in a lifetime event. He has ascended but let's not get carried the fuck away here.

[RsxPiimp]

Also, If there's one thing Scott is good at other than tanking, it's making rookie PG's transition to the pros easier. Irving, CP3 and Clarkson all had successful rookie seasons under Scott. Russell shouldn't be an exception. He could probably win ROY.

[Mitch]

Midst grasping at straws, clinging on to dear life.

[Thread]

I haven't seen mid mad like this since 6 tbh. Damn.

GD, he was fuckin' lit. :lol He didn't know what to do. The poor thing.

[da_suns_fan]

I dont think PGs have "the least impact" but they are the easiest position to fill (due to the fact that they physically represent a much larger percentage of the human population).

The Suns had four different good PGs on their roster this year.

[Killakobe81]

Mid is bitchmade so much fear in his post

[Koolaid_Man]

The Suns had four different good PGs on their roster this year.

:lol Hey dipshit.....that's becuz they're the Suns...

[Koolaid_Man]

Mid is bitchmade so much fear in his post


He knows we made the right decision but he'll never admit it....it's killing him inside

[CitizenDwayne]

Hey dipshit Curry is NOT a once in a lifetime player

:lmao

[Buddy Mignon]

What role is Clarkson gonna have now that his starting spot will taken by Russell?

Obviously you've never seen either of these guys play. Clarkson is a natural combo guard much like Westbrook, and Russ is a natural PG, with the size and shooting touch of a two guard. I'm extremely happy with our 1,2, and 3 positions. We'll get to see all three of them in summer league, too.

[LkrFan]

Obviously you've never seen either of these guys play. Clarkson is a natural combo guard much like Westbrook, and Russ is a natural PG, with the size and shooting touch of a two guard. I'm extremely happy with our 1,2, and 3 positions. We'll get to see all three of them in summer league, too.

When does it start?

[LkrFan]

Mid is bitchmade so much fear in his post

:lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Also, If there's one thing Scott is good at other than tanking, it's making rookie PG's transition to the pros easier. Irving, CP3 and Clarkson all had successful rookie seasons under Scott. Russell shouldn't be an exception. He could probably win ROY.


This tbh....Michael D Angelo is fearless tbh...like Byron said Kobe is gonna LOVE him....Byron knows.,trust me they really vetted this pick...i heard Okafer came in and looked aweful....teams around the league said Russell should have went first....Minny drafted on need..I understand "....but its a PG league...

[Koolaid_Man]

Obviously you've never seen either of these guys play. Clarkson is a natural combo guard much like Westbrook, and Russ is a natural PG, with the size and shooting touch of a two guard. I'm extremely happy with our 1,2, and 3 positions. We'll get to see all three of them in summer league, too.


We have a hell of a backcourt with them two....awesome...did you see Byron grinning from ear to ear When discussing how they will play together

[Koolaid_Man]

Both of them play with chips on their shoulders....they're serious

[IronMexican]

I dig the pick :tu I don't think okafor will ever be anything special. At least with Russell, there's some small hope.

[Mugen]

Also drafted an openly huge Clipper fan.

[midnightpulp]

:lol You guys (Laker fans) are fucking retarded if you think "I'm mad."

Only 1 team led by a PG has won the title in the past 25 years, and as good as Curry is, he's supplemented by a great perimeter defense and plays in a modern system (Byron Scott is still stuck in the 90's). And it's funny how Lakers fans were talking up Okafor as the next Tim Duncan and the most polished big of the decade to come out of college and now all of sudden Russell was the "smart" decision.

Yeah, it's likely Russell was drafted in anticipation of trying to sign a big, but Love (no chance he's coming) and/or LMA would be terrible fits.

Since there was no top tier wing in this draft, the "smart" thing to do is draft a center, which is the Lakers weakest position outside of SF/SG. Bigs are a rarer commodity than PGs and are always the safer and "smarter" choice.

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol You guys (Laker fans) are fucking retarded if you think "I'm mad."

Only 1 team led by a PG has won the title in the past 25 years, and as good as Curry is, he's supplemented by a great perimeter defense and plays in a modern system (Byron Scott is still stuck in the 90's). And it's funny how Lakers fans were talking up Okafor as the next Tim Duncan and the most polished big of the decade to come out of college and now all of sudden Russell was the "smart" decision.

Yeah, it's likely Russell was drafted in anticipation of trying to sign a big, but Love (no chance he's coming) and/or LMA would be terrible fits.

Since there was no top tier wing in this draft, the "smart" thing to do is draft a center, which is the Lakers weakest position outside of SF/SG. Bigs are a rarer commodity than PGs and are always the safer and "smarter" choice.

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.


Any Laker fan here can send your dumbass a screen shot of the PM where I told them I was gonna troll Spurfan dumbass with the Okafer bullshit....fact is you got played by me dawg... :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Any Laker fan here can send your dumbass a screen shot of the PM where I told them I was gonna troll Spurfan dumbass with the Okafer bullshit....fact is you got played by me dawg... :lmao

It wasn't just you. Lakers fans from here to LG were head over heels for Okafor.

Drafting a PG at number 2 :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

The funny thing is spurfag been bitching since the first round because their HOF PG wasn't up to the task of carrying Jims sorry ass again. You need a good PG to win in the west. We have two.

[midnightpulp]

Obviously you've never seen either of these guys play. Clarkson is a natural combo guard much like Westbrook, and Russ is a natural PG, with the size and shooting touch of a two guard. I'm extremely happy with our 1,2, and 3 positions. We'll get to see all three of them in summer league, too.

You're right. But my implication was how do you expect Clarkson to move to the starting 2 spot when Kirby is going to hang around for another 3 years.

And Buss will pay that shithead. The merch sales to all the stupid beaners is too hard to pass up.

[Buddy Mignon]

:lol You guys (Laker fans) are fucking retarded if you think "I'm mad."

Only 1 team led by a PG has won the title in the past 25 years, and as good as Curry is, he's supplemented by a great perimeter defense and plays in a modern system (Byron Scott is still stuck in the 90's). And it's funny how Lakers fans were talking up Okafor as the next Tim Duncan and the most polished big of the decade to come out of college and now all of sudden Russell was the "smart" decision.

Yeah, it's likely Russell was drafted in anticipation of trying to sign a big, but Love (no chance he's coming) and/or LMA would be terrible fits.

Since there was no top tier wing in this draft, the "smart" thing to do is draft a center, which is the Lakers weakest position outside of SF/SG. Bigs are a rarer commodity than PGs and are always the safer and "smarter" choice.

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.

Parker has 4

[Clipper Nation]

It wasn't just you. Lakers fans from here to LG were head over heels for Okafor.

Drafting a PG at number 2 :lol

And Okafor is nothing special either. Soft, no defense, turnover machine, chokes at the free throw line. Lakers were fucked either way :lol

[Mitch]

It wasn't just you. Lakers fans from here to LG were head over heels for Okafor.

Drafting a PG at number 2 :lol

Like the rest of your bets this year, you're having minimal to zero returns. Stick to talking about Kobe

[RsxPiimp]

Mid avoiding the fact Okafor is a non defensive center, who shoots a paltry 50% on the line with a questionable work ethic.

[midnightpulp]

The funny thing is spurfag been bitching since the first round because their HOF PG wasn't up to the task of carrying Jims sorry ass again. You need a good PG to win in the west. We have two.

What?

The last 11 champions from the West had average PGs.

Derek Fisher. Average. Way below average defensively, even in his prime.
Tony Parker. Benched for Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr. Typically had a net negative floor impact during all the Spurs playoff runs. And he was fuckin' terrible during last year's run.
A 40 year old Jason Kidd. Average.

Meanwhile, the top two PGs of their generation (Nash and Chris Paul) have never sniffed a Western Conference title.

[midnightpulp]

And Okafor is nothing special either. Soft, no defense, turnover machine, chokes at the free throw line. Lakers were fucked either way :lol

I wasn't high on him, either. This draft was super weak. But if there's a good big in the draft, you should usually take the gamble.

[midnightpulp]

Like the rest of your bets this year, you're having minimal to zero returns. Stick to talking about Kobe

No. I'm swimming in returns. Drafting a fucking PG with the number 2 pick :lmao

Keep spinning it like it's "smart," though.

[Mitch]

No. I'm swimming in returns. Drafting a fucking PG with the number 2 pick :lmao

Keep spinning it like it's "smart," though.

Again, delusion has clouded your head.

[midnightpulp]

Again, delusion has clouded your head.

I'm not the one deluded here. History and statistics (the impact of PGs) isn't on your side.

Keep selling Russell to yourself, by all means. There's not much to celebrate in Lakerland these days.

[Koolaid_Man]

Somebody please post my PM where I said I'd fuck with Mid on this Okafer bullshit...

[LkrFan]

mid maaaaaaaaad as fuck! Damn. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Somebody please post my PM where I said I'd fuck with Mid on this Okafer bullshit...

I don't care about your opinion on Okafor. Every Lakerfan (aside from RSXPimp) on the net was high on him, and Local media here were creaming themselves.

[midnightpulp]

mid maaaaaaaaad as fuck! Damn. :lol

DeAngelo Russell :lmao

[LkrFan]

No. I'm swimming in returns. Drafting a fucking PG with the number 2 pick :lmao

Keep spinning it like it's "smart," though.

Will Russell be a bust? Put that shit on record.

[LkrFan]

DeAngelo Russell :lmao
He sucks. Might as well cancel the season, right mid?

[Koolaid_Man]

DeAngelo Russell :lmao

45% fg shooter...48% on 2 pointers only...laugh at that

[Clipper Nation]

He sucks. Might as well cancel the season, right mid?
Nah, Lakers are back in the hunt. LOL NBA. :downspin:

[Mitch]

I'm not the one deluded here. History and statistics (the impact of PGs) isn't on your side.

Keep selling Russell to yourself, by all means. There's not much to celebrate in Lakerland these days.

I'm not selling anybody, you're the one trying to make something out of nothing and thinking it's gold. A good time to pull out a JHUTT, I guess... 'bout all you got right now.

[midnightpulp]

Will Russell be a bust? Put that shit on record.

No. He'll be a good player. You guys are missing the point. You don't build around PGs in today's game. Point guards are typically players you pursue AFTER you've filled out more important positions.

Look at the history of all the "great" PGs that have flamed out over the past decade. From Derrick Rose to Deron Williams to Chris Paul and more. And Tony Parker was injured and being sat out for major minutes during last year's run. Curry is the only one to buck that trend, but he's supported by the deepest wing rotation in the league (their 6th man SF won the Finals MVP).

The Lakers have a 75 year old Kirby and Swaggy P and not much else at those positions. And their big rotation might be even worse.

Yeah, they're probably going after LMA, but if they whiff, then what?

[whitemamba]

Mid is one salty dude right now.

[Venti Quattro]

The Lakers are getting ready to pluck away a big.

LaMarcus, Demarcus, D'Angelo, Kobe and Wes Johnson

[midnightpulp]

The Lakers are getting ready to pluck away a big.

LaMarcus, Demarcus, D'Angelo, Kobe and Wes Johnson

They don't have the pieces to trade for DMC now that they drafted a PG. And I doubt Vlade moves him. LMA is about a 10% possibility. Spurs are huge frontrunners in the LMA sweepstakes, but I ain't holding my breath and expect the worst, since the Spurs always strike out on free-agency.

[313]

:lol You guys (Laker fans) are fucking retarded if you think "I'm mad."

Only 1 team led by a PG has won the title in the past 25 years, and as good as Curry is, he's supplemented by a great perimeter defense and plays in a modern system (Byron Scott is still stuck in the 90's). And it's funny how Lakers fans were talking up Okafor as the next Tim Duncan and the most polished big of the decade to come out of college and now all of sudden Russell was the "smart" decision.

Yeah, it's likely Russell was drafted in anticipation of trying to sign a big, but Love (no chance he's coming) and/or LMA would be terrible fits.

Since there was no top tier wing in this draft, the "smart" thing to do is draft a center, which is the Lakers weakest position outside of SF/SG. Bigs are a rarer commodity than PGs and are always the safer and "smarter" choice.

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.tbh It's a pretty big risk drafting a big in the top 5 nowadays.

[jeebus]

I haven't seen laker fan on the defensive this bad since the "now THIS is going to be fun"/the begging fiasco. Is this the bottom for them? Got no place to go but up.

[Buddy Mignon]

You're right. But my implication was how do you expect Clarkson to move to the starting 2 spot when Kirby is going to hang around for another 3 years.

And Buss will pay that shithead. The merch sales to all the stupid beaners is too hard to pass up.

The drafting of Russ signifies the retirement of Kobe. No room for him to grow as a natural PG with Kobe around. And I truly want to see Randle running with Russ and Clarkson. We're heading in the right direction.

[Splits]

^kinda funny watching Kobestan wanting him to retire to prevent further humiliation to his legacy while not a single Spursfan wants Duncan to go.

[Kool Bob Love]

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.

Mid. Sig worthy.

[Clipper Nation]

^kinda funny watching Kobestan wanting him to retire to prevent further humiliation to his legacy while not a single Spursfan wants Duncan to go.

Porker and his stans secretly want Duncan to go... that means even more shots for the French black hole.

[Mikeanaro]

^kinda funny watching Kobestan wanting him to retire to prevent further humiliation to his legacy while not a single Spursfan wants Duncan to go.
Thats true, even the most retarded fan doesnt want him to go.

[spurraider21]

You better pray the kid tanks. Because I got Clarkson becoming an allstar within two seasons.
of course you do. you're a delusional homer faggot

[Bynumite]

After bandwagoning and cursing the spurs, clippers, hawks, Pau, Howard, Ariza and Lebron. Hoping the Mid curse is alive and strong and Russell proves him wrong.

[LkrFan]

No. He'll be a good player. You guys are missing the point. You don't build around PGs in today's game. Point guards are typically players you pursue AFTER you've filled out more important positions.

Look at the history of all the "great" PGs that have flamed out over the past decade. From Derrick Rose to Deron Williams to Chris Paul and more. And Tony Parker was injured and being sat out for major minutes during last year's run. Curry is the only one to buck that trend, but he's supported by the deepest wing rotation in the league (their 6th man SF won the Finals MVP).

The Lakers have a 75 year old Kirby and Swaggy P and not much else at those positions. And their big rotation might be even worse.

Yeah, they're probably going after LMA, but if they whiff, then what?We drafted the purest basketball player in the draft. If the money is right, I foresee free agents coming to the Lakers to play with this kid.

We also got a summer league commitment from Robert Upshaw.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Pix5kDbF-2rLfAWUjLPqVL1EGLY=/529x215:6423x4144/2400x1600/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46617072/usa-today-8205124.0.jpg

Recap: we have D'Russell and Upshaw. Upshaw will make the team. Before his "issues" he was considered a 1st rounder. D'Russell + Upshaw > drafting Okafor...and these two "fit" with Randle and Clarkson.

Million dollar question: will the Lakers develop these young players? I hope so.

[Koolaid_Man]

^kinda funny watching Kobestan wanting him to retire to prevent further humiliation to his legacy while not a single Spursfan wants Duncan to go.

I personally want Kobe to plAy another 3 yrs. Get this contract off the books and then get some of the new TV money

[benefactor]

Mid vs Laker fan in this thread:

https://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/hakeem-spin-cycle.gif

[djohn2oo8]

It won't matter because of two things. They don't have a reliable big. And Kobe. No three things. Byron Scott too. What system does he run besides the Kobe system?

[Thread]

I personally want Kobe to plAy another 3 yrs.

Absolutely.

[Killakobe81]

:lol You guys (Laker fans) are fucking retarded if you think "I'm mad."

Only 1 team led by a PG has won the title in the past 25 years, and as good as Curry is, he's supplemented by a great perimeter defense and plays in a modern system (Byron Scott is still stuck in the 90's). And it's funny how Lakers fans were talking up Okafor as the next Tim Duncan and the most polished big of the decade to come out of college and now all of sudden Russell was the "smart" decision.

Yeah, it's likely Russell was drafted in anticipation of trying to sign a big, but Love (no chance he's coming) and/or LMA would be terrible fits.

Since there was no top tier wing in this draft, the "smart" thing to do is draft a center, which is the Lakers weakest position outside of SF/SG. Bigs are a rarer commodity than PGs and are always the safer and "smarter" choice.

The Lakers fucked up. End of story.

the thing was I predicted this type of post from you ... but after we made our pick .... I took my kids to the pool so I didn't bother to post it.

If we took Oakafor Mid would have another long diatribe style post about how Oakafor cant play defense, cant hit FT's and is a retarded man's Oakafor.

If you weren't worried or mad could have just said: Bust. Cant play defense wont ever shoot like Steph was shut down by Arizona in the tourney. But to ramble on like that?

Yep, you mad.

[Killakobe81]

It won't matter because of two things. They don't have a reliable big. And Kobe. No three things. Byron Scott too. What system does he run besides the Kobe system?

Scott runs the Princeton and Kidd and Paul have had great seasons with him. Not sold on byron but that is all fact. Damn people have short memories around here ...

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Killa mad as fuck about those truthbombs

[jeebus]

I don't think the forum's laker fan comes back from this meltdown in this thread. this is so embarrassing

[Thread]

I don't think the forum's laker fan comes back from this meltdown in this thread. this is so embarrassing

If you can come back from a 1st 5th, Amy & havin' a $25 million purse lifted we can come back from this.

[Killakobe81]

:lol Killa mad as fuck about those truthbombs

How am I mad? I didnt create a thread or write a 500 word essay rebuttal ...

And how many cocks must you suck on here? everyone that agrees with your shitty troll takes?

[djohn2oo8]

Scott runs the Princeton and Kidd and Paul have had great seasons with him. Not sold on byron but that is all fact. Damn people have short memories around here ...

Paul and Kidd carried his ass. What has he done since then?

[Clipper Nation]

Scott runs the Princeton and Kidd and Paul have had great seasons with him. Not sold on byron but that is all fact. Damn people have short memories around here ...
Kidd told reporters that T.J. could have coached a better Finals than Scott in '03 :lol

[Sportcamper]

midnightpulp- Great basketball take as always...:tu

Mitch Kupchak, Jim Buss and more importantly Chaz the Bartender originally wanted Jahlil Okafor…After several work outs including 3 on 3 scrimmages Kupchak along with Byron were more impressed with D'Angelo Russell…19-year-old Russell is widely thought to have the highest potential in this draft…Russell in the Lakers' back court alongside Jordan Clarkson will be interesting…

I don't understand Spurs fans disdain for Tony Parker...

[Killakobe81]

midnightpulp- Great basketball take as always...:tu

Mitch Kupchak, Jim Buss and more importantly Chaz the Bartender originally wanted Jahlil Okafor…After several work outs including 3 on 3 scrimmages Kupchak along with Byron were more impressed with D'Angelo Russell…19-year-old Russell is widely thought to have the highest potential in this draft…Russell in the Lakers' back court alongside Jordan Clarkson will be interesting…

I don't understand Spurs fans disdain for Tony Parker...

neither do I ... they say we didn't appreciate Pau ...Parker gets it worse on here.

[spurraider21]

neither do I ... they say we didn't appreciate Pau ...Parker gets it worse on here.
pau led the lakers in win shares during both their chips... parker has performed poorly on the big stages for us except against boobie gibson

[Arcadian]

:lol What a terrible, awful, shitfest of a draft, as expected. Did not watch.

:lol Laker fans putting their hope into such a shitty draft...

[Mori Chu]

As if a new young PG could save a Lakers team where Kobe is going to demand the ball 98% of the time.

[Franklin]

The Lakers ain't making him their franchise player anyway. Their real target is on 2016 summer when Kobe's contract comes off the book, so they'll have enough cap space to land two big name FA's while picking several more wonderkids straight out of the draft pool. In other words, they're gonna tank another season in 2015-2016, but wait... ain't their 2016 first rounder owed to Phoenix already? It's top 3 protected though, the Lakers better hope they won't drop down to 4th or lower tbh.

[Infinite_limit]

Could have been


Kobe - Randle - Okafor

[Buddy Mignon]

When does it start?

Summer league starts July 4th.

[Killakobe81]

The Lakers ain't making him their franchise player anyway. Their real target is on 2016 summer when Kobe's contract comes off the book, so they'll have enough cap space to land two big name FA's while picking several more wonderkids straight out of the draft pool. In other words, they're gonna tank another season in 2015-2016, but wait... ain't their 2016 first rounder owed to Phoenix already? It's top 3 protected though, the Lakers better hope they won't drop down to 4th or lower tbh.

Philly has our pick not PHX they traded it for ... I dont recall.

[Mitch]

Could have been


Kobe - Randle - Okafor

Now it could be...

Clarkson - Russel - Cousins

[HI-FI]

pau led the lakers in win shares during both their chips... parker has performed poorly on the big stages for us except against boobie gibson
This. Shit ain't rocket science.

[Franklin]

Lakers don't have a first rounder for 2016 anyway (unless the pick ends up top 3, of course).

[djohn2oo8]

:lol What a terrible, awful, shitfest of a draft, as expected. Did not watch.

:lol Laker fans putting their hope into such a shifty draft...

Kobe will still be chucking 20 plus shots per game. They won't be a contender til he retires.

[~O~]

if Aldrige leaves, that'll leave an open spot for the Lakers. HOWEVER....They'll have to fight the Thunder and the Pelicans for it.

[~O~]

Hmm..well now that I think about it, the THunder are going to be competitive with a healthy Kevin Durant.

[midnightpulp]

the thing was I predicted this type of post from you ... but after we made our pick .... I took my kids to the pool so I didn't bother to post it.

If we took Oakafor Mid would have another long diatribe style post about how Oakafor cant play defense, cant hit FT's and is a retarded man's Oakafor.

If you weren't worried or mad could have just said: Bust. Cant play defense wont ever shoot like Steph was shut down by Arizona in the tourney. But to ramble on like that?

Yep, you mad.
'
He won't be a bust. He'll be solid player, perhaps a poor man's Westbrook. As I told Lkrfan eariler, it's not a point guard's league and you don't build around them in the modern game. PGs are "over the hump" players, meaning they're the type of player you pursue after you've solidified the more important positions. Only one team (the Warriors) since the Bad Boy Pistons to win a title has featured an All Star/All NBA point guard on the roster. Yeah, Parker was an "all star" in 07, but the truth about him is that he was a net negative player in 3 of the 4 Spurs title runs, and when the offense moved to being centered on him, the results were disastrous.

I wouldn't have trolled about Okafor. It was the logical pick. I'm not high on him or anything, but if there's a good big in the draft, you should usually take him. 7 footers will always be a hot commodity and you can move them for good value if they don't work out for your team, even if their production is sub-par. If Russell winds up being a bust, they Lakers can't use him as any kind of asset. And if he winds up posting great numbers, then they're likely to overvalue him, giving him a big contract, meaning less cash to sign wings and bigs.

My feeling is that, in the modern game, the PG should usually be the 4th/5th best player on the floor (there's exceptions: Curry). I'm not suggesting you can get away with playing scrubs, your PG should still be solid, just not part of the "core." Someone will probably mention Parker again, but advanced stats have demonstrated that he was typically the 4th or 5th least impactful player of the starting lineup/core group in his prime. Duncan, Manu, and Bowen all affected the game more.

[Thread]

I wouldn't have trolled about Okafor.

I'll just bet you wouldn't have.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if a pg has less impact

then why is enrique still on the spurs roster for a clown who coatrides t o wins, but when elimination on the line his nowhere to be seen...

seems like everyone on the spurs is tradeable, except for this clown

[Thread]

if a pg has less impact

then why is enrique still on the spurs roster for a clown who coatrides t o wins, but when elimination on the line his nowhere to be seen...

seems like everyone on the spurs is tradeable, except for this clown

Though without said clown you'd be light 4.

[Stabula]

:lol Laker fans hoping with all their heart that a PG can save their broken franchise that has literally been the laughing stock of the league since the Spurs swept them in the first round

[Thread]

:lol Laker fans hoping with all their heart that a PG can save their broken franchise that has literally been the laughing stock of the league since the Spurs swept them in the first round

You get your shit sold, Amy outs Tim, you lose your 1st 5th, Tim gets joint custody of his proxy's kids, Tim loses $25 million and the Clippers tear you a brand new one. And aside from some old fuck in Phoenix nobody notices.

Just shows to go ya.

[Mitch]

if a pg has less impact

then why is enrique still on the spurs roster for a clown who coatrides t o wins, but when elimination on the line his nowhere to be seen...

seems like everyone on the spurs is tradeable, except for this clown

Pop believes he's the key to their success.

[Silver&Black]

You get your shit sold, Amy outs Tim, you lose your 1st 5th, Tim gets joint custody of his proxy's kids, Tim loses $25 million and the Clippers tear you a brand new one. And aside from some old fuck in Phoenix nobody notices.

Just shows to go ya.

It could be worse....

21-61

[Thread]

It could be worse....

21-61

Giving back an NBA Title is the worst.

[Silver&Black]

Giving back an NBA Title is the worst.

21-61 > Making it to and losing a Game 7 of the NBA Finals ????

You'll have to explain that one to me...

[Clipper Nation]

Giving back an NBA Title is the worst.
& your Bryant has done it twice.

[Thread]

21-61 > Making it to and losing a Game 7 of the NBA Finals ????

You'll have to explain that one to me...

They were selling your shit is explanation enough.

[Thread]

& your Bryant has done it twice.

They were selling your shit.

[Silver&Black]

They were selling your shit is explanation enough.

And I'll have to live with that. (God knows you won't let me/us forget it) I've come to peace with that Demon Cubby, but I'll take another bite of that shit sammich. We blew it...one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA history.

Now let's talk about this 21-61.

[Clipper Nation]

They were selling your shit.
They were hawking your merchandise. Then, Bryant thought he was a big shot. Nuh, uh.

[Thread]

And I'll have to live with that. (God knows you won't let me/us forget it) I've come to peace with that Demon Cubby, but I'll take another bite of that shit sammich. We blew it...one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA history.

Now let's talk about this 21-61.

What do you want me to say that I haven't said already? We've disgraced ourselves from the FO to the everyday game play. We've played musical chairs with the coaching when there was absolutely no need for it. We've made complete fools of ourselves and we've reaped what we've sown. The alarming part? We ain't hit bottom yet.

[Thread]

They were hawking your merchandise. Then, Bryant thought he was a big shot. Nuh, uh.

No. They were actually selling your '13 NBA Title gear on the television. What you're talking about for us is projection. What I'm talking about happened, it's reality.

[Silver&Black]

What do you want me to say that I haven't said already? We've disgraced ourselves from the FO to the everyday game play. We've played musical chairs with the coaching when there was absolutely no need for it. We've made complete fools of ourselves and we've reaped what we've sown. The alarming part? We ain't hit bottom yet.

I like this Cub a lot better...

Now if we could somehow get you to 75% Duncan is a queer, losing your 1st fifth, and Amy posts.....and 25% posts like the one you just made. You'd quickly become my favorite Lakers fan who posts here. At least you have the courage to admit the bad times....and that is a trait that is very rare 'round these parts.

[spurraider21]

We drafted the purest basketball player in the draft. If the money is right, I foresee free agents coming to the Lakers to play with this kid.

We also got a summer league commitment from Robert Upshaw.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Pix5kDbF-2rLfAWUjLPqVL1EGLY=/529x215:6423x4144/2400x1600/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46617072/usa-today-8205124.0.jpg

Recap: we have D'Russell and Upshaw. Upshaw will make the team. Before his "issues" he was considered a 1st rounder. D'Russell + Upshaw > drafting Okafor...and these two "fit" with Randle and Clarkson.

Million dollar question: will the Lakers develop these young players? I hope so.
great post

[140]

:lmao

[spurraider21]

to be fair russell turned out to be a much better pick than oak

[StrengthAndHonor]

“I foresee Free Agents coming to the Lakers to play with this kid”


Who would’ve thought the kid is a snitch:lol

[LkrFan]

great post

You chicken shit for this! :rollin :lmao :rollin

[spurraider21]

You chicken shit for this! :rollin :lmao :rollin
:lol

[Robz4000]

God damn, Fernando; the LkrFan curse strikes again.

[midnightpulp]

On a side note, I didn't foresee how PGs (or pseudo PGs, ex Harden) have become the most important position in the league (by far). 2015 was still about wings and bigs (to an extent).

[BD24]

On a side note, I didn't foresee how PGs (or pseudo PGs, ex Harden) have become the most important position in the league (by far). 2015 was still about wings and bigs (to an extent).
3 best players in the league are still wings tbh.

Harden isn't a pg in the typical sense, you kind of noted that anyway.

But the real reason I was going to post

Robert Upshaw :lol:lol

[Clipper Nation]

On a side note, I didn't foresee how PGs (or pseudo PGs, ex Harden) have become the most important position in the league (by far). 2015 was still about wings and bigs (to an extent).
It's still all about dynamic two-way wings, tbh. Traditional point guards are strictly for the regular season. The only exception to the rule might be Alphabrook if Presti ever gets serious about building a real team around him. And Curry, since even when he has his usual playoff disappearing acts, he's still carrying Durbeta by giving him wide open shots due to the gravity he creates.

[DAF86]

On a side note, I didn't foresee how PGs (or pseudo PGs, ex Harden) have become the most important position in the league (by far). 2015 was still about wings and bigs (to an extent).

This is the biggest misconception about today's NBA: that it is a PG's league. Not it isn't son. It is a wing's league.

[midnightpulp]

This is the biggest misconception about today's NBA: that it is a PG's league. Not it isn't son. It is a wing's league.

8 of the top 15 players per RPM are PGs (they are also the majority in every other advanced stat category you can think of). The really only successful "wing" player since the Warriors took hold of the league has been Lebron, and he plays more like a PG than anything else (Warriors aren't built around Durant, they're built around Curry. He is still the primary catalyst for that entire offense). PGs have become the most important position in the game because the pick-and-roll is the most dangerous offensive set in the game, and the pick-and-roll centers around ball handling and passing, two PG centric skills. Then add into that the ability to shoot from distance off the dribble (Curry, Harden, Lilliard, etc) for further impact. And you know who has been arguably Boston's most important player in their run following all the injuries? PG Terry Rozier. The primary wings on the Celtics are having less game impact than Aron Baynes, despite the decent per game stats.

[DAF86]

8 of the top 15 players per RPM are PGs (they are also the majority in every other advanced stat category you can think of). The really only successful "wing" player since the Warriors took hold of the league has been Lebron, and he plays more like a PG than anything else (Warriors aren't built around Durant, they're built around Curry. He is still the primary catalyst for that entire offense). PGs have become the most important position in the game because the pick-and-roll is the most dangerous offensive set in the game, and the pick-and-roll centers around ball handling and passing, two PG centric skills. Then add into that the ability to shoot from distance off the dribble (Curry, Harden, Lilliard, etc) for further impact. And you know who has been arguably Boston's most important player in their run following all the injuries? PG Terry Rozier. The primary wings on the Celtics are having less game impact than Aron Baynes, despite the decent per game stats.

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And fuck the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And fuck the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.

hate clowns who are oversized playing out of position like giannis, is there a reason why his playing pg?

[midnightpulp]

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. 4 of the best 5 players in the World are wings. And fuck the argument that Harden is a PG now. If Harden is a PG, then Lebron is a PG, just like Jordan and Pippen were co-PG's back in the days, and Manu has been the PG of the Spurs bench for the entirety of his career. Good wing players have always been the defacto PG's of their teams and always will be.

The truth is that the league is being dominated by guys that work as ball handlers on offense and have size to don't become liabilities on the other end.

Just make a top 10 list and you will see:

Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Cousins, Butler, etc.

The only midget in there is Curry, who also happens to be the biggest cheat code in basketball history in terms of shooting; and also happens to play a lot more off ball than a guy like Lebron James, for example.

After that, the only other "true" PG in the list is Westbrook, an athletic freak who plays much bigger than he is. So yeah, no, basketball isn't a PG's league. At least not in the traditional sense of the word.

Don't want to hear about Kawhi. He's irrelevant right now and has no playoff feathers in his cap in the post-Duncan era. In fact, it was a PG who sunk his 2015 run while he was getting outplayed by Matt Barnes. Lebron has always been a PG, since high school, even though he's built like a wing. He brings the ball up, he sets up and initiates the offense, he controls possession. Harden has also always played like a PG in the same vein. Just look at his time of possession stats. Same with Simmons. Size doesn't betray position. Durant? Has never not played alongside a top 3 PG in the league, and has never been the center of the offense for either team. The Warriors didn't need him, he needed the Warriors.

Lowry Is a true PG, Rozier is a true PG, Lillard is a true PG. Holiday has a higher RPM than Cousins.

[DAF86]

Don't want to hear about Kawhi. He's irrelevant right now and has no playoff feathers in his cap in the post-Duncan era. In fact, it was a PG who sunk his 2015 run while he was getting outplayed by Matt Barnes. Lebron has always been a PG, since high school, even though he's built like a wing. He brings the ball up, he sets up and initiates the offense, he controls possession. Harden has also always played like a PG in the same vein. Just look at his time of possession stats. Same with Simmons. Size doesn't betray position. Durant? Has never not played alongside a top 3 PG in the league, and has never been the center of the offense for either team. The Warriors didn't need him, he needed the Warriors.

Lowry Is a true PG, Rozier is a true PG, Lillard is a true PG. Holiday has a higher RPM than Cousins.

You missed the point completely. The "even though he's built like a wing" phrase is not irrelevant to the discussion. It's, in fact, my whole fucking point.

We can go back and forth on what constitutes a PG, for example: was Steve Kerr more of a PG than Jordan back in the 96/98 Bulls? If we contemplate on the fact that all Kerr did was stand on a corner waiting for catch and shoot opportunities, while Jordan was the one with the ball on his hands doing most of the playmaking, we have to say that Jordan (and Pippen) was the actual PG of that team, yet "officialy" Kerr was listed as a PG because he was a midget and Jordan was listed as a wing because he was 6'6''.

And that's what I'm talking about. Forget about who has the ball on his hands the most, the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team. So this semantics game of who is and who isn't a PG is useless. When I said "this was a wings league, not a PG's league" all I was refering to was to the fact that not being a midget is still a huge part of the game. Proven by the fact that, out of the ten best players in the league, only two are below 6'6''. Curry, who is the greatest shooter of all time by an infinite ass margin, and Westbrook, who is an athletic freak that plays way bigger than he is. It has to tell you something that, for as good and talented as they are, guys like Irving, Wall, Lillard and the such aren't really considered as players capable of leading teams to championships. That's a feat still reserved for players 6'6'' and above (with the exception of Curry).

[midnightpulp]

You missed the point completely. The "even though he's built like a wing" phrase is not irrelevant to the discussion. It's, in fact, my whole fucking point.

We can go back and forth on what constitutes a PG, for example: was Steve Kerr more of a PG than Jordan back in the 96/98 Bulls? If we contemplate on the fact that all Kerr did was stand on a corner waiting for catch and shoot opportunities, while Jordan was the one with the ball on his hands doing most of the playmaking, we have to say that Jordan (and Pippen) was the actual PG of that team, yet "officialy" Kerr was listed as a PG because he was a midget and Jordan was listed as a wing because he was 6'6''.

And that's what I'm talking about. Forget about who has the ball on his hands the most, the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team. So this semantics game of who is and who isn't a PG is useless. When I said "this was a wings league, not a PG's league" all I was refering to was to the fact that not being a midget is still a huge part of the game. Proven by the fact that, out of the ten best players in the league, only two are below 6'6''. Curry, who is the greatest shooter of all time by an infinite ass margin, and Westbrook, who is an athletic freak that plays way bigger than he is. It has to tell you something that, for as good and talented as they are, guys like Irving, Wall, Lillard and the such aren't really considered as players capable of leading teams to championships. That's a feat still reserved for players 6'6'' and above (with the exception of Curry).

Not really. A PG has a clear role. He is the main ball handler and set up man for the team. Wings are called "wings" because they play and set up on the flanks during any given possession. Yes, Steve Kerr was a wing. Furthermore, the Triangle was a system where ball handling wasn't that important and never needed a great ball handler to execute. It centered on quick ball and player movement within said "triangles" to create mismatches and create open shots. The Triangle is also outdated for the very reason that it isn't PG centric and is a post heavy offense. Positions listings have always been irrelevant to what the actual role of a player is on the team. "Wings" are players like James Worthy, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Durant, Larry Bird, Ray Allen, and yes, Jordan and Pippen (they might've been the primary ball handlers, but the offense they were playing in really was something any player with average ball handling skills could set up. Jordan nor Pippen would be able to run an offense that relied on passing from dribble-drive penetration, probing, or the pick-and-roll).



the perimeter star of a player will always be the premier ball handler of a team regardless of what position he's officialy listed as, therefore making him the defacto PG of that team.


If you mean perimeter star, best scorer/most impactful wing player, then not at all. Dennis Johnson/Larry Bird, Stockton/Hornacek, Avery Johnson/Sean Elliott, Mark Jackson/Reggie Miller, Chauncey Billups/Rip Hamilton to name title/finals teams. Irving, Wall, et al aren't "capable" because we're in an era of stacked super-teams, not because they are inherently deficient for the task.

That said, I'm not talking about height of the player, but style of play. If you don't have a perimeter player on the roster that isn't a great ball handler who can also pass, shoot from distance off the dribble, and run the pick-and-roll, your team has a bigger hill to climb than those who do. That's what I mean when I say it's a PG's league. Look at the date when I made this thread. The preceding title teams of the last decade weren't built around players of that mold. The mid-00s Spurs were very much 4-down, grit-and-grind, with Parker and Manu playing off Duncan most of the time. Shaq/Wade. Post + penetration (Wade was a terrible long distance shooter then). Gasol/Kobe Lakers. Kobe has always been just an average ball handler and prefers his static mid-post game over anything else. The non-shooting/non-scoring Jason Kidd was the PG of the 2011 Mavs, and their offense went through Dirk in the mid-post (he only took 2.4 3s per game in the playoffs) with Terry and Marion spotting up.

The two peat Heat is when we started to get a sense of the space-and-pace era to come, with Lebron, a PG, playing the central role in being a threat off the dribble in every area (from running pick-and-rolls, to penetration, to deep jumpers off the dribble), but I didn't sound the alarm because Lebron=once-in-a-generation and all that and he plays a total game. He can shoot for 3, mid-range, penetration, post, etc. Those Heat also didn't spam 3s. 2014 Spurs were heavy on ball-movement and generated those 3s with side-to-side/inside out passing, but again, that style of play was a hint at things to come, even though that offense wasn't at all PG centric, with Duncan still the team's most valuable player over the run. Then the Warriors.

After the Warriors? What do all the remaining teams have in common? A ball-handling PG who is threat is every area of the game, shooting, penetration, pick-and-roll, etc. To clarify, when I say "it's a PG's league," what I mean is that a team isn't going to resurrect something like 4-down, the Triangle, the Princeton Offense, etc and have success, since those systems are PG agnostic. And the reason those systems decentralize the PG is to make them harder to defend, allowing a team to attack from any angle and any player. Now it's HORNS 90% of the time because of how p-n-r centric it is. It's also stupidly simple compared to the others. Now why would systems centered around the PG be harder to defend today than more dimensional and complex offenses like the Triangle and Princeton? The 3 point shot. The other systems work inside-out and seek to create high percentage shots close to the basket, while something like HORNS is outside-in, depending on the attention a Curry, Harden, Lebron draws out of the middle to create lanes and spacing. If the defense sags/goes under the picks to cut off penetration and roll men, you get killed with the 3 off the dribble by those types of players. This is why the pick-and-roll (or any general screen heavy offense featuring a shooting PG as the ball-handler) is so powerful. It forces a defense into a dilemma (give up penetration/close out on 3) it can't hope to defend at the same time. And the engine behind it is an elite ball handler who can shoot. Yes, all effective offenses will force a defense into a dilemma, but what makes the current style so effective is that you can't ball deny, trap, or really double team a PG in the same way you can a big or traditional wing. They can dribble out of trouble into space (again, why ball handling is so important today) where the others can't.

[Raven]

it's been a SF's league for a decade now, the pg narrative is pretty laughable, and it started and ended with Derrick Rose's MVP year.

[DAF86]

Not really. A PG has a clear role. He is the main ball handler and set up man for the team. Wings are called "wings" because they play and set up on the flanks during any given possession. Yes, Steve Kerr was a wing. Furthermore, the Triangle was a system where ball handling wasn't that important and never needed a great ball handler to execute. It centered on quick ball and player movement within said "triangles" to create mismatches and create open shots. The Triangle is also outdated for the very reason that it isn't PG centric and is a post heavy offense. Positions listings have always been irrelevant to what the actual role of a player is on the team. "Wings" are players like James Worthy, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Durant, Larry Bird, Ray Allen, and yes, Jordan and Pippen (they might've been the primary ball handlers, but the offense they were playing in really was something any player with average ball handling skills could set up. Jordan nor Pippen would be able to run an offense that relied on passing from dribble-drive penetration, probing, or the pick-and-roll).





If you mean perimeter star, best scorer/most impactful wing player, then not at all. Dennis Johnson/Larry Bird, Stockton/Hornacek, Avery Johnson/Sean Elliott, Mark Jackson/Reggie Miller, Chauncey Billups/Rip Hamilton to name title/finals teams. Irving, Wall, et al aren't "capable" because we're in an era of stacked super-teams, not because they are inherently deficient for the task.

That said, I'm not talking about height of the player, but style of play. If you don't have a perimeter player on the roster that isn't a great ball handler who can also pass, shoot from distance off the dribble, and run the pick-and-roll, your team has a bigger hill to climb than those who do. That's what I mean when I say it's a PG's league. Look at the date when I made this thread. The preceding title teams of the last decade weren't built around players of that mold. The mid-00s Spurs were very much 4-down, grit-and-grind, with Parker and Manu playing off Duncan most of the time. Shaq/Wade. Post + penetration (Wade was a terrible long distance shooter then). Gasol/Kobe Lakers. Kobe has always been just an average ball handler and prefers his static mid-post game over anything else. The non-shooting/non-scoring Jason Kidd was the PG of the 2011 Mavs, and their offense went through Dirk in the mid-post (he only took 2.4 3s per game in the playoffs) with Terry and Marion spotting up.

The two peat Heat is when we started to get a sense of the space-and-pace era to come, with Lebron, a PG, playing the central role in being a threat off the dribble in every area (from running pick-and-rolls, to penetration, to deep jumpers off the dribble), but I didn't sound the alarm because Lebron=once-in-a-generation and all that and he plays a total game. He can shoot for 3, mid-range, penetration, post, etc. Those Heat also didn't spam 3s. 2014 Spurs were heavy on ball-movement and generated those 3s with side-to-side/inside out passing, but again, that style of play was a hint at things to come, even though that offense wasn't at all PG centric, with Duncan still the team's most valuable player over the run. Then the Warriors.

After the Warriors? What do all the remaining teams have in common? A ball-handling PG who is threat is every area of the game, shooting, penetration, pick-and-roll, etc. To clarify, when I say "it's a PG's league," what I mean is that a team isn't going to resurrect something like 4-down, the Triangle, the Princeton Offense, etc and have success, since those systems are PG agnostic. And the reason those systems decentralize the PG is to make them harder to defend, allowing a team to attack from any angle and any player. Now it's HORNS 90% of the time because of how p-n-r centric it is. It's also stupidly simple compared to the others. Now why would systems centered around the PG be harder to defend today than more dimensional and complex offenses like the Triangle and Princeton? The 3 point shot. The other systems work inside-out and seek to create high percentage shots close to the basket, while something like HORNS is outside-in, depending on the attention a Curry, Harden, Lebron draws out of the middle to create lanes and spacing. If the defense sags/goes under the picks to cut off penetration and roll men, you get killed with the 3 off the dribble by those types of players. This is why the pick-and-roll (or any general screen heavy offense featuring a shooting PG as the ball-handler) is so powerful. It forces a defense into a dilemma (give up penetration/close out on 3) it can't hope to defend at the same time. And the engine behind it is an elite ball handler who can shoot. Yes, all effective offenses will force a defense into a dilemma, but what makes the current style so effective is that you can't ball deny, trap, or really double team a PG in the same way you can a big or traditional wing. They can dribble out of trouble into space (again, why ball handling is so important today) where the others can't.

Why do you love cyclic, useless arguments so much son? It's a PG league, right? So I guess you think teams built around players like Irving and Lillard would fare better than teams built around players like Durant and Kawhi, right?

[midnightpulp]

Why do you love cyclic, useless arguments so much son? It's a PG league, right? So I guess you think teams built around players like Irving and Lillard would fare better than teams built around players like Durant and Kawhi, right?

What's Leonard done since being "built around?" Durant has never played on a team without an elite PG. And why do you love hand waving so much when you lose an argument? Just say "I meant it's not a midget's league" and be done with it. But the fact is if the best player on the team doesn't play like a pg, he's destined to be the sidekick.

[DAF86]

What's Leonard done since being "built around?" Durant has never played on a team without an elite PG. And why do you love hand waving so much when you lose an argument? Just say "I meant it's not a midget's league" and be done with it. But the fact is if the best player on the team doesn't play like a pg, he's destined to be the sidekick.

2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.

[Killakobe81]

2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.

not trying to interrupt the dick measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.

[DAF86]

not trying to interrupt the dick measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.

Well, you are wrong.

Draymond Green leads the Warriors in both assists and touches per game. In fact, he's second overall in the entire NBA on that second stat.

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1

Edit: Sorry, that is for the playoffs. He's 17th for the regular season, still the number one Warrior ball handler though.

[midnightpulp]

2 60+ wins seasons. One culminating on the second round against a team that was a choke away from eliminating the Warriors too. And the other one culminating on the WCF when the team completely fell apart without him.

Durant never playing without an elite PG is a lame attempt to escape the original question. which is: who do you trust more to lead a team to a championship, a guy like Durant or a guy like Irving/Wall/Lillard?

Also, you seem to acomodate the definition of PG according to your needs. Lebron is the PG of the Cavs because he is the premier ball handler of the team, but then you say Curry is the PG of the Warriors, despite Draymond Green having more ball-handling duties than him.

Loaded question. You're comparing an all-time great wing to 2nd tier all star level PGs. Here's a better question: Jimmy Butler or Lillard? I pick Lillard, even if Butler's RPM is nice. :lol Draymond the primary ball handler.

Curry leads the Warriors in drives: http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

Curry leads the Warriors in time of possession: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

Curry leads the starters in dribbles per touch: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH&dir=1

Those are all ball handling stats. Touches do not equal ball handling duties. As you'll see, Draymond doesn't drive, he averages just a little over 1 dribble per touch. Along with KD, he's the Warriors top post option. The primary ball handler is the player who brings the ball up, sets up the offense, and generates offense from the dribble. Draymond doesn't do that. Curry does.

[DAF86]

Loaded question. You're comparing an all-time great wing to 2nd tier all star level PGs. Here's a better question: Jimmy Butler or Lillard? I pick Lillard, even if Butler's RPM is nice. :lol Draymond the primary ball handler.

Curry leads the Warriors in drives: http://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

Curry leads the Warriors in time of possession: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

Curry leads the starters in dribbles per touch: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH&dir=1

Those are all ball handling stats. Touches do not equal ball handling duties. As you'll see, Draymond doesn't drive, he averages just a little over 1 dribble per touch. Along with KD, he's the Warriors top post option. The primary ball handler is the player who brings the ball up, sets up the offense, and generates offense from the dribble. Draymond doesn't do that. Curry does.

Didn't you say Lebron has been the PG of the Cavs for the last 4 seasons? Well, last season Irving lead the Cavs on all those things you say determine the real PG of a team, so what's gonna be son? Pick a lane and stay there. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and there is no "changing the definition of a PG" to arbitrarily back my argument. PGs have very clear roles. They bring the ball up, set up the offense, and quarterback the offense off the dribble usually from the top of the key since that's the area of the court where they best have an overall view of the offense/defense and have the most spacing to work with. Roster listings are irrelevant. Steve Kerr was not a fuckin' PG. Patty Mills isn't a PG. Wings are called wings because they, you know, set up in spot up positions at the wing areas of the court and/or flank the PG when he pushes the ball up during a fast break (James Worthy, Drexler, etc). Saying this is a "wing's" league suggests that the league is being dominated by Ray Allen or Kobe types. No. The most effective players in the modern NBA are those players, despite size and nominal position listing, who are "5 tool players," in that they can dribble, drive, shoot off the dribble from distance, pass, and set up the offense from that top of the key of position (this is important as it allows for the most versatility in the pick-and-roll).

[midnightpulp]

Didn't you said Lebron has been the PG of the Cavs for the last 4 seasons? Well, last season Irving lead the Cavs on all those things you say determine the real PG of a team, so what's gonna be son? Pick a lane and stay there. :lol

There's nothing preventing a team having two PGs on the court. The Triangle would basically have 2 SGs on the court. Harden beats CP3 in all those stats as well, but CP3 is definitely a PG. They basically take turns in that regard, just like Irving/Lebron did. I can easily flip this on you. Harden is a "wing" since it's a "wing's" league, yet he leads CP3 in all ball handling categories. Pick a lane. I don't agree with that because I'm not an obstinate deflector like you afraid to be proven wrong. Houston runs an offense with 2 PGs. Simple as that. Seems you're hung up on position listings from roster sheets.

[DAF86]

Oh, and there is no "changing the definition of a PG" to arbitrarily back my argument. PGs have very clear roles. They bring the ball up, set up the offense, and quarterback the offense off the dribble usually from the top of the key since that's the area of the court where they best have an overall view of the offense/defense and have the most spacing to work with. Roster listings are irrelevant. Steve Kerr was not a fuckin' PG. Patty Mills isn't a PG. Wings are called wings because they, you know, set up in spot up positions at the wing areas of the court and/or flank the PG when he pushes the ball up during a fast break (James Worthy, Drexler, etc). Saying this is a "wing's" league suggests that the league is being dominated by Ray Allen or Kobe types. No. The most effective players in the modern NBA are those players, despite size and nominal position listing, who are "5 tool players," in that they can dribble, drive, shoot off the dribble from distance, pass, and set up the offense from that top of the key of position (this is important as it allows for the most versatility in the pick-and-roll).

Well, Patty Mills leads Manu in 2 of the 3 categories that you brought up as the onda that determine who the PG is. I guess that means Mills is more of a PG than Manu is, right?

[midnightpulp]

not trying to interrupt the dick measuring ...but erroneus to say green is,the primary ball handler. That is Steph when healthy green does bring up the ball and playmakes a bunch but I think steph is the primary ball handlerf slightly over green and green slightly over KD.

He comes up with the most incredible bullshit in arguments to try and "win." Only an idiot would think Draymond is the "primary ball handler" of the Warriors. He gets the majority of his touches in the paint, as you'll see: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=PAINT_TOUCHES&dir=1

[midnightpulp]

Well, Patty Mills leads Manu in 2 of the 3 categories that you brought up as the onda that determine who the PG is. I guess that means Mills is more of a PG than Manu is, right?

Manu isn't a PG, even though he has some PG type skills. They're both wings. Parker triples and doubles both of them up on those ball-handling stats. He's the PG. This is from 2014 when Manu wasn't 70 and still effective:

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

And cross compare Manu and Mills' ball handling stats to PGs around the league.

[DAF86]

There's nothing preventing a team having two PGs on the court. The Triangle would basically have 2 SGs on the court. Harden beats CP3 in all those stats as well, but CP3 is definitely a PG. They basically take turns in that regard, just like Irving/Lebron did. I can easily flip this on you. Harden is a "wing" since it's a "wing's" league, yet he leads CP3 in all ball handling categories. Pick a lane. I don't agree with that because I'm not an obstinate deflector like you afraid to be proven wrong. Houston runs an offense with 2 PGs. Simple as that. Seems you're hung up on position listings from roster sheets.

Actually, it's the other way around. I have already conceded that a guy like Lebron is the actual PG of his team. The problem I have with you is that you seem to have no problem acknowleding Lebron is a defacto PG, but then try to say that guys like Pippen and Jordan back on the days weren't also defacto PG's, hanging to the dishonest idea that the triangle "didn't need PG's" as if Jordan had never played a pick and roll in his life.

Elite wing players have always been defacto PG's. Kobe was the playmaker of the Lakers, not Fisher. Iverson was the playmaker of the Sixers, not Snow. McGrady was the playmaker of the Magic, not Armstrong. And like that I can give tons and tons of examples.

Going back to the original point, we actually agree on the fact that the type of player that is best suited to lead a successful team on today's NBA is a "5 tool player", on what we disagree is on you categorizing that as a PG type player (hence the PG league reference), when in reality the players that utilize those "5 tools" the best are players who are 6'6'' or above, heights under which wing players tend to be listed.

One more thing that you have to remember is that now, more than ever, not having defensive liabilities is huge and size on the perimeter is prioritized more than ever. That's just another thing for which, calling today's NBA a "PG league" is mistake, imho.

[DAF86]

He comes up with the most incredible bullshit in arguments to try and "win." Only an idiot would think Draymond is the "primary ball handler" of the Warriors. He gets the majority of his touches in the paint, as you'll see: http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612744&sort=PAINT_TOUCHES&dir=1

Those "paint" touches are plays where Draymond gets the ball at the top of the key, or elbows, so that he can read the defense and take what is given to him; while the other players, including Curry, run around and set screens for each other. What action sounds more "pointguardy" to you, reading the defense or running around to get an open look?

[midnightpulp]

Actually, it's the other way around. I have already conceded that a guy like Lebron is the actual PG of his team. The problem I have with you is that you seem to have no problem acknowleding Lebron is a defacto PG, but then try to say that guys like Pippen and Jordan back on the days weren't also defacto PG's, hanging to the dishonest idea that the triangle "didn't need PG's" as if Jordan had never played a pick and roll in his life.

Elite wing players have always been defacto PG's. Kobe was the playmaker of the Lakers, not Fisher. Iverson was the playmaker of the Sixers, not Snow. McGrady was the playmaker of the Magic, not Armstrong. And like that I can give tons and tons of examples.

Going back to the original point, we actually agree on the fact that the type of player that is best suited to lead a successful team on today's NBA is a "5 tool player", on what we disagree is on you categorizing that as a PG type player (hence the PG league reference), when in reality the players that utilize those "5 tools" the best are players who are 6'6'' or above, heights under which wing players tend to be listed.

One more thing that you have to remember is that now, more than ever, not having defensive liabilities is huge and size on the perimeter is prioritized more than ever. That's just another thing for which, calling today's NBA a "PG league" is mistake, imho.

Calling the Triangle "PG agnostic" is not a dishonest idea at all. The whole system was designed to prioritize ball movement over "dribbling" to initiate the offense. Look here. This is the triangle in a nutshell. No single player is "dribbling" the ball up and initiating the offense that way. The ball first moves around the "Triangle" and then to Jordan in an iso on the wing. Then back out to reset (tried to make a gif out of this possession, but it's locking up).

http://i64.tinypic.com/m99law.jpg

Look where Jordan is. Look who touched the ball first (Kukoc). And Scottie during this possession didn't dribble, probe, or drive once. Now contrast it with how Stockton was running the Jazz offense. Dribble, dribble, dribble into a pick-and-roll play, just like today. If it's a "wing's" league in the traditional definition of how wings play, why aren't teams dominating with the Triangle? It's arguably the most effective offense for a traditional wing to play in, which is why I argued for it to implemented for Kawhi, since the fanboys upstairs were tired of him being parked in spot up positions during HORNS and other pick-and-roll sets. Reason? Because of the power of the 3, the most effective offenses today are built around players who can dribble, since pick-and-roll is dribble centric. What mold of players best run pick-and-rolls? PGs (who can shoot).

[midnightpulp]

Those "paint" touches are plays where Draymond gets the ball at the top of the key, or elbows, so that he can read the defense and take what is given to him; while the other players, including Curry, run around and set screens for each other. What action sounds more "pointguardy" to you, reading the defense or running around to get an open look?

That sounds like a player properly playing the high post. There's no arguing this. Steph is the catalyst for that offense. Their record without him was 17-14.

[DAF86]

Calling the Triangle "PG agnostic" is not a dishonest idea at all. The whole system was designed to prioritize ball movement over "dribbling" to initiate the offense. Look here. This is the triangle in a nutshell. No single player is "dribbling" the ball up and initiating the offense that way. The ball first moves around the "Triangle" and then to Jordan in an iso on the wing. Then back out to reset (tried to make a gif out of this possession, but it's locking up).

http://i64.tinypic.com/m99law.jpg

Look where Jordan is. Look who touched the ball first (Kukoc). And Scottie during this possession didn't dribble, probe, or drive once. Now contrast it with how Stockton was running the Jazz offense. Dribble, dribble, dribble into a pick-and-roll play, just like today. If it's a "wing's" league in the traditional definition of how wings play, why aren't teams dominating with the Triangle? It's arguably the most effective offense for a traditional wing to play in, which is why I argued for it to implemented for Kawhi, since the fanboys upstairs were tired of him being parked in spot up positions during HORNS and other pick-and-roll sets. Reason? Because of the power of the 3, the most effective offenses today are built around players who can dribble, since pick-and-roll is dribble centric. What mold of players best run pick-and-rolls? PGs (who can shoot).

I would say the trinagle is more about organizing pieces and setting a structure than "ball movement". The triangle can get pretty stagnant with a lot of looking and standing around for role players. A system like the Princeton offense is more about "ball movement".

The drving on the tringle offense came from the isolations that this system created, or are you now going to tell me that guys like Jordan and Pippen didn't drive to the basket?

I do agree that there isn't much room for typical plays like a pick and roll, but then again, many times Phil Jackson teams would go away from the triangle offense and just run some basic pick and rolls. I'm sure many Lakers fans here can attest to that.

And then again, how many teams had PG's that attacked the basket and ran pick and rolls time and time again? You won't confuse most PG's of that era (like Avery Johnson, Eric Show, Charlie Ward, Chris Child, Derek Fisher, etc) with driving threats, tbh. Were they not PG's because they didn't have these features?

[midnightpulp]

Further point on the Triangle. Derek Rose didn't like it because it "took the ball out of his hands," and he could play his typical PG style of driving, dribbling, and creating off the pick-and-roll.


“I felt we had a sense of the triangle when we came out of camp,” Rose said. “I pick up things quick. Me being gone away at trial was a problem. You just pass the ball to the top and run to the corner. How hard could that be? That’s not hard at all.”

Rose wants to get buckets and by that being said, he isn’t going to just settle for passing the rock all day without driving to the basket at least 10 to 11 times in one game.

Rose is a scorer, he is a go-to player, as he was with the Chicago Bulls. He isn’t going to set screens all day in offense, roll, cut, and pass till there is an open man. He is going to pick and roll with his big, drive to the basket, look for an open man on the perimeter, pass the ball if necessary, zoom his way through every fast break and make plays through the quickly exerted offense. He is a scoring point guard who needs to be on a team where the pace is never slow.

And that's exactly how all the top perimeter players in the league start the offense now, thus it being a "PG's league."

[DAF86]

That sounds like a player properly playing the high post. There's no arguing this. Steph is the catalyst for that offense. Their record without him was 17-14.

Sure, but not specifically for doing "PG stuff". Actually I would argue that his gravity as an off-ball player is even more relevant than him just dribbling the ball up, getting a screen and launching a 30 footer.

[DAF86]

Further point on the Triangle. Derek Rose didn't like it because it "took the ball out of his hands," and he could play his typical PG style of driving, dribbling, and creating off the pick-and-roll.



And that's exactly how all the top perimeter players in the league start the offense now, thus it being a "PG's league."

Again, your problem comes from the fact that you think being the ball handler in a pick and roll situation is strictly a PG related play, when in fact every kind of perimeter player has been put in that position before.

Coaches don't say: "oh, you are the PG, so you are going to run the pick and roll". No, it doesn't work like that. If your PG is Jacque Vaughn, and your SG is Manu Ginóbili, you are going to give the pick and roll situations to Manu Ginóbili, not to fucking Jacque Vaughn.

[midnightpulp]

I would say the trinagle is more about organizing pieces and setting a structure than "ball movement". The triangle can get pretty stagnant with a lot of looking and standing around for role players. A system like the Princeton offense is more about "ball movement".

The drving on the tringle offense came from the isolations that this system created, or are you now going to tell me that guys like Jordan and Pippen didn't drive to the basket?

I do agree that there isn't much room for typical plays like a pick and roll, but then again, many times Phil Jackson teams would go away from the triangle offense and just run some basic pick and rolls. I'm sure many Lakers fans here can attest to that.

And then again, how many teams had PG's that attacked the basket and ran pick and rolls time and time again? You won't confuse most PG's of that era (like Avery Johnson, Eric Show, Charlie Ward, Chris Child, Derek Fisher, etc) with driving threats, tbh. Were they not PG's because they didn't have these features?

:lol The Triangle is all about passing. It's why Rose and that Knicks starting lineup didn't like it. From that Rose article:

The Triangle involves a lot of cutting, passing, screens, and high Bball IQ and most of all, PATIENCE. The starting five for the NYK is not patient enough to do this, but the second group, however, is. Rose wants to get buckets and by that being said, he isn’t going to just settle for passing the rock all day without driving to the basket at least 10 to 11 times in one game.

Just because a wing dribble-drives doesn't make him a PG. Gary Payton like to post-up. Guess that makes him a center. Running a few pick and rolls doesn't make the offense built around it nor does it make the players who run it effective pick-and-roll players over the long term. Avery Johnson was one of the fastest players in the league and was the Spurs best penetrator in those days. There was Kevin Johnson, Zeke, Hardaway, Strickland, Kenny Anderson, the list goes on of players who like to dribble and create off the dribble for themselves and teammates.

[midnightpulp]

Again, your problem comes from the fact that you think being the ball handler in a pick and roll situation is strictly a PG related play, when in fact every kind of perimeter player has been put in that position before.

Coaches don't say: "oh, you are the PG, so you are going to run the pick and roll". No, it doesn't work like that. If your PG is Jacque Vaughn, and your SG is Manu Ginóbili, you are going to give the pick and roll situations to Manu Ginóbili, not to fucking Jacque Vaughn.

PGs run it the most effectively. Manu over Vaughn is an exception, not the rule. If it's between Manu and Tony Parker, I'm taking Tony Parker. If it's between Durant and Curry, you know the answer. Lillard or McCollum? Obvious. Of course every perimeter has occasionally run the play, doesn't mean they can do it long term. And now that it's become the most important play in basketball, what type of players are teams going to prioritize now? A Ray Allen who can run it "okay" some of the time, or a dribbling PG who can spam it every possession?

[DAF86]

More than "a PG's league", I would say that the phrase that best describes today's NBA style is "positionless basketball". Everybody is a playmaker and everybody defends every position.

That's why the Warriors are so ahead of everybody (besides talent). They don't have one big ball-hogger ala Harden, Lebron or Westbrook. They all share the ball and take turns as playmakers and off ball players, as well as having the versatily to switch 1 through 5 on defense.

[midnightpulp]

Sure, but not specifically for doing "PG stuff". Actually I would argue that his gravity as an off-ball player is even more relevant than him just dribbling the ball up, getting a screen and launching a 30 footer.

I don't think so. Do you see the havoc and spacing Curry creates when the ball is in his hands and he's dribbling into a pick? The entire defense is sucked in, which is why he walks in so many layups. At least when he's "off ball," the ball is out of his hands. Furthermore, Curry spots up only 11.3% of the time, so his off ball work doesn't really conclude in him taking a shot "created" by others. Draymond spots up 25% of the time. And typically, the PG has one of the lowest spot up percentages on the team. He's the conductor of that offense. Assists are irrelevant, always have been.

[Arcadian]

it's been a SF's league for a decade now, the pg narrative is pretty laughable, and it started and ended with Derrick Rose's MVP year.

How about Curry's back-to-back MVP years?

I actually agree that a versatile forward is the most valuable type of player, but Rose is a straw man...

[DAF86]

PGs run it the most effectively. Manu over Vaughn is an exception, not the rule. If it's between Manu and Tony Parker, I'm taking Tony Parker. If it's between Durant and Curry, you know the answer. Lillard or McCollum? Obvious. Of course every perimeter has occasionally run the play, doesn't mean they can do it long term. And now that it's become the most important play in basketball, what type of players are teams going to prioritize now? A Ray Allen who can run it "okay" some of the time, or a dribbling PG who can spam it every possession?

I don't know, besides Curry, the most coveted players are Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, etc. So you tell me.

[midnightpulp]

More than "a PG's league", I would say that the phrase that best describes today's NBA style is "positionless basketball". Everybody is a playmaker and everybody defends every position.

That's why the Warriors are so ahead of everybody (besides talent). They don't have one big ball-hogger ala Harden, Lebron or Westbrook. They all share the ball and take turns as playmakers and off ball players, as well as having the versatily to switch 1 through 5 on defense.

We're moving toward it, yes, but in this transition it's a PG's league. I don't mean "midget's league," but PGs have always been the best players on the team in terms of all-around basketball skills, only traditionally limited by their height. If we're going to move to positionless basketball, yeah, all players will need to have a range of PG skills (those 5 tools). I argue against the movement because basketball is unique in it being a sport where a variety of heights have different roles while also being about the only sport a player 6'10" and over can play at a professional level. Season by season, bigs will slowly get slowly shorter and shorter until everyone is basically a 6'6" "5 tool player". Guys too much taller will be limited by their physiology in effectively learning all of the 5 tools. I know Davis, Towns, etc have had some good seasons, but those kind of players are endangered and easily exposed in the playoffs. And the evolution was totally manufactured by the league, not a natural progression of "better talent." They league went into panic mode following the low ratings of grindy, post-centric, slow teams like the Spurs and Pistons responsible for poorly rated NBA Finals and thus contrived it to "open up the game" for perimeter players.

[DAF86]

I don't think so. Do you see the havoc and spacing Curry creates when the ball is in his hands and he's dribbling into a pick? The entire defense is sucked in, which is why he walks in so many layups. At least when he's "off ball," the ball is out of his hands. Furthermore, Curry spots up only 11.3% of the time, so his off ball work doesn't really conclude in him taking a shot "created" by others. Draymond spots up 25% of the time. And typically, the PG has one of the lowest spot up percentages on the team. He's the conductor of that offense. Assists are irrelevant, always have been.

That "spot up" stat only takes into consideration when a player shoots the ball. It doesn't take into consideration all the times that somebody is left wide ass open because two guys went with Curry after a screen. Of course teams will try to prevent spot up shots for the best Shooter of all time, that's precisely why playing Curry off ball so much works so wonderfully.

[midnightpulp]

I don't know, besides Curry, the most coveted players are Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden, Davis, Giannis, etc. So you tell me.

Giannis ranked 17th in RPM. He can't shoot yet, and will forever be a 2nd round exit unless he learns to (or gets his Curry). Davis? No one fears bigs anymore. A team will take 30 points on 15-25 shooting all day. Big centric offenses just don't pressure defenses like they used to. He's also ranked 8th in RPM. If this were 2005, he'd be far and away ahead in every metric known to man. Kawhi is too mid-post/mid-range focused and has just average ball handling skills. I'm not saying these aren't elite players, they're just not players you build around anymore. They need their "Currys," so to speak. And yes, in any given NBA season/era, there's really only 3 or 4 players you can build around. They're all playing right now.