Jack Kelly: No shame: The federal response to Katrina was not as portrayed

[Useruser666]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

Jack Kelly: No shame
The federal response to Katrina was not as portrayed

Sunday, September 11, 2005

It is settled wisdom among journalists that the federal response to the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina was unconscionably slow.



Jack Kelly is national security writer for the Post-Gazette and The Blade of Toledo, Ohio ([email protected], 412-263-1476).


"Mr. Bush's performance last week will rank as one of the worst ever during a dire national emergency," wrote New York Times columnist Bob Herbert in a somewhat more strident expression of the conventional wisdom.

But the conventional wisdom is the opposite of the truth.

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 2002. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

Journalists who are long on opinions and short on knowledge have no idea what is involved in moving hundreds of tons of relief supplies into an area the size of England in which power lines are down, telecommunications are out, no gasoline is available, bridges are damaged, roads and airports are covered with debris, and apparently have little interest in finding out.

So they libel as a "national disgrace" the most monumental and successful disaster relief operation in world history.

I write this column a week and a day after the main levee protecting New Orleans breached. In the course of that week:

More than 32,000 people have been rescued, many plucked from rooftops by Coast Guard helicopters.

The Army Corps of Engineers has all but repaired the breaches and begun pumping water out of New Orleans.

Shelter, food and medical care have been provided to more than 180,000 refugees.

Journalists complain that it took a whole week to do this. A former Air Force logistics officer had some words of advice for us in the Fourth Estate on his blog, Moltenthought:

"We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on 'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in the recovery effort were studying engineering.

"The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

"You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets (in the affected areas) since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

"No amount of yelling, crying and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above."

"You cannot just snap your fingers and make the military appear somewhere," van Steenwyk said.

Guardsmen need to receive mobilization orders; report to their armories; draw equipment; receive orders and convoy to the disaster area. Guardsmen driving down from Pennsylvania or Navy ships sailing from Norfolk can't be on the scene immediately.

Relief efforts must be planned. Other than prepositioning supplies near the area likely to be afflicted (which was done quite efficiently), this cannot be done until the hurricane has struck and a damage assessment can be made. There must be a route reconnaissance to determine if roads are open, and bridges along the way can bear the weight of heavily laden trucks.

And federal troops and Guardsmen from other states cannot be sent to a disaster area until their presence has been requested by the governors of the afflicted states.

Exhibit A on the bill of indictment of federal sluggishness is that it took four days before most people were evacuated from the Louisiana Superdome.

The levee broke Tuesday morning. Buses had to be rounded up and driven from Houston to New Orleans across debris-strewn roads. The first ones arrived Wednesday evening. That seems pretty fast to me.

A better question -- which few journalists ask -- is why weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?

[MannyIsGod]

No plan. No motherfucking plan.

They may have responded faster, but they didn't respond with enough. We're not talking about previous hurricanes, we're talking about the largest disaster in the history of the United States. How the response of the federal government stacks up against previous responses is irrelevent when reviewing if they had an acceptable response. What makes this worse is the way the Department of Homeland Security was put into place to deal with just these kind of situations.

There is no amount of spin that will leave the pile of shit known as FEMA and the department of Homeland Security smelling like roses. No fucking way. When I have to listen to the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal - one of the most conservative publications around - rip the response I know critcism is more than warranted.

[Spurminator]

That's all well and good, but I still think Katrina has taught us that we need to be better prepared for an event such as this. Regardless of how the response compared to other lesser disasters, the timeline for getting food, medication and rescue teams to people who needs to be 2 days maximum. It's a biological timeline: people die after three days with no food/water. So four days is unacceptable.

Should we keep stockpiles of canned food, meds and bottled water in large venues that would be used in a case like this, such as the Superdome? Should we do a better job of evacuating people who cannot (or will not) evacuate themselves?

There is a time for assessing blame, but most of the time could be better spent assessing adjustments to emergency procedures. I would hope that any "commission" would focus on the latter.

[MannyIsGod]

Any post commission will be hijacked for political concerns. Why solve problems when you can better improve your posture for the next time your Senate seat is up for grabs?

[travis2]

"We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on 'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in the recovery effort were studying engineering.

:lmao

[Marcus Bryant]

A few observations...

Expecting any governmental agency to turn on a dime is wishful thinking. Expecting multiple agencies across three layers of government to do so is absurd.

The federal response to hurricanes has always been about long-term recovery, not immediate short-term rescue on an epic scale.

The NO local govt did what it could and that was to tell everyone who could to GTFO. According to the mayor, they had a 80% evacuation rate in the city. Hard to argue with that.

If you're looking to blame someone, blame those who over the course of three centuries believed that a city bordered by a lake and the sea, built below sea level, was a great idea.

[MannyIsGod]

I just feel the admission of not planning for this event is too much for me to swallow.

[Useruser666]

My point to posting this was not to make excuses, but it does show some insight into the response time issue. I think what happened to NO has just never happened before in US and so never before has a strategy plan been needed to deal with such wide spread disaster. I think it is also ridiculous to believe that we have the resources to simply give aid to everyone that's in trouble the second a hurricane like Katrina passes. It's a nearly impossible feat, yet everyone expects FEMA or someone else to swoop in and rescue everyone in a second. That's simply not going to happen when events like this take place.

[Useruser666]

I just feel the admission of not planning for this event is too much for me to swallow.

I don't think you can fully plan for some types of disasters. More could have been done for Katrina, but sometimes mother nature ruins your plans.

[Marcus Bryant]

Actually, the event was "planned for". Some seem to think it was possible for the Feds, the state of Louisiana and/or the city of NO to have a website set up where all that was needed to do was click a few buttons and voila...crisis over.

You have a natural disaster on an epic scale and governments that behaved like, well, governments. Expecting some kind of swift response to massive flooding is a bit unrealistic.

[MannyIsGod]

The head of Homeland Security disagrees with you, Marcus.



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.

But in fact, government officials, scientists and journalists have warned of such a scenario for years.

Chertoff, fielding questions from reporters, said government officials did not expect both a powerful hurricane and a breach of levees that would flood the city of New Orleans. (See the video on a local paper's prophetic warning -- 3:30 )

"That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight," Chertoff said.

He called the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise."

Straight form the horse's mouth.

[The Ressurrected One]

It appears all the hand-wringing was unnecessary...

Hopelessness Begins to Lift in New Orleans (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050912/D8CIM1K80.html)

It appears the feds got damn near everyone out, in spite of the local and state incompetence. Three cheers for the Coast Guard and National Guard.

Now, we can decide who's responsible for the debacle at the Superdome and Convention Center.

[boutons]

"turn on a dime"

BS. Nobody's asking to anybody to turn on a straw-man dime.

People expect FEMA/etc to be well-planned, and in motion, prepped, stocked, manned, etc as soon as a hurricane is identified and its route predicted, 2,3 days before it hits, so relief can be provided as soon as the hurricane passes. After all the hurricanes in the past 15 years, people really expect the billions spent on DHS/FEMA to provide timely relief. We're talking about hurricanes tracked for days, not tornados that blow up in a few minutes.

And if NO-under-sealevel is to be blamed, then the same blame has to be applied to the entire Gulf coast, from Georgia to Mexico, which is only a couple feet above sea-level. If people insist on re-building, re-building, re-building on the beach, then their cost of living on/near the beach should reflect costs of 10s of $Bs of cleanup after cleanup after cleanup. After the 1993 floods in the upper mid-west, the Clinton govt refused to help with re-building on river-banks. An entire town was re-built on higher ground.

[MannyIsGod]

Would you guys be happy with this kind of response to a WMD attack?

Last night the while watching the WSJ Editorial Report, they mentioned the DoD regards this as as being on the scale of a WMD attack by terrorists. They were pretty upset with the response up and down the board.

I can't say I disagree one bit.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, the response was quicker than most other storms, but there was also a longer warning period than most storms had. They had a full 2 days prior to the storm in order to plan for this event. So, while Star Trek lines may make for comic relief, they add little substance to a situation that has 2 days prior warning.

[Useruser666]

"turn on a dime"

BS. Nobody's asking to anybody to turn on a straw-man dime.

People expect FEMA/etc to be well-planned, and in motion, prepped, stocked, manned, etc as soon as a hurricane is identified and its route predicted, 2,3 days before it hits, so relief can be provided as soon as the hurricane passes. After all the hurricanes in the past 15 years, people really expect the billions spent on DHS/FEMA to provide timely relief. We're talking about hurricanes tracked for days, not tornados that blow up in a few minutes.

And if NO-under-sealevel is to be blamed, then the same blame has to be applied to the entire Gulf coast, from Georgia to Mexico, which is only a couple feet above sea-level. If people insist on re-building, re-building, re-building on the beach, then their cost of living on/near the beach should reflect costs of 10s of $Bs of cleanup after cleanup after cleanup. After the 1993 floods in the upper mid-west, the Clinton govt refused to help with re-building on river-banks. An entire town was re-built on higher ground.


I think FEMA and other aid did start right away. The problem is not when it started, but how large the scope of destruction was. Flooding was also a major hinderance to rescue and recovery efforts. It's hard to get aid through such a landscape.

[The Ressurrected One]

"turn on a dime"

BS. Nobody's asking to anybody to turn on a straw-man dime.

People expect FEMA/etc to be well-planned, and in motion, prepped, stocked, manned, etc as soon as a hurricane is identified and its route predicted, 2,3 days before it hits, so relief can be provided as soon as the hurricane passes. After all the hurricanes in the past 15 years, people really expect the billions spent on DHS/FEMA to provide timely relief. We're talking about hurricanes tracked for days, not tornados that blow up in a few minutes.
It's starting to appear that FEMA was prepared and that the federal response is all that kept this from being a humanitarian crisis of unimaginable magnitude.

And if NO-under-sealevel is to be blamed, then the same blame has to be applied to the entire Gulf coast, from Georgia to Mexico, which is only a couple feet above sea-level. If people insist on re-building, re-building, re-building on the beach, then their cost of living on/near the beach should reflect costs of 10s of $Bs of cleanup after cleanup after cleanup. After the 1993 floods in the upper mid-west, the Clinton govt refused to help with re-building on river-banks. An entire town was re-built on higher ground.
There's a huge difference between being below sea level and even an inch above it. The biggest being how long the water stays.

I do agree that federal flood insurance should be denied those that rebuild in flood prone areas. If it's that special, rebuild on your own dime.

[Marcus Bryant]

The head of Homeland Security disagrees with you, Marcus.



Straight form the horse's mouth.


"Planning" as in that the feds, state, and city have expected such a disaster for quite some time. There was a 'war game' done by at least the state and city late last year with the anticipation of a major hurricane hitting the city.

Anyways, my point is governmental ineptitude and inefficiency, which your quote supports.

[ChumpDumper]

It appears all the hand-wringing was unnecessary...Tell that to the dead.

[Clandestino]

so, then why did people refuse to leave and are still refusing? they had ample time. if the fed gov is supposed to be able to bring in supplies for over 100,000 people at the snap of a finger, then one family should be able to get their ass out too...

the us gov takes months and months to provide all the logistics to soldiers when preparing for battle

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, the response was quicker than most other storms, but there was also a longer warning period than most storms had. They had a full 2 days prior to the storm in order to plan for this event. So, while Star Trek lines may make for comic relief, they add little substance to a situation that has 2 days prior warning.

That's because the federal approach to hurricanes has always been recovery, not rescue.

[The Ressurrected One]

Tell that to the dead.
Hundreds, instead of 10's of thousands...do you not even acknowledge the difference?

[MannyIsGod]

That's because the federal approach to hurricanes has always been recovery, not rescue.
Fair enough, but in a situation that New Orleans was in they should have been prepared for rescue as well. This was an eventuality, not a possibility.

[Marcus Bryant]

"turn on a dime"

BS. Nobody's asking to anybody to turn on a straw-man dime.

People expect FEMA/etc to be well-planned, and in motion, prepped, stocked, manned, etc as soon as a hurricane is identified and its route predicted, 2,3 days before it hits, so relief can be provided as soon as the hurricane passes. After all the hurricanes in the past 15 years, people really expect the billions spent on DHS/FEMA to provide timely relief. We're talking about hurricanes tracked for days, not tornados that blow up in a few minutes.


You know what? The "people" were being unrealistic.

About the only thing the government can do efficiently and quickly is launch military strikes, and even that is wrought with bureaucratic ineptitude.




And if NO-under-sealevel is to be blamed, then the same blame has to be applied to the entire Gulf coast, from Georgia to Mexico, which is only a couple feet above sea-level. If people insist on re-building, re-building, re-building on the beach, then their cost of living on/near the beach should reflect costs of 10s of $Bs of cleanup after cleanup after cleanup. After the 1993 floods in the upper mid-west, the Clinton govt refused to help with re-building on river-banks. An entire town was re-built on higher ground.


Well sure. A lot of people live in high-risk areas.

[ChumpDumper]

Hundreds, instead of 10's of thousands...do you not even acknowledge the difference?Dead is dead.

[The Ressurrected One]

Fair enough, but in a situation that New Orleans was in they should have been prepared for rescue as well. This was an eventuality, not a possibility.
What the fuck do you think the Coast Guard and National Guard were doing two Mondays ago, Manny?

I think we should wait for a definitive body count before we condemn the federal rescue effort.

[Marcus Bryant]

Fair enough, but in a situation that New Orleans was in they should have been prepared for rescue as well. This was an eventuality, not a possibility.

You got the best immediate response you could expect, which is the state mobilizing the national guard plus rescues done by the Coast Guard as well as private parties.

[MannyIsGod]

What the fuck do you think the Coast Guard and National Guard were doing two Mondays ago, Manny?

I think we should wait for a definitive body count before we condemn the federal rescue effort.
If you think the rescue operation was at an acceptable level...well....

[MannyIsGod]

You got the best immediate response you could expect, which is the state mobilizing the national guard plus rescues done by the Coast Guard as well as private parties.
No, I think with planning it could have been a much more efficent operation. They could have controlled the security of the city to allow the rescue operations to operate in a much better manner for one.

[Marcus Bryant]

On that scale? That's unrealistic.

[Useruser666]

In hind sight, everything can be done better. But when something so devistating happens on such a large scale, I'm not surprised things don't go as smoothly as they should have in a perfect senario.

[Marcus Bryant]

Not only are people expecting the feds to operate with an unheard of efficiency, but they are also expecting the Louisiana state government as well as the city of New Orleans to have operated in such a manner. Simply unreasonable.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure, the government fucked up and would have fucked up no matter how much planning was done beforehand.

[mookie2001]

quit playing the blame game seriously

[Marcus Bryant]

Actually, I believe the Coast Guard was rescuing citizens the day after, if not the day of.

Expecting a higher level of execution by the various levels of government is unrealistic.

[Marcus Bryant]

That's because the state didn't make the request which is due to the general lack of desire in this country of having the military turn into a domestic law enforcement unit.

Of course it's unrealistic to expect the feds to have some kind of perfect instantaneous response.

[spurster]

BushCo told us over and over again during the election that they will keep us safe. BushCo made the promise and won the election because they convinced more voters, but now BushCo shouldn't take the blame? GIve me a break.

[Marcus Bryant]

Who believes politicians?

[The Ressurrected One]

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/Cartoons/09-12-2005.gif

[Nbadan]

I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.

[Useruser666]

naturally

they could have lessened the extent of their fucking-up-edness though
they should have had rescues the day of the flood

they managed to get helicopters and guardsmen in CUERO, Texas the DAY of the flood in 98

There is no way that choppers are going to be flying in hurricane force winds. Boats won't be out in those conditions either. Once the hurricane actually passes, then the rescues can begin. That's what happened in NO. That's the tragedy that people don't comprehend. On such a scale as NO, you can't help everyone all at once. It's simply not possible.

[Nbadan]

You can't help everyone, but you should help those that you can. It a disgrace when Canadian rescuers beat American rescue teams to NO. It a shame when a group of college kids can drive a two-wheel drive Hyundai to NO and evacuate 7 people while the FEDS sit on their hands.

[Useruser666]

I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.

Dan, how are you going to get that water to the people? You have no idea of the logistics nightmare that Katrina caused. You think just because you have the resources that it automatically means they can be distributed instantly.

[MannyIsGod]

Dan, how are you going to get that water to the people? You have no idea of the logistics nightmare that Katrina caused. You think just because you have the resources that it automatically means they can be distributed instantly.
Well, can't you turn that around and use that on the arguement the article makes about the busses?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Well, can't you turn that around and use that on the arguement the article makes about the busses?

HA


That entire night before Katrina struck, people were here on spurstalk, chatting all night about what if's. Imagine what a smart, organized, team of leaders in FEMA could have accomplished.

You can't make excuses for FEMA--It's fucking FEMA, man..theyre supposed to save our asses when shit like this happens (its FEMA!)

[Nbadan]

Dan, how are you going to get that water to the people? You have no idea of the logistics nightmare that Katrina caused. You think just because you have the resources that it automatically means they can be distributed instantly.

Your telling me that the U.S. military has no way to move this water onto shore? Please, they could have set up distribution centers for military convoys to pass out this water. FEMA could have just as easily confiscated all the bottled water in the region and had the military airdrop this water at the Superdome and the Convention Center.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.


Never satisfied, but to expect more is delusion. Then again, some of you would like to see even more of the national economy fall under the grip of the feds.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, can't you turn that around and use that on the arguement the article makes about the busses?


Absolutely.

[Useruser666]

You can't help everyone, but you should help those that you can. It a disgrace when Canadian rescuers beat American rescue teams to NO. It a shame when a group of college kids can drive a two-wheel drive Hyundai to NO and evacuate 7 people while the FEDS sit on their hands.

Yeah, it's a disgrace when the fed's can't come in and rescue everyone, all at the same time and not leave a single person stranded anywhere. They should have also gotten everyone who had died in the storm, the stranded pets. The feds should have evac'd all the water back to the ocean as well.

[Useruser666]

Well, can't you turn that around and use that on the arguement the article makes about the busses?

The buses were already IN the city before the hurricane hit. They were actually THERE. The local government had control enough of them to release their use immediatly. No one was holding them from using them. They simply weren't used.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

but once they got there, they (army esp.) weren't doing Shit for a couple days because they had no orders

The USCG rescued more people in NO in the two weeks following Katrina t han they did in all the waters they are responsible for in the past three years combined. Not sure where you get "weren't doing shit" from...


a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS

That's right, because the stupid ass (democratic) governor of La. wouldn't authorize it, even when the federal government said "hey, we've got this ship out here that could help."

Why? Because she was worried about the politics of a democratic POS governor having to ask a republican president for help.

[Vashner]

Joe Liberman is the one that put in the bill to form DHS and put FEMA under it..

[The Ressurrected One]

I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.
I've seen bouton and, now, Nbadan (thanks to MB), throw this out as an example of incompetent federal response to hurricane Katrina. So, let's use this as Exhibit A in demostrating how slanderous, vaccuous, without basis, uneducated, and downright dishonest are the charges from the left and the whackos.

All the following is from the official website of the USS Bataan. Please visit them and see just how busy they've been since deploying off the coast of Louisiana, in response to Hurrican Katrina.


http://www.bataan.navy.mil/news/050902-N-1467R-005.jpg



September 05, 2005 GULF OF MEXICO – The multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) completed its sixth day...
Let's see. September 5, 2005 minus 6 days...hmmm...yep, they've been on the job since Tuesday, August 30, 2005


...of Hurricane Katrina humanitarian relief efforts in the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast region on Sunday, September 4.

The ship is currently operating 45 miles south of Gulfport , Mississippi and was the first U.S. Navy warship on-station in the Gulf of Mexico . During the first two days of the relief efforts, Bataan steamed 100 miles south of New Orleans and since then she has steamed north to just off the Mississippi coast.

Four MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopters from Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron Fifteen (HM 15), based out of Corpus Christi, Texas, five MH-60 Sea Hawks from Helicopter Sea Control Squadron Twenty-Eight (HSC 28), based out of Norfolk, Va., and Bataan's Air Department have conducted flight operations almost around the clock for six days to assist in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.

“We've been extremely busy this past week with more tasks than there are hours in a day,” said Cmdr. Jeffrey Bocchicchio, Bataan 's Air Boss. “The shortest day the department has had was 16 hours long, but they understand that everything we do is critical to the mission.”

"All of the divisions and Combat Cargo working together allows the ship to have a 24-hour flight deck with the manning for 10-hour days,” said Bocchicchio. “Military units are the nation's biggest assets and what better use for them than to save our own people.”

To date, the two squadrons have transported 1,613 displaced people and delivered more than 100,000 pounds of cargo. Bataan also provided 8,000 gallons of fresh drinking water to the ravished Gulfport , Mississippi area. Sailors filled eight 500-gallon water bladders with the ship's potable water and HM 15's MH-53 helicopters transported them from the flight deck of Bataan to land.

The ship also demonstrated her sea power when a Landing Craft Unit from Assault Craft Unit Two (ACU 2), based out of Naval Amphibious Base, Little Creek, Va., went up the Mississippi River to conduct a survey of the river just days after the Hurricane ripped through the area. The LCU was gone for three days before returning to the ship's welldeck.

“Besides looking for navigational aids, our secondary mission was to help evacuate people and help the first responders, such as the Coast Guardsmen and policemen,” said Chief Warrant Officer William Fish, ACU 2 detachment Officer in Charge. “We could have provided meals, shelter and electricity if someone would have needed it.”

With all of the injured and ill refugees strewn throughout the Gulf Coast , medical personnel are in short supply. A team of 84 medical professionals from the Navy's Casualty Receiving and Treatment Ship Team Eight (CRTS 8) based out of Naval Hospital Jacksonville, Fla., embarked Bataan Friday to assist in hurricane relief medical operations. On Saturday and Sunday, 56 members of CRTS 8 medical fly away team left Bataan to provide medical support to Hurricane Katrina survivors at the New Orleans Convention Center , New Orleans International Airport and Biloxi High School in Mississippi .

Bataan 's involvement in the humanitarian assistance operations is an effort led by the Department of Defense (DoD) in conjunction with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

And, as far as not utilizing the ships hospital beds...ground hospitals were just as close, victims were flown there instead.

STFU...

[The Ressurrected One]

Joe Liberman is the one that put in the bill to form DHS and put FEMA under it..
I was wondering if anyone would recall that Bush was initially opposed to the new bureaucracy suggested by the left's call for a DHS.

[The Ressurrected One]

Well? Can we expect bouton and Nbadan to retract their baseless smear on the U.S.S. Bataan and all of her capable sailors?

[boutons]

TRO,

I said nothing about USS Bataan.

And I bet you $100 I "support the troops" better than you.

[The Ressurrected One]

TRO,

I said nothing about USS Bataan.
If you'll look at post #14 in this thread http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24545. Maybe you should search your own words before you deny something. Or, of course, it could be that you just regurgitate the leftist talking points without even reading them.

And I bet you $100 I "support the troops" better than you.
WTF?

[The Ressurrected One]

What's the matter, boutons?

[The Ressurrected One]

I'm not letting this thread die, you prick bastards...

Krugman is one of the principal spewers of Leftist rhetoric. You'd think he would have at least checked the USS Bataan's website before he started making shit up.

Boutons and Nbadan are the two biggest Bush-haters in this forum and I think the rest of this Spurstalk community needs to hold them accountable for the nonsense they post.

[mookie2001]

but TRO has one of those ribbons!

[The Ressurrected One]

but TRO has one of those ribbons!
What ribbon would that be?

[The Ressurrected One]

Just in case anyone missed the dispelling of the myth that USS Bataan sat doing nothing:


I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.
I've seen bouton and, now, Nbadan (thanks to MB), throw this out as an example of incompetent federal response to hurricane Katrina. So, let's use this as Exhibit A in demostrating how slanderous, vaccuous, without basis, uneducated, and downright dishonest are the charges from the left and the whackos.

All the following is from the official website of the USS Bataan. Please visit them and see just how busy they've been since deploying off the coast of Louisiana, in response to Hurrican Katrina.


http://www.bataan.navy.mil/news/050902-N-1467R-005.jpg



September 05, 2005 GULF OF MEXICO – The multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) completed its sixth day...
Let's see. September 5, 2005 minus 6 days...hmmm...yep, they've been on the job since Tuesday, August 30, 2005


...of Hurricane Katrina humanitarian relief efforts in the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast region on Sunday, September 4.

The ship is currently operating 45 miles south of Gulfport , Mississippi and was the first U.S. Navy warship on-station in the Gulf of Mexico . During the first two days of the relief efforts, Bataan steamed 100 miles south of New Orleans and since then she has steamed north to just off the Mississippi coast.

Four MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopters from Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron Fifteen (HM 15), based out of Corpus Christi, Texas, five MH-60 Sea Hawks from Helicopter Sea Control Squadron Twenty-Eight (HSC 28), based out of Norfolk, Va., and Bataan's Air Department have conducted flight operations almost around the clock for six days to assist in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.

“We've been extremely busy this past week with more tasks than there are hours in a day,” said Cmdr. Jeffrey Bocchicchio, Bataan 's Air Boss. “The shortest day the department has had was 16 hours long, but they understand that everything we do is critical to the mission.”

"All of the divisions and Combat Cargo working together allows the ship to have a 24-hour flight deck with the manning for 10-hour days,” said Bocchicchio. “Military units are the nation's biggest assets and what better use for them than to save our own people.”

To date, the two squadrons have transported 1,613 displaced people and delivered more than 100,000 pounds of cargo. Bataan also provided 8,000 gallons of fresh drinking water to the ravished Gulfport , Mississippi area. Sailors filled eight 500-gallon water bladders with the ship's potable water and HM 15's MH-53 helicopters transported them from the flight deck of Bataan to land.

The ship also demonstrated her sea power when a Landing Craft Unit from Assault Craft Unit Two (ACU 2), based out of Naval Amphibious Base, Little Creek, Va., went up the Mississippi River to conduct a survey of the river just days after the Hurricane ripped through the area. The LCU was gone for three days before returning to the ship's welldeck.

“Besides looking for navigational aids, our secondary mission was to help evacuate people and help the first responders, such as the Coast Guardsmen and policemen,” said Chief Warrant Officer William Fish, ACU 2 detachment Officer in Charge. “We could have provided meals, shelter and electricity if someone would have needed it.”

With all of the injured and ill refugees strewn throughout the Gulf Coast , medical personnel are in short supply. A team of 84 medical professionals from the Navy's Casualty Receiving and Treatment Ship Team Eight (CRTS 8) based out of Naval Hospital Jacksonville, Fla., embarked Bataan Friday to assist in hurricane relief medical operations. On Saturday and Sunday, 56 members of CRTS 8 medical fly away team left Bataan to provide medical support to Hurricane Katrina survivors at the New Orleans Convention Center , New Orleans International Airport and Biloxi High School in Mississippi .

Bataan 's involvement in the humanitarian assistance operations is an effort led by the Department of Defense (DoD) in conjunction with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

And, as far as not utilizing the ships hospital beds...ground hospitals were just as close, victims were flown there instead.

STFU...

[The Ressurrected One]

That lying mofo boutons has joined Nbadan on my ignore list...

[The Ressurrected One]

bumped for bouton...I will take you off ignore to see your response to this thread.

[boutons]

TRO,

You little dipshit twerp, I said nothing about Bataan.
Please keep me on your ignore list.
You'll be worse off for it.

And I "support the troops" a hell of a lot more than you (but you'll never figure out why, dumbass)

[hussker]

The buses were already IN the city before the hurricane hit. They were actually THERE. The local government had control enough of them to release their use immediatly. No one was holding them from using them. They simply weren't used.

Come on UU666, don't you know by now that people here think Halliburton and KBR drove those buses into those parking spaces under the shroud of darkness for the photo op? Ask some on this forum, they will tell you it is true...

SARCASM SARCASM SARCASM (just wanted to make it clear) :spin

[The Ressurrected One]

TRO,

You little dipshit twerp, I said nothing about Bataan.
Please keep me on your ignore list.
You'll be worse off for it.

And I "support the troops" a hell of a lot more than you (but you'll never figure out why, dumbass)
You posted that lying-ass article by Paul Krugman. Check the link you scrotum-licking, ass-sucking, bag-o-shit. :)

I'll leave you off ignore just to see what you call me next...oh, and possibly to see your retraction or admission.

[boutons]

Oh, KRUGMAN's reference to Bataan? Hey, play your gotcha games with Paul, his email is [email protected].

Even if his Bataan reference was inaccurate, the point of his article (you did get his point, did you not?) is valid and not dependent on his Bataan reference.

If you believe every word of every military press release as papally infallible, esp when the shit is hitting the fan like last week, then let me find out for you how to contact Pat Tillman's family.

[The Ressurrected One]

Oh, KRUGMAN's reference to Bataan? Hey, play your gotcha games with Paul, his email is [email protected].
I, and many others, already have.


Even if his Bataan reference was inaccurate, the point of his article (you did get his point, did you not?) is valid and not dependent on his Bataan reference.

If you believe every word of every military press release as papally infallible, esp when the shit is hitting the fan like last week, then let me find out for you how to contact Pat Tillman's family.
Not true, he used the Bataan as a principal example. It was wrong. The rest of his article is called into question.

And you perpetuated the fallacy.

Face it, the federal response to this disaster has been unprecedented in its scope and breadth...and, unrivaled in history. It is only due to the incompetence of Louisiana officials, who now try to project blame on the federal government, that anyone is even questioning the federal response.

By the way, name a time when the Republicans ever attacked the federal response to any disaster under President Clinton? I think the Democrats have set a new low for partisan attacks.

[Hook Dem]

The buses were already IN the city before the hurricane hit. They were actually THERE. The local government had control enough of them to release their use immediatly. No one was holding them from using them. They simply weren't used.
Dan posted in another thread that the mayor had no authority to use those buses. Ask him where he ever got such a notion. :lol

[SpursWoman]

By the way, name a time when the Republicans ever attacked the federal response to any disaster under President Clinton? I think the Democrats have set a new low for partisan attacks.


Natural or man-made?

[The Ressurrected One]

Natural or man-made?
I guess that would depend on how you define those two terms. But, my inference is that Republicans have never attacked Clinton -- or any Democrat, for that matter -- over their administration's response to a disaster, not of their own making.

[boutons]

"name a time when the Republicans ever attacked the federal response to any disaster under President Clinton?"

Clinton/Dems treated FEMA seriously, and built it up over the 90s. Shrub even complimented the job the Dems did with FEMA.

But after 5 years under Repug political hacks, FEMA is run down and fucked up. Katrina was a superb chance for shrub to shine and bounce higher than a dead cat.

Had shrub had Allen types running FEMA these last 5 years, shrub would look pretty damn fantastic this week, rather than resorting the his habitual Rove-sliming of NO/LA while rejecting all accountability.

And I would have congratulated him as competent, for once. (I even admire the extreme competence shrub/Repugs deploy when cutting taxes for the rich and corps, in the same way I admire the unimaginable brilliance and dedication of the 9/11 attackers. If only we had that kind of brilliance and dedication on our side. Instead we have ... shrub/Repugs. )

Alas, this week, by shrub's own handiwork, he's a bounceless dead cat. thunk!

The Repug King has no clothes, and even the Repug faithful are starting to see that.

[The Ressurrected One]

"name a time when the Republicans ever attacked the federal response to any disaster under President Clinton?"

Clinton/Dems treated FEMA seriously, and built it up over the 90s. Shrub even complimented the job the Dems did with FEMA.

But after 5 years under Repug political hacks, FEMA is run down and fucked up. Katrina was a superb chance for shrub to shine and bounce higher than a dead cat.

Had shrub had Allen types running FEMA these last 5 years, shrub would look pretty damn fantastic this week, rather than resorting the his habitual Rove-sliming of NO/LA while rejecting all accountability.

And I would have congratulated him as competent, for once. (I even admire the extreme competence shrub/Repugs deploy when cutting taxes for the rich and corps, in the same way I admire the unimaginable brilliance and dedication of the 9/11 attackers. If only we had that kind of brilliance and dedication on our side. Instead we have ... shrub/Repugs. )

Alas, this week, by shrub's own handiwork, he's a bounceless dead cat. thunk!

The Repug King has no clothes, and even the Repug faithful are starting to see that.
Okay, that didn't answer the question, and thank you for reposing it ahead of your response. I guess we can add irrelevant responses to your quiver of dim-wittedness.

[SpursWoman]

I guess that would depend on how you define those two terms. But, my inference is that Republicans have never attacked Clinton -- or any Democrat, for that matter -- over their administration's response to a disaster, not of their own making.


Did Clinton get a lot of shit for not showing up in Oklahoma City for 4 days after the bombing?

[The Ressurrected One]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?

2) When have Republicans, Conservatives, or anyone else, ever attacked a Democratic administration for their response to a disaster?

[The Ressurrected One]

Did Clinton get a lot of shit for not showing up in Oklahoma City for 4 days after the bombing?
Maybe...but, I'm talking about the response to the disaster. If all Bush were getting was some grief about when he decided to visit the disaster site, I doubt we'd even be having this discussion.

And, if this had been a terrorist attack (as was the Murrah building bombing), I doubt the federal government would have acted as they did -- seeing as there would have been no question about invoking the Insurrection Act.

The fact is, FEMA and the whole of the Bush administration are being blamed for whatever failures are real or perceived in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. And, quite frankly, I've yet to see a supported charge of incompetence on the part of any federal response to this disaster.

Yes, Mike Brown fluffed his resume and he probably deserves to be canned for that but, no one has shown me one shred of proof that FEMA fumbled their responsibilities in their response to Hurrican Katrina.

[The Ressurrected One]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?

2) When have Republicans, Conservatives, or anyone else, ever attacked a Democratic administration for their response to a disaster?
Tick frickin' tock...

[Clandestino]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?

2) When have Republicans, Conservatives, or anyone else, ever attacked a Democratic administration for their response to a disaster?

1) FEMA did not go into the area and just call martial law without regard to the state's right. the states aren't supposed to have any rights.

[The Ressurrected One]

1) FEMA did not go into the area and just call martial law without regard to the state's right. the states aren't supposed to have any rights.
No, seriously. I've been accused of not engaging in a serious debate of the issue and, these are the two principal points over which there seems to be contention.

I'd like an opportunity to address other than empty rhetoric. There have been no specific allegations of malfeasance made against FEMA and, to my recollection, I cannot think of a time when a Democratic administration was so resoundingly, relentlessly harangued, by the opposition and the media, in the middle of a major American crisis. I really think this defines a new low in political discourse.

[hussker]

No, seriously. I've been accused of not engaging in a serious debate of the issue and, these are the two principal points over which there seems to be contention.

I'd like an opportunity to address other than empty rhetoric. There have been no specific allegations of malfeasance made against FEMA and, to my recollection, I cannot think of a time when a Democratic administration was so resoundingly, relentlessly harangued, by the opposition and the media, in the middle of a major American crisis. I really think this defines a new low in political discourse.

It is because the voices that speak now in majority did not bother to go push a lever in 2000 or 2004. Don't worry, they will not in 2008 either. Especially in Louisiana where they have no more buses to move people to the polls. TACKY BAD BUT TRUE, I KNOW.

[hussker]

Ahhh, all those buses...

[Bandit2981]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?

2) When have Republicans, Conservatives, or anyone else, ever attacked a Democratic administration for their response to a disaster?

I think both local and federal governments should shoulder the responsibility(I hate the word "blame" concerning a disaster like this), so i'll attempt to answer your questions.

1) FEMA was mismanaged from the moment someone like Brown was appointed to head the organization, NO crisis or emergency credentials at all. Many of their decisions were suspect as well, such as turning away firefighters, the Red Cross from delivering food, and Wal Mart trucks from delivering supplies. As for the Bush factor, it's not entirely his fault, but placing people to head and run FEMA based on loyalty and past friendships, instead of qualified individuals, got the snowball rolling down the hill.

2) It's not about party per se, it's about being told over and over how prepared we are in the event another attack or catastrophe were to take place, and that not being the case. The republican's biggest talking point during the elections was how they were best equipped to handle and deal with an event like this were it ever to happen again. There's nothing wrong with wanting accountability(not blame) for a federal issue.

[Clandestino]

1992 Chiles fucked up big time. He didn't know he had to formally request FEMA assistance. Took days for FEMA to get in. All governors should know by now that you must request FEMA assistance.

FL learned and they now have the best program in place for dealing with FEMA. Louisiana was ill prepared. You don't hear the other states bitching about FEMA.

[hussker]

I think both local and federal governments should shoulder the responsibility(I hate the word "blame" concerning a disaster like this), so i'll attempt to answer your questions.

1) FEMA was mismanaged from the moment someone like Brown was appointed to head the organization, NO crisis or emergency credentials at all. Many of their decisions were suspect as well, such as turning away firefighters, the Red Cross from delivering food, and Wal Mart trucks from delivering supplies. As for the Bush factor, it's not entirely his fault, but placing people to head and run FEMA based on loyalty and past friendships, instead of qualified individuals, got the snowball rolling down the hill.

2) It's not about party per se, it's about being told over and over how prepared we are in the event another attack or catastrophe were to take place, and that not being the case. The republican's biggest talking point during the elections was how they were best equipped to handle and deal with an event like this were it ever to happen again. There's nothing wrong with wanting accountability(not blame) for a federal issue.

To revisit a point, it all began at the local level. A proactive Mayor three days before the Act of God and Four days before the flood is great for TV and such, but leadership failed due to lack of follow-up, essential at any level of leadership. There was ZERO follow up to ensure there were appropriate reactors to the proactivity. Oh, and that the resources were properly used...all those buses, hmmmm.

[Bandit2981]

To revisit a point, it all began at the local level
Actually, it all began in the ocean.

[hussker]

Actually, it all began in the ocean.
Please try to stick with the human element. I am confident we know where it all began super-naturally. Unless you are going to blame Bush and Barbour like Junior Kennedy did (the political activist, not the former mediocre baseball player).

[Bandit2981]

Please try to stick with the human element. I am confident we know where it all began super-naturally. Unless you are going to blame Bush and Barbour like Junior Kennedy did (the political activist, not the former mediocre baseball player).
Bush isn't doing the environment any favors, however I believe in climate change, but I think its a cyclical cycle the earth naturally goes through, and there's not much we can do about it but buckle up for the ride because it will get a lot worse. Read into the earth's magnetic pole reversal thats taking place, its very interesting and in the past when its happened there were also dramatic weather changes.

[hussker]

Bush isn't doing the environment any favors, however I believe in climate change, but I think its a cyclical cycle the earth naturally goes through, and there's not much we can do about it but buckle up for the ride because it will get a lot worse. Read into the earth's magnetic pole reversal thats taking place, its very interesting and in the past when its happened there were also dramatic weather changes.

Yeah, I guess the next point you will have is that Bush killed the Dinosaurs just about the same time Gore was trying to save them... I knew it would not be long before the environmentalist view reared its head to point at a person via an Act of God.

Thanks Mr. Kennedy, duly noted...NEXT

[The Ressurrected One]

I think both local and federal governments should shoulder the responsibility(I hate the word "blame" concerning a disaster like this), so i'll attempt to answer your questions.

1) FEMA was mismanaged from the moment someone like Brown was appointed to head the organization, NO crisis or emergency credentials at all.
Well, that would have to be proved out in a mismanaged response. I mean, after all, would not his apparent incompetence have to translate into actual incompetence for that to be an issue? Agency administrators come from all walks of life and backgrounds. But, let's look at your assertions...

Many of their decisions were suspect as well, such as turning away firefighters,
Turning away firefighters that were not integrated into the response team, unable to communicate with other responders, and very likely to become a resource drain when they became mired without resources, water, fuel, food, etc...

the Red Cross from delivering food,
The only example of this, of which I'm aware, was the result of Governor Blanco denying preposition supplies from being delivered by the Red Cross to the Superdome and Convention Center because -- as I understand it -- they were afraid people would more likely stay in the city instead of evacuating, which is what they wanted.

and Wal Mart trucks from delivering supplies.
I'm not aware of this...

As for the Bush factor, it's not entirely his fault, but placing people to head and run FEMA based on loyalty and past friendships, instead of qualified individuals, got the snowball rolling down the hill.
FEMA, indeed, the entire federal response entity, has performed as expected and, in many cases, way beyond expectations. Your anectdotal situations aside, the casualty count appears to be much, much lower than first "histrionic" predictions warned. Indeed, most of the lingering problems appear to stem from situations created by decisions made at local and state levels.

2) It's not about party per se, it's about being told over and over how prepared we are in the event another attack or catastrophe were to take place, and that not being the case. The republican's biggest talking point during the elections was how they were best equipped to handle and deal with an event like this were it ever to happen again. There's nothing wrong with wanting accountability(not blame) for a federal issue.
Again, the federal government responded as planned and WAS prepared. An enemy attack will be treated much differently by the federal government due to the distinction to be made between natural disasters and enemy attacks.

Natural disasters are a local and State issue first.

And this is about party. The Democrats have stooped to levels never seen in politics on this one.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that would have to be proved out in a mismanaged response.Or his being replaced....

[hussker]

Well, that would have to be proved out in a mismanaged response. I mean, after all, would not his apparent incompetence have to translate into actual incompetence for that to be an issue? Agency administrators come from all walks of life and backgrounds. But, let's look at your assertions...

Turning away firefighters that were not integrated into the response team, unable to communicate with other responders, and very likely to become a resource drain when they became mired without resources, water, fuel, food, etc...

The only example of this, of which I'm aware, was the result of Governor Blanco denying preposition supplies from being delivered by the Red Cross to the Superdome and Convention Center because -- as I understand it -- they were afraid people would more likely stay in the city instead of evacuating, which is what they wanted.

I'm not aware of this...

FEMA, indeed, the entire federal response entity, has performed as expected and, in many cases, way beyond expectations. Your anectdotal situations aside, the casualty count appears to be much, much lower than first "histrionic" predictions warned. Indeed, most of the lingering problems appear to stem from situations created by decisions made at local and state levels.

Again, the federal government responded as planned and WAS prepared. An enemy attack will be treated much differently by the federal government due to the distinction to be made between natural disasters and enemy attacks.

Natural disasters are a local and State issue first.

And this is about party. The Democrats have stooped to levels never seen in politics on this one.

DITTO...nice post

[Bandit2981]

Yeah, I guess the next point you will have is that Bush killed the Dinosaurs just about the same time Gore was trying to save them... I knew it would not be long before the environmentalist view reared its head to point at a person via an Act of God.

Thanks Mr. Kennedy, duly noted...NEXT
Not sure what Bush has to do with anything I said, but whatever i guess.

[Bandit2981]

Natural disasters are a local and State issue first
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bush declare a state of emergency for LA 2 days before Katrina hit, allowing FEMA to take whatever course of action it wanted?

[hussker]

Not sure what Bush has to do with anything I said, but whatever i guess.

Your statement could have been "WE" are not doing the environment any favors, but you, like so many, want to point at one person. There are about 6 billion we could point at as the one presently. In fact, lets just go back and blame those that sparked the industrial revolution.

Act of God, not act of human. That was my only point. I suppose I was being proactive to defend against another diatribe. My apologies for misunderstanding as it seems I did.

[The Ressurrected One]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bush declare a state of emergency for LA 2 days before Katrina hit,
Yes.

...allowing FEMA to take whatever course of action it wanted?
No. The Governor of Louisiana still had administrative control over the response...including the use of any federal resources brought to bear or made available through the President's declaration.

[hussker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bush declare a state of emergency for LA 2 days before Katrina hit, allowing FEMA to take whatever course of action it wanted?

Nope...still falls under the realm of the Local and State leadership. In fact, there is an off camera (or at least she thought it was) of the Governor questioning whether she should have called in the Feds at that point. She had just finished another news conference denouncing the Feds for not coming in when she called, when in fact, she had not. And, surprisingly, that clip was on CNN this morning. That was more shocking than the entire issue!

[The Ressurrected One]

Or his being replaced....
No doubt, his detractors won. But, what was to be gained by staying and fighting? After all, he (not the Democrats) realized the attention paid to him was taking away from the efforts being made by his employees. Good call on his part, I'd say.

[ChumpDumper]

No doubt, his detractors won. But, what was to be gained by staying and fighting? After all, he (not the Democrats) realized the attention paid to him was taking away from the efforts being made by his employees. Good call on his part, I'd say.He recalled himself three days ago?

[The Ressurrected One]

He recalled himself three days ago?
By resigning today. I concede, the opposition suceeded in getting him taken off the job...a job that was being executed superbly. Astounding. I hope the left and the media are happy.

I promise, and we'll have to wait a few decades, but history is not going to be kind to the Democratic Party and liberals, in general, for their behavior over the past two or three decades.

Really, what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurricane Katrina?

[hussker]

No doubt, his detractors won. But, what was to be gained by staying and fighting? After all, he (not the Democrats) realized the attention paid to him was taking away from the efforts being made by his employees. Good call on his part, I'd say.
I do have to say that watching Brown's non-verbals during Bush "praising him" in front of the media gave the impression that his (Brown's) mind set was "boy, I am so out of it in this arena". Bush was supporting his man, but the man sure lacked that look of confidence. He really did look like a fish out of water, and more like the "Brownie" he was being referred to as. Just what I saw in his demeanor.

[The Ressurrected One]

I do have to say that watching Brown's non-verbals during Bush "praising him" in front of the media gave the impression that his (Brown's) mind set was "boy, I am so out of it in this arena". Bush was supporting his man, but the man sure lacked that look of confidence. He really did look like a fish out of water, and more like the "Brownie" he was being referred to as. Just what I saw in his demeanor.
That may be and, frankly, I wasn't impressed with his early briefings either...but, the fact remains, there is no evidence FEMA flubbed their response. In fact, all indicators are the federal response, under the organization of FEMA, have exceeded all expectations.

[hussker]

That may be and, frankly, I wasn't impressed with his early briefings either...but, the fact remains, there is no evidence FEMA flubbed their response. In fact, all indicators are the federal response, under the organization of FEMA, have exceeded all expectations.

Agreed, I am not slamming FEMA, just Brown from his appearance and non-verbals. We have all, at one time or another, had bosses or supervisors who may not have been the BEST for the job, but the company still succeeded.

[ChumpDumper]

All the federal government had to do was declare the situation an "incident of national significance" and they could've run the show top to bottom at any time.

[hussker]

All the federal government had to do was declare the situation an "incident of national significance" and they could've run the show top to bottom at any time.
Simplistic answers to complicated questions, Thank you President ChumpDumper for enlightening all of us in the post. Please get me involved with your campaign and a nice new set of those hindsight specs you are sporting. I am sure TRO might like a set too.

[The Ressurrected One]

All the federal government had to do was declare the situation an "incident of national significance" and they could've run the show top to bottom at any time.
And trample all over the 10th Amendment to the Constitution...nice call your majesty.

[ChumpDumper]

Simplistic answers to complicated questionsI'm not saying things would've been any better, but this "the locals have to ask for every specific thing" from the federal government seems a bit realistic in the face of this event. When the President urged a manditory evacuation of a metro area of 1.3 million and more along the coast, it pretty much rises to the level of "incident of national significance". Simply.

[ChumpDumper]

And trample all over the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.It's not like there aren't provisions for this. Just look for the term on the dhs site. I can understand how you feel political considerations take precedence over human life, I simply don't agree with it.

[The Ressurrected One]

It's not like there aren't provisions for this. Just look for the term on the dhs site. I can understand how you feel political considerations take precedence over human life, I simply don't agree with it.
Okay, next time there's a riot in Los Angeles, we'll send in the Army. Deal?

The Governor of Louisiana was resistant to relinquishing any control. The President did consider invoking the Insurrection Act to wrest control from Blanco but, didn't. He was damned if he did and damne if he didn't anyway.

And, with a death toll likely to be well under 1,000 -- most of whom died during the storm or from causes that would not have been remedied by a quicker federal response, I'd say he made the right call. Now, if Blanco and Nager just hadn't boo hooed and cussed their way through their State and City's most significant crisis, we'd all have been better off.

[ChumpDumper]

Okay, next time there's a riot in Los Angeles, we'll send in the Army. Deal?You don't understand, the status has now been declared for Katrina. It's not like that power isn't being used.
The Governor of Louisiana was resistant to relinquishing any control. The President did consider invoking the Insurrection Act to wrest control from Blanco but, didn't. He was damned if he did and damne if he didn't anyway.So politics won out. Ok.
And, with a death toll likely to be well under 1,000 -- most of whom died during the storm or from causes that would not have been remedied by a quicker federal response, I'd say he made the right call.You seem to be so satisfied with so many deaths. Kind of makes your pleas for the sole brain-dead woman ring hollow.
Now, if Blanco and Nager just hadn't boo hooed and cussed their way through their State and City's most significant crisis, we'd all have been better off.Even if they were competent this is way beyond their capabilities.

[jochhejaam]

I don't know how some of you can act liked your satisfied to the FED reaction to this crisis. Much more could have been done, much more should have been done. As I posted before in the They Died of Contempt thread there was a ship called the USS Baaton sailing off the coast of NO which had a 1000 bed hospital and was capable of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water per day. None of these assets were utilized by the FEDS, but people would rather talk about 7,000 imaginary NG troops between Baton Rouge and NO that the Governor supposedly never utilized. They fell for the spin about Iraq, now they are falling for the spin about NO.

The U.S.S. Bataan certainly played a role in saving lives dan. Does that bother you?


“We have jumped in feet first to provide as much assistance as we can,” said Capt. Nora Tyson, Bataan 's commanding officer


By JOSN Joanne DeVera
September 01, 2005Photo by PHAN Jeremy Grisham
USS BATAAN Assisting in Hurricane Katrina Relief Efforts GULF OF MEXICO

– The multi-purpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) began service Tuesday night and continued on Wednesday as the Maritime Disaster Service Coordinator for the U.S. Navy's role in the Hurricane Katrina search and rescue efforts in the immediate New Orleans area. Embarked helicopter squadrons have moved over 200 stranded personnel in two days of flying.

Crewmembers from Helicopter Sea Control Squadron 28 based out of Naval Station Norfolk and Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron 15 based out of Naval Air Station Corpus Christi launched three MH-53 Sea Dragons and two MH-60 Knight Hawks Tuesday night and again at daylight Wednesday to help out where they are needed.

The crews flew off Tuesday night towards New Orleans and were tasked by the on-scene rescue coordinators. “Our first mission was to provide food and water and to take some people to a safer haven and to help with the levee by providing sandbags,” said AS2(AW/NAC) Johnny Ramirez, MH-53 Aircrewman for HM-15. “We weren't able to complete our assigned mission Tuesday night because it got too dark and it was too risky to land anywhere with all of the water and power lines. Instead, we just flew Tuesday night to survey the area.”

On Wednesday, a crew from HM-15 assisted with lifting numerous stranded citizens in a very short period of time. “My crew and I airlifted nearly 100 people from the roof of a building and onto a field where ambulances and busses were waiting for them,” said LCDR David Hopper, detachment Officer in Charge of HM-15. “Ten of those who we rescued couldn't even walk; my crewmen had to carry them.”

The only downfall for all the crews is that they can't save everyone but they know saving one life is worth it.

“It's rewarding to help our fellow Americans,” Hopper said. “The crew knows that these people don't have a home to go back to. That is our motivation.”

One of the missions of the MH-60 aircraft is search and rescue. HSC-28 personnel have rescued 71 people in their first two days of operation, seven in the first 30 minutes. HSC-28 has three crews and two aircraft and is alternating flight and crew rest time.

“At first it was frustrating because it took so long to get involved,” said pilot Lt. Eric Lowry of HSC-28. “Now that we have started, we don't want to stop.”

The crew of the MH-60 also ran out of daylight as it was difficult to see stranded personnel on the rooftops in a city that has limited electricity. For Lt j.g. Jeremy Browning seeing the destruction from Katrina is like seeing something out of a movie. “Everything just looked like somebody threw a bunch of dog houses in a swimming pool.”

Commander, Joint Task Force Katrina, Lt. Gen. Russell Honore, embarked Bataan Wednesday for a few hours to survey the ship's capabilities.

T he area stretching from Louisiana to Florida has announced a public health emergency a nd the President of the United States said that the recovery of the Gulf Coast could take years.

“We have jumped in feet first to provide as much assistance as we can,” said Capt. Nora Tyson, Bataan 's commanding officer. “Every Sailor on this ship will do everything they can to do to help. We'll be prepared to have this ship filled up with people. If they need to sleep in the hangar bay because this is the only dry ground, then so be it.”

Bataan 's involvement in the humanitarian assistance operations is an effort led by the Department of Defense in conjunction with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).



Public Affairs note: We will keep our family and friends informed of our efforts if we are needed. Check the Bataan website often for the latest news on our hurricane relief efforts.

[whottt]

All the federal government had to do was declare the situation an "incident of national significance" and they could've run the show top to bottom at any time.




Where the fuck do you guys get this shit from? The Federal Government could have never run the entire show...Why do ya'll not fucking understand this? Do you idiots even understand why we have a constitution? Because we didn't want the type of government you want...that's what we were running away from.


He could have Federalized the Guard and that's it...he couldn't have empowered them to act as peace officers...he could have not have controlled the State and Local Police or Fire Fighters.

That declaration does nothing of the kind. I know this without ever even having heard of that declaration before or having any clue of it's definition...But I know what it can't do...and it can't give the President the power to act as the Soverign Leader of the State of Louisiana or the Mayor of New Orleans.

IOW...it would not have given them authority over the Local/State Police, Firefighters or the Louisiana Guard(as Law enforcement officers)....IE, the people who failed.

Link to where it says otherwise?

Hint...it'll be in the constitution if it exists, fucktard.


Anyone who primarily blames the Fed and claims they are acting in a bipartisan fashion when doing so...is either lying about their bipartisanship...or just plain ole ignorant of the Constitution of the United State of America and the purpose it serves.

The blame for this tragedy from a Governmental standpoint is to be doled out in direct proportion to their proximity to the disaster...The closer they were to it...the more they failed(this is not toally a general rule, in this case it is based on the actual failures as well)...and the more blame they deserve.

Mayor and Local Gov are blamees #1.
Govenor and State Gov are blamees #2.
President and Federal are blamees #3.

In that order.

The Mayor is a coward, an idiot, and incompetent.
The Governor is a powertripping incompetent.
And the President was a flat out idiot for trusting them to handle this, no matter what their authority...but he does not have the power you guys think he does...regardless.

The Federal Goverment does not even have authority over the Red Cross...much less the Governor of LA.


And no Chump...the Fed is not in charge of everything now...The Governor is...for the 1 billionth time.

Go ahead and run with all the Neocon shit...I'd rather be accused of being partisan than be stupid.

[whottt]

The only way they Fed could have acted in a law enforcement sense is to declare martial law, yet....


Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.

So what we had here was a failure of the peace keeping forces...but at no time were the city and local governments out of commission...in Baton Rouge...yes...out of commission...no...there was never any point at which the Fed had the circumstances to declare martial law.

IOW...while the security forces were in the toilet...what was the Fed supposed to do with regards to rescuing and feeding the evacuees?

Stand there and get shot? Open fire on a few select gun toting individuals in a crowd of 30,000 people? Work security? Something they were not authorized to do...something they are generally not authorized to do even if the Govenor had wanted it?

You had dual forces at work here....the security forces...under the control of the Govenor...and the Federal Rescue Forces, under the control of the FED...actually, you still have that...only Honare pretty much started kicking anyones ass that got in his way...

Once the security forces failed(shit like 500 cops quitting, the rest being left without leadership, and food or water, and wondering if their families were alive...and not enough guardsmen in place to maintain security, like when one of them got shot at the Superdome)...it seriously fucked up what the Fed had the responsibility to do, not to mention the levees breaking after the storm, and way more people staying than expected...it required them to do something they were not planning on having to do...something they were not authorized to do...

That is why the blame must begin the local level and work outward. And anyone that doubts where the authority lies...they need to ,#1. Go look up the definition of the word Federal as it apllies to the US Govt and #2. Go read the Constitution.

[whottt]

That Govenor had 5000-8000 troops should could have brought in to supply food, water, DRIVE BUSSES OR AT LEAST MOVE THEM, communicatons equipment, aid the mayor in supplying the cops with food and water, moving their faimilies out of the city, set up a base of operations within the city, set up a temporary jail....

They did none of that...they didn't even set the New Orleans PD up to be able to feed themselves...they had the authority to do all of that...and they damn sure had the supplies to do it..and the US Govt gave them the money to do it with...they did none of it. How can anyone say the majority of the blame does not lie with them...it's their city, their state, they are supposed to know those areas better than the Fed...which is based some 2000 miles away. The Fed has the entire country to worry about, the State only has the State to worry about, and the city...etc. The Fed is not designed or authorized to act or assume the responsiblities of State and Local Govts. Absolute and total incompetence and indifference at the Local and State levels..

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0724.xml To wit:
The Department of Homeland Security has declared this an Incident of National Significance, the first ever use of this designation under the new National Response Plan. The National Response Plan, which was stood up earlier this year, gives the Department of Homeland Security the lead responsibility to coordinate federal response and recovery efforts. The plan is designed to bring together all federal resources to increase our ability to quickly get relief to those who need it most.See skippy, that means that overwhelmed and incompetent local governments don't have to ask for every specific type of aid. I should have been more specific as to what that meant. I don't know if it means the sexual harrassment training of rescue workers would've happened any faster though -- gotta have your priorities straight.

[Clandestino]

yes, federal, but that doesn't mean they can trample state's right.. it coordinates the federal resources.

[MannyIsGod]

The buses were already IN the city before the hurricane hit. They were actually THERE. The local government had control enough of them to release their use immediatly. No one was holding them from using them. They simply weren't used.
You still need drivers, gas, and the cordination to use them. I don't know whether it was possible or not, but neither do you.

However, a federal government response in a stronger manner is something I expect, and if we can't do it we better well develop the capability instead of jacking around in far off places. Developing a capable diaster management and response is something that we need and will save far more lives than anything overseas will.

[MannyIsGod]

The state officials fucked up, but the feds fucked up by not federalizing the NG or by invoking the inserrection act in order to take control fo the situation. Department of Homeland Secruity my ass.

[whottt]

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0724.xml To wit:See skippy, that means that overwhelmed and incompetent local governments don't have to ask for every specific type of aid. I should have been more specific as to what that meant. I don't know if it means the sexual harrassment training of rescue workers would've happened any faster though -- gotta have your priorities straight.




lead responsibility to coordinate

Now go find up what Posse Comitatus is...Go find out what the Stafford Act is...and then go show me the section of the constitution where it gives the President the power to authorize the National Guard to enforce State or City Law or the Army to act as Law Enforcement or to command local and state police forces.

[whottt]

The state officials fucked up, but the feds fucked up by not federalizing the NG or by invoking the inserrection act in order to take control fo the situation. Department of Homeland Secruity my ass.

On what grounds could he have legitimately invoked the insurrection act? The Hurricane being rebellious? The failure of the local and state forces?

[whottt]

But don't get me wrong...I agree he fucked up by not absolutely, totally, and thoroughly stripping the power from the incompetent leadership of New Orleans and Louisiana...I just want you guys to realize that he never did it, all of the time...instead of just when it suits you...and he still had severely limited powers.

[RandomGuy]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?




OOOOHHHH you tempted the wrath of a guy that has been called the "human Google"

You asked for it apologista:

Like holding up medical help? (http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary%5C32074.html)

When FEMA was combined into Homeland Security, it lost both standing and focus. The emphasis was shifted to combating terrorism. And in July, FEMA lost its role of working with states and localities to plan for disasters.
(http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/12590126.htm)

Hurricanes won't stop targeting the Atlantic and Gulf states just because foreign terrorists have the nation in their crosshairs. Yet FEMA's budget has been cut each year since 2003. Its staff is down by 500, resulting in the loss of one of three emergency management teams. Local governments, which rely on FEMA when a natural disaster hits, warned that the agency's services were becoming thin. Little attention was paid.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/editorials/story/2789900p-9229276c.html

[RandomGuy]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

1) Precisely what did FEMA do wrong in their response to Hurrican Katrina?



Actually the best bit was from another bulletin board.

On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.

In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.

Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.

And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."

"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"

"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"

However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....

Just my .02

Ride Safe,
Ken


http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187

[RandomGuy]

Okay, for the serious posters in here, I'll re-post the two questions I'd like the president's detractors to address:

2) When have Republicans, Conservatives, or anyone else, ever attacked a Democratic administration for their response to a disaster?

I will get on to this after I am done with class today. Do not doubt that I can EASILY find an example of Republicans critisizing a democratic president for his response to a natural disaster.

You have asked for a difficult task:

I will need to pull out of periodicals the opinion sections from Clinton, Carter, Johnson, and further. It might take a trip to the library, as most of US history happened before the Internet (honest!!) but if you are foolish enough to think that no conservative has ever bitched about the way a Democratic president has responded to a natural disaster, you will be dissappointed.

If you still stand behind this niave assertion, I will do so, because I am the type of nerd who likes calling hacks on their bullshit. Let me know, and I will be out of my financial accounting class at about 9:30pm or so. I will have to tuck my 2 year old in, but will be happy to give you a couple hours at the TxState library after that.

(edited a typo)

[RandomGuy]

...or, you can admit you are wrong, and that conservative shit doesn't smell like roses.

Both sides play a political game, and if you think that Bush is somehow less at fault for his administration's f*** ups just because you agree with him/his party politically, you need some remedial lessons in critical thinking, as most conservatives do.

[The Ressurrected One]

Actually the best bit was from another bulletin board.

On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.

In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.

Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.

And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."

"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"

"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"

However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....

Just my .02

Ride Safe,
Ken


http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187

I'm sure he sourced and corroborated these anectdotes. I'm having difficulty finding any - non-blog or forum - reference to the even the first allegation about airboats from Florida. There are plenty of stories about Florida sending them to help and about airboats being used in rescues...uh...Mr. Google.

[whottt]

Actually the best bit was from another bulletin board.

On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.

In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.

Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.

And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."

"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"

"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"

However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....

Just my .02

Ride Safe,
Ken


http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187


For the 1,034,567,678,987,567 time...the Govenor is in charge of the relief effort...still. If you want to blame Bush for not doing everything in his power to alter that situtation then do so...but just realize the Fed doesn't have the authority in this situation over anything but the Federal Response and they are serving in an assist and support capacity.

And as you can see by Broussard's comments...he felt it was more important for the failed and utterly incompetent state and local failures to be in charge of communications than it was the Federal Govt...



Realize it....

[The Ressurrected One]

An Intel analyst basing conclusions on heresay from a bulletin board? What would your peers say?

There are forums out there claiming the ACOE bombed the levees and that blacks were eating corpses in New Orleans...yeah, reliable source.