Mike Brown Out?

[1369]

Saw on CNN's webpage that he's resigned as director from FEMA. Anyone else heard this?

[Nbadan]

It would appear per CNN and MSNBC, that Mike Brown has resigned.

[boutons]

He was dead meat, anyway.
Thanks for not pocketing anymore salary.

[Vashner]

The new guy...

http://www.fema.gov/about/bios/paulison.shtm

[Nbadan]

There are some reports that W didn't even know Brown was gone, but appointed a new FEMA director none-the-less...

He didn't even know about it:

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_brown)

The president ducked questions about Brown's resignation. "Maybe you know something I don't know. I've been working," the president said to reporters on an inspection tour of damage in Gulfport, Miss. Bush said he planned to talk with Brown's boss, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, from Air Force One on the flight back to Washington.
-----

Yet he managed to pick a new one:

Alertnet (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N12503695.htm)

Bush picks Paulison as acting FEMA head
12 Sep 2005 20:56:42 GMT

Source: Reuters

WASHINGTON, Sept 12 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Monday named David Paulison, a top official in the Homeland Security Department, to replace Michael Brown on an acting basis as head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Andrew Card's later clarification:



Brown, who said he last talked to Bush five or six days ago, said the resignation was his idea. He spoke Saturday to White House chief of staff Andrew Card, who did not request his departure, according to Brown.

"I'm turning in my resignation today," Brown said. "I think it's in the best interest of the agency and the best interest of the president to do that and get the media focused on the good things that are going on, instead of me."

Shortly after Brown was recalled to Washington last week, officials close to the FEMA director said he would probably resign. They said that even before Katrina, Brown had been planning on leaving the administration late this fall to go into the private sector.

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_brown)

[boutons]

Paulison is yet another shrub political hack/crony?
or is he a professional, experienced emergency manager like Allen?

[SpursWoman]

Maybe they've been planning on sending Brown on a "different career trajectory" (best quote ever re: getting canned) for a couple of weeks now and already had someone picked out, but he resigned before he got asked to.

Not that big of a deal, IMO. I'm sure there were some calls made after that interview, if he honestly hadn't yet been informed of Brown's resignation.

[Vashner]

It was more of a "have your resume on my desk tomorrow" kind of thing...

He got fucking fired.. just people have to keep spinning stuff...

like when WOAI spun that guy.. what's his name.. argh it's in another recent thread..

He said mexicans should not roll there R's and next day was gone...

[j-6]

Paulison is yet another shrub political hack/crony?
or is he a professional, experienced emergency manager like Allen?


His emergency management experience includes Hurricane Andrew and the crash of ValuJet Flight 592.

Before joining FEMA, Mr. Paulison, who has 30 years of fire rescue services experience, was chief of the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Department. In that position, he oversaw 1,900 personnel with a $200 million operating budget and a $70 million capital budget. He also oversaw the county's emergency management office.

Sounds like a nice upgrade from Brownie.

[Vashner]

Bush needs to do a staff review again and replace any other slackers before something else hits the fan. And give Chartov something to eat.. dude looks like a walking skeleton...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Quit being such an ass about everything boutons.

From his bio (had you bothered to look)


Before joining FEMA, Mr. Paulison, who has 30 years of fire/rescue services experience, was chief of the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Department. In that position, he oversaw 1,900 personnel with a $200 million operating budget and a $70 million capital budget. He also oversaw the Dade County Emergency Management office.

He began his career as a rescue firefighter and rose through the ranks of rescue lieutenant commander, district chief of operations, division chief, assistant chief and then deputy director for administration before becoming the Miami-Dade Fire Chief. He is a certified paramedic and, as fire chief, oversaw the Miami-Dade Urban Search and Rescue Task Force. His emergency management experience includes Hurricane Andrew and the crash of ValuJet Flight 592. He is also past president of the International Association of Fire Chiefs.

So it appears he's risen through the ranks, so to speak. But flame away, it's what misguided, immature souls such as yourself do best.

[boutons]

Aggie,

I play the percentages, and shrub/Repug placing incompetent cronies, political hacks all over the government is the percentage shot.

The only reason Paulison is NOT a political hack is that the entire USA is now focused on the FEMA and the Repugs know they can't slip in political hack into that job now.

[SpursWoman]

Aggie,

I play the percentages, and shrub/Repug placing incompetent cronies, political hacks all over the government is the percentage shot.

The only reason Paulison is NOT a political hack is that the entire USA is now focused on the FEMA and the Repugs know they can't slip in political hack into that job now.


I think that it's more of the fact that you didn't even bother to check out his bio before you implied otherwise. I'd go with information and facts that are available to me, not percentages. But then, I'm not a gambler.

And are you suggesting Republicans are the only ones that place their own in positions within the government with any given opportunity?

:lol

[The Ressurrected One]

Other than being unable to answer the lying, projected, rhetoric of blame from the left, no one has given me a concrete example of what FEMA did wrong in its response to Hurrican Katrina.

Give me one. Just one.

We're now finding out that New Orleans (or Orleans Parish, I believe) received $18 million dollars from the Bush administration feds to plan for just such an event. Money they spent on drills -- that, by the way -- didn't involved federal resources. A 40 page disaster response plan was formulated from this money; that did include the drowned buses but, again, not federal resources.

Read the disaster plan, if you can find it. Louisiana promptly removed the plan from their website after it became apparent they didn't follow a frickin' sentence in the plan.

[RandomGuy]

Where is Mr. Brown?

Mr. Brown is out of town...

---Dr. Suess
Hop on Pop


Maybe Bush will give him a medal like he did the guys who f***ed up Iraq.

[boutons]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/sc/2005/sc050912.gif

[The Ressurrected One]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/sc/2005/sc050912.gif
Still, nothing about FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina.

[The Ressurrected One]

uh..they didn't do anything WRONG


they were just a..little late
How so? There were there before the State requested them and they were ready to go on the two ocassions their assistance was refused by Governor Blanco. They weren't late, they just weren't requested...and, contrary to popular lefty beliefs, the State have the right to manage or, in this case, mismanage their disasters however they see fit.

[The Ressurrected One]

and when they got there they didn't do shit for 2 days

(according to a man in new orleans)
^--whom i was speaking with on the phone for about a week
Okay, when did you "man in new orleans" start counting those two days and, was "your man in new orleans" omnipresent or something because, well, isn't it just possible he wasn't where FEMA was?

Because FEMA was preposition, waiting on the Governors, in both Denton, Texas and Jackson, Mississippi, well before the storm made landfall.

Do tell us more about your "man in new orleans" experiences...I'm intrigued.

[RandomGuy]

Other than being unable to answer the lying, projected, rhetoric of blame from the left, no one has given me a concrete example of what FEMA did wrong in its response to Hurrican Katrina.

Give me one. Just one.



Like holding up help? (http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary%5C32074.html)

[RandomGuy]

When FEMA was combined into Homeland Security, it lost both standing and focus. The emphasis was shifted to combating terrorism. And in July, FEMA lost its role of working with states and localities to plan for disasters.

(http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/12590126.htm)

[RandomGuy]

Hurricanes won't stop targeting the Atlantic and Gulf states just because foreign terrorists have the nation in their crosshairs. Yet FEMA's budget has been cut each year since 2003. Its staff is down by 500, resulting in the loss of one of three emergency management teams. Local governments, which rely on FEMA when a natural disaster hits, warned that the agency's services were becoming thin. Little attention was paid.

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/editorials/story/2789900p-9229276c.html

[Vashner]

And that was the DEMOCRATS that insisted DHS was formed and FEMA moved.. Lieberman sponsored and Hillary helped pushed it thru. Bush resisted DHS at first he wanted to just fix the CIA and FBI.

[ChumpDumper]

Is there a record of how members of Congress voted on DHS?

[RandomGuy]

And that was the DEMOCRATS that insisted DHS was formed and FEMA moved.. Lieberman sponsored and Hillary helped pushed it thru. Bush resisted DHS at first he wanted to just fix the CIA and FBI.

All of which was recommended by the senate committee that wanted to overhaul the US security response. Bi-partisan committee that is.

Puh-lease don't tell me that the GOP wasn't clapping for joy about looking like THEY were also doing something after 9-11...

[The Ressurrected One]

Is there a record of how members of Congress voted on DHS?
Yes. Every heard of the Congressional Record?

[RandomGuy]

Other than being unable to answer the lying, projected, rhetoric of blame from the left, no one has given me a concrete example of what FEMA did wrong in its response to Hurrican Katrina.

Give me one. Just one.




On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.

In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.

Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.

And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."

"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"

"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"

However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....

Just my .02

Ride Safe,
Ken


http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187

[ChumpDumper]

Yes. Every heard of the Congressional Record?So is there a record of who voted for the last pay raise, too?

How many Republicans voted for DHS?

[RandomGuy]

Careful what you wish for there, R.O.

[RandomGuy]

So is there a record of who voted for the last pay raise, too?

How many Republicans voted for DHS?

The real question is how many Republicans voted to balloon the federal budget deficit, but THAT is another thread...

[boutons]

FEMA officials said that the big mistake they made was not imagining the case where effectively ALL the first responders would be incapacitated. Like FEMA was only setup to handle "easy" catastrophes in their playbook. Sounds like FEMA was setup to backup the first responders and were flummoxed when the first repsonders weren't there.

Jerktoff used the word "mega-catastrophe" to suggest that Katrina was such a big motherfucking Whopper that FEMA's two hands couldn't handle it, let alone their bureaucratic brains imagine it.

FEMA admits there was considerable dithering by FEMA with lawyers and political operatives about the demarcations of federal/state/city responsibilities, legal implications, political conserations of doing whatever, like take initiative that the poor, corrupt, small NO/LA could be overwhelmed. I read where Fagin was also hesitating quite late, Sat or Sun, about evacuation orders because of legal liabilities.

The country is so fucking hog-tied by its 1 million lawyers, and 300 million lawyer wannabes, that common sense and timely action are damn near impossible. Nobody can do fucking anything because they're worried about getting sued. The lawyers really hold all the power and knowledge. Nobody knows WTF is going on without having a lawyer explain the legalties to them. ie, legalities and lawyer-think have become the primary reality that people subscribe to.

What we're seeing now is, with TRO and others here participating, is the Repug network of talking heads, Fox Cable, conservatinve consultants, lobbyists, political operatives, bloggers, etc set in motion the Rove fog machine to hide/deny all accountability at the (Repug) federal level, while slimming and pushing all accountability onto the NO/LA (democratic) level.

Shrub will probably give Brown a Medal of Freedom, since he no less worthy or less competent than "slam dunk" Tenet.

It may take awhile, which is also to Repug advantage, since attention spans are so short, but it seems there's enough pissed off, disappointed people that the truth, not the Repug fog, will come out eventually, and the feds will be a guilty of fucking up as much as NO and LA.

[Nbadan]

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050908/horsey.gif

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050905/bors.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050908/streeter.gif

[RandomGuy]

Having pointed out what specific things FEMA got wrong at first, I would say that they got things rolling after the category 5 shit-storm hit them, and did rather well.

Too bad it took a humanitarian disaster to get things rolling.

[RandomGuy]

Nobody knows WTF is going on without having a lawyer explain the legalties to them. ie, legalities and lawyer-think have become the primary reality that people subscribe to.

....the truth, not the Repug fog, will come out eventually, and the feds will be a guilty of fucking up as much as NO and LA.

I would point out that the administration has had 3 years since 9-11 to get this shit straight,and it is still f***ed up. Thank God it was something that people had a couple of days worth of warning about.

Could you imagine the extra loss of life had a meteor (or worse) nailed a major US city because of dithering?

This administration has demonstrated exactly what disengaged, disinterested, and mediocre leadership costs us.

[The Ressurrected One]

I would point out that the administration has had 3 years since 9-11 to get this shit straight,and it is still f***ed up. Thank God it was something that people had a couple of days worth of warning about.

Could you imagine the extra loss of life had a meteor (or worse) nailed a major US city because of dithering?
:lmao Hey, Einstein, a meteor would have given much more warning than did Katrina. But, you raise a valid point. Had Nagen and Blanco listened to the President on Saturday before the storm or, to NOAA on the Thursday before the storm, they could have implemented their 40 page emergency response plan that would have included utilizing those school buses to empty the city and no one would have died in New Orleans.

This administration has demonstrated exactly what disengaged, disinterested, and mediocre leadership costs us.
Surely, you're referring to the Blanco or Nagen administrations, right?

[The Ressurrected One]

On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.

In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.

Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.

And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."

"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"

"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"

However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....

Just my .02

Ride Safe,
Ken


http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187
How about something other than from a bikers forum, eh?

[Nbadan]

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050912/varvel.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050912/bors.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050906/dangle.gif

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW09-14-05.jpg

[RandomGuy]

:idiot Hey, Einstein, a meteor would have given much more warning than did Katrina. But, you raise a valid point. Had Nagen and Blanco listened to the President on Saturday before the storm or, to NOAA on the Thursday before the storm, they could have implemented their 40 page emergency response plan that would have included utilizing those school buses to empty the city and no one would have died in New Orleans.

Surely, you're referring to the Blanco or Nagen administrations, right?


Actually a meteor would have given LESS warning than Katrina, hence my point. Don't take my word for it, ask any astronomer. We have cataloged very very few of the the Near Earth Objects that threaten us. If you recall the Shumacher-Levy comets that punched Earth-sized holes in Jupiter, they were discovered by pure chance so that we had enough warning to watch them do their damage.

Most near earth objects are relatively dark, with a low albedo (reflectivity) and unless you are looking in the right place at the right time, BAMMMM!!!

Our solar system and it's environs is another reading hobby of mine. I would be willing to bet I know more than you do on this too, so before you step up, you better read up, punk.

[RandomGuy]

How about something other than from a bikers forum, eh?


It is a collection of anecdotal evidence supported by the first hand account given in the first post. I would put it up as pretty reliable if you had posted similar.

First you won't admit ANYTHING, then I find something, and you doubt a good faith effort. I realize intellectual honesty isn't something you practice much or are used to in these boards, but roll with it.

[boutons]

Jerktoff = Nosferatu!! :lol

[The Ressurrected One]

It is a collection of anecdotal evidence supported by the first hand account given in the first post.
Okay, here's what I found in the first post...



Well, shoes keep dropping in the hurricane relief fiasco. It always takes some kind of disaster to find out what kind of public officials have been elected. It's just like buying insurance. You never know how good it is until you have a claim. It doesn't matter how much money people save buying Geico if they screw you when it's time to pay off. Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin have their flaws as well. There were two hundred school buses in New Orleans that could have been used to evacuate people that are now just sitting in water butt hole deep to a tall Indian and are worthless. He was doing the loudest screaming on TV. When the ball is dropped, don't complain which way it bounces. Mike Brown, the momentary head of FEMA, turns out to have lied on his resume and is in the process of being removed. He was evidently a political appointee with no disaster emergency experience at all. Wow. There's going to be plenty of blame to go around.
Hmmm...nothing about where FEMA failed at anything. Glad he mentioned the busses though.

So, let's move to post number #3, also by Zixxer -- your "first hand accounter" -- in response to the question of what has FEMA done wrong, posed by another poster in that forum.



Where are you located? It took four days for helicopters to show up in New Orleans. That's FEMA. It doesn't take four days to get to New Orleans by helicopter from anywhere in the continental US.
There were federal agencies, The U.S. Coast Guard to be precise, who were slinging in water and MRE's BY HELICOPTER from the moment the wind subsided. I saw them flying around in the background in some of Monday's televised news accounts. Then, after the levees broke, the numbers were increased steadily. Some first person account.


I would put it up as pretty reliable if you had posted similar. Well, of course, that's your problem...you'll believe anything apparently.

First, you won't find me passing off forum posts as being verified fact. Second, That guy could be posting from Bangladesh for all you know...nothing in any of his posts establishes his location or his position to be in the know about squat.


First you won't admit ANYTHING,...
What's to admit? The federal government has executed the swifted, most efficient, most effective disaster response in the history of this country and you're nitpicking over dubious, unverified anecdotes that, even if true, don't come close to defining the scope and breadth, or the success, of the operation.


...then I find something, and you doubt a good faith effort. I realize intellectual honesty isn't something you practice much or are used to in these boards, but roll with it.
Boo hoo, I don't believe you...get over it.

So, why didn't you post the account of people resorting to cannibalism? It had as much corroboration as these accounts. Or, the story that the Army Corps of Engineers blew the levee? Huh? Those are floating around out there on the internet, told by persons who talked to people who were there when it happened...

And, what you did doesn't even approach intellectual honesty. You plucked a story from the web; from whence it came you did not know but, it supported your assumptions. Therefore, it's true.

So, you want to try out some real facts?

[The Ressurrected One]

Actually a meteor would have given LESS warning than Katrina, hence my point. Don't take my word for it, ask any astronomer.

We have cataloged very very few of the the Near Earth Objects that threaten us. If you recall the Shumacher-Levy comets that punched Earth-sized holes in Jupiter, they were discovered by pure chance so that we had enough warning to watch them do their damage.
I did. Okay, well, I didn't exactly ask an astronomer but, I did go to a verifiable web site to check your information...the University of Alabama Department of Physics and Astronomy. (Please note, this is not a forum for beginning bikers) Here's what I found.

http://crux.astr.ua.edu/gifimages/cometsl9_june93v.gif
This is a photograph of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 in a V-band image obtained 19 June 1993 with the Lowell Observatory 1.1-meter telescope. Seen about 13 months before Jupiter impact.

I also learned the comet was discovered in March of 1993...

Wow, you process information slowly if you think 13 to 17 months isn't much longer than several days.



Most near earth objects are relatively dark, with a low albedo (reflectivity) and unless you are looking in the right place at the right time, BAMMMM!!!

Our solar system and it's environs is another reading hobby of mine. I would be willing to bet I know more than you do on this too, so before you step up, you better read up, punk.
I'm guessing, (and please don't take this as an "ad hominem attack" because, well, it's based on your stupid answers in this thread), that with your grasp of astronomical phenomena, you have a similar position on global warming...alarmist and ill-informed by agendized "scientific" google finds.

Nice googling champ!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zixxer10
Where are you located? It took four days for helicopters to show up in New Orleans. That's FEMA. It doesn't take four days to get to New Orleans by helicopter from anywhere in the continental US.


What? Choppers were pulling people off roofs as soon as the winds dropped enough for it be safe. And that wasn't four days. If memory serves right it was Monday evening after the storm went through on Monday morning.

[The Ressurrected One]

What? Choppers were pulling people off roofs as soon as the winds dropped enough for it be safe. And that wasn't four days. If memory serves right it was Monday evening after the storm went through on Monday morning.
Memory serves you right AH.

[xrayzebra]

Dan has a really good friend in RandomGuy. And the name is relevent too. He
really is Random in his thoughts. Forgot he is an expert on the heavens.

Dan congratulations, your reading habits are really improving. Next thing you know
real books or the editorial page. Yeah they have comics there too.

[The Ressurrected One]

Still unanswered:


Other than being unable to answer the lying, projected, rhetoric of blame from the left, no one has given me a concrete example of what FEMA did wrong in its response to Hurrican Katrina.

Give me one. Just one.

[RandomGuy]

Okay, here's what I found in the first post...


Hmmm...nothing about where FEMA failed at anything. Glad he mentioned the busses though.



We are getting our wires crossed here. By "first post" I meant this URL

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary%5C32074.html

This URL is a first hand account that I will quote from and put a few things in bold so that there is no confusion.

Micki Singer

Singer is a member of the Moneta Rescue Squad.

A contingent of College of Health Science students and Moneta Rescue Squad members was sent to Baton Rouge/New Orleans Sept. 1 with one ambulance and two trailers loaded with supplies to ensure that the group was self-sufficient. We also carried water and food to be donated to refugee centers...

Although told to report for assignments at 5 a.m., few units were dispatched until 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. even though the crews were ready and anxious to get going and to be of help wherever they were needed...

At the New Orleans airport, one FEMA medical worker told me that he was exhausted and had triaged 1,200 refugees that day.

I asked why they didn't utilize the hundreds of volunteer emergency medical technicians who were all trained in triage protocols and was told that they could only use FEMA personnel!..

I feel that the lack of efficiency, organization, planning and utilization of resources by the government agencies involved in this disaster should be noted and addressed.

This total waste of personnel and resources was obscene, perhaps even criminal. Doctors and nurses arrived at the center and were still there hours and hours later, even though a 1,000-bed hospital had been reopened, with electricity restored and was ready to receive patients.

The local shelters were overwhelmed with medically compromised patients, while hundreds of ambulances and trained personnel were available to help with transport and care, and none were allowed to do so.


Is this first hand and specific enough for you?

[RandomGuy]

(((Quote: Originally Posted by Random Guy
I would put it up as pretty reliable if you had posted similar.)))

Well, of course, that's your problem...you'll believe anything apparently.

First, you won't find me passing off forum posts as being verified fact. Second, That guy could be posting from Bangladesh for all you know...nothing in any of his posts establishes his location or his position to be in the know about squat.



The listing of those accounts jives with many reports of wasted resources that I have seen on CNN and elsewhere in which the person was relaying FIRST HAND what they saw. The tone of almost all of these reports paints a similar picture: "Resource X either sat there for days unrused or simply was turned away."

Did resources get there quickly? Yes. FEMA did get SOME stuff there pretty damn quickly.

BUT

FEMA was quite simply not prepared for the scope of the disaster. Part of which was addressed in one of my other posts about the GOP controlled federal government cutting their budget on a yearly basis.

What extra help WAS available wasn't accounted for by FEMA and could have made a world of difference, HAD IT BEEN USED.

[RandomGuy]

I pass off very little as "certified fact". You will notice my words were "pretty reliable", meaning it is safe to take the information into account to make decisions or follow along in a reasonable, logical discussion.

I don't believe everything I read. I really do some critical thinking about what I read, and to suggest otherwise is simple nonsense.

I am intellectually honest enough to admit when I make mistakes, and also readily admit to failings on my side of the political spectrum as you yourself have seen me do.

Fallacy: Personal Attack

Also Known as: Ad Hominem Abusive.
Description of Personal Attack

A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.

In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.

[RandomGuy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Guy
First you won't admit ANYTHING,...

What's to admit? The federal government has executed the swifted, most efficient, most effective disaster response in the history of this country and you're nitpicking over dubious, unverified anecdotes that, even if true, don't come close to defining the scope and breadth, or the success, of the operation.


And if these anecdotes add up enough to conclude that it wasn't the "swiftest, most efficient, most effective disaster response in the history of this country" would you admit it?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

I am not asking you to say that this was anything less than an unqualified success. I am asking if you would EVER admit the Bush administration dropped the ball on something. If I played a recording of GW saying "nah, don't worry about that hurricane" would you admit THAT might have been a mistake?

If no level of evidence is sufficient for you to admit that GW might make a mistake, say so, and I will stop wasting my time on it.

I have very rarely ever seen the ability of people at your end of the political spectrum to admit fallibility, so I am not holding my breath...

[RandomGuy]

How about something other than from a bikers forum, eh?
Fallacy: Ad Hominem

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Please try harder than this...

[RandomGuy]

I did. Okay, well, I didn't exactly ask an astronomer but, I did go to a verifiable web site to check your information...the University of Alabama Department of Physics and Astronomy. (Please note, this is not a forum for beginning bikers) Here's what I found.

This is a photograph of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 in a V-band image obtained 19 June 1993 with the Lowell Observatory 1.1-meter telescope. Seen about 13 months before Jupiter impact.

I also learned the comet was discovered in March of 1993...

Wow, you process information slowly if you think 13 to 17 months isn't much longer than several days.

I'm guessing, (and please don't take this as an "ad hominem attack" because, well, it's based on your stupid answers in this thread), that with your grasp of astronomical phenomena, you have a similar position on global warming...alarmist and ill-informed by agendized "scientific" google finds.
Nice googling champ!


(sighs)

Let me restate something so you can understand what I said, and not set up another strawman...

We have cataloged very very few of the the Near Earth Objects that threaten us. If you recall the Shumacher-Levy comets that punched Earth-sized holes in Jupiter, they were discovered by pure chance so that we had enough warning to watch them do their damage.


I did NOT say that we had little/no warning. I DID say that it was lucky we saw them.

Since you decided to step up even though I told you that I know more than you do, let me show you what I WILL say as certified fact.

[RandomGuy]

If you had actually not been so lazy as to not bother to educate yourself about something before questioning what I know, here is a simple, easy to read bit.

Do a google search under the phrase: "near earth object search".

Follow the first link to appear, it should be this:
http://www.lowell.edu/users/elgb/loneos_disc.html

In it you will find the following text, with the bolded sections my added emphasis:

"LONEOS
The Lowell Observatory Near-Earth Object Search
Overview

LONEOS is a system designed to find Earth-crossing asteroids (ECAs) and comets (ECCs), collectively known as near-Earth objects (NEOs). These objects can occasionally collide with Earth sometimes with devastating consequences. Finding large NEOs is the first step in averting a collision.

For a good description of NEOs, see The Spaceguard Survey .

It is thought that there are about 1600 ECAs larger than 1 km in diameter. Only about 100 are known. To find the remainder - or most of them - will require dedicated telescopes that survey the sky for many years. Currently, only one such search telescope is in full-time operation: Spacewatch .

LONEOS, and other systems under development, will supplement the work of Spacewatch. LONEOS should have the capability to scan the entire dark sky accessible from Flagstaff, Arizona, three times per month for a magnitude limit near V=20...

Please, ask an astromer to verify this, if you really think it is false. (begin humor) Hell maybe the guy who wrote this was a beginning biker(/end humor)

[RandomGuy]

BUT let me return to my original point:

The federal response was haphazard, and ill-coordinated in the beginning. Some stuff did get there pretty quickly, but there was a big time lapse for the majority of the help because it took a couple of days for the magnitude of this to become apparent to the disinterested Bush leadership.

FEMA planned for the last disaster, not this one. When it became apparent that things weren't working well, and that extra help was available, FEMA dithered because things didn't fit with their plan. Failure to plan for reality is part and parcel of this administration's modus operendi. Garbage in, garbage out. Planning can only be done with reasonable assumptions, and this administration doesn't care enough to know/find out enough to start with those reasonable assumptions, so their plannning is invariably piss-poor.

[RandomGuy]

Dan has a really good friend in RandomGuy. And the name is relevent too. He
really is Random in his thoughts. Forgot he is an expert on the heavens.

Dan congratulations, your reading habits are really improving. Next thing you know
real books or the editorial page. Yeah they have comics there too.

Yawn. Not even worth a reply. Merely derision...

[RandomGuy]

Still unanswered: [name one specific occurance]

Perhaps you would believe something from a conservative source...

http://www.californiaconservative.org/?p=784

The pansies at FEMA decided to cut and run after a Helicopter was shot at, costing two days. People at FEMA need to be held accountable… and HEADS SHOULD ROLL, what a pathetic, weak decision.

Another one, hundreds of private citizens with boats were not allowed to go into new Orleans to bring people out over paranoia over the criminal element running loose. I’d also hazard a guess that those Bayou boaters that showed up were armed themselves… If I was in charge, I’d have sent everone in that wanted to help.


Or maybe you would believe Trent Lott?

Sen. Trent Lott berated both the Federal Emergency Management Agency and his own state’s emergency management, MEMA, for being mired in red tape at a time of urgent need given the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina.

Lott said he has been trying to get FEMA to send 20,000 trailers “sitting in Atlanta” to the Mississippi coast, and he urged President Bush during a meeting Monday to intervene. He said FEMA has refused to ship the trailers until contracts are secured.

“FEMA and MEMA need to be saying, ‘Yes’ to Mississippi’s needs, not, ‘No.,” the former majority leader said in a written statement.

“Mississippians are homeless, hungry and hurting.”

Similar stories of governmental red tape have been reported elsewhere, including a case of 100 surgeons and paramedics hindered from caring for hurricane victims in rural Mississippi. (Full story)

“This is an emergency situation without peer, like nothing our generation has ever encountered,” Lott said. “If suffering people along the Gulf Coast, from Mobile to New Orleans, are going to recover as soon as possible, we’ll need an unprecedented public and private effort that can’t be hampered by a process geared toward much lesser disasters.”

http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/09/06/trent-lott-all-over-fema/

[RandomGuy]

Let me know when I have found something specific....

[The Ressurrected One]

Let me know when I have found something specific....
Okay, I will.

[RandomGuy]

Okay, I will [tell you when you give me something specific]

Actually you won't, because you are as unable to admit fault as most idealogues are.

Hell, even Bush finally showed that he can admit fault. He took responsibility only when he was forced to by his advisors, but hey, he did it, yay for him.

I ask again:

What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

"It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?

[Yonivore]

What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

"It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?
And action or inaction, by FEMA, that worsened the disaster or cause greater loss of life or property and that can't be ascribed to the normal anectdotal SNAFU's that occur in the midst of an ongoing disaster.

Something like, opening a shelter in a flooded city then failing to stock it with supplies and security; or, turning the Red Cross away at the city limits because you didn't want people to be encouraged to stay; or, abandoning those unable to flee and allowing a fleet of busses to drown, that could have been used to evacuate those people...

That kind of stuff.

Then, verify it.

[RandomGuy]

And action or inaction, by FEMA, that worsened the disaster or cause greater loss of life or property and that can't be ascribed to the normal anectdotal SNAFU's that occur in the midst of an ongoing disaster.

Something like, opening a shelter in a flooded city then failing to stock it with supplies and security; or, turning the Red Cross away at the city limits because you didn't want people to be encouraged to stay; or, abandoning those unable to flee and allowing a fleet of busses to drown, that could have been used to evacuate those people...

That kind of stuff.

Then, verify it.

Um, I already did that. I found two or three first hand accounts from medical volunteers and Senator Trent Lott no less.

Or maybe that Lott guy was making things up...

[RandomGuy]

Actually you won't, because you are as unable to admit fault as most idealogues are.

Hell, even Bush finally showed that he can admit fault. He took responsibility only when he was forced to by his advisors, but hey, he did it, yay for him.

I ask again:

What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

"It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?

R.O., I am still waiting on an answer for this...

[RandomGuy]

still waiting...

[RandomGuy]

and waiting...

[RandomGuy]

and waiting

[Yonivore]

Um, I already did that. I found two or three first hand accounts from medical volunteers and Senator Trent Lott no less.

Or maybe that Lott guy was making things up...
I appreciate your patience.

All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong. Fact remains, this was the quickest federal response to any disaster in the history of the country. Period.

Your "first hand accounts" are from people who aren't in a position to see the big picture and know the reasons behind some of the decisions made. For instance, how many were aware that Doctors were held at bay for 5 days while the Governor dilly-dallied over whether or not to waive licensing requirements...

Hell, it was a fucking disaster, some SNAFUS are inevitable...but, there was not a systemic failure on the part of the federal response. What's the death toll? How many of those died because of a lack of action on the part of the federal government? And, how many died because they were abandoned by their caretakers or the city who waved off Amtrack and let the buses drown? How many would still be alive if the federal government has usurped the State's authority and moved troops into New Orleans on Monday and started forcibly removing residents in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution and the Posse Comitatus act? I dare say the uproar over such an event would have just caused more chaos and death.

And, Trent Lott? Pandering to his constituents...giving people like you some red meat and boosting himself in the local polls. That's all that was.

Give me an example of where things would have turned out significantly better had the federal government been in New Orleans sooner. Then, tell me why the Governor resisted handing over authority to the federal government at every turn.

[Yonivore]

::bump:: for RG

[Yonivore]

VDH says it better than me...



Our Media Hurricane (http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091905.html)


Remember all of this about Hurricane Katrina?

The destruction was the result of global warming. And it was made worse by too many troops off in Iraq. Endemic racism and neglected environmental legislation were as toxic as flood. Military assets were unused due to incompetence or heartlessness. The neglect of the victims was an indictment of a crass and uncaring society.

But none of that ad hoc "analysis" proved conclusive.

Yes, Hurricane Katrina revealed swearing, crying and stupefied public officials at all levels. Their initial paralysis may have endangered some lives.

But the media's coverage turned out to be almost as disturbing as natural calamity and initial bureaucratic ineptness — in both the falsehood it spread and the truth it ignored. Political commentators proved more disturbing, seeking to turn death to partisan advantage.

The public was given few facts about what really happened among those trapped, especially the human mayhem that took place. Most would appreciate evidence before sweeping cultural analysis of half-reported stories that were not followed up because they were either untrue or politically incorrect.

Did hundreds of New Orleans' police — so unlike their New York 9/11 counterparts —really walk off the job or never report for duty amid the crisis?

Did law enforcement often allow the stubborn to stay behind and then ignore looters at the height of the peril — only later to evict survivors trying to rebuild when the waters receded?

Did looters (in search of food or clothing?) really attempt to vandalize the national shrine of the D-Day Museum that survived the flood waters?

And too many of the hysterical pronouncements of ill-informed officials were reported as gospel truth — and then forgotten — in 24-hour bursts. So "25,000 body bags!" and "10,000 dead" beneath the muck of a submerged city were quietly superseded by the matter-of-fact news reports that the airport would open shortly.

Now we are also told that Mardi Gras may be back on schedule. How could such radical improvement happen at ground zero in a city of corpses that supposedly would not recover for decades?

Most people concluded on their own, without help from any talking heads, that one of the worst natural disasters in American history had at first stunned local, state and federal governments, brought out the worst in Louisiana politics and incited a criminal element.

But soon even the ill-prepared mayor of New Orleans and the green director of FEMA found themselves with untold resources at their disposal in a way that was not true of the far greater tolls of recent catastrophes elsewhere. Do we remember France, where 15,000 neglected elderly died without air conditioning (August 2003); or the earthquake at Bam, Iran (December 2003), where 40,000 were crushed, often in substandard housing; or the over 200,000 Southeast Asians (December 2004) who drowned or were buried without warning from an unmonitored tsunami?

New Orleans also exposed the misery of a large underclass in need of attention from the rest of America — and of radical self-introspection.

Reporters' clichés about "racist" America were often at odds with the evidence of their own film footage. Black and white pulled together in Mississippi and thus avoided social chaos. Billions in aid, both private and public, poured into New Orleans from Americans worried sick over their fellow citizens, regardless of race.

After the initial shock, that enormous relief effort turned real catastrophe into salvation: levees patched, thousands of troops on the street, tens of thousands bussed and flown to safe quarters across the country.

But New Orleans also confirmed how a 24/7, hyper media create and then deflate controversies of the day, from the Aruba embarrassment to Cindy Sheehan's circus.

Thus reports of deaths changed by the hour — not by a magnitude of dozens, but by thousands. New alerts flashed that a toxic soup was nearly lethal to the touch even as we watched rescuers wade through it. We were assured that stagnant water would submerge the city for months, even as our screens showed dry, lighted streets, torrents pumped back out and pools evaporating under scorching heat.

Using its Iraqi template, the wired media's one constant is not amazing human resilience but hyped gloom. Later corrections and downgrades seldom make the headlines like their past blaring inaccuracies.

For all the media's efforts to turn the natural disaster of New Orleans into either a racist nightmare, a death knell for one or the other political parties or an indictment of American culture at large, it was none of that at all. What we did endure instead were slick but poorly educated journalists, worried not about truth but about preempting their rivals with an ever more hysterical story, all in a fuzzy context of political correctness about race, the environment and the war.

Let ghoulish CNN file suit against the government to film all the bloated corpses it can find. Let a pontificating PBS "NewsHour" conduct more televised roundtables with grim-faced elites searching out purported national racism. But few any longer trust a frenzied media whose reporters and commentators continually prove as incompetent as they are disingenuous.

Was it too much to ask reporters to look to history to judge this recovery against other past disasters here and abroad? Could they have strived for accuracy instead of ratings — and at least made sure that the images from their cameras did not refute their own predetermined scripts?

[RandomGuy]

I appreciate your patience.

All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong. Fact remains, this was the quickest federal response to any disaster in the history of the country. Period.

Your "first hand accounts" are from people who aren't in a position to see the big picture and know the reasons behind some of the decisions made. For instance, how many were aware that Doctors were held at bay for 5 days while the Governor dilly-dallied over whether or not to waive licensing requirements...

Hell, it was a fucking disaster, some SNAFUS are inevitable...but, there was not a systemic failure on the part of the federal response. What's the death toll? How many of those died because of a lack of action on the part of the federal government? And, how many died because they were abandoned by their caretakers or the city who waved off Amtrack and let the buses drown? How many would still be alive if the federal government has usurped the State's authority and moved troops into New Orleans on Monday and started forcibly removing residents in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution and the Posse Comitatus act? I dare say the uproar over such an event would have just caused more chaos and death.

And, Trent Lott? Pandering to his constituents...giving people like you some red meat and boosting himself in the local polls. That's all that was.

Give me an example of where things would have turned out significantly better had the federal government been in New Orleans sooner. Then, tell me why the Governor resisted handing over authority to the federal government at every turn.


Tell me why, in the 3 years since 9-11, when the single most pressing issue of emergency coordination for disasters is clearly in the public's mind, didn't all of these issues get addressed before now by the government agency responsible for responding to disasters?

[RandomGuy]

I would then ask why a president unconcerned about something as silly as world opinion when it came to Iraq, didn't show some stones and get things done?

If those at the top knew that doctors were being held up, that emergency trailers were being held up, WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T THEY SEND THEM ANYWAYS?

Worry about the legal nicities later and do it anyways.
THAT GOES DIRECTLY TO THE POINT THAT BUSH WAS DAYS LATE PUTTING HIS FOOT UP SOMEBODY'S ASS.

GRRRRR....

Dodge dodge dodge...
I don't question whether help got there fast. A trickle did. The massive flood needed to stem the humanitarian disaster was held back by beaurocratic bungling at all levels.

GW FUCKING BUSH should have gotten his ass back from vacation and realized damn quick that shit wasn't getting done, rather than "Good job Brownie".

[RandomGuy]

I appreciate your patience.

All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong.


Fallacy: Burden of Proof

Includes: Appeal to Ignorance ("Ad Ignorantiam")
Description of Burden of Proof

Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance. This sort of reasoning typically has the following form:

1. Claim X is presented by side A and the burden of proof actually rests on side B.
2. Side B claims that X is false because there is no proof for X.

In many situations, one side has the burden of proof resting on it. This side is obligated to provide evidence for its position.


I h ave presented you with proof that supports the contention that the federal response was bungled. You have to do better than waving your hand and saying "bah". Present proof from first hand accounts that support your contention.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, Hurricane Katrina revealed swearing, crying and stupefied public officials at all levels. Their initial paralysis may have endangered some lives.

I agree with the author there...

[Yonivore]

Present proof from first hand accounts that support your contention.
The relatively low death toll? Or, you could talk to all the living people that were saved by federal government employees from the various branches of the military. Or, you could look at these people who are bitching about the federal response and say, "Hey! You're fucking alive!"

[RandomGuy]

The relatively low death toll? Or, you could talk to all the living people that were saved by federal government employees from the various branches of the military. Or, you could look at these people who are bitching about the federal response and say, "Hey! You're fucking alive!"


The relatively low death toll?

I guess relative to the Indonesian tsunami, our response looks golden.

Try the unnessecarily high death toll.

SPIN SPIN SPIN

[Yonivore]

The relatively low death toll?

I guess relative to the Indonesian tsunami, our response looks golden.

Try the unnessecarily high death toll.

SPIN SPIN SPIN
Well, they ordered 25,000 body bags, didn't they? Then, it was 10,000 dead...then in the thousands...now, we're under 1,000 for the entire affected area, about half in New Orleans. And, many of those were dead before Tuesday...when the levees broke and Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco went high tenor and started covering their asses.

So, tell me...who died unnecessarily and who's fault is it. Give me some specific cases...

The nursing home? Nope, the Parish President lied his ass off on the timeline, those people were abandoned by the owners and the city. Deaths at the Convention center and Superdome? Who failed to adequately supply those facilities before they designated them as shelters? Deaths of people unable to evacuate? Who allowed the buses to drown?

So, were there any deaths due to exposure, starvation, or dehydration? I saw the U.S. military slinging in supplies to all corners of New Orleans from day one. If people weren't immediately evacuated they were supplied.

C'mon RG, let's have a specific death that can be attributed to the federal response. And, when (or if) you do -- compare that to the number of dead due to the incompetence of Louisiana State and local officials...because they will DWARF the number.

[RandomGuy]

Still waiting for something specific from YOU...

dodge dodge dodge...

[RandomGuy]

Tryin to put a specific number on the number of dead due to any X cause would be a difficult in most circumstances.

I would point out a very good article that I read in the Houston paper that had detailed something that had gone very right there in the medical triage.

A large triage was set up kind of spontaneously that saw 15,000 odd people. They very specifically pointed out a number of people that would have been dead in another day had they waited to seek attention. Dehydration, discontinued blood pressure medication, insulin deprived diabetics were some of the things they listed.

It is now up to you to provide links to any kind of first hand accounts that show a fast federal response.

[RandomGuy]

Here is some food for thought along the lines of a meteor or other more down to earth concerns..

"With Rita, we had the benefit of time. We may not have that time in an earthquake scenario or similar incident," said Maj. Gen. John White, a member of the military task force for hurricane Rita, on Sunday.

Rita response showed gains (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0926/p01s02-ussc.html)

Nothing like the sting of a botched response at all levels to focus the minds of those responsible...

[RandomGuy]

You will notice how hard Bush is trying to look like he gives a shit now.

I'm impressed that he finally came back from vacation. Pfft.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=RandomGuy]You will notice how hard Bush is trying to look like he gives a shit now.

Is that one of the things you were taught as an army intelligence analyst?
Discerning Individuals Motives and Sincerity 101

[RandomGuy]

[QUOTE]

Is that one of the things you were taught as an army intelligence analyst?
Discerning Individuals Motives and Sincerity 101

Nah, that is something that a pissed off citizen would say, and has little to do with intelligence training. Please take it as such.

[boutons]

http://www.creators.com/0925/LK/LK0928g.gif

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/sc/2005/sc050928.gif


http://images.ucomics.com/comics/wpnan/2005/wpnan050929.gif

[RandomGuy]

Heh, pictures are worth a thousand words...

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by The Ressurrected One

What's to admit? The federal government has executed the swifted, most efficient, most effective disaster response in the history of this country and you're nitpicking over dubious, unverified anecdotes that, even if true, don't come close to defining the scope and breadth, or the success, of the operation.

And if these anecdotes add up enough to conclude that it wasn't the "swiftest, most efficient, most effective disaster response in the history of this country" would you admit it?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

I am not asking you to say that this was anything less than an unqualified success. I am asking if you would EVER admit the Bush administration dropped the ball on something. If I played a recording of GW saying "nah, don't worry about that hurricane" would you admit THAT might have been a mistake?

If no level of evidence is sufficient for you to admit that GW might make a mistake, say so, and I will stop wasting my time on it.

I have very rarely ever seen the ability of people at your end of the political spectrum to admit fallibility, so I am not holding my breath...


Never got an answer on this one question.