If David Robinson and Tim Duncan Switched...

[tholdren]

If Tim and David Switched eras they played, and all other things stayed the same (teammates/opponents/etc) would the franchise have won more or less rings and who would have had the better career?


I would assume that a majority think Tim is the better player due to rings?

Interestingly enough David is 4th all time in PER, while Duncan is 13

Win Shares Per 48 has David 2nd all time behind Jordan by .0003, while Duncan is 12.

Numbers wise Robinson looks to be well ahead of Tim...

Thoughts?

[TXstbobcat]

I will always be a huge fan of the admiral but one of the big differences between him an Timmy is that Timmy always seems to come up huge in big playoff moments and the admiral never seemed to shine in the playoffs.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Duncan is clearly the superior player, however, it's very unlikely he would have won in the 90s having the same awful teams DRob had to play with. He was dragging them scrubs through the regular seasons, but couldn't do more in the playoffs when teams were triple teaming him and his shooters were being defended like teams defend Rajon Rondo nowadays.

[SnakeBoy]

All I know is that prime DRob with a little more talent around him gets some rings.

[Russ]

Tim had more influence on team success than David did.

David was more spectacular but Tim was more consistent and consistency yields a sameness that can be repeated and practiced and creates a comfort zone in teammates. Hence more poised and effective (less erratic) play in tough situations.

[thispego]

longest off season ever. These threads are ridiculous

[SPURt]

David Robinson was an absolute freak, I would argue David Robinson did more with less talent than any player in recent memory (Lebron's playoffs this year withstanding). That team with Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Terry Cummings, and Sean Elliott was one of my favorites, but trades and injuries derailed that group. Everything after that was one bad move after another (Tark the Shark and Sweet Pea, Good Lawd).

It's easy to say Tim was a better teammate, but Pop plays a huge role in that. The best player Robinson partnered with pre-Duncan was Dennis Rodman, and that's with John Lucas coaching in year one and Bob Hill in year two. Y'all can criticize D Rob, but I have a hard time believing Duncan would have faired better.

I'd say David's ability to play true center with his athleticism would have been a better a fit in todays NBA. He is the perfect small ball center. The one edge Duncan has is his game sustains longer because it isn't built on athleticism.

[TXstbobcat]

The admiral was always a better regular season player and never seemed to have that killer instinct in the playoffs.

[SPURt]

The admiral was always a better regular season player and never seemed to have that killer instinct in the playoffs.
David averaged 36 plus minutes a night and never got a night off till his back gave out and the Spurs got Duncan. It's easy to hold David's playoff performances against him, but he put more into the regular season because he had to at the time.

[TXstbobcat]

David averaged 36 plus minutes a night and never got a night off till his back gave out and the Spurs got Duncan. It's easy to hold David's playoff performances against him, but he put more into the regular season because he had to at the time.

Timmy also averaged over 36 minutes per game in the regular season during his 1st 6 seasons in the league and always seemed to come up bigger in the playoffs. The admiral is the reason I became a Spurs fan but I don't think he ever gets a ring without Timmy.

[SPURt]

Timmy also averaged over 36 minutes per game in the regular season during his 1st 6 seasons in the league and always seemed to come up bigger in the playoffs. The admiral is the reason I became a Spurs fan but I don't think he ever gets a ring without Timmy.
This is true, but David was still in his prime in 99 and the Spurs didn't start getting more chips till Timmy started coming down in minutes. In 03, David did his part too, David made a big difference on the defensive end. I question how many championships Tim wins in the beginning without D Rob.

Timmy is the more accomplished, but I don't agree David wasn't a playoff performer.

[skulls138]

Robinson equals Wilt Chamberlain
Duncan equals Bill Russell

Russell, like Duncan are very team oriented. Not to say that Robinson was selfish, just that the team concept is Duncans gift. I think in his prime years (are we still in them?) Duncan could've scored more but deflected to get others involved

[thispego]

well look who decided to show up

I texted you and you never responded wtf bro

[SPURt]

Robinson equals Wilt Chamberlain
Duncan equals Bill Russell

Russell, like Duncan are very team oriented. Not to say that Robinson was selfish, just that the team concept is Duncans gift. I think in his prime years (are we still in them?) Duncan could've scored more but deflected to get others involved
This analogy works in that Russell had better teammates, but Wilt still got a chip in 1966-67. There was also only 10 teams in the league that year.

People fault David for not having good teammates and losing to the Rockets in 1994-95. The starting 5 that year was David, Rodman, Del Negro, Avery, and Elliott. The bench was basically Doc, JR Reid, Person, Cummings and Anderson. Who on that team could create and penetrate to make David's life easier on offense? Sure, Rodman helps on defense, but his man practically can ignore him on the other end. Prime Hakeem could focus on shutting down the Spurs only offense threat then come back to the other end with likes of Drexler, young Horry, Kenny Smith, Ellie, and Cassell spreading the floor. Of those 5 shooters, only Drexler shot less than 40% from three those playoffs. The Spurs only had one guy shoot over 40% from three (Del Negro).

How can people say David wasn't as good a teammate? As soon as really gifted player on both ends joined the team (Timmy) he handed the reigns over after Tims rookie year, helped him become the all time great he is. David would have happily passed the ball or elevated a real talent had there been one earlier in his career.

[elemento]

The thing that separates them is the playoffs

D-Rob was always amazing when it comes to advanced stats in the regular season, but his playoffs numbers aren't even close to be as impressive.

D-Rob is 4th in career PER and Duncan is 13th, but in the playoffs, Duncan is 7th while Robinson is 15th.

Advanced numbers in the regular will tell you that D-Rob and KG are probably as good as anyone, but their numbers in the playoffs fall apart compared to transcendental players like Duncan, MJ or Shaq.

[Emperor]

Prime Duncan would never let himself get punked by Hakeem in the West Finals.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Prime Duncan would never let himself get punked by Hakeem in the West Finals.

You haven't watched the Houston series, I assume?

[SPURt]

The thing that separates them is the playoffs

D-Rob was always amazing when it comes to advanced stats in the regular season, but his playoffs numbers aren't even close to be as impressive.

D-Rob is 4th in career PER and Duncan is 13th, but in the playoffs, Duncan is 7th while Robinson is 15th.

Advanced numbers in the regular will tell you that D-Rob and KG are probably as good as anyone, but their numbers in the playoffs fall apart compared to transcendental players like Duncan, MJ or Shaq.
What? So Chris Paul is a more "transcendental" playoff performer than Duncan? David Robinson's playoff PER is above Magic's and Bill Russell is 61 on the list. The thing that separates them is rosters. The entire ethos of the "Spurs Way" was established with Robinson. Did the people criticizing Robinson's playoff production not experience seeing D Rob pre-Duncan?

[SPURt]

You haven't watched the Houston series, I assume?
+1000 They double and triple teamed him with the main defender being Hakeem playing out his mind. Tim Duncan would have had no chance with that roster and Bob Hill on the sideline, there's some laughably awful takes going down in here.

[Drachen]

You haven't watched the Houston series, I assume?

This much is obvious. Anyone who watched David play knows that he was a freak with the basketball, he could do anything. It's really easy for Hakeem to get one up on him when Houston was able hard double or triple team Robinson Every. Damn. Time. down the floor.

[Beaverfuzz]

Just STFU.

[diego]

The difference in stats is probably attributable to teammates, Robinson having to do more therefore having an edge. As far as winning, IMO the main difference is Duncans low post scoring which iirc Robinson lacked. Duncan was easier to build around / more dependable as a scorer thanks to that.

[Dunc n Dave]

The "David never performed well in the playoffs argument" I always thought was a cop out for fans who only look at the stats and/or are too young to have seen the 90's playoff games. Playoff teams would double and triple David and dare someone else to beat them: a strategy that worked for most teams. A guy like Vinny Del Negro might make you pay one game for doubling DRob, but not for four games. Playing with Avery Johnson as your PG put David behind the 8 ball too many times. Teams regularly used his man to double the Admiral. Look at the teams that knocked David out; they had multiple, reliable weapons on offense:

1990: 2nd Rnd lost to Portland in 7, who had Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth (who was an All Star in 89), a rookie Cliff Robinson, and young Drazen Petrovic (Spurs were a bad Strickland pass way from Conf Finals)

1991: 1st Rnd lost to Warriors in 4 (3-1): Mullin, Hardaway, Richmond (all over 20ppg) Robinson averaged 25pts, 13reb, 1.5stl, 3.8blks (he did all he could, but the rest of the team folded after performing well in Game 1)

1992: 1st Rnd lost to Suns (3-0): Robinson out with injury for playoffs

1993: 2nd Rnd lost to Suns (4-2): Suns roster had Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Majerle, older Chambers, young Ced Ceballos. David averaged 25pts, 11rebs, 1.7stl, 3.3blks in that series (up from 23 ppg regular season) while an older Dale Ellis and a young Sean Elliott under performed in that series. Both averaged 17ppg in reg season but 15 ppg (Elliott) and 12 ppg (Ellis) vs the Suns. Elliott shot 11% from 3pt and Ellis shot 33%. Cummings and Anderson had been derailed that season by injuries and were never the same.

1994: lost in 1st round to Jazz (3-1): David nemesis Karl Malone & Stockton did a number on the entire team. Yes David's production fell off (20ppg on 41% shooting vs. 30ppg on 51% in reg season) but no one else on the team stepped up when he was being doubled by Malone & Felton Spencer. No other starter shot over 39% that series or scored more than 10ppg. This was also the series where they made Rodman sit out a game because of his antics.

1995: lost in Conf Finals to Houston (4-2): everyone saw the video with the MVP Robinson getting schooled by Olajuwon, no need to rehash this one.

1996: lost to Utah in 2nd Rnd (4-2): Robinson faced double teams again from Malone and Spencer, but no one made them pay. While Robinson scored a disappointing 19pts on 47% FG (compared to reg season #'s of 25pts on 51%) Starting PF Charles Smith averaged a whopping 5pts and 3 rebs vs Utah and "All Star" Sean Elliott averaged 14pts on 33% shooting and 25% from 3pt (after averaging 20ppg and 46% Fg and 41% 3pt in the regular season). Not to mention that Del Negro shot 40% FG and Avery shot 38% FG in that series.

1997 is when the injuries derailed Robinson's career and he was never the same player.

As for Duncan, teams couldn't afford to double Duncan as liberally as they did David in the 90's because Duncan has had guys around him (90% of the time) that made teams pay consistently for doubling him. Whether that be an older Robinson, Elie, Parker, Manu, etc. he had other guys that could step up when teams are intent to stop him . I think of the 2003 1st rnd series vs Marbury, Marion, and Stoudemire's Suns. They doubled Tim relentlessly. Tim averaged on 18pts in that series (compared to 27ppg in the other 3 series), but had 5ast per game in that series because guys like Stephen Jackson made them pay for doubling Tim.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the admiral is better overall than Tim. Just saying people don't give 5-0 enough credit for the fact that he carried those 90's teams while Duncan had more reliable sidekicks who performed under pressure when teams try to make someone else beat them.

[skulls138]

This analogy works in that Russell had better teammates, but Wilt still got a chip in 1966-67. There was also only 10 teams in the league that year.

People fault David for not having good teammates and losing to the Rockets in 1994-95. The star oting 5 that year was David, Rodman, Del Negro, Avery, and Elliott. The bench was basically Doc, JR Reid, Person, Cummings and Anderson. Who on that team could create and penetrate to make David's life easier on offense? Sure, Rodman helps on defense, but his man practically can ignore him on the other end. Prime Hakeem could focus on shutting down the Spurs only offense threat then come back to the other end with likes of Drexler, young Horry, Kenny Smith, Ellie, and Cassell spreading the floor. Of those 5 shooters, only Drexler shot less than 40% from three those playoffs. The Spurs only had one guy shoot over 40% from three (Del Negro).

How can people say David wasn't as good a teammate? As soon as really gifted player on both ends joined the team (Timmy) he handed the reigns over after Tims rookie year, helped him become the all time great he is. David would have happily passed the ball or elevated a real talent had there been one earlier in his career.Its all debatable but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Russell may actually be the best player of all time. He was the best player on a team that won eleven titles. Sure there weren't as many teams and basketball wasn't as popular but we're talking eleven. And one thing else that doesn't get mentioned is that they only stopped getting rings because Russell retired. Ifhe wouldn't have how many more would they have won? As for Russell having better teammates, where's the proof? Good players make those around them better. If Russ would have been like Wilt what's the use of having anybody else on your team? You are doing everything. When you absolutely take care of your duties, and if you are a center that's rebs and blocks, but defer to others to let their talents shine, you have a well oiled machine. This is what Duncan does. And as I said, Robinson may be as good a teammate as Duncan or better but I don't think he understands how to think as a unit as much.

[elemento]

What? So Chris Paul is a more "transcendental" playoff performer than Duncan? David Robinson's playoff PER is above Magic's and Bill Russell is 61 on the list. The thing that separates them is rosters. The entire ethos of the "Spurs Way" was established with Robinson. Did the people criticizing Robinson's playoff production not experience seeing D Rob pre-Duncan?

Never said that, you don't need to get defensive because of it. Just used PER because the OP used it trying to prove that D-Rob was better than Duncan. But in the playoffs the history is different. Not only in PER, but overall efficiency as well.

Great players sustain their level and their efficiency when it comes to playoff games. That's why Karl Malone should never be in the same conversation of Tim Duncan, despite having monster RS numbers.

D-Rob numbers are way better in the regular season, it's a fact and very easy to be proved.

Bill Russell having a low PER is not a surprise since PER mostly benefits great offensive players and it doesn't measure well defense.

The "Spurs way" could have been established by Robinson, but SA was only able to reach greatness when Duncan arrived.

D-Rob was probably the greatest defensive player of all-time along with Russell, but he was not in the same level of Duncan offensively. No shame on that. Duncan is probably a top 5 player of all-time, D-Rob is not.

[cd98]

Duncan has been great and he was great in the era of big men. Robinson would've had more success if he had better teammates. In his prime, he only played with one borderline all star in Sean Elliott. I guess two if you count Rodman, but he did more harm than good. The front office and coach is also way better under the Tim era than the Duncan era.

[Phenomanul]

I find it mildly comical that certain "fans" can critique a player they never saw play (especially during his pre-injury prime). Been a fan of the Spurs since Robinson entered the league... There are games where Robinson outplayed a certain Michael Jordan in his respective prime. That's how great he was. Jordan had a hand in selecting the Dream Team and personally lobbied for Robinson to be the starting center --> Respect. Unfortunately David never had the consistency in coaching, or the continuity of talent and chemistry that Duncan has been blessed with his entire career. For that matter, the ownership transfer to Peter Holt also makes a big difference - previous owners failed to surround David with the players he needed to make the Spurs a championship squad - simply because they didn't want to spend.

Talk of David not being as good a teammate as Duncan obviously have no clue about what they're talking about.

[cjw]

Let's try this strawman based on the same theory that Robinson failed in the playoffs.

- Michael Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen.
- He won six titles with Pippen.
- Jordan just failed when it counted the most and needed Pippen to win titles.

Or this one:
- Lebron couldn't get over the hump without Wade and Bosh.
- Lebron wins 2 rings in Miami, makes two other finals.
- Lebron leaves Miami and fails to ring.

Yes, it's an extreme, but you have to look at the depth of the team and competition (once the Kobe-Shaq Lakers flamed out, things opened up considerbly). Duncan is one of the top 5 players of all time, but the Spurs were lucky enough to have another top 15-20 guy in the Admiral and at his peak, the best player not named Jordan.



I find it mildly comical that certain "fans" can critique a player they never saw play (especially during his pre-injury prime)...

Talk of David not being as good a teammate as Duncan obviously have no clue about what they're talking about.

Exactly

[SPURt]

Never said that, you don't need to get defensive because of it. Just used PER because the OP used it trying to prove that D-Rob was better than Duncan. But in the playoffs the history is different. Not only in PER, but overall efficiency as well.

Great players sustain their level and their efficiency when it comes to playoff games. That's why Karl Malone should never be in the same conversation of Tim Duncan, despite having monster RS numbers.

D-Rob numbers are way better in the regular season, it's a fact and very easy to be proved.

Bill Russell having a low PER is not a surprise since PER mostly benefits great offensive players and it doesn't measure well defense.

The "Spurs way" could have been established by Robinson, but SA was only able to reach greatness when Duncan arrived.

D-Rob was probably the greatest defensive player of all-time along with Russell, but he was not in the same level of Duncan offensively. No shame on that. Duncan is probably a top 5 player of all-time, D-Rob is not.
I'm not sure if you saw Robinson play, he holds the single game record for most points scored in a game by a Spur and that includes the Ice Man and Duncan. Robinson also achieved a quadruple-double, something Duncan hasn't accomplished. I agree Duncan has had a better career, but the question was "what if Robinson and Duncan switched places?"

[T_L_P]

I don't think anyone is implying that Robinson wasn't a great teammate or leader; he just wasn't the leader Duncan is.

Tim, along with Russell and Magic, elevated the play of his teammates more than anyone else ever has.

[SPURt]

Its all debatable but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Russell may actually be the best player of all time. He was the best player on a team that won eleven titles. Sure there weren't as many teams and basketball wasn't as popular but we're talking eleven. And one thing else that doesn't get mentioned is that they only stopped getting rings because Russell retired. Ifhe wouldn't have how many more would they have won? As for Russell having better teammates, where's the proof? Good players make those around them better. If Russ would have been like Wilt what's the use of having anybody else on your team? You are doing everything. When you absolutely take care of your duties, and if you are a center that's rebs and blocks, but defer to others to let their talents shine, you have a well oiled machine. This is what Duncan does. And as I said, Robinson may be as good a teammate as Duncan or better but I don't think he understands how to think as a unit as much.
It's totally legit to pick Bill Russell as the GOAT. He was a beast. But, I still say Duncan has had the better unit to think for.

[tholdren]

so, even though Drob has better advanced stats in the 2 big ones, PER and winshare/48, ST still considers Tim better?

[cd98]

Robinson isn't as good as Tim was on the block. Robinson had a servicable jump shot, but he was more of a face up and blow by you for a dunk player. His size and speed were most unguardable. Even greats like Hakeem and Shaq struggled to guard him one on one. And stats don't say everything about Robinson in the playoffs. When teams had time to game plan, they could focus on stopping him knowing that no one on the team other than Robinson was capable of being a high scorer. Since Robinson was really the only high end scorer on the Spurs, and since teams focused on stopping him without worrying about the other Spurs, it is logical that he would have a lower PER. It's harder to score i the playoffs anyway, but compound it with an inability to get space because your teammates can't play that great only shows why he struggled in the playoffs. Obviously Robinson's defense didn't struggle in the playoffs, but that makes more sense since he was double and triple teamed on offense, not on defense. And while Duncan has nothing left to prove in his career and has established himself on that list of all-time greats, he has benefited during the latter years of his career by playing on great teams and facing low-end centers and power forwards. Early in his career, Duncan played against beasts like Wallace, Dirk, Garnett, Shaq, etc. But late in his career, he has been going against light weights like Howard and DeAndre Jordan, and the fodder on other teams which are way worse than Jordan and Howard. He can probably play another 3 years against the crappy big men in the NBA.

[cd98]

I don't think anyone is implying that Robinson wasn't a great teammate or leader; he just wasn't the leader Duncan is.

Tim, along with Russell and Magic, elevated the play of his teammates more than anyone else ever has.

Yeah, how great did Magic have to be to "elevate" the play of Jabbar and Worthy? Or Scott and Cooper? And Russell had some all-time greats. Who's the best player Robinson played with in his prime? Sean Elliott? That's the point.

[T_L_P]

so, even though Drob has better advanced stats in the 2 big ones, PER and winshare/48, ST still considers Tim better?

Tim has a higher Playoff PER, a slightly lower Playoff WS/48, and a higher Playoff Box +/-.

How about in their primes (99-07 for Tim, 91-96 for Robinson)?

27.0 PER, .227 WS/48, 7.8 Box +/- for Duncan

24.1 PER, .189 WS/48, 6.6 Box +/- for Robinson

[Purch]

so, even though Drob has better advanced stats in the 2 big ones, PER and winshare/48, ST still considers Tim better?
I remember someone tried to use this argument for Robinson over Hakeem on realgm... Didn't end well

[Keepin' it real]

I don't think anyone is implying that Robinson wasn't a great teammate or leader; he just wasn't the leader Duncan is.

Tim, along with Russell and Magic, elevated the play of his teammates more than anyone else ever has.

So you're saying Robinson should have been able to elevate the play of Sean, Avery and Vinny to a level of Manu, Parker and Bowen?? That's quite a stretch.

I don't think Tim elevated their play much at all. Those are just two other Hall of Famers and a premier perimeter defender.

[cd98]

...

[GSH]

DRob was a gazelle. Light and fast, compared to Timmy. Same with Garnett. Both of their numbers (Robinson and Garnett) look good - because they are good. But Tim's bulk and strength made him more of a force in the blocks. He trimmed down a few years ago, to save his legs and prolong his career. But he used to play at around 275 lbs. Robinson was around 235 lbs. That's a big difference when you're rooting for position.

Robinson was a great player, no doubt about that. But if I was starting a franchise and had to pick one or the other (at their prime) to be the anchor, it would be Tim.

[johnpaulwall21]

see most of yall are still underestimating Duncan's value to this organization. Even spurs fans don't appreciate him. Outsiders who argue against Duncan on the all time list, also use the argument that if you plug in kg, malone, or webber the spurs win the same amount of championships. A lot of u seem to believe the same thing if Drob was plugged in.
:cry Duncan was lucky to have stacked teams and great coaching. but but my favorite allstar did not :cry
the hardwork, dedication to the game, that competitive drive even after winning multiple championships separates Duncan from most.
18 years as the spurs cornerstone cannot be replaced by anyone

[GSH]

see most of yall are still underestimating Duncan's value to this organization.

Nobody said "value to the organization". The question was who was the better player? If not for Robinson, there might not BE a franchise in SA. Without Robinson, Tim probably might not be the same player. But you have to admit, Tim has been pretty valuable, too. Value as a player is a little easier to quantify, and Tim was just more dominant in the low blocks. Basketball is, and always will be, a big man's game. Duncan was bigger, and just as talented.

[keeferob25]

see most of yall are still underestimating Duncan's value to this organization. Even spurs fans don't appreciate him. Outsiders who argue against Duncan on the all time list, also use the argument that if you plug in kg, malone, or webber the spurs win the same amount of championships. A lot of u seem to believe the same thing if Drob was plugged in.
:cry Duncan was lucky to have stacked teams and great coaching. but but my favorite allstar did not :cry
the hardwork, dedication to the game, that competitive drive even after winning multiple championships separates Duncan from most.
18 years as the spurs cornerstone cannot be replaced by anyone

Jesus Christ...THANK YOU!!! I just sit back and laugh at some of this stuff. "Spurs fans" always whine and cry about the disrespect the media and regular nba fans show for Duncan and the Spurs yet its present all over these boards. Duncan is THE GREATEST FRANCHISE PLAYER OF ALL TIME!!! He has proven to be THE single most coachable uber legend ever...he has proven to be a staple of MULTIPLE systems that produced championships and perennial contention at worst. He has been an allstar...all nba player for different changing eras. He is by FAR the lowest maintenance upper echelon legend of all time. He isn't era dependent like others. He isnt tied to one system (triangle etc)...and his dominance has spanned TWO freaking decades. I love Robinson but people need to really take a look at one pattern often overlooked. Robinson as mentioned earlier was a freak of absolute nature. Gazelle is perfect. He was also high IQ...great teammate and tremendously talented. He was, to me, a better blend of talent/skill and athleticism than Duncan. You know who else was...Garnett. THeyve always shared striking similarities (KG and David). And that's where much of the problem lies. Look at most of the prominent "freaks of nature" and you'll see KG, David, Lebron, Barkley and Dirk. They all were supremely skilled etc...but youlll interestingly find that they all (minus Barkley) share the same common excuse...and that's teammates.

The problem is the facets of their game were that of a "tweener" and those are historically more difficult to build around. Lebron...part SF put essentially a PG. Garnett...played SF for crying out lout early in his career. Dirk...SG..SF...and PF. David...while certainly a dominant center...suffered the same issue and that's that he preferred his face-up game in key moments as opposed to the effiecient back to basket game sported by the anchors of championship teams historically. Again, David absolutely should have and had better talented teammates. But its VERY lazy and uncertain whether it STILL wouldve meant that "better success" would mean championships are falling short still. Duncan has done it through EVERY variable imaginable. EVERY SINGLE ROAD to our success leads back to Duncan. Its reinforced by any and everyone. He simply was a better bball player and was much easier to build around. Also, MOST of Duncan's help, let's be real...developed UNDER him and their effectiveness amplified BECAUSE of him. So I've always found it very lazy to say...oh uh Duncan had better teammates...without the context of HIM being directly responsible for their being "better".

[ducks]

Duncan better teammates
Tp is greater then an
Plus David played with vinny

[tmtcsc]

DRob was an amazing athlete in his prime; one of the best ever, regardless of the sport. He was incredibly fast, could jump out of the building, could block shots and beat everyone down the floor for an alleyoop, etc. BUT..Tim Duncan was by far the better basketball player. To this day, Tim's footwork, offensive repertoire and basketball acumen exceeds many other big men who have played the game. In his prime, he would have found a way to win regardless of who his teammates were. He was that good and almost still is. Just a marvel.

I believe his lack of athleticism (i.e. jumping ability) has actually played a part in allowing him an extended career.

Back to David for a moment: Take 3 minutes and enjoy this compilation of highlights that show his athleticism. Take special note of how fast he could recover on defense or help bail a teammate out with a blocked shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lQXxRJ-zrU

It must have been maddening for his coaches that he didn't dedicate himself to learning better footwork or post moves. In the playoffs, he could be marginalized both physically and mentally - even by smaller or shorter players. As someone else mentioned, he rarely upped his game to new heights when the stakes got higher. Case in point - during the regular season in 1990 he OWNED the GS Warriors. He was unstoppable and just dominated. As soon as they matched up in the playoffs, scrubs like Tyrone Hill kept him in check with small ball. To this day, that series was one of the most embarrassing and humiliating losses in my memory. Spurs lost the series as the 2nd seed by losing 3 straight games to the Warriors. The team of the 1990's had a reputation for being "soft" and that label was directly attributed to DRob. Fair or not, the perception stuck. Karl Malone and Charles barkley bullied him around and David backed down.

[daslicer]

David Robinson was the superior athlete he had a lightening quick first step and great hops. Those are two things Duncan never had but Duncan physically had things that David didn't possess. Duncan had great hands, broader shoulders, and a bigger body frame. Duncan was a very physical player at the beginning of his career and during his prime but people forget that because his career coincided with Shaq's career that people didn't noticed that aspect of his game. Duncan was a very forceful player on the offensive end that he would aggressively back down guys until he was able to get the position he wanted. I know a lot of people would say Shaq was like a tractor trailer due to his force and I would say Duncan was like god damn Crane with his length and size. Duncan was also a more cerebral player than Robinson in the sense that Duncan knew how to utilize the strengths and weaknesses of his teammates on both ends of the court.

[elemento]

I'm not sure if you saw Robinson play, he holds the single game record for most points scored in a game by a Spur and that includes the Ice Man and Duncan. Robinson also achieved a quadruple-double, something Duncan hasn't accomplished. I agree Duncan has had a better career, but the question was "what if Robinson and Duncan switched places?"

Yes I do know, but so what ? How exactly a career high in the RS proves anything ?

You do realize that Duncan was 2 blocks short from quad-double (unfairly because they missed 2) in the Final game of a freaking NBA Final right ?

Some of you fellows look like those KG apologists (no offense) always trying to blame Minnesota, with "what if questions" but never willing to accept that maybe KG wasn't good enough as a 1st option offensively in the playoffs.

Look, I'm not trying to dismiss D-Rob here. I'm a fan too and he is probably the classiest and the nicest player SA has ever had. A great teammate and a great player too.

But he just wasn't as good as Duncan. If you guys are willing to accept it or not is another issue. At this point of Duncan's career and after all he has done for this franchise, I don't even know how this is debatable tbh.

I'll answer your question with another one. Would D-Rob be able to carry this team to a title ? (Don't look at the names, simply look at the way they performed in a NBA Final).


http://i61.tinypic.com/xqdqab.png


This team by no means is superior to that 95 team that D-Rob had around him. Avery was flat out better than Parker's sophomore version (remember Pop so pissed with him that he was benched for Claxton) and Sean was better than any perimeter player of that 2003 team.

24ppg/17rpg/5apg/5bpg @ 54%TS 32 PER. Duncan had more points, rebounds, assists and blocks than anyone on the team. Bruce, rookie Manu, Parker and Jackson all shooting below 40%fg.

The 2003 title pretty much seals any doubts about Duncan's greatness. And pretty much ends any discussion with pathetic KG fans when they try to bring up the supporting cast excuse. Duncan's supporting cast was worse than what KG had in 2004 and he still won. And the same can be said about D-Rob's team in 95.

[south side spur]

If Tim and David Switched eras they played, and all other things stayed the same (teammates/opponents/etc) would the franchise have won more or less rings and who would have had the better career?


I would assume that a majority think Tim is the better player due to rings?

Interestingly enough David is 4th all time in PER, while Duncan is 13

Win Shares Per 48 has David 2nd all time behind Jordan by .0003, while Duncan is 12.

Numbers wise Robinson looks to be well ahead of Tim...

Thoughts?
I think the only way to answer the question is to look at the Spurs before 97 and ask if Duncan could have carried any of those teams passed where they ended up. With Duncan, could the '90 Spurs get passed the Blazers, Lakers and beat the Bad Boy Pistons. An argument could be made for that ring but I would say Duncan gets them at least to the Finals. What about the embarrassing follow up where the 91 Warriors throttled the Spurs who had the 2nd best record and everyone back only to let Run TMC punk them out? Duncan at the very least gets that team deep in the series. '93 vs the Suns I think another argument could be made there. I say Duncan gets that team to the Finals vs the Bulls. '95? Duncan gets the 62 win Spurs passed the Rockets and the Spurs beat the Magic. Now after 03 without Duncan since we're substituting Robinson do the Admiral led Spurs get passed any of the teams the Duncan led Spurs couldn't? No fucking way. If anything you can forget '05 the Spurs don't beat the Pistons. '14? An argument could be made the Spurs still win but it's definitely not an annihilation.

[Poolboy5623]

Robinson was an ANIMAL. Give him Duncan's supporting cast and your going to win some rings. Of course there's always the Jordan factor, to figure in..

[RayTdropout]

Wish jordan would have came back. History would have been alot different. Would have been spurs bulls in 99 finals. The media would not no what to do. Spurs would still have won.

[exstatic]

I always felt that the difference between the two came down to who they are: Tim burned for the game, and David didn't. My impression is that the game and $$$ was a means to an end for his charities and the Carver Academy for David.

[daslicer]

I always felt that the difference between the two came down to who they are: Tim burned for the game, and David didn't. My impression is that the game and $$$ was a means to an end for his charities and the Carver Academy for David.

This is the same view I have for both of those guys. Duncan to me was just hyper competitive that he took losses very hard while for Drob the losses hurt but they didn't burn his soul. I remember Shaq said something about Duncan during the playoffs after Duncan had a great game against the clippers that went something like this "I knew before the game started Duncan was going to play great because Duncan had two games where he was just average and since Duncan is a superstar there was no way he was going to have a third straight game where he wasn't going to be a dominant force. Duncan is a superstar he has that pride there was no way he was going to get punked tonight."

I felt Dave never had that competitive edge like Shaq mentioned in that quote.

[SPURt]

Yes I do know, but so what ? How exactly a career high in the RS proves anything ?




http://i61.tinypic.com/xqdqab.png


This team by no means is superior to that 95 team that D-Rob had around him. Avery was flat out better than Parker's sophomore version (remember Pop so pissed with him that he was benched for Claxton) and Sean was better than any perimeter player of that 2003 team.

24ppg/17rpg/5apg/5bpg @ 54%TS 32 PER. Duncan had more points, rebounds, assists and blocks than anyone on the team. Bruce, rookie Manu, Parker and Jackson all shooting below 40%fg.
Points and FG% aren't everything, these guys could all defend minus Tony. Some people on this site have argued this was one of the Spurs all time best teams and you are trying to tell me they aren't better than AJ, Elliott, Rodman, Del Negro? I don't think I can co-sign on that.... Robinson put in 13 pts and 17 Rbs to close out that series. This was against a Nets team that didn't even compare to that Rudy T/Hakeem Houston team.

[SPURt]

No one is saying Robinson>Duncan. Duncan has had a top 5, arguably top 3 career and is the greatest player since Jordan. The question is, would Robinson have had more success THAN HE HAD given Tim's career conditions? If David had 2 HOFer's next to him, he rings pre-Duncan. If Robinson wasn't constantly carrying scrubs they don't go from a 59 win team to a 20 win team (with Robinson participating in three of those wins). Some straight garbage in this thread.

[quentin_compson]

Spurs 2003 version one of the best Spurs teams of all times?? I hope no one is seriously thinking that ...

[Russ]

What about the embarrassing follow up where the 91 Warriors throttled the Spurs who had the 2nd best record and everyone back only to let Run TMC punk them out? Duncan at the very least gets that team deep in the series.

Part of the blame for that GS series has to go to Larry Brown.

Don Nelson took him by surprise by playing small and fouling Robinson every time he touched the ball.

They had about five different undersized guys using their allotment of fouls on Robinson -- Mario Ellie even guarded him for long stretches just to foul him.

Brown never responded to Nellie's moves and the result was a disgraceful series loss. Brown gave up on Robinson after that and things didn't really get back on track until Tim arrived.

[SPURt]

Spurs 2003 version one of the best Spurs teams of all times?? I hope no one is seriously thinking that ...
Yeah, 4 Hall of Famers is a pretty bad team

[SPURt]

For perspective, Lebron's first run Cavs win 61 games before he leaves, plummets to 19 wins after he leaves.

[dgspursforlife]

Yeah, 4 Hall of Famers is a pretty bad team
Well 2 of those are rookies and another one is on his last leg with a broken bag...
That playoff run ends all comparisons between duncan and any of the other bigs he often gets compared with.

[Spurtacular]

David Robinson was an absolute freak, I would argue David Robinson did more with less talent than any player in recent memory (Lebron's playoffs this year withstanding).


That Cleveland team that was in the championship wouldn't have even finished .500 in The West.

[elemento]

Points and FG% aren't everything, these guys could all defend minus Tony. Some people on this site have argued this was one of the Spurs all time best teams and you are trying to tell me they aren't better than AJ, Elliott, Rodman, Del Negro? I don't think I can co-sign on that.... Robinson put in 13 pts and 17 Rbs to close out that series. This was against a Nets team that didn't even compare to that Rudy T/Hakeem Houston team.

Not they aren't, but it's not like Sean or Rodman couldn't defend either.

Avery and Sean provided more offense to that team than any of those 2003 players. Any of them.

People may have their opinion and I can respect it, but to me the 2003 team was Duncan's strongest year while having the weakest supporting cast. All the other championship years the Spurs had other guys helping the team way more. Like D-Rob in 99, Manu in 2005, Manu and Parker in 07 and the team overall greatness in 14.

Duncan carried that 2003 team all the way to the championship.

D-Rob did have a great final game, but Duncan put a close quad-double to finish that season (21/20/10/8).

And yeah, the Rockets team was better than the Nets team, but don't forget who the Spurs had to beat in the West in order to reach the Finals. It's not like that Shaq/Kobe coming off 3 straight titles was an easy task or the Mavs with Dirk, Finley and Nash.

Duncan put 28/12/5 @ 57%TS that series and the Lakers couldn't stop him, no matter who they had guarding him. And Duncan finished the Mavs with 28/17/6/3 @ 60%TS.

It was one of the greatest runs of all-time by a single player BAR NONE.

[SPURt]

Not they aren't, but it's not like Sean or Rodman couldn't defend either.

Avery and Sean provided more offense to that team than any of those 2003 players. Any of them.

People may have their opinion and I can respect it, but to me the 2003 team was Duncan's strongest year while having the weakest supporting cast. All the other championship years the Spurs had other guys helping the team way more. Like D-Rob in 99, Manu in 2005, Manu and Parker in 07 and the team overall greatness in 14.

Duncan carried that 2003 team all the way to the championship.

D-Rob did have a great final game, but Duncan put a close quad-double to finish that season (21/20/10/8 (tel:21/20/10/8)).

And yeah, the Rockets team was better than the Nets team, but don't forget who the Spurs had to beat in the West in order to reach the Finals. It's not like that Shaq/Kobe coming off 3 straight titles was an easy task or the Mavs with Dirk, Finley and Nash.

Duncan put 28/12/5 @ 57%TS that series and the Lakers couldn't stop him, no matter who they had guarding him. And Duncan finished the Mavs with 28/17/6/3 @ 60%TS.

It was one of the greatest runs of all-time by a single player BAR NONE.
I totally agree Duncan had an all time great Finals MVP performance, really the best Finals in Spur's history. Duncan is the GSOAT, but Robinson couldn't have done more considering the cards he was dealt.

[south side spur]

Part of the blame for that GS series has to go to Larry Brown.

Don Nelson took him by surprise by playing small and fouling Robinson every time he touched the ball.

They had about five different undersized guys using their allotment of fouls on Robinson -- Mario Ellie even guarded him for long stretches just to foul him.

Brown never responded to Nellie's moves and the result was a disgraceful series loss. Brown gave up on Robinson after that and things didn't really get back on track until Tim arrived.
Exactly, Russ. The nightmare is starting to come back to me again. I just remember feeling numb after that close out game like...what the fuck just happened? Do you agree that Duncan wouldve at least made a difference or was Browns stubbornness too much even for Timmy to make a difference? Duncan handles blitzes exponentially better than Robinson ever did.

[Obstructed_View]

David had to learn how to win during his career. He was an amazingly talented player that wasn't driven to win early on. It took a lot of playoff failures, but you could see it start to mean more to him as time went on. Duncan very well could have been that guy, because that's what he was at Wake Forest. I don't think you have one without the other.

[TD 21]

Wish jordan would have came back. History would have been alot different. Would have been spurs bulls in 99 finals. The media would not no what to do. Spurs would still have won.

I've always said the Spurs would have beaten them. Kerr damn near admitted as much a year or two ago on a podcast with Simmons. The Bulls were on the fumes of their fumes in '98.

Based on the way both series played out, the Pacers and Jazz should have beaten them. Throw in another year of mileage, plus a Spurs team that was clearly superior to those two and was most equipped to exploit their biggest weakness and that probably would have been the death knell for their unblemished Finals record.

[tmtcsc]

Robinson was an ANIMAL. Give him Duncan's supporting cast and your going to win some rings. Of course there's always the Jordan factor, to figure in..

Ehhhhhh...give him a better coach & Manu Ginobili, and MAYBE he wins Ring(s). I'm not convinced otherwise. He was not the leader Tim is and didn't spend nearly as much time trying to improve. He wasn't capable of being the offensive focus of the team. When the Spurs needed a basket, he was not a go-to-guy. I contend that David became one of the Top 50 NBA players of all time almost on physical talent alone. -- Which is very impressive.

Had Dennis Rodman not been a selfish nutcase, his Championship experience may have helped David get to the next level.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

All I know is that prime DRob with a little more talent around him gets some rings.

This. Honestly, Robinson had laughable teams. There wasn't enough talent in San Antonio to reasonably expect rings during the early to mid 90's. He is penalized unfairly due to that.

[Spurtacular]

All other things being equal, I'd say Duncan would've dominated in the Robinson era as well because the teams had the pieces that meshed with his offensive talents. Conversely, Robinson may have thrived with a second banana like Ginobili.

[SPURt]

http://img.memecdn.com/BLASPHEMY_o_96659.gif

[Spurtacular]

This. Honestly, Robinson had laughable teams. There wasn't enough talent in San Antonio to reasonably expect rings during the early to mid 90's. He is penalized unfairly due to that.

I think those early to mid nineties Spurs teams were good enough to win a finals. But a significant problem with those teams is the lack of a second all-star level player that championship teams typically possess. That's why Sean E. (ST editing Sean's last name into asterisks for some reason) disappointed me. I had him pegged as that type of player coming out of college. He still ended up being a serviceable starter at least.

[Join'orDie]

What's up Spurstalk longtime lurker here. I love me some Robinson talk so I'm going to weigh in with my two cents. First, let me say that TD in my mind is a top 3 player of all time. MJ, Russ, TD in no particular order I would take to start a franchise. Now, that said I've always believed Robinson to be one of the most underrated players of all time. I didn't read this question as whether or not D-Rob would have been greater than TD had they switched careers. Rather would D-Rob have accomplished more than D-Rob actually accomplished. Which I believe wholeheartedly yes.

If national pundits will argue up and down that Lebron hasn't had enough "help" throughout his career then I can certainly make an arguement for Robinson. San Antonio was a terrible franchise when David arrived. Truthfully, it is surprising that Robinson didn't opt out to go to the Lakers. Cummings was the best player Robinson had and while he was very good he only lasted the first 3 years of Robinsons career. Sean was D-Robs main running mate and honestly he should have never been a Spur. Had the Spurs taken Glen Rice, I think he and David would have won at least one ring (of course we probably don't get Tim because Rice's 96-97 was monstrous). Rodman was more a distraction than anything else and he and Robinson clashed constantly. As for Avery, I seriously wonder if Cory Joseph would have been better. As for ownership, the FO, and coaches they were all very unstable as well as just being bad, and had it not been for 5-O there probably is not a team in SA today.

Next, I look at what it would mean for Robinson to change eras. The 90s were stacked with great post players. Ewing, Dream, Mutombo, Malone, early Shaq, Mourning, Barkley, early C-Webb Kemp. Hell Rik Smits would be a top 3 center in the league today. Dirk, Shaq, KG, Howard, Stoudemire, Gasol, Wallaces, don't quite stack up ( Lakers Shaq and Dirk are all time). And the recent batch of bigs outside of AD and Aldridge (he's a Spur now I got to) would be 2nd or third tier compared to that group. A lot has to do with guys leaving college early, much more detrimental for a big to leave early than a guard or forward and rule changes that have been made to encourage a more up tempo guard dominated league.

Robinson would have fit right into the modern NBA. In fact a more interesting question is what would David's career be if he came in sometime in the last decade. The biggest critisim D-Rob received was that he was soft. This was because he didn't play back to the basket, well that's 90 percent of bigs today. Prime Robinson in the league right now would be a terror. He would be a bigger star than Bron. He could run with any guard, was one of the most versatile scoring bigs the league has ever seen, incredible defender; dude averaged 2.3 steals one year (as many as Kawhi just did) while blocking 4.5 shots a game. 4.5. He took Navy to the elite 8. As a college player Robinson is probably all time top 10. Because of his military service two prime years of his career were erased. Robinson in the league right now would be this unguardable machine on offense and I don't think there is a player today who could score on him. I love TD. Like I said I think he's all time top 3. But I don't think it's disrespectful at all say that Robinson was the most talented player ever to wear a Spurs uniform. At the end of the day though regardless of circumstance TD got it done and that's the difference.

[tholdren]

Who was David Robinson's Spurs best 2nd option.

[SPURt]

What's up Spurstalk longtime lurker here. I love me some Robinson talk so I'm going to weigh in with my two cents. First, let me say that TD in my mind is a top 3 player of all time. MJ, Russ, TD in no particular order I would take to start a franchise. Now, that said I've always believed Robinson to be one of the most underrated players of all time. I didn't read this question as whether or not D-Rob would have been greater than TD had they switched careers. Rather would D-Rob have accomplished more than D-Rob actually accomplished. Which I believe wholeheartedly yes.

If national pundits will argue up and down that Lebron hasn't had enough "help" throughout his career then I can certainly make an arguement for Robinson. San Antonio was a terrible franchise when David arrived. Truthfully, it is surprising that Robinson didn't opt out to go to the Lakers. Cummings was the best player Robinson had and while he was very good he only lasted the first 3 years of Robinsons career. Sean was D-Robs main running mate and honestly he should have never been a Spur. Had the Spurs taken Glen Rice, I think he and David would have won at least one ring (of course we probably don't get Tim because Rice's 96-97 was monstrous). Rodman was more a distraction than anything else and he and Robinson clashed constantly. As for Avery, I seriously wonder if Cory Joseph would have been better. As for ownership, the FO, and coaches they were all very unstable as well as just being bad, and had it not been for 5-O there probably is not a team in SA today.

Next, I look at what it would mean for Robinson to change eras. The 90s were stacked with great post players. Ewing, Dream, Mutombo, Malone, early Shaq, Mourning, Barkley, early C-Webb Kemp. Hell Rik Smits would be a top 3 center in the league today. Dirk, Shaq, KG, Howard, Stoudemire, Gasol, Wallaces, don't quite stack up ( Lakers Shaq and Dirk are all time). And the recent batch of bigs outside of AD and Aldridge (he's a Spur now I got to) would be 2nd or third tier compared to that group. A lot has to do with guys leaving college early, much more detrimental for a big to leave early than a guard or forward and rule changes that have been made to encourage a more up tempo guard dominated league.

Robinson would have fit right into the modern NBA. In fact a more interesting question is what would David's career be if he came in sometime in the last decade. The biggest critisim D-Rob received was that he was soft. This was because he didn't play back to the basket, well that's 90 percent of bigs today. Prime Robinson in the league right now would be a terror. He would be a bigger star than Bron. He could run with any guard, was one of the most versatile scoring bigs the league has ever seen, incredible defender; dude averaged 2.3 steals one year (as many as Kawhi just did) while blocking 4.5 shots a game. 4.5. He took Navy to the elite 8. As a college player Robinson is probably all time top 10. Because of his military service two prime years of his career were erased. Robinson in the league right now would be this unguardable machine on offense and I don't think there is a player today who could score on him. I love TD. Like I said I think he's all time top 3. But I don't think it's disrespectful at all say that Robinson was the most talented player ever to wear a Spurs uniform. At the end of the day though regardless of circumstance TD got it done and that's the difference.

Great first post! I'd also add the change in defensive rules as well. Guys could camp in the lane when David was in his prime before the defensive three seconds, which helps him on defense, but clogs the lane on the other side. D Rob also lived in the hand/forearm checking era. He would have eaten today's NBA for breakfast and pooped All NBA awards a few hours later.

[SPURt]

Who was David Robinson's Spurs best 2nd option.
By resume, I'd say Rodman (I don't think Dominique counts). By consistency, I say Elliott. My favorite, probably Cummings. I was pulling for Dwayne, but cocaine is a helluva drug...

I assume we aren't counting Timmy, as David was probably Timmy's second option.

[tholdren]

By resume, I'd say Rodman (I don't think Dominique counts). By consistency, I say Elliott. My favorite, probably Cummings. I was pulling for Dwayne, but cocaine is a helluva drug...

I assume we aren't counting Timmy, as David was probably Timmy's second option.

Could we all agree that tim had and has 4-6 players on his team better than Elliott for the duration of his career?

[SPURt]

Could we all agree that tim had and has 4-6 players on his team better than Elliott for the duration of his career?
http://memecrunch.com/meme/PSLB/agreed/image.jpg

[Join'orDie]

Great first post! I'd also add the change in defensive rules as well. Guys could camp in the lane when David was in his prime before the defensive three seconds, which helps him on defense, but clogs the lane on the other side. D Rob also lived in the hand/forearm checking era. He would have eaten today's NBA for breakfast and pooped All NBA awards a few hours later.

Thanks man. I agree that the rule changes hurt D-Robs defensive numbers, but man it would have opened things up wide open on offense. Forgot to also mention David's left-handedness which was just another physical advantage he had. One of the things I hate about all the Lebron>MJ talk is honestly I don't think Bron has surpassed David yet. Both extremely gifted athletes who needed another great player to win. Difference is I think prime Dave is a much more versatile and consistent scorer than LBJ. And on defense its not even close Dave brings so much more to that end.

[RoyerReptiles]

People either just tend to forget things over time or they simply are too young to have experienced them. It's that simple, especially with Spurs fans. We are a spoiled, spoiled bunch thanks to the likes of David and Tim.

Fortunately I've been able to follow the Spurs since right before David arrived, during the 2 year military service between draft day in '87 and his first game. What a time to be a Spurs fan. The buzz in San Antonio was amazing. The anticipation of Big Dave's arrival had the city excited. It's just too bad the ownership/management of the Spurs were, quite frankly, idiots at the time. They basically trashed David's prime years. It's also too bad, from the perspective of a "selfish" Spurs fan, that David spent those two years between college and the NBA finishing up his military commitment. Just look at Anthony Davis right now. He's the closest thing I've seen to David Robinson since those early 90's years. A combination of prime Amare Stoudemire and prime Dwight Howard....only more athletic. What could David have done with two more years in the NBA following college, when he was 22, 23 and 24 years old? It stands to reason that he would have been a more polished player offensively at age 24. We would have seen two more years of him with youth, athleticism and probably health. We'll never know.....

This is a fascinating thought experiment, though. How would they have done if you switched them without changing the teammates? Tim would have most definitely fit in quite nicely during the NBA's golden era of big men. The 90's were stacked with great centers and power forwards. He would have been right at the top of the list with Ewing, Orlando Magic Shaq, Hakeem, Alonzo, Karl Malone, Barkley, Mutombo and the rest of the great big men from that era. No doubt. David would have THRIVED in the NBA of the 2000's, post rule change as well. It's been an athlete's league ever since, and with the lack of quality centers? I can't imagine how crazy his career would have been. His jumper was not "serviceable", as one poster put it earlier. What a slight. David had an excellent jump shot. It was soft and had lots of arc. It was much more text book than Tim's. Another slight was his apparent lack of ability to lead an offense. While no Duncan (obviously), he LED THE LEAGUE IN SCORING one year!!! He was in the top ten in scoring almost every year during his prime. Duncan is an all time great offensive big man, but don't discount the Admiral's ability to be a first option. He was a freak of nature.

When you compare the actual Spurs teams that surrounded the two over their careers you really can't help but laugh. David's supporting cast was a joke. Plain and simple. As good as Sean ever was, he was no prime Ginobili, Parker or Kawhi. Good offensive player that had the three ball and could slash and defend, but he never had that kind of impact. The other role players on Tim's teams were a perfect fit for what they did. Horry was great, as was Kerr. Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Danny Green, Patty Mills, Stephen Jackson....the Duncan led Spurs have been pretty well built. If you substitute big Dave into those teams, the dynamic definitely changes, but not all that much. David was a very good passer out of the post. If he had more slashers and shooters, the double and triple teams of the playoffs don't come as often. Big Dave's one on one ability was off the charts. Hell, in '92 when the USA Basketball selection committee was making their pics....it went like this:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
........then David Robinson.

They picked him before Barkley. Before Malone. Before Ewing, Drexler, Pippen....all of them.

Yes, he was THAT good. Duncan will be remembered for his freakish longevity, his basketball acumen and his amazing offensive set. His career is easily better than David's. This is a team game, though, and Duncan has almost always been blessed with a good to great group of teammates. Coaching? Please. We definitely don't need to go there. Take away Dave's military commitment and give him Duncan's supporting cast/coaching staff, and we'd all have a much different opinion of the Admiral.

He wins multiple championships if he was in Duncan's place all these years. Easily.

[quentin_compson]

Yeah, 4 Hall of Famers is a pretty bad team

Only one of those four was playing on HOF level in 2003.

[dgspursforlife]

People either just tend to forget things over time or they simply are too young to have experienced them. It's that simple, especially with Spurs fans. We are a spoiled, spoiled bunch thanks to the likes of David and Tim.

Fortunately I've been able to follow the Spurs since right before David arrived, during the 2 year military service between draft day in '87 and his first game. What a time to be a Spurs fan. The buzz in San Antonio was amazing. The anticipation of Big Dave's arrival had the city excited. It's just too bad the ownership/management of the Spurs were, quite frankly, idiots at the time. They basically trashed David's prime years. It's also too bad, from the perspective of a "selfish" Spurs fan, that David spent those two years between college and the NBA finishing up his military commitment. Just look at Anthony Davis right now. He's the closest thing I've seen to David Robinson since those early 90's years. A combination of prime Amare Stoudemire and prime Dwight Howard....only more athletic. What could David have done with two more years in the NBA following college, when he was 22, 23 and 24 years old? It stands to reason that he would have been a more polished player offensively at age 24. We would have seen two more years of him with youth, athleticism and probably health. We'll never know.....

This is a fascinating thought experiment, though. How would they have done if you switched them without changing the teammates? Tim would have most definitely fit in quite nicely during the NBA's golden era of big men. The 90's were stacked with great centers and power forwards. He would have been right at the top of the list with Ewing, Orlando Magic Shaq, Hakeem, Alonzo, Karl Malone, Barkley, Mutombo and the rest of the great big men from that era. No doubt. David would have THRIVED in the NBA of the 2000's, post rule change as well. It's been an athlete's league ever since, and with the lack of quality centers? I can't imagine how crazy his career would have been. His jumper was not "serviceable", as one poster put it earlier. What a slight. David had an excellent jump shot. It was soft and had lots of arc. It was much more text book than Tim's. Another slight was his apparent lack of ability to lead an offense. While no Duncan (obviously), he LED THE LEAGUE IN SCORING one year!!! He was in the top ten in scoring almost every year during his prime. Duncan is an all time great offensive big man, but don't discount the Admiral's ability to be a first option. He was a freak of nature.

When you compare the actual Spurs teams that surrounded the two over their careers you really can't help but laugh. David's supporting cast was a joke. Plain and simple. As good as Sean ever was, he was no prime Ginobili, Parker or Kawhi. Good offensive player that had the three ball and could slash and defend, but he never had that kind of impact. The other role players on Tim's teams were a perfect fit for what they did. Horry was great, as was Kerr. Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Danny Green, Patty Mills, Stephen Jackson....the Duncan led Spurs have been pretty well built. If you substitute big Dave into those teams, the dynamic definitely changes, but not all that much. David was a very good passer out of the post. If he had more slashers and shooters, the double and triple teams of the playoffs don't come as often. Big Dave's one on one ability was off the charts. Hell, in '92 when the USA Basketball selection committee was making their pics....it went like this:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
........then David Robinson.

They picked him before Barkley. Before Malone. Before Ewing, Drexler, Pippen....all of them.

Yes, he was THAT good. Duncan will be remembered for his freakish longevity, his basketball acumen and his amazing offensive set. His career is easily better than David's. This is a team game, though, and Duncan has almost always been blessed with a good to great group of teammates. Coaching? Please. We definitely don't need to go there. Take away Dave's military commitment and give him Duncan's supporting cast/coaching staff, and we'd all have a much different opinion of the Admiral.

He wins multiple championships if he was in Duncan's place all these years. Easily.

I don't want to take anything away from the admiral but I would say that the 2003 team was weaker on paper than some of the 90s teams (before duncan obv.).
And when exactly were the rule changes implemented?

[barbacoataco]

Very easy. Switch Del Negro and and Avery in 95 with Manu and Parker and they win.

[barbacoataco]

Anyone questioning Robinsons's greatness should spend some time on basketball-reference.com. I has season tickets back then so I remember. While it's true that DRob didn't play well in pressure , he had no help. Give him someone like Manu in 2005 and a good coach and it's a different story. I always felt like in crunch time he had all the weight on him. Even the Hakeem Rockets had guys going nuts from the 3pt, but Robinson never had that support.

Don't ever forget that Vinny Del Negro was the starting SG on those teams. He wouldn't even be on the bench of today's Spurs. The talent gap is pretty huge.

[tatteredprince]

Tim Duncan's game is that of a well-rounded super center

While David Robinson, my first favorite player, is more of a super-athletic forward

I think Robinson may be the first coming of Anthony Davis, just my opinion.....

[barbacoataco]

If is true that DRob never had a go to move that he could rely on in pressure situations. He managed to score a ton of points on athletic ability, kind of like Amare, but that doesn't work as well in the playoffs. But he was a great defensive player. I also think that winning was never that important to him. Duncan is really ultra-competitive.

[tatteredprince]

i just realized how crucial a center is in the game of basketball:

asssuming that DRob was a power forward (lack of the low post game), then the COMBINED titles of 3 super forwards: Robinson before Duncan, Dirk and the Minnesota Garnett is ONE!

one title only, wow............

whereas a "center" is a lock-in for multiple titles:

Chamberlain (multiple titles), so is
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem
Walton
and of course, Duncan.....

that's why teams are built around centers.....

[tatteredprince]

Duncan is clearly better

now, lets move on and discuss, who is better, our beloved Duncan or the immortal Hakeem The Dream?????

THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION!

[tatteredprince]

Perhaps the question of who is the best center of all time will have no resolution!

But good for basketball theoreticians through the ages to come (assuming that Earth continues in its present state, lol).

1) Chamberlain ?????
2) Russell ?????
3) Shaq ??????
4) Hakeem ??????
5) Kareem ??????
6) Sabonis (whole body of work) ?????

[tatteredprince]

Arvydas Sabonis makes the case as the most talented player of all time, taking everything into consideration.....

Imagine an all time draft and Pop selects Sabonis as number one of all time! lol

(Someone should ask him this question)

[tatteredprince]

watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUz3C0p-Yso

[RD2191]

Lol. OP is a faggot.

[barbacoataco]

The younger people might not remember, but while they were playing, it was open for debate whether DRob or Hakeem was better. It was only after the 95 playoffs when people perceived that Hakeem outplayed him, that everyone ranked Olajuwon higher. And that is ridiculous for many reasons. If you look at MVP voting, Allstar selections, and statistics, Robinson was neck and neck or even slightly ahead of all centers throughout the 90's. He led the league in scoring, rebounding, blocks multiple times. He would sometimes get 10 or 11 blocks in a single game etc.

History remembers things different than they were perceived at the time. But those of is that lived through it remember the truth.

[D_Admiral]

My teammate and colleague Tim Duncan, is the best big since Jabar. I would say his success would have translated into any decade.

[ohmwrecker]

I would like to see a prime Robinson murder Dwight Howard.

[tmtcsc]

Duncan is clearly better

now, lets move on and discuss, who is better, our beloved Duncan or the immortal Hakeem The Dream?????

THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION!

Duncan, no question. Better career, better stats, more jewelry. Next. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem had 2 seasons where he was awesome and borderline unstoppable but lets not get things twisted. Duncan has had sustained success at a very high level for the entirety of his career.

[G-Dawgg]

Robinson could haul stats like crazy, but he was not the reliable scorer that Duncan was. Duncan was unstoppable in his prime. Also Duncan was a clutch performer. I still have a box of VHS tapes of old spurs and random NBA games (Including every game of every post-season spurs championship run) and I can say Robinson was one of the elite, however Duncan in his prime was a defferent breed of beast.

[tatteredprince]

Duncan, no question. Better career, better stats, more jewelry. Next. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem had 2 seasons where he was awesome and borderline unstoppable but lets not get things twisted. Duncan has had sustained success at a very high level for the entirety of his career.


-----------------------------------

Good point.

However, if they switched teams, what do you think? (If Hakeem was with the Spurs, would have been mind boggling)

[tatteredprince]

this book should be updated:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/whos-better-whos-best-in-basketball-elliott-kalb/1112137684?ean=9780071417884

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

-----------------------------------

Good point.

However, if they switched teams, what do you think? (If Hakeem was with the Spurs, would have been mind boggling)

:lol Hakeem without shooters around him?

[therealtruth]

I think Hakeem/TD were more fundamentally sound and relied on good footwork while DR relied more on his athleticism.

[barbacoataco]

The question being discussed here is not who is better, clearly Duncan. It's whether Robinson could have won a championship in his prime with Duncan's supporting cast. And I think he could have.

[SPURt]

David was a center, 7'1 built like Lebron. What are yall talking about calling him a power forward and comparing him to the defenseless Amare?

[RoyerReptiles]

I don't want to take anything away from the admiral but I would say that the 2003 team was weaker on paper than some of the 90s teams (before duncan obv.).
And when exactly were the rule changes implemented?

From NBA.com, as far as the rule changes go:

"In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help"

These rules hinder the athletically challenged basketball player, creating the small-ball bonanza we see today. David was an oddity: A 7 foot, one inch super athlete who was generally the best athlete on the floor every night. He is arguably the most athletically gifted (size, strength and speed) player we've ever seen in the NBA besides Lebron James.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

To address the point of the 2003 team.....I have to disagree. I mean, seriously, call it what you want, but that 2003 team went through the three time defending champs and a SOLID Dallas Mavericks team to win the title. That was no fluke. Duncan lovers like to give him the bulk of the credit....and while he had an all time great playoff performance, that team played great in the playoffs. Role players stepped up when they needed to, time and time again, unlike the role players from the 90's teams with Robinson. THAT'S been the main difference between the two eras (Robinson led and Duncan led)....the "others", as Shaq likes to call them.

Just take a look at the role players on the Duncan led 2003 title team:

Robinson (yes, aged, but probably still better than any big man Robinson ever teamed up with in his prime, including a headcase Rodman or an older version of Terry Cummings
Bruce Bowen: As good as Sean ****** was, he was NOT the defender that Bruce was
Manu Ginobili: Young version, but was already considered the best player in Europe at the time. Very good backup shooting guard, and already better than Del Negro.
Stephen Jackson: clutch. Seriously. Very. Clutch. He thrived in the clutch.
Steve Kerr: older, no doubt, but did you see that game six in the 2003 WCF against Dallas?
Tony Parker: young version, but man, this guy was fast, fast, FAST. Even at this stage he had his moments. He miffed in the finals against a superior point guard in Kidd, but then we had....
Speedy Claxton: probably better than every point guard David had in his prime, besides Avery and Rod Strickland. And he was the backup. Remember, there were times when Del Negro ran the point for San Antonio. Ugh.
Malik Rose: I actually miss Rose. This guy was a work horse.
Steve Smith: tail end of his career, but a great vet for the bench
Kevin Willis: Even though he was 40, this guy was a GREAT backup center. He was necessary against those Shaq led Lakers in the semi-finals.

I take that team over every single 90's team, especially with Pop as the coach.

[tholdren]

Lol. OP is a faggot.
Rob, do you yell "Odoyle Rules!" when riding away on your scooter?

[Russ]

The bigs Mount Rushmore is:

Wilt, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Duncan.

[SPURt]

Lol. OP is a faggot.
Hey boo!

[RoyerReptiles]

Duncan, no question. Better career, better stats, more jewelry. Next. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem had 2 seasons where he was awesome and borderline unstoppable but lets not get things twisted. Duncan has had sustained success at a very high level for the entirety of his career.

When you say jewelry, are you using championships as your guide? For whatever reason, and I believe it's people getting caught up in the ESPN pundit rating system that puts so much emphasis on 'chips, people just seem to put that category at the top of the list when comparing NBA superstars. If this was tennis or golf, I could see it, but this is a team game. The performance of an individual in a championship or playoff situation is important, but I really believe people need to be careful when using the 'chip as the ultimate guideline for ranking players.

But let's get down to brass tacks on Olajuwon vs. Duncan. You said better career. I can lean that way, but only slightly because of Duncan's longevity and the better teams/coaching he's had. Duncan has him beat in regular season MVPs at 2 to 1, but Olajuwon has what Duncan never got....and that's a defensive player of the year award. He got two of them, actually. Hell, he won MVP AND Defensive player of the year during the same year....along with Final's MVP. Only player to do that. If he had better teams over his career, like Duncan, he probably would have more final's MVPs. Olajuwon was about as good as a two way player as you're gonna get in the NBA, on a similar level to Jordan.

Olajuwon led the league in rebounding twice: '89, '90
led the league in blocks three times: '90, '91, '93
all time leader in blocks over a career at 3,830.
all time leading center in steals.
His career averages over his 18 year career are: 22.5 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.7 spg and 3.1 bpg.
Duncan's career averages (so far) over 18 years are: 19.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.7 spg and 2.2 bpg.

Duncan gets the Assists per game title over Olajuwon, but the other 4 categories per game belong to the Dream.

Duncan finished his 18th season and Olajuwon played 18, so comparing careers is actually a bit more doable than a lot of other comparisons. After 18 seasons they compare like this:

Duncan games played: 1,331 Olajuwon: 1,238
Duncan points: 25,974 Olajuwon: 26,946
Duncan rebounds: 14,644 Olajuwon: 13,748
Duncan assists: 4,062 Olajuwon: 3,058
Duncan steals: 978 Olajuwon: 2,162
Duncan blocks: 2942 Olajuwon: 3,830

Duncan has him in total assists and rebounds, but not by a lot considering he played roughly 100 more games so far. Olajuwon's block and steal totals are STAGGERING!!! He outscored Duncan as well. Being a follower of the NBA since the late 80's and seeing the stat machines that Big Dave and Hakeem were for fantasy bball teams, I had to call out your "better stats" comment. Olajuwon's stats over an 18 year career were mind boggling. I can't imagine what they'd be like if he didn't play those last two years.

Duncan definitely has him on longevity, but man, don't discount arguably the greatest center of all time (arguably....he's top 3 or 4 for sure.)

[Russ]

Duncan definitely has him on longevity, but man, don't discount arguably the greatest center of all time (arguably....he's top 3 or 4 for sure.)

He couldn't even win March Madness (college) with a first ballot NBA Hall-of-Famer (Clyde Drexler) beside him.

[SPURt]

I take that team over every single 90's team, especially with Pop as the coach.
I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still circumstance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still circumstance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

What?

[SPURt]

What?
Pop and Duncan, though Pop just keeps getting better.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Pop and Duncan, though Pop just keeps getting better.

:lol Pop of 2003 was in his prime? Don't be ridiculous. Spurs of 2003 had no system, had the ups and downs of a rebuilding team, which they were. They just had an incredible Duncan to drag them to a title while having 7 of their top 9 playoff performers shoot 40% or less throughout the playoffs. 2003 was all Duncan, Pop was just there like everyone else.

[SPURt]

:lol Pop of 2003 was in his prime? Don't be ridiculous. Spurs of 2003 had no system, had the ups and downs of a rebuilding team, which they were. They just had an incredible Duncan to drag them to a title while having 7 of their top 9 playoff performers shoot 40% or less throughout the playoffs. 2003 was all Duncan, Pop was just there like everyone else.
Good thing Tim benched Tony, good thing Tim drafted Tony and Manu, good thing Tim inserted a veteran on his last leg and Tim hit all those threes to get the Spurs past the Mavs. You're right Tim was totally alone. After six years of coaching, Pop was totally inept as a coach, good thing Tim was there to bail him out! Lol!

[Silver&Black Warrior]

I find it mildly comical that certain "fans" can critique a player they never saw play (especially during his pre-injury prime). Been a fan of the Spurs since Robinson entered the league... There are games where Robinson outplayed a certain Michael Jordan in his respective prime. That's how great he was. Jordan had a hand in selecting the Dream Team and personally lobbied for Robinson to be the starting center --> Respect. Unfortunately David never had the consistency in coaching, or the continuity of talent and chemistry that Duncan has been blessed with his entire career. For that matter, the ownership transfer to Peter Holt also makes a big difference - previous owners failed to surround David with the players he needed to make the Spurs a championship squad - simply because they didn't want to spend.

Talk of David not being as good a teammate as Duncan obviously have no clue about what they're talking about.

I was just curious as to how you found out that Jordan lobbied for Robinson to be on the Dream Team. Thanks for the info.

[tholdren]

I forgot, 2003 had five HOF's, two in their prime. Some bad takes in this thread, but RoyerReptiles bringing the goods. Duncan has had a better career than every center except arguably Kareem and Russell. I still have a hard time picking against Duncan, one more chip and he and Jordan have had the two best modern careers. So much is still circumstance. Even Jordan needed Phil and Pippen.

even though robinson has better individual stats?

[SPURt]

even though robinson has better individual stats?
Are you stating that in your voice or misunderstanding my position?

[tholdren]

Are you stating that in your voice or misunderstanding my position?
I have no idea what you were saying in that last post

[SPURt]

I have no idea what you were saying in that last post
I was chiming in on the Dream versus Duncan debate (confusingly, my bad). I was making a comment that circumstance contributes to career success.

the first sentence was a defense of the 2003 champs. People saying Avery/Del Negro backcourt led teams were better with the likes of Bob Hill on the sideline.

[Phenomanul]

I was just curious as to how you found out that Jordan lobbied for Robinson to be on the Dream Team. Thanks for the info.

In one of the interviews when both of them were inducted into the HOF.

[CosmicCowboy]

David Robinson was soft.:p:

[ambchang]

I don't think anyone is implying that Robinson wasn't a great teammate or leader; he just wasn't the leader Duncan is.

Tim, along with Russell and Magic, elevated the play of his teammates more than anyone else ever has.

It's much easier to elevate the play of Ginobili, Parker, Kerr, Elie, Leonard, Green, Bowen than it is to elevate the play of Elliott (loved him, but he is no Ginobili), Johnson, Del Negro and Daniels.

[Hyperhypo]

I think The Spurs would have beaten the Rockets. Not sure if Drob would have won in the 2000s but If Drob was in today's NBA mannnnnn the fast game Drob would dominate

[bic50]

F op and F anyone disrespecting DROB. We owe everything we have right now to that dude. Real talk

[Aztecfan03]

haveen't been reading this thread, but if they switched duncan would have still been here in 2004 and 2005 and they would have 3-peated.

[capek]

Drob would murder the league playing with the teammates Timmy has had. And as all time great as Timmy is, there's not a player in existence that could have dragged those 90s Spurs teams much further in the playoffs than Drob was able to manage.

I don't necessarily think that a Drob 2000s+ era Spurs team would have won more titles than Timmy managed, but there's definitely no reason to think they would have won less.

[Aztecfan03]

Drob would murder the league playing with the teammates Timmy has had. And as all time great as Timmy is, there's not a player in existence that could have dragged those 90s Spurs teams much further in the playoffs than Drob was able to manage.

I don't necessarily think that a Drob 2000s+ era Spurs team would have won more titles than Timmy managed, but there's definitely no reason to think they would have won less.

they probably win 2004 because timmy would be here and maybe more overall in the early 2000s. Probably don't win in 2014 though.

[G-Dawgg]

I followed Robinson since his rookie year when I was in junior high, and I must say he was the better overall player. He was like the ultimate fantasy basketball pick. He was the best overall player in the NBA for a long time as far as total overall stats. In his prime, he won the IBM award 5 times. Robinson was easily the best all-around player in the league during his prime. He did literally EVERYTHING well. There were other centers that were good scorers, rebounders, defenders, playmakers, shotblockers etc, but Robinson was awesome at everything. He was like a Dwight Howard/Anthony Davis hybrid. Too bad he didn't get much of a supporting cast of players to play around him...

"The IBM Award, created to honor the player who contributes most to his team's overall success, utilizes a computer evaluation of key offensive and defensive statistics to determine an overall leader. The formula is as follows: Player Pts. -- FGA+REB+AST+STL+BL-PF-TO+(team wins x 10)x250
Team Pts. -- FGA+REB+AST+STL+BL-PF-TO"

IBM AWARD WINNERS
Season, Player, Team
1983-84 Magic Johnson, L.A. Lakers
1984-85 Michael Jordan (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html), Chicago
1985-86 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1986-87 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1987-88 Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1988-89 Michael Jordan (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html), Chicago
1989-90 David Robinson (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/david_robinson/index.html), San Antonio
1990-91 David Robinson (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/david_robinson/index.html), San Antonio
1991-92 Dennis Rodman, Detroit
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/hakeem_olajuwon/index.html), Houston
1993-94 David Robinson (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/david_robinson/index.html), San Antonio
1994-95 David Robinson (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/david_robinson/index.html), San Antonio
1995-96 David Robinson (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/david_robinson/index.html), San Antonio
1996-97 Grant Hill (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/grant_hill/index.html), Detroit
1997-98 Karl Malone (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/karl_malone/index.html), Utah
1998-99 Dikembe Mutombo (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/dikembe_mutombo/index.html), Atlanta
1999-2000 Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/shaquille_oneal/index.html), L.A. Lakers
2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/shaquille_oneal/index.html), L.A. Lakers
2001-02 Tim Duncan (http://www.spurstalk.com/playerfile/tim_duncan/index.html), San Antonio

[Obstructed_View]

The younger people might not remember, but while they were playing, it was open for debate whether DRob or Hakeem was better. It was only after the 95 playoffs when people perceived that Hakeem outplayed him, that everyone ranked Olajuwon higher. And that is ridiculous for many reasons. If you look at MVP voting, Allstar selections, and statistics, Robinson was neck and neck or even slightly ahead of all centers throughout the 90's. He led the league in scoring, rebounding, blocks multiple times. He would sometimes get 10 or 11 blocks in a single game etc.

History remembers things different than they were perceived at the time. But those of is that lived through it remember the truth.

If you swap Robinson and Hakeem in '95 the Rockets sweep the Spurs.

[spurraider21]

I followed Robinson since his rookie year when I was in junior high, and I must say he was the better overall player. He was like the ultimate fantasy basketball pick. He was the best overall player in the NBA for a long time as far as total overall stats. In his prime, he won the IBM award 5 times. Robinson was easily the best all-around player in the league during his prime. He did literally EVERYTHING well. There were other centers that were good scorers, rebounders, defenders, playmakers, shotblockers etc, but Robinson was awesome at everything. He was like a Dwight Howard/Anthony Davis hybrid. Too bad he didn't get much of a supporting cast of players to play around him...

"The IBM Award, created to honor the player who contributes most to his team's overall success, utilizes a computer evaluation of key offensive and defensive statistics to determine an overall leader
But how good was he overall?

[Russ]

If Tim and David Switched eras they played, and all other things stayed the same (teammates/opponents/etc) would the franchise have won more or less rings and who would have had the better career?


I would assume that a majority think Tim is the better player due to rings?

Interestingly enough David is 4th all time in PER, while Duncan is 13

Win Shares Per 48 has David 2nd all time behind Jordan by .0003, while Duncan is 12.

Numbers wise Robinson looks to be well ahead of Tim...

Thoughts?

This just demonstrates that statistics are not determinative of ultimate success.

[capek]

they probably win 2004 because timmy would be here and maybe more overall in the early 2000s. Probably don't win in 2014 though.

Sounds reasonable, though for me it's too much speculation. Maybe more modern medical techniques allow Drob to extend his career. I don't feel like looking up Drob's mpg by season, but I'm sure he didn't get the minutes treatment Pop has given to his players. Maybe being on Pop's minutes regime would also have helped extend his career.

And maybe it works in the opposite direction for Timmy. Without the modern medicine and training regimes, and playing heavier minutes throughout his career, Timmy doesn't last as long.

[daslicer]

Sounds reasonable, though for me it's too much speculation. Maybe more modern medical techniques allow Drob to extend his career. I don't feel like looking up Drob's mpg by season, but I'm sure he didn't get the minutes treatment Pop has given to his players. Maybe being on Pop's minutes regime would also have helped extend his career.

And maybe it works in the opposite direction for Timmy. Without the modern medicine and training regimes, and playing heavier minutes throughout his career, Timmy doesn't last as long.

Drob relied heavily on his super athletic abilities and those type of players tend to burn out quicker than guys who don't rely on athleticism. If you look at bigs who were able to play at a high level at old age such as Parish,Kareem, they all had one thing in common which was that they were not super athletic to begin with. Look at guys such as Webber,Amare,Kemp,McDyees, once these guys hit 30 that's when they started suffering from a bunch of injuries. It will be interesting to see if modern medicine will be able to extend Blake Griffin's career beyond the age of 30.

[capek]

Drob relied heavily on his super athletic abilities and those type of players tend to burn out quicker than guys who don't rely on athleticism. If you look at bigs who were able to play at a high level at old age such as Parish,Kareem, they all had one thing in common which was that they were not super athletic to begin with. Look at guys such as Webber,Amare,Kemp,McDyees, once these guys hit 30 that's when they started suffering from a bunch of injuries. It will be interesting to see if modern medicine will be able to extend Blake Griffin's career beyond the age of 30.

But none of those players had their minutes managed for most of their career like Pop has done with his players. It's just an unknown, how that would effect the career of a player of Drob's caliber.

[daslicer]

But none of those players had their minutes managed for most of their career like Pop has done with his players. It's just an unknown, how that would effect the career of a player of Drob's caliber.

They both played a heavy amount of minutes at the start of their careers. Also Drob's career average for minutes is 34.7 while Duncan's career average is 34.4 minutes. So its pretty much the same. I think it was inevitable for Drob to have more injuries towards the end of his career due to his game relying heavily on athleticism nothing would have changed it.

[Arcadian]

It all comes down to the post game for me. Duncan is the superior post player, and that ends the discussion for me. Robinson was a super-athlete and good at everything, but in order to be successful at basketball, you don't need to be good at everything. You just need to be excellent at a few things. Duncan became the best post player, best rebounder (with Garnett), and best defensive anchor in the league, and that's why he dominated the league.

And the fact that he did it without being a super-athlete, for me, makes it even more impressive. I really appreciate players who just have pure skill and don't rely on their athleticism.

With that said, Robinson was fucking amazing and is definitely underrated by most.

[kobyz]

Drob didn't make his teammats better like Duncan...