Bowen vs. Danny Green?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Curry shot like 10 percent against Green in 2013.

One series and even then, Curry still had a decent (Curry shot 35% from 3pt that series) . In his prime, Bruce never got owned once for an entire series. Maybe 1 and at most 2 games in a series, his opponent would play on par. But for the most part, Bruce made them play worse.

[ElNono]

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I bet there's a much stronger correlation between Green's scoring output vs. the Spurs' W/L record in comparison to Bowen's offensive output impacting the outcome of the game, tbh..

The current Spurs are heavily reliant on scoring from all their key players, including Green..Bowen's scoring had virtually no impact on the results of the old Spurs, they were conventionally built from a perspective of roles with a traditional #1 superstar(Duncan), #2 star (Manu) and #3 All-Star (Parker)

I'm pretty certain this is correct. But obviously, when those guys were in their prime, they needed a different set of role players around them (ie: Pop could certainly afford to have a defense-only specialist out there, or trot out semi-stiffs like Rasho, Elson). We also played defense differently, for obvious reasons.

[look_at_g_shred]

It's pretty close tbh.. But i'd have to give Bowen the edge here... prime kobe / t-mac LAWD!! I will never forget the hurt he put on the pistons in 05. Some great defensive stands :cry Oh yeah and can't forget the 3 chips. Green is no slouch either. Definitely more athletic, and is probably the best fastbreak defender in the league (although simmons might have something to say about that :lol ) Green has only scratched the surface on what he can be and the legacy he will build with the Spurs.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

And I will say this, Green did have one very good Bowen-like series and that is when he guarded Paul in the 2012 Clips series. But he preceded to get his ass owned by Harden the next series.

[Chinook]

One series and even then, Curry still had a decent (Curry shot 35% from 3pt that series) . In his prime, Bruce never got owned once for an entire series. Maybe 1 and at most 2 games in a series, his opponent would play on par. But for the most part, Bruce made them play worse.

You asked for an example, and I gave it. That was by no means the only series he was awesome in. Anyway, you bringing up Curry's series numbers is silly, because you were asking about Green's job, which was quantified by ESPN. That wasn't really done back in Bowen's day, which is why people assume Bowen was responsible for all of James' negatives when Manu picked up more turnovers against Lebron than Bowen did.

And I'll guess we'll ignore Dirk in 2006 or Nash in pretty much anything. Or Paul.

[look_at_g_shred]

And I will say this, Green did have one very good Bowen-like series and that is when he guarded Paul in the 2012 Clips series. But he preceded to get his ass owned by Harden the next series.
It's definitely hard to compare their games as the game has changed significantly since Bowen's departure.

[ducks]

This is really close..

53
57

:lolhow many times did u vote

[Frank Dux]

You talk like he was the main reason the spurs lost he was not. And what role are you talking about? You shouldnt rely on a 3&D guy to win you the championship. The big boys should have stepped up and done it.

No, I talk like his disappearing act in the two most critical games of the series was a significant contribution to losing those games. I've said that over and over again. Don't try to move the goal posts. You don't think DG going 1-7 in Game 6 (a game that was tied at the end of regulation) was significant? Really? Nobody relies on DG to win a championship, but he is relied upon to contribute, and his core competency on offense is making shots. He went 2-19. The big boys did step up. Old man Duncan played like a real MVP, like he typically does when then series is on the line. DG disappeared.

[Chinook]

No, I talk like his disappearing act in the two most critical games of the series was a significant contribution to losing those games. I've said that over and over again. Don't try to move the goal posts. You don't think DG going 1-7 in Game 6 (a game that was tied at the end of regulation) was significant? Really? Nobody relies on DG to win a championship, but he is relied upon to contribute, and his core competency on offense is making shots. He went 2-19. The big boys did step up. Old man Duncan played like a real MVP, like he typically does when then series is on the line. DG disappeared.

As a whole, Green had a good Game Six. His defense really picked up. Meanwhile, what did Manu do during that game to offset his turnovers?

Green shooting 2-19 is not particularly weird. The Spurs can and do find a way to survive that whenever it happens. That didn't lose the series any more than the other mistakes that led up to those games.

[100%duncan]

No, I talk like his disappearing act in the two most critical games of the series was a significant contribution to losing those games. I've said that over and over again. Don't try to move the goal posts. You don't think DG going 1-7 in Game 6 (a game that was tied at the end of regulation) was significant? Really? Nobody relies on DG to win a championship, but he is relied upon to contribute, and his core competency on offense is making shots. He went 2-19. The big boys did step up. Old man Duncan played like a real MVP, like he typically does when then series is on the line. DG disappeared.
Who's moving goalposts here? Green was the main reason the Spurs were on that positioin the first place. He's just a role player, you cant expect him to do it for 7 straight games :lol And your argument against him all points to expecting him to win the championship for us. He did well for 5 games, 5 out of 7 games, what more could you ask for. And no, the big boys didnt show up. Only Duncan did. Parker got outplayed by chalmers and noris cole for the last 2 games. Manu let us down with the turnovers and freethrow. Kawhi choked the freethrow. Pop screwed up at the last moment.

At the end of the day, if this is your big argument against Green in favor of bowen, then you are just hurting your cause. Since for you, Green's offense was the biggest problem we couldn't close the Heat out. Bowen's offense never made or broke a series, he was there for defense and an occasional 3 here and there.

[Frank Dux]

As a whole, Green had a good Game Six. His defense really picked up. Meanwhile, what did Manu do during that game to offset his turnovers?

Green shooting 2-19 is not particularly weird. The Spurs can and do find a way to survive that whenever it happens. That didn't lose the series any more than the other mistakes that led up to those games.

Manu's turnovers were also a significant contributor to the loss on game 6. I doubt anybody would deny that. I'm not sure how anybody could deny DG's disappearing act contributing to the loss as well.

Green going 2-19 is weird. As one of the best shooters in the league, it's unlike him. It's unusual. And when that kind of streak does happen, you only hope it doesn't happen when it matters most. His confidence on offense was clearly shaken in Game 6 and that bled into Game 7. We're not talking about the games that led up to it. We're talking about Games 6 and 7. He played outstanding in Games 1-5. In Games 6 and 7, he went 2-19. In close games that could have clinched the series, it hurt us. Plain and simple. I'm not sure how people can deny that. People are acting like it made no difference. It did. It was a significant factor in those losses. And the Spurs did try to find a way to survive. As he typically does when it's do or die, Old Man Duncan played like it was 2003 again. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough.

[Kidd K]

Green's easily better offensively (dat Finals performance) but I thought Bowen was better on defense. He didn't fill the stat sheets but you could visibly see him piss off and frustrate everyone he defended even when he wasn't sticking his feet under people and just playing normally. Almost no one seems frustrated with Green even though he does a good job.



Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.

But he cucked LeBron in the Finals. Made him look like complete shit with practically no double teams.

Not to mention Foot Gate. Take jumpers near Bowen at your own risk. :lmao

[Chinook]

Manu's turnovers were also a significant contributor to the loss on game 6. I doubt anybody would deny that. I'm not sure how anybody could deny DG's disappearing act contributing to the loss as well.

First, calling it a "disappearing act" completely ignores the fact that he was there defending and spacing the floor for the rest of the guys. Danny completely changed the way the Heat defended because they couldn't afford to ignore him.


Green going 2-19 is weird. As one of the best shooters in the league, it's unlike him. It's unusual. And when that kind of streak does happen, you only hope it doesn't happen when it matters most.

No, it's not particularly weird. Green went cold in then 2012 WCF (though he was still a really good defender in that series). It happens. He can't be insanely hot every time you want him to be.


In close games that could have clinched the series, it hurt us. Plain and simple. I'm not sure how people can deny that.

It was one of the reasons why the Spurs didn't win. But literally every rotation player did something wrong that cost the series. That's why calling out Green makes little sense. He had the second-most (at worst) awesome defensive play in Spurs' playoff history in during that "disappearing act".


And the Spurs did try to find a way to survive. As he typically does when it's do or die, Old Man Duncan played like it was 2003 again.

He played like Old Man Duncan until he missed a bunny at the end of Game Seven. He was great until then but failed when it mattered most.

Manu failed when it mattered most.

Kawhi missed a FT when it mattered most.

Diaw couldn't box out Bosh when it mattered most.

Parker couldn't score down one in OT when it mattered most.

Green went cold at the absolute worst time, and it killed him during those games. But when the chips were down and he was alone staring down the best player on Earth running at him full speed with the game on the line, he blocked him and got the turnover. You don't think that's stepping up?

[Chinook]

But he cucked LeBron in the Finals. Made him look like complete shit with practically no double teams.

Wow. If that's your memory of that series, I don't know what to tell you.


Not to mention Foot Gate. Take jumpers near Bowen at your own risk. :lmao

And for some reason people think that made him a better defender.

[Kidd K]

Wow. If that's your memory of that series, I don't know what to tell you.



And for some reason people think that made him a better defender.

Bowen single man defended him the vast majority of the time. Off the ball work counts for something too, which is where he damaged LeBron's offensive impact the most by denying him the ability to get open to receive passes to get the ball in the first place. If he didn't bring that shit up the court or go way out near the halfcourt line to get a pass, he didn't get the ball very often.

Bowen did an excellent job and I wish more fans could appreciate defense that takes place away from the ball too.

[Frank Dux]

Who's moving goalposts here? Green was the main reason the Spurs were on that positioin the first place. He's just a role player, you cant expect him to do it for 7 straight games And your argument against him all points to expecting him to win the championship for us. He did well for 5 games, 5 out of 7 games, what more could you ask for. And no, the big boys didnt show up. Only Duncan did. Parker got outplayed by chalmers and noris cole for the last 2 games. Manu let us down with the turnovers and freethrow. Kawhi choked the freethrow. Pop screwed up at the last moment.

You are moving the goal posts. That's all you've been doing. I never said he was the reason we lost the games 6 and 7. I've said over and over and over again that he played outstanding in Games 1-5. He was amazing. He was a big contributor to use winning those games. We've covered that. But that has nothing to do with Games 6 and 7. For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that he completely lost his confidence and disappeared in Games 6 and 7, and that was a significant contribution to us losing us those games. You don't think that carried weight? You don't think it mattered? How can you deny that? It's a just an honest reflection of what actually happened. But apparently his shots only matter when we win. And yeah, Manu was TO machine and Kawhi missed a free throw. Norris Cole never stepped foot on the court in the last two games, but Chalmers did get the edge on Parker in the last games. Everybody had their faults. Nobody gets a pass. It doesn't change that fact DG turning into an offensive ghost in Games 6 and 7 significantly hurt our chances of winning those two games. I'm not sure how you can deny that.

To recap, to rein you back in, you said DG delivered in 2 straight finals and pinned the loss on the benching of Duncan. I said "It's important to note that DG threw up brick after brick and let himself get pretty frazzled in that game. His 1-7 from the field was also pretty damaging in a game that close." That is what I'm saying. That's it. I haven't strayed from that point. I'm not sure how anybody could deny his offensive performance was damaging in Game 6 and 7. I hope that provides clarity on my position, but I fully expect you to respond by saying he was amazing in Games 1-5. lol


At the end of the day, if this is your big argument against Green in favor of bowen, then you are just hurting your cause. Since for you, Green's offense was the biggest problem we couldn't close the Heat out. Bowen's offense never made or broke a series, he was there for defense and an occasional 3 here and there.

You're all over the place. I have made exactly zero claims or allusions about Bowen being better than Green. I'm not sure why you're once again trying to argue with me about something I never said. lol

[Chinook]

Bowen single man defended him the vast majority of the time. Off the ball work counts for something too, which is where he damaged LeBron's offensive impact the most by denying him the ability to get open to receive passes to get the ball in the first place. If he didn't bring that shit up the court or go way out near the halfcourt line to get a pass, he didn't get the ball very often.

Bowen did an excellent job and I wish more fans could appreciate defense that takes place away from the ball too.

Like, seriously, if that's how you saw that series, there's really nothing more to say. It didn't happen that way at all.

[Frank Dux]

Green went cold at the absolute worst time, and it killed him during those games.

It sounds like you and I are in agreement.

[Chinook]

It sounds like you and I are in agreement.

Agreeing on a premise isn't agreeing on a conclusion.

[Frank Dux]

Agreeing on a premise isn't agreeing on a conclusion.

Oh, so it's sounds like you don't think DG going 2-19 significantly contributed to the Spurs losing games Games 6 and 7. Got it. We can agree to disagree on that one.

[kobyz]

op after jinxing Kawhi last playoff with his premature and childish takes, now going after green...

[dabom]

We lost cause Enrique chuck mode.

[kobyz]

We lost cause Enrique chuck mode.
Yeah and Matt Barnes outplayed Kawhi has nothing to do with it... And stop blaming Parker cause first you should blame Pop who was naive and vanilla all season and didn't take charge on things like he should have...

[dabom]

Yeah and Matt Barnes outplayed Kawhi has nothing to do with it... And stop blaming Parker cause first you should blame Pop who was naive and vanilla all season and didn't take charge on things like he should have...

That's the order I blame them in. Pop first tony second.

[kobyz]

That's the order I blame them in. Pop first tony second.

So start making Pop hate threads instead of only tony threads...

[spurraider21]

When I say, "Don't be that guy", I mean that guy who nitpicks at things like me using diction you didn't like.

I clearly don't mean absolutely everyone. I mean that folks thinks that Bowen had harder assignments. Prime KD and Lebron are the two best offensive players (or at least the hardest to guard) in either era. And the rules and having a worst Tim makes it even more slanted. I really don't see how the competition was superior.
yeah but danny wasn't the primary defender against either. not that westbrook is an easy cover, but he's not durant. and green spent most of his time against Wade, not lebron. again, not an "easy" cover, but the wade we saw in '13 and '14 wasn't that great.

[Chinook]

yeah but danny wasn't the primary defender against either. not that westbrook is an easy cover, but he's not durant. and green spent most of his time against Wade, not lebron. again, not an "easy" cover, but the wade we saw in '13 and '14 wasn't that great.

Westbrook is a harder cover than Durant, especially considering KD's habit of going beta. However, Green spent almost as much time on Durant as he did on Westbrook. The Spurs closed out OKC with Danny being KD's primary defender.

[bic50]

I'll take whoever doesn't get shut down by Matt Barnes tbh. So both :tu
:sleepYou try way to hard

[TheGreatYacht]

:sleepYou try way to hard
too* smh so illiterate. 22 posts and you still haven't given a good take :wakeup

[JR3]

In today's nba, green is the obvious choice. Bowen was better defender , while green is the better shooter

[100%duncan]

You are moving the goal posts. That's all you've been doing. I never said he was the reason we lost the games 6 and 7. I've said over and over and over again that he played outstanding in Games 1-5. He was amazing. He was a big contributor to use winning those games. We've covered that. But that has nothing to do with Games 6 and 7. For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that he completely lost his confidence and disappeared in Games 6 and 7, and that was a significant contribution to us losing us those games. You don't think that carried weight? You don't think it mattered? How can you deny that? It's a just an honest reflection of what actually happened. But apparently his shots only matter when we win. And yeah, Manu was TO machine and Kawhi missed a free throw. Norris Cole never stepped foot on the court in the last two games, but Chalmers did get the edge on Parker in the last games. Everybody had their faults. Nobody gets a pass. It doesn't change that fact DG turning into an offensive ghost in Games 6 and 7 significantly hurt our chances of winning those two games. I'm not sure how you can deny that.

To recap, to rein you back in, you said DG delivered in 2 straight finals and pinned the loss on the benching of Duncan. I said "It's important to note that DG threw up brick after brick and let himself get pretty frazzled in that game. His 1-7 from the field was also pretty damaging in a game that close." That is what I'm saying. That's it. I haven't strayed from that point. I'm not sure how anybody could deny his offensive performance was damaging in Game 6 and 7. I hope that provides clarity on my position, but I fully expect you to respond by saying he was amazing in Games 1-5. lol



You're all over the place. I have made exactly zero claims or allusions about Bowen being better than Green. I'm not sure why you're once again trying to argue with me about something I never said. lol
Uhm since this thread is Green vs Bowen, one would assume that if you present an argument against a player then it means that you chose the other. Lol

And now, now you acknowledge the faults of others. After you just said that the big boys did show up. See who moved the goal posts right there?

Everyone knows that green disappeared in 6 and 7 but how can you put a blame on him when the team's best players didn't come through?

[JuneJive]

The two are only comparable because of the similar position they play.

We can put both under the 3 & D type.

But, comparing them is faulty logic due to many, many different variables.
There is only subjectivness to be expressed.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Uhm since this thread is Green vs Bowen, one would assume that if you present an argument against a player then it means that you chose the other. Lol

And now, now you acknowledge the faults of others. After you just said that the big boys did show up. See who moved the goal posts right there?

Everyone knows that green disappeared in 6 and 7 but how can you put a blame on him when the team's best players didn't come through?

100% Duncan came through the last two games. But yeah, the rest of his teammates didn't.

[100%duncan]

100% Duncan came through the last two games. But yeah, the rest of his teammates didn't.

Yup. But the poster I was arguing with made it seem like everyome but Danny showed up until his last post.

[The Reckoning]

green is too hot and cold. bowen was much more consistent.

[Frank Dux]

Uhm since this thread is Green vs Bowen, one would assume that if you present an argument against a player then it means that you chose the other. Lol

Sounds like you learned a valuable lesson about assuming. The other option for presenting an argument against a player (that apparently you're not aware of) is just having an honest, objective conversation. Ever tried that? I love DG and Bowen and I'm not sure at this point in DG's career who's better. You came into this thread with a weak attempt to troll people who voted for Bowen. I get it. It doesn't benefit you to acknowledge that DG's 2-19 in Games 6 and 7 significantly contributed to the Spurs losing those games. That's why you refuse to do it. Despite me staying on point with that one simple comment, it's why you continue to deflect to his performance in Games 1-5 and attempt to move the goal posts to the notion that any criticism of DG's performance equates to placing the entire blame for those losses on him. It doesn't work that way.


And now, now you acknowledge the faults of others. After you just said that the big boys did show up. See who moved the goal posts right there?

Everyone knows that green disappeared in 6 and 7 but how can you put a blame on him when the team's best players didn't come through?

Of course I acknowledge others' faults. Why wouldn't I? It doesn't change the fact that DG's 2-19 in Games 6 and 7 significantly contributed to us losing those games. These things aren't mutually exclusive. It only becomes an issue if you try to move the goal posts to "don't put all the blame on the guy I'm trying to defend in this thread because it undermines my trolling!!! :( " The best players, Duncan and Kawhi, did show up. Ginobili was Turnobili in Game 6 and Porker was underperformed in both games. But that doesn't mean that DG's disappearing act didn't significantly contribute to the losses. Make sense?

[diego]

I lost track of the past couple pages... I think a lot of us feel like bowen always came through with his 3 and D and kind of embodied the 2000 spurs' grind it out, no nonsense, I don't care what you think style. Danny green has a bigger role for this team, but at the same time, his inconsistency- especially in the playoffs (12, 13, 15, went cold in PO Losses)- makes it difficult to put him over bowen, even if he has shown more overall talent.

[bic50]

too* smh so illiterate. 22 posts and you still haven't given a good take :wakeup
Well you didn't need 7,633 posts to establish yourself as easily one of the dumbest posters on here. I cant tell if you're just trolling or just plain stupid with some of the garbage you post, you even quote idiotic takes as well. TheGreatFraud. Honestly what team do you really support? Its obviously not the spurs.

[dunkman]

The reality is that the Spurs were big-4 those days, including Bowen. He was much better then Green.

[Arcadian]

I'm shocked that Bowen is getting more votes. What the hell, people? This is pretty straightforward.

Offense: Green >>> Bowen
Defense: Bowen > Green
Overall: Green > Bowen

[spurraider21]

Offense: Green >>> Bowen
Ehh. They both catch and shoot

[100%duncan]

Sounds like you learned a valuable lesson about assuming. The other option for presenting an argument against a player (that apparently you're not aware of) is just having an honest, objective conversation. Ever tried that? I love DG and Bowen and I'm not sure at this point in DG's career who's better. You came into this thread with a weak attempt to troll people who voted for Bowen. I get it. It doesn't benefit you to acknowledge that DG's 2-19 in Games 6 and 7 significantly contributed to the Spurs losing those games. That's why you refuse to do it. Despite me staying on point with that one simple comment, it's why you continue to deflect to his performance in Games 1-5 and attempt to move the goal posts to the notion that any criticism of DG's performance equates to placing the entire blame for those losses on him. It doesn't work that way.



Of course I acknowledge others' faults. Why wouldn't I? It doesn't change the fact that DG's 2-19 in Games 6 and 7 significantly contributed to us losing those games. These things aren't mutually exclusive. It only becomes an issue if you try to move the goal posts to "don't put all the blame on the guy I'm trying to defend in this thread because it undermines my trolling!!! :( " The best players, Duncan and Kawhi, did show up. Ginobili was Turnobili in Game 6 and Porker was underperformed in both games. But that doesn't mean that DG's disappearing act didn't significantly contribute to the losses. Make sense?

No when you come into a thread you discuss the point of the thread, since when did you have internet?

Oh so if the people who chose green over bowen, who presented facts and stats are just trolling over those who picked bowen who have nothing more to offer than nostalgia and sweet memories of the past not acknowledging that the stats say otherwise and that he played with prime duncan and manu? Okay :lol

[Arcadian]

Ehh. They both catch and shoot

All-time record for 3s made in a Finals series...he can catch fire in a way that Bowen rarely or never did. He's also a better athlete, which makes him more competent at scoring in many situations. Bowen was once on the verge of being cut from the NBA and never being remembered by anyone. I'm glad that he found his niche with the Spurs, but that's got to mean something in this type of debate.

[kobyz]

I'm shocked that Bowen is getting more votes. What the hell, people? This is pretty straightforward.

Offense: Green >>> Bowen
Defense: Bowen > Green
Overall: Green > Bowen

What about leadership, intangibles?? And you forgot to write: Defense: Bowen > Green x10... Also Green will lose you titles more than he will win you, he's too hot and cold which is a bad intangible to have, cause it's a role that Spurs need stability the most instead of hot streaks...

[Mikeanaro]

All-time record for 3s made in a Finals series...he can catch fire in a way that Bowen rarely or never did. He's also a better athlete, which makes him more competent at scoring in many situations. Bowen was once on the verge of being cut from the NBA and never being remembered by anyone. I'm glad that he found his niche with the Spurs, but that's got to mean something in this type of debate.
He made the new record but also disappeared during the last 2 games so no ring, all those 5 hot games and the record were useless.
I disagree with Danny being the better athlete Bruce was quicker in lateral movements, how can Danny be more competent when he only have 2 offensive moves, the 3 and the hesitation that ends in some unreliable jump shot.
Danny was at the end of the Cavs roster too with no good future... was waived, Dennis Rodman was drafted at age 25, Manu was a #57 overall pick.
How can he be more athletic? He never jumped like this
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2286700/bruce-bowen-kick-o.gif
And I bet he cant jump like that even if you beg him.

[AFBlue]

Everyone trying to paint this as an easy choice is naive tbqh. Good thread topic to inspire debate. Still Bowen for me because Danny lacks the consistency Bruce showed night in and night out. But I think he can still change my mind.

[spurraider21]

All-time record for 3s made in a Finals series...he can catch fire in a way that Bowen rarely or never did. He's also a better athlete, which makes him more competent at scoring in many situations. Bowen was once on the verge of being cut from the NBA and never being remembered by anyone. I'm glad that he found his niche with the Spurs, but that's got to mean something in this type of debate.
Green was cut in the NBA a few times too. I agree that green is better offensively but to say >>> is a stretch

[kobyz]

And green delivered in 2 straight finals, we would have a b2b if Duncan was there to rebouns for the last play and Green couldve been fmvp.

And no you cannot do a player v player without stats. I bet Green would win 3 titles with prime duncan too

Fuck you! Green couldn't be, it was Duncan, Duncan, Duncan who the award been stolen for him, years later and i still can barely live because of it... don't try put them in the same sentence, you fuckind sorry ass clown!

[Obstructed_View]

I recorded and watched the 2005 finals game 7 from NBA TV last night. Holy fuck Bowen was a good defender. He just absolutely shut down Chauncey Billups. Plus he hit a massively clutch three when the game was tight. I think some of you have forgotten just how good he was. No defender in the NBA today moves his feet as well as Bowen did.

[dweaver99027]

Bowen if you don't have another very good stopper. Green if you've got a Kawhi guy at the other wing position.

[barbacoataco]

I recorded and watched the 2005 finals game 7 from NBA TV last night. Holy fuck Bowen was a good defender. He just absolutely shut down Chauncey Billups. Plus he hit a massively clutch three when the game was tight. I think some of you have forgotten just how good he was. No defender in the NBA today moves his feet as well as Bowen did.
Agree.

[barbacoataco]

Bowen hit a lot of clutch 3's in the playoffs. And over 40% every year. I'd rather have a consistent 3pt shooter than z streaky one, because you can play off of a cold shooter till they get hot.

[Chinook]

Bowen hit a lot of clutch 3's in the playoffs. And over 40% every year. I'd rather have a consistent 3pt shooter than z streaky one, because you can play off of a cold shooter till they get hot.

Big difference between being a streaky 35-percent shooter like Jamal Crawford and being a streaky 42-percent shooter like Green. Plus, Danny is much more consistent than people think.

[barbacoataco]

In 2015 Clippers series Green shot 30% and that was one of the main reasons they lost that series.

[Chinook]

In 2015 Clippers series Green shot 30% and that was one of the main reasons they lost that series.

Again with the whole Green having to carry the Spurs thing. I don't get how that's an argument people use for how Bowen is more important than Danny.

[Obstructed_View]

Big difference between being a streaky 35-percent shooter like Jamal Crawford and being a streaky 42-percent shooter like Green. Plus, Danny is much more consistent than people think.

I agree that Danny is more consistent than people think, which is why it's such a compliment to say Bowen was more consistent. It's simply not a slam against 28-year-old DG to say that he's not yet as good as 34-year-old Bruce was. It's a testament to how hard he's worked. Can't wait to see how much better he can get.

[Chinook]

I agree that Danny is more consistent than people think, which is why it's such a compliment to say Bowen was more consistent. It's simply not a slam against 28-year-old DG to say that he's not yet as good as 34-year-old Bruce was. It's a testament to how hard he's worked. Can't wait to see how much better he can get.

It's not a slam against Bruce either to say he was never as good as Green is now. I don't think people realize how well Danny's going to hold up in NBA history if he continues along this track. Dude may have a couple of franchise and league records by the end of it, and advanced stats love him. There are plenty of measures that say Danny is already at top-10 Spur. This is truly a golden era for Spurs historical talent, more than 2003 was.

[Hoops Czar]

It's not a slam against Bruce either to say he was never as good as Green is now. I don't think people realize how well Danny's going to hold up in NBA history if he continues along this track. Dude may have a couple of franchise and league records by the end of it, and advanced stats love him. There are plenty of measures that say Danny is already at top-10 Spur. This is truly a golden era for Spurs historical talent, more than 2003 was.

But, it is a slam against Bruce Bowen to call him one of the most overrated players in Spurs history and that his defense was a product of Tim Duncan.

[Obstructed_View]

It's not a slam against Bruce either to say he was never as good as Green is now.

Yeah it is. 2005 Bowen would be the best defender on the Spurs team today. Green is the third best defender on the Spurs today, fourth if 2005 Bowen were there, and fifth if 2005 Manu were there too. It's not a slam against Bruce to say that Green has far more upside at 28. Danny is an excellent player, one of my favorites, and I would have rated the offseason questionable had they signed Aldridge and lost Green. That's what he means to this team, IMO. They can't win ring 6 without him.

But Bowen's jersey is in the rafters for a reason.

[Obstructed_View]

But, it is a slam against Bruce Bowen to call him one of the most overrated players in Spurs history and that his defense was a product of Tim Duncan.

Did someone claiming to be a Spurs fan actually post that?

[Chinook]

But, it is a slam against Bruce Bowen to call him one of the most overrated players in Spurs history and that his defense was a product of Tim Duncan.

And to say Green is a system player who wouldn't be good on any other team. I'm glad we've covered slams and not-slams.

[Obstructed_View]

And to say Green is a system player who wouldn't be good on any other team. I'm glad we've covered slams and not-slams.

At this point, it's possible even Danny thinks that might be the case. EDIT: Not that he wouldn't be good, but he wouldn't be AS good. But it cuts both ways, as this is the team where his contributions mean the most. The Spurs have a system that maximizes his abilities, in many ways because it's a system they developed for players like Bowen.

[Chinook]

Yeah it is. 2005 Bowen would be the best defender on the Spurs team today.

I think if you put 2005 Bowen on this Spurs team without Pop's rapport with him, he'd struggle to get minutes. Even if his defense is better than anyone else's on the team (which is debatable and highly so), he is just way too limited offensively to survive in today's NBA.


But Bowen's jersey is in the rafters for a reason.

Yes, because he played in a era with three obvious HoFers and nothing else consistent.

[Chinook]

At this point, it's possible even Danny thinks that might be the case. EDIT: Not that he wouldn't be good, but he wouldn't be AS good. But it cuts both ways, as this is the team where his contributions mean the most. The Spurs have a system that maximizes his abilities, in many ways because it's a system they developed for players like Bowen.

ANY half-way decent team needs a guy with Green's skill-set, even teams that already have one. If anything, Green will be worse in SA than he would be for other teams, because he's fighting with his backup for minutes (since is backup is a HoFer and a lock to close games even though he shouldn't be) and didn't have a focal point on offense like he used to (though that way improve with LMA).

Danny is the fifth option in the starting lineup in SA. He could excel as the third option in the first unit of another team so long as that team had a good sixth man.

[Obstructed_View]

I think if you put 2005 Bowen on this Spurs team without Pop's rapport with him...
Umm, yes, if you suddenly made Pop dislike him, he wouldn't get minutes. At that point he was the best defender in the league, and Pop hadn't yet learned that he couldn't just plug Keith Bogans into that spot, so their relationship would have been fine.


Even if his defense is better than anyone else's on the team (which is debatable and highly so),
If they were playing the Lakers, Bowen checked Kobe. If they were playing the Mavs, Bowen checked Dirk. Debate all you want beyond that, but you'll be doing it by yourself.


he is just way too limited offensively to survive in today's NBA.
I'm trying really hard not to outright ridicule you for this statement. The only thing that's changed since Bowen retired is that defensive efficiency and the three pointer have become even more essential to championship teams. The 3 and D player has become what every team wants now, and Bowen basically invented it. There's no team in the league that wouldn't take a guy who can play shut-down defense against 4 positions and hit three pointers at a 40-50 percent clip in the playoffs.

[barbacoataco]

Yeah that's crazy to say Bowen couldn't play in today's NBA. There are plenty of defensive specialists who aren't eve as good as him playing for contending teams.

[DrSteffo]

I think if you put 2005 Bowen on this Spurs team without Pop's rapport with him, he'd struggle to get minutes. Even if his defense is better than anyone else's on the team (which is debatable and highly so), he is just way too limited offensively to survive in today's NB


You are a very good poster but this is just silly. Kawhi, Bowen, Green and Manu would give Pop and any other coach multiple orgasms tbh.

[Chinook]

Umm, yes, if you suddenly made Pop dislike him, he wouldn't get minutes. At that point he was the best defender in the league, and Pop hadn't yet learned that he couldn't just plug Keith Bogans into that spot, so their relationship would have been fine.

There's a big gap being Pop not liking Bowen and Pop not already having years of experience with him. What I'm saying now is that if 2005 Bowen showed up to camp as an unknown to Pop, he'd struggle to get minutes. There really wasn't anything ambiguous about what I said.


If they were playing the Lakers, Bowen checked Kobe. If they were playing the Mavs, Bowen checked Dirk. Debate all you want beyond that, but you'll be doing it by yourself.

Yeah, no offense, but there's an entire thread debating this. Hell, there are multiple threads on this site debating this. I'm not surprised you didn't know that, because you're still saying "Bowen checked Dirk" like Bruce was more than a speed bump in that series. I don't want to sound harsh, but I don't want to go through the same arguments that we all had pages ago. If you want to see my reasoning, you can check those posts and see. After that, if you have something specific to ask, I'll be happy to answer it.


I'm trying really hard not to outright ridicule you for this statement. The only thing that's changed since Bowen retired is that defensive efficiency and the three pointer have become even more essential to championship teams. The 3 and D player has become what every team wants now, and Bowen basically invented it. There's no team in the league that wouldn't take a guy who can play shut-down defense against 4 positions and hit three pointers at a 40-50 percent clip in the playoffs.

Bowen "invented" the 3/D role (he didn't, but whatever) for him to be able to survive in THAT NBA. In that NBA, it was okay to have wings that parked in the corner. Now, the only players who can get away with only shooting from the corner are bigs like Ibaka. Bowen was decent from the corner (not prolific by today's standards), but he was abysmal from other places around the arc (30 percent from what I've calculated). In Bowen's NBA, teams were still figuring out how to defend without helping off the corner. In today's league, defenses are much smarter and know how to not give up that rotation easily. And because Bruce couldn't really move along the arc, he'd be even easier to guard than he was then. Simply put, the spacing he provided back then would be less impactful in today's league. Maybe he gets credit for being a pioneer, but the game has evolved to require more than Bowen showed offensively. Maybe with his work ethic, he would have figured out how to do enough. But the gulf between him and Green is massive.

[Chinook]

2013 GAME HOT START IN 1ST 5 GAMES,AND CHOKE IN THE LAST 2 GAMES,2015 INVINSIBLE IN 1ST 6 GAMES

:rolleyes

[Chinook]

You are a very good poster but this is just silly. Kawhi, Bowen, Green and Manu would give Pop and any other coach multiple orgasms tbh.

I think Bowen would have a chance as a fourth wing. But he would be the FOURTH wing, which means he would struggle to get minutes. Think about if a guy with Bruce's skill-set were on the now. He would barely provide any spacing and couldn't handle the ball. Sure, he'd be a great defender, but that's not a consistent need on the bench. He wouldn't really fit in the rotation.

[dweaver99027]

Hypothetical- Had Bruce been playing with 2015 Tim instead of 2005 Tim would he be able to employ the same defensive style successfully ? And what about Danny with 2005 Tim?

[Chinook]

Hypothetical- Had Bruce been playing with 2015 Tim instead of 2005 Tim would he be able to employ the same defensive style successfully ? And what about Danny with 2005 Tim?

Well, there's a lot that goes into that. 2005 Tim was hurt during the playoffs. So I dunno how much more mobile he was than 2015 Tim. But Green with Prime Tim in the handcheck era would have been a BAMF. Bowen with Old Time in this finesse era would have had to adjust a lot about how he played defense.

[dweaver99027]

'2005 Tim' was more of a median estimate of 2003-2007 Tim's defensive ability. But I agree, Bowen used a lot of arms and thighs to bump his man out of his comfort zone, while DG is a no-touch, lateral movement defender.

[Gladney to see you]

Bowen helped the team create and Identity as much as anyone, so for that I am grateful. Green is a very good player but doesn't have the intangibles of Bowen. You won't hear, "Danny Green got in my head."

[Chinook]

Bowen helped the team create and Identity as much as anyone, so for that I am grateful. Green is a very good player but doesn't have the intangibles of Bowen. You won't hear, "Danny Green got in my head."

Sure, but the question is: What does that mean by itself? If two guys are equally adept at preventing positive possessions, but one is playing mindgames and the other is just contesting shots, playing passing lanes, etc., is there really any benefit to being disliked? Maybe not pissing off the competition is a good way to avoid giving them an edge.

[in2deep]

Bowen is one of the best defenders ever. Green can't hold his jockstrap.

Bowen all the way

[in2deep]

Bowen woulda shut down CP3 btw

[dweaver99027]

Bowen would have fouled out by halftime.

[HarlemHeat37]

Bowen woulda shut down CP3 btw

We already saw a series where he had to guard him, it wasn't pretty:lol..

[HarlemHeat37]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in Hell that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority:lol..

[Obstructed_View]

There's a big gap being Pop not liking Bowen and Pop not already having years of experience with him. What I'm saying now is that if 2005 Bowen showed up to camp as an unknown to Pop, he'd struggle to get minutes. There really wasn't anything ambiguous about what I said.
There's nothing ambiguous about it, it's just retarded. You added a random qualifier (Pop not knowing Bowen) that didn't make any sense and then your clarification (if he showed up to camp as an unknown) was just as stupid. If Bowen showed up without bones in his legs he'd be a bad player too, but it's not sensible to bring up. All things being equal except age, 2005 Bowen's a far better defender than anyone on the Spurs. He wasn't physically more gifted than Kawhi or DG, so they could certainly be that good someday. They certainly have the mindset and the work ethic to do it.


like Bruce was more than a speed bump in that series.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I didn't post that Bowen defended Dirk to refute anything you said, or mentioning a specific series (though I can guess what series you're referring to, and I'm sure your opinions on it probably provide a lot of laughs). I posted it to point out that Bowen was the go-to defender when Pop needed someone, which is testament to what a fucking incredible defender he was. Again, I love Danny Green, but if Pop needs someone shut down, he puts Kawhi on him, not Green. If Bowen were on the team with both of them, Bowen would get the defensive assignment ahead of both of them. Not a shot against either of them, as they're incredible defenders.



Bowen "invented" the 3/D role (he didn't, but whatever)
So when you're ready to give the name of who did, we'll all be here waiting. There's no discussion of the term without a mention of Bowen.


In that NBA, it was okay to have wings that parked in the corner. Now, the only players who can get away with only shooting from the corner are bigs like Ibaka. Bowen was decent from the corner (not prolific by today's standards), but he was abysmal from other places around the arc (30 percent from what I've calculated). In Bowen's NBA, teams were still figuring out how to defend without helping off the corner. In today's league, defenses are much smarter and know how to not give up that rotation easily. And because Bruce couldn't really move along the arc, he'd be even easier to guard than he was then. Simply put, the spacing he provided back then would be less impactful in today's league. Maybe he gets credit for being a pioneer, but the game has evolved to require more than Bowen showed offensively. Maybe with his work ethic, he would have figured out how to do enough.
So in the short five seasons since he left, the entire fucking league has adapted to defend the spots he was best from, teams have scrambled to find players that do exactly what he does, but he doesn't deserve any praise from you beyond 'maybe he was a pioneer'.



But the gulf between him and Green is massive.
From a 3 and D standpoint, you're correct, and Bowen's better. Green has a lot of room to improve, and I think he can become far more than just a 3 and D player. He didn't handle the ball any better than Bowen did a few years ago, and he's developed some really nice moves around the basket, and his handles are much better than they were.

[Frank Dux]

No when you come into a thread you discuss the point of the thread, since when did you have internet?

Are you saying that pointing out DG's 2-19 is not pertinent to the discussion going on this thread? Really? Are you in that much denial? It's just a reality worth noting that for some reason you refuse to acknowledge. You can still acknowledge that and argue that DG is better. That might actually help you come across as credible. And clearly I don't spend as much of my free time on the internet as you do, dork.


Oh so if the people who chose green over bowen, who presented facts and stats are just trolling over those who picked bowen who have nothing more to offer than nostalgia and sweet memories of the past not acknowledging that the stats say otherwise and that he played with prime duncan and manu? Okay

No, there are plenty of reasonable people presenting arguments in DG's favor, you're just not one of them. Your original post was lame attempt to ruffle feathers and that's why you can't acknowledge that DG's 2-19 significantly contributed to the losses in Games 6 and 7—it undermines your horribly played out MO.

And in response to the point about Duncan and Manu, DG gets to play with old Duncan (who still one of the best defensive bigs in the league), Kawhi (the current DPOY) and the deepest Spurs squad in the history of the team. Just something to think about.

[MaNu4Tres]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in Hell that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority:lol..

All of this.

[barbacoataco]

The revisionist history is the effort to forget that Bowen was universally regarded as the best perimeter defender of his era by people like Pop and Kobe. Now he's a guy who would be average at best because the level of play is so much higher than it was 7-10 years ago. That's why a Tim Duncan who is a shadow of his old self is still able to dominate the league.

[barbacoataco]

This idea that the league us so much better is ridiculous. It's better than it was in the 70's-80's, but not any better than the 2000's. The 2001 Lakers with prime Shaq and Kobe would with today's "hands off" rules. If anything there us more parity today top to bottom, but the elite teams have a hard time meeting salary cap and holding together Allstar rosters.

[Hoops Czar]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in Hell that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority:lol..

:lol Interesting. I can't speak for others but, when I talk about Green's inconsistencies, I'm talking about his defense. I can't understand why you went off on a tangent describing Bowen's ineptitude on offense. Bowen was a SF with a career 11.4 USG% and Green is a SG with a career 17.4 USG%. I think it's pretty clear who has/had more plays run for him. Anyone with half a brain knows Bowen wasn't much of an offensive asset other than his occasional spot up three's that were generated from collapsing defenses and double teams.

:lol But the bolded. you don't have to go back too far to recall a perimeter role player being treated like a major priority. See Kawhi Leonard on JJ Reddick. It's actually quite common to set up your defense to shutdown a particular role player that can light it up from behind the arc.

Let's not make this too complicated. Green is your basic 3 and D player who can't create his own shot and can't dribble through traffic but, is one of the more prolific and clutch three point shooters we have in the league today (not history of the NBA). Bowen wasn't used much at all on offense and he rarely ever had plays run specifically for him.

[timtonymanu]

This thread has managed to overrate Bruce Bowen while also underrating Danny Green. And I consider myself a huge Bowen homer. But a lot of these arguments are silly.

[Chinook]

There's nothing ambiguous about it, it's just retarded. You added a random qualifier (Pop not knowing Bowen) that didn't make any sense and then your clarification (if he showed up to camp as an unknown) was just as stupid. If Bowen showed up without bones in his legs he'd be a bad player too, but it's not sensible to bring up. All things being equal except age, 2005 Bowen's a far better defender than anyone on the Spurs. He wasn't physically more gifted than Kawhi or DG, so they could certainly be that good someday. They certainly have the mindset and the work ethic to do it.

Oh, so Bowen was better because he was. Great argument there. My point is that Pop will play players based on trust, but if Bowen showed up having to earn trust, his skills wouldn't carve out a rotation spot. Again, not a really hard point to get, and not trivial, seeing as you're proving my point that it's hard to separate Bowen's actual level of player with his reputation.


I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I didn't post that Bowen defended Dirk to refute anything you said, or mentioning a specific series (though I can guess what series you're referring to, and I'm sure your opinions on it probably provide a lot of laughs). I posted it to point out that Bowen was the go-to defender when Pop needed someone, which is testament to what a fucking incredible defender he was. Again, I love Danny Green, but if Pop needs someone shut down, he puts Kawhi on him, not Green. If Bowen were on the team with both of them, Bowen would get the defensive assignment ahead of both of them. Not a shot against either of them, as they're incredible defenders

The point is that Bowen DIDN'T defend Dirk well (meaning he wasn't effective, not that he didn't try). So it's really not a credit to his skill to argue that Pop put Bruce on him. That whole idea of Bowen being able to legitimately guard 1-4 was debunked early on. That you whip it out here like it's a new or even valid point just makes everyone have to go back and address it again. It's boring. Again, the idea that 'Pop loves him, and he's smarter than you so you're wrong' is a logical fallacy. If you have to rely on Pop's credibility to bolster your own, then you don't really have an argument.


So when you're ready to give the name of who did, we'll all be here waiting. There's no discussion of the term without a mention of Bowen.

Last time I checked, Bowen doesn't have the nickname '3D'.


So in the short five seasons since he left, the entire fucking league has adapted to defend the spots he was best from, teams have scrambled to find players that do exactly what he does, but he doesn't deserve any praise from you beyond 'maybe he was a pioneer'.

Because the league has adapted passed that. What he did isn't good enough anymore. It was barely good enough then, hence why he had to work so hard to do it. Maybe under the pressures of this NBA, Bowen could have done more. But there's no reason to assume that he'd be a dynamic shooter when he struggled so badly anywhere that wasn't the corner.


From a 3 and D standpoint, you're correct, and Bowen's better. Green has a lot of room to improve, and I think he can become far more than just a 3 and D player. He didn't handle the ball any better than Bowen did a few years ago, and he's developed some really nice moves around the basket, and his handles are much better than they were.

So another 'Bowen's better because he's better' argument. It's really almost inarguable that Green's offense is in another league than Bowen's, and despite your nostalgia and unwillingness to look at things objectively, Green is at least Bowen's peer in most defensive measures despite being in a league that's less friendly to defenders and despite not having one of the best defensive players in his prime backing him up. I get that you don't WANT to change your opinion and so won't. But that doesn't actually give the Bowen side any more merit.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Bowen - better defender.

Green - far better overall player.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yeah that's crazy to say Bowen couldn't play in today's NBA. There are plenty of defensive specialists who aren't eve as good as him playing for contending teams.

Tony Allen anyone. Allen was owning the GS before he got injured. And if he and Gasol didn't get injured, along with Conley getting even more injured, Memphis probably would have won that series.

Any team in the NBA would love to have 03-05 version of Bowen. He was hands down the best perimeter defender in the league and would be such even in today's NBA.

Bowen wasn't offensively limited. Spurs had Prime Duncan, Parker and Manu getting most of the touches. You had Horry, Barry and Finley as well. Bowen honestly was just the 7-8 offensive option on the team, and chipped in when needed.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Well, there's a lot that goes into that. 2005 Tim was hurt during the playoffs. So I dunno how much more mobile he was than 2015 Tim. But Green with Prime Tim in the handcheck era would have been a BAMF. Bowen with Old Time in this finesse era would have had to adjust a lot about how he played defense.

How do you know that, especially when the Spurs recently had Splitter, one of the best bigman defenders in the league and better than Nzar, Elson, Oberto, etc ever were. Splitter was a better defender than '03 Drob w/ back problems and on his last leg (not as good as a rebounder still, but better overall defender). So old a Duncan and prime Splitter equates to Prime Duncan and whoever else the Spur had playing next to him during the Bowen era of the Spurs.

I'll take it from Kobe who said Bowen has the BEST DEFENDER he ever faced. Quit judging Bowen from the 07-08 years when he was already 37-38 yo old. in '03-'05, Bowen was left on an Island most nights.

[Chinook]

How do you know that, especially when the Spurs recently had Splitter, one of the best bigman defenders in the league and better than Nzar, Elson, Oberto, etc ever were. Splitter was a better defender than '03 Drob w/ back problems and on his last leg (not as good as a rebounder still, but better overall defender). So old a Duncan and prime Splitter equates to Prime Duncan and whoever else the Spur had playing next to him during the Bowen era of the Spurs.

I'll take it from Kobe who said Bowen has the BEST DEFENDER he ever faced. Quit judging Bowen from the 07-08 years when he was already 37-38 yo old. in '03-'05, Bowen was left on an Island most nights.

Again, it's not an actual point to say, "So and so said Bowen was better, so he was." And Tim is an all-time great, and in his prime, he was possibly the best defensive big ever. Splitter is one of the best defenders in the league when healthy, but he wasn't Prime Duncan. And Old Tim is great when he's in a phonebooth, but he's abysmal at giving help away from the paint.

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

People talking about Bruce while having no clue about him...

Stick to trolling, kid, you don't have the level to do more.

This. Green is an excellent defender, and one of the best I've ever seen at defending in the open court, but Bruce routinely shut down virtually everyone he was put on. The guy had phenomenally quick feet, excellent anticipation, and played one of the greatest games of psychological warfare the NBA has ever seen.

Still, no reason Danny can't join him up there if he plays his career out well.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Again, it's not an actual point to say, "So and so said Bowen was better, so he was." And Tim is an all-time great, and in his prime, he was possibly the best defensive big ever. Splitter is one of the best defenders in the league when healthy, but he wasn't Prime Duncan. And Old Tim is great when he's in a phonebooth, but he's abysmal at giving help away from the paint.

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

I disagree with this. Guys like Ariza, Allen, Bradley, etc. and last year Kawhi, got away with this style of play because they are known well defender. The refs are biased in this regards. If your a no name player, they will call tick tack fouls on you. But once you have established yourself in the league as a premier defender, they allow said person more contact in defending.

Prime example was the '13 and '14. The first finals, Kawhi couldn't even breathe on Lebron before the refs called a foul. But the 2nd finals, Kawhi played him the same and probably even a little more physical and the refs didn't call those same ticky tack fouls.

Bowen did a lot of bumping, but he was always squared up and in front of his man. Which technically isn't a foul as long as you beat your man to the spot. Allen/Bradley play defense the same way Bowen did so yes, that kinda of defense is still allowed. But the thing is, very few players can play defense at that level nowadays, where you are constantly moving your feet and staying in front of your man.

[timtonymanu]

WHAT DID DANNY PROVE YET ???????

Was a game away from winning Finals MVP or at least had a strong case. He's the best PG defender in the league but I'm sure people will scoff at that comment based on the thread asking how much the Spurs should pay him. Shot over 45% from 3 in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014.

Again, I'm a huge Bowen fan but I actually prefer Danny Green over him if we're talking who's better overall.

[Chinook]

I disagree with this. Guys like Ariza, Allen, Bradley, etc. and last year Kawhi, got away with this style of play because they are known well defender. The refs are biased in this regards. If your a no name player, they will call tick tack fouls on you. But once you have established yourself in the league as a premier defender, they allow said person more contact in defending.

A handcheck is illegal no matter what. It's literally the way the Spurs hack, because it's easy to see and doesn't really bother the guy getting fouled. No one is hand-checking their guys in today's league consistently. You're right that body contact is often up for debate, but that's not hand contact (or foot contact in Bowen's case). And if you don't think Green gets a ton of respect for contact, I don't know what to tell you.


Prime example was the '13 and '14. The first finals, Kawhi couldn't even breathe on Lebron before the refs called a foul. But the 2nd finals, Kawhi played him the same and probably even a little more physical and the refs didn't call those same ticky tack fouls.

Leonard drew a lot of ticky-tack calls from Wade that year. Dwyane is just like Harden and Durant in that regard. Lebron played so close to the basket that he didn't really draw that many cheap fouls either year.


Bowen did a lot of bumping, but he was always squared up and in front of his man. Which technically isn't a foul as long as you beat your man to the spot. Allen/Bradley play defense the same way Bowen did so yes, that kinda of defense is still allowed. But the thing is, very few players can play defense at that level nowadays, where you are constantly moving your feet and staying in front of your man

It depends. Players hardly ever get away with that on Harden. It's not a foul to stop a guy from driving by beating him to a spot, but if that guy goes into a shooting motion while you're moving and hits you, that's free throws. In addition to the rules changing, players have gotten better at taking advantage of those rules. That doesn't even mention that the game being played farther from the basket means that contact is often more noticeable when it occurs.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Here is a guy who plays defense pretty identical to Bowen in today's NBA. When I first saw Bradley play in his rookie season, I knew and said he was going to be the best defensive PG in this league. And boy is he ever. I love Green, but he is not this good. This is Bowen level type of defense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KbsXgIqgy0

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/04/boston_celtics_avery_bradley_b.html

And to the person that said media awards to matter too much, in Bradley's case, I would say it's the case. Like he said in the article, the guy probably is the best ball on ball defender in the league, much like Bowen was back in the day.

[Chinook]

If that's what you think Bowen's defense looked like, I'm not sure you remember Bruce at all. And this is not to mean that Bowen was better or worse than Avery. It's just that's not what Bowen was like at all.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

A handcheck is illegal no matter what. It's literally the way the Spurs hack, because it's easy to see and doesn't really bother the guy getting fouled. No one is hand-checking their guys in today's league consistently. You're right that body contact is often up for debate, but that's not hand contact (or foot contact in Bowen's case). And if you don't think Green gets a ton of respect for contact, I don't know what to tell you.



Leonard drew a lot of ticky-tack calls from Wade that year. Dwyane is just like Harden and Durant in that regard. Lebron played so close to the basket that he didn't really draw that many cheap fouls either year.



It depends. Players hardly ever get away with that on Harden. It's not a foul to stop a guy from driving by beating him to a spot, but if that guy goes into a shooting motion while you're moving and hits you, that's free throws. In addition to the rules changing, players have gotten better at taking advantage of those rules. That doesn't even mention that the game being played farther from the basket means that contact is often more noticeable when it occurs.

Go watch the Bradley video. Hand checking has been illegal before Bowen even joined the Spurs. Bruce just has super quick hands and feet like another guy named Bruce, where he had the ability to stay in front of almost anyone in his prime

Green guarded Wade, whose was injured as well. Most of those fouls came off Lebron. I watched the series. A couple were Wade but most came from guarding Lebron. And that doesn't matter. The fact is they were ticky tack crap that the refs didn't call on Kwahi once he established himself in the league as a premier defender.

No, the league changed the rule or clarified it that if a defensive player is at the spot and jumps straight up and the offensive player JUMPS into that player, no foul is called. Harden, like KA, are great at juking guys to jump AT THEM. If you Jump straight up, its no a foul. But these guys jump at them and all the offensive player has to do is make contact at that point.

And here is a good clip of Bowen defense. Notice how after every pick, he recovers and is still able to contest almost every shot. Same can't be said for Green, well at least not at this point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l_nM-WH3qQ

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

If that's what you think Bowen's defense looked like, I'm not sure you remember Bruce at all. And this is not to mean that Bowen was better or worse than Avery. It's just that's not what Bowen was like at all.

Go watch the vid I just posted. Very similar as Bruce stuck to his man like white on rice. I remember Bowen's defense quite vividly. And Green is not close to being as good as Bowen. Green is very good, but Bowen's defense was legendary at times during his prime.

[Chinook]

Go watch the vid I just posted. Very similar as Bruce stuck to his man like white on rice. I remember Bowen's defense quite vividly. And Green is not close to being as good as Bowen. Green is very good, but Bowen's defense was legendary at times during his prime.

I watched the entire vid. You apparently didn't, since you said that Bradley and Bowen both defended by beating their men to the spot, when Avery didn't do that more than once in the video. Instead, he kept getting chase-down blocks and reaching steals. That simply wasn't Bowen, as the "Bruce was better than his number suggest" crowd can tell you.

Again, if you want to believe Green is not as good as Bowen was, no one can stop you. But your evidence simply hasn't been up to snuff.

[Chinook]

Go watch the Bradley video. Hand checking has been illegal before Bowen even joined the Spurs. Bruce just has super quick hands and feet like another guy named Bruce, where he had the ability to stay in front of almost anyone in his prime

Serious question: Do you know what hand-checking is?


Green guarded Wade, whose was injured as well. Most of those fouls came off Lebron. I watched the series. A couple were Wade but most came from guarding Lebron. And that doesn't matter. The fact is they were ticky tack crap that the refs didn't call on Kwahi once he established himself in the league as a premier defender.

Just everything you "watched", I don't think you looked at it very closely.


No, the league changed the rule or clarified it that if a defensive player is at the spot and jumps straight up and the offensive player JUMPS into that player, no foul is called. Harden, like KA, are great at juking guys to jump AT THEM. If you Jump straight up, its no a foul. But these guys jump at them and all the offensive player has to do is make contact at that point.

The league made that ruling ... and it had almost no effect on how officials called those plays. And if you think it's natural to both beat a guy to a spot (in the way that Bruce did) and jump straight up, then I don't know what to say.


And here is a good clip of Bowen defense. Notice how after every pick, he recovers and is still able to contest almost every shot. Same can't be said for Green, well at least not at this point.

It's called "going under the screen". Those are open shots all day against KD and Curry. Though that's exactly the way you want to play Kobe, and Bowen deserves his due for being great on him.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I watched the entire vid. You apparently didn't, since you said that Bradley and Bowen both defended by beating their men to the spot, when Avery didn't do that more than once in the video. Instead, he kept getting chase-down blocks and reaching steals. That simply wasn't Bowen, as the "Bruce was better than his number suggest" crowd can tell you.

Again, if you want to believe Green is not as good as Bowen was, no one can stop you. But your evidence simply hasn't been up to snuff.

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76SsXllkhg

And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

[Chinook]

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.

Green is one of the top-two transition defenders in the game. If you're going to actually sit then and say that chase-down blocks are something Bowen has over Danny, it's pretty clear why I keep find a ton of fault in your reasoning.


And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green made exactly one defensive mistake in that sequence, which was going under the Davis screen on Fredette's second three. He allowed two additional scores where he closed hard to prevent the threes. If Jimmer is going to drive into the teeth of your defense and score on you, that's a much bigger issue than what Green did.

But again, it doesn't surprise me that you would "watch" this and come to an erroneous conclusion.


Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't disagree. Bowen was a great athlete. But more people use that as an excuse for Bruce than as a pejorative. Green isn't as quick as Bowen was, but his anticipation is better.


Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

Again, if you want to believe that, I can't and don't care to stop you. But seriously have something more substantive than this.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Serious question: Do you know what hand-checking is?



Just everything you "watched", I don't think you looked at it very closely.



The league made that ruling ... and it had almost no effect on how officials called those plays. And if you think it's natural to both beat a guy to a spot (in the way that Bruce did) and jump straight up, then I don't know what to say.



It's called "going under the screen". Those are open shots all day against KD and Curry. Though that's exactly the way you want to play Kobe, and Bowen deserves his due for being great on him.

Yet, despite going under those screens, Bowen still contested almost every 3 Kobe. He played that way against Allen, VC, Van Horn, Dirk, Marion, etc. I believe for his career, Bruce held players to just under 30% 3p shooting. And you are talking about guys that were high 30's low 40 % 3pt shooters for their careers.

What's funny about your comment, Pop PUTS KAWHI on KD and Curry, NOT GREEN, I wonder why. Green does great job shutting down spot shooters like Thompson and such. But guys with handles like Curry, Paul, Harden, etc. that come off the pnr a lot, Green gets beat pretty bad at times.

[Chinook]

Pop PUTS KAWHI on KD and Curry, NOT GREEN

Never say you watch games anymore after making that comment. Like seriously, if you even watched one game recently against OKC and GS, you'd know you were wrong.

You're doing more harm than good to the Bowen cause at this point.

[Hoops Czar]

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76SsXllkhg

And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

You'd be surprised how often scrubs go off on Green but when Bowen let a future HOF'er in his prime like Dirk or Nash go off on him, he's considered overrated. When Bowen contests a shot and it goes in, it's considered bad defense. When Green is out of position and the opposing player he's guarding misses a wide open shot, it's considered good defense according to box score geniuses. Green is good but, he's way too inconsistent to be breathing in Bowen's air space.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Green made one mistake. No its not that. Its just that Green isn't great guarding players with good handles. That is why Jimmer juked him to get a few open looks.

That is why the rockets have been a thorn on the Spurs side of late. Because Harden own Greens. And that's the difference b/n Bowen and Green. Bowen could stop and contain players with excellent handles consistently, Green cannot.

Bowen would completely shut down just spot up shooters like Peja and Marion. Peja was avg 23 ppg then dropped to 8 ppg once Bowen was one him in '08 series. Peja was avg like 18 ppg that season and in the playoffs. Marion as I mentioned before, was a 20 ppg scorer, only avg 7 ppg against Bowen. Green does a very good job of containing these types of players, but never on this level.

Name 1 series where an opponent numbers dropped that drastically with Green as the primary defender. And I mentioned before, Ray Allen was the only player not to have a huge drop statistically with Bowen defending him. His numbers were down, but just not a huge steep as every other players were.

[Chinook]

Green made one mistake. No its not that. Its just that Green isn't great guarding players with good handles. That is why Jimmer juked him to get a few open looks.

I can't see how to explain this other than saying you simply don't know how defense works in basketball.


That is why the rockets have been a thorn on the Spurs side of late. Because Harden own Greens. And that's the difference b/n Bowen and Green. Bowen could stop and contain players with excellent handles consistently, Green cannot.

This "handles" line of reasoning is awful. Green is the best PG defender on the team. Do you think it's because none of them can handle the ball?


Bowen would completely shut down just spot up shooters like Peja and Marion. Peja was avg 23 ppg then dropped to 8 ppg once Bowen was one him in '08 series. Peja was avg like 18 ppg that season and in the playoffs. Marion as I mentioned before, was a 20 ppg scorer, only avg 7 ppg against Bowen. Green does a very good job of containing these types of players, but never on this level.

Wait, so was Bowen ALWAYS on the best scorer like you said or was he not? And since when are those the handles guys in league history?


Name 1 series where an opponent numbers dropped that drastically with Green as the primary defender.

Curry shot 10 percent against Green in 2013 before Steph got hurt. He shot way higher against everyone else on the team. This has already been asked and answered in this very thread.


And I mentioned before, Ray Allen was the only player not to have a huge drop statistically with Bowen defending him.

Well him Dirk and Nash and probably others whose performances we haven't really looked into yet. But keep on keeping on, I guess.

[Chinook]

KD: .92 PPP against Green in the WCF
Westbrook: .82 PPP against Green in the WCF.

Looks like a huge drop in efficiency to me.

EDIT: I'll calculate the non-Spurs numbers later. But those are abysmal number for top players.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Never say you watch games anymore after making that comment. Like seriously, if you even watched one game recently against OKC and GS, you'd know you were wrong.

You're doing more harm than good to the Bowen cause at this point.

Green was on Durant for like one game. Green occasionally guard Curry now, but if you look at last year, Kawhi was the primary guy to guard both. Green is situational but not the PRIMARY defender.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPkFLIvqWmw

This video shows who Green guards against GSW. Notice how he did IMO an excellent job guarding Klay for most of this game. But only guarded Curry in one offensive session on this film. This is impact of KAWHI over Green. Kawhi was just coming back from injury and barely played that game and the Spurs get spanked. Next time the Spurs play GSW, Kawhi is fully healthy, guarding Curry, and the Spurs spank the Warriors, handing them the worse defeat of the season last year. And here is the other video of the Spurs handing GSW their 2nd worse defeat of the season after playing the Clips the night before at the Forum. That is the power and impact of Kawhi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlNB3nOsBE

[Chinook]

Green was on Durant for like one game. Green occasionally guard Curry now, but if you look at last year, Kawhi was the primary guy to guard both. Green is situational but not the PRIMARY defender.

Green guarded both Durant and Curry down the stretch in the playoffs. If "situational" means at the most important times, sure.

As far as the vids go, Kawhi barely guarded Curry either time.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I can't see how to explain this other than saying you simply don't know how defense works in basketball.



This "handles" line of reasoning is awful. Green is the best PG defender on the team. Do you think it's because none of them can handle the ball?



Wait, so was Bowen ALWAYS on the best scorer like you said or was he not? And since when are those the handles guys in league history?



Curry shot 10 percent against Green in 2013 before Steph got hurt. He shot way higher against everyone else on the team. This has already been asked and answered in this very thread.



Well him Dirk and Nash and probably others whose performances we haven't really looked into yet. But keep on keeping on, I guess.

Wow, I said Peja and Marion were spot up shooters and Bowen completely own these types of players. Please read again. And those two are Bowen's position of SF, with Marion being a combo forward. Name one player that Green completely shut down like this and please show the actual stats, not some stupid %. 23 to 8 ppg and 20 to 7 ppg, something like this.

Curry didn't shoot 10 percent against Green. He shot 35% from 3 in that series and 40% fg. So you are saying he shot 10% against Green, and like 70% against everyone else. Green didn't shut down Curry, he did an excellent job defending him when he did, but he didn't shut him down. Curry still had a decent 2.5:1 TO ratio. So it's not like Bowen, who put guys in the negative.

I know you think Green is better than Bowen, but he isn't and Bowen has the awards, the titles and other players and their own coach saying otherwise.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Green guarded both Durant and Curry down the stretch in the playoffs. If "situational" means at the most important times, sure.

As far as the vids go, Kawhi barely guarded Curry either time.

Kawhi guarded him in April and the Spurs completely spanked the Warriors. Kawhi guarded him quite a few times in the Nov game, but as I said, it was like one of his first games back from injury in the game in Feb and he hardly played that game.

Green is a very good defender and versatile at that. I am not refuting this which is why I am glad the Spurs retained him. But he is not better than Bowen. And I can't believe the OP got people thinking otherwise.

[Obstructed_View]

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but Bowen won two titles AFTER hand checking was eliminated in 2004-2005, playing against guys like Carmelo, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, and Lebron James in the playoffs. The defense Bowen played is the defense Pop has taught for years, which is to defend with your feet, show your hands, and keep your man in the middle of your chest.

[hater]

Lmao scrub green being compared to Bruce

:lmao immature spurs fans

[Chinook]

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but Bowen won two titles AFTER hand checking was eliminated in 2004-2005, playing against guys like Carmelo, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, and Lebron James in the playoffs. The defense Bowen played is the defense Pop has taught for years, which is to defend with your feet, show your hands, and keep your man in the middle of your chest.

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bbpCL1mKV4

But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

[Obstructed_View]

Last time I checked, Bowen doesn't have the nickname '3D'.

It's entirely possible that this is the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted. Dennis Scott's nickname was 3D because he shot threes and his first name starts with a D. He didn't play defense. He was not known for defense. Again, if you google the three and D players, 99 percent of them mention Bowen as a pioneer of the position.


Because the league has adapted passed that. What he did isn't good enough anymore.
The league has adapted specifically because of him. What he did is what everyone does now. As I mentioned, the rules are exactly the same as they were in 2005.


It was barely good enough then, hence why he had to work so hard to do it.
He had to work so hard to do it because he didn't have the talent to be in the NBA otherwise. It's the same path many other players have taken to stick in the NBA. One of those guys who has had to work so hard is none other than Danny Green. He didn't show up being able to shoot and to defend.


Maybe under the pressures of this NBA, Bowen could have done more. But there's no reason to assume that he'd be a dynamic shooter when he struggled so badly anywhere that wasn't the corner.
He shot 40-50 percent from the corners. That's fucking elite. He was as good or better than anyone in the entire league from that spot. He shot 39 percent from three point range for his career, so it's kind of hard to make an argument that he struggled badly anywhere on the perimeter.


It's really almost inarguable that Green's offense is in another league than Bowen's,
But it's not inarguable, it's pretty clear that Danny Green's offense, though showing signs of surpassing Bowen sooner rather than later, isn't really as huge a difference maker as you claim.


Green is at least Bowen's peer in most defensive measures despite being in a league that's less friendly to defenders
Since that's been debunked, we'll ignore it.


and despite not having one of the best defensive players in his prime backing him up.
http://jocksandstilettojill.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/NBA-KawhiLeonard-DPOY.jpg


I get that you don't WANT to change your opinion and so won't. But that doesn't actually give the Bowen side any more merit.
I fully hope for my opinion to change. Danny Green is an essential part of the Spurs team. He's young and improving, has the upside to be vastly better than Bowen on offense, and he's a winner with a winning attitude. When he helps the Spurs win three titles in five years I'm sure we'll be ready to revisit this conversation.

The only real difference in this conversation is that one of us has to make up lies and try to tear down the other player in order to try to make his argument. I think Danny Green is a great player. He's just not as good as Bowen. Yet.

[Obstructed_View]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bbpCL1mKV4

But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

So you posted a video of a game where McGrady scored 26 points on 25 shots and the Rockets lost by 13. Bowen scored 11 points, shot .600 from three point range, and had two personal fouls in 37 minutes.

The reason Bowen wasn't hand checking is because it was illegal. Guys that hand check post 2005 don't finish games against hall of fame scorers with two fouls.

[Chinook]

So you posted a video of a game where McGrady scored 26 points on 25 shots and the Rockets lost by 13. Bowen scored 11 points, shot .600 from three point range, and had two personal fouls in 37 minutes.

The reason Bowen wasn't hand checking is because it was illegal. Guys that hand check post 2005 don't finish games against hall of fame scorers with two fouls.

He DID hand-check in that game and just wasn't called for it. Just because there was a rule change doesn't mean that he didn't do it. The evidence is totally in the vid to see.

[Obstructed_View]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

I don't remember Bowen chasing down a lot of steals. He didn't play defense that way, which is why a lot of people, some on this board, don't seem to respect what a difference-maker his defense was. His advanced stats would certainly be better than they are had he gone for steals and blocks, but he didn't get his ego involved, which is a big reason why he was so effective at covering the best players in the world. Deion Sanders didn't get a ton of picks when he was with the Cowboys, you just parked him over there and he'd shut down a side of the field for the other team. That's what Bowen did. You were okay with McGrady going for 30 if he had to take a shitload of shots to do it, because the rest of the team couldn't shoot a high enough percentage to make up for his missed shots, especially if he wasn't going to the line.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bbpCL1mKV4

But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

I didn't say that, I said that they similarly in that the stucked to their guy no matter what. Bradley only avg. like 1 spg much like Bowen did. But when their guy got out in front of them, they always chase their defender down. Bowen was not a hand checking defender. Obstruct said it best that and I like said Bowen always moved his feet and stayed squarely in front of his defender. Bowen would literally get bumped like 20+ time a game square in the chest by his defender.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP5preraY18

Guys like Carter, Kobe, Lebron, etc. would throw the shoulder, elbows, headbutts etc into Bowen chest night in and night out. And have you ever seen Green get into someone head like this.

[Chinook]

It's entirely possible that this is the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted. Dennis Scott's nickname was 3D because he shot threes and his first name starts with a D. He didn't play defense. He was not known for defense. Again, if you google the three and D players, 99 percent of them mention Bowen as a pioneer of the position.

Were you the one who tried to argue two years ago that LMA was one of the best stretch-fours in the league because Google said so? I'm really starting to think that was you. Even if you weren't the one, you're doing the same thing. "People agree with me," is NOT a vaild argument. It doesn't prove the correctness of your point, only that other people hold it.


The league has adapted specifically because of him. What he did is what everyone does now. As I mentioned, the rules are exactly the same as they were in 2005.

First, you're concatenating two different ideas about the league adapting (defensively with offensively). Again, though, even accepting the idea that Bruce pioneered 3/D players, it doesn't mean he'd be the best at it now, or even passable. That's like saying Bill Russel was the best outlet passer because he was the one who made it famous.


He had to work so hard to do it because he didn't have the talent to be in the NBA otherwise. It's the same path many other players have taken to stick in the NBA. One of those guys who has had to work so hard is none other than Danny Green. He didn't show up being able to shoot and to defend.

Yeah, and he reached his ceiling about as fully as any role-player ever has. So the idea that he could do more is ludicrous. He was atrocious from the non-corner three. Danny isn't. Non-corner threes are better for spacing than corner threes, and the ability to shoot both is even more valuable. Hence why they aren't in the zip code offensively, despite Bowen "inventing" 3/D.


He shot 40-50 percent from the corners. That's fucking elite. He was as good or better than anyone in the entire league from that spot. He shot 39 percent from three point range for his career, so it's kind of hard to make an argument that he struggled badly anywhere on the perimeter.

He shot 30 percent from the non-corner three, so it's really easy to make the argument. Bowen for his Spurs' career is a 42.4-percent corner three shooter (he never got near 50 percent even though Danny was 55 percent from one of the corners last season). Green is 42.6 percent as a Spur from that position, while being 42 percent from the non-corner three. Totally doesn't make a difference...


But it's not inarguable, it's pretty clear that Danny Green's offense, though showing signs of surpassing Bowen sooner rather than later, isn't really as huge a difference maker as you claim.

You've presented absolutely no argument for there being no difference between their offensive impacts. There have been quite a few arguments to the contrary in this thread, even from people thinking they're supporting Bowen by using those arguments.


Since that's been debunked, we'll ignore it.

It hasn't been debunked at all. Your idea that Bruce stopped hand-checking (and that the NBA immediately called every instance of hand-checking) simply because of the rule change HAS been debunked.


[Kawhi pic]

So Leonard's Prime Tim now, is he?


I fully hope for my opinion to change. Danny Green is an essential part of the Spurs team. He's young and improving, has the upside to be vastly better than Bowen on offense, and he's a winner with a winning attitude. When he helps the Spurs win three titles in five years I'm sure we'll be ready to revisit this conversation.

When Danny gets a top-five GOAT candidate and two other HoFers in their primes to run with him, then I'll consider your rings argument remotely valid.


The only real difference in this conversation is that one of us has to make up lies and try to tear down the other player in order to try to make his argument. I think Danny Green is a great player. He's just not as good as Bowen. Yet.

You're the one who used false arguments over and over again and can't seem to understand that the NBA defensive culture is completely different from the on-the-book NBA rule changes.

[Obstructed_View]

He DID hand-check in that game and just wasn't called for it. Just because there was a rule change doesn't mean that he didn't do it. The evidence is totally in the vid to see.

I just watched the entire video and there wasn't a single hand check by Bowen in the game. Forearm on the back in the post is completely legal, and touching a guy who's got the ball is not a hand check if you don't impede progress. Go pull up a video of this year's finals, and defenders touch each other exactly the same amount. Bowen was an effective defender in two of the first three championships after the rule was changed. If Bowen defended with his hands, as you say, wouldn't his personal foul rate per 36 have gone up? It didn't. Bowen was THE MOST TARGETED defender in the league because so many players complained that he was dirty, yet his personal foul rate per 36 went up by 0.2 in the first two years after the rules were changed.

BTW, the Rockets had 60 points with ten minutes to go, and finished the game with 70 points. Then the video ended. Defense not shown.

[Chinook]

I don't remember Bowen chasing down a lot of steals. He didn't play defense that way, which is why a lot of people, some on this board, don't seem to respect what a difference-maker his defense was. His advanced stats would certainly be better than they are had he gone for steals and blocks, but he didn't get his ego involved, which is a big reason why he was so effective at covering the best players in the world. Deion Sanders didn't get a ton of picks when he was with the Cowboys, you just parked him over there and he'd shut down a side of the field for the other team. That's what Bowen did. You were okay with McGrady going for 30 if he had to take a shitload of shots to do it, because the rest of the team couldn't shoot a high enough percentage to make up for his missed shots, especially if he wasn't going to the line.

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?

[Chinook]

I just watched the entire video and there wasn't a single hand check by Bowen in the game. Forearm on the back in the post is completely legal, and touching a guy who's got the ball is not a hand check if you don't impede progress. Go pull up a video of this year's finals, and defenders touch each other exactly the same amount. Bowen was an effective defender in two of the first three championships after the rule was changed. If Bowen defended with his hands, as you say, wouldn't his personal foul rate per 36 have gone up? It didn't. Bowen was THE MOST TARGETED defender in the league because so many players complained that he was dirty, yet his personal foul rate per 36 went up by 0.2 in the first two years after the rules were changed.

BTW, the Rockets had 60 points with ten minutes to go, and finished the game with 70 points. Then the video ended. Defense not shown.

Actually watch when McGrady drives (which is when hand-checking would get called), and tell me Bruce isn't pushing him? And his attempts to get open when Bowen his literally grabbing his jersey?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?

Bowen fought through screens but he was so quick he mostly went under them as the Big would hedge until Bowen recovered. And notice Bowen always had his arms up to deny the entry pass inside to the big if he rolled to the basket and to contest the shot if the shooter did pull up.

Bowen was an awesome defender and extremely intelligent one at that. Kobe even said that Bowen was the only defender he needed screens to get open most of the time. And sometimes the Lakers even set double screens to get Kobe open.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC5PamjFwwI

I wrote the above comment before even watch this vid, but Bruce explains his style of defense in a nutshell. Notice how when he funneled guys to the Spurs big, he ALWAYS kept his arms up to deny the outlet passes. Bowen had perfect technique in his defense and it was on display nightly.

[Arcadian]

Green is also a better shot blocker. He's had some epic blocks in the last 2-3 seasons...one of the best shot blocking guards I've ever seen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbILX-4B7v0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGYOsP4HeeY

He almost made Lebron cry on this one :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgAbo6IJB_A

[Obstructed_View]

Were you the one who tried to argue two years ago that LMA was one of the best stretch-fours in the league because Google said so? I'm really starting to think that was you. Even if you weren't the one, you're doing the same thing. "People agree with me," is NOT a vaild argument. It doesn't prove the correctness of your point, only that other people hold it.
I think there was a discussion about what defines a stretch 4, and someone idiotically stated that Lamarcus wasn't one, which is almost as stupid as your refusal to give Bowen any credit for pioneering the 3 and D role.. At some point, when people are rejecting a simple definition, like a 3 and D or a stretch 4, you simply have to go to a source to try to nail it down. Since there's not really a dictionary at a library that contains recent basketball terms, I tried to give you a chance to go look at the discussions about 3 and D players that all show the genesis of the role being Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Your response was to tell me about his nickname. Either you're just really really fucking stupid or you're just too stubborn to accept how wrong you are on this discussion, no matter how much evidence is produced to confirm it.


First, you're concatenating two different ideas about the league adapting (defensively with offensively).
No, I'm not. Bowen's impact as both a defender and three point shooter are relevant to this discussion. He wasn't a one-way player. His three point shooting was a key. He was elite at both roles, which is why he's a pioneer.


Again, though, even accepting the idea that Bruce pioneered 3/D players, it doesn't mean he'd be the best at it now, or even passable. That's like saying Bill Russel was the best outlet passer because he was the one who made it famous.
You're really spending too much time going off on this tangent about Bowen being the best defender on today's Spurs team. Your saying that Bowen wouldn't be passable now, even if it were true, is like saying that Bill Russell wasn't a good player when he played because teams have learned over the last 50 years how to game plan for all of the things he did, and again, I don't think you're that stupid. You said that the rules allowed Bowen to dominate, which again, isn't true. You're welcome to reject my assertion that his defense was so good that it would make him a great defender today, but that's not the sum total of my argument. It's not even the discussion that people are voting on. It was a hypothetical I made to show how good I think Bowen's defense was.



Yeah, and he reached his ceiling about as fully as any role-player ever has. So the idea that he could do more is ludicrous. He was atrocious from the non-corner three. Danny isn't. Non-corner threes are better for spacing than corner threes, and the ability to shoot both is even more valuable. Hence why they aren't in the zip code offensively, despite Bowen "inventing" 3/D.
Your continued fabrications are becoming tiring. He was not atrocious from anywhere. :lol at your spacing argument, which is completely incorrect. Pop's offense relies most strongly on the corner three. I'd tell you to Google it, but you'll get annoyed at someone showing you evidence.


He shot 30 percent from the non-corner three, so it's really easy to make the argument. Bowen for his Spurs' career is a 42.4-percent corner three shooter (he never got near 50 percent even though Danny was 55 percent from one of the corners last season). Green is 42.6 percent as a Spur from that position, while being 42 percent from the non-corner three. Totally doesn't make a difference....

In 2006, Bowen took 245 three pointers, and 23 of them were NOT from the corners. The Spurs offense relied heavily on his shots from that spot, which is why he took the overwhelming majority of them from that spot. Saying he was atrocious from another position where he shot less than ten percent of his threes is not a valid basis to say that he wasn't a good player. I've got three championship trophies to refute it. Are you calculating attempts in the Green numbers you're mysteriously throwing out there?



You've presented absolutely no argument for there being no difference between their offensive impacts. There have been quite a few arguments to the contrary in this thread, even from people thinking they're supporting Bowen by using those arguments.
I haven't attempted to make the argument that there's no difference between their offensive impacts. Bowen was a deadly corner three point shooter with a hall of fame post player that he spread the floor for. In that system, his offensive impact was far higher than Danny Green's offensive impact on one of the highest scoring teams in the league. I simply said that Danny Green has all the tools to become a far better offensive player than Bowen ever was. I fully expect that to be the case this year. Green's handles are improving season by season, and his midrange game and ability to penetrate have really gotten good.


It hasn't been debunked at all. Your idea that Bruce stopped hand-checking (and that the NBA immediately called every instance of hand-checking) simply because of the rule change HAS been debunked.
I never said that Bruce stopped hand checking. I said that he never hand checked in the first place. Bowen always played defense with his feet. It's part of Pop's defensive philosophy, and I submitted Bowen's personal foul numbers before and after to back it up. You posted a video where he doesn't hand check. You posted a video where McGrady has the same number of shot attempts as points in a game they lost because you, for all your whining about it, apparently Googled "Bowen gets schooled". You said that he played under a different set of rules, which is incorrect, since he won two of his three titles after the rules were changed. Have your mom drive you to the library so you can look up, "debunked."




So Leonard's Prime Tim now, is he?
Oh, I'm sorry. You said that Bowen had one of the best defenders in his prime backing him up. Are you saying that the defensive player of the year is not one of the best defenders in the league, or are you going to try to argue that Kawhi is not yet in his prime? I think Danny Green is an excellent defender, regardless of who he's playing alongside. It's sad that your argument is so weak that you try to make up shit about Bowen's abilities.


When Danny gets a top-five GOAT candidate and two other HoFers in their primes to run with him, then I'll consider your rings argument remotely valid.
If you think that Bowen wasn't a vital cog in those title teams, I have news for you: You're alone in that. I'd make the retired number argument as well, but I'm sure you've got a ridiculous hypothetical to attach to it.


You're the one who used false arguments over and over again and can't seem to understand that the NBA defensive culture is completely different from the on-the-book NBA rule changes.
I'm sure everyone here is going to be fascinated by your extensive list of my false arguments. The NBA defensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to play solid defense and keep the other team's best player from scoring efficiently. The NBA offensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to shoot 40 percent from the corners. None of that has anything to do with a rule change, because Bowen did most of his damage in the league after the rule change you just won't shut up about.

[BackHome]

For me I am looking at them from two different view points for Bowen it was his defense that what got him on the team and that is what kept him on the team. The dude won awards and helped us win a couple of rings by being very good at that. For me Green made the team on his three point shooting that is what keeping him on the team is his outside shot (he can't dribble). If he can keep shooting well and help us win another ring I would not mind seeing his number hanging up but if he doesn't show up like this past playoff games then ..Nope...

As far as defense I will say that Green one on one defense is not close to what Bowen was but Green help defense is pretty dang good when he is dialed in.

[Obstructed_View]

Actually watch when McGrady drives (which is when hand-checking would get called), and tell me Bruce isn't pushing him? And his attempts to get open when Bowen his literally grabbing his jersey?
Yeah, I watched it. I know what a hand check is. What's becoming clear is that you do not. They showed that first McGrady drive three times, and Bowen puts a hand on him after he's passed by. It's not a hand check. If a ref wanted to call it a push I suppose they could, but virtually every drive in the NBA to this day has someone making contact like that. Go pull up a random game highlight and watch it.

Bowen was the most scrutinized defender in the NBA, and he didn't get whistled for a lot of fouls. His fouls didn't go up after the hand checks were outright banned. Pop's defense emphasizes not fouling.

[Obstructed_View]

As far as defense I will say that Green one on one defense is not close to what Bowen was but Green help defense is pretty dang good when he is dialed in.
Hopefully consistency comes with age. He's scary good when he's on.

[Cloud786]

Damn Obstructed going in with no lube tbh

[Obstructed_View]

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it? :lol

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

[z0sa]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it? :lol

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

:lol great post, dude.

[BlackSilver]

http://img.pandawhale.com/81101-alright-well-call-it-a-draw-gi-JonN.gif

[BlackSilver]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it? :lol

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.
:toast

[Mikeanaro]

:cry Bowie

[HarlemHeat37]

Every Bowen argument in this thread has been largely based on narrative, tbh:lol..no evidence or even videos provided..

Bowen was an elite defender, no question about that..he benefited greatly from being permitted to handcheck, which was widely discussed and complained about among non-Spurs fans throughout the era..he also benefited greatly from the defensive era he played in, which was also the least popular era in the history of the league (partly due to style of play)..nevertheless, I have no argument against him being an elite defender and one of the best of his era..

However, the question here isn't defense vs. defense..Bowen was an elite defender that was average to poor in every other facet of basketball, while Green is a good defender and good offensive player that shows flashes of being better than that on both ends, too..

Bowen could only shoot from 2 spots on the floor, which would kill him in today's game where defenses have made eliminating corner 3s a priority..not to mention that he would have been playing without a star to draw attention on the 2014 and 2015 Spurs..

Let's look at the playoff runs of Bowen in 2003/2005/2007 vs. Green in 2013/2014:

BPM- 2.1(4th on the team among rotation guys), 1.1(6th), 3(4th) vs. 5.8(t-1st), 7.3(1st)

VORP- 0.8(4th), 0.6(4th), 0.9(3rd) vs. 1.3(2nd), 1.2(t-3rd)

RAPM(season + playoffs)- 1.5(4th), 1.3(3rd), -0.1(5th) vs. 3.4(3rd), 2.1(4th)

If we are going to include purely individual box score metrics, it's a landslide:

PER- 8.9, 5.4, 8.5 vs. 15.2, 16.5
TS%- 50.8, 48.7, 53.4 vs. 60.5, 65(on higher usage rate and shot attempts, too)


Bowen is one of my favorites of all-time(and I defended him here until the end while half the forum preferred that piece of trash Michael Finley), but all the on/off numbers are mostly accurate in regards to his performance..he was an elite defender, but mostly a gimmick player, tbh..

He certainly made an impact with his defense and he was always a net positive player, but his offense was virtually a non-factor, even with his nice 3-point percentage, as shown by the numbers and as displayed in the low correlation between his scoring outputs and efficiency Vs. Spurs W/L record..

There's no evidence to really argue otherwise, too..he was a gimmick player that would have had to learn new tricks to play today, particularly learning to shoot from anywhere other than 2 locations..maybe he would have, but that doesn't really factor into this discussion where we are comparing the finished products..

Green has him beat pretty easily in both advanced on/off metrics and individual advanced metrics, as well as individual peak performance..you can argue for Bowen's longevity and you can make the argument that he was more important due to the minutes he played and the way he was utilised specifically for those Spurs squads, but none of his performances compare to Green in neither 2013 or 2014, even including Bruce's nice 2003 run..

[apalisoc_9]

"killer instinct"
"tenaciousness"
"Hard nosed"
"tough"

:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not sure if a player like Bowen could ever work again, tbh..even looking through modern NBA history, the only players I found with similar statistical metrics that managed to produce a notable impact in a substanial amount of minutes are James Posey, early Thabo and past-prime Shane Battier(his Miami days)

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2dsl9vt.jpg

Sefolosha, for example, has already been exposed in recent years for his offensive struggles, despite being under 30 years old, too..

[timtonymanu]

"killer instinct"
"tenaciousness"
"Hard nosed"
"tough"

:lol

[DPG21920]

Tony Allen ^

[Robz4000]

Damn Obstructed going in with no lube tbh

:lol Chinook destroyed every one of OV's arguments with stats and numbers while OV argued back with antiquated concepts

[spurraider21]

:lol Chinook destroyed every one of OV's arguments with stats and numbers while OV argued back with antiquated concepts
sup mid

[kobyz]

How the hell is Bruce not on the spurs coaching stuff? And some girl like Becky is??? With Bruce as assistance coach the team would have won at least 3 out of the 4 latest titles, Bruce would have hinder Pop's softness and naiveness...

[Chinook]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it? :lol

Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.


Bowen didn't hand check in the video.

I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.


There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it.

Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.


You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.


I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.

[Chinook]

I think there was a discussion about what defines a stretch 4, and someone idiotically stated that Lamarcus wasn't one, which is almost as stupid as your refusal to give Bowen any credit for pioneering the 3 and D role.. At some point, when people are rejecting a simple definition, like a 3 and D or a stretch 4, you simply have to go to a source to try to nail it down. Since there's not really a dictionary at a library that contains recent basketball terms, I tried to give you a chance to go look at the discussions about 3 and D players that all show the genesis of the role being Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Your response was to tell me about his nickname. Either you're just really really fucking stupid or you're just too stubborn to accept how wrong you are on this discussion, no matter how much evidence is produced to confirm it.

The point is, what you're saying isn't evidence. It's not about being stubborn; it's about knowing what's valid to respond to.


No, I'm not. Bowen's impact as both a defender and three point shooter are relevant to this discussion. He wasn't a one-way player. His three point shooting was a key. He was elite at both roles, which is why he's a pioneer.

Yes, you are totally concatenating the two. The league has evolved to where players need to shoot more from other places along the arc. The league as also evolved to where it's not conducive to play "physical" defense anymore. But those were not the same change. It's not that they aren't both relevant to the discussion, it's that we're talking about them in different contexts. Bowen's shooting would no longer be very helpful in today's league. He'd probably be fine defensively. However, the difference in defensive culture meant his job was easier, so the fact that he has equal numbers to Green is not a good thing for your argument.


You said that the rules allowed Bowen to dominate

Yeah, no I didn't. I said his job was easier back then, and the "standard" he set isn't achievable today because of the different defensive culture. They have to play with their hands tied behind their back essentially. So Green does as good or almost as good of a job in a harder environment. I think Bowen would have been fine in today's age defensively.


Your continued fabrications are becoming tiring. He was not atrocious from anywhere. :lol at your spacing argument, which is completely incorrect. Pop's offense relies most strongly on the corner three. I'd tell you to Google it, but you'll get annoyed at someone showing you evidence

He shot 30 fucking percent from the non-corner three. That is atrocious. I don't know what else to tell you. And Pop does rely on the corner three, because it's still the easiest shot three to make. And Green shot better from the left corner last season than Bowen has ever shot. But the wing three is the longest three, so it draw the defender out the most. That is why it's better for spacing. More importantly, the fact that Danny's man has to worry about him moving anywhere along the arc does more to keep him home than Bowen ever did.


In 2006, Bowen took 245 three pointers, and 23 of them were NOT from the corners. The Spurs offense relied heavily on his shots from that spot, which is why he took the overwhelming majority of them from that spot. Saying he was atrocious from another position where he shot less than ten percent of his threes is not a valid basis to say that he wasn't a good player. I've got three championship trophies to refute it. Are you calculating attempts in the Green numbers you're mysteriously throwing out there?

This is really bad. First, Bowen shot 30 percent there for his whole Spurs career, so there's a decent sample size. Secondly the idea of "ring > 3pt%" is the worse take you've had. And again, didn't say Bowen WASN'T a good player. I did say that he was much worse than Green offensively, because Danny is historically good at what he does. To say Bowen <<< Green on offense is only insulting to a few people who don't want to give Danny his props.


I never said that Bruce stopped hand checking. I said that he never hand checked in the first place. Bowen always played defense with his feet. It's part of Pop's defensive philosophy, and I submitted Bowen's personal foul numbers before and after to back it up. You posted a video where he doesn't hand check. You posted a video where McGrady has the same number of shot attempts as points in a game they lost because you, for all your whining about it, apparently Googled "Bowen gets schooled". You said that he played under a different set of rules, which is incorrect, since he won two of his three titles after the rules were changed. Have your mom drive you to the library so you can look up, "debunked."

God, you got juvenile at this point. Do you really think Bowen didn't hand-check when it was legal? This is a guy who literally kicked someone in the face, who gets tons of credit from fans for knowing how to play just-legal defense. And you think he wasn't hand-checking? And you can't even see in the vid I posted that he was hand-checking? It's pathetic denial by you. As far as the vid goes, I actually searched "Bowen defense", but there aren't any vids of him having extended work on anyone but maybe Kobe. I was looking for good highlights of his so that I could show his handchecking. But defenders usually only get vids when they look bad, like O-linemen in football.


Oh, I'm sorry. You said that Bowen had one of the best defenders in his prime backing him up. Are you saying that the defensive player of the year is not one of the best defenders in the league, or are you going to try to argue that Kawhi is not yet in his prime? I think Danny Green is an excellent defender, regardless of who he's playing alongside. It's sad that your argument is so weak that you try to make up shit about Bowen's abilities.

I'm trying to argue that Prime Tim is way better than Kawhi is or will ever be. Tim may have been the GOAT defensive player in his prime. Also, Leonard doesn't back Green up at all. He plays next to him. If Danny gets beat, Kawhi isn't running over to protect the rim. It was just a bad comparison on your part.


If you think that Bowen wasn't a vital cog in those title teams, I have news for you: You're alone in that. I'd make the retired number argument as well, but I'm sure you've got a ridiculous hypothetical to attach to it.

Again, didn't say that Bowen wasn't critical to those teams. But being relatively good isn't the same thing as being absolutely good, which is something you can't seem to grasp. Bowen was good, and he played an essential role on those teams. He deserves his rings. But that doesn't make him better than Green. Those Spurs teams were completely different in what role-players had to do. Bruce was never going to have to carry the Spurs offensively for stretches of games like Danny had to.


I'm sure everyone here is going to be fascinated by your extensive list of my false arguments. The NBA defensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to play solid defense and keep the other team's best player from scoring efficiently. The NBA offensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to shoot 40 percent from the corners. None of that has anything to do with a rule change, because Bowen did most of his damage in the league after the rule change you just won't shut up about.

You should stop concatenating what I'm saying. It's clear you don't understand it. Bruce would be a one-way player in today's league, because of the evolved culture. That's not about the rules change. And I think you're behind on the times anyway if you think Bruce is still the gold-standard for 3/D players. Are any of the permier defenders just corner shooters nowadays? I know there are some fringe defensive prospects like Roberson and Huestis with OKC who are in that discussion, but their lack of versatility is why no one seems to care about them.

[Obstructed_View]

Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.
Well then let's separate them, because you've made points about both his shooting and his defense, and each is equally weak. On defense, you said that he hand checks, and his defense was predicated on the rules allowing him to be able to hand check, which is wrong because you clearly didn't know the year that the rule was changed. The video you posted, sorry to say yet again, does not have Bowen hand checking in it. You prove in the rest of the post below that you don't know what a hand check is. You tried to use an old Jordan argument to discredit him and you can't admit that you fucked up, and then you doubled down by saying that he's actually violating the rules but the refs are just ignoring it and letting him get away with it. Again, this is a discussion comparing two really good players. I made the case that Bowen's contributions to the team were greater, and Green's upside is higher. You've tried to make the case that Bowen's not a good shooter or a good defender.

As far as offense, it's odd that you post Green's percentage from the corners as evidence of his shooting ability, but won't accept Bowen's percentage from the corners as evidence. If defenses are better, you won't say that it's because of Bowen's offensive impact, and you like to harp on Bowen's lower percentage from the places he shot less than 15 percent of his threes to refute his dominance as a corner threat.



I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.
I know the definition, which is why I'm sure he's not doing it in the video. I'm pretty sure I've posted it in this thread for you. Your definition is pretty close to correct. If you put your hand on them and keep it on them, or if you impede his progress, it's a hand check. Bowen is not impeding progress on McGrady when he's facing up. He just isn't. When a player has his back to you can put a hand with a bent elbow or a forearm against him. When he faces up, no contact that slows down his momentum is allowed. Bowen pushed McGrady after he was past as he was going for that layup. That's not a hand check, it was a push. And if the official wanted to call that he could have. He didn't. The only place you have to run is the "refs love him" argument, which is both ludicrous and par for the course from you.

Pop's "defend with your feet" defensive philosophy wasn't an accident. Bowen knew the definition of hand checking, because there were hand checking rules in place before he even came into the league. It wasn't allowed at all from the baseline to the three point line, so any defender picking up a dribbler at full or half court had to follow the rules. In 2004-2005 they banned it on all spots on the court, but it didn't change his defensive style because Bowen was assigned to defend a ton of scorers who got the ball in isolation outside the three point line.


Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.
Even if that were true, that would be fine if Bowen's career ended in 2005, but Bowen won a title with the Spurs in 2007. Check his stats. His fouls per 36 went up like 0.2 during that time. You're trying to claim that Bowen got away with rules infractions because the refs didn't have time to adjust when Bowen's numbers were virtually the same FOUR YEARS into the rule change.


I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.
The box score says he wasn't sending McGrady to the foul line. You won't accept the outcome, you won't accept McGrady's poor shooting percentage, you won't accept that the Spurs held the Rockets to ten points in the last ten minutes of the game, you won't accept that Bowen only had two fouls. I guess you really have no refuge to run to when faced with the stats proving that Bowen didn't suddenly become a fouler when the rules changed. :lol


Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.
I'm having trouble believing that you don't see that you're playing both sides against the middle in every argument, since if he were hand checking, he wouldn't be seen as an elite defender by the refs.

I recall CWS saying that Bowen wasn't offensively limited and said that every team in the league would love a defender of Bowen's caliber on their team, points you've argued with throughout, even saying that Kobe giving Bowen credit as the best defender he ever faced was meaningless. I missed the part where CWS said that the only reason Bowen was successful is because the refs gave him leeway to hand check.

[Spurtacular]

I haven't voted. If I do, I'm sure it'll be Green. But I'll say this: Bowen doesn't allow CP3 to make that kind of drive at the end of Game 7.

[Spurtacular]

How the hell is Bruce not on the spurs coaching stuff? And some girl like Becky is??? With Bruce as assistance coach the team would have won at least 3 out of the 4 latest titles, Bruce would have hinder Pop's softness and naiveness...

It's possible that Bruce has not wanted to coach. He's probably making about the same money for much less work as a part-time analyst.

[Obstructed_View]

God, you got juvenile at this point. Do you really think Bowen didn't hand-check when it was legal? This is a guy who literally kicked someone in the face, who gets tons of credit from fans for knowing how to play just-legal defense. And you think he wasn't hand-checking? And you can't even see in the vid I posted that he was hand-checking? It's pathetic denial by you. As far as the vid goes, I actually searched "Bowen defense", but there aren't any vids of him having extended work on anyone but maybe Kobe. I was looking for good highlights of his so that I could show his handchecking. But defenders usually only get vids when they look bad, like O-linemen in football.

Bowen didn't hand check above the three point line because it was outlawed his entire career, so he knew where and when he could and could not do it. The defensive philosophy of the team he had his success with stressed not fouling with your hands, instead keeping position and funneling a guy in a certain direction. He was so good at moving his feet he didn't have to make a big adjustment when the rules changed, which is why his fouls didn't suddenly go up. I'm sure he did it below the foul line before 2004. Whether you believe Bowen was dirty or not, there's not any arguing that he gave himself every advantage within the rules, up to and including hand checking where and when it was legal. You have been attempting to make the case that he couldn't defend today because you mistakenly think he played in an era that allowed hand checking, which is not true. I'm showing you evidence that he had success in the era after the rules changed, and had success against some of the most dominant scorers in the game.

Not sure what you think you see in that video, but by the definition you gave of hand checking, it's not there. Bowen pushing McGrady on the hip after he's by is not a hand check. The fact that they showed three different replays of it doesn't mean Bowen did it four times in the game.

[TD 21]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Exactly. The difference is, metrics aren't inherently biased (though like most things, each individual one requires context); people are.

I don't see a credible argument for Green not being a clear cut better version of Bowen. But that's not a knock on Bowen and it doesn't diminish his accomplishments.

[barbacoataco]

I voted bowen but green'a supporters made some good arguments. I think in 2-3 years we'll have a better picture. I'm hoping Danny continues to improve and moves past Bowen.

[kobyz]

Such a fucking joke this place, putting this pathetic player name around Bowen name!!!