Bowen vs. Danny Green? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 05:42 PM

With Bowen's jersey retired, considering his accomplishments with the spurs and sacrifices...I've been wondering a lot on how Danny will be seen five or six years from now if the spurs win another ring or two.

Bowen

- Great Defender with the luxury of having one of the best defensive bigman in the league and a younger Parker that didn't need help on defense

- Very good three pointer.

Danny Green

- Great defender with the luxury of playing alongside one of the best perimeter defender ever but an older and slower TD, and having to cover for an aging TP

- Greatest three point shooter in the NBA Finals

- 1 Ring and two finals

- Made one of the biggest financial sacrifices in team History...

If Danny wins another, does he deserve to have his jersey Retired?

Hypotetlixly, If you have the option now...Would you choose Bowen over Green?

I'm going with Green since he's a much deadlier three point shooter.

timtonymanu

07-21-2015, 05:46 PM

I'm still a Bowen fan but Green >>>>>> Bruce easily.

If the Leonard and Green duo stick together, I see no reason why Green's jersey won't be retired someday

Holden_Caulfield

07-21-2015, 05:47 PM

bowen wouldve shut down cp3, tbh

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 05:48 PM

I'm still a Bowen fan but Green >>>>>> Bruce easily.

If the Leonard and Green duo stick together, I see no reason why Green's jersey won't be retired someday

If Johnson jersey is retired, it would be a joke not see Danny's retired..Provided he stays his whole career and the spurs win another one..IMO.

HI-FI

07-21-2015, 05:48 PM

I'm still a Bowen fan but Green >>>>>> Bruce easily.

If the Leonard and Green duo stick together, I see no reason why Green's jersey won't be retired someday
Cosigned

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 05:48 PM

bowen wouldve shut down cp3, tbh

Of course, he would have been playing with a young TD..one of the most well rounded defensive big the league has ever seen.

lefty20

07-21-2015, 05:49 PM

I'd take Bowen. He instilled fear in his opponents. He was ridiculously good at getting under the opponents skin and just irritating the fuck out of them. Plus they'd be a little worried about the possibility of Bruce injuring them.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 05:52 PM

bowen wouldve shut down cp3, tbh

Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.

Hoops Czar

07-21-2015, 05:52 PM

Green, primarily because he's a two-way player. If I had to choose one's defense over another, I'd select Bowen.

Hoops Czar

07-21-2015, 05:52 PM

Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.

Nobody could.

Holden_Caulfield

07-21-2015, 05:53 PM

Of course, he would have been playing with a young TD..one of the most well rounded defensive big the league has ever seen.
bowen regardless of how great timmy is, was a very good defender on his own. i would take bowen 1v1 def over danny 9/10

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 05:53 PM

Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.
Was about to say this...

Chinook

07-21-2015, 05:54 PM

Nobody could.

Just like no one can shut down the good players that Green and Leonard routinely shut down? In this case, Bowen wasn't even a speed bump against Nash.

ducks

07-21-2015, 05:58 PM

Holden_Caulfield

07-21-2015, 06:01 PM

Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.
nash>>cp3

Bruno

07-21-2015, 06:02 PM

People talking about Bruce while having no clue about him...

Stick to trolling, kid, you don't have the level to do more.

urunobili

07-21-2015, 06:08 PM

Chinook

07-21-2015, 06:11 PM

nash>>cp3

Why? Why was everyone in Bowen's day better than their modern counterparts? It's crazy how people try to justify the lower standard for defense last decade. Same people usually think Memphis just keeps getting screwed out of playoff wins every year.

Hoops Czar

07-21-2015, 06:12 PM

Just like no one can shut down the good players that Green and Leonard routinely shut down? In this case, Bowen wasn't even a speed bump against Nash.

:lol I don't know. If the Spurs put prime Bruce on Alexey Shved, Spurs probably walk away with the 2 seed. I'm not sure why such vitriol towards Bruce. Did he knee you in the nuts and take your wallet? I'm not even sure Green or Leonard could stop a prime Nash. He was one, if not the best overall player in the league.

Kool Bob Love

07-21-2015, 06:16 PM

Bowen: 3

Green: 1.

Lettuce proceed

timtonymanu

07-21-2015, 06:17 PM

Bruce rang thrice last time i checked and is undefeated on the Finals... DG would need to at least win two more and be the shutdown D player on each ring run (Kawhi has that role now) that Bruce was to be put in the same category. Bruce>DG still

In that case, Barry is better than Patty because he rang more than him. Good argument indeed.

TheGreatYacht

07-21-2015, 06:18 PM

I'll take whoever doesn't get shut down by Matt Barnes tbh. So both :tu

Chinook

07-21-2015, 06:19 PM

:lol I don't know. If the Spurs put prime Bruce on Alexey Shved, Spurs probably walk away with the 2 seed. I'm not sure why such vitriol towards Bruce. Did he knee you in the nuts and take your wallet? I'm not even sure Green or Leonard could stop a prime Nash. He was one, if not the best overall player in the league.

I think Bowen is mad overrated by fans who can't be objective. People don't realize how much better the Spurs defense is than it was with Bowen. Back then, the idea was that great players were going to get theirs and you just had to do your best to make things harder on them. But the Spurs can actually render the opposing stars ineffective for whole series with their defensive personnel. And it's not like Bruce didn't have advantages Green and Leonard don't have. Players were allowed to play much more physically than they are now. So the fact that the Spurs put up superior efforts against stars is even more impressive, given that it's extremely hard with the current rules to "get into the heads" of opponents.

Green and Leonard would be elite defenders in Bowen's era. At best, Bowen would be Tony Allen with worst driving skills but better shooting. And even though Allen has elite defensive metrics, he's barely a plus player against good opponents.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 06:20 PM

Bowen: 3

Green: 1.

Lettuce proceed

Bonner: 2

Robinson: 2

Quite the pickle you've created.

Robz4000

07-21-2015, 06:23 PM

I love Bruce and everything he did for the Spurs, but Green is the superior player.

ceperez

07-21-2015, 06:27 PM

I think Bowen is mad overrated by fans who can't be objective. People don't realize how much better the Spurs defense is than it was with Bowen. Back then, the idea was that great players were going to get theirs and you just had to do your best to make things harder on them. But the Spurs can actually render the opposing stars ineffective for whole series with their defensive personnel. And it's not like Bruce didn't have advantages Green and Leonard don't have. Players were allowed to play much more physically than they are now. So the fact that the Spurs put up superior efforts against stars is even more impressive, given that it's extremely hard with the current rules to "get into the heads" of opponents.

Green and Leonard would be elite defenders in Bowen's era. At best, Bowen would be Tony Allen with worst driving skills but better shooting. And even though Allen has elite defensive metrics, he's barely a plus player against good opponents.

Green without a doubt has more talent than Bowen ever had. That said, Bowen put a lot more effort into the game and was more focused. Green tends to coast or become extremely passive, this makes a lot of fans crazy because they all know that he can do better. With Bowen we were all content when he made an occasional 3 pointerl, but we wouldn't care much if he didn't contribute to the offense.

ironman2886

07-21-2015, 06:28 PM

Green.

dabom

07-21-2015, 06:29 PM

Bruce never needed to rebound assist score steal block. He just had to defend. He had prime timmy behind him. It's a lot closer than people think. 50/50 for me.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 06:34 PM

Green without a doubt has more talent than Bowen ever had. That said, Bowen put a lot more effort into the game and was more focused. Green tends to coast or become extremely passive, this makes a lot of fans crazy because they all know that he can do better. With Bowen we were all content when he made an occasional 3 pointerl, but we wouldn't care much if he didn't contribute to the offense.

Yeah, but that was good enough back then. It's not now. Bowen would be a near liability seeing as teams are much better at protecting against the corner three now. Since Bruce wasn't a threat anywhere else on the court, his spacing impact would be lessened if he played now. He might not be Allen bad, but he'd struggle to be a plus player, especially since the Big Three are each well past their prime. Imagine how much better the Spurs' spacing would have been had they had Green there instead. Danny has one of the highest gravities in the league. Having him and Horry on the wings (the physical location, not the position) would completely open up the court for the Big Three.

Kool Bob Love

07-21-2015, 06:36 PM

Bonner: 2

Robinson: 2

Quite the pickle you've created.

thread is about green and Bowen tho.

Richie

07-21-2015, 06:36 PM

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 06:38 PM

Bruce rang thrice last time i checked and is undefeated on the Finals... DG would need to at least win two more and be the shutdown D player on each ring run (Kawhi has that role now) that Bruce was to be put in the same category. Bruce>DG still

Kawhi is the best defender in the league, but why do people forget that Danny is almost always going to take 50% of kawhi responsibility in terms of guarding the best player?

And Danny's time on superstars now will be even more with Leonard's increased offensive responsiblity.

In the last two month of the season last year, Danny was the designated stopper..he spent more time on the 1 options than Kawhi.

ironman2886

07-21-2015, 06:39 PM

Fuck Bruce. He took DPOY votes away from Duncan. Such a travesty.

Tuddy

07-21-2015, 06:46 PM

Bowen severely limited Nash's effectiveness in 2007, forcing him to be a scorer, resulting in him turning it over repeatedly iirc. Green will be the better player once he's done, but at this stage he's had 3.5 good seasons and Bowen had 7 effective ones.

Nathan89

07-21-2015, 06:54 PM

Why does the Op include rings/finals appearances under Green but not Bowen?

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:03 PM

I dont understand anyone saying Green is a superior player to Green, they are both 3&D who can do little else. Bowen was assisted on 99.6% of his 3's while Danny on "only" 94%. Bowen was a better defender and a legit DPOY candidate every year, whereas Danny may never make an all defense team.

No one's arguing that Bowen is more hyped that Green, which is all that DPOY and All-Defense establishes.

Green is obviously a better shooter but Bowen was still elite. Bruces first year was his worst, but from 02-03 until he retired he shot 41% from 3, compared to Danny who has shot 42.5% from 3 since 2011-12. Im surprised by this considering how great Danny has been, but Bowen actually shot better for the Spurs in the playoffs than Danny has, 44% to 43%. Both are incredible numbers and Danny put up much more volume which counts for something.

Green takes harder shots and shots that are more helpful to the offense (especially nowadays) than Bowen did. This doesn't even mention that you can run plays for Green to get shots much more easily than you can for Bowen. Looking at percentages doesn't come close to establishing offensive importance. The two leaders in TS% last season were Korver and Chandler, but there's no question which one of the two was more deadly to a defense. Harder shots and more dynamic shots matter.

Neither of them can do much else at an NBA level. Personally I'm taking Bruces better defense over Greens marginally better shooting.

Bowen's Spurs per-36 numbers: 8/4/2/1/0 (rounded, obviously)
Green's Spurs per-36 numbers: 14/5/2/2/1

The production just wasn't there. Bruce was a niche player, while Danny is a legit starting two in any era.

sexinthatsx

07-21-2015, 07:03 PM

Bruce Bowen and it isn't even close. There was a time when the NBA wasn't a ticky tack hand-check foul league, and Bruce Bowen played prior to that era. Also, comparing the two isn't even fair because Danny Green would never have defended any prime PFs in KG or Dirk like the way Bowen did.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:06 PM

Kawhi is the best defender in the league, but why do people forget that Danny is almost always going to take 50% of kawhi responsibility in terms of guarding the best player?

And Danny's time on superstars now will be even more with Leonard's increased offensive responsiblity.

In the last two month of the season last year, Danny was the designated stopper..he spent more time on the 1 options than Kawhi.

Depending on the nature of the series, they switch off between being CB and FS. For most of the second half of the RS, Kawhi played FS and was a steal and block maestro. For the 2014 WCF and Finals, Leonard was the CB and Green was the FS, pretty much shutting down whichever role-player was trying to go off and rotating down to protect the paint.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:08 PM

There was a time when the NBA wasn't a ticky tack hand-check foul league, and Bruce Bowen played prior to that era.

You say that like it's an advantage to Green that it's harder to guard players nowadays.

Also, comparing the two isn't even fair because Danny Green would never have defended any prime PFs in KG or Dirk like the way Bowen did.

"Defend" is pretty generous considering the fact that Dirk took Bowen to the cleaners.

Nathan89

07-21-2015, 07:11 PM

Green capable of 400+ 3ptfga per year and make 40%+. That is a significant difference.

Nathan89

07-21-2015, 07:12 PM

Why? Why was everyone in Bowen's day better than their modern counterparts? It's crazy how people try to justify the lower standard for defense last decade. Same people usually think Memphis just keeps getting screwed out of playoff wins every year.

Didn't even realize people thought this.

honestfool84

07-21-2015, 07:17 PM

I think a better question, honestly, should be Bowen vs. Kawhi Leonard on defense only. Who is better?

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 07:17 PM

Green is playing in the toughest conference ever..

In a league that's harder to defend because of offensive diversity. :lol

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:22 PM

I think a better question, honestly, should be Bowen vs. Kawhi Leonard on defense only. Who is better?

It's easier, if that's what you mean. Kawhi. Bowen is overrated.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:23 PM

Didn't even realize people thought this.

Yeah. :cry only a Zbo suspension and Conley injury away from back-to-back titles :cry

AFBlue

07-21-2015, 07:27 PM

Bowen was the best perimeter defender in the league for years...consistently brought the edge every single night. And he made the defense pay for sagging off the corner. I like Green a lot, but his defense isn't consistently elite like Bowen. Unfortunately he does suffer by comparison to Kawhi, but I think he would've also suffered by comparison to Bowen. People may also forget that Bowen added a one-dribble mid-range pull up to his game after defenses started closing hard. In other words, he wasn't a one trick pony on offense.

So, for me it's Bowen and the one reason why...consistency.

Richie

07-21-2015, 07:33 PM

No one's arguing that Bowen is more hyped that Green, which is all that DPOY and All-Defense establishes.

Green takes harder shots and shots that are more helpful to the offense (especially nowadays) than Bowen did. This doesn't even mention that you can run plays for Green to get shots much more easily than you can for Bowen. Looking at percentages doesn't come close to establishing offensive importance. The two leaders in TS% last season were Korver and Chandler, but there's no question which one of the two was more deadly to a defense. Harder shots and more dynamic shots matter.

Bowen's Spurs per-36 numbers: 8/4/2/1/0 (rounded, obviously)
Green's Spurs per-36 numbers: 14/5/2/2/1

The production just wasn't there. Bruce was a niche player, while Danny is a legit starting two in any era.

Saying Bruce was less important to the offense is meaningless when you consider that he played with 3 Hall of Famers in their primes. They are both capable of playing the same role on each others teams, Bowen could do everything for the '14 Spurs that Danny did and the same goes for Green and the mid '00s Spurs. Danny scores nearly twice as many points because he takes nearly twice as many threes, that's just an indication of the way the game has changed in the past 5-10 years. If Bowen played today he'd be averaging 12+ points on nearly 7 3PA per 36 just like Green is.

Richie

07-21-2015, 07:34 PM

Green capable of 400+ 3ptfga per year and make 40%+. That is a significant difference.

Just because Bowen didn't do it doesn't mean he wasn't capable, the game has changed.

bus driver

07-21-2015, 07:39 PM

70% of the earth is covered by water the rest is covered by bruce

Chinook

07-21-2015, 07:40 PM

Saying Bruce was less important to the offense is meaningless when you consider that he played with 3 Hall of Famers in their primes. They are both capable of playing the same role on each others teams, Bowen could do everything for the '14 Spurs that Danny did and the same goes for Green and the mid '00s Spurs. Danny scores nearly twice as many points because he takes nearly twice as many threes, that's just an indication of the way the game has changed in the past 5-10 years. If Bowen played today he'd be averaging 12+ points on nearly 7 3PA per 36 just like Green is.

Most of this is unsubstantiated, but the bolded is just absurd. Bowen could hit the corner three at a decent rate (for corner threes). Danny's a better shooter from the corner, but he's also able to expand his range around the arch. That's critical to spacing in the modern NBA. Bowen isn't close.

therealtruth

07-21-2015, 07:42 PM

Would Bowen be able to keep up with a guy like Westbrook?

TXstbobcat

07-21-2015, 07:43 PM

I have always been a Bowen fan but I think Verde is the better player.

100%duncan

07-21-2015, 08:20 PM

Bruce was my third favorite spur before behind td and manu but green is just a better overall player. I do think bruce has a slight edge defensively. Still taking Verde.

HarlemHeat37

07-21-2015, 08:24 PM

It's Bowen if we are ignoring circumstances, tbh..however, playing in the handcheck era with prime Duncan(and Alonzo Mourning) behind you certainly helps your defense..

kobyz

07-21-2015, 08:32 PM

Bowen and not even close, probably my second favorite spur, gave us a winning mentality that Green is lacking, Green is nice guy and it's not fitting his role and it's hurt the Spurs, tend to totally desapeer for long sections in playoff serieses...

TXstbobcat

07-21-2015, 08:38 PM

Nobody wears the bow tie like Bowen!!!

spurraider21

07-21-2015, 08:39 PM

CP3 toyed with the Spurs throughout round 1. Iirc he had 1 poor game

Obstructed_View

07-21-2015, 08:41 PM

Bowen invented the 3 and D.

z0sa

07-21-2015, 08:51 PM

Bowen and it's honestly not that close. One, Bowen was a terrific athlete and just an iron man. Nigga played and started 500 straight games and the only reason his streak was broken was because of a questionable suspension. And that was in his mid and late thirties for fucks sake.

Bowen could guard one through five, as well. Not one on one every night every possession, no no no kids. Guys like Dirk and Kobe still got theirs when they managed to get the ball. But thats just the thing... The reason Bowen could shut down the likes of Peja, Kobe and ZBo was him being absolutely adept at denying opposing players the ball in their comfort zone. No stat, traditional or advanced, can quantify the psychological effect of disrupting a player's rhythm and often times, the entire flow of the offense.

And let's not mince words here: Bowen was dirty. He stretched the rules to the max and was extremely physical. I remember players and coaches literally complaining that the refs let him punch players on the court. Green just doesnt have that edge about him. We all remember him showing up to the Heat's post championship party.

Bowen was more clutch defensively, as well. He always seemed to come through big on that end in the most important moments. The game he outscored Kobe was an indirect result of his tenacious defense. The block on Dirk, game 5 of the 2006 WCSF. The block on Chauncey in Game 7 of the 05 Finals. Green's certainly more desirable for a last second offensive play but defensively, Id always take Bowen.

The intangibles Bowen brought to the table are beyond the stat sheet, traditional or otherwise. And honestly, theyre beyond Green. DG's a great great player in his own right and he deserves a place in the comversation. Hes certainly better offe sively. But Id trade 2003 Bowen for him without question. Just my two cents.

100%duncan

07-21-2015, 08:55 PM

People choosing brucie but unable to back it up with stats. But he delivered for us when it mattered! :cry

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:00 PM

People choosing brucie but unable to back it up with stats. But he delivered for us when it mattered! :cry

It's not always about stats.

Bowen had a great 5 year stretch for the Spurs in which they won 3 titles and was the primary perimeter defender during those years. When his role was diminished, or done, the Spurs floundered in the playoffs until the emergence of Kawhi. Those are all the stats you need.

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:00 PM

BillMc

07-21-2015, 09:03 PM

K...

07-21-2015, 09:10 PM

It's not always about stats.

Duncan had a great 5 year stretch for the Spurs in which they won 3 titles and was the primary defender during those years. When his role was diminished, or done, the Spurs floundered in the playoffs until the emergence of Kawhi. Those are all the stats you need.

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:13 PM

HarlemHeat37

07-21-2015, 09:13 PM

Bowen's impact is tough to quantify, because of the way the Spurs utilized him, and due to the style of play of the team..if you're looking strictly at offensive metrics, both individual and team impact, Bowen is seen as a very poor offensive player and Danny Green looks like Michael Jordan in comparison of the numbers:lol..

I'm not sure if there's a precedent for Bowen in regards to numbers vs. impact, especially on the perimeter..even looking at some of Bowen's contemporaries from the era(like Battier, for instance), their offensive metrics aren't similar..

Realistically, in 10 years, Bowen will probably be dismissed by most fans that didn't watch him play, unfortunately..all offensive on/off metrics have him as a liability, and that's not even considering individual numbers, too(which are partly skewed due to his role, but credit to Pop for utilizing him perfectly)..

K...

07-21-2015, 09:15 PM

Bowen is almost a gimmick player. Outstanding athlete, dirty, effective, but also totally a systems player on both sides of the ball. Danny was an elite defensive player in a much more complex offense and defense.

Bruce just had to press and trust Duncan.

Did Bowen ever get major $$$$ interest during free agency? Green did. He turned it down. Only a few nba teams can afford to start Bowen.nearly every team with a decent point guard can use green effectively

Green is so crafty to play defense without fouling and using length. Give me Verde in any era. Bowen had a nice career-5 years as a starter. Green could be a starting two for 7-10 years. It's won't even be close then.

barbacoataco

07-21-2015, 09:17 PM

It's not always about stats.

Bowen had a great 5 year stretch for the Spurs in which they won 3 titles and was the primary perimeter defender during those years. When his role was diminished, or done, the Spurs floundered in the playoffs until the emergence of Kawhi. Those are all the stats you need.
Agree. You had to be there.

Also, Green is a limited offensive player who relies on shooting open 3's just like Bowen. He takes more, but Bowen was consistent and always shot over 40% 3pt in playoffs and made the shots he needed to.

But the main point is that when Bowen declined defensively the Spurs stopped winning, even though they had the same team.

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:17 PM

What Green did in 2013 bruce could never come close to that.

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:18 PM

Agree. You had to be there.

Also, Green is a limited offensive player who relies on shooting open 3's just like Bowen. He takes more, but Bowen was consistent and always shot over 40% 3pt in playoffs and made the shots he needed to.

But the main point is that when Bowen declined defensively the Spurs stopped winning, even though they had the same team.

We didn't start winning with green either? Hence the thread.

barbacoataco

07-21-2015, 09:19 PM

Also, Bowen could defend quick players like Kobe, and big physical players like Zach Randolph. It's true he struggled against Dirk, but no one could really defend him.

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:20 PM

Also, Bowen could defend quick players like Kobe, and big physical players like Zach Randolph. It's true he struggled against Dirk, but no one could really defend him.

Green can't defend quick players? Am I missing something in this thread?

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:23 PM

Manu and tony got old too and we started RJ. Kawhi replaced the tony and manu equivalent and green replaced the bowen equivalent hence the thread.

Kawhi didn't replace Tony and Manu, and Green didn't replace Bowen. Manu and Tony were both effective after '08 and before Kawhi's emergence. Where are the championship appearances during that stretch? Kawhi replaced what Bowen brought to the Spurs. It would be more fitting for you to say DG has replaced some of what Manu and Tony used to bring.

No Bowen, no championships in '03, '05 and '07. No Kawhi, no championship in '14. Danny is a good defender...not on Bruce's level. Who was the Lebron stopper in '07? In '14? You're comparing the wrong two players.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 09:23 PM

Also, Bowen could defend quick players like Kobe, and big physical players like Zach Randolph. It's true he struggled against Dirk, but no one could really defend him.

Jack shut Dirk down the very next year. Seriously, people need to quit this idea that Bowen was a good Dirk or Nash option. He may have been the best the Spurs had, but he wasn't a good one.

Chinook

07-21-2015, 09:25 PM

Kawhi didn't replace Tony and Manu, and Green didn't replace Bowen. Manu and Tony were both effective after '08 and before Kawhi's emergence. Where are the championship appearances during that stretch? Kawhi replaced what Bowen brought to the Spurs. It would be more fitting for you to say DG has replaced some of what Manu and Tony used to bring.

No Bowen, no championships in '03, '05 and '07. No Kawhi, no championship in '14. Danny is a good defender...not on Bruce's level. Who was the Lebron stopper in '07? In '14? You're comparing the wrong two players.

The team stopped Lebron in 07. Do all the folks who claim you have to have seen Bowen live to understand him really not remember those Finals at all?

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:26 PM

Kawhi didn't replace Tony and Manu, and Green didn't replace Bowen. Manu and Tony were both effective after '08 and before Kawhi's emergence. Where are the championship appearances during that stretch? Kawhi replaced what Bowen brought to the Spurs. It would be more fitting for you to say DG has replaced some of what Manu and Tony used to bring.

No Bowen, no championships in '03, '05 and '07. No Kawhi, no championship in '14. Danny is a good defender...not on Bruce's level. Who was the Lebron stopper in '07? In '14? You're comparing the wrong two players.

I was talking about importance not actually what they do. Bruce is a role player. Green is a role player. Kawhi is a star. Manu and Tony are stars. You're the one comparing the wrong players.

dabom

07-21-2015, 09:32 PM

No kawhi no timmyno manu no tiago no a lot of players. A cop out statement. Doesn't describe which provided the most tbh.

BD24

07-21-2015, 09:32 PM

Good thread by the OP surprisingly.

Anyway I would personally go with Green for pretty much the same reason as op. Please stick to threads like this op, much better than your overdone Parker bashing.
:bobo

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:33 PM

The team stopped Lebron in 07. Do all the folks who claim you have to have seen Bowen live to understand him really not remember those Finals at all?

You could say the same thing about '14. Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron. His rep as a dirty player probably cost Bruce multiple DPOY awards. Just because he didn't fill up a stat sheet people forget what he brought to the team. He instilled fear in our opponents, he got into the heads of the other team's best shooters. On top of his defense he was a 40% 3-point shooter. He was as important as the Big 3 during the '03 to '07 run.

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:36 PM

I was talking about importance not actually what they do. Bruce is a role player. Green is a role player. Kawhi is a star. Manu and Tony are stars. You're the one comparing the wrong players.

I saw Bruce outplay an in-his-prime Kobe Bryant in the playoffs. Bowen's accomplishments were overshadowed sometimes.

BD24

07-21-2015, 09:38 PM

You could say the same thing about '14. Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron. His rep as a dirty player probably cost Bruce multiple DPOY awards. Just because he didn't fill up a stat sheet people forget what he brought to the team. He instilled fear in our opponents, he got into the heads of the other team's best shooters. On top of his defense he was a 40% 3-point shooter. He was as important as the Big 3 during the '03 to '07 run.
Really? Thats ridiculous. Don't get me wrong Bruce was an important piece in us winning those titles. But to say he was as important as the big 3 during that run is insane. No Duncan and those teams were probably not even making the playoffs. Especially the 03 team.

Spurs_619

07-21-2015, 09:43 PM

Bruce got to play with a prime big 3 not really fair to compare.

tmtcsc

07-21-2015, 09:53 PM

Dude couldn't even shut down Nash.

What?!? GTFOOH. :lol He gave Nash nightmares.

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-21-2015, 09:55 PM

Really? Thats ridiculous. Don't get me wrong Bruce was an important piece in us winning those titles. But to say he was as important as the big 3 during that run is insane. No Duncan and those teams were probably not even making the playoffs. Especially the 03 team.

People forget the importance of having an elite perimeter defender in the playoffs. There's a reason why the Spurs didn't do much in the playoffs after Bruce left and before Kawhi emerged. That role becomes supremely important in the post season. The Spurs were also-rans in the post season from '09-'12, and it's no coincidence that Bruce not being there was a factor in that. The Big 3 was there during that span. The missing piece was Bowen.

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:00 PM

People forget the importance of having an elite perimeter defender in the playoffs. There's a reason why the Spurs didn't do much in the playoffs after Bruce left and before Kawhi emerged. That role becomes supremely important in the post season. The Spurs were also-rans in the post season from '09-'12, and it's no coincidence that Bruce not being there was a factor in that. The Big 3 was there during that span. The missing piece was Bowen.

The missing piece was a serviceable 2 not richard fucking jefferson. Dude missed 2 fucking free throws when he played for the warriors. Sums up his basketball career with the spurs. I take that as RJ being trash that we couldn't do anything rather than Bruce was some godly basketball player.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 10:08 PM

:lol Bruce would "instill fear" into the opponents, yeah no. Kobe, Nash, Dirk, TMac, VC, Ray Allen, all used to destroy him. Especially Kobe and Dirk.

apalisoc_9

07-21-2015, 10:10 PM

:lol Bruce would "instill fear" into the opponents, yeah no. Kobe, Nash, Dirk, TMac, VC, Ray Allen, all used to destroy him. Especially Kobe and Dirk.

"instill fear" "killer instinct"

:lol

z0sa

07-21-2015, 10:15 PM

:lol Bruce would "instill fear" into the opponents, yeah no. Kobe, Nash, Dirk, TMac, VC, Ray Allen, all used to destroy him. Especially Kobe and Dirk.

Lol at the thought of Danny attempting to guard Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole series.

Any of those guys in their prime could destroy any defender one on one on any given night. Thats hardly evidence for Danny > Bruce.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 10:17 PM

"instill fear" "killer instinct"

:lol
"Gritty" Hard Nosed" "Tenacious"

:lol

Proxy

07-21-2015, 10:18 PM

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 10:22 PM

Lol at the thought of Danny attempting to guard Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole series.

Any of those guys in their prime could destroy any defender one on one on any given night. Thats hardly evidence for Danny > Bruce.
Yeah I wouldn't want Danny guarding Dirk, that's retarded. I also think its retarded when people actually think bruce could guard Dirk cause he couldn't. He got his ass kicked on the reg.

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 10:27 PM

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:29 PM

One pic. What about it?

BlackSilver

07-21-2015, 10:29 PM

Hands down, Bowen (see what I did there?)

Seems as if most of the Bowen haters started watching the Spurs after 2007. Green has shown flashes but nothing consistently. Yes, Bowen played in more of a one on one era than it is now, and it is true the folks he guarded did have big games, but save for those crazy series against the Suns I don't recall teams routinely cracking 90 against the Spurs. It's almost as if those guys took it upon themselves to demolish Bruce and thus took most of the shot clock to score. And at considerable physical effort.

Lol that the team stopped Lebron in '07. That was pretty much Bowen, and mainly because Lebron couldn't shoot jumpers, the Cavs had no offense besides giving him the ball and standing around, and Bowen executed the game plan perfectly of making him shoot Js.

To watch Bowen at his best was to see a guy know exactly where his opponent wanted to go and derail him. He was always a step ahead and knew to take away the opponent's favorite move. And he was never standing still waiting for the guy to make a move first. He made their lives miserable because of how he pestered them even when just standing around.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 10:30 PM

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0605/nba_g_bowennowitzki_268.jpg http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/10/15/50/2152967/3/960x540.jpghttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/files/uploads/BruceBowenBlocksDirk.jpg
Neat pic of a block. Now post their series stats where Dirk averaged 30 and 10 on 50% shooting

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 10:32 PM

One pic. What about it?

It's fucking awesome. Thats all.

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 10:34 PM

http://www.playmakeronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Tim-Duncan-Danny-Green-Lebron-James-Dwyane-Wade-San-Antonio-Spurs-Miami-Heat-NBA-Finals-Game-6.jpg

"Mooooooooom! They're picking on me! Errrrrrrrrik! Do something!"

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:34 PM

Cool.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 10:37 PM

Look guise! Bruce shutting down lebron in the finals! :lolYeah no, lebron was blowing by him easily. Duncan cleaned up his mess beautifully.
Vid----->
https://youtu.be/qkYl1eKTfZs

z0sa

07-21-2015, 10:41 PM

Yeah I wouldn't want Danny guarding Dirk, that's retarded. I also think its retarded when people actually think bruce could guard Dirk cause he couldn't. He got his ass kicked on the reg.

The only way to stop prime Dirk was a double team. Bowen's goal wasnt to stop him. He was just trying to deny him position and make him work for his shots without calling for help. In the end, that strategy almost paid off. Fast forward to 2014, in the not too common occurrence Danny got switched onto Dirk, hello doubleteam. Bowen just had more presence on the defensive end of the court. Of course, Im sure theres certain matchups, especially with fast PGs that Danny would probably be better suited for.

z0sa

07-21-2015, 10:43 PM

Look guise! Bruce shutting down lebron in the finals! :lolYeah no, lebron was blowing by him easily. Duncan cleaned up his mess beautifully.
Vid----->
https://youtu.be/qkYl1eKTfZs

Without looking, Im gonna assume Bruce forced him to the help. And even if he did just get burned, its LeBron James dude lol

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:46 PM

Kawhi shits on bruce's defense.

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:47 PM

O ya I forgot kawhi goT dpoy.

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:48 PM

Accidently derailed thread.

barbacoataco

07-21-2015, 10:49 PM

Bowen was old in 2007. He was at his best 2003-5.

Interesting thread but ultimately pointless. Different players, both successful.

If Green was more consistent I would have voted for him, but you could go either way.

BlackSilver

07-21-2015, 10:49 PM

Without looking, Im gonna assume Bruce forced him to the help. And even if he did just get burned, its LeBron James dude lol

Wasting your breath. To some folks defense=steal, I guess. Or physically obstructing the guy maybe?

barbacoataco

07-21-2015, 10:50 PM

As good as Leonard's defense is, he gets blown up at times too.

ElNono

07-21-2015, 10:52 PM

Similar players, tbh...

Bruce had impeccable footwork to stay in front of guys, had the strength to get physical and not be overwhelmed, and most importantly, he knew exactly what kind of defense we were playing (funnel to Duncan on the baseline) and executed it night in and night out. He was also incredibly durable and extremely professional.

Danny has very good footwork too but I feel his main strength is his length, something Bruce didn't have. He still has a few minor things to clean up, like the closeouts (which we've discussed before), and the instinctive fouling when he's overpowered, but at this point you know who he is, what he can give you and he's very good at what he does.

I voted Bruce simply because he's done it consistently for longer, but when all is said and done, Danny could certainly be up there at the top.

dabom

07-21-2015, 10:53 PM

As good as Leonard's defense is, he gets blown up at times too.

Not really. Only instance I can think of was the clips series and that was because Kawhi was high double or triple picked on defense and then wasn't helped and then he had to also create on offense.

100%duncan

07-21-2015, 10:54 PM

It's not always about stats.

Bowen had a great 5 year stretch for the Spurs in which they won 3 titles and was the primary perimeter defender during those years. When his role was diminished, or done, the Spurs floundered in the playoffs until the emergence of Kawhi. Those are all the stats you need.

And green delivered in 2 straight finals, we would have a b2b if Duncan was there to rebouns for the last play and Green couldve been fmvp.

And no you cannot do a player v player without stats. I bet Green would win 3 titles with prime duncan too

BlackSilver

07-21-2015, 10:55 PM

O ya I forgot kawhi goT dpoy.

I love Kawhi but everyone knows that Bruce was denied DPOY because of Rick Carlisle's shameless inflated campaign for Ron Artest. That and the Ben Wallace fromenon.

100%duncan

07-21-2015, 10:55 PM

So basically if you pick Danny, you hate Bruce and started watching basketball after he retired. Ok.

KL2

07-21-2015, 10:56 PM

Hands down, Bowen (see what I did there?)

Seems as if most of the Bowen haters started watching the Spurs after 2007. Green has shown flashes but nothing consistently. Yes, Bowen played in more of a one on one era than it is now, and it is true the folks he guarded did have big games, but save for those crazy series against the Suns I don't recall teams routinely cracking 90 against the Spurs. It's almost as if those guys took it upon themselves to demolish Bruce and thus took most of the shot clock to score. And at considerable physical effort.

Lol that the team stopped Lebron in '07. That was pretty much Bowen, and mainly because Lebron couldn't shoot jumpers, the Cavs had no offense besides giving him the ball and standing around, and Bowen executed the game plan perfectly of making him shoot Js.

Bowen couldn't stop Lebron in '07, that was all Duncan and an entire team effort. Someone else posted a clip, you can see Bowen getting thrown around like a rag doll, he wasn't providing much resistance against Lebron. Let's not act like Lebron was in his prime either, playing on that horrific Cavs squad. The '14 version featured a vastly superior team, and a much better version of James with a 20-30lb weight increase.

barbacoataco

07-21-2015, 10:57 PM

I guess to me Bowen was stronger mentally and that's the difference. Green can get in a funk and become ineffective sometimes. But I could change my mind at some point.

Bowen was older when he got to the Spurs and was really at his best in 2003 against Kobe. By 2007 he had lost a step, and really even before that. So Green could definitely move past Bowen after a couple more years.

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 11:00 PM

Without looking, Im gonna assume Bruce forced him to the help. And even if he did just get burned, its LeBron James dude lol

Thats basically Spurs team defensive concepts 101. Perimeter defenders always give their quarry a place to go - right into help.

dabom

07-21-2015, 11:02 PM

Thats basically Spurs team defensive concepts 101. Perimeter defenders always give their quarry a place to go - right into help.

Except he was just geting blown by. Little to no funneling.

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 11:03 PM

Bowen was older when he got to the Spurs and was really at his best in 2003 against Kobe. By 2007 he had lost a step, and really even before that. So Green could definitely move past Bowen after a couple more years.

Age is an important factor related to this. Danny is in his prime right now and our most recent memories of Bruce are of a player at the end of his career. I'd like to see how Danny fares over the next few years before I pass judgment. Bruce Bowen was very very good in his best years. But so is Danny (and Danny's O is definitely a significant upgrade to Bruce's).

Darkwaters

07-21-2015, 11:06 PM

Except he was just geting blown by. Little to no funneling.

In 2007? He was also like 37 years old dude. Yea, thats a totally fair comparison to a 26 year old Danny Green.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-21-2015, 11:07 PM

Wasting your breath. To some folks defense=steal, I guess. Or physically obstructing the guy maybe?
Bruce Bowen never shut lebron down. When I saw the 07 finals I watched bruce get burned by and allow deep post position on the reg. Bruce didn't shut Bron down. The spurs double teams and packing the paint did.

ducks

07-21-2015, 11:09 PM

Kawhi shits on bruce's defense.
Not

aal04

07-21-2015, 11:12 PM

We always need a bit of a hard arse defensive player. The Rodman, Bowens, CapJacks. We have 2 elite wing defenders in kawhi/Green but neither are the type to do the dirty work. Maybe West can bring a bit of an edge to the team

Kikoluna

07-21-2015, 11:44 PM

Tough but I'd take bowen. As mentioned, he was a bit dirty and got in opponent's heads. Green is buddies with every opponent and it's always a love fest pre and post game.

KL2

07-21-2015, 11:48 PM

Green-Leonard are such great defenders, they were able to counter one of the worst defensive duo's in NBA history, Beli-Parker, people don't realize how bad that combo was. Leonard-Green not only had to guard their man, but Parker-Beli's man as well, they provided 0 defense. Any time those 2 were involved in a play I'd just pretend they weren't even there.

The Spurs' defense outside of them isn't very good. Duncan is still elite in the paint/post, but draw him out on the perimeter and he's a liability. A team can run 10 high screen and rolls over and over again and TD won't be able to defend any of them (pretty much what LA exposed). Splitter is a solid defender but was never healthy last year, so we never saw what that defensive combo truly looked like.

Mikeanaro

07-21-2015, 11:52 PM

Bowen here, gave pain in the ass to Kobe Dirk Nash Lebron etc.

Shabazz

07-21-2015, 11:58 PM

Green... Because he put his nuts on Greg Paulus' face.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:36 AM

You could say the same thing about '14. Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron. His rep as a dirty player probably cost Bruce multiple DPOY awards. Just because he didn't fill up a stat sheet people forget what he brought to the team. He instilled fear in our opponents, he got into the heads of the other team's best shooters. On top of his defense he was a 40% 3-point shooter. He was as important as the Big 3 during the '03 to '07 run.

At this point, I'm pretty much convinced you don't remember that series beyond the lineup and the result. The way the Spurs guarded James was VERY different than how they guarded him in 2014 (though more similar to how they guarded him in 2013). There's no way you can watch that video and believe that Bowen shut James down in even a token way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkYl1eKTfZs

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:39 AM

Lol at the thought of Danny attempting to guard Dirk for a whole game, much less a whole series.

Any of those guys in their prime could destroy any defender one on one on any given night. Thats hardly evidence for Danny > Bruce.

It's evidence of low standards for defense. Because Bowen didn't stop them, you and other believe they couldn't be stopped. But nowadays, the Spurs are more than capable to significantly impeding the best offensive players. I think if people had known what was coming up, there's now way they would have retired Bruce's number.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:44 AM

What?!? GTFOOH. :lol He gave Nash nightmares.

No he didn't. He was dirty/physical with Nash, and I'm sure fans ate that up, but Nash pretty much went about his business from a statistical standpoint. Not inefficiently or bogged down by turnovers, either.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 03:58 AM

It's evidence of low standards for defense. Because Bowen didn't stop them, you and other believe they couldn't be stopped. But nowadays, the Spurs are more than capable to significantly impeding the best offensive players. I think if people had known what was coming up, there's now way they would have retired Bruce's number.

They didn't retire Bruce's number because of his stats, dude. Dude is and will continue to be considered a Spurs defensive legend regardless of how well DG and KL do.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 04:03 AM

They didn't retire Bruce's number because of his stats, dude. Dude is and will continue to be considered a Spurs defensive legend regardless of how well DG and KL do.

Again, no one is denying Bowen is hyped.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 04:15 AM

Brazil

07-22-2015, 04:15 AM

Op was probably too young to see Bruce play in his prime a whole season tbh

Brazil

07-22-2015, 04:16 AM

But :cry he generates traffic :cry

z0sa

07-22-2015, 04:25 AM

Op was probably too young to see Bruce play in his prime a whole season tbh

NASF anti-Bruce shtick basically amounts to this.

:cry but but but the almighty stats say he never guarded anyone worth a damn :cry
:cry Pop must have been crazy starting him 500 straight games and winning three titles with him always guarding the opposing team's best player :cry

jesterbobman

07-22-2015, 04:47 AM

Green.

There is a fairly solid argument that Bowen was a better defender, but it's hard to separate out his ability form him being allowed to be dirty.

RPM / RAPM also have this clearly in the DG camp

Has DG as
+5.41 14-15 (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2)
+ 3.51(13-14) (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/sort/RPM/position/2)

While Jeremias Engelmann's old site has DG as:
+2.1 in 2012 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2012.html)
+0.4 in 2013 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html)
+1.3 in 2014 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html)

Bowen, by RAPM was
+1 in 2003 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2003.html )
+0.5 in 2004 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2004.html)
-0.8 in 2005 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2005.html)
-1 in 2006 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html)
- 0.4 in 2007 (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html)

Noting all the standard complaints about one number stats (Bias, depend on circumstance, don't tell the how...)

That is likely to be the one stat, where Bowen might show up well overall. His defence is really good in those figures. His D figures for a wing are great.

But even though he could shoot 40% from 3, he could only do this under very specific circumstances (Corner, open) so he didn't offer the same spacing advantages that Green offers the Spurs now. Green has more value.

I get that DG isn't hyped as part of the Big 4 as Bowen was. That doesn't mean he's not a better player.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 05:39 AM

It's just silly thinking because KL/DG are great, Bowen suddenly wouldn't be considered great during 03-07. Last I checked, he's got two more rings than either of those fellas and has played a lot more games in a Spurs uniform than either of them. DG will be immensely lucky to achieve what Bruce did in his career, and he'll have been paid a lot more to do it if he does.

Bonner has more rings than Diaw, but that doesn't make him better. This argument is silly at this point. I haven't seen a single good argument from Bowen that doesn't rely on people receding into nostalgia and not looking objectively at the past. There are plenty of games people can watch from that era (and most of us were Spurs fans back then -- shocker). Bowen lovers don't have a monopoly on the past.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 05:42 AM

NASF anti-Bruce shtick basically amounts to this.

:cry but but but the almighty stats say he never guarded anyone worth a damn :cry
:cry Pop must have been crazy starting him 500 straight games and winning three titles with him always guarding the opposing team's best player :cry

It's just that you and others sound like old folks who keep trying to argue their childhoods were better because of how cheap everything was. Bowen guarded the best opposing perimeter player. But he wasn't nearly as good at doing that as people remember. Green and Leonard are better at it. The fact that they don't typically guard Dirk means nothing. If the Spurs had prime Bowen instead of Green in 2014, Splitter still would have been on Dirk and LMA, while Bruce would have struggled to get minutes over Beli. I can appreciate Bruce being the best the Spurs could do given their financial restrictions in that era, but that doesn't take away from the fact that his overall impact is overrated.

DrSteffo

07-22-2015, 05:44 AM

Again, no one is denying Bowen is hyped.

I voted Bowen, only because of the hype of course.

ElNono

07-22-2015, 05:46 AM

At this point, I'm pretty much convinced you don't remember that series beyond the lineup and the result. The way the Spurs guarded James was VERY different than how they guarded him in 2014 (though more similar to how they guarded him in 2013). There's no way you can watch that video and believe that Bowen shut James down in even a token way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkYl1eKTfZs

He didn't say "shut down Lebon", he said "Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron", and that's exactly what that video shows. Dare him to shoot, stay in front of him, and if he drives, funnel him to the help defender and don't foul.

That was the gameplan, and he executed as well as you can ask him to execute it. Lebron was a different player back then and the Spurs were simply a different team too.

That's what our defense looked like when Tim was a little younger and rugged Oberto was paired with him.

It worked well enough to hold a 25/8/8 guy to 14/7/4, and keep a team that averaged almost 97 ppg under 80 pts.

kobyz

07-22-2015, 05:46 AM

Good thread by the OP surprisingly.

I still think it's a mediocre thread cause right now it's not even much of a discussion, it's Bruce and not even close, first Green should grow a pair, stop be too cute, lacking thoughness and needing Pop to babysitter him...

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 05:48 AM

:cry you cant beat old memories :cry
:cry the past is the best! :cry
:cry he got more ringsssss! :cry

kobyz

07-22-2015, 05:50 AM

lol at everyone overlook the leadership element of Bruce, such a great leader, also his intangibles and toughness, was like Draymond Green is now... About defense is not even close, Bruce was master also one on one and also team defense with his rotations, also much more clutch and consistent as a player, would have never let CP3 that easy drive to his right in last play of game 7...

ElNono

07-22-2015, 05:55 AM

It's just that you and others sound like old folks who keep trying to argue their childhoods were better because of how cheap everything was. Bowen guarded the best opposing perimeter player. But he wasn't nearly as good at doing that as people remember. Green and Leonard are better at it. The fact that they don't typically guard Dirk means nothing. If the Spurs had prime Bowen instead of Green in 2014, Splitter still would have been on Dirk and LMA, while Bruce would have struggled to get minutes over Beli. I can appreciate Bruce being the best the Spurs could do given their financial restrictions in that era, but that doesn't take away from the fact that his overall impact is overrated.

It has to do with the fact that he was the selfless guy that didn't get his number called on offense, he had to dance all night with the best player on the other team, and he embraced his role and executed it. And he did that over and over, night in and night out. He took pride in it. It's hard to find players like that in this league. Pop is never going to tell Danny, Kawhi or Bowen to "shut down X player". He's going to devise a gameplan based on how we do things at any given time, and expects the players to execute it. It's going to be on the whole team to get it done, and this hasn't changed with Danny or Kawhi. Sometimes the gameplan doesn't work, sometimes the players don't execute.

milkyway21

07-22-2015, 06:09 AM

Bruce Bowen has a slight edge on defense but because he's somewhat doubfful of Duncan's defensive value, I find it unrespectful. He also has a reputation of being a dirty player.
Danny Green is not as good but he is unique. He steals, & blocks shots, (& he loves Duncan & Manu more :lol )
Plus I think he's one of the few who can really limit or defend Stephen Curry. .
So, my vote goes to Green..

ceds

07-22-2015, 06:18 AM

A few thoughts:

- Whilst the advanced stats are in Danny's favor he does not have the responsibility of guarding the no.1 perimeter option every night like Bruce did which should be taken into account. Bruce also made the player he was guarding expend so much more energy then usual because of his ability to deny the ball . Guys were often well out of their comfort zone by the time they were able to make the catch.

- Neither player could score off the dribble (although Bruce did develop a reliable 15 -20ft jumper after pump faking on a hard close out), finish in the paint or hit 3's from the top of the line. Danny has a quicker release and can also shoot threes from the angles whilst Bowen was strictly in the corners. Both players relied on teammates for offense and just about all threes for both guys were assisted.

- From the opening tip Bruce brought such a high level of intensity to the team on the defensive end every night. The team used to feed of his energy and you can find many quotes by players explaining how he set the tone for the team nightly with aggressive style & effort and was always making sure guy were in the right spots, constantly screaming out play calls and helping ensure players stayed engaged.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 07:08 AM

I voted Bowen, only because of the hype of course.

At least you admit it.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 07:10 AM

It has to do with the fact that he was the selfless guy that didn't get his number called on offense, he had to dance all night with the best player on the other team, and he embraced his role and executed it. And he did that over and over, night in and night out. He took pride in it. It's hard to find players like that in this league. Pop is never going to tell Danny, Kawhi or Bowen to "shut down X player". He's going to devise a gameplan based on how we do things at any given time, and expects the players to execute it. It's going to be on the whole team to get it done, and this hasn't changed with Danny or Kawhi. Sometimes the gameplan doesn't work, sometimes the players don't execute.

You act like Green isn't humble and willing to sacrifice for the team.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 07:12 AM

He didn't say "shut down Lebon", he said "Bowen was integral to stopping Lebron", and that's exactly what that video shows.

He called Bowen a "Lebron stopper" in the post that started mine and his disagreement. And if you look at that and think Bowen had any control over what Lebron was doing, I have nothing to say to that. He wasn't a turnstile on defense, but he certainly wasn't doing an exceptional job on him. Hell, Diaw did the same level of work in 2013, and Boris isn't near the perimeter defender Bowen was (let alone Green or Leonard)

jsandiego

07-22-2015, 08:09 AM

http://imgur.com/PIyGL0w
:lol Bruce would "instill fear" into the opponents, yeah no. Kobe, Nash, Dirk, TMac, VC, Ray Allen, all used to destroy him. Especially Kobe and Dirk.
Looks like Bruce got the better of VC to me.

stnick2261

07-22-2015, 08:53 AM

Bowen should have been FMVP in '05. He was the only one to be consistent and play great every game.

MB20

07-22-2015, 09:11 AM

No disrespect to DG, but Bowen was better defensively. Nothing wrong with that.
Danny>>Bruce offensively.

Spurs had a Big 4 back then. He was THAT important to the team, IMO.

keeferob25

07-22-2015, 09:11 AM

Bowen should have been FMVP in '05. He was the only one to be consistent and play great every game.

No offense but that is one of the most ridiculous assertions on this board. I get that a lot of guys are disrespecting the hell out of Bowen but don't take to opposite extreme and try making him bigger than what he was. Duncan was definitely the most valuable player even if its his least efficient performance at that stage...he had to cancel out arguably THE GREATEST DEFENSIVE FRONT COURT in history (sans the Towers). That is actually what allowed Manu to "run wild" in isolation against Prince. Manu received very little help that series as the Wallaces were afraid to leave Duncan. So no Manu and Duncan were far more valuable than Bowen. But bowen WAS more valuable than Parker though. Ive always felt that.

barbacoataco

07-22-2015, 09:12 AM

Funny how Bowen was recognized as the best perimeter defender of his era while being "destroyed" nightly by opponents.

silverblackfan

07-22-2015, 09:12 AM

It is a bit of fuzzy memories, but I do think Danny has become one hell of a defender. The fact that he can be compared with Bruce is a credit to his craft and effort. Does he get under the skin of the opponent or have that 'mad dog' attitude like Bruce? No. He still sticks with his man and rotates very well. Nevermind all those run down blocks he has done over the last few years. For sheer defense alone, I probably prefer old school Bruce. I suspect that is nastagia thinking as Green is pretty damn active on defense now himself.
Offensively, DG takes the cake. Bowen could eventually his a solid 3, but DG is on another level when it comes to shooting. Green's improved ball-handling and willingness to be coached and improve every year shows. This makes him the better overall player.

That being said, I am still a bit confused why LMA gets Bruce's number. Bruce was cool about it, but still seems a bit weird to use a retired number. Of course, the Spurs don't give a damn, which is also kind of cool.

daledondale

07-22-2015, 09:14 AM

Bowen should have been FMVP in '05. He was the only one to be consistent and play great every game.
http://www.mashbout.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/michael-scott-what-gif.gif

MB20

07-22-2015, 09:16 AM

Funny how Bowen was recognized as the best perimeter defender of his era while being "destroyed" nightly by opponents.

You have no idea, or you are trolling.

keeferob25

07-22-2015, 09:17 AM

You have no idea, or you are trolling.

I think he was being sarcastic

couchman

07-22-2015, 09:18 AM

I would probably take Green, but it's incredibly close.
It really depends on the era as a tie breaker.
Bowen played during a time where defense was more important.
Green plays in an era where the 3 pointer is more important.

Green is an elite 3 point shooter and a very good defender.
Bowen was an elite defender and a very good 3 point shooter.

Some people may forget just how amazing Bowen was on defense.
He was a game changer on D in an era where defense won championships.
He could defend 1-4 and cause those players to significantly alter their games.
He took on Kobe and Dirk in their primes and affected their games more than anyone else in the league ever did.
And let's face it, Bowen wasn't afraid to get a little bit dirty sometimes to get the job done, something that was valuable in his day but isn't really part of the game anymore. :)

Dex

07-22-2015, 09:22 AM

People talking about Bruce while having no clue about him...

Stick to trolling, kid, you don't have the level to do more.

Yeah this thread is a good barometer for who was a fan before 2008.

MB20

07-22-2015, 09:26 AM

I think he was being sarcastic

My bad then. More blue font please! :bobo

Chinook

07-22-2015, 09:45 AM

Yeah this thread is a good barometer for who was a fan before 2008.

Or who can look back at that time objectively or not.

buujness

07-22-2015, 09:50 AM

Or who can look back at that time objectively or not.
Or who suffers from recency bias and who doesn't.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 09:54 AM

Why do people who choose Bruce say these things...

1. You were a fan only after he retired
2. You are anti-bruce, even though a lot of us really liked Bruce and up until now
3. Say the players DG are defending are not of the same caliber as the players bruce were defending (cp3, wade, durant, westbrook, lillard, prime lebron vs kobe, dirk, rip, young lebron)
4. Cant provide facts that state how he is the better overall player
5. Uses ring count when he played with prime tim, prime manu

If any of pro-Bowen in this thread can create an argument in favor of Brucie without using the things above then we start talking. If not, you are just like kobe fans who use stupid shit like "killer insticts" "mamba mentality" in debates or all time lists

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 09:55 AM

Bowen was better defensively. Do people forget how the Spurs struggled defensive once Bowen got old and was traded to the Bucks.

Kawhi>>>Bowen and that is what this thread should be about. Just sayin, how many 1st/2nd all NBA defensive teams does Green have over Bowen. Yeah, even the coaches and press know the value Bowen brought to the Spurs.

kobyz

07-22-2015, 10:03 AM

Why do people who choose Bruce say these things...

If any of pro-Bowen in this thread can create an argument in favor of Brucie without using the things above then we start talking. If not, you are just like kobe fans who use stupid shit like "killer insticts" "mamba mentality" in debates or all time lists

If you calling leadership and intangibles things a stupid shit there is really no point trying to argue with you, you have a mentality of a six yo...

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 10:09 AM

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 10:12 AM

If you calling leadership and intangibles things a stupid shit there is really no point trying to argue with you, you have a mentality of a six yo...

You're like the dumbest poster in the site bro. Some posters think you are a troll but your takes really are your takes...

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 10:15 AM

Just to mention, one of those 2nd all Defensive All NBA team was when he was with the Heat which proves that playing with Prime Duncan was the reason for Bowen's success. It made his life easier, but it wasn't the reason he alone was a great defensive player.

Frank Dux

07-22-2015, 10:16 AM

And green delivered in 2 straight finals, we would have a b2b if Duncan was there to rebouns for the last play and Green couldve been fmvp.

It's important to note that DG threw up brick after brick and let himself get pretty frazzled in that game. His 1-7 from the field was also pretty damaging in a game that close.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 10:16 AM

5X defensive All NBA 1st team
3X defensive All NBA 2nd team

4X finished in the top 3 for DPOY. (Should have won in '04). Only time ever Pop ever said a player of his deserved an award he did not win.

Green

Not one allocate thus far.

An argument not using the aforementioned criteria.

And kobe has how many all defensive team awards? How did Marcus Camby win over duncan for DPOY? Why is Jordan always a DPOY candidate when advanced stats say otherwise?

Media awards are questionable. Everyone knows that. Now, please present some stats that suggest that bruce is the better player. Chinook already posted some in the favor of Green but he was countered by cliche takes like bruce was fiercer, he guarded better players etc2.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 10:18 AM

It's important to note that DG threw up brick after brick and let himself get pretty frazzled in that game. His 1-7 from the field was also pretty damaging in a game that close.

Yes but had we won game 6 fmvp was between Duncan, Parker and DG. DG was the one of the biggest reasons we won games 3 and 5.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 10:19 AM

Or who suffers from recency bias and who doesn't.

Not recency bias when you can actually look at old games.

Frank Dux

07-22-2015, 10:20 AM

Yes but had we won game 6 fmvp was between Duncan, Parker and DG. DG was the one of the biggest reasons we won games 3 and 5.

Sure he was. He was on fire. But he was also one of the significant reasons we lost Game 7. I love DG, but it was hard to watch him in that game.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 10:23 AM

It's important to note that DG threw up brick after brick and let himself get pretty frazzled in that game. His 1-7 from the field was also pretty damaging in a game that close.

Yeah, but he was nearly dominant defensively in Game Six. He made what should have been the greatest defensive play in team history in OT.

Green was a nearly unstoppable force for five games of a Finals series. People who argue Bowen was in Green's zip code offensively seem to forget that.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 10:25 AM

Sure he was. He was on fire. But he was also one of the significant reasons we lost Game 7. I love DG, but it was hard to watch him in that game.
Agree but I dont see the significance of that here. Green isnt supposed to be in that situation in the first place (relied upon to win a finals series), you can even use this to his side, the Spurs never relied on Bruce offense while DG's threes can either make or break the series.

Spurs Brazil

07-22-2015, 10:31 AM

barbacoataco

07-22-2015, 10:38 AM

Sum it up
Bowen- better defense, more consistent, more toughness
Green- better offense, good defense, somewhat inconsistent

How you put that together is a matter of opinion. You don't have to bash one player to make a case for the other.

kobyz

07-22-2015, 10:49 AM

Green also is not that much better on offense like people try to make him to be, consider he tends to get into the biggest shooting slumps and that Bowen had much better floater after a close out...

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 10:58 AM

And kobe has how many all defensive team awards? How did Marcus Camby win over duncan for DPOY? Why is Jordan always a DPOY candidate when advanced stats say otherwise?

Media awards are questionable. Everyone knows that. Now, please present some stats that suggest that bruce is the better player. Chinook already posted some in the favor of Green but he was countered by cliche takes like bruce was fiercer, he guarded better players etc2.

I forgot the article because its been so long, but there was one that showed all the player Bowen guarded over the years and how every single one except Ray Allen all had noticeably worse stats with Bowen guarding them as opposed to the their avg stats against other players. For Kobe, Kobe scored like 4 points less than is career avg and took 3 more FG per game. His FG% dropped to 41% to 42% pg as oppose to his career avg at the time of 47-48%. Even he said Bowen was the toughest defender he faced. While others people bitch about Bowen, Kobe said Bruce just made you work harder to get your points and had mad respect for him as a defender.

Just to be fair, Green mostly guards spot up shooters. Look at Harden on Green.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/houston-rockets/players/james-harden/comparison/15/10/158/398

Harden for the most part has killed Green. Green is great at locking down spot up shooters like Allen, Thompson, etc. But Green is hardly left alone on an island against a team's best offensive player like Bruce was almost every night. When Green is, as in the case of Harden, is left alone against a guy that can dribble and is a player maker, he gets owned QUITE A BIT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0-_qR53UQ

Green has Kawhi to thank for being better defensively as Kawhi is the guy that usually takes the player's best offensive wing player out of the game.

Johnny RIngo

07-22-2015, 11:12 AM

It's not always about stats.

Bowen had a great 5 year stretch for the Spurs in which they won 3 titles and was the primary perimeter defender during those years. When his role was diminished, or done, the Spurs floundered in the playoffs until the emergence of Kawhi. Those are all the stats you need.

Convenient that you ignore that 5 year stretch coincided with Duncan's prime. And Spurs floundering in the playoffs in the late 2000s had less to do with Bowen and more to do with Duncan exiting his prime.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 11:15 AM

I forgot the article because its been so long, but there was one that showed all the player Bowen guarded over the years and how every single one except Ray Allen all had noticeably worse stats with Bowen guarding them as opposed to the their avg stats against other players. For Kobe, Kobe scored like 4 points less than is career avg and took 3 more FG per game. His FG% dropped to 41% to 42% pg as oppose to his career avg at the time of 47-48%. Even he said Bowen was the toughest defender he faced. While others people bitch about Bowen, Kobe said Bruce just made you work harder to get your points and had mad respect for him as a defender.

Just to be fair, Green mostly guards spot up shooters. Look at Harden on Green.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/houston-rockets/players/james-harden/comparison/15/10/158/398

Harden for the most part has killed Green. Green is great at locking down spot up shooters like Allen, Thompson, etc. But Green is hardly left alone on an island against a team's best offensive player like Bruce was almost every night. When Green is, as in the case of Harden, is left alone against a guy that can dribble and is a player maker, he gets owned QUITE A BIT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0-_qR53UQ

Green has Kawhi to thank for being better defensively as Kawhi is the guy that usually takes the player's best offensive wing player out of the game.

And like others habe said here, Bowen also didnt own Dirk, Lebron, Nash contrary to popular nostalgic memory/opinion. Kawhi didnt even have to guard durant a whole lot last year, it was Green who was primarily against him. Bruce also has to thank Prime Tim for making his life better by defending the paint when his man got past him.

Johnny RIngo

07-22-2015, 11:21 AM

bowen wouldve shut down cp3, tbh

Paul was face raping Bruce in the 2008 playoffs. Ended up in a 3-1 deficit with Bruce guarding CP3. We were only able to turn that series around after Pop switched Bowen onto someone he could actually defend(Peja)

Amuseddaysleeper

07-22-2015, 11:24 AM

I'm beyond shocked that this is a debate.

Bowen used to take opposing players out of a series altogether.

Bowen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Green

And this is coming from someone who loves the hell out of Green. Bowen was an absolute legend and one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 11:24 AM

Convenient that you ignore that 5 year stretch coincided with Duncan's prime. And Spurs floundering in the playoffs in the late 2000s had less to do with Bowen and more to do with Duncan exiting his prime.

But why did the Spurs start gaining PO success again once they got a player of Bowen's caliber defensively in Kawhi. Look at Duncan's defensive rating, they were still very good (top 5 league wide) during that playoff drought. But Duncan guards the post, not the WING.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-22-2015, 11:31 AM

Chinook

07-22-2015, 11:31 AM

But why did the Spurs start gaining PO success again once they got a player of Bowen's caliber defensively in Kawhi. Look at Duncan's defensive rating, they were still very good (top 5 league wide) during that playoff drought. But Duncan guards the post, not the WING.

Watch the video I posted of the Spurs defending Lebron in 2007, and watch Duncan in recent years. You should be able to see why the Spurs couldn't defend on the perimeter once Duncan got old.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 11:32 AM

And like others habe said here, Bowen also didnt own Dirk, Lebron, Nash contrary to popular nostalgic memory/opinion. Kawhi didnt even have to guard durant a whole lot last year, it was Green who was primarily against him. Bruce also has to thank Prime Tim for making his life better by defending the paint when his man got past him.

Let me see, Lebron, Bowen 37, Lebron 23 when they met in the finals.

Dirk. Let me see. 6'11 and a huge wingspan that he could easily shoot over Bowen. Yeah, there is a reason why someone line Splitter had way more success.

Nash. Don't get me started. Is Bowen to blame that Amare would score like 40 ppg off the pnr. Nash was too quick for Bowen, but he was the best on the team off slowing him down despite it. No one of the Spurs team could stop Nash. Even Kawhi, who I think is a better defender than Bruce ever was (by a slight margin) couldn't have stopped Nash at the time.

But players like Kobe, Carter, Van Horn, Butler, Peja, Marion, Pierce, etc all had way worse stats with Bruce guarding them and he did so mostly one-on-one.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 11:35 AM

Let me see, Lebron, Bowen 37, Lebron 23 when they met in the finals.

Dirk. Let me see. 6'11 and a huge wingspan that he could easily shoot over Bowen. Yeah, there is a reason why someone line Splitter had way more success.

Nash. Don't get me started. Is Bowen to blame that Amare would score like 40 ppg off the pnr. Nash was too quick for Bowen, but he was the best on the team off slowing him down despite it. No one of the Spurs team could stop Nash. Even Kawhi, who I think is a better defender than Bruce ever was (by a slight margin) couldn't have stopped Nash at the time.

But players like Kobe, Carter, Van Horn, Butler, Peja, Marion, Pierce, etc all had way worse stats with Bruce guarding them and he did so mostly one-on-one.

I don't think anyone has too big of a problem saying Bowen was good guarding SGs and SFs. The issue is that people try to credit him with guarding PGs and PFs, which he simply wasn't even passable at. That shouldn't be held against him, but it's also not a credit to him.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 11:36 AM

Watch the video I posted of the Spurs defending Lebron in 2007, and watch Duncan in recent years. You should be able to see why the Spurs couldn't defend on the perimeter once Duncan got old.

I have seen it. But why are they capable now. Its mostly because of Kawhi. The two players that have the most impact on the Spurs team defensive rating over the past two years were, Kawhi and Splitter. Not even Duncan.

I agree Duncan was a defensive beast in his prime. But what allowed him to dominate the paint was that Bowen made is so damn hard for players to get there.

Watch Green and Bowen highlights playing the PNR. Green 4 outta 5 times is trailing the play. Bowen is like Kawhi where he is still right along side his defender and contests the shot.

Green is a very good defender. But he is not on Kawhi's or Bowen's level.

Floyd Pacquiao

07-22-2015, 11:38 AM

I don't think anyone has too big of a problem saying Bowen was good guarding SGs and SFs. The issue is that people try to credit him with guarding PGs and PFs, which he simply wasn't even passable at. That shouldn't be held against him, but it's also not a credit to him.
Yep, people just tend to overrate the past. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug

Chinook

07-22-2015, 11:41 AM

I have seen it. But why are they capable now.

They are better now because both Green and Leonard are BETTER than Bowen was. They don't just have to be at his level nowadays with the rule changes and older core. They have to do more than Bowen ever did.

I agree Duncan was a defensive beast in his prime. But what allowed him to dominate the paint was that Bowen made is so damn hard for players to get there.

Because Bowen was totally impeding Lebron's progress in that vid.

Watch Green and Bowen highlights playing the PNR. Green 4 outta 5 times is trailing the play. Bowen is like Kawhi where he is still right along side his defender and contests the shot.

Do you have any highlights you want to show?

z0sa

07-22-2015, 11:43 AM

Paul was face raping Bruce in the 2008 playoffs. Ended up in a 3-1 deficit with Bruce guarding CP3. We were only able to turn that series around after Pop switched Bowen onto someone he could actually defend(Peja)

Every part of this is wrong.

1) Spurs tied the series 2-2
2a) Peja was dominating Manu Ginobili off the ball which is the only reason why the switch occurred
2b) Bowen switching from CP3 and TP switching to CP3 and dueling him down for a mostly even matchup changed the dynamic of the series. IOW, Bruce shutting Peja down in no small part contributed to allowing the Spurs to come back from down 0-2 after being blown the fuck out twice in a row.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 12:08 PM

They are better now because both Green and Leonard are BETTER than Bowen was. They don't just have to be at his level nowadays with the rule changes and older core. They have to do more than Bowen ever did.

Because Bowen was totally impeding Lebron's progress in that vid.

Do you have any highlights you want to show?

37 yo Bowen against Lebron and yet Lebron, shot 35% for the series. Wow, one play and he completely owned Bowen. Lebron went from averaging 27 ppg in the previous series to only 22 ppg against Bowen. He avg liked 6 TURNOVERS A GAME AS WELL, and only avg 2.6 TO a games in the previous series.

Seriously, do you think Green can do that. NOOOOOOOOOOO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3oR0dPN1YA

Look at Green. And I can post NUMEROUS videos of him being completely outta of the play once he gets picked. Kawhi at least fights through it and is on his guy, much like Bowen use to do.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 12:09 PM

Every part of this is wrong.

Every part except Bowen getting 'face-raped' by CP3, apparently. You didn't refute that. Not that I blame old Bruce for not being able to check young Paul, mind you. But he sure wasn't stopping him.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 12:13 PM

Chinook

07-22-2015, 12:18 PM

37 yo Bowen against Lebron and yet Lebron, shot 35% for the series. Wow, one play and he completely owned Bowen. Lebron went from averaging 27 ppg in the previous series to only 22 ppg against Bowen. He avg liked 7 TURNOVERS A GAME AS WELL, and only avg 2.6 TO a games in the previous series.

Just admit you didn't watch that video. It's really easy to see how Lebron was defended if you do. So much help, it was insane. So much size toss at him from Duncan and Oberto. So many guards digging at the ball. The other Cavs may as well have not been there. It was like D-Rob against the Rockets.

Look at Green. And I can post NUMEROUS videos of him being completely outta of the play once he gets picked. Kawhi at least fights through it and is on his guy, much like Bowen use to do.

Green was the on-ball defender on a Harden pick-and-roll exactly once in that video, and Jones was sliding to keep him from getting back in the play. Leonard was the defender for most of that game (which pissed me off, I recall, because Green was on Parsons, and both Danny and Kawhi struggled defensively), and he was trailing on nearly every play in that video.

Was this really the best piece of evidence you could find to support your assertion?

Chinook

07-22-2015, 12:21 PM

And you say that Green and Kawhi make the Spurs better defensively. What people fail to see is that Manu defensive rating in his prime was better than Green's. Manu is a much under rated defender in this prime. This Spurs team hasn't come close to be as defensively dominated as the mid 00's Spurs were. But they are much better offensively, so it balances itself out.

Well first, you're using DRtg, which has been demonstrated time and again as being a nearly worthless stat for perimeter players.

Second, saying that the Spurs had another elite defender in Bowen's time hardly gives him an advantage in this debate. All that "Bowen had to carry the defense" rhetoric rings hollow if we agree Ginobili was great as well.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 12:22 PM

Every part except Bowen getting 'face-raped' by CP3, apparently. You didn't refute that. Not that I blame old Bruce for not being able to check young Paul, mind you. But he sure wasn't stopping him.

There is no reason to refute it, it is irrelevant. Pop didnt make the switch because Bowen couldnt guard CP3. He made the switch to shut Peja down and boy did Bruce do that..

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-22-2015, 12:27 PM

Well first, you're using DRtg, which has been demonstrated time and again as being a nearly worthless stat for perimeter players.

Second, saying that the Spurs had another elite defender in Bowen's time hardly gives him an advantage in this debate. All that "Bowen had to carry the defense" rhetoric rings hollow if we agree Ginobili was great as well.

Manu wasn't great but he was very good much like Green. And yes, I watched the Cavs series. Spurs had a game plan for Lebron, but it all started with Bowen forcing him off the spots he was most comfortable, which led to 35% shooting and 6 TO's a game.

And watch the video I post Previously of harden. I believe 3x times Green trailed the play after the PNR and didn't even contest the shot. The one time Green did catch up is because Harden stopped and stuttered stepped and still made the shot.

We can go on all day with this debate. But I was around during the Bowen era and Green IS NOT a better defender than Bowen was, plain and simple. Bowen, Cooper and Pippen are the best 3 perimeter defenders of all time.

I like Green, and he is a very good defender, but he is not in the all time great realm.

ceds

07-22-2015, 12:29 PM

If both players were on the same team would you seriously put Green on the no.1 option?

We are talking about the greatest perimeter defender of his era. Bruce is simply on another level and no one made superstars work harder then Bowen did. He would chase players all over the floor denying the pass that when they finally did make the catch were often well out of there comfort zone and had spent much more energy then usual. He totally shut down players like Marion and Peja which were crucial to playoff series wins whilst limiting the true superstars ( Kobe, Dirk etc) by at a minimum holding them to the teams goal of 1pt per shot attempt. He had times where cracked the psyche of players and took out of the game . All defensive team every year etc etc

Sure Green is the better shooter of the two but neither player is/was starting for the Spurs for their offensive talent.

Neither player can create their own shot and rely on teammates to assist all of there attempts. Both guys had clutch shooting playoff runs....its not a huge difference when you consider Green is playing in a much more developed offensive system that allows for more points and cleaner looks . Although id agree Green is a better offensive player simply because he can shoot threes from more spots on the floor whilst Bruce was strictly in the corners as a 5th option who spaced the court.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 12:30 PM

There is no reason to refute it, it is irrelevant. Pop didnt make the switch because Bowen couldnt guard CP3. He made the switch to shut Peja down and boy did Bruce do that..

It's not irrelevant. If Bowen couldn't guard Paul, he couldn't. It doesn't matter why Pop switched them.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 12:31 PM

Now youre just being obtuse.

MB20

07-22-2015, 12:33 PM

“Bruce Bowen was the premier perimeter defender in the NBA for close to a decade,” said Spurs Head Coach Gregg Popovich. “His success is proof that hard work and determination do, in fact, pay off. Statistics are meaningless when talking about his importance to this franchise. The simple fact is the Spurs don't win NBA Championships in 2003, 2005 and 2007 without Bruce Bowen.”

http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/120123_spurs_retire_bowen_jersey

ceds

07-22-2015, 12:34 PM

2008 was CP3's best year by a good margin, no one was able to guard him that season.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 12:39 PM

silverblackfan

07-22-2015, 12:49 PM

kobyz

07-22-2015, 01:08 PM

What a bs, disrespectful thread, comparing a spurs legend to someone who still need to grow a pair...

ElNono

07-22-2015, 01:12 PM

You act like Green isn't humble and willing to sacrifice for the team.

No I don't. Green just doesn't have Bowen's role defensively. That's not a knock on Danny, it's just the reality that we defend in a different way than we did back then. In this defense, Green does a remarkable job, but he has many years ahead of him. That's why I said the comparison will probably be more "fair" later down the road.

He called Bowen a "Lebron stopper" in the post that started mine and his disagreement. And if you look at that and think Bowen had any control over what Lebron was doing, I have nothing to say to that. He wasn't a turnstile on defense, but he certainly wasn't doing an exceptional job on him. Hell, Diaw did the same level of work in 2013, and Boris isn't near the perimeter defender Bowen was (let alone Green or Leonard)

He was doing exactly the job Pop wanted him to do. Much like Kawhi was told to hold back on James in 2013 and that's exactly what he did. If you're not going to do what the coach tells you to do, you go think about it on the bench, especially for players that can't bring much at all on the other end.

Trying to advance that the Spurs couldn't "upgrade" from Bowen for financial reasons after he played 8 consecutive seasons with the team is asinine. A plethora of players came and went during that period and everybody that matters got a pay rise, including Bowen. He was what Pop wanted for that team, because the combo of him and Tim worked. Pop valued it so much, he has his jersey in the rafters. Heck, Pop himself has downplayed Bowen's offense, but at the same time said he played not good defense, but great defense, and was trying to get Kawhi to that defensive level.

It's entirely possible that Danny is the better one on one defender in a vacuum, but does that really matters? At this level what matters is executing the gameplan, and Bruce did that, and that's why he played as much as he did with us back then, and he was an integral part of that success.

That doesn't mean that Danny doesn't do it too, but it's well known that one of his major flaws early on was his focus and attention to detail, and that's why Pop was hard on him. And I think a big reason for that is that Pop was used to a guy like Bruce, who he told "do X" and Bruce would do exactly that. Now, Danny seems to have grown out of it, and hopefully what that means is we're going to get an improved Danny Green, which hopefully translates to success and when it's all said and done, might mean he's remembered as the better player between him and Bruce.

I just think this is another instance, like with Tiago/Diaw, where your valuation of talent doesn't really align with how Pop or the Spurs value talent.

tmtcsc

07-22-2015, 01:15 PM

When the Spurs needed a stop it was Bruce who stepped up. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Chris Paul, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, etc.. Bowen had Nash yelling at refs all game long and didn't take shit from anyone.

Nice vids down memory lane:

Retrospective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWUoqrr154

Chris Paul:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmI4r1XviVI

Brazil

07-22-2015, 01:40 PM

:cry you cant beat old memories :cry
:cry the past is the best! :cry
:cry he got more ringsssss! :cry

:rolleyes

Brazil

07-22-2015, 01:41 PM

Chinook

07-22-2015, 02:15 PM

No I don't. Green just doesn't have Bowen's role defensively. That's not a knock on Danny, it's just the reality that we defend in a different way than we did back then. In this defense, Green does a remarkable job, but he has many years ahead of him. That's why I said the comparison will probably be more "fair" later down the road.

Bowen may have had a better career than Danny at this point, but there's no reason to assume Danny has to play another three years with the Spurs to be in the conversation for better player. C'mon Nono.

He was doing exactly the job Pop wanted him to do. Much like Kawhi was told to hold back on James in 2013 and that's exactly what he did. If you're not going to do what the coach tells you to do, you go think about it on the bench, especially for players that can't bring much at all on the other end.

Unless Pop told Bowen, "Get beat," I doubt what we saw was Bowen just following orders. Duncan was able to swallow guys whole back then on the perimeter. If anything, all this shows is that Bruce had a much easier job defensively.

Trying to advance that the Spurs couldn't "upgrade" from Bowen for financial reasons after he played 8 consecutive seasons with the team is asinine. A plethora of players came and went during that period and everybody that matters got a pay rise, including Bowen. He was what Pop wanted for that team, because the combo of him and Tim worked. Pop valued it so much, he has his jersey in the rafters. Heck, Pop himself has downplayed Bowen's offense, but at the same time said he played not good defense, but great defense, and was trying to get Kawhi to that defensive level.

What does that even prove? Bowen was so awesome that he got like $4 Million a year at his peak. And I don't doubt that Bruce could have gotten more money than that somewhere else, but the fact that he had to take less to stay with the Spurs underscores that the Spurs didn't have the money to spend on an upgrade at that spot. Tim was still a $20 Million player back them, and Parker's deal way better large by the end of it.

It's entirely possible that Danny is the better one on one defender in a vacuum, but does that really matters? At this level what matters is executing the gameplan, and Bruce did that, and that's why he played as much as he did with us back then, and he was an integral part of that success.

Yes. That's what the majority of this thread is about.

That doesn't mean that Danny doesn't do it too, but it's well known that one of his major flaws early on was his focus and attention to detail, and that's why Pop was hard on him. And I think a big reason for that is that Pop was used to a guy like Bruce, who he told "do X" and Bruce would do exactly that. Now, Danny seems to have grown out of it, and hopefully what that means is we're going to get an improved Danny Green, which hopefully translates to success and when it's all said and done, might mean he's remembered as the better player between him and Bruce.

I don't disagree with that. But a coach being frustrated doesn't mean that player is worse.

I just think this is another instance, like with Tiago/Diaw, where your valuation of talent doesn't really align with how Pop or the Spurs value talent.

Which is why when Pop scratches his leg, I don't feel it. People should make their own judgement. Trying to draw credibility for your argument by citing credible people who support it is a logical fallacy.

Johnny RIngo

07-22-2015, 02:42 PM

Every part of this is wrong.

1) Spurs tied the series 2-2
2a) Peja was dominating Manu Ginobili off the ball which is the only reason why the switch occurred
2b) Bowen switching from CP3 and TP switching to CP3 and dueling him down for a mostly even matchup changed the dynamic of the series. IOW, Bruce shutting Peja down in no small part contributed to allowing the Spurs to come back from down 0-2 after being blown the fuck out twice in a row.

The poster I replied to insisted that Bowen could stop Paul. Facts tell us otherwise. Paul dominated that matchup and put up monster numbers against Bruce.

z0sa

07-22-2015, 03:00 PM

You were still wrong, because he did not guard CP3 for 4 games. He only guarded him 2 out of 7.

Johnny RIngo

07-22-2015, 03:11 PM

You were still wrong, because he did not guard CP3 for 4 games. He only guarded him 2 out of 7.

Which is irrelevant. The guy insisted Bowen would shut down Paul. Facts tell us otherwise. Nice job dodging the real issue here though(Bowen's ability to defend point guards as effectively as Green).

z0sa

07-22-2015, 03:17 PM

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:23 PM

:lol youre the one dodging the fact you used a wrong series score while doubling the sample size so it would fit your narrative. Your credibility's definitely questionable when you egregiously misrepresent one side of the equation for such purposes.

JR's point is that Bowen never showed he was a better match-up against CP3 than Green. He wasn't the one with the burden of proof, so shrinking the sample size is irrelevant. In other words, you've said nothing to back up the assertion that Bowen could check Paul, and picking those holes in his rebuttal doesn't make the original contention any stronger.

barbacoataco

07-22-2015, 03:27 PM

I could understand if some feel Green's offense outweighs Bowen's defense. But trying to rewrite history or maintain that Bowen wasn't an elite defender is ridiculous. In 2008 Bowen was 38 years old. Discussions like this don't have to turn in to bashing Spurs greats. This board is finally worth reading again so let's try to keep the quality oc posting up.

spurraider21

07-22-2015, 03:29 PM

SpursforSix

07-22-2015, 03:29 PM

Bowen was more consistent on the 3 but he also was limited to the corners mostly. He didn't attempt as much from the top as DG. He was also better at taking it to the rim that DG. I wouldn't call him a finisher but he could make a layup.
Also a better defender IMO.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:35 PM

:rolleyes

Don't be that guy, raider.

spurraider21

07-22-2015, 03:39 PM

Don't be that guy, raider.
You were just getting awfully defensive. Somebody says Nash > Paul and you threw a small fit.
fwiw i agree that bruce was pretty bad at defending PG's and PF's. but in fairness, he typically drew tougher assignments than Green does, since we didn't have a kawhi to lean on.

Chinook

07-22-2015, 03:46 PM

You were just getting awfully defensive. Somebody says Nash > Paul and you threw a small fit.
fwiw i agree that bruce was pretty bad at defending PG's and PF's. but in fairness, he typically drew tougher assignments than Green does, since we didn't have a kawhi to lean on.

When I say, "Don't be that guy", I mean that guy who nitpicks at things like me using diction you didn't like.

I clearly don't mean absolutely everyone. I mean that folks thinks that Bowen had harder assignments. Prime KD and Lebron are the two best offensive players (or at least the hardest to guard) in either era. And the rules and having a worst Tim makes it even more slanted. I really don't see how the competition was superior.

ElNono

07-22-2015, 04:04 PM

Bowen may have had a better career than Danny at this point, but there's no reason to assume Danny has to play another three years with the Spurs to be in the conversation for better player. C'mon Nono.

That's because you're looking at the individual, and not how that individual impacts the overall team success. Both are very subjective. Danny has been pretty successful with the Spurs, but Bowen has been integral to the most dominant stretch of the franchise. It's a high bar, and Danny might help the Spurs surpass it. The FO has certainly put the tools around to do so.

Unless Pop told Bowen, "Get beat," I doubt what we saw was Bowen just following orders. Duncan was able to swallow guys whole back then on the perimeter. If anything, all this shows is that Bruce had a much easier job defensively.

It takes discipline to do anything. Pop specifically did not want Lebron going to the free throw line, so Bowen specifically didn't foul on drives. If anything, a fan of Danny Green should know how hard it is not to instinctively throw a hand in there and foul. Was it an easier job? Maybe. Was it what the coach wanted and what gave the Spurs a measurable defensive edge in that series, absolutely.

What does that even prove? Bowen was so awesome that he got like $4 Million a year at his peak. And I don't doubt that Bruce could have gotten more money than that somewhere else, but the fact that he had to take less to stay with the Spurs underscores that the Spurs didn't have the money to spend on an upgrade at that spot. Tim was still a $20 Million player back them, and Parker's deal way better large by the end of it.

Bruce took less only one year (before getting old), and he was rewarded with the $4m extension you mention afterwards. It's no different than what Danny did this summer. I think it speaks way more about the character than anything else.

What's silly is to advance that the Spurs didn't "upgrade" from Bowen for any kind of financial reasons. The Spurs had a ton of chances to do this alleged "upgrade", including the year he was handed that $4m extension, and didn't do so, which goes to show they were plenty happy with what Bowen brought to the table.

Yes. That's what the majority of this thread is about.

No it's not. There's help defense, there's rotations, there's execution... there's a ton of stuff that go way beyond "one on one" defense that translate into team success.

Which is why when Pop scratches his leg, I don't feel it. People should make their own judgement. Trying to draw credibility for your argument by citing credible people who support it is a logical fallacy.

I didn't cite support for my opinion. I merely stated it. You can disagree with it, that's fine.

ElNono

07-22-2015, 04:07 PM

Come on, guys like Kobe, Dirk, T-Mac, Ray Allen, all in their primes, were pretty tough to cover... Lebron is probably superior physically, but I'm not sure I would put KD above some of those guys in their prime.

Frank Dux

07-22-2015, 06:45 PM

Agree but I dont see the significance of that here. Green isnt supposed to be in that situation in the first place (relied upon to win a finals series), you can even use this to his side, the Spurs never relied on Bruce offense while DG's threes can either make or break the series.

I think it was significant though. His role on offense was to do nothing more than make threes and he went 1-7 when it mattered most, and in a very close game. It's the same role that Bruce had. Neither one of them are relied upon to make or break a series. They're both outstanding 3 point shooters who just get to shoot from their sweet spots all night. But taking a lot of shots in Game 7 and missing nearly all of them has to be considered a significant reason that the Spurs lost that close game.

Frank Dux

07-22-2015, 06:46 PM

Come on, guys like Kobe, Dirk, T-Mac, Ray Allen, all in their primes, were pretty tough to cover...

And literally making them cry, kick and scream. lol

ducks

07-22-2015, 07:21 PM

did not kobe say bowen was the toughest

Mikeanaro

07-22-2015, 07:29 PM

did not kobe say bowen was the toughest
Bowen and Horry were tough players and kind of dirty too, they pushed to the limits to win, Danny is not that kind of guy, CP3 was injured and he never took advantage.

dabom

07-22-2015, 07:33 PM

That's because you're looking at the individual, and not how that individual impacts the overall team success. Both are very subjective. Danny has been pretty successful with the Spurs, but Bowen has been integral to the most dominant stretch of the franchise. It's a high bar, and Danny might help the Spurs surpass it. The FO has certainly put the tools around to do so.

It takes discipline to do anything. Pop specifically did not want Lebron going to the free throw line, so Bowen specifically didn't foul on drives. If anything, a fan of Danny Green should know how hard it is not to instinctively throw a hand in there and foul. Was it an easier job? Maybe. Was it what the coach wanted and what gave the Spurs a measurable defensive edge in that series, absolutely.

Bruce took less only one year (before getting old), and he was rewarded with the $4m extension you mention afterwards. It's no different than what Danny did this summer. I think it speaks way more about the character than anything else.

What's silly is to advance that the Spurs didn't "upgrade" from Bowen for any kind of financial reasons. The Spurs had a ton of chances to do this alleged "upgrade", including the year he was handed that $4m extension, and didn't do so, which goes to show they were plenty happy with what Bowen brought to the table.

No it's not. There's help defense, there's rotations, there's execution... there's a ton of stuff that go way beyond "one on one" defense that translate into team success.

I didn't cite support for my opinion. I merely stated it. You can disagree with it, that's fine.

Most dominant stretch in spurs history because he had fucking prime duncan. :lmao

We'd have 2 rings already if manu didn't screw it up and maybe 3 if pop wasn't a bitch this year and maybe 4 if the refs don't fuck us in 2012. All without prime duncan. I'd say this stretch is just as good. The 2014 spurs could probably mop the floor with any of those other teams. just saying.

Mikeanaro

07-22-2015, 07:45 PM

Most dominant stretch in spurs history because he had fucking prime duncan. :lmao

We'd have 2 rings already if manu didn't screw it up and maybe 3 if pop wasn't a bitch this year and maybe 4 if the refs don't fuck us in 2012. All without prime duncan. I'd say this stretch is just as good. The 2014 spurs could probably mop the floor with any of those other teams. just saying.
Agreed but since we are talking about Danny he was MIA during games 6 and 7 so he was part of those ringless finals along with Porker, Manu Kawhi missing their freebies and Gary Neal.
And he was MIA again during the Clips series, one good game out of 7.

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 08:45 PM

I think it was significant though. His role on offense was to do nothing more than make threes and he went 1-7 when it mattered most, and in a very close game. It's the same role that Bruce had. Neither one of them are relied upon to make or break a series. They're both outstanding 3 point shooters who just get to shoot from their sweet spots all night. But taking a lot of shots in Game 7 and missing nearly all of them has to be considered a significant reason that the Spurs lost that close game.

But a role player isnt supposed to be relied upon to.do that in the first place. You say he was just shooting threes, that was what they were doing in the games of that series that they were winning. Sure you can fault game 6 and 7 to the sudden slump of shooting by Danny, but I can also blame a lot of plays/people/lucky situations why Green doesnt have a fmvp right now.

Also, Green's offense can come from anywhere beyond the arc, giving the team much needed space while bruce was strictly shooting it from the corners.

cjw

07-22-2015, 08:57 PM

Bruce Bowen couldn't shoot freebies.

Had Green been at the line, 6 might never have happened (though his brainfart leaking out on the break instead of staying with his man led to one of those treys in 6).

ElNono

07-22-2015, 08:59 PM

Most dominant stretch in spurs history because he had fucking prime duncan. :lmao

We'd have 2 rings already if manu didn't screw it up and maybe 3 if pop wasn't a bitch this year and maybe 4 if the refs don't fuck us in 2012. All without prime duncan. I'd say this stretch is just as good. The 2014 spurs could probably mop the floor with any of those other teams. just saying.

Well, it's easy to get into the "what if" game... it just didn't happen. Until it's surpassed, that stretch with 3 championships in 6 years was far and away the franchise pinnacle. I think the team is well positioned to perhaps match that or even surpass it, but we'll cross that bridge once we get there.

Kool Bob Love

07-22-2015, 09:32 PM

100%duncan

07-22-2015, 09:34 PM

Check the poll 3rd world. Bowen>Green.

Meow

Frank Dux

07-23-2015, 12:23 AM

But a role player isnt supposed to be relied upon to.do that in the first place. You say he was just shooting threes, that was what they were doing in the games of that series that they were winning. Sure you can fault game 6 and 7 to the sudden slump of shooting by Danny, but I can also blame a lot of plays/people/lucky situations why Green doesnt have a fmvp right now.

Also, Green's offense can come from anywhere beyond the arc, giving the team much needed space while bruce was strictly shooting it from the corners.

A role player isn't relied upon to do his role? Hmm. Okay. He went 2-19 in the last two, critical games. He was outstanding in the games we won, but his disappearing act in Games 6 and 7 was a significant contributor to the Spurs losing the series. if he wouldn't have played like ghost for two consecutive games, you might have a point about him being a fmvp. But he disappeared. That's what happened.

100%duncan

07-23-2015, 12:57 AM

A role player isn't relied upon to do his role? Hmm. Okay. He went 2-19 in the last two, critical games. He was outstanding in the games we won, but his disappearing act in Games 6 and 7 was a significant contributor to the Spurs losing the series. if he wouldn't have played like ghost for two consecutive games, you might have a point about him being a fmvp. But he disappeared. That's what happened.

You talk like he was the main reason the spurs lost he was not. And what role are you talking about? You shouldnt rely on a 3&D guy to win you the championship. The big boys should have stepped up and done it.

Chinook

07-23-2015, 01:00 AM

You talk like he was the main reason the spurs lost he was not. And what role are you talking about? You shouldnt rely on a 3&D guy to win you the championship. The big boys should have stepped up and done it.

They let Danny down so hard core in Game Two. Fact of the matter is that Green dominated the Finals on both ends for five games. Bowen couldn't come close to that. Leonard is considered a minor deity around here, and he only had three such games.

HarlemHeat37

07-23-2015, 01:32 AM

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I bet there's a much stronger correlation between Green's scoring output vs. the Spurs' W/L record in comparison to Bowen's offensive output impacting the outcome of the game, tbh..

The current Spurs are heavily reliant on scoring from all their key players, including Green..Bowen's scoring had virtually no impact on the results of the old Spurs, they were conventionally built from a perspective of roles with a traditional #1 superstar(Duncan), #2 star (Manu) and #3 All-Star (Parker)

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 07:27 AM

Which is irrelevant. The guy insisted Bowen would shut down Paul. Facts tell us otherwise. Nice job dodging the real issue here though(Bowen's ability to defend point guards as effectively as Green).

A 38 YO Bowen couldn't stop Paul. Wow, shocking. Bruce in his prime could almost stop anyone. You guys really need to stop talking about Bruce's last couple of years in the league when comparing him to Green.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 07:36 AM

They let Danny down so hard core in Game Two. Fact of the matter is that Green dominated the Finals on both ends for five games. Bowen couldn't come close to that. Leonard is considered a minor deity around here, and he only had three such games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305070SAS.html

People forget how huge Bowen came up in the '03 Lakers series. No it wasn't Green's offensive level in the '13 Finals, but he hit like 18 3's for that series and he led the Spurs in +/- in that series. And he held Kobe to a -22 for the series, 43% shooting and 27 TOVs.

That was one of the greatest series by Bowen ever. W/O him, the Spurs don't beat the Lakers that year.

Chinook

07-23-2015, 07:52 AM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305070SAS.html

People forget how huge Bowen came up in the '03 Lakers series. No it wasn't Green's offensive level in the '13 Finals, but he hit like 18 3's for that series and he led the Spurs in +/- in that series. And he held Kobe to a -22 for the series, 43% shooting and 27 TOVs.

That was one of the greatest series by Bowen ever. W/O him, the Spurs don't beat the Lakers that year.

Lakers were -35 in that series. Kobe played 90 percent of the minutes in that series. His expected plus-minus would be about -31. Not saying Bowen didn't check Kobe very well. But the numbers indicate that the Spurs just destroyed the Lakers in that series and that Kobe bore witness to it.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 08:01 AM

Lakers were -35 in that series. Kobe played 90 percent of the minutes in that series. His expected plus-minus would be about -31. Not saying Bowen didn't check Kobe very well. But the numbers indicate that the Spurs just destroyed the Lakers in that series and that Kobe bore witness to it.

That -35 was because of Game 6 blowout. And the Lakers pulled everyone after their run failed and were down by 18 in the 4th quarter. But Duncan/Bowen are the reasons the Spurs won that series. I watched every game. Kobe had only one very good game (Game 5). Even then, Bowen still was +11. Kobe played all 48 minutes and scored about 16 pts in the 7 minutes Bowen wasn't on the court and w/ Manu and SJAX checking him. W/O Bowen in game 5, the Spurs would have lost that game and ultimately the series.

There is a reason why Pop heaps so much praise on Bowen. If you ever watched him in his prime, you will understand why.

Chinook

07-23-2015, 08:13 AM

That -35 was because of Game 6 blowout. And the Lakers pulled everyone after their run failed and were down by 18 in the 4th quarter. But Duncan/Bowen are the reasons the Spurs won that series. I watched every game. Kobe had only one very good game (Game 5). Even then, Bowen still was +11. Kobe played all 48 minutes and scored about 16 pts in the 7 minutes Bowen wasn't on the court and w/ Manu and SJAX checking him. W/O Bowen in game 5, the Spurs would have lost that game and ultimately the series.

There is a reason why Pop heaps so much praise on Bowen. If you ever watched him in his prime, you will understand why.

Kobe played 43 minutes in that game. He left with the Lakers down 25. Without that game, Kobe is a -2, and the Lakers were a -7.

Again, though, not saying Bowen wasn't great on Kobe at all. Just saying that plus-minus isn't the best way of showing that.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 08:27 AM

Kobe played 43 minutes in that game. He left with the Lakers down 25. Without that game, Kobe is a -2, and the Lakers were a -7.

Again, though, not saying Bowen wasn't great on Kobe at all. Just saying that plus-minus isn't the best way of showing that.

And the reason for that is Because like I mentioned before, every time Bowen went out, Kobe would go on a scoring binge. Kobe was +46 in the first 5 games when Bowen WASN'T on the court. Manu and SJax got owned by Kobe that series. If not for Bowen, there is no way in hell the Spurs won that series.

Chinook

07-23-2015, 08:35 AM

And the reason for that is Because like I mentioned before, every time Bowen went out, Kobe would go on a scoring binge. Kobe was +46 in the first 5 games when Bowen WASN'T on the court. Manu and SJax got owned by Kobe that series. If not for Bowen, there is no way in hell the Spurs won that series.

Again, not really disagreeing with the idea that Bowen checked Kobe. I'm not one of those people who think Bowen wasn't critical to certain series for the Spurs. I disagree with using Bowen's relative impact as the main justification for giving him the absolute edge.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 08:54 AM

Again, not really disagreeing with the idea that Bowen checked Kobe. I'm not one of those people who think Bowen wasn't critical to certain series for the Spurs. I disagree with using Bowen's relative impact as the main justification for giving him the absolute edge.

Yes, again in '05, Bowen put the clamps on Anthony, Marion, Allen and Rip (held him to 38% shooting, 14 TO which as a Piston high, and he shoot 16% from 3 pt). Every single person Bruce guarded led their teams in TO committed, except Marion. Marion, a 20 ppg player, only avg 8 ppg with Bruce guarding him (really, tell me one player Green owned like that in the playoffs). Ray Allen only shot 30% 3P, 12-40.

I don't know if you actually watched these series, but if you did, you would not make the comment that Bruce never impacted a series. He did and in a huge way. He would frustrate his opponent to take bad shots and make stupid TOs. There isn't one series yet, that Green ever matched Bowen's performance defensively (when Bowen was in his prime).

Chinook

07-23-2015, 09:23 AM

Yes, again in '05, Bowen put the clamps on Anthony, Marion, Allen and Rip (held him to 38% shooting, 14 TO which as a Piston high, and he shoot 16% from 3 pt). Every single person Bruce guarded led their teams in TO committed, except Marion. Marion, a 20 ppg player, only avg 8 ppg with Bruce guarding him (really, tell me one player Green owned like that in the playoffs). Ray Allen only shot 30% 3P, 12-40.

I don't know if you actually watched these series, but if you did, you would not make the comment that Bruce never impacted a series. He did and in a huge way. He would frustrate his opponent to take bad shots and make stupid TOs. There isn't one series yet, that Green ever matched Bowen's performance defensively (when Bowen was in his prime).

Curry shot like 10 percent against Green in 2013.