Jimmer V Ray

[tholdren]

Who would you rather have and why?

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Rk
Player
From
To
G
MP
PER
TS%
3PAr
FTr
ORB%
DRB%
TRB%
AST%
STL%
BLK%
TOV%
USG%

OWS
DWS
WS
WS/48

OBPM
DBPM
BPM
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1
Jimmer Fredette (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fredeji01.html)
2012
2015
229
3130
12.6
.524
.404
.171
1.8
6.8
4.2
16.8
1.5
0.3
13.9
22.0

2.2
0.2
2.4
.037

-0.2
-3.8
-4.0
-1.6


2
Ray McCallum (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mccalra01.html)
2014
2015
113
2333
11.4
.474
.221
.165
3.5
9.0
6.3
21.2
1.5
0.7
13.1
17.9

0.8
0.9
1.7
.036

-1.1
-1.5
-2.6
-0.4

[Aztecfan03]

As a PG, McCallum. As a SG, Jimmer.

[tholdren]

why?

[TheGoldStandard]

Any of those above Williams

[mudyez]

Voted for Ray but like them as a (3rd string) tandem together.

[cjw]

I thought this was going to be another Ray Allen thread

[AFBlue]

Voted Jimmer...not sold in Ray tbqh.

[Darkwaters]

Ray has proven he belongs in the NBA (even if it's only as a 3rd PG). Jimmer hasn't even proven that yet. Easy choice.

[KDKSpurs24]

Voted Jimmer...not sold in Ray tbqh.
You serious..?

[AFBlue]

You serious..?

Yes. Both are quite bad as defenders, but I think Jimmer has the better offensive skill set to thrive in this system. He moves well without the ball and should benefit significantly from the spacing created by the other players on the floor..Maybe I'm overrating the amount of space and open looks that Jimmer will benefit from in this system, but you don't forget how to shoot and score the way Jimmer did in college. Also working against Ray is the fact that he'll need the ball in his hands to be effective. With three lead guards in front of him on the depth chart, I'm not sure how much time he'll get to prove himself tbqh.

I could absolutely be wrong, but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest Jimmer will be better.

[ceperez]

Voted Jimmer...not sold in Ray tbqh.

Not sold on this performance???? Are you freak'n blind?! Like comparing a Westbrook highlight reel to a Steve Kerr highlight reel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

[SAGirl]

Not sold on this performance???? Are you freak'n blind?! Like comparing a Westbrook highlight reel to a Steve Kerr highlight reel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

That performance reminds me a bit of CoJo with better passing and decision making. Granted, its the Lakers, but we saw him get shots for himself and teammates. I haven't seen Jimmer play recently but he didn't get much opportunities last year. I voted McCallum bc he was playing well toward the end of last season and seemed to be finding his game.

[KDKSpurs24]

Yes. Both are quite bad as defenders, but I think Jimmer has the better offensive skill set to thrive in this system. He moves well without the ball and should benefit significantly from the spacing created by the other players on the floor..Maybe I'm overrating the amount of space and open looks that Jimmer will benefit from in this system, but you don't forget how to shoot and score the way Jimmer did in college. Also working against Ray is the fact that he'll need the ball in his hands to be effective. With three lead guards in front of him on the depth chart, I'm not sure how much time he'll get to prove himself tbqh.

I could absolutely be wrong, but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest Jimmer will be better.
Just because you say he needs the ball in his hands to effective doesn't mean he isn't the better player. I thought this was about who was the better player(not just the better fit for us). Even then, I still think Ray has him beat for that as well imo. We'll just have to see.

[random21]

The poll should be (Reggie Williams or Jimmer)??? Cuz that's what it will come down too @ training camp....

[Spur|n|Austin]

As a PG, McCallum. As a SG, Jimmer.

/thread

[Spurtacular]

I watched Jimmer and Ray on the Kings. Jimmer was much better. But he was never gonna fit in with his racist teammates who chose to freeze him out. And that's why when Ray came in, it was relatively easy for him to surpass Jimmer on the depth chart. But at no time did Ray show the flashes of brilliance that Jimmer showed.

#truthbomb

[Spurtacular]

Not sold on this performance???? Are you freak'n blind?! Like comparing a Westbrook highlight reel to a Steve Kerr highlight reel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

If I called this hyperbole, I'd probably be giving you too much credit.

A. McCallum is not fast by PG standards; and I wouldn't even say he's faster with the ball than Jimmer.
B. Jimmer is much more of a playmaker than Kerr ever was. Kerr was simply a spot up shooter. Jimmer was in the 94th percentile in pick n' roll efficiency.

[AFBlue]

Not sold on this performance???? Are you freak'n blind?! Like comparing a Westbrook highlight reel to a Steve Kerr highlight reel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

Using highlight reels to justify your position honestly doesn't help your case. If you look at the comparison of their careers, both have been below average professionals. Statistically, Jimmer has been slightly better.

[AFBlue]

Just because you say he needs the ball in his hands to effective doesn't mean he isn't the better player. I thought this was about who was the better player(not just the better fit for us). Even then, I still think Ray has him beat for that as well imo. We'll just have to see.

Even if Ray is more talented, which is up for debate, I think the spirit of the debate is who will be better on the Spurs. Both will be role players on the team. I just think he has a better chance at succeeding in his role than Ray.

[Nathan89]

Not sold on this performance???? Are you freak'n blind?! Like comparing a Westbrook highlight reel to a Steve Kerr highlight reel.


There wasn't anything in that video that should lead one to mention Westbrook.

[tholdren]

There wasn't anything in that video that should lead one to mention Westbrook.
yeah, who wants a multi-year champion over a great athlete who hasn't won or ever will win a ring.

[steeledl]

There wasn't anything in that video that should lead one to mention Westbrook.

Nathan if you had to compare his game to an NBA player , past or current, who would you compare it to? I only ask you personally because I feel you are one of the most knowledgable Spurs fans on this site .

Eagerly await your response,

steeledl

[tholdren]

There wasn't anything in that video that should lead one to mention Westbrook.
Bernie sanders video is repulsive

[Nathan89]

Nathan if you had to compare his game to an NBA player , past or current, who would you compare it to? I only ask you personally because I feel you are one of the most knowledgable Spurs fans on this site .

Eagerly await your response,

steeledl

Darren Collison but his shot isn't as good as his.

[steeledl]

Darren Collison but his shot isn't as good as his.

Do you think it could be in the future ?

[Nathan89]

Do you think it could be in the future ?

Doubt it.

[spurslegacy]

i think raymac will play waaaaaaay more than jimmer...

[spurslegacy]

Bernie sanders video is repulsive

repulsive that we have the highest per capita prison population? and the highest total prison population in the world? yeah i agree...

[spurslegacy]

Bernie sanders video is repulsive

Honestly i don't understand how any semi-intelligent Spurs fan could NOT be progressively politically oriented. The entire Spurs organization's and team's framework is implicitly based on socialist principles - the team is greater than twelve selfish individuals, the sharing of the ball and minutes on the floor, the sharing of the fruits/honors/championships as a team, the sharing of wealth with the community and "outsiders" like Lamarcus. Did anyone even listen to Pop's interview on KNBR?

[AFBlue]

Honestly i don't understand how any semi-intelligent Spurs fan could NOT be progressively politically oriented. The entire Spurs organization's and team's framework is implicitly based on socialist principles - the team is greater than twelve selfish individuals, the sharing of the ball and minutes on the floor, the sharing of the fruits/honors/championships as a team, the sharing of wealth with the community and "outsiders" like Lamarcus. Did anyone even listen to Pop's interview on KNBR?

:lol correlating a team sport philosophy and a sociopolitical framework

Please keep your comments in the Political Forum. They're not wanted upstairs tbqh.

[tatteredprince]

the better term would be SOCIOCENTRIC Spurs...

but anyway..........

[spurslegacy]

:lol correlating a team sport philosophy and a sociopolitical framework

Please keep your comments in the Political Forum. They're not wanted upstairs tbqh.

I don't see the "Political Forum" section here on SpursTalk - could you link it to me? hah. Just seems so obvious to me. caring=sharing=>success. You look at Lebron - what an amazing basketball player and a great capitalist/businessman (people say it all the time), but compared to Timmy, what a horrible long term teammate. He leaves Cleveland in shambles and in disgusting, egocentric fashion because he wanted to win NOW, and then returns because the Miami Heat got routed by the Spurs. Now when he returns, he demands not only a max contract, but a max contract for one year with players' options, and pushes for the trading of the subsequent Rookie of the Year (and a future All-Star) for a BIG THIRD in KL but also a injury prone defensive sieve. And identical contract demands this year. Not because it's best for the team's financial flexibility or anything, but for his own personal financial advantage... I don't understand how you can NOT see sociopolitical comparisons here with the Spurs. They each sacrifice individually (well maybe not Porker) for the group. Those are collectivist, socialist principles...

[boutons_deux]

"Honestly i don't understand how any semi-intelligent Spurs fan could NOT be progressively politically oriented."

we got some Hitler fellators, white supremacists, racists in here. :lol

[spurslegacy]

"Honestly i don't understand how any semi-intelligent Spurs fan could NOT be progressively politically oriented."

we got some Hitler fellators, white supremacists, racists in here. :lol




yeah i know i cringe every time i see the guy with the confederate flag post here.

[spurslegacy]

“It’s a societal sort of thing. In America we’re great at sticking our heads in the sand and being behind the rest of the world in a whole lot of areas. We think we’re this big democratic, fair place. But you look at the world, whether our gender lines or racially or religiously, there’s all kinds of things going on that’s not the way it’s supposed to be...

...But I think since 2000, change has been pretty damn lacking in a lot of ways. I think people are fed up with it, injustice and people not respecting other people’s space and who they are. I think it’s a step in the right direction.” - Popovich

Certainly sounds like a lousy bleeding heart liberal to me :)

[littlecoyotecoin]

I watched Jimmer and Ray on the Kings. Jimmer was much better. But he was never gonna fit in with his racist teammates who chose to freeze him out. And that's why when Ray came in, it was relatively easy for him to surpass Jimmer on the depth chart. But at no time did Ray show the flashes of brilliance that Jimmer showed.

#truthbomb

you mean when Ray was a rookie, and Jimmer was a, what, fourth year player? And, Ray passed him up on the depth chart cuz racist...sounds like reachin'

[tholdren]

you mean when Ray was a rookie, and Jimmer was a, what, fourth year player? And, Ray passed him up on the depth chart cuz racist...sounds like reachin'

I don't think it sounds like "reaching" Jimmer was statistically better each year he played for that trash franchise. I've come to notice that many of a certain type of player fall under the White Men Can't Jump ?Theory that they would rather look good and lose than look bad and win. Sounds pretty accurate to me

[Spurtacular]

you mean when Ray was a rookie, and Jimmer was a, what, fourth year player? And, Ray passed him up on the depth chart cuz racist...sounds like reachin'

3rd year*

And I followed the Kings during that whole time. I don't care if you believe me; but I'm telling you my legitimate take. You can go back to comments on games from that era and find that my take is far from uncommon. And yes, Ray literally passed over him on the depth chart based on one ho hum performance because of the mind set / actions of Jimmer's teammates. Again, that's my take; and take it for what it's worth. Maybe, do some research before you call it reachin' though.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I don't think it sounds like "reaching" Jimmer was statistically better each year he played for that trash franchise. I've come to notice that many of a certain type of player fall under the White Men Can't Jump ?Theory that they would rather look good and lose than look bad and win. Sounds pretty accurate to me

I'm a Bonner apologist, so I don't think that applies to me. Also, plenty will argue that Jimmer didn't play better. Someone was just laughing at his asst/to ratio in another thread bragging about Jimmers ball handling and distributing abilities...I piled on in the laughter. Apparently his coaches in Sac weren't laughing about it? 1.48 first two years in Sac, vs 2.5 for McCallum, so not every aspect of his game was so awesome.

[tholdren]

I'm a Bonner apologist, so I don't think that applies to me. Also, plenty will argue that Jimmer didn't play better. Someone was just laughing at his asst/to ratio in another thread bragging about Jimmers ball handling and distributing abilities...I piled on in the laughter. Apparently his coaches in Sac weren't laughing about it? 1.48 first two years in Sac, vs 2.5 for McCallum, so not every aspect of his game was so awesome.

lol those aren't even "real" assists. Those are trash transition assists, I would bet. Sac plays no d and just tries to run. Easiest place in the league to play for a PG to score assists. McCallum associates as a PG yet can only get 2? I got 9 a game in high school all off PNR, so not impressive to me. Jimmer is a shooter, I don't explain him as a PG. But if SA can use him to slow the pace and control the offense, then get him to the opposite wing or corner, at 40% for a 3, then jesus, you got a steal.

McCallum won't do this. He'll run a fast break and take ill advised shots, but he will get you the EXTRA momentum points that Jimmer may not be able to get.

I would take Jimmer. You can have him turn it up or down. McCallum has to play out of control to be effective. Could be good for SA who has limited playmakers, but.....

[sooooooo]

lol those aren't even "real" assists. Those are trash transition assists, I would bet. Sac plays no d and just tries to run. Easiest place in the league to play for a PG to score assists. McCallum associates as a PG yet can only get 2? I got 9 a game in high school all off PNR, so not impressive to me. Jimmer is a shooter, I don't explain him as a PG. But if SA can use him to slow the pace and control the offense, then get him to the opposite wing or corner, at 40% for a 3, then jesus, you got a steal.

McCallum won't do this. He'll run a fast break and take ill advised shots, but he will get you the EXTRA momentum points that Jimmer may not be able to get.

I would take Jimmer. You can have him turn it up or down. McCallum has to play out of control to be effective. Could be good for SA who has limited playmakers, but.....

Do you honestly think Ray will play the exact same way he did in Sacramento? I doubt anyone in SA will let that happen.

[tholdren]

Do you honestly think Ray will play the exact same way he did in Sacramento? I doubt anyone in SA will let that happen.
no, but I think Jimmer played like he will in SA, and had success, Ray, played like a thug.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Um, it was 2.5. And, you may not be selling his point guard and play-making skills, but some are. The number is what it is. You can argue it was easier to get assists there, I could argue it was more difficult as their team was horrible, like in summer league. You can make a good pass to a guy that can't finish when you're on a bad team. No assist.

But, you are right. He's more apt a two guard. I really don't understand the guy's argument that he's a better point guard than McCallum, but whatever. A better two? Sure. But, weve got Patty, Green, Manu, and Simmons. Not exactly hurting at two guard. If he was a 2/3 maybe. Can Jimmer slide over to small forward? Fill some Kawhi backup minutes? Maybe rim protection?

Regarding your glory days: I am sure you were awesome. Much better than McCallum, as he could manage only 2.5 assists for his NBA team in his first two years, whereas you got 9 assists per game in high school. It's a crying shame you're not available, as we've got a roster spot open, but someone's got to make those pizzas.

[Vito Corleone]

The real key is who can find a role with the team. Parker is the leader, but he is probably only going to play about 60 games. We all know that. Paddy is the primary backup, again we all know that but he is injury prone, just like parker. We are going to rely on McCallum and Jimmer to be the primary backup in several games. Now, who is better, I'm pretty sure it depends upon what the team needs. I'll take McCallum on defense over Jimmer every day of the week. I've never seen Jimmer play much defense. However, on the offensive end Jimmer brings much more to the table as both a shooter and running a offense.

When I see Jimmer I see Steve Kerr when he first joined the Bulls. I might be wrong, but I'm hoping that is the type of role he plays here in San Antonio.

When I see McCallum I see a guy that reminds me of Antonio Daniels, he has the tools but he really isn't a pure PG.

Personally I think we need both.

Williams is really going to have to show me something to convince me he can help this team more than Jimmer can.

[Sean Cagney]

i think raymac will play waaaaaaay more than jimmer...

Likely, don't even know if Jimmer makes the team personally and is not worth even talking about IMO. I could be wrong though but I don't see him amounting to anything. I picked Ray too.

[peacemaker885]

Ray has gotten over himself. PATFO thinks so.

[bic50]

lol those aren't even "real" assists. Those are trash transition assists, I would bet. Sac plays no d and just tries to run. Easiest place in the league to play for a PG to score assists. McCallum associates as a PG yet can only get 2? I got 9 a game in high school all off PNR, so not impressive to me. Jimmer is a shooter, I don't explain him as a PG. But if SA can use him to slow the pace and control the offense, then get him to the opposite wing or corner, at 40% for a 3, then jesus, you got a steal.

McCallum won't do this. He'll run a fast break and take ill advised shots, but he will get you the EXTRA momentum points that Jimmer may not be able to get.


I would take Jimmer. You can have him turn it up or down. McCallum has to play out of control to be effective. Could be good for SA who has limited playmakers, but.....
Sign and trade or waive kawhi. And Play Jimmer! Right?