Forget intangibles. Pure skillsdet/talent/bball ability - Tim or David?

[dweaver99027]

TD is a winner. He's done it 5 times. He led that 2003 team of dubious talent to a title. David didn't / couldn't . Forget all that. Who's the better basketball player, in the purest sense?

[BatManu20]

Tim.

/thread

[daledondale]

http://i.imgur.com/lEQ5PBt.gif

[Sean Cagney]

5-0 now down 5-1... TD my vote.

[apalisoc_9]

from a talent standpoint, David and Hakeem are the two most talented bigs I've ever seen both offensively and defensively...

[dweaver99027]

from a talent standpoint, David and Hakeem are the two most talented bigs I've ever seen both offensively and defensively... If physical attributes/ measurements/ athleticism go under 'talent', then i agree. Maybe Wilt is up there due to basically being a freak of nature.

[ginobilized]

Skill set- 21
Talent- 50
Bball ability-even

tough call, but, I am going with Duncan

[tmtcsc]

Its not a tough call for me. Its 21 and not really close. I give David props for being the better defender, dunker and athlete but that's it. Tim has had better footwork, basketball smarts and commitment to improve. Tim knows the game better and has made his teammates better too.

To his credit, David was a stud who had to shoulder the majority of responsibility on both offense and defense. His challenges night in and night out were much bigger than Tim's. He also went through 5 coaches during his career: Brown, Tark, Lucas, Hill and Pop. In addition, he didn't have the best F.O. and the ownership was shitty for the majority of his career.

If David had better teammates around him, he would have had more rings. He turned out to be a much better complimentary player.

[still.focused]

TD gets the edge in skill
DRob not quite the skill of TD but he was a far better athlete

[Blue Duck]

David doesn't get nearly enough credit for the player that he was, he was remarkable, and he competed in what I believe to have been the golden age of centers. He held his own and his offensive skill set is completely underrated. If big Dave played today, the rest of the league's centers would not have a prayer of stopping him. That said, still thankful we got TD but I'll always remember the Robinson years fondly, too.

[littlecoyotecoin]

It is a testament to how much we all love DR that we are all trying to pretend as if this poll isn't a flat out insult to TD. Yeah. DR was a better athlete by far, and any aspect of basketball that his athleticism coincided with basketball, he was better. At every other aspect in which pure athleticism didn't rule, Tim was better. If you have them both in their prime, two feet from the basket, with a prime defender on them, who do you want with the ball with the championship game on the line with the last shot. Tim or David? Tim. 10/10. David would brick it off the glass with no touch but at least way too much force, or fumble it while getting awkwardly fouled toward the basket and looking for a call he should have gotten but didn't. Tim would have made it happen in several ways, and did.

[2centsworth]

David was a triple double machine and even had a quadruple double. The Spurs have the record for greatest improvement in one year when David came aboard. David was a beast.

Tim beats David in Basketball IQ and footwork. However, David's athleticism was dominating.

In their primes, give me David.

Best Year:
David avg 30/11rbs/5ast/2stl/3.3blks
Tim avg 25.5/13rbs/4ast/1stl/ 2.5blks

The ring argument makes Bill Russell the greatest ever. It makes Dwayne Wade better than Lebron.

[Silver&Black Warrior]

David was a triple double machine and even had a quadruple double. The Spurs have the record for greatest improvement in one year when David came aboard. David was a beast.

Tim beats David in Basketball IQ and footwork. However, David's athleticism was dominating.

In their primes, give me David.

Best Year:
David avg 30/11rbs/5ast/2stl/3.3blks
Tim avg 25.5/13rbs/4ast/1stl/ 2.5blks

The ring argument makes Bill Russell the greatest ever. It makes Dwayne Wade better than Lebron.

HE'S A PREACHIN' LIKE A PREACHER MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spursistan]

Tim.

/thread

[BD24]

from a talent standpoint, David and Hakeem are the two most talented bigs I've ever seen both offensively and defensively...
Wait how old are you? lol. Aren't you only like 23? You didn't really see either of them play wtf are you talking about :lol

[Kikoluna]

Tough...I go with tim..52-48% close

[Kikoluna]

Then again, Robinson played in a tougher era...malone, jordan, the dream, ewing, mutombo....

[mbass]

Wait how old are you? lol. Aren't you only like 23? You didn't really see either of them play wtf are you talking about :lol

I saw both of them play, in person, several times - this poster is right. I've never seen anything like Robinson or Hakeem

[BD24]

I saw both of them play, in person, several times - this poster is right. I've never seen anything like Robinson or Hakeem
Maybe so, but the point was he is just trying to sound like some basketball guru. The faggot never saw either of them play, unless he was doing some deep basketball analysis at 5 years old :lol

[dweaver99027]

By that reasoning i can't offer an opinion on the skills of Magic or Bird because I was too young to watch their primes live... Nevermind the fact that there are full taped games of them in the dozens.

[TrainOfThought5]

DR is criminally underrated by the TD era fans.

[BD24]

By that reasoning i can't offer an opinion on the skills of Magic or Bird because I was too young to watch their primes live... Nevermind the fact that there are full taped games of them in the dozens.
Not the same thing and you know it.

[dweaver99027]

So a 25 year old can't possibly have watched 20-30 of taped/uploaded David or Hakeem games? The Internet would explode?

[baseline bum]

This is pretty easily Duncan. Robinson never had Duncan's ability to score in the post, he was never the passer out of the post Duncan is either. Robinson had a better face up game due to him being a lot quicker and his jumper was far superior, but if I'm down one with 10 seconds left I'm giving the ball to Duncan since I can trust him a lot more to either score or make the right pass from the low post.

[BD24]

So a 25 year old can't possibly have watched 20-30 of taped/uploaded David or Hakeem games? The Internet would explode?
20-30 games is a very small sample size to judge a whole career on you ignorant fuck.

[BD24]

This is pretty easily Duncan. Robinson never had Duncan's ability to score in the post, he was never the passer out of the post Duncan is either. Robinson had a better face up game due to him being a lot quicker and his jumper was far superior, but if I'm down one with 10 seconds left I'm giving the ball to Duncan since I can trust him a lot more to either score or make the right pass from the low post.
This, Robinson was the superior athlete no doubt, but Duncan was/is the superior basketball player.

[dweaver99027]

20-30 games is a very small sample size to judge a whole career on you ignorant fuck. Yes, because the original question was about who had the better carreer, lol.

[BD24]

Yes, because the original question was about who had the better carreer, lol.
Better basketball player, still takes more than 20-30 games to judge. So just stop.

[dweaver99027]

Yes, 20-30 games are way too few to determine skill level, touch, footwrk, anticipation , touch, etc... Right? Don't apply for a scouting gig anytime soon.

[BD24]

Yes, 20-30 games are way too few to determine skill level, touch, footwork, anticipation , touch, etc... Right? Don't apply for a scouting gig anytime soon.
Yes, they absolutely are to few games. Hence why there are so many bust. Now kindly fuck off.

[Gladney to see you]

Robinson would miss a lot of shots inside but would make up for it with his physical ability. I say duncan, but Robinson helped Duncan thrive more than vice versa though.

[dweaver99027]

Busts? Players are scouted in actual NBA games against top competition and then drafted? Good to know. Anyway, you are right, we need to watch entire seasons' worth of live basketball games before we gain the right to evaluate a player's ability to make plays compared to another's. Case closed, moving on.

[T_L_P]

I never really get the 'talent/skill' debates, so I'm just going to answer which was was better: Tim Duncan.

Give D-Rob his Regular Seasons. Duncan stepped up when it mattered, and he wasn't going from 30/10 seasons to being contained by Felton Spencer and Tom Chambers.

[dweaver99027]

I'd define it as ability to make basketball plays against average competition in a game of average importance.

[2centsworth]

A little taste of David:

https://www.facebook.com/spursuncensored/videos/1672674209618732/

[BD24]

I never really get the 'talent/skill' debates, so I'm just going to answer which was was better: Tim Duncan.

Give D-Rob his Regular Seasons. Duncan stepped up when it mattered, and he wasn't going from 30/10 seasons to being contained by Felton Spencer and Tom Chambers.

[TDomination]

Define skillset/talent/bball ability?

for me:

Skillset = footwork, outside/inside game, shooting ability, rebounding, defense,
TIM DUNCAN

talent = general ability to play basketball
TIM DUNCAN

bball ability = skillset/talent
TIM DUNCAN

the only thing that Robinson beats Duncan is Athleticism. Robinson was a beast. He would block 3 shots in the same possession without skipping a beat. He could outrun the entire team on a fast break during his prime. He was fun to watch. But he seemed to need some help in crunch time. And that help finally came with Duncan.

But I feel truly blessed to have these two great role models, hall of fame players on my favorite team. Truly amazing

[littlecoyotecoin]

David was a triple double machine and even had a quadruple double. The Spurs have the record for greatest improvement in one year when David came aboard. David was a beast.

Tim beats David in Basketball IQ and footwork. However, David's athleticism was dominating.

In their primes, give me David.

Best Year:
David avg 30/11rbs/5ast/2stl/3.3blks
Tim avg 25.5/13rbs/4ast/1stl/ 2.5blks

The ring argument makes Bill Russell the greatest ever. It makes Dwayne Wade better than Lebron.

But, the point argument is more valid?!

[littlecoyotecoin]

DR is criminally underrated by the TD era fans.

I watched David live. He was frustrating to watch as often as he was scintillating.

[2centsworth]

But, the point argument is more valid?!
I gave u 5 stats

[2centsworth]

for me:

Skillset = footwork, outside/inside game, shooting ability, rebounding, defense,
TIM DUNCAN
footwork, yes. David was a better shooter and defender. David is a Bill Russell type defender, maybe greatest ever.



talent = general ability to play basketball
TIM DUNCAN
Higher BB IQ, agree.



bball ability = skillset/talent
TIM DUNCAN

drob had more natural talent and it's not even close. Tim makes-up with fundamentals.



the only thing that Robinson beats Duncan is Athleticism. Robinson was a beast. He would block 3 shots in the same possession without skipping a beat. He could outrun the entire team on a fast break during his prime. He was fun to watch. But he seemed to need some help in crunch time. And that help finally came with Duncan.

But I feel truly blessed to have these two great role models, hall of fame players on my favorite team. Truly amazing Tim could go 10-27 in a game seven because of Tony &Manu. Drob had to rely on AJ and Vinney Del Negro

[baseline bum]

Tim could go 10-27 in a game seven because of Tony &Manu. Drob had to rely on AJ and Vinney Del Negro

Duncan had to carry Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, and Mark Bryant as starters in the playoffs too.

[Old School 44]

Tim is the better basketball player. I'd even say Ice was a better basketball player. I love David, but imo he was a tremendous athlete that played basketball.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I gave u 5 stats

Not sure if 6 would have changed anything.

Fast Breakin' Fiesta!

[kobyz]

David was somewhat mechanical in his game and lacks spontaneousness aspect, those hinder his talent when it matter, Tim feel for the game, pure skills and iq, ability to play PF, gracefull inside outside game give him more bball ability...

[baseline bum]

Tim is the better basketball player. I'd even say Ice was a better basketball player. I love David, but imo he was a tremendous athlete that played basketball.

I love Ice, but no way he's better than David. Better scorer? For sure. But he's not better in any other aspect of the game.

[Join'orDie]

D-Rob, MJ, Shaq, Lebron, are the most talented players I've ever seen. These four had dominating physical gifts (that they sometimes relied too heavily on) combined with the skill to use those gifts. Tim is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen and a top 5 competitor as well; along with MJ, Bird, Kobe, Gino. To put it another way Tim is considered one of the best bigs to ever run the floor because Tim runs the floor hard every play not because he's particularly fast. D-Rob was one of the greatest big runners because he was the fastest guy on the court.

Robinson was hurt by the era he played. Dude was a finesse big in the time of smash-mouth. What Detroit did to Tim in '05 David had game in and game out. Admiral was at the top of the FTs attempted list year after year not because he flopped or tried to draw contact, but because teams would hammer him as this was the only viable defensive strategy. And because it was the 90s he probably didn't get to the line as much as he should have, flagrants weren't called enough, and every team had four or five goons to throw at him.

The other thing that hurts D-Rob is the talent and organization around him. In his first season, the Strickland pass year, Spurs only made like 50 threes and shot less than 25% on 3-point attempts. And yet the Spurs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league at the time largely thanks to Robinson. The 3-point situation never got a whole lot better, contrasted with Dream who was surrounded by great shooters, D-Rob never had a chance. Strickland, the best pg David played with, fueded publicly with the teams dumbass owner and left in free agency for nothing. Terry Cummings the best 4-man to play with David (before Tim) blew out his ACL in a pickup game in '92. Elliott was traded for Denis the Menace. The head coaches chair looked more like a revolving door with like 6 coaches in 8 years. And ownership was more interested in selling the team than actually putting a winning product on the floor.

All of this and the Spurs were still a top regular season team every year because of David. For this reason I think Admiral's leadership is also criminally underrated. Robinson's early years actually mirror Jordan's in a lot of ways; and just like MJ, D-Rob needed a Pippen. Except he never got a Pippen. Instead he got one of the 5 greatest to play the game. And because of age, injuries, and a willingness to put team before individual needs Robinson played Robin to Tim's Batman. But make no mistake, in his prime, the Admiral was one of the most incredible talents to ever touch a basketball.

[couchman]

We are so lucky as Spurs fans to be able to have this conversation. I was there in person for DRob's 1st game ever against the Lakers and rooted my heart out for him his entire career. David Robinson was one of the most elite athletes to ever walk the earth, and he used that ability to be one of the greatest basketball players of all time, and yet he was fairly limited in terms of the offensive basketball skills that matter for a big man. The comparison between TD and DR is close, but for me it is decided by this factor. Robinson did not have a consistent and dependable set of post moves which kept him from being a dependable "go to" option in crunch time. That was during an era of basketball where that skillset was more important than it is now.
By contrast, Tim Duncan is an elite athlete, but not an all time great athelete like Robinson was. What TD immediately brought to San Antonio was a mastery of historically proven "Big Man" skills. Tim ALWAYS held the ball up high and avoided having the ball stripped or fumbling the ball as Robinson often did. TD had an array of post moves, most of which resulted in easy buckets or soft misses off the rim that were prime for put backs. Because of his superior post play Duncan also could generate offense better by passing out of the post. This was the foundation of an offense that allowed lesser role players to thrive. Guys like Antonio Daniels, Derek Anderson, Devin Brown, etc etc and the list goes on.
One final factor is that TD is a brutally fierce competitor while DRob was the ultimate gentleman. I think TDs competitive fire is a significant advantage for him and his teams that helped not only fire him up but also keep his m in line.
My vote goes to Duncan.

[2centsworth]

Duncan had to carry Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, and Mark Bryant as starters in the playoffs too. that team win cuz of the Twin Towers, period!

[2centsworth]

D-Rob, MJ, Shaq, Lebron, are the most talented players I've ever seen. These four had dominating physical gifts (that they sometimes relied too heavily on) combined with the skill to use those gifts. Tim is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen and a top 5 competitor as well; along with MJ, Bird, Kobe, Gino. To put it another way Tim is considered one of the best bigs to ever run the floor because Tim runs the floor hard every play not because he's particularly fast. D-Rob was one of the greatest big runners because he was the fastest guy on the court.

Robinson was hurt by the era he played. Dude was a finesse big in the time of smash-mouth. What Detroit did to Tim in '05 David had game in and game out. Admiral was at the top of the FTs attempted list year after year not because he flopped or tried to draw contact, but because teams would hammer him as this was the only viable defensive strategy. And because it was the 90s he probably didn't get to the line as much as he should have, flagrants weren't called enough, and every team had four or five goons to throw at him.

The other thing that hurts D-Rob is the talent and organization around him. In his first season, the Strickland pass year, Spurs only made like 50 threes and shot less than 25% on 3-point attempts. And yet the Spurs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league at the time largely thanks to Robinson. The 3-point situation never got a whole lot better, contrasted with Dream who was surrounded by great shooters, D-Rob never had a chance. Strickland, the best pg David played with, fueded publicly with the teams dumbass owner and left in free agency for nothing. Terry Cummings the best 4-man to play with David (before Tim) blew out his ACL in a pickup game in '92. Elliott was traded for Denis the Menace. The head coaches chair looked more like a revolving door with like 6 coaches in 8 years. And ownership was more interested in selling the team than actually putting a winning product on the floor.

All of this and the Spurs were still a top regular season team every year because of David. For this reason I think Admiral's leadership is also criminally underrated. Robinson's early years actually mirror Jordan's in a lot of ways; and just like MJ, D-Rob needed a Pippen. Except he never got a Pippen. Instead he got one of the 5 greatest to play the game. And because of age, injuries, and a willingness to put team before individual needs Robinson played Robin to Tim's Batman. But make no mistake, in his prime, the Admiral was one of the most incredible talents to ever touch a basketball.

great post!

[2centsworth]

Fwiw, drob used to kick Tim's ass in 1 on 1.

[Old School 44]

I love Ice, but no way he's better than David. Better scorer? For sure. But he's not better in any other aspect of the game.
I'm sure I didn't express myself correctly. For the record, I'd take David, all day and everyday over Ice. What I meant to say is Ice was more of a natural basketball player.

[RoyerReptiles]

DR is criminally underrated by the TD era fans.

This. Absolutely, positively accurate. I think it's only natural, though. As time passes, you end up with people that either just didn't experience those past events or you have people that have forgotten so much about it. It's unfortunate really, because the NBA of the 80s and 90s was so much fun to watch.

David and Hakeem were absolute freaks of nature physically, but David more so. David was bigger, faster and could jump higher. I'd say he was stronger, too. Physically speaking, prime David easily beats out Tim and it's not even close.

As far as basketball chops, you have to remember something that I think people tend to overlook, especially in this era of high octane offense - putting the ball in the hoop is only half of the game. When looking at the defensive side of the ball, David is far and away the better defender because of his athletic ability. The guy was a defensive MONSTER! He led the league in blocks AND rebounds. That's nothing to scoff at. I've never seen a player with the quickness of David when it came to getting to a shot to block it. His reaction time was second to none. He altered soooooo many shots. If we're talking team defense, I'd put them on even terms, simply because of Tim's basketball smarts, but make no mistake, David was also a super intelligent player.

Offensively, that should definitely go to Tim. Tim's footwork and creativity on the block were on a level like Hakeem and McHale. It's funny, but I never hear anyone mention McHale when talking about Tim's offensive game. I'd say that Tim, Hakeem and Kevin McHale are probably the most fundamentally sound offensive big men the NBA has ever seen. Kareem was great, but he didn't have the repertoire of these three. Anyway, offensively I'd give prime David his first step and his jump shot. He had a smoother jump shot than Duncan and much more arc. Free throws too, obviously. Tim's lack of arc on his shot has been the reason his free throw shooting has had so many rough patches over the years.

Personally, when it comes to their prime years I'd just flip a coin. I'd take either/or. Because of the team situation David had during his prime (and his 2 younger years lost to military service....can't forget that) we'll never really know how good he could have been. Tim has absolutely maximized his potential due to an almost perfect scenario regarding the Spurs organization during his career. We never really got to see the full potential of Big Dave.

[T_L_P]

Fwiw, drob used to kick Tim's ass in 1 on 1.

Monty Williams told Anthony Davis that the Spurs had to black out the windows in the practice facility the first time Tim ever met David on the court because he was destroying him so badly 1-on-1.

Your source for David kicking his ass? Probably David himself, right?

[T_L_P]

Also, one thing for the 'D-Rob had less help crowd': in most cases, your stats go up when you have less help.

Look at T-Mac. His best season was in 03 when he had his least help. LeBron was much better in 09-10 with that shitty Cavs team than when he was with Wade and Bosh (09 is the greatest Regular Season of the past few decades). Duncan's peak seasons were from 01-03, when he had the least help of his career.

People using Vinny and Avery as an excuse for David's underwhelming Playoff performances are misinformed. He had a limited half-court offensive game, which is what you need to dominate in the slowed-down tempo of the Playoffs. Tim had one, Shaq had one. They both raised their games. Garnett and Robinson didn't, and they usually came up short when it mattered most. Not because of teammates (LeBron and others have proved that they can performed better with less help), but because they weren't good enough to get it done as clear-cut #1 options that opposing defenses geared their schemes toward.

David has said multiple times that he needed someone like Duncan who you can run an offense through to win.

[2centsworth]

Also, one thing for the 'D-Rob had less help crowd': in most cases, your stats go up when you have less help.

Look at T-Mac. His best season was in 03 when he had his least help. LeBron was much better in 09-10 with that shitty Cavs team than when he was with Wade and Bosh (09 is the greatest Regular Season of the past few decades). Duncan's peak seasons were from 01-03, when he had the least help of his career.

So you agree that David had less help.



People using Vinny and Avery as an excuse for David's underwhelming Playoff performances are misinformed. He had a limited half-court offensive game, which is what you need to dominate in the slowed-down tempo of the Playoffs. Tim had one, Shaq had one. They both raised their games. Garnett and Robinson didn't, and they usually came up short when it mattered most. Not because of teammates (LeBron and others have proved that they can performed better with less help), but because they weren't good enough to get it done as clear-cut #1 options that opposing defenses geared their schemes toward.

Jordan needed Pippen, Kobe needed Shaq and Pau, Lebron needed Wade. David played with one "sane" Half-of-Famer, Tim Duncan and won. Timmy has played with several Hall-of-Famers, including his coach.


David has said multiple times that he needed someone like Duncan who you can run an offense through to win.

all great players need other stars to win Championships. No player is perfect. I wish David were in his prime now with Coach Pop. That would be scary.

[bic50]

I never really get the 'talent/skill' debates, so I'm just going to answer which was was better: Tim Duncan.

Give D-Rob his Regular Seasons. Duncan stepped up when it mattered, and he wasn't going from 30/10 seasons to being contained by Felton Spencer and Tom Chambers.
Gtfoh with your disrespect for drob.

[2centsworth]

Monty Williams told Anthony Davis that the Spurs had to black out the windows in the practice facility the first time Tim ever met David on the court because he was destroying him so badly 1-on-1.

Your source for David kicking his ass? Probably David himself, right?
I know that story, and of course Monty exaggerates. Tim earned Drob's respect, but that shit never happened again. DRob kicked his ass consistently.

[bic50]

Duncan had to carry Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, and Mark Bryant as starters in the playoffs too.
David had to carry scrub teams basically his whole career to the playoffs. I mean talk about carrying a team., David constantly lead the team in points, rebs, assists,steals, blocks.

[bic50]

And btw Im not voting on this crap. We as fans were lucky to have both, for some here to start talking down on either one shows how spoiled and stupid this fanbase has become.

[T_L_P]

So you agree that David had less help.

Yes, nobody would argue otherwise.


Jordan needed Pippen, Kobe needed Shaq and Pau, Lebron needed Wade. David played with one "sane" Half-of-Famer, Tim Duncan and won. Timmy has played with several Hall-of-Famers, including his coach.

They needed those players to win, not to perform well. People, like yourself, use David's underwhelming teammates for his poor play (relative to his Regular Seasons) in the 94 and 96 Jazz series', his inability to beat a team than won 11 less games than him in 91, and a bunch of his awful end-of-season games. In most of these series he was being defended by bums like Tom Chambers, Oliver Miller, Jim Peterson, Andrew Lang. He wasn't going up against Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Daugherty in his prime. When he did go up against Hakeem he got slaughtered.

OTOH, when Duncan went up against LA in 02 with an shitty, old, injured Robinson and a bunch of scrubs, he still managed to put up a 29/17/5 series, because his teammates didn't dictate his play, merely the outcome of the series (wins and losses).

That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform, and it's common knowledge that Duncan performed better in the Playoffs than Robinson. Not because of his help, but because of his ability.

One more thing: Duncan won in 03 without another All-Star. let alone another HoF-worthy player. Parker and Manu weren't effective players yet, and Robinson was on his last legs. So no, you don't always need HoFers to win. Duncan didn't, Hakeem didn't. And guess what? Both those guys were dominant low-post players who are better than the David Robinson's, the Kevin Garnett's, the Karl Malone's.

[T_L_P]

I know that story, and of course Monty exaggerates. Tim earned Drob's respect, but that shit never happened again. DRob kicked his ass consistently.

Some proof?

[Join'orDie]

all great players need other stars to win Championships. No player is perfect. I wish David were in his prime now with Coach Pop. That would be scary.

Also, David would say that because he is one of the most humble dudes to ever play pro sports. And I agree prime Admiral in the league right now would be unstoppable. It is pretty much agreed that barring injury Anthony Davis will be the best player in basketball in a couple years and David was so much better than AD, despite the similar skill set, it's not even funny. Also, it's interesting to note the people saying David didn't win because he didn't have a back to the basket game like TD and Dream, yet every big tries to play like D-Rob these days. That's the direction the league is moving and the back to the basket post players are becoming less important. Kinda like how saying a three point focussed team will never win a championship now seems silly.

[2centsworth]

If David would of signed with the Lakers instead of Spurs, he would have won a title or two with Magic.

[2centsworth]

And btw Im not voting on this crap. We as fans were lucky to have both, for some here to start talking down on either one shows how spoiled and stupid this fanbase has become.

think i'm with you because I don't want to talk Tim down, because he's one of my all-time favorites. Just can't help but imagine David in his prime with Pop and this generation of Spurs ex-Tim.

[2centsworth]

Looked at advanced stats for each player.

DROB's Per 26/23 Regualr Season/Playoffs. Tim 24/24

[Join'orDie]

As Shaq always says "the others" need to step up big for teams to win championships. Elie, Elliott, JJ in 99. Kerr and Jackson 03. Horry hit a mammoth shot in 05. Today we have players like Green and Mills. Hell modern Spurs fans hate when the 15th guy can't contribute. Admiral would have killed to have had the Red Rocket on any of his squads.

[bic50]

think i'm with you because I don't want to talk Tim down, because he's one of my all-time favorites. Just can't help but imagine David in his prime with Pop and this generation of Spurs ex-Tim.
David is a once in a generation talent. To say tim had better coaching, teammates then david isnt in no way a knock on TD. Tim is also a once in a generation talent who would have succeeded anywhere he landed. However David played in a time where with prime barkely, malone and stockton, payton and kemp, hakeem, jordan and pippen, ewing, etc were all in their primes and a young shaq aswell. It would have been incredibly difficult for TD to carry any of Drobs teams to the finals with sean ****** who was a borerline all star as a 2nd option with avery and del negro who are no manu and tp, And if he were able to pull that off they would have jordan and pippen bulls waiting on them in the finals. TD is an incredible player and so was Drob, They both deserve our utmost respect. I agree with you though, Drob in todays league with pop and crew would be AD on steroids.

[elemento]

Yes, nobody would argue otherwise.



They needed those players to win, not to perform well. People, like yourself, use David's underwhelming teammates for his poor play (relative to his Regular Seasons) in the 94 and 96 Jazz series', his inability to beat a team than won 11 less games than him in 91, and a bunch of his awful end-of-season games. In most of these series he was being defended by bums like Tom Chambers, Oliver Miller, Jim Peterson, Andrew Lang. He wasn't going up against Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Daugherty in his prime. When he did go up against Hakeem he got slaughtered.

OTOH, when Duncan went up against LA in 02 with an shitty, old, injured Robinson and a bunch of scrubs, he still managed to put up a 29/17/5 series, because his teammates didn't dictate his play, merely the outcome of the series (wins and losses).

That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform, and it's common knowledge that Duncan performed better in the Playoffs than Robinson. Not because of his help, but because of his ability.

One more thing: Duncan won in 03 without another All-Star. let alone another HoF-worthy player. Parker and Manu weren't effective players yet, and Robinson was on his last legs. So no, you don't always need HoFers to win. Duncan didn't, Hakeem didn't. And guess what? Both those guys were dominant low-post players who are better than the David Robinson's, the Kevin Garnett's, the Karl Malone's.

Great post tbh

[TD 21]

:lol At anyone saying Robinson. The only thing he had on Duncan was physical tools, which like any of the physical specimen types (Chamberlain, O'Neal, James, to a lesser extent Howard), played a part in his historical statistical dominance, at least in the regular season.

That's not skill set, talent or basketball ability; that's the genetic lottery.

[MaineSpursFan]

David Robinson

[baseline bum]

Offensively, that should definitely go to Tim. Tim's footwork and creativity on the block were on a level like Hakeem and McHale. It's funny, but I never hear anyone mention McHale when talking about Tim's offensive game. I'd say that Tim, Hakeem and Kevin McHale are probably the most fundamentally sound offensive big men the NBA has ever seen. Kareem was great, but he didn't have the repertoire of these three.

McHale is so overrated, he doesn't belong in any conversation with Duncan, Olajuwon, and Abdul-Jabbar. McHale and Parish were along for the ride, Bird was the Celtics.

[barbacoataco]

Robinson was more athletic but Duncan is a better player

[Kool Bob Love]

DR is criminally underrated by the TD era fans.

Im not gonna lie this post is the truth. I voted Duncan but I really wish Robinson would have won 1 or 2 on his own.

same for iceman.

[barbacoataco]

Yeah 1990-1996 Robinson was really b@dass. Thought by most to be a top 3 player in the league at the time, but subsequently he was re-evaluated and downgraded. As you get older you realize that history is rewritten and shaped by narratives that often have little to do with what actually happened.

[SnakeBoy]

TD gets the edge in skill
DRob not quite the skill of TD but he was a far better athlete

Agreed but DRob was very skilled as well.

It's BS to say DRob couldn't get it done, TD couldn't have gotten it done with the teams DRob had to carry before TD's arrival. Ninja was the only solid talent DRob had around him consistently for the pre Duncan era.

[Quasar]

TD is a winner. He's done it 5 times. He led that 2003 team of dubious talent to a title. David didn't / couldn't . Forget all that. Who's the better basketball player, in the purest sense?

From whottt with love (2009 thread: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134772)


Crock of shit...the 2003 team was the best Spurs Team of them all (NDLR: until 2009), are you fucking kidding me?
3 Hall of Famers
3 Olympic Championships
About 20 All NBA Teams
About 18 All NBA Defensive Teams
Best 3 point shooter in NBA history, single season, and a carreer.
About 6 NBA 3 point shooting titles.
3 or 4 rebounding titles.
Blocked Shots Title.
Scoring Title.
Olympic MVP
Finals MVP

And none of those are including Tim Duncan.

I can't believe you guys think Duncan didn't have help on that team. That was one of the best basketball teams ever assembled.

It is the only basketball team in history to defeat a 3 time defending champion with it's core intact(meaning it's superstars were healthy).

It is the only team in NBA history to do that...and that doesn't even include the 60 win team they beat(that they haven't beat since), or the returning conference finalist.

You guys are morons if you think that was a scrub team...David Robinson right now would be better than any guy to line up at C since...and don't say he wasn't servicable, non-servicable players aren't the guys being asked to defend Shaq and actually left in by Pop to do it, and holding him scoreless when they are guy defending him in at least one of those games.


And I can't believe Spur fans shit on David Robinson...

More importantly, what I am saying is the truth, and what they are saying is not. I am not speaking from ignorance and lack of insight, and they are.

They start it, they start the ugliness...they start the Spur on Spur violence.

Don't whine like a bitch just because I can get uglier...

Anytime David Robinson is belittled to make Duncan look better I am going to stick it up their ass until they fucking bleed.

And I will outdo them in visciousness, ugliness and shittyness every fucking time.

So you guys either stop being stupid enough to insinuate David Robinson was in any way the reason we didn't win championships, in a stupid effort to get Duncan credit he already gets...or else it's ugliness.

Don't say David Robinson was the reason the Spurs didn't win a championship, don't even fucking think it. Idiots.




You guys OTOH are saying David Robinson wasn't good enough to do it with a team capable of doing it.

And that is absolutely not the truth whatsoever. David Robinson was good enough to win a championship, from the very day he stepped on the court, to the day he walked off of it. And not a single time that they failed to do so, was it ever his fault.

It makes total sense to me...I am a misanthropic individual pretty much at odds with the world and the mindless stupidity of human beings, I just need a deserving outlet...and idiots serve that purpose. If you guys are going to be bunch of stupid fucking morons that crap on the guy that saved the franchise, something Duncan probably would not have done had the situation been reversed....you aren't much of a Spurfan.

I know what a lot of people say...a lot of people also used to say the earth was flat.

I don't care if you guys think Duncan is better than Drob, I do not care if you guys think he is the greatest player ever....

But when you say David Robinson couldn't get it done...you are being a shithead and a fucking moron. And he did get it done, he did everything in his power, even taking a role beyond the notice of idiots, just like he promised he would when he signed his contract with SA.

[barbacoataco]

Right on! Robinson was a beast. He had the fastest full court speed on the team of any player at any position. You're talking about a guy who lead the league in scoring while also being one of the best defensive players of all time. Look at his block totals. Of course he was good enough to lead a team to a championship.

[Russ]

McHale and Parish were along for the ride, Bird was the Celtics.

That reminds me of the story of the wise old sportswriter in Boston commenting to his friend as the Celtics starters are introduced one by one.

"Nice player, but I'm not sure you can win with him . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

Finally, Bird is introduced and the guy turns to the sportswriter, "So what're you gonna say about him?"

The sportswriter just looks at Bird and nods his head, "Now that's one helluva team."

[CGD]

This is pretty easily Duncan. Robinson never had Duncan's ability to score in the post, he was never the passer out of the post Duncan is either. Robinson had a better face up game due to him being a lot quicker and his jumper was far superior, but if I'm down one with 10 seconds left I'm giving the ball to Duncan since I can trust him a lot more to either score or make the right pass from the low post.

[baseline bum]

That reminds me of the story of the wise old sportswriter in Boston commenting to his friend as the Celtics starters are introduced one by one.

"Nice player, but I'm not sure you can win with him . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

Finally, Bird is introduced and the guy turns to the sportswriter, "So what're you gonna say about him?"

The sportswriter just looks at Bird and nods his head, "Now that's one helluva team."

Haha, I can't believe how far the games of McHale and Parish have been amplified over time while everyone has forgotten how amazing Bird was, like Bird-McHale was 2001 Shaq-Kobe. Hell, it wasn't even Jordan-Pippen. Damn if Bird hadn't put in that stupid driveway at his house in the 1983 offseason that destroyed his back for the rest of his career.

[Quasar]

I don't see any teams that any other bigman would have won a title with that David played on, because the outside shooting and perimeter game wasn't good enough.




Just because I'm being vulgar doesn't mean I'm belittling Duncan. He wasn't good enough to get it done by himself...neither was David, neither was any other player in NBA history. The POV that it is otherwise is both fucked and wrong.




So what you are saying is because Duncan had a team that could win a game where he scored 5 points means he is better because David played on teams that couldn't win games when he scored 30 points?

Hey fucking idiot...

Avery Johnson made 1 playoff 3 pointer in 19 fucking years, that was an extra defender he had to contend with...that was John Stockton, being free to elbow him in the balls in every series they ever played.

You show me...one other player since the merger, that carried a team to the playoffs, much less to the conference finals, that David Robinson wasn't on...that had a PG that made 1 fucking playoff 3 pointer in a 19 year career.

To put this in perspective...in Tony Parker's first game as a 19 year old rookie, against a HOF point guard, named the Glove, he tripled the figure Avery Johnson put up in his entire career.

Let me spell it out for you one more time

AJ in 19 years, in 90 playoffs games:

1-26 3pm-3pa

Tony Parker in his first playoff game, against Gary fucking Payton, at the age of 19

1 game: 3-3 3pm-3pa

And Tony's not even supposed to be able to shoot.

You guys that make these arguments are just too fucking stupid to understand what a double team is, what enables them to be done to players, and what it takes to beat them.


When Jaren Jackson nuked the Lakers? Was because Tim Duncan was feeling it that season.

That 19 points in a quarter and OT against Detroit in game 5 of the NBA finals by Robert Horry?

Duncan
Feeling
It
100%.

Steve Kerr? Mavs?

Duncan feeling it. The reason Kerr was in the game was not because no one else could hit a shot, it was because Duncan wasn't feeling it. Kerr was put into the game so Duncan would again, feel it.

Stephen Jackson bombing all those shots in the 2003 run?

Yeap. Duncan, feeling it.

S'really what it's all about. Duncan either feels it or he doesn't.

Olympics, with LeBron and Wade and AI and Kidd, gainst Manu?

Not feeling it. Not that year. Spent the off season practicing with the Olympic Squad, gave up his summer....fucked himself up for the following season, being humiliated on a world stage, and trashed(along with the Dream Team) by his fellow citizen, just because it seemed like it would be fun. He did not want to win Olympic Gold that year....

Because...
He
Did
Not
Feel
It

then.

[Quasar]

Duncan defense


Uh...[NDLR: as of 2009] Dirk's gotten (Duncan) twice now. Karl Malone got him twice.

Amare Stoudemire dropped nearly 40 point a game on Duncan a couple of years ago.



At least David didn't get buttfucked by Dirk Nowitski and have his 2 guard draw the assignment of defending him, as the guy on his team.

I know I know...it's different then.

Go ahead...blame Manu, I fucking dare you.

Idiots.



If Duncan is such a great Shaq defender, then what happened in 2004? We still had Kevin Willis and Malik Rose you know...

Why don't you look and see what Shaq did to us in 2004 VS every other time we played him in the playoffs ever, with David.

Shaq was held to his playoff lows for that season every single time he was guarded by David Robinson...and he destroyed our frontline the year after David left.

And finally, I didn't say David was still the David of old in that series. And yes his medical problems were that bad...he often was left without any feelings in his legs.

Nontheless David on his last legs in the NBA against Shaq in his prime was a better Shaq defender than Duncan was on his best day in his prime.

And one other thing...Shaq didn't score a point from the field with David on him in game 1 of that series.


You come off like a fucking idiot saying at least Duncan wasn't owned by Karl Malone, considering Duncan never beat him in the playoffs.

Duncan is 0-2 against Karl Malone. Including 0-1 as a defending champ.





And don't you dare bring up teamates...because that was the year David Robinson left. And Duncan had a proven championship side kick playing along side.

Furthermore, Duncan has not beaten Dirk Nowiski in the post since David Robinson retired (NDLR - as of 2009).

Duncan cannot guard Amare Stoudemire or Dirk Nowtiski and you think he was going to shut fuckihng Hakeem Olajuwon down?

You are the stupidest fucking idiot I haver ever met in my life.

No no no...you go fuck youself. Teamates don't matter remember?

And you consider Manu Ginobili a liability and valid reason for not winning, when he fucking beat Duncan and a team of All Stars in the Olympics? But not Avery Johnson and Vinney Del Negro.

You stupid, ignorant motherfucker.

Actually you chickenshit piece of shit...the reason you get so much hostility is because you act like David had everything he needed to win a championship yet immediately go the teamates card when you get your own ignorance stuck up your ass.

You're a fucking idiot, and you bring down the intelligence level of the board.

Even worse, you throw David Robinson under a bus, just make Duncan look better, which is something he doesn't even needl, which makes you not only an idiot, but a piece of shit as well.

FOAD. Your take is a dime a dozen, it's stupid, you contradict yourserlf immediately when presented with even a rudimentary counterpoint, and you are too fucking stupud to even realize it.

Furthermore, you consider Manu Ginobili a reason the Spurs didn't win and David Robinson a reason Vinny Del Negro didn't win.

You don't know shiit. You are a fucking moron.

[bic50]

Yes, nobody would argue otherwise.



They needed those players to win, not to perform well. People, like yourself, use David's underwhelming teammates for his poor play (relative to his Regular Seasons) in the 94 and 96 Jazz series', his inability to beat a team than won 11 less games than him in 91, and a bunch of his awful end-of-season games. In most of these series he was being defended by bums like Tom Chambers, Oliver Miller, Jim Peterson, Andrew Lang. He wasn't going up against Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Daugherty in his prime. When he did go up against Hakeem he got slaughtered.

OTOH, when Duncan went up against LA in 02 with an shitty, old, injured Robinson and a bunch of scrubs, he still managed to put up a 29/17/5 series, because his teammates didn't dictate his play, merely the outcome of the series (wins and losses).

That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform, and it's common knowledge that Duncan performed better in the Playoffs than Robinson. Not because of his help, but because of his ability.

One more thing: Duncan won in 03 without another All-Star. let alone another HoF-worthy player. Parker and Manu weren't effective players yet, and Robinson was on his last legs. So no, you don't always need HoFers to win. Duncan didn't, Hakeem didn't. And guess what? Both those guys were dominant low-post players who are better than the David Robinson's, the Kevin Garnett's, the Karl Malone's.

"That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform" You cant perform when the opposition does not respect your supporting crew, that's why Drob constantly was double even triple teamed, they had no fear of his teammates to step up and help him out and they didnt. Double hakeem his supporting cast would make you pay big time, kept the defense honest leaving room for hakeem to work, witnessed this a bunch during their championship runs, elie, maxwell, k.smith, where horry started to develop his clutch reputation, clyde drexler was no joke either and is a hall of famer. We've seen Parker, Manu not only hit big shots but show the ability to take over games, drop 20,30,40 points on the opposition. David never that kind of help, he was everything for that team, they depended on him so much that in times of need had no idea what to do or didn't have the ability to do what was needed.

[Quasar]

The only thing I'm saying about Duncan is that he didn't do it by himself, and giving examples....oh how mean can I be?

Meanwhile you guys are saying David couldn't get it done on a team capable of it, as if he was somehow part of the problem...the only one belittling anyone is you.




That first year Hakeem won a title...he played for a team that set the NBA single season record for 3 pointers made.

It mattered...it wasn't just that Hakeem felt like stepping up.

Dipshits, why don't ya'll go look at the numbers David put up in the post seasion, when he had PG's that had some semblance of a perimeter threat..





And by the way...David Robinson was never swept in a series in his prime. That is not true of Hakeem, or Duncan, or Shaq, or Kareem, or Wilt.

And with the exception of the loss to GS, the teams David lost to were either teams that would at some point make the finals, to lose to perenneial champions like the Pistons or Bulls, and featured multiple HOF'ers on them, or at some point won a championship.

[Quasar]

When doing this comparison, there are other factors...

Would Tim Duncan have even signed with the Spurs? It's debatable.

One thing is not...if Tim Duncan had signed with the Spurs, they would have surrounded him with better talent than they did Drob...because Duncan would have made them or else he would have walked. I mean Duncan almost walked away from a Spurs team that had won a championship. David never even came close to walking untill the end of his career and his motivations for walking were entirely different than Duncan's.

David didn't put that same kind of pressure to win on the Spurs. He looked at it as his job and his job alone to win the Spurs a title. He wasn't going to ask them to give him help. And IMO the Spurs took advantage of that aspect of David and didn't do everything they could have done to build a winner around him. Duncan wasn't going to play that game with the Spurs and he made that clear right off the bat...and it's probably the #1 reason the Spurs have 4 championships now more than anything Robinson or Duncan ever did on the court.




if young David Robinson had old Tim Duncan as a teamate...how would things have turned out then?

[Quasar]

Wow so many posts in one day... rare for me :)

I don't agree with everything Whottt says or the way he said it, but I just thought he would have been all over this thread if he were still here.

His posts were always entertaining and backed by facts plus some good old fanboyism.

[Quasar]

Couchman - I like it - rational argument based on facts and a conclusion, but I disagree :) Teams collapsed on David the way they can't on Duncan. You rarely see Duncan triple-teamed because the Spurs have too many weapons. Remember the playoffs when David was injured? See my earlier Whottt posts :)

David destroyed Duncan in 1 vs 1 in practice circa 98/99. Even in prime vs prime, I believe David would beaten Duncan any day thanks to his superior physical abilities and skill set, including his jump-shooting ability.

However in a playoff series with teams of equal ability (e.g. with Parker, Manu, Kawhi, Boris) and swapping Duncan for David, I'd say David beats Duncan 4-3.

Witness how Duncan was beaten by Dirk/Shaq/Amare/ZBo - imagine all those players rolled into one and you'd get David in his prime.


We are so lucky as Spurs fans to be able to have this conversation. I was there in person for DRob's 1st game ever against the Lakers and rooted my heart out for him his entire career. David Robinson was one of the most elite athletes to ever walk the earth, and he used that ability to be one of the greatest basketball players of all time, and yet he was fairly limited in terms of the offensive basketball skills that matter for a big man. The comparison between TD and DR is close, but for me it is decided by this factor. Robinson did not have a consistent and dependable set of post moves which kept him from being a dependable "go to" option in crunch time. That was during an era of basketball where that skillset was more important than it is now.
By contrast, Tim Duncan is an elite athlete, but not an all time great athelete like Robinson was. What TD immediately brought to San Antonio was a mastery of historically proven "Big Man" skills. Tim ALWAYS held the ball up high and avoided having the ball stripped or fumbling the ball as Robinson often did. TD had an array of post moves, most of which resulted in easy buckets or soft misses off the rim that were prime for put backs. Because of his superior post play Duncan also could generate offense better by passing out of the post. This was the foundation of an offense that allowed lesser role players to thrive. Guys like Antonio Daniels, Derek Anderson, Devin Brown, etc etc and the list goes on.
One final factor is that TD is a brutally fierce competitor while DRob was the ultimate gentleman. I think TDs competitive fire is a significant advantage for him and his teams that helped not only fire him up but also keep his m in line.
My vote goes to Duncan.

[bic50]

"And I can't believe Spur fans shit on David Robinson...

More importantly, what I am saying is the truth, and what they are saying is not. I am not speaking from ignorance and lack of insight, and they are.

They start it, they start the ugliness...they start the Spur on Spur violence.

Don't whine like a bitch just because I can get uglier...

Anytime David Robinson is belittled to make Duncan look better I am going to stick it up their ass until they fucking bleed.

"And I will outdo them in visciousness, ugliness and shittyness every fucking time.

So you guys either stop being stupid enough to insinuate David Robinson was in any way the reason we didn't win championships, in a stupid effort to get Duncan credit he already gets...or else it's ugliness.

Don't say David Robinson was the reason the Spurs didn't win a championship, don't even fucking think it. Idiots."



This is great. It is indeed Sad "spurs fan" try an belittle Drob the way they do.

[Russ]

David didn't put that same kind of pressure to win on the Spurs. He looked at it as his job . . .

That hits it right on the head -- the difference between Tim and Dave.

Dave played basketball because he was good at it. He was given talent and he was going to use that talent. It would be a crime not to. People expected it and he wasn't going to let those people down. It was his job.

Almost no one on this Earth was more conscientious than David Robinson.

Duncan just played because he needed to win. It killed him to lose. Therefore he did everything to learn how to win -- he strategized about how to maximize what he had -- like developing the best footwork and post game around.

He couldn't give a damn about any job.

[Quasar]

Awesome post below Join'orDie - well thought out and well written!! No ragging, only respect! You only have 5 posts only???!? :)

David was not *just* a finesse player though, although he had the jump-shooting skills. He also had his famously violent tomahawk dunks. His rim defense, blocks, blocking out, and rebounding were legendary as well. Ibaka is not nearly the kind of player he was...

Anyone who goes toe to toe against Shaq and beats him is not *just* a finesse player. David beat Shaq consistently in head to head games where they were THE Man.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XivZd3mRVw

I am biased though - I became a Spurs fan because of who DRob was outside the court. I then found he was an awesome player.

Manu became my favourite after David left...

My favourite players are the Spurs fans love to rag on the most... so I thought I should be the contrarian here until I found your post :)



D-Rob, MJ, Shaq, Lebron, are the most talented players I've ever seen. These four had dominating physical gifts (that they sometimes relied too heavily on) combined with the skill to use those gifts. Tim is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen and a top 5 competitor as well; along with MJ, Bird, Kobe, Gino. To put it another way Tim is considered one of the best bigs to ever run the floor because Tim runs the floor hard every play not because he's particularly fast. D-Rob was one of the greatest big runners because he was the fastest guy on the court.

Robinson was hurt by the era he played. Dude was a finesse big in the time of smash-mouth. What Detroit did to Tim in '05 David had game in and game out. Admiral was at the top of the FTs attempted list year after year not because he flopped or tried to draw contact, but because teams would hammer him as this was the only viable defensive strategy. And because it was the 90s he probably didn't get to the line as much as he should have, flagrants weren't called enough, and every team had four or five goons to throw at him.

The other thing that hurts D-Rob is the talent and organization around him. In his first season, the Strickland pass year, Spurs only made like 50 threes and shot less than 25% on 3-point attempts. And yet the Spurs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league at the time largely thanks to Robinson. The 3-point situation never got a whole lot better, contrasted with Dream who was surrounded by great shooters, D-Rob never had a chance. Strickland, the best pg David played with, fueded publicly with the teams dumbass owner and left in free agency for nothing. Terry Cummings the best 4-man to play with David (before Tim) blew out his ACL in a pickup game in '92. Elliott was traded for Denis the Menace. The head coaches chair looked more like a revolving door with like 6 coaches in 8 years. And ownership was more interested in selling the team than actually putting a winning product on the floor.

All of this and the Spurs were still a top regular season team every year because of David. For this reason I think Admiral's leadership is also criminally underrated. Robinson's early years actually mirror Jordan's in a lot of ways; and just like MJ, D-Rob needed a Pippen. Except he never got a Pippen. Instead he got one of the 5 greatest to play the game. And because of age, injuries, and a willingness to put team before individual needs Robinson played Robin to Tim's Batman. But make no mistake, in his prime, the Admiral was one of the most incredible talents to ever touch a basketball.

[Quasar]

That hits it right on the head -- the difference between Tim and Dave.

Dave played basketball because he was good at it. He was given talent and he was going to use that talent. It would be a crime not to. People expected it and he wasn't going to let those people down. It was his job.

Almost no one on this Earth was more conscientious than David Robinson.

Whottt actually meant that David looked at it as HIS job to make the spurs win.

That is, he did not twist the hands of the front-office into making changes that would give the Spurs the best chance to win.

Remember that Duncan almost walked off...

[Russ]

Whottt actually meant that David looked at it as HIS job to make the spurs win.

That is, he did not twist the hands of the front-office into making changes that would give the Spurs the best chance to win.

Remember that Duncan almost walked off...

Duncan almost walked off because he only cared about winning (then realized the potential error).

But you're right, I just twisted the quote to suit my point . . .

[Quasar]

:D Right there with you Russ...

Don't you miss Whottt and his interminably long rants? :D

[baseline bum]

If David would of signed with the Lakers instead of Spurs, he would have won a title or two with Magic.

I still hope Rick Barry gets AIDS tbh

[Keepin' it real]

David was slightly more talented and better defensively.
Tim has been a considerably more reliable low-post scorer than David, which helped him enjoy better playoff success.

But since 2004, Tim has had sooo much better teammates than David ever did before Tim arrived.

I still remember driving to a Spurs game back in the day, only to hear on the radio that the Spurs decided at the last minute to let David sit out the game for injury reasons. Talk about devastating. David WAS the Spurs. If he wasn't playing, why even bother going to the game?

At least with Tim's teams, it's been entertaining to watch Tony and Manu propel the team to victories in Tim's absence. If only 5-0 could have had a Tony and Manu of his own ...

[barbacoataco]

No doubt Robinson was a better defender. With his size, speed, strength and being left handed, he was built to block shots. While Duncan has the better low post game, as an overall scorer Robinson was more prolific, had a great face/up game and better mid-range jump shot. He also went to the FT line a lot. Offensively Robinson had a game kind of like Amare, but he was bigger and faster. And he was a million times better than Amare on defense. Go back and read stories from the day and Robinson was clearly regarded higher while active than he is now 20 years later. I think mainly because of the 1995 Rockets series being blown out of proportion. But I'm not getting into that now.

[T_L_P]

"That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform" You cant perform when the opposition does not respect your supporting crew, that's why Drob constantly was double even triple teamed, they had no fear of his teammates to step up and help him out and they didnt. Double hakeem his supporting cast would make you pay big time, kept the defense honest leaving room for hakeem to work, witnessed this a bunch during their championship runs, elie, maxwell, k.smith, where horry started to develop his clutch reputation, clyde drexler was no joke either and is a hall of famer. We've seen Parker, Manu not only hit big shots but show the ability to take over games, drop 20,30,40 points on the opposition. David never that kind of help, he was everything for that team, they depended on him so much that in times of need had no idea what to do or didn't have the ability to do what was needed.

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar circumstances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

[2centsworth]

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar circumstances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

you're taking one series in isolation and forming a general opinion. Using the imperfect, but better measurement PER, Duncan is consistent at 24.5 during regular and post season, while David was at 26/23. I've seen Duncan shit the bed in a series or two, but that doesn't define his career.


What I will say is that David never reached his full potential, which I mainly blame on the organization. David was not a gym rat, but a more naturally gifted athlete than Tim. David with Pop and this current generation of Spurs would have been amazing to see.

[Join'orDie]

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar circumstances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

Really you're going to grab some random series and compare them? Fine then so will I. At age 34 both Robinson and Duncan played on teams where the best players were injured. In the 2000 playoffs Duncan was out as the 4 seed Spurs played the 5 seed Suns. In 2011, Ginobili played with a broken arm, as the 1 seed Spurs played the 8 seed Grizzlies. Both teams would lose in the first round 4-2 in '11 and 3-1 in '00.

Duncan averaged 13-10.5-2.5 on 48% shooting 15.5 PER and .500 TS.
Robinson averaged 23.5-14-3 on 37% shooting 25.6 PER and .463 TS

Also 20-10-2 is better than Duncan's playoff stats going back to 2008.

[Kidd K]

Wait how old are you? lol. Aren't you only like 23? You didn't really see either of them play wtf are you talking about :lol

Tbh he's actually correct, DRob and Hakeem were the best two-way bigs of this generation. Though if he's 23 obviously he didn't really see them play and/or wasn't old enough to understand how good they were.

While Duncan is up there defensively obviously, both Hakeem and DRob were bigger impacts on offense.

[dweaver99027]

Theoretical - Would the 89 - 97 Spurs have won more with Shaq instead of Dave? Had Shaq entered the league in 89, ofcourse.

[BD24]

Tbh he's actually correct, DRob and Hakeem were the best two-way bigs of this generation. Though if he's 23 obviously he didn't really see them play and/or wasn't old enough to understand how good they were.

While Duncan is up there defensively obviously, both Hakeem and DRob were bigger impacts on offense.
This, thank you.

I was not saying that he was either correct or incorrect. I was commenting on the fact he made it seem like he saw them play and had a deep understanding of basketball at the time. I never saw Hakeem or Drob play, but I know many people have said Hakeem was the most skilled big on the offensive end of the court.

[barbacoataco]

Hakeeem had more dependable low post moves and the fadeaway, but Robinson routinely scored as much or more at a very efficient pace.

[TD 21]

This, thank you.

I was not saying that he was either correct or incorrect. I was commenting on the fact he made it seem like he saw them play and had a deep understanding of basketball at the time. I never saw Hakeem or Drob play, but I know many people have said Hakeem was the most skilled big on the offensive end of the court.

With the possible exception of Bryant, no player has benefited more from revisionist history than Olajuwon. Flashiness, athleticism and an extremely high peak, are the reasons for this.

Spurs fans, in particular, have had a hard on for him since the '95 WCF. But the truth is, there's no credible argument to justify the amount of hype he receives.

As far as skill, the only thing he had on Duncan was he was a far more explosive athlete, so a lot of what he did seemed more spectacular. People seem to forget how ridiculously skilled Duncan was, when his knee still worked.

[BD24]

With the possible exception of Bryant, no player has benefited more from revisionist history than Olajuwon. Flashiness, athleticism and an extremely high peak, are the reasons for this.

Spurs fans, in particular, have had a hard on for him since the '95 WCF. But the truth is, there's no credible argument to justify the amount of hype he receives.

As far as skill, the only thing he had on Duncan was he was a far more explosive athlete, so a lot of what he did seemed more spectacular. People seem to forget how ridiculously skilled Duncan was, when his knee still worked.
My problem with Hakeem is the very short prime as well. Like, you said though his peak was superstar, on top of that he took two fairly poor teams to championships. He, Duncan, and Dirk are the only player who really won a ship without another all star/sidekick.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

In terms of pure talent...David, for reasons already well-stated. David and Hakeem were probably the two most physically gifted big men ever to play the game. David's window of maximum skillset was shorter than Tim's due to a) entering the league late and b) his back issues. But I've never seen a player do what David could do on the court.

All that being said, Tim is a winner, pure and simple, and deservedly should go down in history as the greatest Spur ever. His presence, his desire to win, his quiet leadership, his ability to transform his body and his game to still be impactful at 40 years old. All of those things are what makes Tim one of the greatest NBA players of all time. David, unfortunately for him, won't have nearly the legacy that Tim will in terms of NBA lore.

[dweaver99027]

Can the argument be made for David being a Top 3 defensive Center in NBA history? I guess Russell has the lead, but after that? Hakeem? Ben Wallace? Tim? Wilt? Who else is up there?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Totally disagree that David was more talented than Duncan. More physically gifted, sure. More basketball talent? No fucking way. Guess the word talent is too ambiguous.

50 without his athleticism is a borderline NBA player. Duncan without athleticism is still a top 2 player on a championship contender.

[31kungodt]

I was having the admiral discussion with myself in 12´ when i saw the "12 dunk game" on youtube. I think that Tim has showed us all time and time again that he is the superior one overall. But Robinson is hands down the most unique player - probably in all of basketball. Add some killer instinct, some smarts and probably erase a little bit of his fondness of god (no offense at all) and you are left with what could have been the sequel of Bill Russell. Great coaching would also have helped.



His size and body stature alone - tall, quick, could jump and not prone to injuries. Great jump shooter for a big man. Only thing missing was psyche. I mean the prayers wars joke says it all sometims.



His last game probably the one which give him most due. He is dominating.

[Eggeye]

Tim Duncan no doubt.

[Slippy]

David was the better athlete and defender. Tim stands out offensively and on accomplishments.

[TDfan2007]

I'm seeing a lot of people here repeating the same things.

1) "David was more talented than Timmy"

What does talent entail? If what you're trying to say is that David was far more athletically gifted, then I agree. However, isn't skill encompassed by talent? Timmy was more skilled and coordinated than David, so doesn't that count?

2) "Timmy got destroyed by Amare, so he's not as good of a defender as David"

Yes, Amare went bananas in that series, but there are several reasons. First, Amare was a tremendous offensive player who set a Suns franchise record for most consective 20+ point games in the 07 playoffs (moving past Sir Charles in the process). Second, Timmy was hobbled in that 05 series and playing on 2 bad ankles. Not easy to guard an explosively athletic faceup player when you have 2 bum ankles. Finally, Amare scored a ton of points that series in pick and rolls, which has nothing to do with individual defense.


Now as for the actual comparison...

Offense:

David sometimes doesn't get his proper due as a scorer for whatever reason, but in his prime he was a scoring machine. David was a more prolific scorer than Timmy in the regular season, partly due to pace, but mostly due to the fact that he was just an athletic freak with a great faceup game and reliable mid-range J. The playoffs however, were a different story. David's efficiency would routinely drop from regular season to playoffs, as the slower tempo and more focused defenses took advantage of his lack of a broad and reliable post game. This is where Timmy's advantage comes to play. Timmy was one of the best one-on-one bigs to ever play. He could score from the high post or low post with a variety of moves and counter moves that only Kevin McHale and the Dream could compete with.

David was the better outside shooter and finisher at the basket, but Timmy had the edge in footwork, low-post game, and passing. Bottom line: if you have 10 seconds to get a bucket in a half court set, you're giving the ball to #21 over almost any big in history.


Defense:

David gets the edge here because of his greater shot-blocking ability (can't teach being a natural lefty, and that second jump...holy hell) and ability to play passing lanes. He just covered so much ground on defense. However, it's a lot closer than people think. It's easy to forget, but in his prime Timmy was one of the best pick and roll defenders and rim protectors ever. He never had David's athletic ability, but his timing was every bit as good. Just watch how he blocks shots today against guys much stronger and more athletic than him time and time again while barely leaving the ground. It's all timing. Essentially, this comparison boils down to the fact that David was like Timmy on steroids on the defensive end, so he has to have the edge.


Overall:
David was KG before KG (just a better version in every way other than passing). Both players were transcendentally athletic and versatile freaks who revolutionized their respective positions, but they had the same weakness. Their styles were not conducive to dominating playoff basketball as a #1 option.

I personally think that Tim's advantage over David offensively is greater than David's advantage defensively, so I'm going with Timmy, but that's just an opinion.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

In some ways this debate is a little like arguing over "Awesome" and "Amazing"....which is better???




Discuss...

:cooldevil

[TDfan2007]

In some ways this debate is a little like arguing over "Awesome" and "Amazing"....which is better???




Discuss...

:cooldevil

Agreed :tu

[SilverSpur]

David Robinson over Tim Duncan easily.

[keeferob25]

Hakeem was overall more skilled than Duncan. David was overall more physically gifted than Duncan (tho I would argue that Duncan is no less skilled than David)...however Duncan truly does blow both away in terms of leadership, intangibles, and the cut throat competitiveness simpleton media figures seem to only bestow on beloved wing players like Jordan, Kobe, Bird etc. That is what has primarily separated Duncan from a more skilled player like Hakeem, or a more freakish athlete like Dave or the physical imposition of a Shaq. Duncan's greatest gift truly was/is between the ears.

[bic50]

Totally disagree that David was more talented than Duncan. More physically gifted, sure. More basketball talent? No fucking way. Guess the word talent is too ambiguous.

50 without his athleticism is a borderline NBA player. Duncan without athleticism is still a top 2 player on a championship contender.
Unless you're confusing David Robinson with Dwight Howard, this is one of the most ridiculous things Ive read in a while.

[100%duncan]

Tim.

/thread

[Keepin' it real]

We get a couple of reminders of Big Dave's greatness tomorrow on NBA TV:

1993 Portland at San Antonio game 4
Robinson triple double: 20 pts, 17 rebounds, 11 assists and 7 blocks for good measure!

1996 Phoenix at San Antonio game 2
Robinson: 40 pts, 21 rebounds, 3 blocks

[dweaver99027]

I remember that 96 game.. man, time flies...

[SPURt]

I'm seeing a lot of people here repeating the same things.

1) "David was more talented than Timmy"

What does talent entail? If what you're trying to say is that David was far more athletically gifted, then I agree. However, isn't skill encompassed by talent? Timmy was more skilled and coordinated than David, so doesn't that count?

2) "Timmy got destroyed by Amare, so he's not as good of a defender as David"

Yes, Amare went bananas in that series, but there are several reasons. First, Amare was a tremendous offensive player who set a Suns franchise record for most consective 20+ point games in the 07 playoffs (moving past Sir Charles in the process). Second, Timmy was hobbled in that 05 series and playing on 2 bad ankles. Not easy to guard an explosively athletic faceup player when you have 2 bum ankles. Finally, Amare scored a ton of points that series in pick and rolls, which has nothing to do with individual defense.


Now as for the actual comparison...

Offense:

David sometimes doesn't get his proper due as a scorer for whatever reason, but in his prime he was a scoring machine. David was a more prolific scorer than Timmy in the regular season, partly due to pace, but mostly due to the fact that he was just an athletic freak with a great faceup game and reliable mid-range J. The playoffs however, were a different story. David's efficiency would routinely drop from regular season to playoffs, as the slower tempo and more focused defenses took advantage of his lack of a broad and reliable post game. This is where Timmy's advantage comes to play. Timmy was one of the best one-on-one bigs to ever play. He could score from the high post or low post with a variety of moves and counter moves that only Kevin McHale and the Dream could compete with.

David was the better outside shooter and finisher at the basket, but Timmy had the edge in footwork, low-post game, and passing. Bottom line: if you have 10 seconds to get a bucket in a half court set, you're giving the ball to #21 over almost any big in history.


Defense:

David gets the edge here because of his greater shot-blocking ability (can't teach being a natural lefty, and that second jump...holy hell) and ability to play passing lanes. He just covered so much ground on defense. However, it's a lot closer than people think. It's easy to forget, but in his prime Timmy was one of the best pick and roll defenders and rim protectors ever. He never had David's athletic ability, but his timing was every bit as good. Just watch how he blocks shots today against guys much stronger and more athletic than him time and time again while barely leaving the ground. It's all timing. Essentially, this comparison boils down to the fact that David was like Timmy on steroids on the defensive end, so he has to have the edge.


Overall:
David was KG before KG (just a better version in every way other than passing). Both players were transcendentally athletic and versatile freaks who revolutionized their respective positions, but they had the same weakness. Their styles were not conducive to dominating playoff basketball as a #1 option.

I personally think that Tim's advantage over David offensively is greater than David's advantage defensively, so I'm going with Timmy, but that's just an opinion.

Great post! +∞

It's nice to be a Spurs fan...

[dweaver99027]

75% Timmy. Well, I guess that settles it.

[Sean Cagney]

We get a couple of reminders of Big Dave's greatness tomorrow on NBA TV:

1993 Portland at San Antonio game 4
Robinson triple double: 20 pts, 17 rebounds, 11 assists and 7 blocks for good measure!

1996 Phoenix at San Antonio game 2
Robinson: 40 pts, 21 rebounds, 3 blocks

That guy was a freak of damn nature in his prime. He could run the floor like a gazelle and jump out of the building. This is a C doing that.

[bic50]

75% Timmy. Well, I guess that settles it. Not really.

[dweaver99027]

It does for Spurstalk.

[Blackjack]

TDfan2007 with a solid post. Only take issue with the postseason argument.

If you think Amar'e was good in the postseason, imagine if Dave had a Nash.

Dave had shit for a supporting cast, in what most consider a Golden Age of basketball, in terms of All-Time players.

Unlike most of his contemporaries, he was forced to carry the end-game and postseason burden on his own. Hell, who else demanded a double on those teams? Teams could consistently leave one to two players alone without paying for it.

Dave's flaws are what most remember. But if that man had a Nash, a Ginobili?

History would reflect so much more kindly on his legacy - and my wallet (I've got every-single-one of his rookie cards).