Is the bench better or worse than last year's?

[Uriel]

Much has been made of the Spurs' sacrificing depth so they could make a splash in free agency. Some analysts have argued that the Spurs lost two of their biggest strengths in depth and chemistry when they gutted the team to acquire Aldridge.

But is our bench really that much worse than last year's?



Position
2014-2015
2015-2016


PG
Patty Mills, Cory Joseph
Patty Mills, Ray McCallum


SG
Manu Ginobili, Marco Bellinelli
Manu Ginobili, Jonathan Simmons


SF
Kyle Anderson
Kyle Anderson


PF
Boris Diaw, Matt Bonner, Jeff Ayres
Boris Diaw, David West, Matt Bonner


C
Aron Baynes
Boban Marjanovic



From a position-by-position analysis, it seems that on paper:


McCallum is a downgrade from CoJo.
Simmons is a downgrade from Bellinelli.
The fact that we no longer have Bellinelli means that we will likely have to give Anderson minutes at the 3, which is also a downgrade.
West will likely take Baynes' minutes at the 5 and is an upgrade over him.
Marjanovic is also slight upgrade over Baynes, and he'll be filling the Jeff Ayres / 6th big role.
Matt Bonner might actually see an improvement since he spent much of last season with a injured elbow. Being healthy could allow him to regain the three point shooting ability that made him an asset in certain matchups.


In summary: Our backcourt has gotten worse since we downgraded from CoJo and Bellinelli to McCallum and Simmons. Exchanging a proven veteran in Bellinelli with an unproven sophomore in Anderson is also a potential downgrade at the wing. However, we upgraded our frontcourt by replacing Baynes' minutes with West, adding Marjonovic (who is also better than Baynes) to play the sixth big role, and regaining a healthy Bonner.

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.

[Spurtacular]

You missed Jimmer.

[Mal]

You missed Mills being health all season long.

[tatteredprince]

McCallum >>>>>>> Cojo

Source: RC Buford, GM of the San Antonio Spurs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thispego]

Splitter

[thispego]

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.

lol what?

[From Downtown]

I trust Simmons,KA and Boban to be helpful and have a good season,and I'm not sure McCallum is that much of a downgrade from CoJo
Beli is a big loss as despite being useless on defense he could eat minutes from Manu and hit some timely shots
We shouldn't overlook the fact that we'll hopefully have an healthy Patty this season,even if CoJo played well we missed him a lot
West is obviously a big upgrade over Baynes,Ayres etc. he could be a starter in many teams
Still nearly everything depends on Manu and Boris,if they bounce back,and part of me expect them to do (especially Manu,as this might be his last chance to win a title),they'll be the biggest improvement over last season's bench,abd if they're able to find a good chemistry with the other guys asap this year's bench might be even better than last year's

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

CoJo > McCallum
Beli > Simmons, Anderson ( though expect fanboys to jump on this )
West > Baynes
Boban > Ayres

I'd say slightly better, as the West role is the most significant of these. Plus hopefully Anderson has improved. Plus health. Too many new faces though and if Manu isn't sharp as a distributor this 2nd unit might struggle.

[Spurtacular]

Sorry but McCallum is not better than CoJo.

[MaNu4Tres]

Much has been made of the Spurs' sacrificing depth so they could make a splash in free agency. Some analysts have argued that the Spurs lost two of their biggest strengths in depth and chemistry when they gutted the team to acquire Aldridge.

But is our bench really that much worse than last year's?



Position
2014-2015
2015-2016


PG
Patty Mills, Cory Joseph
Patty Mills, Ray McCallum


SG
Manu Ginobili, Marco Bellinelli
Manu Ginobili, Jonathan Simmons


SF
Kyle Anderson
Kyle Anderson


PF
Boris Diaw, Matt Bonner, Jeff Ayres
Boris Diaw, David West, Matt Bonner


C
Aron Baynes
Boban Marjanovic



From a position-by-position analysis, it seems that on paper:


McCallum is a downgrade from CoJo.
Simmons is a downgrade from Bellinelli.
The fact that we no longer have Bellinelli means that we will likely have to give Anderson minutes at the 3, which is also a downgrade.
West will likely take Baynes' minutes at the 5 and is an upgrade over him.
Marjanovic is also slight upgrade over Baynes, and he'll be filling the Jeff Ayres / 6th big role.
Matt Bonner might actually see an improvement since he spent much of last season with a injured elbow. Being healthy could allow him to regain the three point shooting ability that made him an asset in certain matchups.


In summary: Our backcourt has gotten worse since we downgraded from CoJo and Bellinelli to McCallum and Simmons. Exchanging a proven veteran in Bellinelli with an unproven sophomore in Anderson is also a potential downgrade at the wing. However, we upgraded our frontcourt by replacing Baynes' minutes with West, adding Marjonovic (who is also better than Baynes) to play the sixth big role, and regaining a healthy Bonner.

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.

Disagree with a few assessments.

1. As for the PG position: I'd argue that having a healthy and confident Patty Mills for the whole regular season + adding McCallum is a net improvement over last years back up point guard proposition. (Last year, Patty was out the 1st half of the season and it took him nearly the whole year to rediscover his game and confidence. This led Pop to playing Cojo a lot more than anticipated. Also, is anyone aware of how Ray ended his season last year? The young 24 year old point guard avg. 33 mpg for the month of April and averaged 12 points, 5 rbs, 4 assits an 2 steals while shooting 48% from the field and 44% from 3. As RC pointed out in a recent interview, he's actually an improvement over Joseph when it comes to actually running point guard and setting up the offense -- being a facilitator. I'd also argue he's a better scorer and three point shooter than Joseph. Taking all this about McCallum into account and also considering Patty being physically and mentally ready for the whole season is an improvement over last year's back up PG situation. I'd say Spurs improved in this area.

PG's of 15/16: Healthy Patty Mills, Ray McCallum > 14/15' Cory Joseph, Injured/Unconfident Patty Mills

2. As for the 4th wing spot: While Belinelli provided great three point shooting off the bench, I actually thought Belinelli's overall game regressed from the previous year. He wasn't as confident having the ball in PnR situations and didn't put the ball on the floor as effectively as he did in his first year as a Spur. While Simmons and Anderson are unproven, there's reasons to be optimistic about the two players.

They more than likely won't be the three point shooter Belinelli was, but they'll have a great chance being improvements over Belinelli in other areas of the game -- where Belinelli's weaknesses existed:

1. On ball Defense
2. Weak-side/Off-ball Defense
3. Transition defense
4. Better at defending/fighting through screens
5. Offensive Rebounding
6. Defensive Rebounding
7. Better creators off the dribble
8. Better finishers in the paint

It's not fair or objective to make a comparative assessment on this 4th wing spot in July when Simmons and Anderson have yet to step on the floor. What we do know is that Simmons and Anderson have a great chance at being improvements in many areas of the game as I listed above. We also know that the Spurs are very comfortable having Anderson/Simmons compete for Belinelli's role -- which is a great sign. This assessment should be more optimistic, yet inconclusive since its only July.

3. As for the front-court, Spurs improved immensely, as you implied. But you're missing a few key points.

LaMarcus is not only replacing Splitter and his minutes (20mpg), he's also replacing majority of Baynes' minutes as well (16 mpg). LaMarcus taking up the minutes of two players in competitive games makes you realize how much deeper the Spurs actually are in the front-court. Aldridge will be the consistent work horse for the front court -- playing the most minutes night in and night out. Duncan will see the second most minutes and close games with LaMarcus but with the addition of David West, Pop will be able to rest him more than usual.

[BillMc]

Sorry but McCallum is not better than CoJo.

RC said at Summer League he believes McCallum will run the offense better than CoJo. Whether that's just spin, or encouragement to McCallum I don't know but RC is not the type to say things just fill space in an interview. We'll see how it turns out.

[keepinitwill]

As somebody said, Mills being healthy is the key. Overall I think we a better. I think Anderson and Simmons will pleasantly suprise us.

[playbonner15]

Downgrade. These new bums still need to learn the system. Its not like you can just plug them in and then they'll immediately work. Its gonna take a season at least. Hopefully by the time the playoffs are here, everybody's healthy and clickin

[hater]

We still have a deep roster probably better than last year

[AFBlue]

On paper, they're certainly thinner or less proven than last year in the backcourt. That puts more onus on Parker, Mills and Ginobili to carry the load, but it's also possible one of the new additions could surprise, be it McCallum, Jimmer or Simmons.

[tmtcsc]

I don't think Jimmer's making the team.

[313]

What is cojo better at than McCallum?

[RD2191]

Lol. Faggots thinking scruballum is better than cojo.

[ginobilized]

I don't look at this as a player vs. player transition

We have lost some corporate knowledge, 3 pt shooting and backcourt defense

We have gained front court offense, front court defense, and backcourt offense
I think we are as deep as last year's squad and our newly added mid-range game will make this team very tough to guard. Teams will either have to give up the paint, mid-range or 3 pt line.
Our starting unit was very inconsistent last season as well. If this year's starters can live up to their potential, the bench will flourish.

[ceperez]

RC said at Summer League he believes McCallum will run the offense better than CoJo. Whether that's just spin, or encouragement to McCallum I don't know but RC is not the type to say things just fill space in an interview. We'll see how it turns out.

I'll trust RC assesment over anybody in this board.

[SPURt]

What a weird thread. What if we had this discussion before ever seeing CoJo, Beli, Ayers, and Baynes in silver and black? I'd like to see how Pop utilizes the new pieces. We don't even know for sure Simmons and Anderson are going to be the replacement for Beli's production. Of the four players that left: CoJo and Baynes over achieved, Beli was right around what he should've been, and Ayers pretty much took the Spurs money from their cap, put it on the floor, dumped gasoline on it, set it a blaze, then peed on it to put out the flames.

With that said, the Mormons are coming...
https://touchmyculture.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/jimmer.jpg

[AFBlue]

McCallum >>>>>>> Cojo

Source: RC Buford, GM of the San Antonio Spurs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He didn't say that tbqh. He said McCallum is ahead of where Cory was at the same stage of their respective careers. Keep in mind, Cory was a full two years younger in his second year in the league. RC did day that he thought Ray could run a team more effectively, but that's not the only measure of value.

I think the biggest gap between the two players is defensively, where CoJo is by far the more impressive player. In no way do I think they are comparable players, but fortunately I don't think they have to be. As others have stated, a healthy Parker and Mills combo makes the third string PG position a much less needed quantity.

[AFBlue]

What is cojo better at than McCallum?

Defense and offensive scoring efficiency.

[AFBlue]

I don't think Jimmer's making the team.

If he shoots well enough, he will. The Spurs value shooting and floor spacers (see: Bonner, Matt), and that's definitively Jimmer's strength. They also have a hole in that role with the departure of Beli. If Jimmer can prove reliable enough to make open shots in the system, I think he sticks.

[Kikoluna]

A bit weaker. Cojo leaving will hurt. Who knows how the ray kid will play or the giant for that matter. David west will be huge. Kyle, I'm afraid, will get significant minutes and that will hurt as well. Overall, a bit weaker.

[Kikoluna]

If he shoots well enough, he will. The Spurs value shooting and floor spacers (see: Bonner, Matt), and that's definitively Jimmer's strength. They also have a hole in that role with the departure of Beli. If Jimmer can prove reliable enough to make open shots in the system, I think he sticks.
Yes, I agree with you. It amazes how many people here assume he will be gone or just dismiss him. The guy is a great shooter. With the spurs elite ball movement, Jimmer should provide some big 3's a la bonner.

[jsandiego]

The back court assessment is a wash, or incomplete. We will likely miss Beli's shooting, but we'll enjoy the hustle and defense the new guys bring. It remains to be seen how a healthy Patty + McCallum/Simmons will compare to last year.

The front court is immensely improved:
1. LMA steps into Duncan's role from last year, and will be able to do it for more minutes per night.
2. Duncan takes over Splitter's spot. The PnR defense will suffer but the rim protection, ability to create shots, health, and all the other intangibles Duncan brings means this is an upgrade, even at Duncan's age.
3. We lost Baynes and got David West for the price of a #2 at Whataburger. This is such an upgrade I don't even know how to describe it.
4. Bonner is still Bonner, but will not be required to contribute when it matters. He's essentially a baseball middle reliever -- eating up innings during the regular season.
5. Diaw is Diaw.

Kyle Anderson has a year under his belt, and should be better than he was last year.

We're looking good.

[look_at_g_shred]

Jury is still out. This question may be better asked when the season ends.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm not sure why so many folks were so sold on Cojo. He did a decent job as a 3rd string point. He could go hard to the basket and became a better shooter, but he didn't do a great job running the offense...in fact the team would usually become more stagnant on that side of the ball when he was on the floor. I don't see that losing him was a huge hit. Belinelli was a bigger loss, in my mind, as he gave Manu some much needed regular season relief and allowed him to stay fresh for the '14 title run.

McCallum v. Cojo will be a wash, West will be huge with the second unit, hopefully Anderson will exhibit some growth, and if Simmons can emerge the second unit should be better.

[Keepin' it real]

RC said at Summer League he believes McCallum will run the offense better than CoJo.

Did you really expect RC to say "McCallum is a significant downgrade. He doesn't know the offense and has a losing attitude from his days in Sacramento. He will run the offense worse -- much, much worse. But what they hell, right? We already won one for the thumb, so we good. See you guys back at the Bellagio."

[gambit1990]

really interested to see how simmons will play on the nba level.

[ceperez]

I'm not sure why so many folks were so sold on Cojo. He did a decent job as a 3rd string point. He could go hard to the basket and became a better shooter, but he didn't do a great job running the offense...in fact the team would usually become more stagnant on that side of the ball when he was on the floor. I don't see that losing him was a huge hit. Belinelli was a bigger loss, in my mind, as he gave Manu some much needed regular season relief and allowed him to stay fresh for the '14 title run.

McCallum v. Cojo will be a wash, West will be huge with the second unit, hopefully Anderson will exhibit some growth, and if Simmons can emerge the second unit should be better.

I agree with you here.... too many people have this delusion that Cojo was a really good player. No he wasn't! He wasn't even in the rotation last year despite Parker being injured. Better to play an injured Parker than have a healthy Cojo play. Cojo was a scrub who's only claim to fame is that dunk against Ibaka during a blowout.

Someone will need to relieve Manu and right now the only player that fits that bill is a rookie named Simmons.

[ceperez]

A bit weaker. Cojo leaving will hurt. Who knows how the ray kid will play or the giant for that matter. David west will be huge. Kyle, I'm afraid, will get significant minutes and that will hurt as well. Overall, a bit weaker.

Cojo leaving will hurt????? Cojo wasn't even in the rotation come playoff time. Talk about overrated!

[tbdog]

The biggest reason why I believe this bench is better than last years is because of the Aldridge signing. Splitter started and played 20mins a game in the regular season on 52 games played. His playoffs mins was at 19mins.

LMA played 35mins on 71 games played, and his minutes jumped to 41.6mins in the playoffs.

Going by the regular season only, that is a 15min difference. Even if LMA mins drop to 32mins in the regular season and Duncan drops down to 25mins, that still a 10 min difference, where Diaw and West are playing with the second unit and not as much with the first unit.

[ceperez]

Did you really expect RC to say "McCallum is a significant downgrade. He doesn't know the offense and has a losing attitude from his days in Sacramento. He will run the offense worse -- much, much worse. But what they hell, right? We already won one for the thumb, so we good. See you guys back at the Bellagio."

He would tell you his opinion, and its basically very simple.... McCallum was a steal.

[ceperez]

The biggest reason why I believe this bench is better than last years is because of the Aldridge signing. Splitter started and played 20mins a game in the regular season on 52 games played. His playoffs mins was at 19mins.

LMA played 35mins on 71 games played, and his minutes jumped to 41.6mins in the playoffs.

Going by the regular season only, that is a 15min difference. Even if LMA mins drop to 32mins in the regular season and Duncan drops down to 25mins, that still a 10 min difference, where Diaw and West are playing with the second unit and not as much with the first unit.

There's value in the bench preserving players in the regular season, but almost any scrub in the NBA could do that. Even if the Spurs lost because of those rest days, Spurs will still make the playoffs.

The only criteria here is determining who will be playing in the playoff rotation.

Last year's bench had 2 players, Belinelli and Baynes. Baynes was there because Splitter was injured, but if he wasn't, then Baynes wouldn't be in rotation. So really only 1 guy in the rotation left the team. ONE PLAYER!

How about this year, the additional player is David West who absolutely will be in the rotation. Come playoff time, will West be more valuable than Belinelli? ABSOLUTELY.

[tbdog]

There's value in the bench preserving players in the regular season, but almost any scrub in the NBA could do that. Even if the Spurs lost because of those rest days, Spurs will still make the playoffs.

The only criteria here is determining who will be playing in the playoff rotation.

Last year's bench had 2 players, Belinelli and Baynes. Baynes was there because Splitter was injured, but if he wasn't, then Baynes wouldn't be in rotation. So really only 1 guy in the rotation left the team. ONE PLAYER!

How about this year, the additional player is David West who absolutely will be in the rotation. Come playoff time, will West be more valuable than Belinelli? ABSOLUTELY.

You forgot about Manu and Mills.

Anyway, yes in the playoffs you want a 8 man rotation with a 9th man as a specialist. Usually backup point, swing, and big. At this stage West, Diaw, Mills, and Manu round out a 9 players.

[dweaver99027]

True. But a better performing bench could be the difference between a 2 seed and a 6 seed.

[Old School 44]

Much has been made of the Spurs' sacrificing depth so they could make a splash in free agency. Some analysts have argued that the Spurs lost two of their biggest strengths in depth and chemistry when they gutted the team to acquire Aldridge.

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.

I wouldn't say we gutted the bench. To me the key bench players last year were Manu, Boris, Patty and maybe Bellinelli, then Joseph. The Spurs bench this year will be better. I think it has the potential to be outstanding. One of our best benches ever.

[Kidd K]

Can't help but wonder if OP is at least partially trolling. Corey Joseph and Marco Belinelli were not that great of players. Joseph was serviceable but not impactful and Belinelli could barely do anything but shoot the damn ball and he was streaky as hell with that anyway. His defense was atrocious and he was sloppy with the ball in his hands. NOT a big loss imo. We have barely downgraded there if at all. With Parker and Mills hopefully healthier this year, we will not even need a 3rd PG for anything but garbage time. I realize McCallum will be worse than CoJo. . .but this is solely because he had 4 years to fit in. 3rd string PG isn't going to be a major role unless someone gets hurt.

And yeah, let's not act like David West's massive addition is in any way just equalizing going from CoJo and Belinelli to two new people. Having both West and Ginobili off the bench is hilarious and overpowered. Not to mention Diaw, Mills, and a 7'4" center. :lmao

All we "lost" was a 3rd stringer and a defensive turnstile. We gained David West and a7'4" euroleague center. And as someone else already said, Aldridge will be playing more minutes than Splitter so our frontcourt rotation will be nothing short of back-breaking for any opponent. Duncan, Aldridge, Leonard, West, Diaw, Boban. lol.

We have the best bench in the league.

[HarlemHeat37]

The "gutted the team" narrative is mostly from fans and media trying to fabricate flaws for the team, tbh..

I don't know why Spurs fans listen to non-Spurs fans and media that watched like 12 Spurs games last year, tbh:lol..never going to understand sports fans and their need for approval..

[AFBlue]

He would tell you his opinion, and its basically very simple.... McCallum was a steal.

Good value relative to his contract does not equate to being better than CoJo though.

[spursince#99]

The "gutted the team" narrative is mostly from fans and media trying to fabricate flaws for the team, tbh..

I don't know why Spurs fans listen to non-Spurs fans and media that watched like 12 Spurs games last year, tbh:lol..never going to understand sports fans and their need for approval..


THIS!!!

[313]

The "gutted the team" narrative is mostly from fans and media trying to fabricate flaws for the team, tbh..

I don't know why Spurs fans listen to non-Spurs fans and media that watched like 12 Spurs games last year, tbh:lol..never going to understand sports fans and their need for approval..

:lol antiquated Spurs fans

[313]

The "gutted the team" narrative is mostly from fans and media trying to fabricate flaws for the team, tbh..

I don't know why Spurs fans listen to non-Spurs fans and media that watched like 12 Spurs games last year, tbh:lol..never going to understand sports fans and their need for approval..

:lol antiquated Spurs fans

[AFBlue]

I agree with you here.... too many people have this delusion that Cojo was a really good player. No he wasn't! He wasn't even in the rotation last year despite Parker being injured. Better to play an injured Parker than have a healthy Cojo play. Cojo was a scrub who's only claim to fame is that dunk against Ibaka during a blowout.

Someone will need to relieve Manu and right now the only player that fits that bill is a rookie named Simmons.

:lol wasn't even in the rotation

He started 14 games, averaged 18MPG and had the fourth highest Win Shares on the team last year. He played much more than a typical third string PG, and that's why he got handsomely rewarded in the offseason with an above-MLE deal. I agree his assist rate leaves much to be desired, but he scored at a very efficient rate and played solid defense.

Again, I'm not saying Ray needs to be that caliber of player with Parker and Mills at 100%. But the peeps on here criminally under rating the production CoJo delivered when thrust into a starting role need to be corrected tbqh.

[KL2]

-Simmons & Anderson>>>Beli

Just by losing Beli, the Spurs get immediately better. Every positive thing he did on offense was completely cancelled out by his defense, without him the Spurs would've gotten the 2nd seed last year. He gave up numerous rebounds, blew his defensive assignment and his help defense was also a failure, he was responsible for so many blown leads last year.


-West-Marjanovic>>>>Baynes-Ayres

West is a starter quality player and started the 66-66 games he played last year, now he's going to be coming off the bench, playing against bench players on our very talented bench. IND relied on him way too much, without Hill and George the defense focused more on him making the game harder, and without those two players he lacked play makers to get him quality shots causing his offense to suffer. It's a massive upgrade, especially in the playoffs where Baynes rarely played.
Marjanovic>Ayres, I don't even need to go into that.


-McCallum is probably just as good, if not better than Cojo.

As the season went on the game started slowing down for McCallum, he started to learn from his mistakes and became much more productive. Under Karl he averaged 11ppg, 4.4 assists, and 3.4 rebounds in 29 MPG, with a very low turnover rate. This 3rd year, SA is getting a much more polished version of Ray thanks to SAC doing all of the dirty work for us.

The minutes played by Splitter and Baynes were also very low. Lamarcus averaged 35 last year, Splitter just 20. West averaged 28 last year, Baynes 15. We can keep these guys on the court much longer.

[Hoops Czar]

He didn't say that tbqh. He said McCallum is ahead of where Cory was at the same stage of their respective careers. Keep in mind, Cory was a full two years younger in his second year in the league. RC did day that he thought Ray could run a team more effectively, but that's not the only measure of value.

I think the biggest gap between the two players is defensively, where CoJo is by far the more impressive player. In no way do I think they are comparable players, but fortunately I don't think they have to be. As others have stated, a healthy Parker and Mills combo makes the third string PG position a much less needed quantity.

:lol So suddenly Mills is a point guard? That's news to me. The only thing Mills can do remotely better than Cory is shoot, sometimes. If Manu wasn't running the back up PG position, the second unit would be total chaos. Parker, looking like garbage the last two seasons and Ginobili being 37 doesn't bode well for a 2 point guard system. McCallum is a homeless man's CoJo and Jimmer is just homeless. There is no back up plan in place. This organization is putting a lot of stock into a Parker resurgence and a bunch of NBA unknowns. If it doesn't work out, The PATFO will be the one holding the bag, not the players.

[AFBlue]

The "gutted the team" narrative is mostly from fans and media trying to fabricate flaws for the team, tbh..

I don't know why Spurs fans listen to non-Spurs fans and media that watched like 12 Spurs games last year, tbh:lol..never going to understand sports fans and their need for approval..

Right. It'll be a drummed up talking point for nationally televised games to eat up a good 10 minutes of air time between plays. Nothing of aubstance actually to it tbqh.

[JeffDuncan]

We have the best bench in the league.

+1

[PrimeMinister]

:lol So suddenly Mills is a point guard? That's news to me. The only thing Mills can do remotely better than Cory is shoot, sometimes. If Manu wasn't running the back up PG position, the second unit would be total chaos. Parker, looking like garbage the last two seasons and Ginobili being 37 doesn't bode well for a 2 point guard system. McCallum is a homeless man's CoJo and Jimmer is just homeless. There is no back up plan in place. This organization is putting a lot of stock into a Parker resurgence and a bunch of NBA unknowns. If it doesn't work out, The PATFO will be the one holding the bag, not the players.

How much hyperbole can you put in one comment? Ray had a great ending to last year, is young, and will only improve in this system. Mills as well can still improve, is a hard worker, and very coachable. If he can make an entry pass to LMA a few times a game we will be alright. Tony will have far less offensive burden this year, and we have so many playmakers from the non point position, that implying the FO is depending on tony is asinine.

[cjw]

LaMarcus is not only replacing Splitter and his minutes (20mpg), he's also replacing majority of Baynes' minutes as well (16 mpg)

This - you have to essentially factor in Lamarcus sopping up 15 bench minutes for it to be apples to apples. During the season, the addition of West will mean that there will not only be nights off for Duncan but Aldridge won't be ground down during the regular season.

In terms of playoffs, the rotation over 7 games averaged (removing the one OT to keep apples to apples) the following ... all of those end of bench minutes + Splitter now get sopped up by Aldridge. West takes minutes to take some of load off Duncan/Parker. All of this is assuming people are healthy.



Last Year


This Year



Duncan
35.0

Duncan
33.0


Leonard
35.0

Leonard
35.0


Parker
30.0

Parker
28.0


Green
28.4

Green
30.0


Diaw
27.6

Diaw
24.0


Ginobili
18.7

Ginobili
16.0


Splitter
17.6

Aldridge
35.0


Belinelli
16.6

West
15.0


Mills
15.3

Mills
18.0


Baynes
5.7

Other 6
6.0


Bonner
5.1





Joseph
3.3





Ayres
1.7

[SAGirl]

Much has been made of the Spurs' sacrificing depth so they could make a splash in free agency. Some analysts have argued that the Spurs lost two of their biggest strengths in depth and chemistry when they gutted the team to acquire Aldridge.

But is our bench really that much worse than last year's?



Position
2014-2015
2015-2016


PG
Patty Mills, Cory Joseph
Patty Mills, Ray McCallum


SG
Manu Ginobili, Marco Bellinelli
Manu Ginobili, Jonathan Simmons


SF
Kyle Anderson
Kyle Anderson


PF
Boris Diaw, Matt Bonner, Jeff Ayres
Boris Diaw, David West, Matt Bonner


C
Aron Baynes
Boban Marjanovic



From a position-by-position analysis, it seems that on paper:


McCallum is a downgrade from CoJo.
Simmons is a downgrade from Bellinelli.
The fact that we no longer have Bellinelli means that we will likely have to give Anderson minutes at the 3, which is also a downgrade.
West will likely take Baynes' minutes at the 5 and is an upgrade over him.
Marjanovic is also slight upgrade over Baynes, and he'll be filling the Jeff Ayres / 6th big role.
Matt Bonner might actually see an improvement since he spent much of last season with a injured elbow. Being healthy could allow him to regain the three point shooting ability that made him an asset in certain matchups.


In summary: Our backcourt has gotten worse since we downgraded from CoJo and Bellinelli to McCallum and Simmons. Exchanging a proven veteran in Bellinelli with an unproven sophomore in Anderson is also a potential downgrade at the wing. However, we upgraded our frontcourt by replacing Baynes' minutes with West, adding Marjonovic (who is also better than Baynes) to play the sixth big role, and regaining a healthy Bonner.

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.
Good analysis. I don't consider Boban an upgrade over Baynes for basically the same reason you don't consider Anderson an upgrade over Belinelli. Both Baynes and Belinelli were proven to work well within their role for the team. Boban and Anderson are new, but honestly potentially better. Belinelli was important for his shooting and the spacing he provided, but Anderson rebounds better and any of Simmons or Anderson will be better than Belinelli on defense TBH. Anderson has made progress on his defense and is capable of using his length to recover into plays that Beli was simply screened out of entirely. Simmons is a lot more athletic than either and capable of hustle plays. It may end up being a positive over Beli with either of these two guys, there is a question however, in that they are unproven.

Baynes got better as the season went along and got the bulk of the Splitter minutes TBH and the team did OK with him. West is a much better player than him though, so overall between West and Boban I think we will be ok.

If we dont have to start Bonner for about 20 games like last year or play him over 20 minutes at a time, due to Splitter's issues, that in itself will be an upgrade. We honestly missed Tiago, the real Tiago all of last year, he missed half the season, a third of it was on minutes restrictions, out of shape/conditioning and playing poorly. When he played well, he made a difference, but he could not be relied on. Splitter out, hopefully a healthy frontcourt means less minutes for Bonner.

Overall, I'd say we improved. The real question mark will be the Simmons/Anderson combo, and I think they will play well.

[Mikeanaro]

Maybe but overall Spurs are a better team now.

[ginobilized]

The lineup options with the new players looks very interesting, especially in small ball situations.
I can see the potential of
Mills, McCallum, Ginobili, Anderson and Diaw for crazy ball movement.....what other team has 3 elite passers on their second unit?
It's all speculation, of course. But it looks promising on the internet.

[JeffDuncan]

This - you have to essentially factor in Lamarcus sopping up 15 bench minutes for it to be apples to apples. During the season, the addition of West will mean that there will not only be nights off for Duncan but Aldridge won't be ground down during the regular season.

In terms of playoffs, the rotation over 7 games averaged (removing the one OT to keep apples to apples) the following ... all of those end of bench minutes + Splitter now get sopped up by Aldridge. West takes minutes to take some of load off Duncan/Parker. All of this is assuming people are healthy.



Last Year


This Year



Duncan
35.0

Duncan
33.0


Leonard
35.0

Leonard
35.0


Parker
30.0

Parker
28.0


Green
28.4

Green
30.0


Diaw
27.6

Diaw
24.0


Ginobili
18.7

Ginobili
16.0


Splitter
17.6

Aldridge
35.0


Belinelli
16.6

West
15.0


Mills
15.3

Mills
18.0


Baynes
5.7

Other 6
6.0


Bonner
5.1





Joseph
3.3





Ayres
1.7







You show 15 minutes for West, just thought I'd mention his average last year was 28.7 minutes per game. If the Spurs need to play him 30 minutes per game, with occasional rest, they can do so fearlessly. He's been playing 30 minutes or more per game for 10 years.

[Mr Bones]

The jury's still out on McCallum, but last season his numbers improved every month, with April being by far his best-- that's, at the very least, a good sign: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2528447/ray-mccallum

Joseph's D is better, but McCallum's ability and willingness to shoot threes is a big plus. Joseph's stats look more efficient, but he also played for a much better and more efficient team. I'd say that McCallum looked more willing to run a team by the end of last season, whereas confidence/tentativeness sometimes seemed like one of Joseph's issues...

[palangi]

Hey I liked CoJo and what he brought to the team and the improvements he made while a Spur. But damn some of you make him out to be some end all be all of the bench. And I guarantee that a lot of you that are sucking his balls right now are the same ones that used to rip the shit out of him too.

[SAGirl]

The jury's still out on McCallum, but last season his numbers improved every month, with April being by far his best-- that's, at the very least, a good sign: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2528447/ray-mccallum

Joseph's D is better, but McCallum's ability and willingness to shoot threes is a big plus. Joseph's stats look more efficient, but he also played for a much better and more efficient team. I'd say that McCallum looked more willing to run a team by the end of last season, whereas confidence/tentativeness sometimes seemed like one of Joseph's issues...
I agree with you on all this. If CoJo played on the Kings of last year, with all the upheaval and head coach changes they went through, and his role ever changing, I doubt he would have played as well as he did. I think McCallum will be ok for his role, and might be better in a better system than he was last year for the Kings.

[AFBlue]

:lol So suddenly Mills is a point guard? That's news to me. The only thing Mills can do remotely better than Cory is shoot, sometimes. If Manu wasn't running the back up PG position, the second unit would be total chaos. Parker, looking like garbage the last two seasons and Ginobili being 37 doesn't bode well for a 2 point guard system. McCallum is a homeless man's CoJo and Jimmer is just homeless. There is no back up plan in place. This organization is putting a lot of stock into a Parker resurgence and a bunch of NBA unknowns. If it doesn't work out, The PATFO will be the one holding the bag, not the players.

I'm not as pessimistic as you, but I said as much in my initial take...that the backcourt is thinner and will put the onus on Parker, Mills and Ginobili to carry the load.

[Spurtacular]

RC said at Summer League he believes McCallum will run the offense better than CoJo. Whether that's just spin, or encouragement to McCallum I don't know but RC is not the type to say things just fill space in an interview. We'll see how it turns out.

He's probably speaking to RM dribbling less and the ball moving better. So, in that sense you could argue RM as being better. But just by skills, Cory is a bit better, imo.

[TD 21]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.

[Nathan89]

Simmons makes our bench better this year.

[Uriel]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.
Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

[Spurtacular]

Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

Based on Timmy taking 20 games off alone, I imagine the Spurs want Boban to play some significant minutes.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Simmons makes our bench better this year.

Simmons is unproven

lol socialist fagg:lolt

[SAGirl]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.
I think only Anderson will eliminate himself out. He will get chances to prove himself and also will be coached to improve. Spurs did not get a true backup SF other than him. Simmons can defend but his game and size is more of a SG. He is closer to 6'4 barefoot than 6'5 and does not have lengthy arms. Spurs played him in SL and in the D'league as a SG and sometimes as a PG (when Cotton was picked up by the Jazz), never as a SF. That was revealing to me. If the Spurs picked up a backup SF it would have to be a veteran that would not mind losing minutes to Anderson. If he breaks out like the Spurs hope he will, that vet will not play. It is one of the main reasons I think the Spurs were unable to pick up a backup SF in the vet bargain bin market.

Nobody wants to look at that aspect, but Anderson has improved and played really well. Rookies are known to struggle in their first year just in a general sense, not just him. Its likely he will be much better this year, and if he is, whoever else is in the 5th or a 6th wing has to be okay with that. Simmons is versatile and you can play him together with Anderson when Manu sits which makes it an even better fit in this roster. But make no mistake, Anderson will play.

[steeledl]

Simmons is unproven

lol socialist fagg:lolt

only faggots doubt Simmons , cock sucker .

[cjw]

You show 15 minutes for West, just thought I'd mention his average last year was 28.7 minutes per game. If the Spurs need to play him 30 minutes per game, with occasional rest, they can do so fearlessly. He's been playing 30 minutes or more per game for 10 years.

I was talking playoffs. Assumption is he plays well in excess of 15 during the season. Issue is if Duncan and Aldridge combine for 35+33=68, you only have 28 minutes to split between Diaw and West unless Diaw plays the 3 against second units with a guy you can hide him on D.

[szkorhetz]

Why didn't we sign Mbah Moute? He is a nice 3&D player, long, athletic and can play 3 positions. He would be perfect in the second unit and was agreed to the vet min in Sacramento before they vetoed the signing..

[timtonymanu]

I'm not even going to hype up McCallum or other 3rd stringers that other Spurs fans seem to be overrating already.

But I do think our bench has potential to be even better than last season, no question.

Manu, healthy Patty, Diaw, West >>> Manu, injured Patty, Diaw, Baynes

If Simmons or Anderson turn out to be anything special, it shouldn't be hard for them to match Beli's production or even be better than him.

[timtonymanu]

Lol. Faggots thinking scruballum is better than cojo.

He and Fredette have been vastly overrated on here.

:lol a 30 page thread for Jimmer

[AFBlue]

Why didn't we sign Mbah Moute? He is a nice 3&D player, long, athletic and can play 3 positions. He would be perfect in the second unit and was agreed to the vet min in Sacramento before they vetoed the signing..

No. His career 3P% is sub 30% and last year was the first time he even averaged more than a single attempt per game. His range has always been limited to 18ft since the day he came into the league. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be of value defensively, but to slap a "3&D" label on him would be wrong tbqh.

[Obstructed_View]

What is cojo better at than McCallum?

Defense.

End of list.

[TD 21]

Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

Not with four top three caliber bigs ahead of him.

If the West-Diaw combination's lack of rim protection/defensive rebounding becomes a major issue, as I said, Pop would probably work the rotation so that at least one of Duncan or Aldridge played almost every meaningful minute, especially for the games that matter most.



I think only Anderson will eliminate himself out. He will get chances to prove himself and also will be coached to improve. Spurs did not get a true backup SF other than him. Simmons can defend but his game and size is more of a SG. He is closer to 6'4 barefoot than 6'5 and does not have lengthy arms. Spurs played him in SL and in the D'league as a SG and sometimes as a PG (when Cotton was picked up by the Jazz), never as a SF. That was revealing to me. If the Spurs picked up a backup SF it would have to be a veteran that would not mind losing minutes to Anderson. If he breaks out like the Spurs hope he will, that vet will not play. It is one of the main reasons I think the Spurs were unable to pick up a backup SF in the vet bargain bin market.

Nobody wants to look at that aspect, but Anderson has improved and played really well. Rookies are known to struggle in their first year just in a general sense, not just him. Its likely he will be much better this year, and if he is, whoever else is in the 5th or a 6th wing has to be okay with that. Simmons is versatile and you can play him together with Anderson when Manu sits which makes it an even better fit in this roster. But make no mistake, Anderson will play.

Anderson will get a chance early, but if he's not ready, good enough or doesn't fit well enough, the eventual move (Simmons could get a look beforehand; he's definitely not an SF, but if Belinelli and Ginobili can get away with defending it in certain match-ups, he should be able to, too) might be to shoehorn Diaw into being a combo forward, since it could kill two birds with one stone.

I doubt them not picking up a veteran SF was because those players were/are unwilling; it's more than likely because they don't like any enough to give them a guaranteed contract. Plus, they want to give Anderson and maybe even Simmons a look before they go shopping in the bargain bin. The types of names presumably under consideration have to be amendable to not playing, since most will be lucky to get another job in the league, let alone on a contender.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

What is cojo better at than McCallum?
Dunking over Ibola, tbh... that's about it.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Defense and offensive scoring efficiency.
Can't use analytics to justify Cujo > McCallum, tbh... Cujo played for the Spurs while McCallum played for the Kings. Many of Cujo's minutes came with guys like Manu, Boris, Patty etc on the court... offensive wizards. Cujo was the guy that plugged up the offense because he couldn't shoot and his one-on-one scoring ability was limited to beating big ol' stiffs off the dribble, or else having to step back and take a horrible fadeaway or just passing it back to a competent playmaker. Cujo's defense was pretty good, I'll give you that, but he wasn't Andre Miller, i.e. his defense and playmaking was not good enough to make up for his lack of shooting and scoring ability (Miller also had that strangely efficient post game for a point guard and was the best alley-oop passer in the sport).

[AFBlue]

Can't use analytics to justify Cujo > McCallum, tbh... Cujo played for the Spurs while McCallum played for the Kings. Many of Cujo's minutes came with guys like Manu, Boris, Patty etc on the court... offensive wizards. Cujo was the guy that plugged up the offense because he couldn't shoot and his one-on-one scoring ability was limited to beating big ol' stiffs off the dribble, or else having to step back and take a horrible fadeaway or just passing it back to a competent playmaker. Cujo's defense was pretty good, I'll give you that, but he wasn't Andre Miller, i.e. his defense and playmaking was not good enough to make up for his lack of shooting and scoring ability (Miller also had that strangely efficient post game for a point guard and was the best alley-oop passer in the sport).

CoJo shot over 50% from the field, over 45% from mid-range and over 36% from 3. While the last number isn't great, here's the comparison to McCallum....less than 44% from the field, less than 33% from mid-range and less than 31% from 3.

You can blame some of his shooting woes on the "Kings" effect, but I don't see how you come to the conclusion he's better when those glaring stats are staring you in the face.

[Buddy Holly]

Cory Joseph hardly played. Are you dimwits rewriting history?

[Spurtacular]

He and Fredette have been vastly overrated on here.

:lol a 30 page thread for Jimmer

You're undeserving of the treasure you've came into.

[Brazil]

we basically lost Cojo, Beli and Baynes and we got Boban and West :lol not sure how it is even a question

[AFBlue]

we basically lost Cojo, Beli and Baynes and we got Boban and West :lol not sure how it is even a question

Based on that response I honestly have no idea which way you're leaning. You're insinuating there's no question, but nothing of what you wrote is really telling. Thank you though for your statements of fact. BTW, you forgot McCallum, Jimmer and Simmons in the backcourt.

[Brazil]

Based on that response I honestly have no idea which way you're leaning. You're insinuating there's no question, but nothing of what you wrote is really telling. Thank you though for your statements of fact. BTW, you forgot McCallum, Jimmer and Simmons in the backcourt.

I also forgot Ayres thanks for pointing it out

West acquisition by itself would be enough to be an upgrade over losing Cojo, Beli and Baynes, you add Boban + Mc, Jimmer and Simmons... I'd say our bench is fine

[dweaver99027]

Thinner than 2015 or not, Mills/Gino/Boris/West is a hell of a playoff bench unit.

[AFBlue]

I also forgot Ayres thanks for pointing it out

West acquisition by itself would be enough to be an upgrade over losing Cojo, Beli and Baynes, you add Boban + Mc, Jimmer and Simmons... I'd say our bench is fine

Gotcha. But the question was about depth in general. West, in and of himself, can't plug the holes in the backcourt. CoJo and Beli were big contributors to the bench, so the Spurs have to address those losses somehow. I also think they'll be fine, but not just because of West.

[ceperez]

I think only Anderson will eliminate himself out. He will get chances to prove himself and also will be coached to improve. Spurs did not get a true backup SF other than him. Simmons can defend but his game and size is more of a SG. He is closer to 6'4 barefoot than 6'5 and does not have lengthy arms. Spurs played him in SL and in the D'league as a SG and sometimes as a PG (when Cotton was picked up by the Jazz), never as a SF. That was revealing to me. If the Spurs picked up a backup SF it would have to be a veteran that would not mind losing minutes to Anderson. If he breaks out like the Spurs hope he will, that vet will not play. It is one of the main reasons I think the Spurs were unable to pick up a backup SF in the vet bargain bin market.

Nobody wants to look at that aspect, but Anderson has improved and played really well. Rookies are known to struggle in their first year just in a general sense, not just him. Its likely he will be much better this year, and if he is, whoever else is in the 5th or a 6th wing has to be okay with that. Simmons is versatile and you can play him together with Anderson when Manu sits which makes it an even better fit in this roster. But make no mistake, Anderson will play.

Simmons is about the same size as Danny Green but lower reach. He's best as a SG.

I want to see KA succeed despite his athletic short comings. He however has a wingspan that almost as wide as Leonard.

[ceperez]

Why didn't we sign Mbah Moute? He is a nice 3&D player, long, athletic and can play 3 positions. He would be perfect in the second unit and was agreed to the vet min in Sacramento before they vetoed the signing..

3 and D??? Career .299 at the 3 point line, I don't think so.

[ceperez]

CoJo shot over 50% from the field, over 45% from mid-range and over 36% from 3. While the last number isn't great, here's the comparison to McCallum....less than 44% from the field, less than 33% from mid-range and less than 31% from 3.

You can blame some of his shooting woes on the "Kings" effect, but I don't see how you come to the conclusion he's better when those glaring stats are staring you in the face.

Cojo didn't even play in the playoffs.... that is despite Parker being injured!!! That just tells you how little confidence Pop has about Cojo's abilities.

He wasn't any good and he's gone. Deal with it!

[AFBlue]

Cojo didn't even play in the playoffs.... that is despite Parker being injured!!! That just tells you how little confidence Pop has about Cojo's abilities.

He wasn't any good and he's gone. Deal with it!

CoJo didn't play because Patty was better. Simple as that. But, if CoJo wasn't better than your average third string PG then he wouldn't have signed an above-MLE deal.

:lol deal with it

Deal with what? I've maintained all along that the Spurs having someone the quality of Joseph as their third option was a luxury not a necessity tbqh. McCallum is worse on paper in every statistical category. But that doesn't matter. As long as Parker and Mills are healthy, they won't need him to be CoJo. And if he surprises, great. So I don't really know what there is to deal with tbqh.

[ceperez]

Gotcha. But the question was about depth in general. West, in and of himself, can't plug the holes in the backcourt. CoJo and Beli were big contributors to the bench, so the Spurs have to address those losses somehow. I also think they'll be fine, but not just because of West.

Cojo was non-existent come playoff time. Belli had a couple of moments though.

The hole that needs to be plugged in the nerves of steel shooting that Belli would on occasion exhibit. Who knows... maybe Jimmer is that guy.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

CoJo shot over 50% from the field, over 45% from mid-range and over 36% from 3. While the last number isn't great, here's the comparison to McCallum....less than 44% from the field, less than 33% from mid-range and less than 31% from 3.

You can blame some of his shooting woes on the "Kings" effect, but I don't see how you come to the conclusion he's better when those glaring stats are staring you in the face.
The Kings have had one of the worst offenses in the league for quite awhile now. It's either dump it down to Cousins to shoot a hook shot over 2-3 defenders in the lane, or one of the perimeter guys (such as Gay) would dribble for 17 seconds around the perimeter, dribble in a few feet, step back and jack up a long contested 2 with the clock running out. Their offense closely resembles that in a pick-up game, honestly.

[AFBlue]

Cojo was non-existent come playoff time. Belli had a couple of moments though.

The hole that needs to be plugged in the nerves of steel shooting that Belli would on occasion exhibit. Who knows... maybe Jimmer is that guy.

Playoffs aren't the only time that matters tbqh. The Spurs get so much out of their core in the playoffs by riding their deep bench during the season. CoJo started 14 games and averaged 18MPG. If Parker and Mills are healthy, McCallum won't have to do that. But they will count on him to some degree tbqh.

[AFBlue]

The Kings have had one of the worst offenses in the league for quite awhile now. It's either dump it down to Cousins to shoot a hook shot over 2-3 defenders in the lane, or one of the perimeter guys (such as Gay) would dribble for 17 seconds around the perimeter, dribble in a few feet, step back and jack up a long contested 2 with the clock running out. Their offense closely resembles that in a pick-up game, honestly.

Sometimes the guy dribbling around and jacking up long contested jump shots was McCallum tbqh. Can't say on one hand it was the Kings dysfunction and then credit the dude for how well he runs an offense. Doesn't work like that tbqh.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Sometimes the guy dribbling around and jacking up long contested jump shots was McCallum tbqh. Can't say on one hand it was the Kings dysfunction and then credit the dude for how well he runs an offense. Doesn't work like that tbqh.
McCallum was lights out during the first few games or so of the season when they got off to that hot start (7-2 IIRC?) then they had that loss @ Memphis that they went emo over, Cousins went down and their season went straight into the toilet from there.

McCallum had far less control of the ball than Gay or the other featured perimeter players, tbh. Also, Patty Mills was cut by the Blazers for being the "worst" point guard out of Steve Blake/Sergio Rodriguez/Rudy Fernandez/Mills/ whoever else, so you don't know what you've got until you've got him on a good team IMO.

[AFBlue]

McCallum was lights out during the first few games or so of the season when they got off to that hot start (7-2 IIRC?) then they had that loss @ Memphis that they went emo over, Cousins went down and their season went straight into the toilet from there.

McCallum had far less control of the ball than Gay or the other featured perimeter players, tbh. Also, Patty Mills was cut by the Blazers for being the "worst" point guard out of Steve Blake/Sergio Rodriguez/Rudy Fernandez/Mills/ whoever else, so you don't know what you've got until you've got him on a good team IMO.

That's why I said he was worse than CoJo on paper tbqh. Maybe he surprises and breaks out with the Spurs. And if that happened, I'd be exstatic. I'm just not going to buy this "CoJo was overrated and Ray is easily better" narrative when it's not backed up with facts or stats to-date.

[dweaver99027]

Go look up Patty's stats with the Blazers people...

[UNT Eagles 2016]

That's why I said he was worse than CoJo on paper tbqh. Maybe he surprises and breaks out with the Spurs. And if that happened, I'd be exstatic. I'm just not going to buy this "CoJo was overrated and Ray is easily better" narrative when it's not backed up with facts or stats to-date.
Joseph's efficiency is going to be awful with the Raptors, even though they're an average playoff team (for East standards).

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Go look up Patty's stats with the Blazers people...
Just read them... like 2 and 5 ppg the two years he was there, tbh. Also, shot worse from 3 than any other year except this last year.

[AFBlue]

Joseph's efficiency is going to be awful with the Raptors, even though they're an average playoff team (for East standards).

Agree to disagree.

[2centsworth]

We will miss Beli somewhat, but that's it. Healthy Patty, LA & DW more than offsets the loss of our 3rd string PG, Splitter and Baynes. Silly how much importance people place on the 10th-12th spots. Purely luxuries for old teams, but best players are 30 and under now. New era...

[UNT Eagles 2016]

We will miss Beli somewhat, but that's it. Healthy Patty, LA & DW more than offsets the loss of our 3rd string PG, Splitter and Baynes. Silly how much importance people place on the 10th-12th spots. Purely luxuries for old teams, but best players are 30 and under now. New era...
Is DG a good trade piece at 10m/yr flat?

[dweaver99027]

I know , and that was my point exactly. Leave it to the Spurs to pull diamonds out of their behinds.

[Spurtacular]

We will miss Beli somewhat

That's gonna depend upon how well Jimmer does, imo.

[Brazil]

Gotcha. But the question was about depth in general. West, in and of himself, can't plug the holes in the backcourt. CoJo and Beli were big contributors to the bench, so the Spurs have to address those losses somehow. I also think they'll be fine, but not just because of West.

well thread title is is our bench worst or better than last year ? depth is a part of it but the talent Spurs got for Beli and Cojo is a significant upgrade. Both Beli and cojo were playing limited minutes off the bench, West would be a 30 mn starter in the vast majority of NBA teams... not sure how this is even a question

[AFBlue]

well thread title is is our bench worst or better than last year ? depth is a part of it but the talent Spurs got for Beli and Cojo is a significant upgrade. Both Beli and cojo were playing limited minutes off the bench, West would be a 30 mn starter in the vast majority of NBA teams... not sure how this is even a question

It's a question because West won't play 30 minutes with the Spurs, nor will he spend time at PG or SG. This is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. West is a big leader in the "sum" game, but I don't know if you paint the full picture whether he'll make it better than last year on the whole.

[Brazil]

It's a question because West won't play 30 minutes with the Spurs, nor will he spend time at PG or SG. This is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. West is a big leader in the "sum" game, but I don't know if you paint the full picture whether he'll make it better than last year on the whole.

most minutes off the bench will go to Patty Manu KA JS (?) west bobo and boban... it is yes better on paper than last year.

a healthy patty is already an upgrade vs cojo, west and potentially boban are 10 times worth baynes ayres again I don't see how it is a debate

West won't be play 30 mn but he will play a significant time mostly against bench guys... he is already a solid starter, not sure how he would not be a tremendous bench dude

[maverick1948]

McCallum was lights out during the first few games or so of the season when they got off to that hot start (7-2 IIRC?) then they had that loss @ Memphis that they went emo over, Cousins went down and their season went straight into the toilet from there.

McCallum had far less control of the ball than Gay or the other featured perimeter players, tbh. Also, Patty Mills was cut by the Blazers for being the "worst" point guard out of Steve Blake/Sergio Rodriguez/Rudy Fernandez/Mills/ whoever else, so you don't know what you've got until you've got him on a good team IMO.



Sac was 9-8 at the end of Nov 2014. McCallum was really hot during those 17 games, he played a total of 94 mins. DNP 6 times. About 73 of the mins were in 5 games. And he showed very little.

If you want to make a good comparison for McCallum, try using the months of March and April. He started 26 games. He had much better stats on a sorry ass team. In fact, that may be why the Spurs got him. He delivered a much improved game after Collison was injured. I know he didn't dish out an avg of 7 asst or score 20 pt a game, but he did a great job. His team sucked and had 3 head coaches, but the best help he received came for a player who came at the all star break. ANDRE MILLER. For McCallum, that was like having your on personal coach who also backed you up on the floor. As a starter, he was .452 from the field and .343 from 3 pt.

His numbers were not that much different than Cojo, but he played on a horrible team.

[tmtcsc]

I don't think Jimmer's making the team.

Who didnt see this coming?

[SAGirl]

I am calling it, bench is better. Anderson will turn out better than Marco in everything but 3 pt. shooting, but Marco's shooting will be replaced by Mills who was off or injured last year... overall Mills/Anderson are better than Cojo/Marco. West is overall better than Baynsie, although I liked Baynes. A real revelation is Boban. Ray's toughness on D, and quicktrigger shot are nice as well.

Add it up, better bench.

[sasaint]

2015 Kyle > 2014 Kyle
2015 Patty > 2014 Patty
2015 Manu > 2014 Manu (?)
2015 Boris =/< 2014 Boris
2015 Rocket < 2014 Rocket (< 2013 Rocket)
West > Baynes
Boban >> Ayres
McCallum < Cojo
Simmons << Beli
Butler > Williams

Overall better bench. Shooting is a net loss, but all other skills a net gain.

[SAGirl]

2015 Kyle > 2014 Kyle
2015 Patty > 2014 Patty
2015 Manu > 2014 Manu (?)
2015 Boris =/< 2014 Boris
2015 Rocket < 2014 Rocket (< 2013 Rocket)
West > Baynes
Boban >> Ayres
McCallum < Cojo
Simmons << Beli
Butler > Williams

Overall better bench. Shooting is a net loss, but all other skills a net gain.
I like your thinking, but I am thinking Ray can turn out just as good if not better than Cojo in the Spurs. Cojo was never quite a good fit bc he was so reluctant to shoot from 3. I like Ray's quicktrigger. Cojo could go through some real passive phases if he didn't have the ball to make a play for himself. Ray is really aggressive with his shot if he's open, and in general he's looking to score. Cojo was really tough defensively, but Ray has shown me the same hustle in these few games TBH. In terms of passing, it took Cojo a long time to get going in the system, Ray in a short few weeks seems to be getting a hang of it. I would consider it a draw, but bc Ray is not afraid to shoot the 3, he may end up being a better fit for us TBH.

[tholdren]

Worse

[sasaint]

I like your thinking, but I am thinking Ray can turn out just as good if not better than Cojo in the Spurs. Cojo was never quite a good fit bc he was so reluctant to shoot from 3. I like Ray's quicktrigger. Cojo could go through some real passive phases if he didn't have the ball to make a play for himself. Ray is really aggressive with his shot if he's open, and in general he's looking to score. Cojo was really tough defensively, but Ray has shown me the same hustle in these few games TBH. In terms of passing, it took Cojo a long time to get going in the system, Ray in a short few weeks seems to be getting a hang of it. I would consider it a draw, but bc Ray is not afraid to shoot the 3, he may end up being a better fit for us TBH.

I agree with your assessment of Cojo's offense. He was another score-first PG, but not a shooting PG. But I loved his defensive moxy. In the long run Cojo was not going to contribute much more than he already did. Now, Ray has not shown me the same defensive moxy, although he shows signs. I regard his offensive game as still untested and especially undeveloped in our system. He could end up being a better Spurs-fit at both ends than Cojo, but at this point he isn't. I hope it happens.

[ILoveOranges]

I agree with your assessment of Cojo's offense. He was another score-first PG, but not a shooting PG. But I loved his defensive moxy. In the long run Cojo was not going to contribute much more than he already did. Now, Ray has not shown me the same defensive moxy, although he shows signs. I regard his offensive game as still untested and especially undeveloped in our system. He could end up being a better Spurs-fit at both ends than Cojo, but at this point he isn't. I hope it happens.

McCallum definitely seems pretty raw, but he's young (24) and hardworking. He's such a likable guy, in his interviews, on the court, and seems like a great teammate. He puts his heart out there every game he plays. He might not be a game-ready backup, but under the Spurs development system, I can see him at least being serviceable.

Here's him being a teammate:
https://gfycat.com/TanIncomparableDwarfrabbit

Here's his welcome interview:
http://www.nba.com/spurs/ray-mccallum-welcome-interview

Very difficult not to like the guy, I'm rooting for him!

[sasaint]

McCallum definitely seems pretty raw, but he's young (24) and hardworking. He's such a likable guy, in his interviews, on the court, and seems like a great teammate. He puts his heart out there every game he plays. He might not be a game-ready backup, but under the Spurs development system, I can see him at least being serviceable.

Here's him being a teammate:
https://gfycat.com/TanIncomparableDwarfrabbit

Here's his welcome interview:
http://www.nba.com/spurs/ray-mccallum-welcome-interview

Very difficult not to like the guy, I'm rooting for him!

Absolutely I am rooting for the guy. I personally like all three of our young guys a lot (Kyle, JSimms and Ray). I am absolutely rooting for all three. I hope Kyle is our next Spur-for-life type player. (To clarify: Spur-for-life is not necessarily a superstar, but a solid contributor.) I hope Kyle is even more, and he shows that he could be. Nothing would make me happier than to believe that both Ray and JSimms could join him in that category and be the next generation of the Spurs' core, along with Kawhi, LMA, Danny and even Patty. (Is adding Boban to my wish list being a totally unrealistic, gushing homer?)

[SAGirl]

Absolutely I am rooting for the guy. I personally like all three of our young guys a lot (Kyle, JSimms and Ray). I am absolutely rooting for all three. I hope Kyle is our next Spur-for-life type player. (To clarify: Spur-for-life is not necessarily a superstar, but a solid contributor.) I hope Kyle is even more, and he shows that he could be. Nothing would make me happier than to believe that both Ray and JSimms could join him in that category and be the next generation of the Spurs' core, along with Kawhi, LMA, Danny and even Patty. (Is adding Boban to my wish list being a totally unrealistic, gushing homer?)
I actually like Boban a lot. He's a rook too, but with more experience and has show glimpses of what he can do already. Its enough to get excited for sure. The only guy I am not excited about much anymore is Simms, bc he hasn't shown much TBH. He is the one that is truly questionable. When a young player (in Boban's case, less young, but big men take longer to develop) already shows you something, glimpses of what he can do, even if he's not consistent at the beginning its enough to get excited. Simms at this level has not shown what he can do. Hopefully it is confidence issues and inexperience, but he's the one I am not counting on.

[barbacoataco]

I just don't see how the bench is worse. You've got David West and a healthy Patty Mills, and you've lost Cojo and Marco. Boban is a wild card and won't play that much.

I guess if Diaw gets old and falls off the cliff that would be a big loss. On the other hand Manu looks like he could be in good shape. I think a healthy Patty will take the place of Marco, and Ginobili will be the de-facto backup point guard.

David West is a big addition. He is a starting player for many NBA teams and is the kind of guy who brings a lot of stability. I also think his defense is better than many here realize. His defense has actually gotten better later in his career, and he brings a certain toughness.

Another way to look at it- Manu, Diaw, Kyle and West are all known as high IQ players who make passes and play for the team.

[tholdren]

McCallum was lights out during the first few games or so of the season when they got off to that hot start (7-2 IIRC?) then they had that loss @ Memphis that they went emo over, Cousins went down and their season went straight into the toilet from there.

McCallum had far less control of the ball than Gay or the other featured perimeter players, tbh. Also, Patty Mills was cut by the Blazers for being the "worst" point guard out of Steve Blake/Sergio Rodriguez/Rudy Fernandez/Mills/ whoever else, so you don't know what you've got until you've got him on a good team IMO.

It's all context. Many of these people on here use stats without any context and then get pissed when someone does the same to prove the counter-claim. These "stat experts" are so intelligent they don't understand that you can find a stat to "prove" anything.